President Biden has repeatedly tried to reduce the debt that college students incurred and that remains a financial burden for years after they finish college. Republicans have adamantly opposed any effort to relieve millions of students of their college debt, which some have been paying off for decades.
I can’t help but remember my visit to Finland, where I learned that all education, at every level, is tuition-free. How is this possible, I asked. I was told that education is a human right, and no one should pay for a human right. From an economic point of view, the entire nation benefits when more people get a college education. Yet over the past few decades, state governments have reduced their support of public higher education, shifting the burden to individual students.
Heather Cox Richardson wrote about the political dimensions of the student debt issue:
Rising costs of college and cuts to government support for education mean that more than 45 million people across the country owe more than $1.6 trillion in federal loans, an amount equal to the size of the Australian economy. That debt absorbs money people at the lower end of the economic scale would otherwise invest in homes, consumer goods, and so on, and the Biden administration has made it a priority to relieve some of that debt.
When she was the California attorney general, Vice President Kamala Harris took on predatory for-profit colleges and won $1 billion for defrauded veterans and students, and when he ran for office, Biden promised to forgive federal student debt for those earning less than $125,000.
Since the Supreme Court on June 30, 2023, rejected the administration’s plan to forgive more than $400 billion in student debt borrowed through government programs, the administration has turned to other approaches.
In April it began to fix the administrative errors that had kept borrowers from receiving relief through income-driven repayment plans and the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program under which they borrowed the money. Those plans were always intended to offer a way to eliminate student debt, but the Government Accountability Office in 2022 found that poor record keeping meant that that promise had not been honored. On July 14 the administration announced that fixes to those programs would relieve more than 800,000 borrowers of more than $39 billion in student debt.
At the time, Biden did not mince words. “Republican lawmakers—who had no problem with the government forgiving millions of dollars of their own business loans—have tried everything they can to stop me from providing relief to hardworking Americans. Some are even objecting to the actions we announced today, which follows through on relief borrowers were promised, but never given, even when they had been making payments for decades. The hypocrisy is stunning, and the disregard for working and middle-class families is outrageous.”
Since then, the administration has provided relief to others caught in the system as well, including relief of $45.7 billion for 662,000 public service workers, $10.5 billion for 491,000 borrowers with a total and permanent disability, and $22 billion for nearly 1.3 million borrowers who were cheated by their schools, saw their schools close, or are covered by a related court settlement.
Today the administration released the Saving on a Valuable Education (SAVE) plan, a new repayment plan to bring order and relief to federal student borrowers. It is an income-driven repayment plan that is based on a borrower’s income and family size rather than their loan balance, prevents the balance from growing because of unpaid interest, and forgives the remaining balance after a number of years. “The benefits of the SAVE plan will be particularly critical for low- and middle-income borrowers, community college students, and borrowers who work in public service,” the White House said.
Relieving student debt helps those at the lower end of the economy, which will boost economic growth, but there is also a political payoff in these efforts for the administration. As Democratic strategist and pollster Celinda Lake and documentary filmmaker Mac Heller pointed out in the Washington Post in July, in the eight years between the 2016 and 2024 elections, 32 million Americans have become eligible to vote. In the same eight years, as many as 20 million older voters have died.
Lake and Heller note that younger Americans are focused on issues, rather than individuals, and skew progressive (prompting some Republicans to talk about raising the voting age to 25). Fulfilling a campaign promise that overwhelmingly benefits those under 50—parents as well as students—is good politics, blending in with the members of Gen Z (the generation born between the mid to late 1990s and early 2010s) forming political PACs of their own and running for office.

I’m a teacher in NYC. Was at first excited about the SAVE plan. Called my loan people. Due to my NYC public school salary, I will pay $670 month under this SAVE plan vs. $370 under the standard plan. I’m married, husband on SS, disabled child. Median NYC rent is $2256 for 2 bedroom. Forget about affording a home anywhere within a 2 hour one-way commute. The problem with these hyped programs is they don’t factor in an area’s cost of living.
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” I will pay $670 month under this SAVE plan vs. $370 under the standard plan.”
Is there a place on the Web where one can calculate these things?
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From cnbc: The average monthly rent in July was $5,588, up 9% over last year and marking a new record. Median rent, at $4,400 per month, also hit a new record, along with price per square foot of $84.74, according to a report from Miller Samuel and Douglas Elliman.
