Noam Chomsky argues that you should vote strategically. If you are in a state where the outcome is a foregone conclusion, vote for a third-party candidate or don’t vote. However, if you are in a state where the race is close, he says, vote LEV: the Lesser of Two Evils.
He writes:
Among the elements of the weak form of democracy enshrined in the constitution, presidential elections continue to pose a dilemma for the left in that any form of participation or non participation appears to impose a significant cost on our capacity to develop a serious opposition to the corporate agenda served by establishment politicians. The position outlined below is that which many regard as the most effective response to this quadrennial Hobson’s choice, namely the so-called “lesser evil” voting strategy or LEV. Simply put, LEV involves, where you can, i.e. in safe states, voting for the losing third party candidate you prefer, or not voting at all. In competitive “swing” states, where you must, one votes for the “lesser evil” Democrat.
Before fielding objections, it will be useful to make certain background stipulations with respect to the points below. The first is to note that since changes in the relevant facts require changes in tactics, proposals having to do with our relationship to the “electoral extravaganza” should be regarded as provisional. This is most relevant with respect to point 3) which some will challenge by citing the claim that Clinton’s foreign policy could pose a more serious menace than that of Trump.
In any case, while conceding as an outside possibility that Trump’s foreign policy is preferable, most of us not already convinced that that is so will need more evidence than can be aired in a discussion involving this statement. Furthermore, insofar as this is the fact of the matter, following the logic through seems to require a vote for Trump, though it’s a bit hard to know whether those making this suggestion are intending it seriously.
Another point of disagreement is not factual but involves the ethical/moral principle addressed in 1), sometimes referred to as the “politics of moral witness.” Generally associated with the religious left, secular leftists implicitly invoke it when they reject LEV on the grounds that “a lesser of two evils is still evil.” Leaving aside the obvious rejoinder that this is exactly the point of lesser evil voting-i.e. to do less evil, what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences, specifically those outlined in 4). The basic moral principle at stake is simple: not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.
While some would suggest extending the critique by noting that the politics of moral witness can become indistinguishable from narcissistic self-agrandizement, this is substantially more harsh than what was intended and harsher than what is merited. That said, those reflexively denouncing advocates of LEV on a supposed “moral” basis should consider that their footing on the high ground may not be as secure as they often take for granted to be the case.
A third criticism of LEV equates it with a passive acquiescence to the bipartisan status quo under the guise of pragmatism, usually deriving from those who have lost the appetite for radical change. It is surely the case that some of those endorsing LEV are doing so in bad faith-cynical functionaries whose objective is to promote capitulation to a system which they are invested in protecting. Others supporting LEV, however, can hardly be reasonably accused of having made their peace with the establishment. Their concern, as alluded to in 6) and 7) inheres in the awareness that frivolous and poorly considered electoral decisions impose a cost, their memories extending to the ultra-left faction of the peace movement having minimized the comparative dangers of the Nixon presidency during the 1968 elections. The result was six years of senseless death and destruction in Southeast Asia and also a predictable fracture of the left setting it up for its ultimate collapse during the backlash decades to follow.
The broader lesson to be drawn is not to shy away from confronting the dominance of the political system under the management of the two major parties. Rather, challenges to it need to be issued with a full awareness of their possible consequences. This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative. A Trump presidency, should it materialize, will undermine the burgeoning movement centered around the Sanders campaign, particularly if it is perceived as having minimized the dangers posed by the far right.
A more general conclusion to be derived from this recognition is that this sort of cost/benefit strategic accounting is fundamental to any politics which is serious about radical change. Those on the left who ignore it, or dismiss it as irrelevant are engaging in political fantasy and are an obstacle to, rather than ally of, the movement which now seems to be materializing.
Finally, it should be understood that the reigning doctrinal system recognizes the role presidential elections perform in diverting the left from actions which have the potential to be effective in advancing its agenda. These include developing organizations committed to extra-political means, most notably street protest, but also competing for office in potentially winnable races. The left should devote the minimum of time necessary to exercise the LEV choice then immediately return to pursuing goals which are not timed to the national electoral cycle.
*****
1) Voting should not be viewed as a form of personal self-expression or moral judgement directed in retaliation towards major party candidates who fail to reflect our values, or of a corrupt system designed to limit choices to those acceptable to corporate elites.
2) The exclusive consequence of the act of voting in 2016 will be (if in a contested “swing state”) to marginally increase or decrease the chance of one of the major party candidates winning.
3) One of these candidates, Trump, denies the existence of global warming, calls for increasing use of fossil fuels, dismantling of environmental regulations and refuses assistance to India and other developing nations as called for in the Paris agreement, the combination of which could, in four years, take us to a catastrophic tipping point. Trump has also pledged to deport 11 million Mexican immigrants, offered to provide for the defense of supporters who have assaulted African American protestors at his rallies, stated his “openness to using nuclear weapons”, supports a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. and regards “the police in this country as absolutely mistreated and misunderstood” while having “done an unbelievable job of keeping law and order.” Trump has also pledged to increase military spending while cutting taxes on the rich, hence shredding what remains of the social welfare “safety net” despite pretenses.
4) The suffering which these and other similarly extremist policies and attitudes will impose on marginalized and already oppressed populations has a high probability of being significantly greater than that which will result from a Clinton presidency.
5) 4) should constitute sufficient basis to voting for Clinton where a vote is potentially consequential-namely, in a contested, “swing” state.
6) However, the left should also recognize that, should Trump win based on its failure to support Clinton, it will repeatedly face the accusation (based in fact), that it lacks concern for those sure to be most victimized by a Trump administration.
7) Often this charge will emanate from establishment operatives who will use it as a bad faith justification for defeating challenges to corporate hegemony either in the Democratic Party or outside of it. They will ensure that it will be widely circulated in mainstream media channels with the result that many of those who would otherwise be sympathetic to a left challenge will find it a convincing reason to maintain their ties with the political establishment rather than breaking with it, as they must.
8) Conclusion: by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve.
Better education (functional I dare say) is best for society.
/Speakin gof better education…from the NY Times today…..
Donald Trump Is Making America Meaner
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/14/opinion/sunday/donald-trump-is-making-america-meaner.html?_r=1
FOREST GROVE, Ore. — ALL across America, in little towns like this one,
Donald Trump is mainstreaming hate.
A home run by Noam Chomsky. Bravo. Will Chris Hedges go into attack mode and smear Noam as he smeared Bernie? There is Bernie, the lone social democrat in the Senate, in the US legislature, should he not talk to all the corporate hacks and alienate himself into oblivion? Bernie is the first to admit that he has had to make compromises in order to get anything done. He has to have civil relations with the tea party crazies and the bought off corporate Dems. That’s the reality. Hedges is too good, too perfect, too ideologically pure to lower himself to actually try to work within the system or infiltrate the system. President Jill Stein would have to work with the congress and yes, make compromises to get things done. Cornel West supports Jill but he does comport himself as an arrogant obnoxious twit.
I personally am looking askance at Chris Hedges. His views have become so biased that I no longer find them relevant. He has never run for public office, but these days, sits insulated from reality and only takes potshots at more courageous among us, like Bernie, and like Susan Collins who this AM spoke about tRump and his lack of abliity to lead the nation..
Bernie understands that to change the system, you must gain leverage within the system. He would not have gained any traction had he not been elected Senator. He would not have been elected Senator had he not first served asMayor.
Whoops, I goofed, sorry. My bad. “Cornel West supports Jill but he does comport himself as an arrogant obnoxious twit.” should be, Cornel West supports Jill but he does NOT comport himself as an arrogant obnoxious twit.
Bernie had to become a Democrat too. That’s a big deal. I agree with Noam Chomsky as always. (I first learned about him in Psych 101. Chomsky’s cognitivism is superior. Skinnerianism and Freudianism are inhumane.) Thank the Lord I live in a state of relatively solid blue. I couldn’t handle the pressure of living in a state of swing. My worry is that it will be impossible to pull the Dems to the left in 2020 no matter who wins in 2016. If another Clinton wins, there probably won’t be much of a Dem primary next time around. It’s a lose-lose this year. Sorry for my pessimism, but stick a fork in the world, it’s done. Unless… there is something special in the youth of the Bernie Revolution that will grow.
My Leftcoast Teacher we are not going to wait till 2020.
2016 is when the battle begins. It must take place in the voting booths and in peaceful demonstrations so large that it changes the narrative of a Nation. In order for that effort in the voting booths to be effective the narrative must be changed. The LEV vote had better end the day after the election. It is at that point those we have voted for must feel the heat . It should start with massive demonstrations to oppose the TPP being pushed through in the lame duck .
We fail to do this and the next Trump will be smarter and more destructive.
Joel of Much Wisdom,
2016 was the year I learned that the battle started in 1972. I impatiently await November 9th when we grab our torches and pitchforks. It’s been a long, trying summer. “The next Trump”? Whew! Frightening thought. In the meantime before November 9th, let’s not push any more toward the center than we absolutely must to get enough LEVs. Third Way and the Right Wing have too much power as is. Truly sickening. It’s an intricate dance we must perform this fall. I think Dr. Chomsky has it right about differentiating between red, blue, and purple states.
