The claim that public schools “indoctrinate” their students is an integral part of the rightwing attack on public schools . This is a canard, a bald-faced lie.
The rightwingers insist that any efforts to teach tolerance and acceptance of others is “indoctrination.” Teaching children the importance of justice, they say, is “woke.”
This is the mission of public schools: to teach children academic skills and knowledge, of course, but also to teach them to work with people who are different from them and their family.
Teaching children to live, work, and play with others and to respect others is important to the functioning of our democracy. We are a people of many diverse origins, different nationalities, different religions. One of the implicit functions of public schools is to help bind us together as one nation, one people who share civic values.
Do you know which schools truly indoctrinate students? Religious schools. That is one of the essential goals of religious schools. They teach the doctrines of their faith. That is why they exist.
Yet, driven by religious zealots, red states are draining public money from public schools for religious schools.
The latest movement is to allow religious schools to become charter schools, enabling them to access public funds for teaching their doctrine.
CHURCH V. STATE — Oklahoma’s departing attorney general just took a big step toward achieving a conservative education milestone.
— A state law that blocks religious institutions and private sectarian schools from public charter school programs is likely unconstitutional and should not be enforced, Attorney General John O’Connor and Solicitor General Zach West wrote in a non-binding legal opinion this month .
— Their 15-page memo leans on a trio of recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions that favored religious schools and won rapt attention from conservative school choice advocates and faith groups. Oklahoma Republican Gov. Kevin Stitt said the advisory opinion “rightfully defends parents, education freedom, and religious liberty in Oklahoma.” Newly-elected state Superintendent Ryan Walters called it “the right decision for Oklahomans.”
— “The policy implications are huge because this is the first state that is going to allow religious charter schools,” said Nicole Stelle Garnett , a University of Notre Dame law professor and influential religious charter school supporter who wants other states to follow Oklahoma’s lead . “The legal implications are huge because this is the first state that says that they have to,” she told Weekly Education.
— Now it’s time to see if faith-based Oklahoma institutions successfully apply for taxpayer support to create charter schools that teach religion as a doctrinal truth just like private schools do today, and if legislators will push to change state law.Also watch if legal authorities in other Republican-led states pen similar opinions.
— Those looming decisions and court fights will set the stage for renewed constitutional debates about the line between church and state.
Make no mistake: the bogus claim that public schools “indoctrinate” students is being used to advance the public funding of religious schools whose very mission is indoctrination.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Critical thinking and close examination of history and the history of ideas are not indoctrination. However, If schools teach gender ideology (sex is a spectrum etc.) then I would call that indoctrination into an anti-scientific and dangerous belief system.
There is no such thing as a “gender ideology” that says that “sex is a spectrum.” This suggestion is incoherent.
Sex is the biological inheritance. It is not culturally acquired (except perhaps to some minor extent by epigenetic means affecting some secondary sexual characteristics). So, whether you possess ovaries or got a big boost of testosterone in the womb is a matter of your sex. And, of course, sexual characteristics do exist on a spectrum. There are intersex people, and people differ with regard to the amount of sex hormones they produce and in the nature/extent of the phylogenic expressions of their underlying genes.
Gender is all the culturally acquired behaviors and thought processes typically traditionally associated with people of a particular sex. It’s acquired, typically implicitly, from the ambient culture and, of course, gender expression can be adopted to a greater or lesser extent.
These are distinct phenomena. Confusing them, as you have, shows lack of understanding of the basic concepts.
So, for example, among the Masai, men are expected to wear bright colors, do small handicrafts, and to gather in small groups and gossip extensively–exactly the behaviors often expected of women in 1940s America. These are matters of gender expression.
“There’s something happening here, and you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?”
Brilliantly stated Bob.
Kind of you, ArtsSmart
You might find this lisa Selin Davis article useful
“School as Church”.
https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/school-as-church?r=1n66jv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Oh, yes, of course, school teachers are rubbing their hands together and gleefully thinking, here’s my chance to turn some kids trans. And then there are the Jewish space lasers. And the pedopizza parlors. And the George Soros caravans. And Obama turning people into zombies with contrails.
Let’s be clear about this. This piece is about intolerance and bigotry and the rest is just blah, blah, blah.
Sorry. The article is somewhat better than that. It’s an interesting read, but I still feel that it is undergirded by prejudice.
And no, people who are sexually male but have an adopted female gender identity should not compete in female sports.
English is blessed with lots of synonyms (which are all near-synonyms, of course). It would vastly improve clarity of expression if we adopted male and female for sexual inheritance and man and woman for gender identity. In that way, people could learn to distinguish the meanings. There is so much confusion on both the right and the left because of the failure to make this distinction between biological inheritance (sex) and acquired/learned/adopted characteristics (gender).
