I received a letter from John Ogozolak, a teacher in upstate New York, where the economy has long been in serious trouble, with a paucity of jobs and economic opportunity.
I decided to share it, because like him, I too have wondered what message we give our high school students. The politicians and the media constantly tell them how dumb they are, how lazy and shiftless, yet they are our future. What kind of world are they graduating into? Will there be jobs? Will they have a chance? Will there be social mobility and opportunity? Or will they find themselves slipping down into the bottom end of the economy?
John’s letter arrived only hours after I read this column in Slate by Laurence Steinberg, who studies adolescents, declaring that our high schools are a total disaster, and our kids are learning nothing, based on the fact that test scores for seniors are stagnant.
I responded to Larry Steinberg, whom I knew years ago, and pointed out that the NAEP scores for seniors are meaningless. When I was on the NAEP board in the early 2000s, we devoted a full meeting to discussing the fact that high school seniors don’t even try on NAEP tests. They know the tests don’t count towards high school graduation or college admission; they don’t count for anything, and the kids don’t care about them. They doodle on the answer page, they answer in patterns (like checking off every A), or they leave pages blank. They aren’t dumb. They know what they are doing. They are asked to jump over a meaningless hurdle, and they treat it as a joke. But the adults take their tomfoolery as evidence that they are unmotivated, possibly stupid. I don’t think the kids are stupid. I imagine how I feel when someone calls me on the phone and starts asking questions; usually I hang up, or I say something uncooperative because I don’t like to be interrupted for no reason to fit into someone else’s plan. I expect that the seniors feel the same way.
I often wonder why we have so little confidence in our young people, why we demean them so often, and why we never stop to think that they are products of our society, for better or worse. If we are disappointed in them, we should be even more disappointed in ourselves. They are our children. And let me be clear: I have met many high school students, and I have been impressed by their wit, intelligence, humor, courage, and passionate sense of justice.
Anyway, read Steinberg’s column, and contrast it with what John wrote. John is a teacher. He knows his kids. He sees them every day. He worries about their future, not because they are dumb but because our society offers them diminishing prospects and doesn’t tell the truth:
I teach 12th graders economics in what the New York Times described this past summer as the 4th poorest county in New York State.I start off the semester course trying to give the students a sense of what’s rich, and middle class and poor in this country. The kids read from Barbara Ehrenreich’s Nickel and Dimed and we discuss the growing gap between the rich and poor in this nation.I try to make economics REAL to these young adults while connecting their experiences to some of the important theories you’d find in a typical Economics 101 course in college. These kids are on the verge of walking out of the school and being faced with paying for college and making their way in the world.Then…..the students and myself get walloped at the end of the course with an asinine “assessment” created from a computer bank of outdated questions that someone in an office at the county BOCES prints out. We get a test just because some law says we have to. You couldn’t call it a standardized test. One version had misspelled words and even the same question repeated twice. But, of course, I couldn’t revise the test prior to administration……because I as the teacher couldn’t be trusted.
It’s truly sick, Diane. I’m not a believer in conspiracy theories but I have to wonder if there’s some grand scheme somewhere to numb high school students with mindless drivel and endless tests so that they don’t get around to asking the big questions….like why is their generation getting screwed. It’s frustrating to sit back and watch this educational car crash happen. I’ve sent letters to the Times, to the newspaper in Albany, my legislators….. I tried writing a blog but I don’t have the time really for its upkeep among other issues. I went to rallies and held up signs…..We still try to have some fun in class while learning. That’s about my biggest form of protest.

Have high school students gotten significantly smarter since you wrote “What Do Our 17-Year-Olds Know”?
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Welcome back.
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I, too, was once impressed by that sort of argument, FLERP. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dr. Ravitch’s views on this have deepened somewhat. A famous documentary short (“A Private Universe”) was made back in the 1980s in which the filmmakers walked around a Harvard commencement asking people, “Why do we have seasons?” Seems like a simple question. The topic is covered in elementary school. But almost none could say.
But the problem with that sort of thing is that that’s ALWAYS been so. People retain what they need to know, and the relation between seasons and the tilt of the Earth just isn’t high on most people’s coping list. (Stephen Pinker defines intelligence as ability to manipulate one’s self and a changing environment in such a way as to get what one needs from it–that’s not a perfect definition, but it’s pretty good, as such definitions go.)
Yes, far more kids can name all the Simpsons than can name one Supreme Court justice. I dearly wish that that weren’t so. But those same kids can edit a vid and pop it up on YouTube in the time it takes an ed deformer to say, “Kids these days!”
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Not that there is anything wrong with The Simpsons. The show is quite sophisticated (I have seen it a few times). It’s so sophisticated, in fact, in its verbal inventiveness, that one of my favorite linguistics blogs runs an annual feature of highlights:
http://heideas.blogspot.com/2009/03/beyond-beyond-beyond-beyond-beyond.html
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Robert – the new trend is creating productions or vid on Instagram where “followers” can watch their antics. My 11 yr old grand daughter has 1000+ followers who “like” her into such antics as covering her face with peanut butter for the dog to lick off. What fun?
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Robert – you probably won’t be surprised to find out that some of the Simpson shows parody great literature – such as works by Edgar Allen Poe.
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“People retain what they need to know,” and our students know they can find the information to answer almost any question with that little device that fits in the palm of their hands. It’s important to teach them how to evaluate the vast information that is out there for authority, bias, and credibility.
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AlwaysLearning – you are so right. They need to evaluate the source of online information and determine it’s validity.
Reading between the lines is even more important than reading the actual content.
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Ellen: LOL!
They can teach us. We can teach them. That’s a good thing.
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If you want to see how sophisticated The Simpsons is, watch season 7, episode 24, titled “Much Apu About Nothing.”
It involves, immigration, taxes, voting, dogmatism…and education.
http://www.simpsonshere.com/the-simpsons-season-7/the-simpsons-season-7-episode-24-much-apu-about-nothing/
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Alwayslearning, you’re correct. We don’t need to retain everything we learn but must have the ability to find it when we need it. The problem with most high school students today is that they don’t see the value of learning how to learn. They want instant gratification and if they don’t get it the first time then they have very little perseverance to stick with it until they understand.
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Drext727 “The problem with most high school students today is that they don’t see the value of learning how to learn. They want instant gratification and if they don’t get it the first time then they have very little perseverance to stick with it until they understand.”
What factors have influenced this?
A. Afraid to Fail and take risk (only the correct answer matters, not the process)
B. Drill and exhaust test prep
C. Reforms of the past 12 years with high stakes testing
D. Technology and Social Media
E. NCLB that caused schools to shift focus from child-centered to test prep
F. Societal changes that have made it difficult for parents to support the educational process( more children raised in poverty, single family house-holds, parents struggling to meet basic family needs)
G. Top down mandates and loss of local control in education decision making
H. All of the above
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Well done, Always!
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I have always hated that documentary.
The first time I saw it ( at some professional learning crud shown to display how terrible science education is), my first thought was: You know if some jerk had stuffed a microphone under my nose and a camera in my face and lights in my eyes on my graduation day, I am certain I could not have explained my own senior thesis well, let alone something I have not thought about In years.
My hypothesis: given a minute to collect themselves and a less stressful moment in their lives, and any reason to care about the question at all and most would have done much better.
It always struct me as a “got ya” stunt.
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Reading this and having been especially touched by reader Dienne’s comment to me today, I really do agree that there is a self-sustained (voluntary, to a certain extent) sorting of the classes going on, which is creating a class system (or the possibility of one) like we’ve never seen before. Public school represents the middle, but the more people want to feel aligned with the top (maybe the nouveau riche), it increasingly represents the bottom (in people’s minds). There are people who make a decision to support public school when they could just as easily afford private school (these are the people my family hung with as a kid, and my husbands’ too), but more and more it seems you see this less, particularly with the dawn of the charter era. Not as a rule. I still know doctors and lawyers and folks in finance who use public schools, but it seems most moneyed crowds gave up on the significance of participating in the public school experience a few decades ago.