LeftCoast Teacher: let’s just take four years at a time. It’s not a chess game, there’s a world pot bubbling out there beyond the two US teams playing. Had the economy not been collapsing around us & Iraq war backfiring in 2008, Republicans might have won in 2008. Would McCain/Palin have been better than Obama/Biden? Whether Hillary is a shoo-in in 2020 (assuming she wins in 2016) could depend on natl & world events not now foreseen. Meanwhile, from this point forward, anti-corporatists of all stripes need to be organizing around fed & state candidates. I’m thinking that will be a tad easier under Clinton than Trump.
bethree5
A huuuuge tad .
Chris Hedges is obviously a very intelligent person, and often right. He was very wrong about Bernie Sanders, though, and what Bernie has accomplished through his “compromise.”
This is a prevailing problem with hard leftists. They are simultaneously wrong and right. If less of us compromised, we wouldn’t be in this situation. But if we don’t compromise, we often don’t have leverage, or a starting point. Paradox strikes again.
The balance is knowing that people/societies don’t quickly learn/understand, and suddenly become active en masse, simply because of a good reason. If that were true, Chris Hedges and others would be more correct that we should be far less compromising.
The trick is deciding which compromises are better to make, and to always continue “activating” class consciousness in others, among other virtues.
I think Bernie Sanders has done a great job at that, and as such, he’s been an effective leader and role model. Painting him as some kind of foolish villain, as Chris Hedges has done, is an accusation worthy of bizarro world.
For certain, Chris is wrong about who Bernie Sanders is, and the change he’s already brought.
agree, agree, agree with Diane. It is something I tell my son…change from within the existing system…since he would like to overthrow everything !
With regard to Chris Hedges:
I disagree with Hedges’s attacks on Bernie, but I will still continue to read his essays because most of their content has value.
There is NEVER going to be 100% overlap among and within allies. But there has to be enough of an overlap.
What is counterproductive is the extent of internecine conflict that gets to be so great that the force and advocacy against education reform start to fall apart and jeopardize the overall push-back movement.
There comes a time when people have to grow up and deal with imperfections amongst allies by heading towards the ultimate prize. Those who are willing to do this will win, and those who are not will be left behind mired in the very disease they had always been trying to cure.
Ironic, isn’t it?
I say AMEN to Noam Chomsky and his above statements. If you watched CBS Face the Nation this morning and heard ALL the various ideas on what a president should be like, Trump fits NONE of them. I personally am frightened, terrified for my children and grandchildren at the thought of a Trump presidency and as I have said before will hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Dividing the vote MIGHT result in catastrophe. The climate change issue alone is enough to discredit Trump.
Too, remember to FIGHT for the principles which Bernie espoused. Even had he become president it would have been essential. He always said he could not do it by himself and his movement would have to force the issues.
AND
remember too the importance of the Senate and House seats as well as your local elections. ALL are important.
Yes…Gordon…I agree.
And Leftie…don’t despair. Our flawed system needs constant vigilance, but works more often than not. The nation is the hands of your generation…but as we often speak about, requires the study of history, and humanism.
Ellen,
Au contrairey, mon frerey. The nation is not in my generation’s hands yet. Pres Obama and all the candidates are Boomers. My generation, meaningless variable “X” (Who comes up with these labels?) is almost as establishment friendly as Baby Boomers are, anyway. My desperate, belabored hope is that the generations that came after me, “Y”, “Z”, millennial, and whatever they’re calling children these days, the vociferous plethora of people half my age who got out there for Bernie, will find a way to save what FDR and Johnson gave this country. One day. That’s a long way down the road. I pay attention and keep my eye a long way down the road. It makes me a good driver, I think. When I think of it in those terms, it alleviates a lot of the desperation for salvation from Billary. I hope she beats Don Corleone Trump, but she will not make the flawed system any less flawed. I just hope we still have public schools when the younger generations take the reins.
And my thoughts will be with you and NPE on Wednesday! Do it to it!
Yep. By the time Generation X finally gets a chance to do anything in the government, the Millennials will take leadership. We in Gen X have been overlooked our entire lives.
Gen X: who are ou guys, anyway? Are you the ‘yuppies’? I remember being in a writing group in the ’80’s & being accused of being a ‘sell-out’– oldsters had this idea that somehow hippies ‘became’ yuppies. I would try in vain to tell them, no, that was our younger siblings who wanted to be anyplace other than on the front lines…
I believe we were talking about hopefulness for future generations inspired by Bernie Sanders supporters, new to politics. The idealism of youth. School starts this week for me. I’d like to think, as I prepare to board the U.S.S. Education that repairs to the ship are at our fore. Right now, we’re setting off into rough seas with holes in the sails. A lesser of two weevils in the bread. Shivering timbers. That sort of thing.
Ah, a reader of Patrick O’Brian.
Yes. I have sailed with Captain Aubrey as well as Captain Hornblower.
I prefer BoB (Bad or Badder) to describe the two candidates, because our justice system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and to be judged evil of an alleged crime means proving guilt beyond a doubt in a court of law with a jury of your peers presided over by a judge who is sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the laws of this country.
How many court cases as Donald Trump lost compared to Hillary Clinton?
Yep, that’s pretty much the analysis.
Good to know. I plan on voting Green!
Finally–a thorough explanation of the fallacy of “do-gooder” politics in a world of political snakery. There is conscience and there is reality. They CAN co-exist. To fight the system, you have to work within it. This isn’t some Hollywood movie where the rebel with a good cause shows everyone the way without any casualties. We’re not superheroes. We’re flawed like everyone else. That does not mean we give up the fight, either. We work to effect change, not change everything to effect what we think works. Nobody will invite you to the party if they think you seek to destroy it.
I agree. My favorite takeaways:
“The basic moral principle at stake is simple: not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.”
And “by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve.”
I disagree with Chomsky. A “corporate agenda?” I presume is he talking about Clinton here. For the first time in our history we can have a female as President. This is significant. (Before people remark that we shouldn’t vote for a president because of gender, hear me out) Clinton has been fighting for women and children for her whole career. From going undercover to route out racism in schools in AK to reaching across the aisle with republicans who impeached her husband in order to create legislation to get more children in foster care adopted, Hillary has been a consistent fighter for children and women. We have never had a President with this type of background. (And before you say she is a “liar” and a “crook” I would say that by relaxing the use of GOP talking points against her and looking into her background (of particular note is her work bringing attention to the world of the crime of sex trafficking back when she was FLOTUS – yes, she did that which led to the first ever legislation that enabled us to prosecute traffickers) is a good start. We have a nation that is more than half female. Of these females we have children. Girls need to see a female president. It is imperative.
Jennifer, even giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that you mention one episode from almost 45 years ago (described as “out of character” in a 2015 NYT article) and another from twenty years ago as parentheticals, bookends to Hillary’s vaunted career “fighting for women and children,” this is really weak tea, at best, and gross misdirection at worst.
If you are mentioning these two episodes – one minor and taking place four decades ago, and another one almost twenty years old and arguably as socially destructive as Hillary’s support for the crime bill and so-called welfare reform, then it’s a pitiful defense to the (easily supported) claim that Hillary’s career has been net destructive to women and children.
To then use these to raise the banner of politically empowering women is the worst, most misleading kind of Identitarian politics.
AFSA – often criticized by people working in the child services profession – was signed into law almost twenty ago: don’t you have anything a little more recent regarding everything Hillary is doing for women and children? Maybe we should try asking women and children in Libya what Hillary has done for them recently. Oh, I forgot, that’s not news.
Is Hillary a crook? I don’t know, though she is undoubtedly a very clever parser of the law. However, when it comes to the decades-long claim of her “fighting for women and children,” that’s a lie and fraud, as even a two-minute Google search of your argument proves.
Vote for Hillary if you feel you must – I respect anyone who simply cannot bear the thought of Donnie as President, and sees voting for Hillary as nothing more than preventing that – but please don’t insult our intelligence with a transparently false reading of her career, and have no illusions about what will follow after Boogie Man/Court Jester Donnie has been disposed of in November.
M Fiorello – Clinton’s senatorial record is more recent. Keeping in mind the era (her term started not long before 9/11): she fought for yrs on investigating health issues for first responders & getting funds distributed to address them. Supported increased health benefits to veterans. Voted against Bush tax cuts. Cosponsored legislation to incentivize all-American domestic mfg. voted against CAFTA. (Et al lots of stuff for bringing mfg work to nys). Voted against confirmation of Roberts to SCOTUS. Supported Dem filibuster against Alito & voted against his conf to SCOTUS. Supported legislation to remove inappropriate content from family vidgames. Voted against the amendment to prohibit same-sex marriage. Voted for various measures to facilitate legalization of legal immigrants’ family members. Voted to extend economic stimulus measures to seniors, disabled veterans & the unemployed. Proposed renewal of New Deal measures to help homeowners in 2008.