The distinction I am making is a sensible one because it carves nature at its joints, as the expression goes.
But sex is a spectrum. Look around and see the variations, which have existed for hundreds of years.
Um…actually not. Sex is binary and immutable. The “spectrum” is in how men and women express themselves – in attitudes, opinions, dress, style, and all the rest of the glorious diversity and difference of being either male or female.
Um…actually not. Sex is binary and immutable. We are all either male or female and no one has ever changed sex. The “spectrum” is in how men and women express themselves – in attitudes, opinions, dress, style, and all the rest of the glorious diversity and difference of being either male or female.
Also, religious schools are not known for teaching critical thinking. They typically teach the doctrines of their religion. That is their reason for being.
Bob, I check in on this blog at least several times each day. And, sometimes a piece of writing changes my day. Your comments here fit that bill. They got me thinking.
There’s not much I can add except to say that in the course of my teaching career, one of the most positive changes I’ve seen is the fact that so many more students have been able to be who they really are, in public. And, that’s the key word, PUBLIC -as in the public schools.
To turn back the clock on this great and wonderful change for these children and young adults would be devastating.
Amen to that, John. It’s a great birth of freedom. And all such dramatic social changes have been accompanied by random, rare excesses and much gnashing of teeth on the part of traditionalists.
And Youngkin’s administration, in Virginia, just threw out a several hundred page curriculum framework, developed by teachers and scholars for use in Virigina in favor of a 40+ page one developed by Hillsdale College of Very Simple Jesus Studies and the Fordham Institute for Securing from Oligarchs Big Paychecks for Officers of the Fordham Institute.
Here at Bob n Darlene’s Real Good Flor-uh-duh School, we dont indocinate yore childerns. We teeches them eternul truths from thruout HIS story, from the Creation to the Beast of the Apocalypso (Clinton and Biden’s Dimocrat Socialist Babylon) to the Rapshure. If’n the Arizonians wonts a copy of are curriculums, wrote by Darlene herself, I would be happy to send em won.
😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣
Same fer Okies.
The right wing seem to always project their baser instincts onto the left. The insurgence at the capitol was caused by Antifa; teachers are groomers; CRT is racist, and, of course, public schools indoctrinate young people. In truth, it is the right wing extremists that have these tendencies far more than those on the left.
Oh, the irony!
The playground bully is always the first to cry that someone else is doing wrong! I’ve seen this many, many times in 50 years of teaching young children! Never thought I’d see in in an entire political party.
Perfect, Ms. Monaco. Exactly.
Public schools “indoctrinate” (the proper word is TEACH, not indoctrinate) students to become life-long learners, to enjoy reading, and to think for themselves, so they won’t fall prey to autocrats like Traitor Trump, Demented DeSantis, A-Hole Abbott, Gang-Greene, et al. and become a dangerous ditto head thinking MAGA RINO.
BUT, teaching is half of the equation. Students have to learn and its up to them with support from their families to learn.
Teaching is one function of the education process.
Learning is the other one.
Teachers teach.
Students learn.
Indoctrination is not teaching. Indoctrination is what North Korea does to its citizens. I wonder if anyone here has read what North Korea did to our troops that became POWs during the Korean Conflict. The treatment was abysmal but there was also indoctrination 24/7 with loudspeakers shouting slogans blasting the US and its allies fighting them in Korea.
Some POWs ended up in Chinese prisoner of war camps after China entered the Korean Conflict with a milling of its troops. There was also a watered down form of indoctrination in those POW camps too, but the POWs were actually treated better than the ones in the North Korean POW camps.
And who loves North Korea and its brutal leader? Traitor Trump and anyone that is appealing to his MAGA RINO voter block.
Why do you think they call education “Liberal Arts?”
Classic, home, private and religious charters–why not? These parents pay taxes too and in addition, enhance their children’s education in other ways by personal involvement, time and financial contributions. If you teach public school children to “live, work and respect others.” Why don’t you recognize these alternative schools their right to exist?
Let the parents decide what moral, spiritual, sexual or general knowledge they wish their children (who they are responsible for) to be “indoctrinated” by.
Most people seem to think that others have the right to send their kids to religious schools. But they do not think that people have the right to make other people pay for this, especially when the religious instruction comes with a heavy dose of right-wing politics, sexism, racism, homophobia, and transphobia. Why should I pay for this?