And there still seems to be a wave of adolescent mentality (like I said yesterday, a bit too much Cosmopolitan Magazine mentality) where we evaluate things on the surface and we run from the dusty or the aged or the outdated, like we’re all show dogs trying to win first place and that we might look bad if we so much as walk beside a mutt or drink from the same water bowl.
The spin of reform has worsened this situation by making the middle class either ashamed of their attributes (which has triggered the vulnerability of many of our leaders), or grasping onto them for dear life and being ridiculed for doing so. I can see it more and more everyday. Those who hold public school dear have been taunted and faulted for valuing the niche they have found that, they believed, was providing a service and a place for otherwise way faring strangers looking to belong.
We are all way faring strangers looking to belong. If what we have held dear (our schools and the freedom to relax into life with some certainty that this great nation can afford opportunity for us, as it has always been known to do) is to be plundered and threatened, mocked and mandated by those with just enough power to be afraid they will lose it, then we do have to be honest with them and with ourselves that this is what is happening. That in fact, the conversation about public education is really not about public education at all. It’s about the challenge of community and common ground. Its about sharing. And being nice on the playground. And it’s about those who thought they had found a higher place for these human experiences being angry that higher isnt high enough, and they want more and so they look below them and stomp and squash and it is happening and it needs to stop.
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well said, Joanna
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Very.
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Ms Ravitch wrote this…
“They know the tests don’t count towards high school graduation or college admission; they don’t count for anything, and the kids don’t care about them.”
and then this a couple of paragraphs later…
“I have met many high school students, and I have been impressed by their wit, intelligence, humor, courage, and passionate sense of justice”
Care to explain this dichotomy?
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I don’t understand your question. The first sentence is about tests. The second one is about kids. I don’t see dichotomy. I think the comment on the tests that Dr. Ravitch made is supported by the fact that the kids have those qualities.
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I don’t see a dichotomy at all. Why waste your time on yet another test, which will have no impact on your future? That sounds pretty darn logical to me. I would, however, like to hear Diane expand her answer to Lawrence Steinberg. He comments on a lot more beyond seniors abysmal NAEP scores. I love John’s letter; I think it speaks to why we have produced so many critical thinkers. Barbara Ehrenreich’s book goes far beyond the facts of economic theory and makes the students think about how policy translates into reality. We don’t need anymore buffoons who play with statistics without considering the consequences of their pontification.
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Kids who have wit, intelligence, humor, courage, and a passionate sense of justice are precisely the sort who will sabotage such attempts at standardization at every opportunity.
I thank God that we are still producing students who are not completely cowed into submission, who object to being pinned to a report and labeled like some specimen of Lepidoptera. In young people who take principled stands against such tests lies our greatest hope for the future.
“I don’t think there’s a kid in America, or anywhere in the world, who gets out of bed in the morning wondering what they can do to raise their state’s reading standards.” –Ken Robinson
I believe in standardizing automobiles. I do not believe in standardizing human beings. Standardization is a great peril which threatens American culture.” –Albert Einstein
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Agree!!
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Neanderthal100 – often the ones who are difficult to handle as students are the ones with the most personality and potential.
Since I was with them in the library, I had a different rapport with the students than the classroom teachers. I could see beyond their behaviors and hear their discussions. It was an eye opening experience to match the student with the true individual behind the “facade”. I am following several on Facebook as they go to college. Too bad I don’t have any statistical data, but it will be interesting to see their progress.
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It’s not really a dichotomy. It’s actually an example of why standardized mean less as kids get older. I’ve had numerous students tell me that they realized the state test was meaningless to them by the time they were in 7th grade. It’s high stakes for everyone but the students. Unless it is a college entrance exam, it’s meaningless to them.
It doesn’t affect their graduation or their college admission here in Michigan. Why try? Why stress out? I have watched multiple juniors color in patterns on the bubble tests so they could take a break or put their heads down. It always happens during the social studies test here since it is the last test of the day on the third and final day of testing. These are the very same students who scored 4’s and 5’s on AP history tests during their senior year. Because that earned college credit, they cared and tried.
They are smart enough to know that they are forced to participate in a meaningless activity. Now, senioritis is a real thing and I fight it every year. Once college acceptance happens, they try to check out.
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The education deformers never tire of crying that our schools are failing and that we are producing the most ignorant generation in all of history.
It’s a tired, old refrain.
I mean, really, really, really tired.
In his book The Educated Imagination, the great literary critic and scholar Northrup Frye mentions one of the earliest surviving texts that is not simply a record of the amount of grain in some granary–a Sumerian fragment that says that children no longer obey their parents nor honor the Gods.
“I tell you,” says Utur to Shemush. “These kids today!”
LOL!
I must say that I’m with Diane on this one. A lot of the young people I meet–ones in their teens and twenties–blow me away.
Perhaps Mr. Steinberg is not familiar with the Flynn Effect. In the U.S. and around the world, average IQ has been rising by about a point a decade for most of the last century, and consequently the tests have to be renormed–the scales have to be adjusted to keep the mean at 100. Dan Dennett pointed out in a recent talk that the kid who takes an IQ test today and gets a score of 100 would have gotten a 130 using the 1932 scale, and the average kid in 1932, using today’s scale, would get an 80! The intelligence testing pioneer Lewis Terman classified a score of 80 at the cusp between Dullness and Borderline Deficiency. So, by one of the test-obsessed educrats’ own beloved measures, kids are smarter today than ever before–not that I put a lot of stock in those measures. I don’t.
Kids today impress me with their breadth, their savvy, and their skepticism, and the oligarchs fear the last of these for good reason.
BTW, there’s no such thing as a single intelligence factor. And there aren’t six or seven or eight “multiple intelligences.” There are millions, at various design levels. To begin to understand why that is so, have a look at Marvin Minsky’s The Society of Mind (if you can stomach his reductionism).
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IQ measures mental ability—not smarts, common sense, motivation, the ability to set goals and achieve them.
A really high IQ means they have a bigger engine under the hood. For instance, a higher IQ might be a 1000 horse-power engine but if they only drive it as if it has 100 horse power and never go over 50 mph, they are wasting the 900 HP they never use.
At the high school where I taught there were kids who qualified for AP or honors but only idled that IQ engine and were dropped out to the average classes where some even failed because of no effort.
A high IQ is not a ticket to success.
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I agree Lloyd.
But an unused high IQ in high school does not necessitate future failure either. Some kids bloom in college. And others go on to invent great things in their garage and become millionaires or even billionaires.
Remember – Thomas Edison was labeled an idiot by the public school system.
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Yes, we don’t all come with the same expatriation date. The same applies to when maturity sets in and for some mature never arrives.
But the assembly line mentality of the billionaires and their bought politicians does not understand this.
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Agreed!
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Even the “bigger engine under the hood,” Lloyd, is far too crude. Under that hood is a breathtaking array of interconnected functional parts, and any of millions and millions of those parts can be isolated at various hierarchical design levels and called an intelligence. Memory for faces isn’t the same as memory for dance steps which isn’t the same as memory for Russian phonemes, for example. Ability to make fine discriminations in the emotional content of facial expressions isn’t the same as the ability to put faces with names or the ability to recall faces we’ve seen before. All are intelligences.
