In response to a post about the generous public funding of yeshivas that fail to teach English, science, mathematics, or history, our resident polymath Bob Shepherd compared these schools to Islamic madrassas.
Well, traditionally, in the Arab world, young men interested in following a religious vocation would go to one of the schools attached to a mosque, a madrassa, to study. These madrassas were Islamic seminaries. During the Russo-Afghan War, powerful, wealthy traditionalists in Saudi Arabia started funding madrassas throughout the Middle East and other parts of the Islamic war to inculcate a new generation of young people, mostly very poor young people, in an extremist version of Sunni Islam that is the de facto official religion in Saudi Arabia, Wahhābīsm. At the time, the U.S. was supporting the Afghan resistance, supplying training and weapons to resistance fighters like the young Osama bin Ladin, who made his name among the resistance fighters when he and others stopped a convoy of Russian tanks with American-supplied Stinger missiles. Well I remember Ronald Reagan speaking of those Afghan “freedom fighters” and saying that they were “Good, God-fearing people, just like us.” Those fighters were the Taliban. Yup. Same Taliban. Now, bin Laden and other young people in that movement were followers of an Egyptian named Sayyed Qutb, who had come to America to study, had been horrified by things like seeing women singing on television, and went back and started writing books about how decadent Western culture was going to inundate and overwhelm Islam and the only way to stop that was to fight back vigorously. To that end, he coopted a word that had referred to spiritual struggle toward enlightenment, jihad. So, the combination of the Saudi-funded fundamentalist madrassas and the work of Qutb helped create a powerful Islamicist movement, with consequences that included the events of 9/11.
Well, flash forward to today. The Extreme Court, formerly the Supreme Court of the United States, has been taken over by a supermajority of religious nutcase Republican appointees, including three appointed by the areligious Donald Trump (his worships only himself and Mammon). That Extreme Court is busily clearing the way for taxpayer funding of religious schools in order to create vehicles for indoctrination of a new generation of kids in fundamentalist, nationalist Christian ideology (see, for example, the Hillsdale 1775 curriculum), just as extremist traditionalists in Saudi Arabia funded the training of extremists in religious schools, madrassas, all over the Middle East and beyond. Why is the Extreme Court doing this? Because educated Republicans can see from polls and from the culture at large that the youth and the cultural avant-garde are against them ON EVERY ISSUE. So, they want to create a mechanism for turning that back, and religious schoolings is such a mechanism. Institutions for indoctrination.
It’s ironic, isn’t it? The Pugs HATE Islamic fundamentalist education, but fundamentalist education is precisely what they want the rest of us, here, to pay for.
Bingo
Bring on the culture wars . Only one problem ; only one side has showed up for the fight .
cx: “and other parts of the Islamic world”
cx: He worships only himself and Mammon
cx: 1776 curriculum
So sorry about all the typos in this short piece. It was dashed off as a comment on Diane’s blog.
Thanks for the history, Bob. The recent Red Mass held in D.C. provided the ideal opportunity for the Catholic Church to denounce Christian nationalism with SCOTUS’ judges Barrett and Roberts in the audience. It was a good occasion to support American democracy. Did either occur during the event?
Or, was it the same messaging, take care of the poor, not through government programs but, through private charity which provides an opportunity for a cut to be taken by the Church. Taxpayers made Catholic organizations the nation’s 3rd largest employer- their religious schools were exempted from civil rights employment law- predictable in a theocracy.
It would be hard to underestimate the effect of dramatic change on traditional society. Male dominance, present in cultures around the globe, is directly challenged not just by thinkers in the West but by technology itself, which places power not in the hands of the physically dominant, but in the hands of the motivated and intelligent. Since this group is over represented by people like our host, it frightens the traditional in ways that cause harsh push-back. For everyone who feels that additional brain power is a good idea, there are many who are uncomfortable with the changes that dethrone them. Thus the societal structures that seek traditional views become more and more extreme because they rely on the segments of the population that fear.
“Extreme” in Idaho- various media including Intercept, Cosmopolitan and Intercept reported this week about a letter sent to faculty and staff at the University of Idaho which curtails their freedom of speech about abortion.
Shout out to the conservative Catholic church and evangelical protestants for the attacks on women’s rights.
Mormons, evangelical protestants and Catholics make up 50% of the Idaho adult population.
Additional brain power is a great idea. Is that how wealth and power are distributed in Society .