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Jersey Joe, this is a big country with wide variation in cost of living. Where is the “average monthly rent $5,588”? I can’t believe that is a national average.
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NYC. The median rent figure that the original commenter gave seems extremely low.
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For NYC. Not for the nation.
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That cnbc excerpt was for Manhattan. I thought RL’s figures for NYC were too low.
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My God, where are these rents? NYC?
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Until they fix the issues that allow the banks to offer HUGE loans for college education, the situation will never go away. The Colleges knew they could then raise their tuition/rates/fees AND their admission #’s and they have made bank$$$$ doing so. Add to this the fact that EVERY child MUST to go to college (NCLB, RTtT) to succeed in life and a whole new banking industry was created. All of this was enacted while the Obama Administration was bailing out the banks….for faulty loans on housing!
The Banks need major regulation! They will not loose money! They will pass along the “write-off” on student loan debt to the public in way of hidden fees and service charges. Until some administration is willing to give the banking industry a little more than a slap on the wrist for bad behavior, we will be stuck with this mess.
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“The Banks need major regulation! ”
Amen.
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If Biden can manage to offer some relief to the needier indebted young people, it may help to get the young voters that Democrats need out in 2024. It could also help stimulate the economy somewhat. It’s a winning proposition.
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As long as Republicans have majorities anywhere, state or federal, they will block anything that helps the working class. Traitor Trump’s tax cuts for the working class are set to expire in the next few years. The tax cuts the traitor gave to the wealthy class, he was born into and cheats and lies to stay in, will not go away.
Likewise, for loans of any kind, most of the interest paid on those loans flows into the pockets of the same wealthy class, increasing their wealth, their power, and their ability to pollute more than anyone else on the plant.
For instance, Jeff Bezos and his two yachts that cost $570 million. The smaller $70 million yacht follows the larger one around because of its environmental design that didn’t leave room for a helicopter landing deck.
The wealthy class also doesn’t worry about global warming and rising oceans. They can live anywhere they want and move anytime they want.
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Just once I’d like to see someone hold colleges and universities accountable for the enormous debt they create.
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FLERP,
If you are looking for someone to hold accountable for the high cost of higher education, start with state legislatures, which have chipped away at support for public universities and transferred the cost to students.
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That’s one of many causes.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-university-tuition-increase-spending-41a58100
“Public university leaders often blame stingier state funding for the need to raise tuition revenue. And three-fourths of states did cut their support, undermining a longstanding principle that schools educated the populace with government backing. But universities generally didn’t tighten their belts as a result. Rather, they raised prices far beyond what was needed to fill the hole.
For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found.
Through it all, schools operated in a culture that valued unrelenting growth and prioritized raising revenue over cutting costs. Administrators established ambitious strategic plans and tried to lure wealthy students with luxurious amenities. Influential college rankings rewarded those that spent more.
Many university officials struggled to understand their own budgets and simply increased spending every year. Trustees demanded little accountability and often rubber-stamped what came before them. And schools inconsistently disclose what they spend, making it nearly impossible for the public to review how their tuition and tax dollars are being used.
“These places are just devouring money,” said Holden Thorp, who was chancellor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill from 2008 to 2013 and is now editor in chief of Science. Offering everything to everyone all at once is unsustainable, he said. “Universities need to focus on what their true priorities are and what they were created to do,” he said.
Colleges invested money inside and outside the classroom, including to improve technology, expand counseling and intramural sports, and build facilities such as modern dorms and new stadiums.
To examine public university spending, the Journal collected data from audits, archived budget websites and documents received through public-records requests covering expenses in fiscal 2002, 2012 and 2022.
Much of the increase in outlays showed up in the hiring process, for administrators, faculty, coaches and finance experts, the Journal’s analysis found. Salaries and benefits, which usually eat up more than half of operating budgets, rose by roughly 40% at the median flagship since 2002.
The University of Florida in 2022 had more than 50 employees with titles of director, associate director or assistant director of communications, roughly double the number it had in 2017. The school also employed more than 160 assistant, associate, executive and other types of deans last year, up from about 130 in 2017.
Spokesman Steve Orlando said the university is decentralized and different departments have the freedom to hire as they need.