Everything I listed supports women and children one way or another. I did not list her war votes, & am not crazy about her apparent view of what is necessary for national security.
Bethree5,
Everything you list appears commendable, and does provide a more valid rationale than Jennifer’s, but it’s comparatively minor stuff in view of the destruction caused by legislation she supported (and worked behind the scenes to pass) while First Lady, and still cannot support the decades-long and wildly overstated hype about her fighting for women and children.
And the war votes, along with her catastrophic decision to overthrow the Quadaffi regime – deceptively masked as a “humanitarian” effort to defend civilians – are more than a minor detail, no?
Anyway, we’ve probably taken this as far as necessary, and are unlikely to change each other’s minds. November is a long ways off, politically-speaking, Donnie may rise from the seeming-dead, and I might find myself feeling obliged to vote for Hillary (doubtful, but possible).
But it will be a dreary obligation, indeed, and I won’t delude myself into thinking that I’m doing anything other than (maybe) forestalling a far worse alternative.
Thank you Jennifer Hall Lee.
I whole heartedly agree with you.
It is devious part from Republican strategy that weaves and implants all make-up stories to harm Democrat Party Leader.
Look at Paul Manafort’s whose background is a MASSIVE web of deceit, and also who is Trump’s adviser/consultant.
My hope is that people or voters can show their strong support for Secretary Clinton who can bring back the balance and fairness in SCOTUS.
Last but not least, President Hillary Clinton can motivate more FEMALE Governors and Senators so that American legal system CAN BE SLOWLY ENHANCED for the recognition of third PARTY as THE THIRD MAJOR PARTY.
In short, Senator Bernie has succeeded in creating this movement for American People. Yes, all Bernie’s supporters have contributed to this possibility for the future Green Party being the MAJOR Party SOONER THAN THEIR EXPECTATION (= 4 YEARS, NOT 8 YEARS),
provided that Dr. Jill Stein shall run for Mayor and Governor ASAP. Back2basic
As much as I admire Chomsky’s thinking, I’d guess that the nuance—long historical perspective and philosophical reasoning—will be of limited interest to many voters.
Trump enthusiasts seem to be drawn to simple declarative judgments, delivered with the air of moral certainty, even if the claims are contradictory and misinformed or “only satire.” The media preoccupation with presidential politics–without attention to congressional, statehouse, and local elections–is dangerous, especially when you consider that David Duke, the convicted felon and KKK guy, is hoping for a Senate seat, riding in on the coattails of Trump.
Laura…this is why I have decided that massive registering of potential voters, as with motor/voter, would create even more disaster.
People who vote should have some background on the issues, and not just be manipulated by 10 second sound bites by Swift Boaters, or ‘voteria’ payoff (which caused us in LA to now have a devious and dedicated charter school owner on our LAUSD BoE).
(Fortunately the organization that initiated voteria has gone back to legitimate voter education and registration, and is, as far as I know, no longer illegally paying for votes.)
I am coming around to thinking that there should be a simple test for those who register to vote (such as ‘who is the current President and the VP?’ and ‘what are the three parts of our governing system?’.
If one does not even have the interest to register online, or to go to any post office and fill out the SIMPLE form, why should that person get an even hearing at the ballot box as we here who do our homework, or those new citizens who have studied hard to become Americans?
This push to motor/voter is IMO like graduating any and all students including those who cannot read or write, just because they are in school. Talk about social promotion!!!!….motor/voter is the greatest scam by government to manipulate large populations of uninformed people. Very dangerous.
Pour down your anger on me folks.
The voters who elected Hitler in1933 were well enough educated. Seems like we have to have a dedication to the ideals of life, liberty and equal protection of all under the law to assure the continued push against tyranny on either left or right. Hard to test that. Agreed that being knowledgable about issues is preferred. Even then, any one of us fails the test of seeing the future effects of our choice.
Michael’s post ignores my request – “do the research.” There is a reason many republicans have praised her in the senate – because she has crossed party lines to fight for children. We need bi-partisanship. That’s why so many republicans are signing on to elect her. To get things done. Not only that, but there was a time in this country where Dems and Repubs worked together, because they lived near each other in DC. No longer…..we are fractured. It is also interesting to me that when I post things about how girls (children) need to see diversity in the Oval Office, the criticism against a woman is like no other. It is a sold concrete wall of rejection. Hillary has been held under a microscope for decades. It is amazing she still did great work globally for women. Put different lenses in the eyewear that a 100% male Oval Office for the course of American history has placed on you and give women a chance in this world. We all feel so sorry for women overseas when we read of the violence, yet the one person who has actually helped and worked with these women is the candidate in front of you. Be a part of the solution. Think of the girls and boys in your life. You are a man who has had the image of the ultimate seat of power in our country reflected back to you as male. Give us a chance. Just this once.
Hitler was never elected, and the Nazis’ polling was trending DOWN when Hitler was made vice chancellor.
Let’s get the history right.
I think Chomsky is hoping to influence disaffected progressives who may sit this one out, or throw their votes to third party candidates. I doubt very much he expects the Trump-leaners even to read this. Frankly I found him tough to understand as an undergrad (in linguistics classes assoc w/a for-lang degree). I am better-read decades later but still find his prose chunky & unnecessarily opaque in spots!
OMG, Ellen. I respect & follow your posts closely. Are you serious? Should we bring back the poll tax too? Motor/voter (Natl Voter Reg Act of 1993) has been implemented to one degree or another for 21 yrs. Are you suggesting that voting results since early in the Clinton era are tainted due to a proliferation of voters who don’t deserve to vote (too stupid/ uneducated)? Perhaps you’d like to see a return to the ’60’s when kids could be drafted into combat at 18 but were to young/ stupid/ uneducated to vote for the folks declaring war? How about the kids we talk about supporting on this forum: failed a test in 3rd-gr so have to repeat a grade, placing them at hi risk for dropping out of hs etc– maybe they wouldn’t pass your ‘simple exam’, joining the ranks of disenfranchised folk like felons who have pd their dues & elderly/poor who couldn’t come up w/the latest red-state wrinkle in voter ID?
Please.
Ellen Lubic, surely you jest. A mandatory literacy test before allowing citizens to exercise their RIGHT to vote? You really want to return to the days of “Jim Crow”?! Or, substitute “move on to fourth grade” for “register to vote” and you have parroted the reformist line perfectly. We can’t let those illiterate folks vote, or move on to fourth grade!
You also repeat the lie that folks are too lazy to register to vote, or get ID, so too bad for them, conveniently ignoring the fact that many people do not have the time, the money, the computer, the Internet access or the transportation to make it happen. You seem to be fine with denying them the right to vote, too. Please, imagine if you were deliberately disenfranchised – how would you feel?
Statements like yours are extremely dangerous, and completely contrary to American democracy. I can only hope that your comment was meant to be sarcastic.
bethree5 and Janet…I can understand your wrath and feel sad that I disappointed you. I read this and think, yoiks, I am no longer the flaming lib of my younger days.
It is only in the past few years that I have ameliorated my views on voting. I spend much time registering voters in inner cities and have great respect for people who worked hard to learn about democracy and what a democratic republic is all about. These are not the folks I am referring to. And I do believe in weekend voting so people do not have to choose between working or voting.
Of course I would not want poll taxes, nor any sort of Jim Crow behavior….however, a few things I have encountered have caused me to write as I did…and I do not think that just because you live in the US and breath, you are an informed voter or even a valid voter.
Some of the homeless vets in WLA are up on politics and very informed. Some of the homeless parents living on San Pedro Street downtown, our Skid Row, are not only very informed, but understand how the Welfare to Work fiasco which was imposed on the poor like a shell game, just as, concurrently, off shoring of jobs was rampant, should be voting, but have no permanent address…and they are not who I am writing about.
Watching the shenanigans of how some LAUSD BoE members manipulate their uninformed constituents by 1) creating Voteria and paying people who had no intention of voting, nor registering to vote, and who are influenced to do this citizen’s duty or privilege, was a shock to me and I wrote about this at great length here during our last election. I watched in horror at how an election was stolen by two things.
1) huge outside billionaire cash from all over the country pouring into the coffers of charter school candidates (with the help of elected officials like our former Mayor Villaraigosa), and
2) the illegal Voteria process that was even allowed into our high schools to register 18 year old students….but encouraging all of these new voters to vote (ostensibly for a selected candidate from their district who had a name similar to theirs) FOR a chance to win $25,000. IMO it is far from Jim Crow to object to this.
You can search Diane’s archives for more details on voter manipulation in this instance. (BRW It has seems to have stopped since many people objected to this. The president of the organization leading this, has just been replaced with a new person.) All of this is documented here, and by googling.
