The New York Times brings news that is not new to anyone who reads this blog. A movement is rising to revive Christian domination of public and private life, and it is a movement fueled by racists. It is specifically opposed to the separation of church and state, and it seeks to destroy public education, ban abortion, censor teaching about race and racism, as well as gender and sexuality.
This movement was behind Trump’s election and used this irreligious man as their instrument to gain power and control of the Supreme Court.
The article begins:
Three weeks before he won the Republican nomination for Pennsylvania governor, Doug Mastriano stood beside a three-foot-tall painted eagle statue and declared the power of God.
“Any free people in the house here? Did Jesus set you free?” he asked, revving up the dozens before him on a Saturday afternoon at a Gettysburg roadside hotel.
Mr. Mastriano, a state senator, retired Army colonel and prominent figure in former President Donald J. Trump’s futile efforts to overturn the state’s 2020 election results, was addressing a far-right conference that mixed Christian beliefs with conspiracy theories, called Patriots Arise. Instead of focusing on issues like taxes, gas prices or abortion policy, he wove a story about what he saw as the true Christian identity of the nation, and how it was time, together, for Christians to reclaim political power.
The separation of church and state was a “myth,” he said. “In November we are going to take our state back, my God will make it so.”
Mastriano, the Republican candidate for Governor of Pennsylvania, participated in the January 6 Insurrection.
Mr. Mastriano’s ascension in Pennsylvania is perhaps the most prominent example of right-wing candidates for public office who explicitly aim to promote Christian power in America. The religious right has long supported conservative causes, but this current wave seeks more: a nation that actively prioritizes their particular set of Christian beliefs and far-right views and that more openly embraces Christianity as a bedrock identity.
Many dismiss the historic American principle of the separation of church and state. They say they do not advocate a theocracy, but argue for a foundational role for their faith in government. Their rise coincides with significant backing among like-minded grass-roots supporters, especially as some voters and politicians blend their Christian faith with election fraud conspiracy theories, QAnon ideology, gun rights and lingering anger over Covid-related restrictions.
Their presence reveals a fringe pushing into the mainstream.
“The church is supposed to direct the government, the government is not supposed to direct the church,” Representative Lauren Boebert, a Republican representing the western part of Colorado, said recently at Cornerstone Christian Center, a church near Aspen. “I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.” Congregants rose to their feet in applause.
Some states may become inhospitable for non-Christians and for Christians who don’t believe in compelling everyone else to worship their way.
The Founding Fathers most certainly believed in separating church and state. They most certainly wanted a secular, non-religious state. They were well aware of the carnage in Europe that resulted from religious wars and persecution. This new nation was meant to be free of state-sponsored religion.
Those who now seek to obliterate the separation of church and state and to impose their religion on others are rejecting the inheritance and wisdom of the Founding Fathers.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Christian Corporatism or Christian Fascism would be more accurate, since it gains the lyin’s share of its raw political power from the corporate complex, which is more than gratified to manipulate the movement for the useful tool it affords.
Corporatus Christi (Texas)
Religious Nationalism of any sort is terrible. Religion doesn’t unite people, it divides them and makes excuses for one group killing ‘the Other’. If one is going to draw lines and call things inside that line a ‘country’, there is absolutely no place for religious bigotry.
Religious Nationalism is the natural attitude with many large religious.
It’s “my way or the Hellway”
Religious nationalism is national religionism.
Democracy and Christian Nationalism are diametrically opposed. They cannot coexist. You can have one, or you can have the other, but you cannot have both. So, here we are. We now have an Extreme Court dominated by Christian Nationalists who want to destroy democracy by enabling states to create theocracies.
We must counter this by winning the minds of young people away from Christian superstition.
Why? Because, and make no mistake about this, these Christian nationalists are murderous. They are fueled by the same beliefs that led Christians to murder their way through the indigenous peoples of the world–absolute certainty in their beliefs, including their beliefs that those who are not of their persuasion are instruments of Satan to be eliminated in holy wars.
Wherever and whenever Christians have gained religion-based political power, they have murdered their opponents under the banner of their Prince of Peace. Tragically ironic, that.
The Prince of Pieces
Any time people form organized “tribes” based on religious beliefs, persecution of heritics/non-believers is bound to follow.
The only thing that determines who are the persecuted and who are the persecutors is who has the upper hand.
Robert (well and everyone else, eh!) “It’s a funny word, belief.”
For me there is a huge difference between “believing” and “faith believing”. In the first “believing” we expect some sort of connection with the reality that we continuously confront. In “faith believing” there is no connection between that reality and the belief. Anything goes in faith belief, which is why I can faith believe that there is an FSM who lives in Russell’s Teapot and still be (faith) believable.
I didn’t know that Russell’s teapot was the home of the FSM! Thanks for the clarification! Gee, one would expect, say, Pascal’s Pasta Pot or something.
Agreed. However, again, it’s fascinating that the term belief is used to express commitment to notions that one has doubt about, generally. So, the religious case is just the most extreme of these–commitment to notions that are entirely ludicrous and for which there is precisely ZERO evidence.