Inflation-adjusted spending on athletic coaches rose by about half between 2010 and 2022 at the median flagship, the Journal’s analysis of data from the Knight-Newhouse College Athletics Database found. The Journal used data from the period with the most complete figures.
Though a handful of powerhouse sports departments pay for themselves, most can break even only with student fees and university subsidies.
Across all flagships with available data, that additional funding totaled $632 million in 2022. That’s a jump of 27% from 12 years prior.
The University of Connecticut won the national championship this spring in men’s basketball, and its women’s team has been a near-constant presence in the Final Four. Yet since 2016, Connecticut’s athletic department has received more than $35 million annually in student fees and university subsidies to stay afloat. In 2022, it took in $55 million in such funds, making up more than half its total athletics budget.
The school said more than $13 million of that subsidy covered a payout to a former men’s basketball coach as part of a legal settlement over his employment contract, and that it faces unique challenges in having to pay rent and other fees for basketball and hockey games, which are played off campus.
Overall, the University of Connecticut’s spending rose by 73% between 2002 and 2022, far faster than enrollment grew. Much of that was driven by personnel costs, with spending on benefits more than tripling.
Reka Wrynn, associate vice president of budget, planning and institutional research, said that was in part because the school was on the hook for a growing share of the state’s unfunded pension liability. Connecticut was also obligated to pay for raises that unionized employees negotiated with the state, she said.“
And so on.
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And to state the obvious, declines in state funding or public universities have nothing to say about massive increases in the cost of private universities, which is essential the same as out-of-state tuition to top-flight public universities.
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Private universities may charge whatever the market will bear. Public universities are a gateway to opportunity. They should not be out of reach for low-income and middle-income families.
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Flerp!….blame the Obama Administration and the Goldman Sachs executives brought in to “manage” the housing loan crisis (the laws to discharge college loan debt due to bankruptcy were changed dramatically)! Colleges got really greedy because the Big Banks were then allowed to loan more money to people seeking higher education. It was a win-win for both industries. THE BANKS NEED REGULATION(!!!!!) by non-bankers!
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Any citations to research about this?
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In my book “Reign of Error,” I cited in-depth reporting in NY Times about states’ backing off their financial support for public higher Ed
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I’m referring to what LisaM is saying about banks.
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Flerp! I don’t remember where I read this, but I do remember doing some research to find out if it was true. I came across it when there was a discussion about how student loan debt could not be discharged in a bankruptcy. I always like to find out the “Why?”.
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I do remember that it involved “direct lending” and the restructuring of Sallie Mae. Like Fannie Mae, Sallie Mae is now privatized….I believe?
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Dr. Ravitch – While I admire many of the aspects that Finland has placed, we need to stop comparing ourselves to Finland. You mention that Finland pays for all education at all levels – then you say how is that possible – because Finland sees education as a basic human right. Sure. But rarely does one mention that the population of finland is 5,545,475 – which is 2 million less than the population of ONE city in the US (that city being NYC). Let’s also ADD that the personal tax rate in Finland is OVER 50%…..Now, I am sure you will say that we need billionares like Gates, Zuckerberg, even President #45 to pay more in taxes (on that I 100% agree). However, even doing so, will that lead to paying for the education at any level of all 55.4 million K-12 students in the US (so that doesn’t include anyone in college or graduate school).
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Finland has high taxes on hotels and restaurants too.
Our mantra is CUT TAXES.
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You seemed to completely avoid the population differences. Do you think our tax rate should be near 50% for everyone?
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If that’s what it takes to have free, high quality education, free healthcare, 6 weeks min vacation, 1 year maternity leave, social security people can live on, then of course, yes.
In the US, we are told that we have the choice of making the above a reality and we can also become rich. For 99% of the people, there is no such choice, so this promise about a fantastic life is as real as winning the lottery.
In Finland, they tell you “pay a reasonably high tax, and you have all of the above, and you will have a financially worry free life”, and it’s all real.
Btw, where do you get the 50% from?
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Here is where I get the 50% tax rate from: https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/personal-income-tax-rate
Again Finland has 5 million people. The US has 60 times that. Do you think the high tax rate for all will cover things for all like Finland. If Finland needs that high tax rate to cover all for 5 million then explain to me how that can work when 300 million?
