It gets tiresome to read about the cheats, liars, grifters, and dishonorable people who rise to wealth and power. Thus it is a relief to read about a young woman who had neither wealth nor power, but something far more powerful: a moral core. A sure sense of right and wrong. Principles. Others could boldly lie or feign ignorance when testifying under oath. She couldn’t do it. She wanted to be able to look herself in the mirror every day without grimacing.
Ruth Marcus, the deputy editor of The Washington Post, wrote about her, a woman with more wealth and power than those she served because she has a clear conscience.
After I read the column below, I read the transcript of Cassidy’s interview with the January 6 Committee. She goes through the details of how she changed from a loyal partisan of Trump world to a renegade, more concerned with telling the truth than pleasing her handlers. She was without a job for a year, and she relied on a Trump world lawyer. He advised her to say as little as possible in answer to the Committee’s questions and to answer whenever possible, “I don’t recall.” He and others in Trump’s entourage promised to get her a good job, to take care of her, as long as she protects the team. They flattered her and told her that she’s doing a good job, she’s a member of the family, and they will always have her back. So much of it sounds like something out of The Sopranos. She wants to please them, but she also wants to tell the truth. At one point, as she is doing her best to please them, she admits that she is “disgusted” with herself.
A cynic might wonder why she had so many qualms about lying for a president who lied repeatedly every day. But then you remind yourself that she’s a young kid, not long out of college, working in a dream job. Of course she wanted to please her superiors in Trump world. Of course she was afraid that they would destroy her if she defected. But somewhere inside her was a moral core that required her to tell the truth.
Marcus wrote:
Cassidy Hutchinson knew better than to put herself in debt to what she called “Trump world.” As she would later testify, “Once you are looped in, especially financially with them, there is no turning back.”
But Hutchinson, who witnessed the final days of the Trump White House from her all-access perch as an aide to Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, had been subpoenaed by the Jan. 6 select committee. The deadline for turning over documents was looming, and Hutchinson was, she said, “starting to freak out.” One lawyer she consulted said he could assist — then demanded a $150,000 retainer.
So, the young aide, out of work since Donald Trump had left office a full year earlier, initially decided to turn to Trump world for help. Which is how she came to receive a phone call from Stefan Passantino, previously a lawyer in the Trump White House counsel’s office.
“We have you taken care of,” he told Hutchinson. When she asked who would be paying the bills, Passantino demurred — this despite legal ethics rules that let attorneys accept payment from third parties but only with the “informed consent” of their client.
“If you want to know at the end, we’ll let you know, but we’re not telling people where funding is coming from right now,” Hutchinson, in her deposition, recalled him saying. “Like, you’re never going to get a bill for this, so if that’s what you’re worried about.”
If Hutchinson’s live testimony before the select committee was riveting, her deposition testimony, taken several months later and released Thursday, is a page-turner: The Godfather meets John Grisham meets “All the President’s Men.” Before, we could only imagine how frightening the situation must have been for the 20-something Trump staffer. Now, we can read of her frantic search for help, and her terror as she contemplated telling the truth.
It is a tale, at least in Hutchinson’s telling, of Trump allies dangling financial support in exchange for unyielding loyalty. “We’re gonna get you a really good job in Trump world. You don’t need to apply other places,” Passantino assured Hutchinson. “We’re gonna get you taken care of. We’re going to keep you in the family.” The goal, as he set it out, was clear: “We just want to focus on protecting the President.”
It’s a story of meek compliance enforced by fear of consequences — and menacing admonitions to remain on board. “They will ruin my life, Mom, if I do anything they don’t want me to do,” Hutchinson told her mother when she offered congratulations about finally securing a lawyer.
The night before her second interview with the committee, an aide to Meadows called Hutchinson about her former boss: “Mark wants me to let you know that he knows you’re loyal and he knows you’ll do the right thing tomorrow and that you’re going to protect him and the boss. You know, he knows that we’re all on the same team and we’re all a family.”