You are welcome to teach any radical theories you care too that will pass state laws. There are many people who believe that public schools have gone far beyond classical instruction and are not impressed with NEA values or subject material. Parents pay their taxes and probably vote for various bonds and levies for the wellbeing of our society. They might even attend Board of Ed meetings and see their issues ignored. They do not like it. That is why changes occurred in Virginia and school districts across this country. Groups like Moms for Liberty and Turning Point have become very popular. NEA membership is dropping, and experienced teachers are leaving the profession in this state. This is a huge issue because the student population in my school district is decreasing for the other alternative schools and financial problems are expected. We do not have vouchers…yet. Pay attention to parents they are more traditional than you think.
April, what “radical theories” are you talking about?
I’m a bit confused.
And, who are all these “you”s that are being referenced?
Bob? Me?
More specifics would help here.
Like, what’s “classical instruction” and what qualifies as “far beyond”?
Thanks.
So, should Ayahuasca Churches be able to get taxpayers to pay for their schools? Satanist Churches? Neo-Pagan Norse Churches? Or just some religions? What if I started a school based on, say, the Eleusian Mysteries and the worship of Demeter? You good with paying for that with your tax dollars, April?
Of course, I’m in the minority. I think that teaching children religious superstitions, i.e., mythologies as science, is a variety of child abuse.
Amen, Bob! TRUE.
I think people on this blog would do well to hear what April is saying (without agreeing) because those well-meaning if not so well informed parents are for real.
Chuck, I certainly welcome a diversity of viewpoints on this blog and in the world beyond.
But, as I wrote above in response to April’s comment, I’m not quite sure what she’s specifically getting at. She has not responded -so far.
I just reread April’s comment again.
It’s been my experience in a public school that most teachers really do “pay attention to parents”.
There is a difference, though, between a group like Moms for Liberty and a parent you’d meet at an evening conference, at least from my perspective.
What is “classical”? What is “traditional”. as she wrote….. (?)
I’m a parent that took child #2 out pf public school and put him into private HS while child #1 graduated out of public school (2 yrs older and got grandfathered into the older system before CC took over completely). We are Jew-Thrans, yet I sent #2 to an Independent Catholic faith based school (light on religion) and don’t mind at all that he had to take 4 yrs of religion (much of it world religions), was “encouraged” (but not mandated) to start some classes with a small prayer and had to attend some Masses plus had to complete some real community service work to keep his scholarship (along with some grade requirements). One doesn’t have to be Catholic to attend and MANY are not! There is only INDOCTRINATION for those students wanting to pursue a more religious lifestyle! I wish that I would have pulled out child #1 and had her attend a similar type girl’s school. I live in MD, not far from DC….much like Northern Virginia.
Let me just say that Common Core curriculum in public school is/was the most dreadful thing to hit education. NCLB and RTtT KILLED public education. The testing is out of control, CC math is the most ridiculous pile of dung (it’s just revamped New Math from the 70’s), the ELA standards are awful (ask Bob Shepard!), the data collection out of control and the surveys and SEL sessions that are delivered are just canned curriculum/activist bunk. The teachers are unhappy and it shows by the way that they treat the kids…..as nothing more than data points/test scores so that they don’t get a hand slapping from the Supe. The kids are unhappy and always fighting and competing to be “the best” (Oh joy!…..I’m a 5. I suck…..I got a 3).
In private schools there is no CC. No testing madness. No data collection and no constant test prep. The only SEL they get is the real kind that students show towards others and their teachers (the modelers of respectful behavior). The kids are happy and the teachers are happy and there is mutual respect. They have “rules” they must follow (dress codes, conduct) but are offered much more personal freedom throughout the school day/school setting to practice being human and humane. Cell phones are a big no-no (they cannot use them inside the buildings but are allowed to carry them in a pocket and can use them during free periods while outside). Traditional education is important and stressed, but so are a student’s social/athletic/artistic abilities. Homework is not piled on as some kind of punishment(more test prep) and students are given free periods every day in which to do those assignments. It is a very humane, whole child development environment and it shows in the graduating students.
“Would that I could, reverse the hands of time….I would”(anon). I would have taken child #1 out of public school because she is severely messed up emotionally with anxieties stemming from her HS experience. Child #2’s bad behavior and anxieties (from elem-MS) dissipated as soon as we took him out of public school and put him into private. Sorry, but I can’t advocate for public education the way that it is right now….it is child abuse plain and simple. The private schools (in this area) are filled up with former public school students and former public school teachers. I do understand the bitterness parents feel at having to “pay twice” for a decent education for their children while tax dollars are being spent to support a local school system that doesn’t do a very good job of educating or emotionally uplifting its students. Test prep is NOT education!
Lisa, Anyone who recognizes my name from this blog would know that I would never, ever promote the so-called Common Core including it’s subservience to mindless, standardized testing.