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Well I have a different source saying otherwise:
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/Finland/Individual/Taxes-on-personal-income
But why wouldn’t the Finnish way work for a larger population? Worries about healthcare, education, social security are much lower i Europe than i the US, and the population size of Europe is comparable.
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The reason it may not work is because of the ratios – explain to me using simple ratios how you can scale this to 60 times the number of people in Finland.
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What are you talking about? 60 times bigger country will get 60 times more taxes. What are the expenses you want to cover in the US which don’t exist in Finland?
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Your stat cannot be correct since the taxing system in Finland is progressive. Wkipedia doesn’t list higher than %30+ income tax rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Finland
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Look here is the OCED which has it at 40%: https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-finland.pdf
As opposed to arguing about 10% here or there show me with ratios how to scale something to 60 times the population of Finland.
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Jlsteach,
You will have to do your own research.
I know a few things:
Finland has an excellent school system. Educators are well paid. Although there is no standardized testing from K-9, Finnish students do very well on international tests.
Finnish schools devote substantial time to the arts.
Finnish students have access to free meals at breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Medical care for students is free.
Finland has a much lower rate of child poverty than we do.
All education—including medical school, law school, and other kinds of graduate education—is tuition-free.
Polls that look at many aspects of life regularly rank Finland as the happiest country in the world.
You pay taxes for what you want.
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All this is great but you or others have yet to demonstrate how this can be scaled to 60 times a population of Finland. To simply say that population doesn’t matter well isn’t practical. You can all stand for the ideal (which is great) however without having a practical plan to implement that jdeal, then it’s just talk.
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“As opposed to arguing about 10% here or there show me with ratios how to scale something to 60 times the population of Finland.”
60 times more people will pay 60 times more taxes. Is this a simple enough comparison of two ratios?
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No it’s not. Because that assumes the ratios of people making the same amounts of money in the US is the same as Finland. It’s that simplistic idea that goes to show where your idealism doesn’t meet practicality.
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Are you telling me that the relative income of the people in the US is less than in Finland?
My data shows that GDP/capita in the US is $70K
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=US
while in Finland, it’s $50K
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=FI
So Finland has $25K per person to spend on education, healthcare, etc, under 50% taxing while the US would have $35K.
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First year, assuming that every single person pays the same tax rate. Or are you in favor of a flat tax and 50% across-the-board? Second, as others have noted perhaps education is cheaper in Finland than in the US. Third, unless you’re in favor of a coup d’état, just taking over the United States. How are you going to democratically have a tax rate of 50%?
Look, I agree that many of the ideas from Finland are good: they include having a national curriculum, and having high standards for those we need to go into education. However, I also know the reality of the United States. You can dream all you want about high tax rates and other things however, I live in the real world where such things probably aren’t going to happen anytime soon and so there’s a choice you can keep dreaming or you can practically try to make change
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“you can keep dreaming or you can practically try to make change”
So your initial claim about the Finnish 50% taxing not giving the same good results if it was implemented in the US turned into such generic nonsense? Wow.
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I’m saying you’ve given no proof it would work at scale. You have yet to.
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The population size isn’t the problem (because a larger population generates more tax revenue). The problem is that post-secondary education is more than double, almost triple the cost in the US than it is in Finland. Higher administrative costs because of the reams and reams of administrators on staff. Higher salaries for admins and tenured faculty. Higher capital costs because US universities compete for rich students (or students with rich loans) with four-star amenities (swank dorms, dining halls, gyms) that you will not find in universities in Europe or the UK. And freely available private loans for students in the US. It’s a toxic formula we have here and there are no incentives to rein it in.
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Good summary. People in the US, especially in MAGA land, love to dismiss news of a better life from other parts of the World with a single stroke “that’s a small country” or “they don’t have immigrants” or “they don’t have ghettos” or simply “it’s not true and the economy there is collapsing”. They don’t know what they are talking about.
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And others love to just say “let’s do it like this country” without considering everything. BTW do you know Finland has a national curriculum for K12, something the US Constitution doesn’t allow (see article X). And practically how does one apply ideas that cover 5 million to those that cover 300 million. Don’t just say “people like to say it’s a small country” – tell me practically how to do it. Otherwise it’s more of a pipe dream
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Are you asking me how to convince MAGA people not to pour their money into the military and billionaires’ pockets? Yeah, you are right, it cannot be done. They don’t listen, and when you tell them about countries where things work well, they claim, those countries don’t exists, or their examples cannot be applied to the greatest country in the world—so they argue similarly to you.