Most vividly, it is a chilling account of questionable legal ethics practiced by Passantino who, in a plot twist worthy of a Hollywood scriptwriter, was the Trump White House’s chief ethics officer. Passantino is depicted repeatedly advising Hutchinson to fall back on an asserted failure to remember anything. “The less you remember, the better.”
Except Hutchinson did remember — and quite a lot. Such as the incident in the presidential limousine, as related to Hutchinson by deputy chief of staff Tony Ornato, in which an enraged Trump allegedly lunged at his lead Secret Service agent when he refused to take the president to the Capitol on Jan. 6.
When Hutchinson mentioned this episode to Passantino shortly before her first interview with the committee, “he’s like, ‘No, no, no, no, no. We don’t want to go there. We don’t want to talk about that.’” The committee, he said, “have no way of knowing that. … But just because he told you doesn’t mean that you need to share it with them.”
Deposition prep with Passantino seemed confined less to reviewing the facts than to instructing the witness in the art of declining to disclose them. “He was like, ‘Well, if you had just overheard conversations that happened, you don’t need to testify to that,’” Hutchinson said.
“Stefan never told me to lie,” she told the committee. “He specifically told me, ‘I don’t want you to perjure yourself, but “I don’t recall” isn’t perjury. They don’t know what you can and can’t recall.’” Hutchinson pressed him on this matter. “I said, ‘But, if I do recall something but not every little detail, Stefan, can I still say I don’t recall?’ And he had said, ‘Yes.’”
A week later, appearing before the panel, Hutchinson found herself peppered with questions about the Trump limousine incident. She kept saying she hadn’t heard anything like that — and Passantino sat silently by as his client offered testimony he knew to be false.
“I just lied,” a rattled Hutchinson told Passantino during a break. “And he said, ‘They don’t know what you know, Cassidy. They don’t know that you can recall some of these things. So you saying “I don’t recall” is an entirely acceptable response to this.’”
No, no, no. Lawyers advise their clients not to volunteer information — that’s appropriate. They instruct them to give limited answers, confined to the precise scope of the question — that’s appropriate, too.
But lawyers — at least lawyers who want to keep their law license — do not provide the kind of counsel that Hutchinson describes. There is no “overheard” or “I don’t recall” loophole if, in fact, you did hear something and you do remember it. Ominously for Passantino, the deposition transcript reveals that Hutchinson provided the same information to the Justice Department.
Passantino, who has taken a leave of absence from his law firm to “deal with the distraction of this matter,” said in a statement that he represented Hutchinson “honorably, ethically, and fully consistent with her sole interests as she communicated them to me” and believed she “was being truthful and cooperative with the Committee throughout the several interview sessions in which I represented her.”
In the end, Hutchinson decided she could not accept such advice and still look at herself in the mirror. So, she dumped Passantino and decided to spill what she knew to congressional investigators.
“To be blunt, I was kind of disgusted with myself,” Hutchinson said. “I became somebody I never thought that I would become.”
To read her deposition is to wonder: What do the others in the Trump crowd see when they look in the mirror?
A brave and admirable young woman. She and Liz Cheney and Fiona Hill–sheroes.
Thank goodness there are a few in the GOP with a moral compass including some state election officials and judges. Young people today should understand that the GOP of today is not the party of Lincoln or Eisenhower. It has been hijacked by ideological extremists and thuggish billionaires.
I know that there aren’t a lot of fans of Mitt Romney here, but I was in Massachusetts when he was governor, and he DID work across the aisle, and he DID show compassion, and he freaking invented what came to be called Romneycare (though the later denounced his own creation when running for the Reopugnican candidacy for president).
My only problem with Romney is his full throated endorsement of predatory capitalism. Alas, there are many Democrats who do the same thing…
Agreed, Paul.
cx: what came to be called Obamacare
Actually Heritage Foundation invented it.
Romney never invented anything …excepting his image as a goody two shoes friend of the common man.
I was also living in MA at the time, but we apparently had two completely different governors.
All I saw was a predatory fraud who had ruthlessly fired workers, liade up companies with debt and made off with bandits with the gold.(aka Bain Capital)
I tried to convince my “Democratic” housemates what a fraud he was but they voted for him nonetheless , over the Democratic candidate!!