And, when it comes to where a family’s own children go to school, well, that’s a decision that is best left to that family.
But to state that public education today is “child abuse” (as you say) based on the very real though specific experiences of your family is a huge generalization. And, to use the term “child abuse”? Really?
I think the evidence put forth for many years on this blog by Diane and the long list of learned people who comment here regularly is that public education is worth defending.
Maybe you have retired and are imagining the good old days of teaching? Today’s public school environment is child abuse. Non stop test prep via CCSS is not an education. Angry and over worked teachers don’t provide a very happy and open/civil environment.
WHY??? No one wants to broach the “why” anymore. WHY are there so many behavior problems in public schools? WHY are there so many fights/shootings in public schools? WHY are there so many suicides/attempts in the population of public school students? WHY are so many students on ADHD meds and SSRI’s? WHY are so many young kids and teens having mental health/anxiety issues? These are not “problems” in private schools….yes, they happen, but far less often. What has caused all of this and how can it be changed? And don’t say Covid, because all of this was on the upswing before the pandemic shut down schools. If public school systems don’t change their M.O. they will continue to bleed students AND teachers, the funding issues will continue and the “voucher parents” will scream louder…. (and win).
A LOT of broad statements there, Lisa.
And, you sound upset. Tough to discuss/debate/argue with someone who has been so concerned about his or her own children. I get it….I’m a parent, as well as a teacher who retired in June. (Not that long ago -though I do qualify as an old fart, ha, ha I was at McD’s this weekend and someone behind the counter automatically gave me the senior discount on my coffee. Okay, why not. I’ll lean into my encroaching decrepitude, though leaning does imply a fall hazard for me now I guess.)
Tragically, I don’t think suicide and drug abuse are lesser issues at private schools nationwide, as you suggest What private schools? Where?. Do you have research to back up these views?
If there was a magic solution to help our nation’s children, I think people would’ve snatched it up a long time ago.
Wait…, actually there is a solution, or at least a good start….the expanded child tax credit, thanks to Joe Biden and company. But much of the G.O.P seems to have a problem with that idea..
Chalk that up to a conservative obsession with the so-called “private sector”. Private this, private that, on and on and on….
For more info on that topic see the recent post here: https://dianeravitch.net/?s=child+tax+credit
Take care
I’m not upset. Both of my children have now graduated and neither are a failure to launch…..yet. Child #1 is having some difficulties (anxiety) but is very productive. Child #2 just started college and is having the time of his life! I’m simply telling you WHY parents want a different option. I’m in a wealthy district just outside of DC and our school system likes ALL the shiny new Deforms and Disruptions (many well funded systems do!). Every subject is ‘tested” as most HS students are EXPECTED to indulge the fantasies of Administration and subject themselves to numerous AP classes (and much stress) to get those 5’s (we are ranked high in the US News & World Reports….smh!). Maybe you taught in a more rural district or taught a class that didn’t tie itself to a test……here, even ART in HS has an AP component and is tied to desk time and test taking. The public education system in the US used to be something that was valued, but I really can’t say that anymore now that it has become another commodity with grifters siphoning off tax dollar$ at the expense of children.
Just came in from cutting brush with the chainsaw. An hour is about enough for my AARP-certified self.
Yes, I do live in a rural area. I could go out and cut brush for the rest of my life on this old farm and not finish. So, sure, that skews my perspective. My career was in a rural school.
I’m very interested in a comment you made about cell phone usage. That was a HUGE change during the last portion of my career. I taught wonderful students but the cell phone thing…I’m not quite sure what the solution is.
The phones seem hard to control….for everyone, including some of the adults I run into. Public school, private school…I talk to people everywhere now and I feel like I’m sitting there in another century.
I’ve resisted getting a smartphone because of my cheapness, ha, ha, and just because I’m contrary, especially about technology. It does give me an interesting perspective. Eventually I won’t be able to get by without one.
And, AP tests. Taught that and glad to be done with it. Lots of great people teach AP. But the College Board and the whole 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 thing… It was bad. You are correct.
For a while the letters “A” and “P” raised my blood pressure. Hard to avoid them on a keyboard, though, especially the “A” If it was doing that to me, imagine the kids…
When I ditched AP and started teaching a college co-credit class, that was a huge improvement for me and my students.
In terms of schools, I guess I’m kind of old fashioned. When it comes to the ‘public sector’ as in… my country, my town and my local public school, I am a member of the public.
So if my school fails, if my town fails, if the United States fails, that is a direct reflection on me -as a citizen. That’s just how I see it.
You might imagine how challenging it has been to teach government to 12 graders in recent years.