Yes, the US as it is, is hopeless. It’s too big, too set in its ways and too corrupt for significant change. It needs to break up into smaller parts.
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This is also one of the reasons it would be so difficult to nationalize healthcare in the US: healthcare is just much more expensive here than in Europe. Compare doctor and nurse salaries in the US to those in the UK, for example.
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Re university costs:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2019/09/22/america-spends-more-on-college-than-virtually-any-other-country/amp/
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jlsteach “However, even doing so, will that lead to paying for the education at any level of all 55.4 million K-12 students in the US (so that doesn’t include anyone in college or graduate school).”
If Finland can pay for the schooling of its youth, why couldn’t the US do the same, provided the US pays the same 50% tax as Finland? After all, it would get 60 times the tax income as Finland to support its population which is 60 times the population of Finland.
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There’s a great song by the Barenaked Ladies called, “if I had a million dollars…” it’s a wish. So tell me how will you get Congress to pass a tax rate of 50% for everyone? If you have a good answer to that perhaps you also know the winning lottery numbers, can play power all when it’s 1 billion and use those $$ to solve all issues you’ve mentioned
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Good, so you finally tell us, the reason for the US won’t be like Finland in the near future, is not because of some monetary or other physical impossibility (like population composition or size or geographical differences) but because of politics.
This is what we claimed in the very beginning.
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One where did u claim that? And two – I still have yet to see an available model from you or anyone else on how the Finnish model can be scaled 60 times….do you know how many local ideas have failed to be raised to scale for multiple reasons? It’s simply irrational to say so why Ivy they works for a small sector can automatically work for another.
One final thought – automatically labeling people doesn’t help either (aka claiming I’m MAGA because I make one point some of them may make). Such labels only polarize and don’t unite.
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jlsteach,
You’re back! Hope all is well with you and yours.
“they include having a national curriculum, and having high standards for those we need to go into education.”
No to a national curriculum. No to standards, especially the pseudo-standards that have been foisted upon teachers which have almost destroyed the teaching and learning process by focusing instruction on those trivialized pseudo-standards.
Yes, I’m against “high standards”, especially when that “high” is nothing more substantial than what one can expect from ingesting mind-altering substances.
Now to my point on your question about how do we scale up 60k to 350K. No one has directly answered that because it is nonsensical to expect a complete answer in such a short time/space. So allow me to ask you a question that can be satisfactorily answered here:
How did the USA become the supposed top-dog nation of the world in the second half of the 20th century without having national “educational standards” in place? Have at it!
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@duane – you keep saying US is the Top dog – and yet how many kids were left behind during that time or denied access to better educations?
As for my reference to national standards well jf we want to be like Finland in all things we need national standards…or maybe we don’t need to be like Finland
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Exactly on your question. Notice I said “supposed top dog”. The standards and testing malpractice regime has done nothing to help alleviate those shortcomings. If anything it has made said shortcomings worse by bastardizing the teaching and learning process into one that harms far more students than before.
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And yet Finland…they have national standards and are doing so well…thus…
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Finland’s national standards are not at all line Common Core. They are broad and leave decisions about what and how to teach to teachers.
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Dr Ravitch – last I looked the CCSS, particularly in math, do not say you have to teach something a set way. They are broad. So they sound like the Finnish National Standards. Yet I’m sure you know we can’t officially have even national standards jn the US since education is a state right. So do u believe like Finland we should have official national standards?
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I believe Common Core was a disaster. It was put together over a relatively short period of time. It was never field tested to find flaws. The panel creating it had few classroom teachers, few or no early childhood educators, no specialists in educating ELL students. It was funded in its entirety by the Gates Foundation, which made no secret of its desire to have a standardized curriculum. I was present at a meeting of NBCT teachers where Bill Gates extolled the virtues of standardization and compared teachers and students to electric appliances in need of a common plug.
The CCSS have been in use for over a decade. During that time, NAEP scores have been flat; achievement gaps have not closed. In short, CCSS has not been effective.