Well, that’s where the FSM told me to come visit him/her/it. (I didn’t get a chance to find his/her/its genitalia amongst the noodly appendages to determine its/him/her gender.
But thank you for this observation, Duane.
Yours in marinera,
Brother Bob, SFSM, BS, SOB
I think “belief” implies faith.
One accepts a scientific theory based on evidence.
One does not “belueve” it.
Exactly. It would be hilarious if it weren’t so tragic that people actually believe that there is something noble or inspiring about people believing based on “faith”–that is, based on no evidence whatsoever, simply because they would like something to be so. I’ve known five year olds who had exactly the same attitudes about unicorns and superheroes. It’s so childish but it is more common than not, alas, still, today, in the 21st century, and that’s why we can have evil like the rise of fascist Christian nationalism in an advanced country like the U.S. People here (and in Europe) are increasingly throwing off these mind-forged manacles, but I’m terribly afraid that this is not happening quickly enough to save us from the fascist era in America that is to come. There will be hell to pay, and all the milquetoast religionists who clung to “faith” and “belief” will have been complicit in this. They will be among those who allowed religionists to get the upper hand, the grab the levers of power. And whenever they do, they start killing people who don’t buy it. And a lot of those milquetoast folk go along because that’s what they do. They are used to going along with idiocy.
One thing that saddens me enormously about religion is that it provides ludicrous, simplistic, canned answers to profound questions about which speculation is warranted and possible AS LONG AS WE RECOGNIZE IT AS SUCH. Frank Herbert wrote that “Fear is the mind killer.” A brilliant observation. Religion is, too. It’s absolutely dependent on killing independent thought.
Bob,
I’d agree, however it isn’t just ‘Christian superstition’. It the rule of ANY faith-based group. That could as well be Afghanistan, or Israel. Any society that gives a specific priority to a ‘belief’ over inductive reasoning, and backs up that priority with violence.
Agreed. It’s a funny word, belief. It’s self-contradicting. It refers to things that people supposedly think of as true. However, they use it only of things that they actually doubt. If I mean to say that it is certainly the case that there is a beer in the fridge, I say, “There is a beer in the fridge.” If I mean to say, there might be a beer in the fridge, I say, “I believe there’s a beer in the fridge.” This fact is a tell. It gives the whole game away, doesn’t it?
If I am not sure there is a beer in the fridge, I say “I hope there is a beer in the fridge”
And if I am a Supreme Court nominee facing questions about tape, I say “I like beer”
Rape, not tape!
The point is that ironically “belief” is used in situations in which something is in doubt, and the more in doubt it is, the stronger the insistence that it’s true–insistence of a strength up to and including jailing, torturing, and murdering dissenters. Religionists in power have always done this while their coreligionists have stood by and pretended not to notice that it was happening. It Mussolini’s Italy, in Franco’s Spain, in Pinochet’s Chile, today in Putin’s Russia. Tomorrow in the United States.
No, Bob. It’s ‘Today in the United States’.
It’s incredibly ironic that people use the term “belief” of those notions that they consider deepest, most profound, most fundamental, most important, yet the term is used only of ideas that are doubtful. I believe that there is a beer in the fridge means that I am not sure that there is a beer in the fridge but there might be.
All this is breathtakingly obvious, which means that religionists are all about wishful thinking OR have mush for brains OR both. And that’s fine–tra la la la la de da de da–until it isn’t–until the most hardcore among the superstitious seize power again and start disappearing, torturing, and murdering people.
While their coreligionists pretend not to know that this is going on.
Hitler also forged an alliance with Lutheran churches in Germany. Some Chrisitan scholars have noticed the similarities with what is happening in this country and Nazi Germany. Some pastors have condemned Christian nationalism as heresy as Jesus never intended for his gospels to be used for secular, political gain. Americans need to understand how dangerous and radical Christian nationalism is. The only way to stop this steamroll of fanatics is to show up and vote.
Kertzer’s new book about Pope Pius XII, based on newly released Vatican documents from the period, is the definitive description of what the Pope and Italian Catholic clergy did that advanced the fascism of Hitler.
Kertzer identified Pope Pius XI as an opponent of a government model that has multiple parties.
The U.S. National Holocaust Museum listed the book of Susan Zuccotti, an award-wining researcher, as pronouncing, there was no evidence that the Pope was involved in the planning of attempts to save or shelter Jews. Greg, a commenter at this blog, wrote with disdain about the Pope’s apologists who make the false claims about the Pope’s concern for Jews citing how small (far less than 1%) the number out of the total was, even if the Pope did help them. His comment follows Diane’s post, “Andrew Van Wagner”, 7-8-2022.
Agreed, Linda. However religious bigotry comes in a variety of flavors.
The “variety” which includes many that are powerless, is a disingenuous argument aimed at deflecting from the impact of the most powerful one?
Thank you Diane, for exposing & fighting against this insidious, and sometimes overt attempt to inculcate religion into our SECULAR government. History is full of examples where a fervent, extreme minority took power over the majority, or at least caused chaos while trying. The majority may have just been asleep at the wheel or doubtful of the tenacity & fervor of that small minority, or just underestimated their willingness to lie, cheat or use violence to achieve their goals. Once that minority took over & gained power, in order to maintain that power, they almost always needed to use more lies, indoctrination, intimidation, imprisonment & ultimately, violence.