Also, something I reported on here three years ago which you can read from Oct. 29, 2013 when John Deasy’s contract was due to be renewed at LAUSD. Some members of the BoE who were pro charter schools, worked with United Way and other questionable “charities” to influence this contract renewal. They orchestrated a huge street theater demonstration, very costly, and some of the BoE colluded with then to allow only bussed in PAID actors called “community members” to speak before the Board in favor of Eli Broad’s puppet, Deasy, who is now still under investigation by the FBI and the SEC. Deasy had gotten a 91% no confidence vote by the teachers in the district. In addition, Ben Austin of Parent Revolution was in the lead in producing that show. (both now work full time for Broad trying to start Veraga-like lawsuits nationwide.) I will not spell it all out again for if you are interested, it is easy to find all the info. These are inner city exemplars of people who I feel should not be registered automatically to vote. People who would sell themselves, sell their vote, are mendacious and are not informed voters.
Kinda’ think women who say “my husband will tell me how to vote” fall into this category too. That is why I suggest a short test, not of literacy, but of government. If you don’t know who the current Prez and VP are how can you be a knowledgeable voter? This does not require literacy, just a clerk asking a question.
Also, kinda’ like the women I run into who say, “my neighbor said vaccinations are the government’s way of poisoning us” so I am voting against vaccination. We had a statewide measles epidemic last year due to this kind of uninformed thinking.
I have seen too much of these sorts of things going on in my community….it is so widespread not only in the inner city, but on my block in a middle class neighborhood.
Expanding on empiric observations dealing with Parental Involvement and Human Relations studies for close to 50 years, I think not every person is honorable, nor has pure motives, nor offers a legitimate vote. Therefore, I think to automatically register everyone to vote is specious. People who want to vote are obvious, they find a way…they deserve to vote. People who sell themselves and their vote for cash, or a party, or a trip to Disney Land, as a voter, do not.
At the DMV, where I spent over 4 hours on my last birthday waiting to renew my driver’s license, it was another education. Too long to go into details, but many people brought friends/relatives with them to help them take the test. I was surprised that was allowed, since many were just given the answers by their helpers. If you drive the California freeways you know the dangers that this causes. (As some of you know, I was almost killed last Dec.21 by a woman who ran a red light.) No, I do not want to see people automatically registered to vote,
I suggest you watch a mass swearing in of new citizens. It is an amazing and exhilerating experience. These folks from all over the globe have studied at high schools and city colleges, learned about our government, and swear to uphold the laws of the land. They of course should be voters. Those who only watch TV sound bites and have no interest in voting unless they get a payoff, or are told by their local bosses and others, how to vote, do not.
Only my opinion after years of observation and thought. I am a total NERD and it is a lifetime habit to find almost everything to be a research project…so sorry to be so verbose but this is my rationale.
Jennifer, I refuted the two examples you gave – sure, let’s get bi-partisan with Tom De Lay! – you provide nothing more to support your claims about Hillary’s (modest, at best, when looked at selectively, quite awful when looked at holistically) accomplishments except from the anti-teacher, anti-public education Barack Obama, and you then state that I’m the one who hasn’t done “the research.”
Please, continue: you make my arguments for me…
Forgot…if you have too much time on your hands and want to google me for many pages, you can see that at my house, there are many people ostensibly living here and are registered to vote with my address…all have different names than mine…none of are anyone I ever heard of.
My son had this same experience at his house. We both called the Registrar of Voters and were each told that this is common in our state, but there is NOTHING they can do about it.
Perhaps this is unique to So. California…or not.
Ellen thanks for the detailed response and info. Tho registration & voting fraud/ shady dealings have been around for a century, it’s the ‘legal'(?) stuff that sticks in my craw. Voteria, indeed. Should have been shut down by cops. And our national disgrace, deregulation of campaign donations, culminating (I hope– can it get worse?) in the Citz Unit decision.
But I really can’t see how adding any hurdle to voter registration improves things. The potential for abuse/ unintended consequence seems much higher than some speculated benefit, & smacks of elitism. We are already elitist enough by requiring voters to choose to register. And among the lowest-% registered OECD nation. 12 (1/3) of the OECD nations have automatic registration including most of Europe and all of Scandinavia. And a few more (UK, Australia, Canada, Mexico) get higher registration by aggressive enrollment or making registration easy & convenient.
Bethree5…I appreciate your response. I do want to point out that although many mainly African and Asian countries let, expect, all residents to vote (some do not see females as citizens worthy of voting) despite lack of access to media propaganda/influence/information/literacy, and also Scandinavian countries voter rules, in the US things are very different in terms of residents and citizens. Particularly in California which is both the most populace state in the Union, and the most ethnically diverse. The countries you mention tend to have residents/citizens from mainly the same gene pool…we in the US are far from that happenstance.
LA is totally Balkanized with endless communities like Little Tokyo, Little Armenia, Little Viet Nam…etc. It presents a far different picture in terms of voting patterns.
Focusing on my home state, we are now a “New Majority” state, and our state legislature reflects this change in demographics with a high, near majority, representation of Latino legislators.
The problem I see in all this is the trickery (and even fraud) that has become vast in our voting situation. When people are urged to register with false addresses, and probably false names, and when they are paid to do so as with Voteria, democracy has gone down the toilet. There is no rationale that I find acceptable for this sort of manipulation of elections. And as I have said before, this is rampant in California and has a long history.
Standards of running elections have changed dramatically in the past thirty years. There is much more to this than I will write about here, but if anyone is interested in more conversation on this issue, please contact me at
joiningforces4ed@aol.com
I did notice that many, at my suggestion, did check my own personal phony registrants at my address…so I hope you have an updated view on my reality as to what has happened to the democratic process in voting. If you are in California, I suggest you check your own home records and see who is listed at living at your address. Please let me know what you find.
I hate to break it to him, but at this point what we have are two different flavors of the corporate party, it doesn’t matter who gets elected in that regard, there really isn’t an ‘LEV’ this time around. Get your head out of the sand, Naom. The onus of changing things is going to fall squarely on the shoulders of our citzenry.
This is true James…and it what we have all been agonizing about.
However, the points made by Chomsky, and by Reich, and by many other Dem and Repub educated and serious thinkers, is that question, who will be less dangerous in dealing with the end game?
First, with the economy and trade, second, with all the collective human needs of our society like health care, education, Social Security, etc., and, 3) but most dangerous, with foreign policy, and with nuclear power.
If tRump says as he did, “if we have the bombs, why shouldn’t we use them”,…to most people that shows a deranged mind. No need to repeat all the nefarious things he has done over his lifetime as a huckster.
Hillary is far from a sterling choice…but she can beat tRump. Jill Stein cannot. And Jill is not even on the legislative learning curve.
However, Johnson and Weld, who were both Governors, do present a rational alternative and are only running as Libertarians because they could not run as Repub. Sound minded Repubs are turning to this choice, which should split the Repub vote enough for Dems to win.
So, to grounded voters who want to have the nation in the hands of Dems, Hillary is the only choice. We all have the added responsibility of seeing to it that other Dems on the ticket get funded and supported and elected, so they can watch Hillary like hounds watching a rather fetid rabbit.
i am with Chomsky and Reich on this one.
Ellen, Clinton is the lesser evil, barely. But James is right about the corporate uniparty. The LEV is not to save the country; it’s just to hopefully put off saving the country until a later date while keeping it from falling of a cliff into the fascist unknown. The corporate uniparty has to remain part of the conversation, though, now that it is finally part of the conversation. Vote LEV, but do it with your middle finger. And grumble loudly while you do.
Dear Leftie and James…it is Sophie’s Choice…but I watch the tRump children and suspect that in a few years we will see Donnie Jr, and Eric running, and maybe Ivanka. If you listen to what they say, and read their faces and their eyes, they are even scarier than their father. They seem to truly believe they are American royalty and they are stony faced, and to me, hard hearted and over bearing. These could be the next candidates for major office, since they would NEVER start at the bottom.
Gen X, you say, Leftie??? More money uber allas, and fascistic determination and sense of entitlement…I say.
James
How do you propose that change occurs. Better yet what have you personally done to this point, to encourage that change. Yes both parties pursue neo-liberal economic policy. Obama and the Clinton’s have been atrocious .
Here is the difference, one is a Mac truck rolling down at you at 80 mph on a narrow street, the other a golf cart at 20 mph. Chomsky has been around long enough to know that .
Ask those workers in Wisconsin if elections matter. You can kiss the Union movement Nation wide good bye, if Trump gets elected. Ask those suffering in Detroit or Flint … ….if elections matter . . Don’t worry about Black lives Mattering, they wont.
Kiss the court good bye for another 30 years . You think your civil liberties ,your first and fourth amendment right are being infringed now . you ain’t seen nothing yet . I hope your White and Christian .
Because those “other people ” are a threat, rapists and terrorists .
I disagree with Ellen and Diane on Trump being more dangerous than than Clinton on foreign policy . They are both very dangerous
for different reasons .
It is in domestic policy and civil liberties that Trump frightens me.