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“Last I looked the CCSS, particularly in math, do not say you have to teach something a set way.”
Except with the accompanying standardized tests, the ways in which the CC was supposed to be achieved were set firmly and rigidly.
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I’m going to drop another movie reference here – and combine it with practicality. In the movie Argo, the CIA operative calls having a fake movie shooting in Iran as “our best worst idea”….Over the years, I have come to think that maybe standardized testing could be something similar. Do I love standardized tests? Not at all. Do I believe we need to assess students in a way that does not leave things only to teachers? Yes I do (why – well, look at how many kids have been and were left behind when teachers were the only ones assessing). Could we do something different like portfolios? Yes. Can we do that practically across the United States? Not sure if we can. Or how that would work. Or how much time it would take…If you have thoughts on how to do assessment better in a practical way that would not take more time way from teaching in the classroom, I’d love to hear it. But dont’ just say – leave it to the teachers and “Trust the teachers” Because as one of my daughters noted – yes, I’ve had great teachers, but I’ve also had not so great teachers….
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. . . thus. . . comparing a small nation, smaller than some states is not necessarily a good one.
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Well, Duane – I believe that others on this post may disagree with you that population shouldn’t matter (although I am not sure that having national standards is a bad thing – as you well know). BUT, give that Finland is smaller than some states and well, all states have some set of standards, is is really that bad?
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Yes, it is bad because the day in/day out teaching and learning process is an art, not a science. The standards are bogus, invalid as shown by Wilson, myself and others. So we keep on doing the “wrong thing righter” which results in “doing wronger”*. It doesn’t make sense to continue on that path.
Again, I ask the question: How did the USA become THE supposed top-dog nation in the world in the second half of the 20th century without having or using “educational standards”? Perhaps you can be the first to answer my question.
*Doing the Wrong Thing Righter
The proliferation of educational standards, assessments, evaluations and canned programs belongs in the category of what systems theorist Russ Ackoff describes as “doing the wrong thing righter. The righter we do the wrong thing,” he explains, “the wronger we become. When we make a mistake doing the wrong thing and correct it, we become wronger. When we make a mistake doing the right thing and correct it, we become righter. Therefore, it is better to do the right thing wrong than the wrong thing right.”
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Ah you and Wilson – the best of buddies…But without standards, then let’s just let anyone teach whatever they want…was that really successful? Has it been really successful? Did that work? How many kids were left behind by teachers having low expectations? Let’s not rehash this one Duane – we don’t agree on it.
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Did you know that the very best, most elite private schools don’t adhere to “national standards.” The teachers set their own high standards. Parents pay $60,000 and higher for their children to attend these schools.
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Yes I do know that. I also know that in those private schools teachers teach at will – there are no unions. So which do you want – no unions or standards? My guess is you want both. I’ve seen too many teachers protected by unions despite not being strong teachers.
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I prefer teachers’ unions and the kind of national standards that Finland has: not tied to a standardized test.
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Dr. Ravitch I believe that we have had a conversation about this related to testing in Finland – okay they don’t have standardized tests but I believe there testing may be more like A levels in Europe – which are very high stakes. So is that testing good? What type of accountability would you call for in education? I know I’ve read ur books on this however having no accountability seems reckless
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Finland has no standardized testing until the beginning of secondary school.
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I don’t know of any teachers who ever “just. . . teach whatever they want.” Yes, even before this century and NCLB and the standards and testing malpractice regime, it didn’t happen. So that’s not a valid argument and the next questions are irrelevant. Other than perhaps to ask of your standards and testing malpractice regime. How has that worked out for the last 20+ years?
Again, since you haven’t directly answered my question: How did the USA become the supposed top dog nation in the second half of the 19th century without having any standards in place for 85% of the students that attended public schooling?
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Second half of the 19th century – you mean 1850-1900? Right – how many kids of color were in school then? How many total kids were in school? Actually how many states were in the US (hint it was way less than 50)…so your logic says because there were no standards then there shouldn’t be standards now – I wonder what Wilson would say about such faulty logic
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Oops, sorry, thanks for the correction! 20th century not the 19th. Can you say “Old man brain fart?”
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Well, 19th or 20th century – where is your evidence that the US was the “supposed top dog” during the 1950s, 60s, etc. I’m confident there were many students that were left behind during those eras as well.