I guess educators and intellectuals, especially at institutions of higher learning ,should be some of the most powerful and wealthy people in society. Most are starving adjuncts. Doctors in the US earn multiples of what equally trained and skilled Medical Professionals in European Nations make. Is that because of superior intellect. Most Researchers in Bio and Chem will not win the lottery in spite of their education , superior intellect and degrees. Katalin Kariko PHD did hit the lottery when she was near 60 . But she details only sticking with the research at U Pen that led to MRNA vaccines because of her daughter’s Crew scholarship. Her low paid Lab assistants earning more than her.
Our tech Billionaires are some of the most reactionary figures in the country. And how many of them are self made. Bill Gates certainly not. Of course he is a big fan of free markets . Government should not impose minimum wage floors, enable unions or enforce anti trust laws… No matter what Gates would be a wealthy man. Would he be a anywhere near a billionaire without his government structured monopolies. Patents the philanthropist is a big fan of even for life saving vaccines to end a Pandemic.
And if he was not making those billions what would those tech employees at Microsoft be making . Would they have high 3 figure salaries or significantly less .
When was it that those who worked with their hands sat on any throne . I will agree with you that there is an anti intellectual bent on the right. However I feel that a Marxian Economic analysis can not fully explain the right wing populist movements we see . Especially when many in these autocratic movements are supposedly educated and certainly more well off than the Blue collar workers . They may not go to a Trump rally, they do go to the voting booth. It is undeniable that economic outcomes do not just happen . Most of it comes as the result of policy decisions that pick winners and losers merit having little to do with it. As the Princeton study details those decisions seldom represent interests of the “99 %”.
Joel: I take your point about technology and power. Certainly Western society has rewarded the people who are acquisitive in nature. This too challenges the traditional culture. In America, both extreme right and extreme left (where they exist) dislike Gates and his happy band of disruption
Trump is still stuck in 1954. Look at the crowd at a Trump rally. Look at the crowd at the Republican convention. Same. These are people who, like Putin and Patriarch Kirill and Alexandr Dugan in Russia or Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas on the Extreme Court of the US, look upon modernity with utter incomprehension. It’s just weird and frightening to them, and they react with anger at it.
Wikipedia has a Timeline of Women’s Suffrage that is interesting. In Mexico, women didn’t gain the right to vote until 1953.
IMO, there should be more acknowledgement that Republican opposition to “modernity” includes their grievance at the advance in women’s opportunities. Forty percent of Republican men feel women’s gains have come at the expense of men.
Totally agree with you about this.
Well said, Bob.
Thanks, Thomas!
Well, Thomas said well said, Bob.
Well said, Thomas.
Well, Bob said thanks to well said Bob.
Oh, well.
All’s well that ends well.
Well hell
Hell’s well that ends well.
If he’s not well-heeled, at least he’s well ____.
The question is whether you know full well.
Well, I never!
Well, OK. Sometimes, perhaps. A little.
We have yet to see the full flowering of two important rightwing precedents that the Trumptilian Extreme Court laid down last term–pulling the rug out from under unenumerated rights and stripping the Executive Branch of powers held by so-called Originalists to exist only with Congress. Both, if applied, would totally rewrite life in these United States. And worse is to come this session, which just started, for the court will be taking up so-called Independent State Legislature theory–the idea that each state legislature can decide how to handle voting in its state Nullify the popular vote and have the state legislature vote instead? Fine, according to the proponents of this theory.
Letting the state legislature override the popular vote nullifies democracy.
Exactly
Sorry. Edited version:
Fleurs du mal
We have yet to see the full flowering of two important rightwing precedents that the Trumptilian Extreme Court laid down last term–pulling the rug out from under unenumerated rights and stripping the Executive Branch of powers held by so-called Originalists to exist only with Congress. Both, if applied, would totally rewrite life in these United States. And worse is to come this session, which just started, for the court will be taking up so-called Independent State Legislature theory–the idea that each state legislature can decide how to handle voting in its state, nullify the popular vote, and have the state legislature vote instead, for example. That would be just fine, according to the proponents of this theory.
Why do the Repugnicans like this? Well, for the same reason they liked Trump’s Fake Electors scheme. The Pugs have solid majorities in a majority of the state legislatures.
If a state can nullify a vote, why not a law. This was, of course, what John C Calhoun and the opponents of the Tarriff in 1832 proposed. Lurking under the controversy was the slavery issue. Calhoun wanted to make the country safe for autocracy.