It has been estimated that somewhere between one and five million people died fighting in the ill-fated Crusades. Fanatical devotion to a religion can the course of history.
cx: can change the course of history.
Let us not forget the Spanish inquisition. It was torture and death in the name of God.
Everybody forgets — and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition
Reblogged this on dean ramser.
Actually the framers did not have to look as far away as Europe to understand the threat, nor even as far back as Plymouth Colony . From the 1840s to early 70s Christian fundamentalist of one sect or another ripped the Anglican Church apart and then each other, from the Pulpit. Christian demagogues whipping up revivals as, perhaps more unhinged than anything today. Some of them evolving into the American Christian sects we have today. Enough of the framers(certainly not all ) understood that the only way to have freedom of religion was to have freedom from any particular religion thus a Wall of separation.
Jefferson- In every age in every country, the priest aligns with the despot.
Except for Martin Luther, Calvin, Tynsdale, etc. etc. etc. Read deeper into history, my friend.
Great quote.
And, it was Jefferson who gave Thomas Paine shelter after he almost lost his head in France. If you want to know Paine’s take on religion, read ‘The Rights of Man’. Both Jefferson and Paine understood the divisive nature of religion. Paine hated slavery, and I’d like to think that Jefferson did as well, but was forced into a ‘system’ that he couldn’t escape.
Easy to look back and criticize, but not so easy to live in the present.
“My friend”, Mary, read Fox News, 7-11-2022, “Catholic Vote Launches $3 Mil Midterm Ad Campaign Aimed at Kicking Catholic Democrats Out of Office…Catholics are at the center of the new political era”
Since my comment quoted Jefferson, you’ll have to get in a time machine, Mary, to tell him he’s wrong. I’ll relish it when he laughs in your face.
Jefferson hated slavery all the say go the bank.
And Paine was responsible for the words “All men are created equal” in the Declaration of Independence.
Ms Thompson, here’s your Martin Luther:
“What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews,” asked Luther. And he answered,
“First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …”
“Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.”
“Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.”
“Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …”
“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …”
“Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …”
“Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …”
Basically, he outlined what later was the entire Nazi program.
Bob, thank you for bringing up the common argument against Luther. Unfortunately, at the end of his life, Luther was in decline, both physically and mentally. His writings, which had once been brilliant turned ugly, like the scurrilous tract you quote, “On the Jews and Their Lies,” (1543) which totally contradicted a previous tract that defended the Jews called, “That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew,” (1523).
For centuries, Europe ran red with the blood of Christian factions killing one another in the name of reformation and counterreformation–the stuff that led Swift to invent the big-endians versus the little-endians.
But given Luther’s anti-Semitism and the many other occasions on which he countenanced violence, I would hardly hold him up as some sort of hero. And his fundamental idea–salvation via grace–is utterly idiotic. The ultimate good guy, God, chooses arbitrarily whether you will be saved or not, and this has nothing to do with your merit. One of the stupider of a lot of stupid theological ideas, up there with Original Sin (Augustine’s explanation for why he had such a thing for the brothels, lol).
He wasn’t the first and he won’t be the last guy who started out as a reformer, got high on his own supply, and end up wading through blood.
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2022/05/15/why-is-christianity-so-weird/
There’s no defending Martin Luther on this. It’s like saying, “You are emphasizing his anti-Semitism but totally ignoring the plays he wrote.” Sorry. He was a monster.
It’s like saying of Goebbels, “You are emphasizing his anti-Semitism but totally ignoring the plays he wrote.” Sorry. He was a monster.
On this point I have to agree with Luther:
“All the articles of our Christian faith, which God has revealed to us in His Word, are in presence of reason sheerly impossible, absurd, and false.” –Martin Luther
That is, the whole Nazi program prior to the Wannsee Conference.
That may be, Bob.
But Martin Luthers’s Ninety Five Feces is a classic of scatological literature.
Right up there with Klaus Judie’s Field Guide to Animal Tracks which also probably has at least 95 drawings of the Feces of various animals.
Olaus Murie!
Not sure who Klaus Judie even is
I always wondered how Martin Luther mznaged go nail all those feces to the Church door.. he just have dried them out first.
oops: 1740s not 1840s
Don’t worry, no one cares about facts anymore.
GregB– lol 😀 !
Joel, thanks for that correction. I was still scratching my head. Very interesting, I shall have to read up on that period in development of American churches.
bethree5
“American Demagogue” J. D. Dickey
Covers the first Great Awakening and the various divisions created by various religious leaders. As hostile as many were to each other most realized that putting the power of the state into the fray would not be in their best interests.
Dan Brown made millions off his Da Vinci Code version of Opus Dei.
They are real and they are zealots. Power-hungry, messianic mad-hatters.
Justices Barrett, Roberts, Thomas, Kavanaugh and Alito all belong to/are close to members of Opus Dei. Amy B. was raised in the companion People of Praise Cult.
Both her parents were high-ranking members.
These groups are backed by Big Money and Jesus is definitely NOT the reason for their season.