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Deflect, deflect, deflect. . . . Can’t answer the question, eh?
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I could say the same to you? You didn’t answer mine did you? I didn’t deflect. I don’t think that you were correct that we are supposed to be top nation in the 20th century. Can you justify your claim? Now whose turn to answer?
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Whatever!
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Is jlsteach in education at all?
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Yes. I taught HS for 10 years. Worked in teacher prep. Now work in a school center office. Why do you question if I am I educations Are you in education? What’s your role?
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Sorry, I asked the question in an irritating way which was not intended. Also, you do not have to be an educator to post here.
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I completely agree that you don’t have to be an educator here – and I accept your apology…it certainly seemed to imply that I was not in education.
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“maybe we don’t need to be like Finland”
Either we want to be the kind of people who do not worry about healthcare, education, maternity leave, etc, or we don’t. If we do, though, then we can follow the Finnish example, since it’s proven to be working. Something similar has been working in other Scandinavian countries and Western European countries, so we passed the experimental stage by decades.
This goal doesn’t demand that we turn into Finland. But it does demand that we declare that education, healthcare, etc are human rights.
And yes, we need to drop dreams about becoming filthy rich at the expense of other people, and we have to find other, more practical (and ethical) dreams for a happy life.
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Where we agree: ideas that basic health and education are human rights. Where we also agree – the goal of anyone should not be to make the most money and get richer.
Where we disagree: it is easier to make larger changes in smaller settings, thus to be “like Finland” in meeting these goals it is much harder in a larger country in the US. It’s more challenging to make these changes in a country with less diversity and with fewer people having more needs….
Dreaming without having some type of practicality is well, impractical
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What can we learn from Finland? Pay attention to the needs of children. “Education reform” begins with ensuring that children start school ready to learn—with adequate medical care and nutrition and with a decent standard of living. School choice ignores the essentials, as do national academic standards.
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Yet Finland has national standards don’t they?
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National standards is not a dirty expression. It becomes one if the standards prescribe the teacher minute by minute what to teach and how, and demand standardized tests at prescribed times.
It’s necessary to describe the core material every student needs to know. In math every kid needs to know what a triangle or past tense are.
The details of the national standards determine if the they give freedom to students and teachers or confine them in curriculum prison.
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Well said, Máté.
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The national standards in Finland, unlike the Common Core, are not tied to a test. Teachers have autonomy to teach without teaching to a test. That is a huge difference.
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“Where we disagree: it is easier to make larger changes in smaller settings,…”
There is no disagreement here either. What they have in Finland is a goal which is working well in practice and not some utopia from a novel. Is it easier to achieve this goal in a single state than in the whole US? Yes. But the point is that the education and health care system are working well in Finland, making the goal realistic for us, not just a “pipe dream”.
What I can tell you is that those ex Soviet states which are close to Scandinavia (like Estonia) are doing much better economically and socially than Russia and those countries in the ex Soviet block which are under the influence of the US (like Hungary).
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It took Finland decades to get where they are now, so will the “big” change in the US.
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“Dreaming without having some type of practicality is well, impractical”
Goal setting is not dreaming.
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Here’s where we will disagree on this…An unrealistic goal doesn’t may be as impractical as not having a goal at all…I am a 5’11 skinny guy who appreciated playing basketball on the side. Yet, even if I had a DREAM if making it to the NBA, at the point where I was in college, well, I knew realistically, no matter what I did, that dream wasn’t a reality. Even if I committed every moment to becoming a better player, I worked out regularly, I ate better, etc. my goal of making it to the NBA wasn’t going to happen. So, how is it a realistic goal to be similar to Finland in terms of providing health care, education, etc., for all 300 million in the US? If we keep focusing on such goals that may not be feasible, then what? I’d rather focus my time and energy on goals that are realisitic…
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For you jlsteach. “If I had a million dollars I’d buy you a monkey. Haven’t you always wanted a monkey?”
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I wouldn’t want a monkey. I love monkeys, but I wouldn’t want to cage a monkey. But I also don’t trust a monkey.
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@Duane – personally I’d buy some art – a Picasso …or maybe a tiny refrigerator with lots of fancy mustards. Glad to see we have similar taste in music.