I watched the Congressional hearing about the January 6 insurrection this afternoon.
It’s still astounding how we’ve come to….this…this mess.
So, yeah, when it comes to young adults, it’s a very complicated world they live in now. They have many opportunities that never existed for me. And, all sorts of new pitfalls, too. I’m happy to hear whenever they are doing well navigating through all this.
God bless ’em all.
John,
I think there is a place for exam based credit, especially for students in rural or relatively resource poor schools. It allows students to learn material out of the traditional classroom and still get academic credit and notice.
Chuck,
Do not ignore the “parent groups” like Moms for Liberty,” “Parents Defending Education,” and others that are handsomely funded by the Waltons and Koch. Most parents like and trust their children’s teachers. Critical Race Theory is not taught in K-12. Teachers are not pedophiles, and they are not “grooming” children to be transgender. The critics assume that any honest discussion of racism—past or present—is CRT. Is there racism in our society today? Yes. Was there systemic racism in the past? Yes. Are there gay families? Yes. Do they threaten the vast majority of people who are not gay? No.
Why not tell the truth?
All I know is (like I told WASC), my main concern is that when a child walks out my door they have the skills to sustain themselves in society; their success is my success. Believe it or not, I had all the “cast off” kids who had drug issues, gang issues, pregnancy, court issues, transgender issues. All the issues a kid going to school should not have to worry about, but did. When Ashley was becoming Alex, I learned a lot. We had great conversations. When the other kids said, “Am I normal? I don’t feel normal?” When I first started and talking about dreams one kid said, “Charvet, I don’t expect to live beyond 18.” Holy Snikeys! Dude, you have people to meet and places to go. You are going to move mountains! All I could do is support each unique individual the best I could and without them in this world there would be a great abyss. Big or small, they were needed. Typically, I would have to do my own “running around town and make phone calls” to help my kids. I had the gamut of two moms, two dads, single dads, single moms, grandparents raising kids and every conversation was about helping their child succeed for who they were. When I taught government, it was about teaching children how to think, not what to think. I spoke about learning and educating oneself because voting really meant something and not to just “get the word off the street — dude, I have coupon for balloons and hotdogs if you mark an X here.” As far as I knew, I was not supposed to take away natural inquiry but encourage it. Not pit one side against the next. Try to encourage children to get along not kill each other. All while not having a bias. I learned to LISTEN and pause a lot; collect my thoughts; point kids/parents to the best solution and hope for the best. I remember when there were op-eds in the paper stating that the Nativity scene should be prominently place in front of the school (no matter what I felt). I said, “Class, you may have seen this comment. With this thought in mind, do the Wickens get their display as well? How does separation of church and state as well as the First Amendment fit into this scenario?” In the end, all I know is that families (despite what people said) wanted the best for their child and most of the time they needed an advocate to support their needs. Currently, I am helping one of my former student’s mother obtain US Citizenship. And that’s what I spent 32 years doing before I retired. Happy Holidays and thank you for being about to have a conversation with rich ideas agreeing with each other or not. Peace out.
I understand that there are groups who are politically motivated who use the word “parents” to achieve their goals. No one hates censorship more than me which is why The Language Police has always been one of my favorite books. It looks at censorship on both left and right. But there are parents who are truly concerned about cultural issues. Listen to them, engage with them. That’s what I’m trying to say.
And Diane I do appreciate and admire your shining the light of truth on these issues.
Thanks, Chuck
Lisa Selin Davis has a good article with an interesting take on indoctrination: “School as Church”
https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/school-as-church
Conservatives are freaked out because their kids do not believe what they believe. Look at the Pew polls. On issue after issue, the kids are in an opposing camp. They are fine with dating across racial lines. They are fine with gay marriage. They are fine with trans people and a wide range of gender expressions and identities. They support abortion. They say they would be willing to vote Socialist. They aren’t religious. And so on.
And so Conservatives are looking for someone to blame. Teachers and schools are an easy target. But what Conservatives don’t get, what they are too freaking thick to get, is that this isn’t about schools indoctrinating kids, it’s about changes in the culture, changes in a culture that has zoomed past them, that is already in a differing future.
It’s about cultural change, not about indoctrination by schools. Spend some time taking in the media that young people consume and care about. You’ll see what I mean. Often, it’s the KIDS trying to teach their teachers and administrators, trying to get them out of the Middle Ages and into the 21st century.
There’s something happening here, and you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?
All this is about changes in the culture IN GENERAL, not about schools and teachers per se. And there is always a lot of tumult in times of dramatic cultural change, people upset about those scandalous Strauss waltzes the kids are doing these days.