Bought & Paid For Fanatic Ideologues are trained to play the long game. It is the same with their partners-in-crime, The Federalist Society.
Pat Cipollone is one of many knee-deep in this fascist filth.
A personal story about growing up in Spain’s Franco Fascist Friendly is here:
View at Medium.com
Or Watch Netflix The Family: It’s Not About Faith. It’s About POWER by Jeff Sharlet.
Kathy
Thanks for writing your comment. Thirty percent of Catholic schools are single sex.
How many Catholic schools require girls to wear skirts, no pants? It’s like a time period before 1970.
Yesterday pro-choice protests shut down an interstate in St Louis Missouri
The restaurant that Kavanaugh fled was reportedly Morton’s. It’s owned by the conglomerate, Landry’s. Media said, lots of people
who judged Morton’s response to protesters as offensive, made fake reservations at the restaurant. I’ll content myself with never going to a Landry’s restaurant.
And, when the feedback function at their website resumes, I’ll make comment.
Bravo!!!
Morton’s (the restaurant Leonard Leo’s pick for SCOTUS fled from) has found itself with a lot of fake reservations.
Perhaps they should just seat the people standing in line at their front door for awhile.
It won’t be me.
The conglomerate, Landry, owns Morton’s. I won’t be going to any of their restaurants.
Don’t know Landry, or Morton’s, for that matter. And, they did allow Kavanaugh to place a reservation, after all, and help him ‘escape’. I probably wouldn’t line up, either.
‘The separation of church and state was a “myth,” he said. “In November we are going to take our state back, my God will make it so.”’
The NY Times made a mistake when they quoted that false prophet by capitalizing the word for “God”. It should have been lower case: “god”.
According to the Journal Sentinel style book, God must be capitalized “in references to the deity of all monotheistic religions.” The lowercase “god” is only used in reference to gods and goddesses of polytheistic religions.
The Bible warns us about the Doug Mastrianos of the world, and they do not serve Him but him.
Matthew 7:15
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”
This isn’t the only passage that offers this warning. There are many of them.
Indeed, Lloyd.
It goes back even further. Note that in the ‘First Commandment’, the ‘God’ said, ‘I am the Lord (odd) THY god, and thou shall not put any gods before ME’.
This was a clear admission by ‘god’ that there were other gods, and that this one was particularly narcissistic (a bit insecure).
But, much of this relies upon the ‘translation’ of documents 2,000 years old, or more. The ‘King James’ version was written by people who couldn’t read Greek, and, so, they relied upon the Latin translation. As any kid knows who played the game of ‘telephone’, as you go down the line, the message gets garbled.
2 books for you.
First, ‘The New Testament’ by David Bently Hart. This guy can read Greek and, more importantly, studied the ancient language as it was used at the time most of the New Testament was first put to paper.
Secondly, The Decline of Language in the Age of English. (I think). Written by a Japanese lady (actually a compilation of some of her papers). I can’t find it, and I can’t search before I post this. But, this lady hits the nail on the head.
The “Christian Nationalists”‘ seem to be poking their ravenous jaws right out the front of those sheepy masks.
Yes. They now control what has become, ipso facto, an Extreme Court, and they intend to use this to remake the United States into a loose confederation of small state theocracies.
I agree with most of the comments and the criticisms of religious influences causing so many wars & deaths over the centuries or millennia, but my earlier comment about fervent, angry minorities overwhelming more passive & peaceful majorities, wasn’t only aimed at religious based examples. Just look at strongmen in various countries since the 1920’s, who were able to gain power over their countries mostly through force or coups, but occasionally through elections. Think of Mussolini, Hitler, Salazar (Portugal) & Franco (Spain) in Europe in the 1920’s & 30’s, along with Chile, Argentina, Guatemala, El Salvador, Cuba, Haiti, Iran, and many African nations in the 70’s & 80’s. Most were forceful takeovers by a smaller group of more fervent, aggressive, violent leaders who took power over a more peaceful, docile population.
That reminds me of a bit of Spanish history that many people don’t know about. During the Middle (Dark) Ages, while most of Europe was suffering through the ignorance & isolation of closed-up kingdoms & societies of those times, in Spain for a short while, all three of the major religions–Christianity, Judaism & Islam–lived in harmony together, sharing & advancing knowledge in mathematics, philosophy, Classical Rome & Greece, astronomy, engineering, etc. But at a certain point, the fanatics emerged from the Christians & Muslims, who were small minorities of those religions, but were very aggressive & fervent in their beliefs that the other side was unworthy to be given equal status or to be tolerated with their beliefs–so what happened? Those more aggressive & violent groups started conflicts & wars which led to expulsions, imprisonments, wars & deaths, and eventually blew up the peaceful sharing of cultures & ideas. Sound familiar???
“During the Middle (Dark) Ages, while most of Europe was suffering through the ignorance & isolation of closed-up kingdoms & societies of those times, in Spain for a short while, all three of the major religions–Christianity, Judaism & Islam–lived in harmony together. . . ”
Minor but I think important, Spain was not a country until the unification of Castille and Aragon kingdoms which occurred simultaneously with the Conquista of the Americas and the Inquisition. I’d call the geographical area the Iberian Peninsula.