@FLERP – Duane was only quoting a line from the song
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When I lived in Peru way back when a half a century ago a couple of families that I visited had monkeys for pets. Kind of spooked me and I’m sure the monkeys could sense my unease. We had a squirrel, crows, snakes, turtles and other various assorted pets when I was growing up, but monkeys. . . .
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The monkeys to which I referred when I was in Peru weren’t caged. They roamed the house freely like a cat or dog.
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“ I’m sure the monkeys could sense my unease”
That’s the thing. They’re smart, they would see they could manipulate me. Can’t trust a monkey.
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A few days ago I had the great good fortune to receive a letter from MOHELA, which is the Biden administration’s new “in-house” federal loan servicer. My application for Public Service Loan Forgiveness was accepted after 20+ years teaching in Title One schools.
Here’s my experience with “the system”, good and bad–
My original federally guaranteed loan was $40,000 for a 2 year M.Ed. program in New England. After graduation, my private sector loan servicer was helpful, efficient and accurate, and I ALWAYS filed the paperwork, notified them of my address and income changes, etc.
I enrolled in an income based repayment plan (IBR), which was very helpful, BUT the compound interest rate was 7.75% (same for any of the other repayment plans). With a starting salary of $29,000 in my first job, my IBR payments were low, but with that interest rate, my loan balance increased every month. And every year too, despite moving up the salary scale $1,500 per year.
During my last few months in grad school, I had run out of loan money, so took a half-time job in a preschool and ran up a credit card balance of a few thousand dollars. When I got that first full-time job, I enrolled in a Consumer Credit Counseling (CCC) plan, which stopped the high interest and late fees on my card. That took a year to pay off–with no charge from CCC–and I have not had a credit card since. (There are other such companies too, but be sure to use a non-profit organization with a Better Business Bureau approval.)
I bought a big old run down house slated for demolition for a few thousand dollars, heated one room, kept the faucets dripping to avoid freezing and climbed up on the roof once a week to replace the shingles that blew off. Still was unable to pay more than the IBR on my student loan.
After several years of success (in the classroom, not on the roof) I decided to move to AZ, as I had never been west of the Mississippi. A great principal hired me over the phone, but I flew out first to see for myself. The school was indeed good, and I accepted the position, though the location in a rural area with extensive mining contamination left something to be desired.
I quickly discovered that housing left something to be desired, too. Rents were high, and the cheapest things for sale were trailers for $100,000 on small lots with barking dogs and junk everywhere, and water had to be hauled in. AZ is 75% state and federal land, so I camped in my van on back roads for a year and a half before–wonder of wonders– finding a small house with extensive termite damage on a quarter-acre for $40,000.
Financially, my salary dropped from $42,000 to $39,000 when I moved to AZ, and when the speculators gave us the Great Recession during my second year there, the school board froze salaries and ended annual step increases. Further cutbacks followed, with my job as an arts teacher reduced to half time and then eliminated after 10 years there. I found a part time job at a charter school until that went out of business. (Everyone there including the principal was paid $30,000 full time equivalent).
I began to think about moving back to the Northeast, but found a job on one of the Reservations–and at a salary of $59,000! For the first time in my career, my salary was high enough that the IBR payment was the same as the standard non-IBR monthly payment.
Somewhere around my 15th year of teaching, I had paid back an amount equal to the original loan of $40,000, but thanks to 7.75% interest, my remaining balance was still over $100,000, now forgiven. Thank you.
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Thank you for your story. It highlights the difficulty young teachers have in paying back debt, finding affordable housing and a stable position. I hope your decent paying job makes you happy in all ways.
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Sadly, that Rez job ended at the end of the 2020 school year with COVID, curfews, and inoperable remote learning. Much worse was the next year which brought more of the same and a death rate higher than that in any of the 50 states.
I used the time to relocate to an area with less heat and more water and am now looking to work another 5 years. I came to teaching late, after 30 years in the trades.
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I believe that student debt is outrageous and should be forgiven. The Republicans fight tooth and nail to pay off none of it.
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Dr. Ravitch – we agree that student debt is out of control – particularly predatory lenders that prey on our neediest…That said, what about those that worked 2-3 jobs, etc to avoid debt and managed to complete school without taking out large loans. Should there be some type of balance?
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