Perhaps your too young to remember the McCarthy era or to have studied it . I narrowly missed it too, but had an older brother whose ex fiancee’s father was black listed. Attorney General Rudy Giuliani will give many a refresher course at Guantanamo bay . Secretary of Labor Paul LePage or Walker will ensure that defenseless workers have their working conditions protected.
Secretary of the Treasury Carl Icon will regulate the corporate raiders on Wall Street.
Drop the corporate and the top personal Income tax rates and who will shoulder the burden. I have been waiting for thirty five years for “Trickle Down the only thing we have gotten is pissed on ”
Lastly, perhaps you don’t remember, Ronald Reagan took Carters Solar hot water panels off the White House and gutted solar and alternative energy research. Donald Trump has a promise for you , You may not pay the price for his Presidency but for certain your children and grand children will pay dearly.
There are lesser evils
Ellen,
The Trump kids will inherit all the gold plated billboard size signs bearing his name one day. Good for them. They are an embarrassment to my age, as are arcade video games and Sixteen Candles. The Trump kids will not inherit a gold plated wall across the southern border, though. I’d bet my bottom bankrupt business on that.
As much as I highly respect Dr. Chomsky both professionally and politically, his advice to those who live in historically blue states to sit this one out or to vote for Jill Stein is imprudent and questionable.
Voting for a third party candidate at least means you’re exercising your rights, and can register your frustration with the “top tier” candidates, but let us not forget what happened when Nader took the presidency away from Al Gore? Staying away from the polls is worse yet, regardless of how “blue” your state might be. What the “left” has to do to show this lying, narcissistic charlatan of a candidate and the GOP in general, as well as his adoring right-wing-nut fanatics, is to show up in very large numbers and vote Democratic across the line. We need to not only defeat the Trumpster by a complete blow-out in the popular vote, but also in the electoral college vote. We need to change the do-nothing GOP Senate and House from red to blue. That’s what will move the progressive agenda forward – nothing less. And BTW, I gave numerous small contributions to Bernie from the time he announced last year, and went door-to-door for Bernie this spring (participating on this level for the first time in 40 years), but I do know that we will have another 4 to 8 years of partisan, hate-filled gridlock if Congress remains in the hands of the opposition party.
Let’s hold our noses and vote for Hillary if that is how we may feel (LEV or not) – but let’s also do whatever we can to “throw the GOP bums out” by voting Democratic in November!
“. . . but let us not forget what happened when Nader took the presidency away from Al Gore?”
That particular meme has been totally debunked from the day of the 2000 election by these two facts:
1. Gore didn’t even win his home state which would have given him enough electoral votes even with Georgie the Least stealing Florida.
2. Over 200,000 registered Florida Dimocraps voted for Georgie the Least. If just 5% of those turncoats had voted for their party’s candidate, Gore would have easily won Florida.
Those who can’t or refuse to understand history, well . . . I’ve got some great white sand beach ocean front property over at Lake of the Ozarks in Central Missouri for sale cheaply. Call now!
Please knock off the long-debunked canard that Nader cost Gore the election. What about the fact that 300,000 registered Democrats voted Republican? What about the fact that Gore was riding on the coattails of a president who, at the time, was wildly popular? What about the fact that that Gore couldn’t even take his own state? Nader had nothing to do with any of that.
Bush won Florida by 537 votes.
Nader got more than 97,000 votes.
Nader spins it that he was not a spoiler. He does not want to go down in history as the guy who elected GWB. Can’t say I blame him.
It’s a false meme Diane.
Duane,
You can’t convince me that Nader was not a spoiler. His 97,000 plus votes were drawn more from Democrats than Republicans. Bush won by 537 votes.
And if you take into account that Gore couldn’t/didn’t even win his home state which would have won him the election as stated above. Gore lost it, not Nader. See the hundreds of thousands of registered Florida Dims, turncoats who voted for Bush, i.e., Gore couldn’t convince registered Dim voters to vote for him. No, Nader did not hand the election to Georgie the Least, Gore lost it (but certainly not fair and square). Gore could have insisted on a full recount but chickened out. He capitulated to the Bush political machine.
Duane,
Gore’s loss of Tennessee had no bearing on what happened in Florida.
Nader won 97,000 votes in Florida.
Bush won by 537 votes in Florida.
If only 1,000 Nader voters had voted for Gore, he would have won the presidency.
The world might look very different if Gore had won Florida.
Tennessee is irrelevant.
No, Tennessee is not irrelevant. When a candidate cannot win his/her home state that says something in and of itself about the candidate.
And if only 1% of those turncoat Dims had voted for Gore then he would have won. The assumption that the Nader voters would have voted for Gore isn’t necessarily true. Those same votes my have gone to Georgie the Least. And in fact we’ll never know how the Nader voters may have voted.
Politics do indeed make for strange bedfellows and opponents who otherwise generally agree on many things in life!
Duane,
Florida was the crucial state. Stop changing the subject.
Nader got 97,000 votes in Florida.
Bush won by 537 votes.
Do you think most of the Nader votes would have gone to Bush? I don’t.
I’m not changing the subject since the subject is that supposedly Nader “cost” Gore the election. Last I looked the election was throughout the country and not just Florida. And Gore blew it in Tennessee. One can make up any number of scenarios that didn’t happen. What happened is that Gore, unfortunately lost, which I believe was due more to his and the Dims inability to win the voters over throughout the country. To lay it all on the Nader votes in Florida is ludicrous and fanciful thinking.
To answer your question: We don’t know. . . and that is the point because the assumption that a large enough portion of those votes would have been for Gore and not the Least is pure speculation. I prefer to reference the fact of 200,000 turncoat registered Dims who voted for Bush, which you seem to ignore, that gave him the Florida “win”.
I know we don’t agree on this one. C’est la vie. Así es la vida. That’s life, eh!
Duane,
I sat up all night on election night 2000. Not because of Tennessee but because of Florida, where the election was decided
And that is fine, but it doesn’t add much to the argument since the whole country decides the winner. Florida was just one of many states.
Let’s try this analogy: The Cardinals score 4 in the first, 3 in the seventh and 1 in the ninth. Gibby blanks the Yanks for 8 innings but the Yanks rally in the ninth for 7 runs and have the bases loaded two out. The Cards call a conference on the mound and play resumes. Yogi Berra on first leads off, but wait it’s the old hidden ball trick and he’s tagged out by first baseman Bill White and the Yanks lose.
According to your thinking the only inning that “counts” in the game is the ninth. Nope, don’t think so. Each inning like each state in that election was important to the “game” and Gore lost the whole election not just because he was robbed in the ninth by a trick play.
Thank you for piping up, Diane. Numbers don’t lie. Twist it how you will, that election was so close it ended up in the Supreme Court. Somebody show me how, had Nader not been on the ballot, those 195k ballots– even if 1/2 had sat home & only 100k added for Gore– wouldn’t have tilted the election to Gore.
Nader got 97,000 votes in Florida. Bush won by 537.
Huh. I thought George won the election because Gov Jeb! appointed the state election commissioner who refused to count all the ballots and disenfranchised the voters.
That too.
I would not be logically incorrect if I argued that the Bush administration was a result of Non Nader Voters. Our paradoxical voting system gives us an easy way to blame the minority for problems that were created by the majority.
I have pointed out before on this blog that Tennessee had swung to the Republicans a decade before the 2000 election. The combination of migrating republicans and the fundamentalist leaning toward Bush was responsible for Gore’s Tennessee defeat. Ironically, some of Gore’s contributions to helping fund infrastructure as a rep and then as a senator laid the groundwork for this in-migration and ultimate defeat.
Obama has said it best: “Look, Hillary’s got her share of critics. She’s been caricatured by the right and by some folks on the left; accused of everything you can imagine – and some things you can’t. But she knows that’s what happens when you’re under a microscope for 40 years. She knows she’s made mistakes, just like I have; just like we all do. That’s what happens when we try. That’s what happens when you’re the kind of citizen Teddy Roosevelt once described – not the timid souls who criticize from the sidelines, but someone “who is actually in the arena…who strives valiantly; who errs…[but] who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement.” President Obama 2016
We here all love President Obama. After all, he’s the one who said: Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what your country can do for Bill Gates. And, the only thing we have to fear is school itself. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this public institution!… Great guy. Love him.
That was good.
@ Left Coast Teacher:
TAGO!
Ouch
Jennifer Hall Lee
Voting for her is one thing, having to defend her quite another. Many politicians have been in the National spot light for many years .
Few have provided the ammunition to their opponents on the Right and the Left that the Clinton’s have. We can skip the list for now. Till the next email dump.
Joel Herman,
I have seen the Hate Hillary websites. Most if not all of what they print are vicious lies. Yet they have been spewing their conspiratorial garbage since 1992–first, she was a dangerous radical, now she’s a tool of Wall Street–and people on the left imbibe what the nutty right says. They hated her when she tried to expand healthcare to all the uninsured. They hated her when she showed she had a mind. They hated her hair styles. They accuse her of multiple murders. Now they say she is demented.