Fox News, 7-11-2022
“Catholic Vote Launches $3 Mil. Midterm Ad Campaign Aimed at Kicking Catholic Dems Out of Office”.
‘Catholic Vote’ is a weird group. They send me emails and it appears there’s nothing ‘catholic’ or even ‘christian’ about them. I’m wondering who funds this facade.
Don’t know. But, a question for your speculation, do you think the 37% of White Catholics who attend church regularly and didn’t vote for Trump in 2020 will have a sense that they should raise $3 mil. to offset Catholic Vote’s campaign or, is the info. irrelevant to them?
I’d say its irrelevant. By emphasizing money, it only enforces the idea that you can vote with your wallet. As a result, billionaires will always win. We need a different ethic.
The group acknowledges the authority of the magisterium while it is independent of the church. It’s a project of Fidelis.
Americans will be required to speak Latin in the new theocracy.
Daedalus You write: “‘Catholic Vote’ is a weird group. They send me emails and it appears there’s nothing ‘catholic’ or even ‘christian’ about them. I’m wondering who funds this facade.”
I thought so too and have the same question. But don’t you know? It’s not about your question. It’s about Linda’s bias (see her note).
And BTW, who ever thought that everyone agreed with one another, even about Church doctrine, is living in a fairyland. CBK
Daedalus,
Thank you for your answer to my question.
I’m certain that you understand, but, evidently, there are those who don’t. “All” is 100%. Any percentage less than 100% is not “all”.
Catherine, CBK, Mary Catherine, or whatever you go by, it is a blatant lie when you repeatedly say I am anti-Catholic. You are very clear, but you choose to tar me. Any person in this nation who cares about democracy is opposed to the right wing politicking of the Catholic Church. There is ample evidence that mainstream media covers for the Catholic church’s Republican support, while they publish anti-evangelical protestant stories. The fact that we were all gobsmacked by Roe’s overturn is one example of the evidence.
Linda I’m busy brushing up on my Latin. CBK
Linda BTW, Do I really “tar” you? I exposed only some of the mischaracterizations, bad logic, cherry-picking, witch-hunting, and obsessive din that I see in your notes. In that sense, don’t kill the messenger . . . you tar yourself.
Also BTW, you need to reread my notes to you. Apparently, you blank out when I say I disagree with the overreaching politics of the Church hierarchy. It’s an unholy alliance between the right-wing churches, including the Catholic hierarchy, and the oligarchs in this country right as they attack democracy now and I am “for” exposing it to the public, even from you.
Like Daedalus, however, and for instance, with the Catholic Vote group you mentioned, I see nothing either Catholic or Christian in their (or many other groups’) intentions (to get rid of D-Catholics in government) or in their rhetoric (I looked them up). It raises the question of “who’s money is behind it?” I “smell” Koch et al, Betsy, or the even Putin’s Russia and their interest in discord. If I have time, I’ll put on my Jane Meyer hat and do some research.
Instead of going with his question, however, all you say; “I don’t know” and then go on with your anti-Catholic smearing. Rather than “taring” I rather think, via plenty of other evidence, that I am exposing an anti-Catholic zealot who attaches their obsession to a RIGHT IDEA and rides it into the ground.
So here again, I have “taken the bait” that Diane talks about. I do think she also asked you awhile back to spend your energy on other sources of the problem? What are we to do? (I’ll probably just leave the field with the hope others will understand what I have been saying.) CBK
AKA
For the record- every iota of writing from you (Catherine, Mary Catherine, CBK or whatever AKA that you use to post here), should be viewed through the lens of your diatribes targeting me. None of your bogus charges have any merit whatsoever. I don’t read the rants of someone like AKA and if anyone else does, categorize it as perverse entertainment.
Following the generalized advice of experts about how to respond to people like AKA, each AKA post against me will be followed by my reactive post until Diane chooses to say AKA is picked on and commenters should move on.
I don’t like to waste my time on this tit for tat but, as the experts indicate, restraint leads to a person like AKA pushing harder. I’ve informed Diane, through prior comments at this blog that I avoid responding to AKA so that it reduces her reading time. There’s a new approach for me, based on the warning of experts in dealing with people like AKA, “they push you to the limits of what you can tolerate emotionally.” AKA , the threshold for my emotional tolerance is so high, you can’t reach it.
The word, “zealot,” popped out in your paragraph as I glanced forward to other comments. Greg called you a zealot on July 10.
So, you’re now employing the tactics of the right wing. The gimmick is to take a charge made against you and to lob it back i.e. a lazy attempt at a pretense that what you are is the same as what your opposition is.
My comment went into moderation a 2:51 July 12
None in moderation
Linda Go attend a Catholic church, even a mainline protestant one, maybe for a couple of times, or join a group there for awhile; and then maybe you might expand your understanding beyond your present view. Your contempt bleeds through every note you write that has the term “Catholic” or “religious” in it; and if it’s not about either, you make it so. It must be hard to live with that kind of hate swirling around in one’s interior life. CBK
CBK
I attended a church for decades and have very fond memories of it. My mainstream protestant church rotated ministers, including women pastors. My church didn’t debase its members by telling them they were all sinners. Not one of the ministers preyed on the children of the church so, members weren’t tested in terms of their willingness to turn a blind eye. My church thought birth control was perfectly fine because they weren’t into punishing women for having sex. My church ‘s congregants sent their kids to public schools where they trusted the teachers would expand the students’ horizons. With only 5% of Blacks nationally being Catholic, the local Catholic school had no Black kids enrolled while the public junior high and high school had a 30% Black enrollment.