One of the reasons I have never been overly impressed with the education system in MA is the people they choose for governor.
Plus, one of my housemates who voted for Romney once tried to tell me that microwave ovens make food radioactive.
I guess they don’t teach about microwaves for the MCAS test.
Plus, there were all those “”brilliant” people at MIT and Harvard meeting with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.
But to be fair, maybe they were not educated in Massachusetts.
Fun fact: Romney won a higher percentage of the popular vote in 2012 than the GOP presidential candidate in 2016, 2020
I have two daughters who are in their late twenties. As I watched Hutchinson’s testimony, looked at my wife, and said, she’s young! Reading about Hutchinson’s comments to her mother revealed a young woman well beyond her years in self awareness. Her responsibilities as an aid of 24 for the Chief of Staff to the President would overwhelm people twice her age. I’m sure there are legitimate organization with integrity that will hire her. She’s going to go down as the John Dean, without the ethical and legal baggage, of the January 6th hearings.
The not-so dirty little secret of Congress and the Executive Branch is that they mostly run on underpaid, overworked, life-inexperienced, very young staffers with overinflated egos and ambitions to further their dreams of DC-based careers. I was one of them once, but thankfully got away.
Cassidy was a former intern for Ted Cruz, and then she moved to the Trump administration. She got to see the “belly of the beast.”
She proved her loyalty to the worst Republicans, but reached a point where she couldn’t take one for the team.
Paul,
Cassidy says in her testimony that while she was trying to decide what to do, she ordered a book about watergate. She read it three times, she said. The person who inspired her was Alexander Butterfield.
A contemporary conservative with intellectual curiosity. Now that’s a unicorn…
I was wondering if there were any NFTs of Trump as a POS, but then I realized that all of them are of Trump as a POS.
Wonder when the lawsuits start about the misuse of copyrighted images in those?
Trump probably got the images from entities that could not afford to take him to court. He loves the poorly financed…
Ah yes, America: Best just us money can buy!
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10229753553050241&set=a.1200477179262
I am delighted that this young woman has chosen truth over coverup, just as I am delighted that Liz Cheney chose in a similar vein. I cannot help but wonder what they were thinking before things began to look like they had always been. Anyone remaining a Republican after Trump established his cabinet ignored hostility to the great majority of Americans and an affinity for the wealthy.
Same when Obama chose his. Wall street types.
On our holiday travels my wife and I have been listening to Michelle Obama’s “Becoming”. It strikes me that those who often start with idealistic outlooks quickly understand that getting in the game requires significant compromises. I also believe that if President Obama, who attended independent and Ivy League schools, had Michelle’s K-12 upbringing we might have seen a very different department of education.
The most evil thing his administration did was bailing out the banks without having the bailouts pass through the defaulting homeowners so that they could stay in their houses. This should have been a condition of the government assistance to the banks. But he chose to bail out the fat cats and let the little people lose their houses. An equity firm came into Tampa and bout a billion and a half dollars’ worth of the foreclosed properties and now rents them out to people who formerly were homeowners but now are tenants. Thanks, Barack. Do you look back fondly on this from your multi-million-dollar mansions?
I think, as in every presidency at least since Nixon, the team of horses lead the cart. Right after the crash of 2008, Dick Durbin came out of a hearing saying if there was ever any doubt that the banks run things, there should not be anymore. Ben Bernacke used his experience as a scholar of the Great Depression to drive the recovery. Once the weak recovery took hold, Obama displayed his cautious nature, as did many of the Democratic Senators, by giving into the Republican advocacy for austerity. Obama is a product of an education system that depends on the heft of Wall Street and banks. He is obviously an intellectual that knows little of the “common man.” This is a bipartisan epidemic.
Well observed, Paul
bout. In my haste, I committed simplified spelling. LOL
Perhaps I am incorrect, but the difference to me is that Trump’s team was made up solely of people who wanted their department to fail. Trump was elected by saying government was a failure, so his team was meant to make sure that happened.
Ironically, they succeeded at failing.