If the constitution does not already delineate specific guidelines states have to follow in holding elections, then what can it ever mandate? Can it levy taxes? Can it maintain a defense? Can it secure its borders (just threw that in for the Trump guys)?
In West Virginia v. the EPA, a case that didn’t get much press, the Extreme Court ruled that the EPA couldn’t regulate existing power plants because Congress had not specifically granted it that power. This is HUGE if construed as a broad precedent because rightwingers have LONG (I mean, for mean for more than half a century) argued that the Executive has vastly overstepped its bounds in regulating a LOT of stuff. And the Congress as well.
And, ofc, Dobbs set a precedent for disallowing other unenumerated rights, as Thomas gleefully noted.
The West Virginia power plant case was huge because it potentially disables every federal Department, saying it can do nothing unless specifically authorized by Congress.
Article I, Section 4, Clause 1 (The Elections Clause):
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.
Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 (The Appointment of Electors Clause):
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-radical-independent-state-legislature-theory-could-disrupt-our
And, ofc, we had a second nullification crisis with the proposals by Southern governors and Senators during the Civil Rights Movement that those states could nullify federal (including federal court and supreme court) orders re: desegregation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election#Uncertainty_over_Trump_accepting_an_electoral_loss_in_2016
oh, and Roy, thanks for the History lesson
Excellent observations- Roy and Bob
And in other news:
https://reason.com/2022/10/05/mocking-the-police-is-not-a-crime/?utm_medium=email
Unfortunately, the news today reads like a parody. This is probably the only thing I believe in common with the right wing of American politics today. We would, of course, disagree on where the truth becomes parody.
In other other news, Saudi Arabia just helped fund the Russian aggression against Ukraine by announcing that it is going to cut oil production, which will drive prices up, thus providing funds that Russia can use for its murderous campaign in Ukraine and putting pressure on Europeans to capitulate to Russia because of energy shortages during the coming winter. And it did this just after the opening salvo of the Saudi-funded LIV golf league, hosted by Putin’s dog, Trump.
https://roberthubbell.substack.com/p/putins-war-tax-on-americans
And yet we keep selling them planes and other advanced weapons so they can continue bombing Yemen back into the stone age.
Because, you know, Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Grumman, Raytheon and Boeing “need” the extra billions and have Congress and the President in their pockets.
Saudi Arabia also very likely has it’s eyes on becoming a nuclear power — and not just in the nuclear reactor sense. Russia is one of the countries that has offered to sell them reactors, which would provide them with the raw material from which to process weapons grade material.
Don’t forget that Saudi Arabia gave Jared Kushner $2 billion. A tip.
We know what is acceptable to SCOTUS’ conservatives- Roberts, Barrett, Thomas, Alito, and Kavanaugh- relative to equality of voting rights.
Their lockstep with conservative Catholic beliefs was evident in their decisions in Roe, the funding of religious schools, the exemption of religious institutions from civil rights employment law, prayer at public school events, etc
PBS Hour 9-7-2021 -“Vatican officials declined to say if women would be able to vote on concrete proposals about the future of the Catholic Church including the religious superiors representing 641,000 nuns,…(This is despite the fact that women perform) the lion’s share of teaching in the Catholic schools, running the Catholic hospitals and passing on the faith to the next generation.”
The religious left of some sects are comfortable with hypocrisy similar to the religious right. Parity, assume the Catholic Church was overtly discriminatory against black people instead of women.
In other, other, other news. Two days ago, Russia annexed the Ukrainian province of Zaporizhzhia. According to Russia, Zaporizhzhia is now Russia. And yesterday it bombed apartment buildings there. Russians bombing civilians in Russia.
Nothing new there, Bob. Russia leveled Mariupol, destroyed its cultural center and theater, now says it’s part of Russia.
While I get the point of this and don’t disagree, can we please stop using RWNJ talking points like conflating the Arabic word for school, “madrasa,” (prounounced MAHdrasa) with Islamic fundamentalism? This is very disappointing and is right up there with folks saying “Allah” is the Muslim god. (The Christian Palestinians at my church use the word when they pray in Arabic.) My husband is Palestinian and Arabic is his native language. I’ve been studying Arabic and can say that “madrasa” is used by Arabic speakers, regardless of religion, as the word for school, ANY school.