Now, there are a bunch of these intelligences that are highly correlated and are traditionally described as g–as a “general intelligence factor,” and that partially motivates the “bigger engine” idea, but the monolithic intelligence notion starts breaking down quickly as we look more closely. Jonathan Haidt has done amazing work on identifying differing propensities among people regarding what matters to them (Care/harm, Fairness/cheating, Liberty/oppression, Loyalty/betrayal, Authority/subversion, and Sanctity/degradation). People put more or less stock in these, and they attend to different things and so have differing attitudes and abilities as a result. And while these are not static through life–brains are extraordinarily plastic–they are fairly stable. In other words, people don’t just differ in emotional intelligence. They differ in the emotional intelligences that they have–in how tuned they are to each of these. Speakers of Rheformish, for example, have been found to be highly attuned to authority/subversion and sanctity/degradation. I think of that as a pathology, but I’m tuned differently.
Schools and educators generally think of these matters in far too monolithic terms.
Kids differ. Schools should serve them, help them to “be all they can be.” We don’t do that by trying to mill them identically.
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Yes, kids are different in many ways but we can’t expect the schools to serve every child on an individual basis. The cost would be huge and the pressure on teachers immense. A teacher who has thirty or more students for about one hour before their next class arrives between bells has little or no time to offer individual instruction for thirty or more children. And when we factor in behavior problems and other distractions, the job just gets more challenging.
Divide one hour up among thirty children and the teacher has two minutes a child. Instruction must be for the entire class and not divided up into thirty different lessons designed to focus on each child’s individual differences.
This is asking too much of teachers. Imagine the time it would take outside of class for a teacher to come up with two hundred different lesson plans every day and the mate to support such a tactic.
We tried it back in the 1980s at the start of the self-esteem movement and it didn’t work. The paperwork and management aspects were daunting.
There is another way to do this and that’s to design lessons that include elements designed to appeal to the different senses because children have to learn through their senses: touch, hearing, sight.
Returning to tracks based on merit and skill level would be another added method to approach this challenge.
Individualized instruction is asking for failure. Instruction designed to appeal to as many senses as possible might stand a better chance to reach more children but we will seldom if ever achieve 100% success. Some children will offer challenges that can’t be overcome.
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Lloyd – It comes down to treating each child as a person, not a commodity or a test score. This goes beyond individualizing curriculum. It’s developing meaningful relationships with the students and making them feel valued.
The kids know the teachers who care. It’s the Spanish teacher who keeps her classroom open during her lunch period and welcomes her students to join her and just talk. It’s the guidance counselor whose door is always open to provide a listening ear. It’s the math teacher who stays after school to help his students figure out their homework. It’s the teachers who get together to organize and chaperone meaningful field trips. It’s the coaches and club chairs who work with the kids and provide after school activities.
My philosophy as a teacher/librarian was to treat each student the way I wanted my children to be treated by their teachers. I am proud to have created an open, welcoming atmosphere in the library for my students, many who still stay in touch.
Those two minutes a day add up.
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You’re right. When surveys and studies say that the average American parent spends 3.5 minutes a week in meaningful conversation with their children, teachers, librarians and counselors make up the difference. What you describe is exactly what the staff at the schools where I taught did daily. Where I taught, the schools were often an oasis in a parched desert.
And the robber barons want to take that away and replace it with a corporate Wal-Mart model run by distant CEOs who are only interested in quarterly profits.
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Lloyd – and the teachers will fight the new mandates, not just for their livelihoods, but for the sake of their students.
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I have friends still in the classroom and they don’t have the time. The job eats time. Maybe in the summer but not during the school year.
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So sad.
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cx: millions and millions of parts s/b millions and millions of isolatable functional networks
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Let me ask this: How many kids come out of school having learned to care deeply about some fields of endeavor? Passionate about those? About even one such field?
I’d say that that might be 10 percent. Our kids don’t fail. We fail them by not viewing our business as that of helping each child to find that which he or she is good at and cares deeply about.
Instead, we put them all through the same mill, and we tell half of them, “Sorry, but you weren’t what we were looking for. Not at all.”
And the current education deforms are all about ratcheting up that process. Tuning the mold into which each must fit exactly.
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Although I agree with Lloyd that the basic ability, or high IQ, is nothing without an effort to learn, I believe it is the job of parents and teachers to make that clear to their offspring and their students from the beginning. Giftedness is only productive if it is nurtured. Picasso without a paintbrush is just another old guy with a beret.
However, I thank you Robert for your long dissertation on the many factors involved in “the breathtaking array of parts under the hood” and this is the key to creative education. For me, your reminders of how the brain functions, and the wide range of giftedness, was a teachable moment and I will dig out my old texts to refresh my memory on Terman et al.
Carol Burris must be eating this up since it sounds so much like Madeline Hunter.
The real shocker in reading Steinberg’s diatribe is that he paints all high schools and all high school students with the same worn out brush. Of the many high schools where I have observed as an educational researcher, I have seen some terrible teachers, and terrible students. But far more often, I have seen creative activities in all subject matter, and so many wonderful students reaching even further than the classroom to build their knowledge that was initially triggered by a creative teacher. Of course, teaching over 50 inner city teens in a room that was designed to hold 30, presents many other problems. And to point to 3 small countries with all students speaking the same language, and with little poverty, as exemplars of excellence, seems to be avoiding the reality that is the diversity of the United States. Steinberg may be to the point in his career that he is taking the easy way out, and just parroting the spin given by the reformers.
Thanks to John for writing to Diane, and to her for publishing his letter, and Steinberg’s nonsense.
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Ellen – and why did we discard Madeline Hunter and Harry Wong when their techniques worked so well?
The other Ellen
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Actually, IQ is a very poor construct to measure much of anything. And it’s a false assumption that if kids are not taking AP courses then they are only idling “that IQ engine.”
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Democracy – Agreed.
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There are many who hold the quite mystical belief that IQ tests measure raw, innate, immutable, monolithic intelligence, irrespective of externalities, but scores are dramatically influenced by such worldly factors as motivation:
http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/04/what-does-iq-really-measure
See also
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/how_children_succeed_book_excerpt_what_the_most_boring_test_in_the_world_tells_us_about_motivation_and_iq_.html
From the second piece, by Paul Tough:
“Consider a couple of experiments done decades ago involving IQ and M&M’s. In the first test, conducted in Northern California in the late 1960s, a researcher named Calvin Edlund selected 79 children between the ages of 5 and 7, all from “low-middle class and lower-class homes.” The children were randomly divided into an experimental group and a control group. First, they all took a standard version of the Stanford-Binet IQ test. Seven weeks later, they took a similar test, but this time the kids in the experimental group were given one M&M for each correct answer. On the first test, the two groups were evenly matched on IQ. On the second test, the IQ of the M&M group went up an average of 12 points—a huge leap.
“A few years later, two researchers from the University of South Florida elaborated on Edlund’s experiment. This time, after the first, candy-less IQ test, they divided the children into three groups according to their scores on the first test. The high-IQ group had an average IQ score on the first test of about 119. The medium-IQ group averaged about 101, and the low-IQ group averaged about 79. On the second test, the researchers offered half the children in each IQ category an M&M for each right answer, just as Edlund had; the others in each group received no reward. The medium-IQ and high-IQ kids who got candy didn’t improve their scores at all on the second test. But the low-IQ children who were given M&M’s for each correct answer raised their IQ scores to about 97, almost erasing the gap with the medium-IQ group.
“The M&M studies were a major blow to the conventional wisdom about intelligence, which held that IQ tests measured something real and permanent—something that couldn’t be changed drastically with a few candy-covered chocolates. They also raised an important and puzzling question about the supposedly low-IQ children: Did they actually have low IQs or not? Which number was the true measure of their intelligence: 79 or 97?”
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Robert, your comment about half the kids being told they are not what we are looking for, when they don’t fit into one-size-fits-all education, brought tears to my eyes. I think so many of our middle kids in urban high schools, such as where I teach, are slipping through the cracks.
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Democracy wrote:
“Actually, IQ is a very poor construct to measure much of anything. ”
YES!
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To fit into someone else’s plan.
Exactly.
That is a powerful statement.