The fact that you pepper your comments to me with use of the word, blood, is that a religious fetish thing evoking a cleansing of the demons that you believe “all sinners” have? Keep your bizarre beliefs to yourself.
When you point your finger at me about hate, there are 4 of them pointing back at you.
Your Church’s beliefs don’t have a thing to do with what I write about and you know it. You are protecting the church’s politicking by deflecting away from what they do in Wash. D.C. and in state Capitols in pursuit of a theocracy that takes away Americans’ rights.
It’s every person’s DUTY to stop the advance of fascism in the U.S.
In point of fact, 90+% of the people at this blog would fight fascism from wherever it originated, including the attacks from the Catholic Church and/or its affiliated organizations. My comments have everything to do with trying to preserve separation of church and state. Beginning at least at the time of Scalia and Weyrich, right wing Catholics have been an enemy of democracy.
The Catholic Church has a record of being dangerous to women and children’s physical health, their minds and it’s dangerous to women’s rights when it subjugates man’s law. The Church’s leaders brag about overt discrimination against women attributing their practices to Christ. (Jesus chose only men to lead his church. It’s the one and only true church.) The church covered up for pedophile priests so that they could victimize more children. All the while the parishioners chose to ignore it just like similar church-goers ignored the German atrocities against Jews. (The proof of the latter is in Kertzer’s definitive book about Pope Pius XII.) The Kamloops atrocities reflect the usual pattern of the Church when wrongdoing is uncovered. Unless, there is public outcry, they either continue doing evil things or they cover them up. I use this forum to shine a spotlight on the politicking of organizations like Knights of Columbus, whose shrine invited Trump for a photo op and Catholic Vote which praises Orban and spends millions to defeat women politicians who are Democrats.
A woman of child-bearing ages who plans to go to a Catholic hospital
should read about the response of St. Luke’s in Kansas City to state law after Roe’s overturn before she makes the decision.
Mike Pence doesn’t deserve the Medal of Freedom that Cipollone says he does. The Medal of Freedom should go people who didn’t enable Trump throughout his democracy-crushing tenure. Both Pence and Cipollone were raised Catholic and they cite religion as the basis for their right wing beliefs.
This is a comment that wouldn’t appear in the thread if CBK would stop attacking me. I reread this comment and I realize that once again
I’ve failed to do what the experts say to do. My comment should have called CBK a bold-faced liar for writing what she does about me.
Linda A perfect life, so glad to hear it. CBK
Linda BTW, if you understood anything about my criticism of your notes, you wouldn’t have written what you did in the last one.
Further, if you weren’t constantly pushing through little windows in my and others’ notes to pretend your “issues” are relevant, but really to spew out your obsessiveness on the discourse, or to repeat what I have already said I agree with in many cases (which is the point you continually overlook), you wouldn’t have to use the bad logic, cherry-picking, and McCarthy-style witch-hunting tactics to make your arguments.
Also, you’ll be glad to hear that, while I will still subscribe to Diane’s blog, I will not be reading or participating in any of the responses. I’ve been called away to more informative, less redundant, and much more reasonable arguments–not in all, just yours. Seeing “Catholic” come through those little windows and in almost every note makes for dull reading. You’ve made “Catholic” into a cliche.
And I didn’t finish your note because they have become sleep inducing, and I need to go a wash my hair anyway. I’ll get back to it when I need to go to sleep or when I have run out of reading material. CBK
AKA-
My record over the years that I’ve written at this blog shows abundant evidence that having the last word in a heated discussion is not part of my personality profile. Check your discussions with me and note, having the last word, ticks the box for who you are.
I recognize what a discussion between small people looks like. Trump’s behavior has led all thinking people to reexamine how to deal with people who are deficient in character. Trump makes everyone he engages with look small. Those who interact with him decide between two responses (1) return his pettiness, losing reputation or (2) show restraint and he escalates. The mental health experts who give advice, say the latter path doesn’t work which leaves only the first choice.
One commenter opened my eyes. He repeatedly stepped up to defend me which I appreciated and commented about at the time. I’ve learned more and I’ve got my footing. I stand up for myself now and your response and my replies create a pattern where we both look small. So, be it.
No more tax exemptions for religion’s political grifters.
Ain’t that the truth! I now live in Tennessee, and I’ve never seen so many ‘preachers’ (per capita). Only one reason for that…grift.
It’s the great American tradition. The traveling grifter/flim-flam man (or woman). And yeah, it’s usually either salvation or fake cures that are being sold, often a little of both. America has been a rich mine of these cons and has generated literally thousands of new Christian religious movements, each with its con at the top raking in the dough and the adulation and the sexual services.
Come over to Warren County, MO to probably find a higher preacher per capita ratio. When we moved out here my son commented on how many churches there were.