Arabic words are generally built around three consonants, and in this case it’s d/r/s (or dal/ra/seen), or the word “darasa” (study of – دَرَسَ) Words that go with “darasa” would be school (مدارس), “teacher” – mudarris (m), mudarrisa (female) (مدرسة/مدارس), to study, etc.
I repeat, there is NOTHING about the word that makes it mean fundamentalism. Please don’t continue this.
You make a strong argument, Laura. But please note that mine is a fairly standard usage IN ENGLISH. What term would you suggest for referring to a school concentrating on Islamic studies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrasa
https://www.brookings.edu/research/pakistans-madrassahs-ensuring-a-system-of-education-not-jihad/
Your point about the word for God is well taken, ofc.
Whatever term is used, it is nonetheless the case that there was an explosion of schools throughout the Middle East concentrating on teaching fundamentalist Islam. That’s the point. Now we have an entire political party in the US calling for taxpayer funding of schools that teach fundamentalist Christianity. Same phenomenon as in, say, Pakistan.
and this:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/madrassa
However, I hear you and will start using the term schools that teach Islamic fundamentalism. It’s longer and more cumbersome, but it avoids the problem you refer to.
I think that’s the best course of action.
I didn’t read the links you posted, but one of them is from Pakistan. They’re not an Arabic-speaking country, it’s mostly just used to study the Qur’an, so they may indeed use the Arabic word for school and attach it to Islamic schools. But that just means they’ve taken a foreign word and are misusing it.
And just because the wrong word is used in English-speaking countries doesn’t make it ok. It furthers the belief that all Arabs and their language are synonymous with terrorism.
Read the posts. In the West, the term is used to refer to schools that teach Islamic studies. There is a historical reason for this. There was a vast flowering of these schools throughout the Arab work, funded to a large extent by Saudi money, and this fed into the jihadist movement and jihadist organizations. You are completely right that it is wrong and dangerous for people to associate Arabs in general with terrorism. However, it is NOT false to associate fundamentalist Islamicist schools with terrorism. These have been the incubators, and there was an explosion of them. I posted a piece from Brookings that explains this history. Brookings is not a rightwing organization. It is continually ATTACKED by the rightwing in the United States. And, again, I used the term with its common English meaning, as reflected in the definition in the Merriam Webster dictionary, a standard source.
from http://www.merriam-webster.com:
madrassa noun
Save Word
To save this word, you’ll need to log in.
ma·dras·sa | \ mə-ˈdra-sə , -ˈdrä- \
variants: or madrasa or less commonly madrassah or madrasah
Definition of madrassa
a Muslim school, college, or university that is often part of a mosque
But I hear the general principle behind what you are saying. Far, far too many Americans equate Islam with terrorism. We have an entire political party that routinely does that, that is just fine with, for example, Trump’s ban on travel from predominantly Muslim countries and other such extremist prejudice. That’s NOT OK. But it’s also not OK to falsify the history. A proliferation of Islamicist schools fed the modern jihadist movement.
A proliferation of Islamicist schools, referred to in English as madrassas, fed the modern jihadist movement.
And it is a parallel development in the United States that I don’t want to see but that our Extreme Court is working hard to implement.
the piece I posted is not FROM Pakistan. It’s from Brookings. It is about Pakistan, but it is indicative of a larger phenomenon–the proliferation of fundamentalist Islamicist schools leading to the modern jihadist movement, the theorist of which was Qtub.
cx: Qutb; another important founding ideological figure was Hassan al-Banna
How many comments have you posted defending your use of the word madrasa in connection to Islamic fundamentalism? That tells me all I need to know.
Barry Soetoro attended a madrasa in Indonesia. We know what that means.
You are the one who said that you didn’t read anything that was posted because, evidently, you already know everything. LOL.
I think I have made my case. You attacked my usage. I explained why I used the term that I did as I did. I provided authoritative sources for that usage. And you ignored them.
On second thought, I will continue using madrasas as I did above. Would you have us stop using Taliban to refer to the Taliban because the word taliban mean student? That doesn’t make any sense to me.
You and Wikipedia and the Western press are close but wrong.
Taliban means 2 students. طالبان •SPECIFICALLY.•
The plural (3+) of talib is pronounced tulab.
طلاب means students طالب one student.
And I have no idea why they chose that form as their name? Maybe because they’re not Arabic speakers?
I think you just don’t like being wrong.