I’m not convinced Cheney’s thinking has changed that much. It was great that she drew the line at the Constitution, but what if a more agreeable Trump was at the reigns? I’m not sure she would have taken this stand…
We have a strange fascination in this country for people (especially in Washington DC) who aren’t quite as bad as the rest.
That would be Liz Cheney.
The people who only go 99% of the way to the Dark Side are worthy of praise because, “they could have gone all the way but didn’t! How admirable they are!”
Hit the right words…’moral code’ which is so lacking in our Western ‘civilized’ world.
As opposed to Russia, where pushing people who disagree with you down stairways (or poisoning them or shooting them or throwing them out of windows) is considered moral IF you are the chief crook.
Another one bites the dust! https://www.thedailybeast.com/pavel-antov-russian-lawmaker-who-slammed-putins-war-dies-in-window-fall
But as opposed to the US, Russia doesn’t go around the world bragging…And no comments on the CIA just disappearing people, no?
Does Vlad Putin have a moral core? Does he have any sense of morality about killing his boys and Ukrainian civilians? What are his moral and ethical principles? What should Russia brag about? How many children, old people, and innocent civilians it has killed in Ukraine? How much infrastrture it has destroyed? How many will die for lack of heat and water this winter?
Vera, your admiration for Putin the Butcher robs you of any moral standing to criticize the US.
And fishwife Zelensky…all he knows is to beg and order Europe around.
I commend this woman’s honesty, but maybe it would be nice if once in a while. We celebrated people who chose NOT to work for people like Trump to begin with.
There are lOTS of those people about. Far more than those who do.
And you really must ask yourself how many times she did the wrong thing before she finally did the right thing, simply to advance her career.
It didn’t take any great integrity and insight to understand beforehand that working for Trump might require doing unethical stuff.
The people who refuse to sacrifice their integrity for their career are more worthy of praise than those who give it up for career advancement and then later “see the light.” (Some because they recognize that the ship is going down and they don’t want to go down without)
Not accepting the puerile Common Core cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. Playing ball with the Great Gatesby’s Deformers is extremely lucrative.
Bob: thank you for that. Smart people are formidable opponents. You might have been able to put a little lipstick on the CC pig.
You’ve got my admiration , Bob.
But then you had it before you told me that.
And I’m not at all surprised.
And in general, I admire all the people who have chosen to teach because I know the sort of sacrifices they make on a daily basis and also know they have more integrity by far than any of the folks who ever worked for Donald Trump.
Diane could have a story every day about a different teacher with integrity and never run out of stories.
Sorry to say , but Cassidy Hutchinson could not put a candle to them.
Bob,
You made a major mistake.
You should have accepted the Common Coin..I mean Core like David Coinman, who made hundreds of thousands of dollars developing the standards and millions of dollars subseqhently as head of The College Board aligning SAT with the Common Coin.
You could have retired to an Island in the Caribbean and lived the life of luxury. Instead you live in Florida.
I’d venture to day that most people would never even consider working for Trump.
And I’d bet that is true even of most of the people who voted for him.
Most of the Trump supporters I know thought he hung the moon. They would have followed him into hell or bankruptcy.
I think you are wrong about that.
It’s funny. People say a lot of things but most of them are pretty honest and if someone told them they had to do something dishonest for their job, my guess is most would not do it.
It’s one thing when someone else (eg, a politician) does something dishonest , but something else when you are the one actually being asked to do something dishonest.
The DC crowd working for the president are not the norm. Not even close. These folks are obsessed with getting ahead.
DC is a very weird place.
If someone is not corrupted by it, they are lucky.
The weird thing about this is that she is being praised for simply doing what the law actually says she MUST do under oath: tell the truth.
That seems to be a pretty low standard.
Low standard or not, many in Trump world took the Fifth or remembered nothing.
Hutchinson was very unlikely to be charged with any crime as long as she told the truth.
But pleading the fifth or even testifying “I don’t recall” is not without danger.
There is always the chance that someone else who was there at the same time — or worse, a document that you wrote — that will make it clear that it is very unlikely that you actually do not recall, which puts you on the hook for a possible perjury charge.