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Just like Mr. Ogozolak, I sometimes wonder about a conspiracy by elites to keep the masses uneducated, uninformed, and easily manipulated.
An education conspiracy hypothesis, while outlandish, would fit and explain a lot of what is now going on in education.
Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
It is becoming impossible to believe the reformers when they say their reforms are intended to benefit our students. It is becoming increasingly probable that the reformers have ulterior motives.
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It’s so obviously false that this high-stakes testing actually IMPROVES outcomes, that one look about for other explanations. How can so many educrats and plutocrats be so utterly oblivious?
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@ Concerned: virtually all of the current crop of corporate “reformers” cite the dire “need” to make American economically “competitive” in the global market place. Indeed that’s the overarching purpose of the Common Core standards. But, as I’ve noted on this site many times, it’s also easily disproved.
The hard-core “reformers” say if the public schools cannot do it, then charters and vouchers are necessary. Obviously, privatization is what they want.
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+1
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US has a tremendous amount invested in the NAEP results. The Gold standard?
In my years in education, the NAEP was one of the lesser recognized and concerned tests that a randomly selected group of kids participated in.
Reality: kids were escorted to rooms with total strangers who were usually retired educators, who did not know the kids, were in the testing rooms for a set period of time. Although, testing conditions must exist in the school, but the halls were noisy, classes changed, bells rang and life went on as usual. Saying all this, the fever pitch of the CRCT or the ITBS is nonexistent for the NAEP administration.
SpecialEduc students reacted the most to the testing experience. Strangers, accommodations administered by people they did not know, behavior problems, disruptions & refusal to finish. The results were taken with a grain of salt and at times had not relation to where those students typically performed.
The importance of the NAEP results in the BigPicture did not trickle down to schools and kids. Just the opposite! Such disconnect influences results significantly. Most educators closest to kids have no idea that the NAEP scores are used to determine just about everything.
Huge Disconnect ,
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The students don’t know they’re testing until the day of the test….
And all the kids get is an NAEP pencil…
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“The politicians and the media constantly tell them how dumb they are, how lazy and shiftless, yet they are our future. What kind of world are they graduating into?”
Are these politicians and the media stupid? Maybe it’s stupid of me to ask such a question because it’s obvious they are fools out of touch with the real world—fools who rely on standardized multiple choice tests to predict the future.
The standardized tests do not indicate a young person’s motivation to go into the world as an adult and succeed at working to earn money. They all don’t need to become rocket scientists to do well in life.
I taught for thirty years (1975 – 2005) in the public schools and when I hear from former students they all have jobs or are still in college. Many of them went to college. Some became lawyers, nurses, etc.
One time when a car I owned was in the dealership being repaired, a former student came up to me and asked if I remembered him when he was in my class twenty years earlier.
Of course I didn’t remember him. But as a young adult, he was a mechanic working full time for that new car dealer. After high school, he went to a vocational school to be certified as a mechanic. You don’t have to score high on a bubble test designed to measure if you are ready to go to college to do what he did.
To think that our elected leaders and the media thinks kids are lazy because they don’t score well on a bubble test is total lunacy.
I know of one student who started college and then dropped out to start his own business. Last time I talked to him he owned several frozen yogurt shops. I think Gates and that Apple guy (I forgot his name) did the same thing—dropped out of college to start a business.
This thinking tells us how out of touch our leaders and the media are. I remember one student who was still illiterate when he dropped out of high school at 16. A few years later, he dropped by my classroom for a visit to let me know he was selling used furniture and earning a great income. He had a warehouse where he stored the furniture he bought from people who sold it to him and more than one storefront where he sold this furniture. He was doing great and he still couldn’t read. His wife was his literate partner who kept the books. She graduated from HS but went no further after they got married.
Then there was the young girl who joined the Air Force after graduating from high school. She ended up being trained as a technician on an Air Force air defense missile battery and then enrolled in an online college program where she planned to earn a masters degree before she left the Air Force. Several years after graduating from HS, she dropped by for a visit and filled me in.
Every class I ever taught had both good and bad students but a kid who doesn’t do well in school doesn’t mean they will end up homeless and in poverty.
A kid doesn’t have to go to college to find a job or a way to earn enough to survive.
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Wonderful stories, Lloyd
Differing intelligences
Kids differ. Bullet lists of standards and standardized tests do not.
That OUGHT to be obvious.
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Maybe what we are missing is that hte leaders and the billionaires driving this issue are just ignorant and can’t see past the end of their noses. They think everyone is like them—self-motivated—and the only explanation is that the teachers can’t teach.
Although, I can’t see how the Koch brothers and the Waltons are self-motivated. They inherited all that wealth. They didn’t earn it. Now they are abusing the power that wealth brought with it when their fathers died.
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But certainly we could be doing a LOT more in school to identify differing children’s differing gifts and to nurture and develop those.
I heard a native American elder say, recently, “Look at the children. Watch them playing. You will see who the leaders are. You have to pay attention to those.”
The great wisdom in that observation cries out to be generalized. Look at the child. Find his or her gifts, his or her proclivities. Show him or her how to build on those.
What a complex, pluralistic economy like ours does NOT need is to have its students identically milled by a standards-and-testing machine.
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We need to have those differing gifts realized in ways we cannot yet even imagine. Build on the gifts the child has, and you will have on your hands an independent, intrinsically motivated learner. Subject every child to the standards-and-testing regime and you will succeed only in beating every child down, in creating, perhaps, the obedient servant, but not the creator of his or her own destiny.
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“But certainly we could be doing a LOT more in school to identify differing children’s differing gifts and to nurture and develop those.”
But Robert…sputter, sputter…that would require investing in things like smaller and more diverse classes which really means more MONEY!!!! Say it isn’t so. More money for education?!? Surely not. The very idea,
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We can’t force a child to find their life path when they aren’t ready. I think the teacher’s job is to make sure the kids have the basic skills to set goals and achieve them when and if they are ready.
I wasn’t ready to set goals until a sniper almost took me out in Vietnam. Then, at the age of 21, I decided maybe going to college like my parents wanted wasn’t such a bad idea. And even when I went to college, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do with my life. I changed my major three times and ended up with a BA in journalism, and I never worked in that field.
Grade level literacy would be the first skill along with a desire to read for enjoyment. 2nd, basic math so they understand what they are getting into when they sign a contract for buying/renting a house or car.
Critical thinking and problem solving skills should be 3rd.
Social skills should probably be on the list so they learn how to get along with each other and work in cooperative groups.
Along the way while achieving first, second and third, they are exposed to literature and history.
High schools should offer a split track toward high school graduation: vocational and academic.
A high level of literacy helps for those who decide to go to college and college guarantees nothing when the young adult makes bad choices in selecting a major.
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Lloyd – the more courses the student takes, the more money the college makes.
That includes the “remedial” classes which don’t count for credit. Very few kids graduate after four years – sometimes due to the lack of course offerings in their major.
Intentional?
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Universities are a business and that answers your one word question.
However, there are ways to cut the cost of college, and I told my high school students this every year but most of my students who went to college wanted to be as far from home as possible so their parents wouldn’t’ be breathing down their necks and this ended up costing the parents much more in the long run.
Were those kids self centered and selfish? Yes! But the parents deserve some of the blame for not saying no.
“In its most recent survey of college pricing, the College Board reports that a ‘moderate’ college budget for an in-state public college for the 2013–2014 academic year averaged $22,826. A moderate budget at a private college averaged $44,750.
The most expensive private college, according to Business Insider, was Sarah Lawrence College in NY at almost $60,000 annually.
“The cost for one year of tuition and fees varies widely among colleges. According to the College Board, the average cost of tuition and fees for the 2013–2014 school year was $30,094 at private colleges, $8,893 for state residents at public colleges, and $22,203 for out-of-state residents attending public universities.”
https://www.collegedata.com/cs/content/content_payarticle_tmpl.jhtml?articleId=10064
In addition, the cost of college can be even lower if the adult child stays home and goes to a local two year community college first.