The James Webb telescope is beginning to generate its first public images. It is much more powerful than Hubble taking just a few hours of exposure to achieve what takes Hubble two weeks. It peers billions of years into the past. And like all telescopes before it, it has detected no God in the observable universe. So that settles it right?
The astrophysicist Alan Guth, a superstar in the field because of his work on Inflation Theory, makes the claim in his book The Inflationary Universe, that a sufficiently technologically advanced species could create a new (separate) universe. The Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom has put forward, as you probably know, the theory that we are living in a simulation of their past created by our own advanced ancestors. These are at least plausible hypotheses, though there is no sufficient warrant, I think, for adopting either. Nonetheless, they show that it is POSSIBLE that some characteristics that have traditionally been attributed to gods might be true of some entities in the universe or multiverse.
I think it doubtless the case that there are many things about the universe that we simply don’t have the cognitive and perceptual tools to perceive and understand, and there are doubtless things that we shall discover that will be truly mind-blowing and surprising. But one thing is, I think, without doubt: NONE OF THE SURVIVING ANCIENT SYSTEMS OF SUPERSTITION THAT GO BY THE NAME OF RELIGIONS ARE EVEN REMOTELY TRUE OR PLAUSIBLE. They are idiotic, childish. They CLEARLY reflect the level of understanding of morality and of the physical world that half savages had thousands of years ago, and they persist only because they are rationalized (ridiculously so) and taught to kids when they are too young to recognize what silly nonsense from the infancy of our civilization they are.
“NONE OF THE SURVIVING ANCIENT SYSTEMS OF SUPERSTITION THAT GO BY THE NAME OF RELIGIONS ARE EVEN REMOTELY TRUE OR PLAUSIBLE.”
Bingo, bango, boingo. We have a winner. Give that nice elderly gentleman a Kewpie doll!
Re simulated universe.
William Gates (the physicist, not the nitwit billionaire) thinks he has seen “error correcting codes” in the fundamental equations of string theory.
But i don’t pretend to understand a word he says so can’t say either way.
So, for example, when Genesis hauls off with the notion that in the beginning God separated the waters above from the waters below, this is not symbolic or metaphorically. It’s the literal cosmology that was believed in not only by the Hebrews but by many other peoples of the ancient Middle East. They thought that the heavens were a dome, the firmament, that separated off the waters of heaven, above, from the earth and the waters below. The word for “the deep” in the Hebrew is cognate with the name of the primordial sea goddess, Tiamat, worshipped by various Mesopotamian peoples. The texts of the Bible and other religions are artifacts of their times, reflecting the primitive beliefs of ancient peoples. It’s mind-blowing to me that people take this stuff at all seriously anymore except as historical artifact and literature, like any other ancient mythological system.
cx: this is not symbolic or metaphorical
Adults. With degrees from universities. Living in advanced technological societies. Still believe this stuff. In the 21st century.
That’s just astonishing. And awful. And speaks very poorly of us.
For people who will believe such nonsense will believe anything. Surely, if they can believe this stuff, there is nothing so crazy or silly or backward (thousands of years backward) that they won’t believe it.
LOL!! To ‘believers’, nothing is ever settled.
I’ve often thought of daring one of them to stick their foot out so I could drop a concrete block on it, and asking them to pray, really hard, to keep the block from falling. They could even ask their entire congregation to pray. Then, let me drop the block without moving their foot, and see what happens. So far, no takers.
Theists are like economists. Every time they are wrong, they come up with an excuse.
A generalized snapshot of what the U.S. House will look like, given Catholic Vote’s success in its campaign to oust Catholic Democrats- of the current about 120 women in the House, 25 will be gone.
A characteristic of fascism is the marginalization of women. The Catholic Church has a long history of it.
And these people are afraid of Sharia Law?
Edward Hauck Good point about Sharia Law. It becomes a matter of which religion, group, oligarch, complainant, has more power in the moment (social, political, financial).
I was in Oklahoma over 20 years ago where we passed a protestant church (cannot remember which). They were called “All Souls” something. However, someone had crossed out “all” and replaced it with “some.” It was a time when “gays” were beginning to speak out. Some poetic clarity in the problem there, I thought, and a precursor to today.
If we read any history, however, like Jefferson (who wrote his own Bible), we will understand that all religious groups, at some point, and like all other organizations and even families, undergo change, divisions, and even split-aways, and reformations. Books are written about such things. So, inner-church divisions are not a new phenomenon, and certainly not in the Catholic Church where, as with Judaism and Islam (and others), as a world-wide institution, they have a much longer history than the protestants today. (To be “protestant” was to leave the Roman Catholic Church).
BTW, “a characteristic of fascism” is to use whatever church or group that happens to have some power and has a good number of people. Historically, it’s the fascist, and not the Church, who comes to power and tries to keep it by whatever means.
Here are some snips from Hannah Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism” CBK
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.”
“Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it.”