Here is why I have been so insistent on this: I am extremely afraid that we will not learn from this history and repeat this here in the United States. In the Espinoza and Kennedy decisions, the Trumptilian Extreme Court has cleared the way for taxpayer-supported religious schools in the United States. Several states have passed laws to enable such state-supported religious instruction, and many governors support this. Witness, for example, the recent attempt to establish a string of Christian fundamentalist schools, using the Hillsdale 1776 nationalist fascist curriculum, in Tennessee. I think that there is a concerted effort among wealthy rightwingers to create such schools because they can see from polling that young people (and POC) in the US are against them on every issue. So, they want to establish new centers of religio-political indoctrination to counter that. Otherwise, they go the way of the Know-nothings. But we have a recent existence proof of the horrors that result from the establishment of large numbers of fundamentalist schools. This is exactly what happened in the Arab world, and this, along with the former creation of the Islamic Brotherhood and the writings of Gutb and the US funding of the Taliban and of the repressions by the Shah of Iran, created the conditions for the emergence of the global jihadist/terrorist movement. I don’t want to see a repeat of that here. I don’t wnat to see thousands of fundamentalist, nationalist Christian madrasas in this country training a generation of Citizens Militia brownshirts, and that is precisely what I see happening. Is it clear enough, now, why I am concerned about our actually learning from this history?
Then you are continuing to equate Arabs and Muslims with extremism. Just like those you say you’re fighting.
How about the original article that started this? Hasidic Orthodox Jews in the US apparently don’t teach our US history, and barely teach kids to read and write English because it’s “profane,” as a recent graduate said in one article. He said they only need enough English to fill out welfare and section 8 forms, because the males will study the Talmud and women will produce children. Work? Except for a few, who has time for that? And they got $4B in 6 years? (Or viceversa)
Now imagine an article like that about an Arabic language school. You know very well the reaction of the country would be vastly different, and the article would appear in every paper. I have yet to read about the Hasidim in my local NYT-affiliated rag. And understand you’re doing your part to keep that prejudice going.
Do what you want. Spread all the hate and prejudice you want. Americans are good at it, with hundreds of years of practice.
That last incendiary line is truth, as opposed to madrasas are hotbeds of fundamentalism.
I will no longer respond.
I am a hate monger because I don’t want Christian fundamentalist schools spreading hate here the way Islamic fundamentalist schools did in the Arab world? LOL. Do you really think that there is no such thing as a jihadist movement and that it had no etiology? That is ahistorical.
Ok, I’m back.
Please quote where I said or hinted “there is no such thing as a jihadist movement and that it had no etiology.” I didn’t. You’re so mad to be called out, you’re now making up stuff. Hmmm….
•You’re• obviously no student of history. The worst perpetrators of terrorism within the last, oh, say, 600 years, have been white men. That’s a fact. The jihadists have a long way to go before they catch up to European or American atrocities.
Shall I list them all? “Oh, that was the past” say Europeans and Americans. As if the past doesn’t have any effect on us today. Go ask a Native American. Go ask black people. Go ask Muslim families who lost relatives when the US drone bombs wiped out wedding celebrations. Or a school bus full of children. Ho hum. I guess deaths from building empires don’t count. They were collateral damage rather than purposeful. Right?
MLK 1967: “The greatest purveyor of violence in the world : My own government, I cannot be silent.”
Vietnam: a lie
Iraq: a lie
Libya: a lie
Lives and countries destroyed by our bombs and soldiers, who themselves are expendable.
Those are just the recent ones. If we go back further, it’ll include a good portion of the world.
A Mexican (where my family is from) saying: so far from God, so close to the United States. Hmmm….
We are the only country that has used nuclear weapons. But that’s not terrorism! Chris Hedges said it’d take about 45 minutes for us all to die. How comforting to know it will be at the hands of white men, undoubtedly Americans, and not those damn Muslim terrorists.
I’ll take my chances with Muslim terrorists any day. Just like any non-white person, it’s white men I fear. And that’s historical.
What’s the white, male equivalent of a Karen? Someone who writes, what, a dozen posts screaming “I’m not wrong!”
Use madrasa. Use negro. Say Allah is the Muslim god. It’s your god-given right.
So lovely talking to you. Wow. It must be amazing to be so on the side of Right and Righteousness and whataboutism. Show me where I ever defended US atrocities. I didn’t.