“Go to community college, then transfer: One alternative for high school grads is to attend a local community college for a year or two before transferring to a four-year institution. In California, it costs about $1,100 a year for full-time tuition at a community college versus about $12,190 within the University of California system; students can also save on room and board by living at home.”
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2012/09/18/consider-these-options-to-cut-college-costs
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Lloyd, I did not say that we should expect kids to find their life goals early or that we should find them for them. What I said is quite different and, I think, extremely important.
Human ability and potential is extraordinarily varied. Today, in schools, we aren’t doing the job that we could be doing of recognizing the genius in every child because we do not have a sufficiently fine-grained taxonomy of gifts, a system oriented toward recognizing those in children, and alternative tracks for developing those.
Let me be concrete about this. There’s a young man in my family who is by no means a scholar. He dropped out of high school and got a GED. But he can drive or ride anywhere with you, once, and be able to tell you a year later, no matter how complicated the route, exactly how to get there. Why? Well, he has is gifted with truly exceptional ability to visualize and remember complex, extended spaces–he’s great at mapping in his head. He also has superb relative pitch. He can tune a guitar by ear, and if you then use a tuner to check it, it will be perfect.
But a child can have perfect pitch and go through twelve years of public schooling without anyone’s ever knowing that. I think that’s a damning thing to say, but it’s absolutely true.
Why? Because we are trying to mill, identically, every child, and our ways of thinking about ability and potential are too crude.
Ken Robinson interviewed dancer Gillian Lynne for a book he was writing. Lynne told him about growing up in Britain in the 1930s and doing badly in school because she was always fidgeting and never paid attention to lessons. “I suppose that now people would say she had ADHD, but people didn’t know you could have that then,” Robinson says. “It wasn’t an available diagnosis at the time.”
School officials decided that Lynne was mentally challenged. Lynne’s mother took her to a doctor, who interviewed the fidgeting girl for a bit and then called Lynne’s mother out into the hallway. On the way out, the doctor turned on a radio, and then from the hallway pointed through a window back into the office. “Look,” the doctor said, pointing back into the room. Gillian had gotten up and started moving to the music as soon as she was left alone.
“Mrs. Lynne,” the doctor said, “your daughter is not sick. She’s a dancer.”
And so the mother started taking her daughter for dance lessons. Robinson:
“Here is a woman who has helped put together some of the most successful musical productions in history, has given pleasure to millions, and is a multimillionarie. Of course if she were a child now, someone would probably put her on drugs and tell her to calm down.”
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Robert, I love both stories. It shows the limitations of schooling.
My son also has a wonderful sense of direction – evident even at the age of three when I drove him to the sitters. I would ask him, as a preschooler, which way to turn when I got lost. He was always right. I always wondered how he could remember the pathways on his Sega games, but not remember his alphabet. Your nephew’s story explains a lot.
I, personally, am directionally challenged. The only way I know right from left is that I sucked my left thumb as a child. (I also have a “snapping deficit disorder”.) Having trouble with directions surprisingly affects other skills – such as dancing. It is humbling, to say the least.
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True.
Singapore has tracks that reward those who are more motivated and work harder—based on a merit system as most Asian countries are. This, in part, helps explain why Asian countries tend to do so much better on the PISA test.
But this lack of tracks that reward the better students and offer remedial instruction for students falling behind in the US is not the fault of the public schools, the teacher labor unions or teachers.
This trend of having similar tracks in the US was reversed in the early 1980s with the growth of the obsessed parenting self-esteem movement that also resulted in the dumbing down of the curriculum and inflated grades in the public schools.
After all, how dare we risk hurting the feelings of some kid who didn’t study and earned a poor grade on an assignment or quiz.
The self-esteem movement also was behind the failed Whole Language approach to teaching reading and grammar and the end of rote learning (there are still areas where rote learning is necessary such as correct spelling; scientific and historical facts so when some reporter asks people at random on the street how many states the US has or the names of the first five US presidents, they’ll have an answer.).
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Lloyd – we keep forgetting – Everything in Moderation.
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Every child should have an IEP. Every child should have a committee of adults whose job it is to track a child’s interests, proclivities, abilities, etc., and to recommend directions to take. We need to stop thinking in the old one-size-fits-all way. That’s not what a complex, diverse, pluralistic society needs.
I would like to see something like flexible modular scheduling with much more specific courses and kids accumulating portfolios of attainment in those so that no two kids would end up with the same outcomes. And within our courses, I would like to see a lot more possibility for kids to find a passion and run with it.
That’s how we build intrinsically motivated, self motivated, independent learners.
Or, we could stick with the nineteenth-century factory model we’re now following AND EVEN RATCHET THAT UP WITH MORE STANDARDIZATION.
Kids differ. And they differ in ways that we’ve barely begun to understand because we haven’t been paying enough attention to that. Instead, we plop them into the Procrustean bed and lop off whatever doesn’t fit it, and half of them don’t survive the process.
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so that no two kids would end up with the same portfolio of courses in the end
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You might ask, but how would the kid learn to read, to do math, to think?
Well, those would be embedded throughout. The difference is that the kid would be reading about something of significance to him or her and therefore becoming a reader, that the kid would be practicing thinking about something that mattered, that he or she would be learning math and applying it to his or her areas of pursuit/interest, etc.
I could write an entire K-12 mathematics curriculum dealing entirely with the graphic arts.
Look, kids will learn, throughout their lives, if WE HOOK THEM ON LEARNING and make them the drivers of their learning, with our assistance. We don’t do that by putting them all through the same milling machine BECAUSE THEY AREN’T THE SAME.
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Robert – I totally agree. Every child should have an IEP. Of course they deserve an Individualized Educational Plan. If this were possible – we would positively have the best educational system in the world.
Forget the testing – spend the money giving kids the individualized attention they deserve.
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LOL, Cartwheel. You didn’t get the memo. Poverty (and thus money) doesn’t matter when you have new, improved Deformy Magic!
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Robert, you are correct on every point you made.
You should send this following truth to the Edu-Deformers…that is if they could understand …maybe somewhere among them…ONE would understand…and care enough to change this destructive path to nowhere….
“But a child can have perfect pitch and go through twelve years of public schooling without anyone’s ever knowing that. I think that’s a damning thing to say, but it’s absolutely true.”
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Lloyd – my daughters went to the local SUNY Schools (UB and Buff State). They each spent some time in the dorms, even though we lived close by. The cost was about $15,000 a year, $7500 the years they didn’t dorm. We paid as they went. Our gift to them, our investment in their future, no student loan debt.
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My wife started to save before our daughter was born. There will be no debt to pay off for her college degrees and she graduates this year from Stanford.
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Great School. I know you are proud of your daughter’s successes. A clean slate with no debt hanging over her head is the best gift. She’ll be free to spread her wings (but she might need some more help for a little while). It’s a long road to a stable career – hopefully not in education.
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And our daughter attended public schools k-12 (in five different school districts due to our moving several times) while my wife’s friends and even one of her sisters warned her that our daughter would fail miserably in life if we kept her in those terrible, failing public schools—an indication of just how powerful the enemies of public education are as they keep pecking away year after year filling the heads of Americans with propaganda and cherry-picked lies.
The summer after her second year at Stanford, she interned in a biomedical start up developing a non opiate pain killer. At the end of the internship, that company hired her part time and she still works for them as an assistant to the CEO. They even bought her a brand-new Mac laptop in addition to options on 10,000 shares of the company.
The critics of education are like termites who if left alone will eat away the wood frame of the house until it collapses. We need to fumigate by exposing them as often as possible.
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She sounds like my oldest daughter.
All I can say is that “cream rises”.