She is a brilliant and experienced woman. She was a good senator for New York. She was not a showboat. She has poise and dignity.
There is no comparison between her and Trump. He is an ignorant P.T. Barnum who has hoaxed white working class men into thinking he cares about them. Yeah, he cares about them like a casino owner cares about the next chump to be fleeced. He cares about them like he cared about the gullible people who paid their savings to Trump University and got nothing. The biggest con job of all is his convincing millions of people that he gives a hoot about them. His tax plan wipes out the estate tax, which does nothing for the middle class or working class. The current exemption for the estate tax is nearly $11 million. Eliminating it is a boon to Very, very rich people whose estates are larger than that.
I don’t know what Hillary will do about education. She certainly will be better than Trump, who loves charters and no doubt will favor vouchers, like the rest of the GOP.
SHE WILL BE 100,000 times better than Trump as president because she has two things that he doesn’t have: knowledge and sanity. Unlike him, she thinks before she speaks. She is not impulsive.
Our allies around the world are terrified of Trump.
I hope the questions in the debate are substantive. Imagine if a questioner said: “Do you think that Title 1 of ESEA should be overhauled?” What would Trump say? He wouldn’t understand the question. The same thing could happen in every issue of government policy: he has no idea what the government does, what it might do, what it should not do, what the Constitution requires.
I will vote for Hillary with enthusiasm.
And Diane..et al…the amazing lack of intelligence of too many voters is hair raising. I hear and read about all those who shout that Obama is a Commie. Who? What? How could so many of us here know that Obama is an insider Wall Street guy with his many Wall Street appointments like Holder, Immelt, Rahm, Furman, Orszag, MJ White, Yellen, Geithner, Duncan, on and on, and his close advisors, Summers and Rubin…and some wonder why I question if everyone deserves to vote, assuming wrongly that I mean only inner city people. Feel even more upset by the Duck Dynasty types who are too ignorant and bigoted to understand anything but their version of the Second Amendment.
Re: The dumb Duck Dynasty types.
“Their version of the 2nd amendment” is the one currently endorsed by SCOTUS.
Mrs. Clinton doesn’t apparently support the individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and if elected would probably appoint justices who would overturn it when another case is brought and might even push through universal background checks (i.e. national registration), which is what permitted Australia to succeed in confiscating all long guns.
A good enough reason in itself to vote for her if you take the “militia” view of the 2nd amendment.
I, however, stand with the Duck Dynasty guys, and find Mrs. Clinton’s softness on the individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment sufficient reason in itself to vote for Mr. Trump (who was endorsed by the NRA).
If you believe in the individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, Trump is the only one you can with conscience vote for, painful as that choice may be.
What a terrible world it would be if everyone carried a gun. There would be road rage killings daily, by the thousands; shootings in supermarkets and malls. I say ban all assault weapons. Ban all guns that shoot more than one bullet at each trigger pull. Background checks for all gun buyers. My personal preference would be to limit gun ownership to the police and military. They are our militia. Enough death! (Maybe an exception for hunters, but only single shot rifles.)
I wouldn’t expect anything else of you, Harlan. Through the years you have been consistent.
Somewheres near four score and several years ago our fathers and mothers brought forth on this continent a public school system, conceived in Democracy, and dedicated to the proposition that all public schools are inherently created equal. But Bill Gates is way way smarter than our fathers and mothers. He’s a super duper coding genius. And he’s got tons of money to throw around. So believe this, kids. No matter what happens in any election, this nation, under Gates, shall have a new birth of charter schools to profit Bill — and education of the people, by the computer, and for the billionaire shall not perish from the earth.
Try eight score
I know. Tried to downplay the incorrect math with “somewheres near.”
dianeravitch
There is no question as to how much harm a Trump Presidency will do to the Nation. The question is how much harm a Clinton Presidency will do . It is very easy to reach across the isle when those on the other side of the isle get everything they want . Do we want to rehash the Clinton Presidency . I loathe the Republicans for many reasons their disregard for the poor and working class of this nation and there racist demagoguery,long before Trump, has been despicable. But what I hold against them the most is forcing me to come to the defense of Bill for his personal indiscretions which were none of my Business.
It is policy that counts and on that note I will defer to Michelle Alexander or Robert Scheer, Dean Baker,or Thomas Frank .Even Stieglitz a Clinton supporter chooses to oppose most of her/his/his economic agenda. Want to talk about Trump, NAFTA… neo-liberal policy that devastated the working class is his incubator. Technology and innovation was not responsible for the manufacturing decline from 97 to 2007 policy was. Productivity growth was actually slower than in earlier periods. We can state here that the Republicans seek to dismantle Public Education, do we want to argue how far they would get without Democrats leading the charge. As you pointed out about our dear friend Andrew who preferred to work with a Republican majority after the Democrats finally took charge of the NY senate. Who set the dog loose against NY teachers.
But lets talk about the emails because they don’t bother me . What they show is a politician who had a siege mentality, seeking to keep her dealings public /private secrete . I have no problem with that . It shows a politician who was using her position to dole out patronage to those who support her monetarily and otherwise. I have no problem with that . In general it shows a politician who parlayed her public position into tremendous personal wealth, again no problem with me . But then you are talking to someone who once was intricately involved with a NY labor leader/Assemblymen who was indicted on 95 counts. In reading the indictment I could dismiss about 93 of them. Including the skimming of money from the little league(hint) that he fabulously enriched, those kids had gold plated cleats. The one or two that I could not dismiss, was when he betrayed those workers he was representing ,selling out their interest for a pot of gold.
Which brings us back to the emails they don’t bother me . They provide fodder for her opponents and if her opponent wasn’t Trump the calls would be for her!! to drop out of the race and give the party a fighting chance. What bothers me is when policy is influenced, so perhaps we can talk to Elisabeth Warren about the Bankruptcy bill. Yes the speeches are important we already know what was in them, if we didn’t like Trumps Taxes they would have been released. “They do not give money for the prose” Ellen detailed the absurd charge that “Obama is a Commie. Who? What?”… The list that followed in her post is why they give money.
But before you and Ellen posted this link I did and I will be voting for her because .
“4) The suffering which these and other similarly extremist policies and attitudes will impose on marginalized and already oppressed populations has a high probability of being significantly greater than that which will result from a Clinton presidency.”
6) However, the left should also recognize that, should Trump win based on its failure to support Clinton, it will repeatedly face the accusation (based in fact), that it lacks concern for those sure to be most victimized by a Trump administration.
But as I stated don’t ask me to defend her record, because like that Labor leader, the picayune amount of good that She/He/He did was far outweighed by the harm done. Which is kind of what Miriam Edelman said when she said she is a personal not political friend.
Joel,
I agree with your critique of the Dem leadership. Obama and Duncan were a nightmare for education. I hope Clinton will not surround herself with Obama retreads.
Show me a politician who has never done a favor for a friend or constituent or ally, and I will nominate him or her for sainthood. That’s everyday politics. At this moment, I am counting on an elected official to help me get my parking permit for disability renewed.
If a politician is corrupt or steals, they should be in jail, not in office.
We are faced not between a choice of perfect and less perfect, or godsend evil, but between fallible human beings. Choose one or none.
It’s more than a little funny (no, not really) and obtuse that, on a blog that regularly warns against the privatization of education, few seem to have a problem with the fact that Hillary privatized her email system as Secretary of State.
What would have been the response here if Joel Klein, Cami Anderson or John Deasy had done likewise?
Whatever the reason (and all the talk about Chelsea’s wedding and other personal matters was pure misdirection), that’s a profoundly anti-democratic (and typically Clintonian) thing to do, and the response here is… crickets.
It was Bill and Hillary Clinton who, for their political and financial advancement, separated the Democratic Party from its base in the Labor movement (disregarding the support of zombie opportunists like Randi Weingarten) and turned their back on workers and the poor. That process is now so far advanced that one can actually observe the contempt, via statements and body language, that contemporary Liberals (and conservatives, too, but that’s a much older story) have for working people, and the almost gleeful way they punch down on the white working class – the same way they talked about Black teenage “Superpredators” – using them as the Other to contrast with their cheap corporate multi-culturalism and misdirecting Identitarian politics. That contempt has been evident in policy for decades now, but at this point has become almost visceral, as if they think of themselves as a higher order of Humanity.
Affluent, “meritocratic” Liberals on the coasts seem utterly blind to this, and are perfectly happy to throw workers on the trash heap, but working people are not blind to this contempt, and if continually stepped on will pay it back in spades down the line, possibly with someone far more dangerous than Donnie.
Enjoy thinking, while you can, that your Whole Foods liberalism confers some kind of virtue upon you, while others are left in a ditch, because you may be horrified to see what emerges from the mud later.
Then again, that’s what militarized police and the prison-industrial complex (which Bill and Hillary helped create, and from which Hillary receives campaign contributions, by the way) is for, no?