“like Jefferson (who wrote his own Bible)”
Actually, from my understanding, he performed the first cut and paste in putting together the “Jefferson Bible”. “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, was completed in 1820 by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson’s condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine.” (from wiki)
Hi Duane I was fascinated when we went over all this at Georgetown . . . we students took a 5-mile walk with books in hands down the old (real) canal going to the mountains and everyone read passages from different history texts. Jefferson’s letter to his nephew is also a most memorable read. CBK
I wonder if Jefferson’s Bible is included in the Florida history curriculum?
Duane “Jefferson who?” CBK
Georgetown admitted its first Black students in the 1960’s. The school’s historian described it in an article that said it wasn’t the university’s tradition to include them. The historian attributed it to prejudice. The hiring of Ilya Shapiro in 2022, was that a continuation of tradition?
Linda Grabbing at straws again, I see. I loved going to Georgetown. In my classes, I met scientists who worked at the Pentagon coming over the Potomac for a liberal education they said they missed in their earlier education . . . great discussions. And many of the teachers were adults already working in the high-level professions around the D.C. Capitol area.
It’s where I met Alexis de Tocqueville, Hannah Arendt’s political work, Uncle Walt, philosophy, history, and a load of other wonderful writers. I can remember nothing ever said about Catholicism as such, though that doesn’t matter to me at all. It was a wonderful liberal studies program.
And BTW, there is a Presbyterian Church I went to when I was in Farmville, Virginia, whose pastor, back in the mid1800’s, sold slaves to get money for the founding of the Church. I take from that, and your note about GTU that, guess what! SXXT Happens, history is full of such events, and change is slow. And people who don’t have a history, don’t have to answer to it in the way others do. No one left the church on account of it, that I know of. I taught at the college there in Farmville for around 5 years; and the people in that church were wonderful, both black and white. The graciousness of black people in such situations has always astounded me.
When I left, the college there where I worked (Longwood) was involved in a long-term project to collect/record oral stories from all sides of the black-white issue as Farmville happened to be the home of Moton School (now a national historical site) where one of the protests in the early-50’s became nationally known against school segregation and was joined in the Brown vs Board of Education proceedings. Church members of every stripe were also involved.
So, in that context, I say to your note about GTU, ho hum so what. In this context on this site with your almost every-note-about-those-bad-Catholics, I consider it just another attempt at smearing. CBK
Think you’re forgetting about the ‘Dark Ages’ in Europe. No facists, only church and royalty.
Daedalus Medieval Europe: “No fascists . . . just church and royalty.”
Exactly that. As a broad structural movement, over time church and royalty (with its bloodlines) differentiated and cultures became more secular as “states,” and now with their armies as receded also from church and royalty.
To watch the moments in time as the differentiations occurred, particularly in England and Europe, is a fascinating part of history. (I taught a course on this.) But the separation, along with the scientific revolution, public literacy, etc., left a political power vacuum from which both democracies and fascist dictators emerged, and as the kingships’ and the churches’ powers receded.
It’s a long, complex, and arduous story, but yes . . . no fascists early on, and the same general movements is different for different regions of the world. CBK
AKA, CBK.
I presume if I answer your attack, my comment will go to moderation
and never come out.
Linda What are you talking about? (moderation?) CBK
CBK, AKA Catherine, Mary Catherine-
While sometimes the culprit in the comment’s disappearance is “moderation”, on other occasions, the replies I write to defend myself against your attacks evaporate. ( I’ve seen at least one comment that I think you wrote as self-revelation, unrelated to me, that appeared in a thread briefly then disappeared, perhaps a TMI moment?)
In contrast to the selective inclusion of my comments, your comments that include personal insults against me have a history of relentless appearance.
Media articles written by the experts advise, in situations like this, the only effective method of response is to match harshness and frequency. Restraint against insults will only provoke escalation, as the record shows at this blog when you write about me.
You may have experiences that make you think your deflection will work to lessen or eliminate my presentation of evidence of right wing Catholic politicking. You’re wrong.
Claims of you being picked on are gaslighting. The record makes that clear.
Cut it out, you two!
Linda I think you might want to grasp the difference between criticism of the content of your notes and insults. That makes us impervious to improvement. CBK
AKA-
More gaslighting. The record makes it clear that I criticize the politicking of the Catholic Church. You call me names, insult me by saying I lack knowledge, etc. My comments up until I changed my approach stand as testimony to the truth. I avoided responding to you at a personal level before because this type of interchange makes the blog comment thread look small. You were relentless while I showed restraint. It led to your escalation.
My record shows I have let you have the last word on numerous occasions . Having to have the last word ticks one more box about you.
Excellent point, Mr. Hauck.
Years ago, when the U.S. was supporting insurgents in Afghanistan against the invading Russians, Ronald Reagan gave a speech in which he called the Afghan defenders “freedom fighters. . . . good, god-fearing people just like us.”
Who was he talking about? Well, we know them now as the Taliban. And one of their rising young stars, at the time, was Osama bin Laden.
My point is that there never was much difference between the beliefs of Reagan and his ilk and the beliefs of the Taliban. We have our Christian fundamentalist Taliban right here in the good ole U.S.A., and several of the Mullahs now constitute the majority on the new Extreme Court.
As anyone should be. Xtian theocracy = Sharia Law. Same difference. Even have the same god, profits. . . and even prophets.