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I agree with Steinberg that many American teens could afford to put more effort into school work. However I think he needs to add one important caveat: the school work must be content-rich. So much of what kids are asked to do amounts, in my view, to what I call Doing Sh** –tedious assignments that allegedly strengthen their reading, writing or thinking skills, but which impart no concrete knowledge of the world. Kids toiling away in German or Chinese schools may not love the experience, but at least they’re learning something (as they are in Ogozolak’s class). Too often our kids are just Getting Things Done, in which case I think they’re smart to slack off.
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the school work must be content-rich
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
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Standardized test supposedly measures what a student knows. Performance based assessments measure how well a student can apply what they know. For example, students design video games using code, they create podcast and book trailers, they design science fair projects that solve complex thesis statements, Odyssey of the MInd team members solve problems creatively, etc…. If we found a way to test innovation, originality, creativity,and inventiveness, our students would excel.
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yes yes yes
The standardized tests in ELA, btw, do ALMOST NO measurement of anything that might reasonably called content knowledge, and they don’t attempt to do so. And they certainly don’t measure creativity. The standardized high-stakes tests purport to measure abstract, formal skills (the CC$$ is a bullet list of such skills), but, of course, the tests do a terrible job even of that.
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standardized tests measure what a student remembers when they are taking the test. They could have been taught everything that’s on the test but can only answer those correctly they remember and this applies to math, science, etc.
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AlwaysLearning – and it is those activities that make high school worthwhile. They also are a better preparation in developing skills which will make them successful in a career.
Often it is the process, not the content, which is relevant.
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Again, Lloyd, the ELA tests do precious little testing of specific content that the child is to remember. These are mostly tests of vaguely defined, abstract “skills.” Ask Ponderosa about that.
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Testing of any kind should be a tool teachers use to identify where the teacher needs to focus future lessons; to identify areas where the majority of students are having trouble and then meeting with a team of teachers in the same department to come up with strategies for future lessons to overcome. This is what they do in Finland.
The way tests are being used today in the US to judge teachers and label schools failing is wrong on so many levels.
In my class, I monitored student understanding through the school work (as I corrected it) and designed future lessons on the results of the previous lesson. I didn’t even need quizzes or tests to discover weaknesses that needed work.
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You are right Lloyd, and that is what grade level or subject meetings are for – to analyze and strategize.
And the question is: Does CCSS supersede a teacher’s free will?
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Every decision that comes from outside the classroom and team meetings; that is forced on teachers sabotages the education process.
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“Standardized test supposedly measures what a student knows. Performance based assessments measure how well a student can apply what they know.”
The key word is “supposedly”, because in reality, logical, rational reality, standardized tests don’t measure anything because they are not measuring devices. They may “assess” something, of which we’re really not sure, but just because we “numerize” the results doesn’t mean that “something” was measured.
And the same is true for “performance based assessments.
These attempts to “numerize/scientize” assessments of the teaching and learning process are ludicrous!
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I agree entirely, Ponderosa. Get a load of the new CC$$-aligned ELA textbooks coming out. Even though they are organized into thematic units (their nod to content), they are mostly content free. They’ve forgotten that people read about snakes because they want to know about snakes. They incoherently skip from one exercise on one abstractly defined skill to another, completely different exercise on some completely different abstractly defined skill. And all those skills come from the master list of abstractly defined skills that is the horrifically misconceived CC$$ in ELA. Strangely, E.D. Hirsch, Jr., spent decades of his life railing against precisely this abomination in article after article, book after book, and yet his foundation has endorsed the Common Core. I hold out hope that he will recognize what a mistake that was.
I hasten to add that I do not think that we should be teaching some one bullet list of content, either. But we do need to give a d— about content, about world knowledge and specific, concrete procedural knowledge. Why? Well, because knowledge of prerequisite content is essential to the ability to comprehend texts, as Hirsch as pointed out for years, and because THAT’S WHY WE DO THIS STUFF–that’s why we read and think–because the content matters–because someone had something to say about something and that was interesting and important. This all-abstract-skills-all-the-time approach is not in keeping with the PURPOSES of teaching and learning–cultural transmission and innovation based in what was transmitted and then transformed by the learner.
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And by cultural transmission I emphatically do NOT mean indoctrination. I mean that people create cultural materials–books, mathematical proofs, artworks, etc.–for the purpose of communicating with others and that in school we should encounter those communications AS the communications that they are and not, primarily, as so many opportunities to exercise skills.
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My answer to the first question: NO
My answer to the first question: NO
It is reformers and test-makers who are screwing schools and make students act like a robot speaking language on a tape-recorder.
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You have hit a nerve.
There is so much more to an education than high school. My older daughters CHOSE to be B students because they didn’t want to work that hard. They were smart enough to get an A, but with much less effort they took the B and were even willing to risk getting the occasional C. They both graduated from the University of Buffalo and they both have excellent careers. Neither did well on standardized tests. So what!
My goal was to raise WELL ROUNDED children. We went to the Buffalo Zoo, the Albright Knox Art Gallery, the Buffalo Museum of Science, Kleinhans Music Hall. They were in the Band and Chorus at school. We went roller skating, ice skating, bowling. They learned to dance, do gymnastics, ride a horse, sail a boat, swim, play ball. They both earned varsity letters. But the one activity which had the biggest impact on their lives was being in a Baton Corps – The Twin Ton Ettes
Miss Gail taught them determination, self control, grit, and so much more. They learned to be on time, to do their best, to work within a group. They learned that if one person failed, the whole group failed. They learned that you get nowhere without honing your skills. They became the leaders of the Corps. They learned the glory of the win and the agony of defeat. (I learned how to stand still, watch, and hold them when it was over – often until they were done crying). They learned how to keep trying until they succeeded. They taught others the same. They learned how to win and lose gracefully. They both competed and won Championships in their Division. They made me proud.
Other activities do the same. The participants and their parents bond – whether it is dancing, a sport, scouting, etc. These group activities are the backbone of our kids childhood and teens. It’s where they learn how to be people.
I’m sorry, but school can only teach so much. There is more to life than academics. The fact that American teens spend less time on school work than teens in other countries is a good thing. How they do on standardized tests is irrelevant. What kind of adults they become is the key.
And if those other countries look down on the American education system, then why are they sending their kids here for our High School experience? One private high school in the area is planning on building a dormitory for their students. ???
So I resent when the Principal of my grand daughter’s Middle School laments that the students need to limit or eliminate their outside activities so they can spend more time on homework and studying. I’m upset that she had to drop band because she didn’t have enough time to practice. At eleven she should be allowed to be a child. I shudder to think what high school will bring.
Enough already.
Diane – please keep on bringing this issue to the forefront.
Fellow bloggers – keep on reading and blogging until our voice is so loud it can no longer be ignored.
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Well said Ellen and right on target!!
You , along with Robert need to send these to the Edu-Deformers or to some Media Giant who would report the truths of this “One Size Fits All” Mentality created by the non-educators of wealth..
“I’m sorry, but school can only teach so much. There is more to life than academics. The fact that American teens spend less time on school work than teens in other countries is a good thing. How they do on standardized tests is irrelevant. What kind of adults they become is the key.”
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It’s a common phenomenon. Australian teenagers behave similarly when asked to do tests or fill in questionnaires they think are pointless.
A few years back my daughter’s school participated in a study of bullying. The school is the original peaceable kingdom and the girls hate what they see as the stupid and wrong minded emphasis on bullying by the supposed grown ups who run it. When they filled in the questionnaire they made up all kinds of fictitious horrors to indicate they thought it was all rubbish.
The results of the research made front page news shock! Horror! Horrific bullying in our schools! I knew better.
C
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Catherine – it sound like a modern day version of The Crucible.