Had she simply pled the fifth or replied “I don’t recall ” to lots of questions, she would have greatly increased her chances of being charged with aiding a coverup or something similar.
As I see it, this was very likely part of the calculus involved in Hutchinson’s decision to spill the beans.
I seriously doubt it was simply about her having a “come to Jesus” honesty moment.After all. She did work for Trump for four years.
SDP, if you read her deposition, she was concerned above all with being able to look into the mirror in the future. She felt “disgusted” with the person she was becoming. She had to come clean. There is a very youthful naïveté about her self-doubt.
And I’d bet this was all made crystal clear to her by the January 6 committee lawyers.
It’s funny how not knowing what other people have said to the committee behind the scenes can color one’s thinking.
It’s basically a version of the prisoner’s dilemma, but with an even greater incentive to tell the truth because there is no legal penalty at all if you do.
And the claim that she made her decision by reading about Watergate is pure theater, in my opinion.
Give me a break.
But I’m sure she’ll probably write a book and have a made for TV movie made about her.
All the President’s Women?
Once you are looped in, especially financially with them, there is no turning back.””
Sounds like she understand very well what the price would be.
And she was clearly concerned about the possible consequences of saying she didnt recall.
I just lied,” a rattled Hutchinson told Passantino during a break. “And he said, ‘They don’t know what you know, Cassidy.
As I said. There was a calculus involved.
And while it might have played a role, I
don’t buy that being able to look in the mirror was the only or even primary impetus for telling the truth.
She obviously got in way over her head and I am happy for her that she saw the way out.
But in my opinion people are going overboard with the praises.
“ She obviously got in way over her head and I am happy for her that she saw the way out.
But in my opinion people are going overboard with the praises”
I agree. She followed the law…as she and all are expected to do. Especially at that level.
Shows where we’re at, at this point in time. But I’m sure it’s hard to stand up against that kind of pressure.
Then there’s Pence and Barr: yep, you did the right thing. You stood up to a would be dictator. But what took you so long? And Mike: get a life.
I sure was glad, and I bet the Committee was too, that one person who worked in the inner sanctum was willing to tell the truth. Mark Meadows, her boss, didn’t. Pat Cipolone didn’t. No one close to Trump did. There must have been at least a dozen people with bigger titles who did not testify honestly.
“ I sure was glad, and I bet the Committee was too, that one person who worked in the inner sanctum was willing to tell the truth. Mark Meadows, her boss, didn’t. Pat Cipolone didn’t. No one close to Trump did. There must have been at least a dozen people with bigger titles who did not testify honestly”
This is true to the nth degree. Must be realistic. Big chasm between what “should be” vs the reality of what actually “is”.
Hopefully they’ll be placed on front of a grand jury, where thumbing their noses won’t be as acceptable.
But this is media driven, so what can we expect?
I would hope that everyone would tell the truth under oath.
Our legal system depends on it.
Yep,
But let’s imagine you’ve broken the law in a very significant way. And you’re up there, ready to testify with the threat of perjury hanging over your head if you lie.
I’ve not been in this situation, personally; but would imagine that the witness would be weighing the penalty for perjury vs the length of sentence should the evidence be truthfully conveyed and the verdict is “guilty”.
I would hope everyone would pay their taxes. Our government depends on it.
But Trump said it was “smart” to avoid paying taxes.
The criminal mind is what we’re dealing with here. Totally different world.
“ But Trump said it was “smart” to avoid paying taxes.”
Might be a point on which a lot of other people who aren’t being investigated would agree. But if we press it; they threaten to move their businesses elsewhere.
Though some obviously believe otherwise, telling the truth under oath is a not only the law, but it is a civic duty.
In my opinion, telling the truth was not really a choice for Hutchinson (or anyone else, for that matter — although some obviously thought it was)
All those who believe they can just say “I don’t recall” believe otherwise, but that doesn’t mean they are correct on their assessment that it is a choice.
Obviously , some lawyers think “I don’t recall” is tge way to subvert the whole testimony under oath process and tell their clients as much.