Michael,
You have made yourself clear. You hate Hillary. You despise her. Point taken.
As for privatization, I strongly oppose privatization of public services. Her use of a private server was a stupid mistake which I am sure she regrets.
I don’t hate or despise her.
HU,
They won’t be confiscating my guns were that to happen. As far as they know (through background checks) I have five guns, three of which I have sold or given away so that leave me with two-that they know of, which will have been given away, ha ha, by the time something like that happens. Either that or I’ll be dead and one of my kids will have them and they won’t know which one has any.
Looking forward to shooting my just bought .22 revolver (with a bucket of bullets” for the first time later today. Put a beverage can on a branch and I’ll have at it and have fun!
And am looking forward to voting for the Green Party candidate Jill Stein on election day.
” Either that or I’ll be dead and one of my kids will have them and they won’t know which one has any.”
Just make sure to leave your kids a clear description of where you keep them, so nobody has to play a game of “find the guns.”
Oh, one knows, he’s the one who takes them apart before storing so they can’t be used without the other parts which are all over the place.
Diane, please don’t personalize my statements and try to make them into a “You despise Hillary,” smear.
I don’t hate her; I personally feel nothing at all about her, and base my opinions on observing her and Bill over the years, the statements they’ve made, the policies they’ve enacted, the interests they’ve served. Rarely, very rarely, have those interests corresponded to the progressive claims made by them and their supporters in public. They triangulated those away a long time ago, and, minus some votes that could have been cast by any generic Democratic office-holder, have faithfully served Mammon and Mammon’s defenders.
Hillary is obviously very intelligent, has tremendous perseverance, and I assume is quite pleasant to be with on a personal level, etc. But so what? That’s just a meritocratic version of “George W. Bush is the kind of person you’d like to have a beer with.” We can find many examples in history of awful leaders who were smart, hardworking, witty, and kind to children and animals, except when they were jailing or killing them.
Instead of refuting my statements – hard to do, since they are entirely based on facts – you retreat to the reflexive, “You’re a hater!” trope. Not so different, by the way, from what TFA people say when that organization is (accurately) criticized.
In fact, I think the vicious misogyny and deranged hatred of Hillary plays into her hands, as many others have noted, since it makes it easy to dismiss legitimate criticism of her. Your response to me is a case in point.
So be it: I loathe Donnie and the bigotry – long dog-whistled by “respectable” Republicans, yet never, ever called out by the Clinton’s – he enables, but I dislike deception of any kind, especially from people who falsely claim to be my ally.
Donnie is correctly seen as a con man and a nasty piece of work, but we are unfortunately faced with an alternative whose career is little more than a brilliant film-flam job, whereby throwing her political base under the bus, time and time again, is magically transformed into “a lifetime of fighting for women and children.”
By all means, vote for Hillary to keep the Worse from happening, but spare yourself and others the confusion and “disappointment” when the inevitable betrayals pile up after January, if not sooner.
Michael,
I apologize if I misread the tone of your comment.
I won’t feel betrayed by Hillary on the subject of education because my expectations are low.
On the other hand, I do expect she will work diligently to fulfill her promise to make public college tuition-free, to support teachers instead of punishing them, to protect and expand health insurance, to support the right of workers to bargain collectively, and to act aggressively to protect the environment. I have lots of high expectations for her, but I reserve judgment in the sphere I know best.
As I have often said, every election comes down to a choice between two people (or only one). In this case, it is an easy choice. I learned long ago not to believe that any one person elected president will transform our government. That requires activism at the local and state levels too. Join Bernie’s revolution.
Diane, I completely respect your and anyone else’s decision to vote for Hillary Clinton, in order to prevent Donald Trump from assuming (in every sense of the word) the Presidency.
I may find myself doing the same if circumstances change suddenly (as they sometimes do, especially in what so far has been an all-bets-are-off election year). I should also say that I am mindful of the dangers and pitfalls of a “Plague on both your houses” attitude during elections.
We happen to disagree about Hillary’s character and history, and how that history is portrayed; so be it. I still value your blog, my opportunity to speak freely on it, and your efforts to save public education.
Thank you, Michael. We always learn from your comments and your wisdom. Dissent always welcome, except from the paid trolls that visit with regularity.
dianeravitch
“Show me a politician who has never done a favor for a friend or constituent or ally, and I will nominate him or her for sainthood. That’s everyday politics”
Which is why I went through that story about McLaughlin and dismissing 90% of that indictment,like I dismiss the emails. It is policy that counts. So there no good choice ,but there is only one choice.
I am on board but the vertigo is tough to deal with. A few drinks after after filling in the scantron and things will look better . Then the harder work begins.
Joel’s, Duane’s and especially Michael’s comments really sing to me. Diane, thank you for respecting their opinions which I heartily share.
A Clinton win will be spun as a glowing reaffirmation of neoliberalism by our corporate media. Nothing will change. The DNC will continue to promote corporate Democrats, and the Republicans will continue to win state legislative seats and gubernatorial elections. Republicans now control both chambers in 30 out of 49 state legislatures, while Democrats control both chambers in 11, and Republican governors control 31 states. The Republicans will probably maintain control of the House, and the corporation-friendly Democrats in the Senate will quietly block any “progressive” legislation or Supreme Court nomination.
Keith, if that’s a Clinton win, then what is a Trump win?
You’re not going to see a perfect candidate here. Never in history has any one person appealed to every single person or group. Yet Trump would open the door to so many anti-progressive policies that you and I will have a much larger fight on our hands with him in office compared to Clinton. For one, and this is absolutely huge, collective bargaining will be undone with an anti-union appointment to SCOTUS. Friedrichs will no doubt appeal, and other suits like that one are just waiting in the wings for some political mojo. Should these lawsuits make it to the top of a Trump-era SCOTUS, we will see the final nail in the coffin for public education.
As all politics are local, grassroots movements that change the status quo are too–we need to see more allies in underling elections. A Clinton presidency can still allow for other viewpoints in government to be heard. A Trump presidency will give wings to the anti-worker, anti-child, anti-woman policies that his party thrives upon. Whether or not he’s 100% with the GOP (the Kochs reportedly are not endorsing him), he is easily manipulated by flattery and his ideas change with the wind as long as said ideas make him out to be a god among mere mortals in his own mind. We need a president with whom we can work to help continue to iron out the problems in this country and a candidate who actually can win the presidency. Electability is important here.
Bernie isn’t done yet, and neither is the movement he’s been building for years. This is why, above all, we need to keep Trump out of the White House and keep more candidates like Bernie working at all levels of government so that one day, the people will have a candidate who represents the best interests of society and the world, at large.
The Chomsky/Halle piece is one of the few honest, thorough, and morally compelling cases for Clinton. Not perfect, and still manages to downplay Hillary’s bad side, but it’s good enough for me.
I would have a lot more to say, but I’m still unsubscribed to this blog, and irritated at Diane’s 2016 political analysis. So my closing statement will be to somewhat-satirically blame everyone who didn’t vote/support Bernie Sanders in the primaries for a bleak future of humanity.
Ed Detective…what? why would you leave just from irritation? Your voice is important here. Please reconsider. And yes, of course I voted for Bernie.
Right On, Ed Detective. At least Bernie was honest about who he was, at least until he capitulated to the Clinton pressure. When a Bernie can sell out so disgracefully, it doesn’t give one much hope for a coherent left. Hillary sells US foreign policy for cash. Even Crazy Man Trump wouldn’t do that. At least he’s a patriot.
As for education policy, let the corporate reformers give her enough moola for the Clinton Foundation and she’ll sell public education down the river in an eye blink. We all know it. And have you guys the corresponding coin to bribe her the other way?????
She’s not in politics to do right by the people but to line her own pockets. And she’s corrupted Chelsea too, much the worse.
So sad. Democrats used to be virtuous.
Harlan,
You have been reading the Hate Hillary websites and seem to be suffering from Hillary Derangement Syndrome
Meritocracy
DAMmit.
Ellen,
Maybe irritation was the wrong word. More like strong upset. I’ll be back more often, eventually. Was thinking about re-subscribing after the November elections. Can always visit my blog or email me at eddetective@gmail
Shall be in touch Ed Detective…and you can reach me at
joiningforces4ed@aol.com
Two points, respectfully submitted.
A. As Professor Chomsky comes close to anticipating, a major,problem with his #4, and with politics in the U.S. in general, is the myopia of neglect of the international implications of presidential/congressional elections. When analyzing the number of people who would negatively be impacted by a Clinton presidency, we get far different numbers if we consider our whole planet. And the power the U.S. government has over all of our planet is so grotesquely immense that it is dishonest and misleading not to start from there. If anyone is going to argue that each of our votes is a morally responsible issue, I suggest the impact on our planet and its entire human population be the place we should start. This is not a secondary, “foreign policy” issue.