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Not sure I understand that allusion. No hysteria involved,ore like hilarity. The girls were having a lend of the adults who had so little idea of the reality of the school, which is the girls get on very well and there is no bullying or picking on each other. Kids – particularly teenagers – are unaffected by so much of the nonsense that obsesses some adults. It’s like the real life version of the emperors new clothes, with the kids seeing through the pretense. They can see the moral panic about bullying for what it is.
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Catherine – no hysteria, just teens bucking a system which seems insane and not following the guidelines set by hypocritical adults, and to hell with any repercussions which might arise.
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Agreed, Catherine. Adolescents have superb crap detectors. But they also think that their crap detectors are a lot better than they are.
So, when we tell them that Algebra is important for them to know, they understand, quite well, that, as George Simmons says in his Precalculus Mathematics in a Nutshell, “Its importance lies in the student’s future–and even then only for some students–as essential preparation for the serious study of science, engineering, economics, or some more advanced type of mathematics.” They look about them in the world and see that most adults don’t remember much, if any, Algebra and don’t care to and seem to fare just fine. And so they do the least they have to do to pass the exams to get out of high school or through the SAT or that required college math class or econ class, and then they promptly put the whole thing out of their minds for good.
However, what those adolescents don’t understand is that without Algebra and quite a bit of mathematics beyond that, much of what is now known by some people will be, forever, a closed book, an utter mystery to them, or they understand that much but do not understand why that stuff’s remaining a mystery to them is a loss. In other words, theirs is an unknown unknown (shared by most adults). In his superb Language and Silence, George Steiner points out that there was a time, in the past, when an educated person could know anything that was known but that beginning in the seventeenth century, ever more areas of thought have become expressible ONLY in mathematics untranslatable into ordinary language.
In terms of opportunity cost, it does seem a terrible waste for most people to devote so much time and energy at the beginnings of their lives to something they will gladly and quickly and thoroughly put out of their minds completely and, in most cases, forever. Let’s face it, most adult products of that K-12 mathematics sequence are effectively innumerate and, furthermore, have mostly learned from their mathematics sequence to detest mathematics. But . . . but . . . but . . . say the folks who do care about and know some mathematics . . . without higher math, people are effectively deaf, dumb, and blind to much that is now understood of the world.
So, if we do think that EVERY CHILD should have a full K-12 mathematics sequence, shouldn’t we be rethinking that sequence, dramatically, so that it doesn’t yield the dismal results that we see when we look at not at recent grads but at adults who have been through it and put it happily behind them? I happen to think that the CC$$ in math, quite unlike the CC$$ in ELA, were well prepared, but that they do NOTHING to address this issue, for addressing it would require a RADICAL rethinking of our entire approach to math instruction, and people are loathe to do that and, seemingly, quite content with the utter failure of our current approach for almost everyone who has been through it.
A recent study found that 63 percent of U.S. adults could not calculate a 10 percent tip even though doing so just meant moving the decimal point over one place. That’s how thorough their forgetting was. That’s like spending a few thousand dollars to have your house painted in paint that will wash off entirely the next time it rains. But we’ve had pretty much a consensus with regard to the learning progression in math for many, many decades, and the CC$$ simply tweaks that progression a wee bit and cannot be expected to yield dramatically different long-term outcomes. One would think that an entire nation of educators–people whose business is thinking–would try to come to grips with this problem. But we are timid creatures of habit, even if the habit is costly and wasteful and stupid.
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Thanks to Diane for posting my original letter and for working so hard on behalf of teachers and our students.
I turned on the computer this morning to look for my letter and nearly fell out of my chair when I saw my name mentioned alongside a reference to Dr. Laurence Steinberg. You see, Dr. Steinberg and I exchanged a number of letters many years ago about an op-ed piece he had written in the Times. I’d used his piece in my classes back in the early 1990s and my students took great issue with it. They were, to put it nicely, mad as hell at Larry.
[Dr. Steinberg….. can I call you Larry? The fact that I’ve bumped into you again this way in the middle of the internet after all these years is just a little weird, isn’t it? We ought to get together someday. I’ll buy you a coffee. Hell, I’ll even pay for your lunch. We both graduated from Vassar College so we can talk about the beautiful campus there when we need a break from arguing about education.]
Suffice to say, that if I had to re-do my correspondence with Larry again there’s definitely things I would do differently. And, I’d like to think that Larry might feel the same way.
But, Larry, Diane couldn’t be more right. Many of these tests are bogus. And, the kids know it. They’re certainly smart enough not to waste their time, especially considering the fact that we all seem to have so much less of that time nowadays.
I’m so tired of hearing the same old cliche, “Kids today….blah, blah, blah….” After teaching in a high school for 26 years, I can say that these “kids today” are much more serious and hardworking than my own classmates back in the 1970s. They have to be. We’ve given them no choice.
-John Ogozalek
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Great letter, John!
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John – keep spreading the word. You have some fans among your fellow bloggers.
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Thanks, Ellen. I am somewhat new to this and just wrote something because I’ve been so bothered by what I see happening to my students and my own children….and because I admire Diane so much. I think it’s a real achievement to have something posted on here at all. I have no clue what to do after this….But thanks again. Take care.
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John – keep blogging. We need to add your voice and experiences to the crowd.
Welcome aboard!
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Ellen,
No sooner did I reply to your earlier comment than I saw the post from Dr. Steinberg. I ended up writing something else so I guess I answered my own question!
Stay warm.
-John O.
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These comments are so enlightening and so true…
Robert’s family member with his musical genius…(such talent is not important in the new
Ellen’s daughters who have blossomed and learned more in the Real World than any school could offer….as the schools choose the “academic only track”
We need to change the definition of “Smart” …Intelligence..”
Have you ever heard anyone say???..”I was not smart in school”…(while you wrote the person a check for $3500 for his/her real life skills…..for a half-day job..)
But sir..you are smart !! Your skills are very much needed in this world.
Smart should be re-defined and academics should be one of the many descriptions…..
Many of the other definitions are listed in the comments above.
Sound in Body and Mind !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a definition for Stupid ….but rather than use that crass word to describe the New generation of ED-Deformers..I will instead use the word “Obtuse”
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Oh my Ellen…..
Your paragraph below hits home to so many parents…educators have seen this horrifying trend in education
.The parents have to speak up.
If an educator speaks (they will lose their job in most cases)…but if you are a parent you have the right to express your concerns)
Teachers can not fight this battle alone…
Ellen’s comment
“So I resent when the Principal of my grand daughter’s Middle School laments that the students need to limit or eliminate their outside activities so they can spend more time on homework and studying. I’m upset that she had to drop band because she didn’t have enough time to practice. At eleven she should be allowed to be a child. I shudder to think what high school will bring.”
“eliminate outdoor activities”????????????????????????????? Obtuse!!
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Every person on these boards must have a favorite song..a favorite activity..a favorite hobby…a favorite movie..a favorite sport…a favorite restaurant…a favorite teacher..a favorite friend..a favorite book…a favorite tv show..a favorite weatherman..a favorite construction worker..a favorite automobile dealer.. a favorite vacation spot.. a favorite elected official.. a favorite blogger …a favorite outdoor game..and we all have favorite subjects that interest us more than others..
Message to all students and their parents..
Your favorites are not allowed in this school…..We care nothing about YOUR Interest(s).
If you can nor score 88 or above on our new cc$$ standards then you are a failure…Go away..we do not want you if you are non-academic…find another school
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This one’s for you KrazyTA:
From an old dead guy (or gal) we’re not sure but it is supposedly quite old:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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LOL! Krazy loves her Greeks!
I remember reading a blistering attack on kids listening to those promiscuous Strauss waltzes.
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Robert, KrazyTA is a he
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Ah! Good to know. Sorry, Krazy!
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Vienna’s Strauss Brothers were the hip twerking Elvis & Mylie of yesteryears. Adults in Vienna were convinced that the Strauss’ and their hoop-skirt wearing Walz dancers were going to H—- and a hand basket. Now, the world loves their music.