To me, that is far worse even than the folks claiming they don’t recall.
If tge members of the legal profession are corrupt, there is no hope for the system.
Is “I don’t recall” something they teach lawyers to advise their clients in law schools?
Does Harvard teach that?
How about Emory University Law School, where Pass anyone got his degree?
Do they teach the “I don’t recall” trick?
Not incidentally, anyone who has ever lied under oath (which includes saying I don’t decals when they do) should be barred for life from tge legal profession.
That shows a total disrespect for our laws and Constitution.
Passantino got his degree at Emory Law School
And “i don’t decals?
He ha ha
And lawyers who gave advised clients to say I don’t recall should certainly be disbarred.
My dad was a well respected lawyer who worked for the City of New York. He chose the profession after what he’d seen, liberating the concentration camp in Dachau, in WWII. Wanted to help people.
We needed to get some lumber for repairs to the house. Flipping through the Yellow Pages (remember the Yellow Pages?), we landed on “Lawyers”. After wading through that section for awhile, he said:
“This is disgusting. A sea of “Lawyers”. How many of them do you think could really care less about the law, as it’s written?”
Loved my dad. Such a good, honest man.
Traitor Trump is a crime family boss. When he was starting out in business, and failing as usual, he hung out with mafia crime families, and his mentor was Roy Cohn, the mafia’s lawyer.
Even in failures that lead to hundreds of millions of dollars and even a billion or more in bankruptcies, Traitor Trump always walked away with millions of dollars, because he was the CEO and he paid himself million annually with raises every year even as those businesses couldn’t pay their bills.
That is why US banks stopped loaning money to the traitor, and he turned to Germany, Russia, China, and the middle east (Arabia, et al).
I was thinking of the similarity of Americans financing the rise of Nazis in Germany (Prescott Bush and his ilk) and now Deutsche Bank funding American fascism through the Idiot. Oh, the irony!
Big banks are always involved in this stuff.
Wherever they see an opportunity to make money, they take it.
They eagerly do business with the mafia, drug cartels, billionaire opioid peddlars — you name it.
Swiss Banks are notorious for such stuff.
Hutchinson is a compelling character who brings to mind Michael Cohen – a long-standing Trump world goodfella who wound up repudiating the Putin puppet. I recall his reasoning being akin to “In the future I want to be able to look my daughter in the eye and say I did the right thing” It’s startling how amoral people become once a few rubles puts them on the RepubliQan slippery slope to authoritarianism.
In thinking about this more overnight, the most important part of whatever moral code Hutchinson may have is one we should all incorporate in our daily lives as we make resolutions for the New Year. Speak up. Never let a bigoted, false comment about politics, governing, and basic decency go by. Never say to yourself: “It doesn’t matter. They’re going to do what they’re going to do. There will always be (whoever).”
There are limits. You’ll have to play it by ear in the workplace. Sometimes silence is essential to feeding your family. But in your daily lives, whenever you can, when you go to a restaurant or any public space, speak up. Your families, your neighbors. Today I confront Republicans with their base cruelty and never let up. Grassroots, day-to-day democratic action is more essential than ever; we are on the precipice of losing our form of governing.
Here is a phenomenal example of human courage and one we should follow whether the issue is homophobia, public education, climate, police behavior, whatever. Let’s make 2023 a year to speak up.
Beautiful, Greg!
If you’re in Trump world, you’re only paying attention to the image that you see in the mirror. Not what’s behind it.
I was watching the evangelical minister who had had a turn of heart, in his congressional testimony. Talking about how he had “made a pact with the devil“ in order to overturn Roe versus Wade.
Jim Jordan treated him like he was a criminal. “You can lie to the media but you can’t lie here!”. But the fact is that he had been lying previously and I was telling the truth.
I’m so hoping these people end up paying (in spades) for their despicable actions. All of them. Their moral posturing at this point makes me ill.
The Oranges of January 6
Mirror mirror on the wall
Who’s the oranges of them all?
Donald Trump is orange King
Oranges of every thing