It’s funny that you would attribute all this stuff to me with zero evidence. LOL. But if you agree that a) there is a global jihadist movement, b) this movement was furthered by teaching in fundamentalist schools, and c) that’s a bad thing, I’m not sure what you are so upset about. All those things, the things I asserted, are true, and I don’t want to see a repeat of them here.
My father’s family, btw, was all Cherokee.
If you came to this site often or ever read my blog, you would find that I have been a stalwart defender of the rights of Islamic people here in the US. You would also find that I write often on historical topics, having spent a lot of my life studying history, and, in particular, the history of ideas. You would find that I have written often about the atrocities of the genocide against native peoples, the bloodbaths perpetrated by Christian crusaders over the millennia, Vietnam, the Second Iraq War. And if you knew anything about my resume, you would know that I am the author of a number of textbooks on African-American history, music, literature, and art–a lifelong passion of mine because of my love of this stuff and my horror and anger at racism in America. But go ahead, make your assumptions. I would say that it’s your god-given right, but I do not believe in any of the gods of any of the established religions and have written extensively about that, too. This does not mean, however, that I am an Atheist. That, too, would be an unwarranted assumption.
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/the-vast-unseen-and-the-vast-unseeable-2/
The Credo from the About Page on my personal website:
Credo
To paraphrase Tom Joad, in The Grapes of Wrath:
A person ain’t got a soul of his or her own, just a little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody, and then . . . then it don’t matter. Whatever happens, I’ll be all around in the dark – I’ll be everywhere. Wherever you can look – wherever there’s a migrant family walking a thousand miles to apply for amnesty so that the children can eat and live safely, I’ll be there. Wherever people are shouting down some white woman who called the cops on folks for barbecuing while black, I’ll be there. I’ll be in the way people stood up to the thugs with badges who came to arrest them at Stonewall. I’ll be in every Pride parade. I’ll be in the way trans kids laugh when they’re accepted for who they are, and in the way women walk out on the company that wants to arbitrate away their right not to be pawed at. I’ll be in the crowd taking pictures when the cops are beating up some black kid. I’ll be standing between the woman on the subway wearing a hajib and the young men taunting her. I’ll be in the cell with the guy talking to the law school students who’ll find the DNA evidence to exonerate him. I’ll be at the factory gates with the poor people sick of being sick, of being poisoned. I’ll be with the pigs in the transport truck heading to the slaughterhouse, with the chickens in the battery cages. I’ll be in the next desk over cheering on the kid who writes, “My mind is not standardized enough to formulate the required responses” and nothing else on the standardized test. When the old people march on the capitol to protect their healthcare and Social Security and extend Medicare to all because it’s cheaper and more decent and every other country has done it, I’ll be there. And when the young people working at McDonald’s or Walmart fight not just for a living wage but for a union as well, I’ll be there, too.
Also, they CHOSE that name. It would appear non-Arabic speakers chose the wrong word. Hmmmmm……..
Arabic is specific. A singular noun has one form (male and perhaps female depending on whether the noun can apply to male or female).
2 of that noun has a separate ending. It appears to me the Taliban chose the MSA form ( Modern Standard Arabic) which foreigners generally learn. MSA is fairly different from colloquial dialects. 2 of an item in MSA ends in -An, (emphasis on the A), while dialects generally use -ayn. So Levantine Arabic speakers, like my Palestinian husband, would say 2 students are Talibayn.
3+ nouns can change completely as Talib becomes Tulab.
1 house=bayt
2 houses= baytayn
3+ houses=bulut
Toodles, Rob. Any more Arabic lessons and I’ll have to start charging you.
Also, they CHOSE that name. It would appear non-Arabic speakers chose the wrong word. Hmmmmm……..
Arabic is specific. A singular noun has one form (male and perhaps female depending on whether the noun can apply to male or female).
2 of that noun has a separate ending. It appears to me the Taliban chose the MSA form ( Modern Standard Arabic) which foreigners generally learn. MSA is fairly different from colloquial dialects. 2 of an item in MSA ends in -An, (emphasis on the A), while dialects generally use -ayn. So Levantine Arabic speakers, like my Palestinian husband, would say 2 students are Talibayn.
3+ nouns can change completely as Talib becomes Tulab.
1 house=bayt
2 houses= baytayn
3+ houses=bulut
Toodles, Rob. Any more Arabic lessons and I’ll have to start charging you.
Do whatever makes you happy.
Thanks for the lessons. In another lifetime, I will learn this beautiful language, in which so much magnificent literature has been written.