This is of critical importance because of its impact on B., which is actually my starting point re this election:
B. The most important discussion we should be having in the face of these elections is how to keep and build the movements for social justice under the imposition of all of the nonsense of this election campaign. The worst thing that could happen this election season would be for all of the social justice movements to collapse as either people jump on an electoral bandwagon as if their presidential candidate would solve everything, or that we would become diverted into fractious arguments and finger pointing and judge mental accusations against one another because of how each of us plans to vote and thereby undo all of the movement building which has been so promising in our recent world. When November happens, and then January happens, we will need to be in a position to keep going, not restart our essential work, taking on whoever is in the positions of power in this country. What this means for right now is to tell the truth about the real world (including Clinton’s actual record in relationship to our world, and who and what her “team” really are and do to the people and health of our planet) wihthout moralizing against people in our movements as they make their decisions on how to vote.
In a nutshell, keep building our solidarity in movement for social,justice, both global and U.S., be honest about what and whom we face, and keep our arms open to one another no matter how anyone chooses to respond to the U.S, elections.
Thank you, Kipp
Excellent comments Kipp…thank you. Moving forward in ‘negotiated’ solidarity is indeed the only rational choice.
It amazes me that her emails (the three of them with the small c) are an issue in such a time in our world. Her worked with women and children is not “minor” as one here wrote earlier. Where terrorists reign in this world, women are subjugated. This is why the rights of women is a one of the UN Millennial goals. The women in countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan are not reading Chomsky, but I can assure you many of them are shocked we have come this close to a Trump Presidency. The Pakistani women I talked with were shocked Bernie could have been the nominee. They know the work Hillary has done with women and men in these countries. She has put women first on our foreign policy agenda – and that fact doesn’t go unnoticed by women globally. This is the change. Moreoever, here is an interesting piece of information from today, an op-ed in a Utahn newspaper”Op-ed:
This lifelong Republican will be voting for Hillary Clinton”
“There have been Utah voices urging Utahns to either not vote or vote for a third-party candidate — on “principle” — but it’s really a binary choice.
It’s entirely possible that this election could turn on Utah’s electoral votes. Recognizing that reality, every Clinton vote is crucially important. A nonvote or a Johnson vote is a vote for Trump.”
Jennifer Hall Lee,
I have to share a couple of anecdotes with you.
The other day, I was walking on the street in Brooklyn and heard a mother talking to her two little girls, about 8-10. She patiently explained that a woman had never been elected president of the US. They couldn’t believe it.
Then in the park, walking the dog, I was suddenly besieged by three girls about 9 who wanted to pet the dog. They began chattering away, and one of them told me that she plans to be president one day, like Hillary. But if she can’t be president, she will surely be vice president.
I don’t have daughters, I have sons. But I was moved by these mini-conversations.
Jennifer…I am waiting and hoping to hear that Jon Huntsman, former Guv of Utah, will announce that he is NOT supporting tRump. It would be even better if he would vote Dem, but I suspect he might vote Libertarian for his two fellow governors. He is one of the few Repubs I respect.
Thank you Jennifer Hall Lee.
I whole heartedly agree with you.
It is devious part from Republican strategy that weaves and implants all make-up stories to harm Democrat Party Leader.
Look at Paul Manafort’s whose background is a MASSIVE web of deceit, and also who is Trump’s adviser/consultant.
My hope is that people or voters can show their strong support for Secretary Clinton who can bring back the balance and fairness in SCOTUS.
Last but not least, President Hillary Clinton can motivate more FEMALE Governors and Senators so that American legal system CAN BE SLOWLY ENHANCED for the recognition of third PARTY as THE THIRD MAJOR PARTY.
In short, Senator Bernie has succeeded in creating this movement for American People. Yes, all Bernie’s supporters have contributed to this possibility for the future Green Party being the MAJOR Party SOONER THAN THEIR EXPECTATION (= 4 YEARS, NOT 8 YEARS),
provided that Dr. Jill Stein shall run for Mayor and Governor ASAP. Back2basic
You ‘re absolutely right, Jennifer: “where terrorists reign,” look no further than Iraq, Libya and Syria for all the wonderful things Hillary has done for women and children.
Actually, we don’t need to travel that far to observe her work: just look at how many people are incarcerated in this country, thanks to her triangulating support of the crime bill. I’m sure all those children with parents in prison get on their knees every night and thank The Lord for everything Bill and Hillary Clinton have done for them.
Then there are the millions more children living in poverty in the US, thanks to her support for eliminating Aid to Families With Dependent Children, which removed the income floor for the working poor, as well as receivers of public assistance. How terrible that Trump did that to them!
Or the increased numbers of homeless children, homeless now because their homes were foreclosed, thanks to the legalized looting that followed the repeal of Glass-Steagall.
I have two daughters, and like them would very much like to have a female President, but not one whose entire political career – minus the deceptive PR – has prospered by advancing the pathologies of Patriarchy: greed, Social Darwinism and militarism.
Like I said previously, putting a staunch defender of the Overclass (and the sexism, racism and class warfare it fattens off of) in female drag does nothing for women and children, and is the kind of dishonest Identitarian politics that actually opens the door to a Trump, and eventually worse.
I do have daughters. And many nieces, and even more female students. When Hillary Clinton becomes president, she will not just be a woman. She will bring into office a legacy which includes a host of actions against women in many parts of the world. Such as Berta Cáceres, the Honduran environmental activist/leader who this year warned that the U.S. government, with Hillary Clinton’s leadership, had organized a coup in her country and encouraged the violence which shortly thereafter took Cáceres’ life.
I have met many women likelike Berta Cáceres — from U.S. women coal miners to South African freedom fighters, to women like Febe Elizabeth Velasquez murdered by death squads (financed by the U.S. government for organizing a union of Levis workers in El Salvador — who make far better role models than Hillary Clinton. And I am afraid that we have reason to fear that a Hillary Clinton presidency could end up repeating setbacks for women (and for our girls looking for encouragement) like those Margaret Thatcher made, as the woman prime minister of England who, among other things, brutally crushed the Women against Pit Closures as they stood and sat in and went to jail to support their husbands and sons in the British miners’ strike of 1984-85. As I travelled around England and South Wales with these women during the strike, I saw that to them, their daughters, and women and girls around their country had stopped thinking of Thatcher as having anything in common with them. They all refered to Thatcher bitterly as, just, “HER!”
The 2016 U.S. presidential election will go down in history for many reasons, including ignoble ones. People have to make their way through this almost surrealistic campaign as best they can, and vote however their conscience and perspective leads them. But if people vote for Climton in order to encourage girls to think big, please consider this: there are far more girls spread across this planet of ours whose families and sisters and mothers have suffered from war and deprivation, as a result of U.S. policies designed to keep or make things safe for “U.S. interests,” than there are girls who benefit from those policies Hillary Clinton has been a leader in making, and enforcing. I look forward to my daughters, and other people’s daughters across the U.S. and around the world, having the opportunity to learn from and work alongside those women, and men, who are working together to build the kind of world where all of us — not just those who rule the U.S. — can flourish.
Vote as you must, but with your eyes open, and your trust not in politicians, but in the potential of people organizing ourselves into the beloved community we can and must become.
Thank you for mentioning Honduras, Kipp, another notch on Hillary’s belt.
Add in the Clinton Foundation’s activities in Haiti, the impeachment of Dilma Rousseff in Brazil and the mounting manipulated shortages in Venezuela. It’s looking more and more like a rerun of that ’80’s show in Latin America, this time starring the elites instead of the military.
Kipp,
I have long abided by this axiom: put not your faith in politicians. You will never be disappointed.
And you model this for us. Thank you, Diane.
Kipp…after watching your passionate delivery on video, I am so thankful that there is a teacher who uses her real name and speaks truth on the court house steps. I applaud your walking and talking with honor. If you had been teaching in LAUSD, you would of course have been sent to teacher jail.
Diane, I appreciate that. There was recently a survey that showed parents with girls were far more committed to Hollary as President than parents of boys. So I appreciate your really listening to that conversation. Another generation of girls should not be growing up under an all male Oval Office. It’s wrong. As far as Honduras is concerned, Kipp, listen to Democracy now. Interview with Juan Gonzalez and Hillary Clinton
“HILLARY CLINTON: Well, let me again try to put this in context. The Legislature—or the national Legislature in Honduras and the national judiciary actually followed the law in removing President Zelaya. Now, I didn’t like the way it looked or the way they did it, but they had a very strong argument that they had followed the Constitution and the legal precedents. And as you know, they really undercut their argument by spiriting him out of the country in his pajamas, where they sent, you know, the military to, you know, take him out of his bed and get him out of the country. So this was—this began as a very mixed and difficult situation.
If the United States government declares a coup, you immediately have to shut off all aid, including humanitarian aid, the Agency for International Development aid, the support that we were providing at that time for a lot of very poor people. And that triggers a legal necessity. There’s no way to get around it. So, our assessment was, we will just make the situation worse by punishing the Honduran people if we declare a coup and we immediately have to stop all aid for the people, but we should slow walk and try to stop anything that the government could take advantage of, without calling it a coup”