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Duane – I always loved this quote. It gives me hope for the next generation.
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I’m the author of the Slate column Diane has critiqued. I think my argument is being mischaracterized both by her and some others.
The object of my criticism is our schools, not our kids. Nowhere did I say that American teenagers are lazy. What I said is that they aren’t being challenged. That’s very different. As to the claim that the NAEP data aren’t to be believed, I’m willing to buy that, in part. But the data on the high proportion of high school grads who require remedial education in order to handle college, as well as the high proportion who drop out (often, for non-financial reasons, studies say) aren’t made up. And they drain our education budget. Plus, in addition to the NAEP, there are other sources of information that paint a similar picture, including PISA and TIMMS, as well as surveys conducted by Public Agenda and studies by Tom Loveless, John Bishop, and me (all of whom Diane used to commend). (Contrary to what many people think, other PISA participating countries are required to test the full range of students, not just their college-bound ones).
And as to the anecdotes, that’s exactly what they are. It’s like denying that there’s an obesity epidemic because one knows a couple of thin people, or that there is climate change because it’s been a rough winter in the Northeast and Midwest. Of course there are good teachers, good schools, and good students in the United States. But when 85 percent of American students say they’ve never taken a very difficult class, and when two thirds of American students say school is boring, there clearly is a problem. To pretend otherwise is just plain wrong.
Laurence Steinberg
Professor of Psychology
Temple University
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But when 85 percent of American students say they’ve never taken a very difficult class, and when two thirds of American students say school is boring, there clearly is a problem. To pretend otherwise is just plain wrong.
Agreed. And the way to fix that is not to do more test prep in line with a bullet list of standards that were amateurishly prepared (in ELA) or the same old thing we’ve had for decades now, tweaked a bit (in math).
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“when two thirds of American students say school is boring”
So what!
This isn’t an acceptable excuse. Most of life is repetition and boring. We told our daughter it didn’t matter if the teacher was exciting, incompetent or incredible, her job was to learn and she did.
In the same class with the same teacher and same lesson, there will almost always be kids who say the lesson is boring because teachers can’t compete with reality TV and video games.
I recall that my first job from age 15 to 19 was boring, because I washed the same dishes thirty hours a weeknights and weekends. then I went to school days.
So do we use boring to quit our jobs and become homeless?
“Mom, mowing the lawn and putting out the trash or washing dishes is boring. I want to go have fun?”
If this is the attitude of that many kids, the US is doomed. I imagine it’s boring to work on an assembly line that turns out the jet fighters that defend America but that boring job defends our country and pays well.
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Lloyd – I told both my children and my students the same thing when they complained about the class or the teacher – “That’s life. You better get used to it. You might have a boss, just like your teacher. You might be assigned boring tasks. Learn how to deal with it now, so you’ll be able to handle it when it counts.”
“What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”
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This is more in reply to Lloyd: no, school shouldn’t be boring. Per se. It might be difficult, any number of things, but if it’s actually boring, then there’s a problem with the material or teaching — something.
Which is not to say that every student is going to find every subject fascinating, that’s just fantasy. I suppose some boredom comes with the territory, but it should be minimal. If a student is bored, maybe there’s something else going on. If everyone is bored, then it’s probably the teaching or material.
Maybe it’s just a matter of pacing. I know that comments on this blog are generally against the “sit in front of the computer” type learning, but, done properly, it has great potential. Like everything else, it depends on the execution.
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On average—probably more than average—being a bored kid in today’s classroom has more to to do with watching too much TV, playing video games, listening to music plugged into ears through iPod, not getting enough sleep and a sugar-rich, nutrition poor diet, etc.
This happens more after lunch than before lunch. After lunch when most of the kids drank a 60 ounce soda (with maybe a bag of greasy French fries or a slice of cheese pizza) and by the time they reach class, they have little or no energy left to do anything let alone focus on a teacher struggling to teach. That lack of energy quickly translates into boredom.
For twenty five hundred kids, the high school where I taught offered one large bowl of fruit at lunch. Fruit and salad were not very popular. But sodas, fries and cheese pizza were. Do you know what happens in the body after eating a lot of white flour? The white flour quickly converts to glucose, blood sugar, adding to the sugar in the bloodstream from that 60 ounce soda and too much glucose hitting the brain is like high octane jet fuel that6 sabotages the attention span, messes with memory that may also cause dark mood swings in some children.
There’s also breakfast. Studies show that it is vital for a child to start the day with a nutritious breakfast. For years, I would ask my kids what they had for breakfast before coming to school. This would lead to a discussion. Of 34 kids on average, less than five, usually two or three, had a somewhat nutritious breakfast. Most, before they came to class, filled up on sodas and French fries. That was their breakfast.
As you may have guessed by now, I’m sort of a nutrition nut and I’ve been reading a lot on this topic since 1982 (why I became so health conscious is another story).
In fact, to deal with this mass produced short attention span that leads to boredom, I often structured the lessons in my classroom to shift every fifteen to twenty minutes, because I discovered if we focused on one lesson for the full class period, boredom quickly set in and many of the kids lost interest in what we were doing and numbed out.
If one fifteen to twenty minute lesson segment required more time, we’d pick up again the next day or more days if needed and so on for a series of overlapping short attention span moments.
Shifting from one short lesson segment to another usually meant I had to be out in front of the class using a loud dramatic voice to grab their attention and refocus it. This was exhausting for me to keep up for 180 days.
At least 80% of the children who have average or below average parents need this sort of environment to stay engaged or they quickly lose interest and become bored.
However, kids who had above average parents—for instance, an Amy Chua who has been vilified as a tiger parent by those parents who talk to their children in meaningful conversation 3.5 minutes a week or less while the child spends hours a day watching endless TV and/or playing video games—could stay focused on one lesson for much longer than the usually 15 minute trained attention span from watching too much TV or playing too many violent video games.
Our daughter is one of those children would could focus on one lesson all period. After all, she was raised to be responsible for learning regardless of the style of teaching used. In fact, if she came home with a grade less than an A,her mother, my wife, was on her way to school for a teacher conference to learn why. Our daughter quickly learned they tasking questions usually meant earning As and kept mother at home.
So she often raised her hand to ask questions during long boring lessons to make sure she understood what the teacher was teaching. She raised her hand so many times to ask questions that other children started to pressure her to stop because it made them look bad. In fact, in seventh grade she received death threats to stop. To remove the risk, we sold our house and moved to a higher-rated public school in a nearby town. The kid who threatened her was kicked out of the school and had to enroll elsewhere to continue his education. I was the catalyst that made this all happen. It helps to know how the system works and what the administrators fear most.
Our daughter also had to refuse to let kids copy her homework. This led to me teaching her how to defend herself like a U.S. Marine with hand to hand combat skills, and she used one of these combat moves on her first boyfriend who took up the habit of smoking cigarettes because he promised her he would stop and lied. She was angry. Then she broke up after him soon after he could breath and walk again. I’m glad she didn’t cripple or kill him. She was 14 or 15 at the time.
Do not judge teachers by the multiple choice surveys kids fill out. Instead, go sit in those classes and observe for yourself what’s going on.
My wife and daughter did that in my class and they know what’s going on. And often the boredom wasn’t caused by boring teachers or lessons.
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It was the dog and pony show for me. Lots of active participation and various parts to the lesson. It works.
I don’t do too well with boring lectures either. I usually brought crossword puzzles to complete during in services (so few were worth my full attention).
I told you our daughters were alike. My eldest was harassed at school and we actually moved to a different school district to get away from the bullies since the school didn’t do a good job of protecting her. In eighth grade she got two Ds and I made her go to summer school (I paid for her to attend the program at the school district where we ended up). She took study skills and keyboarding. Best investment of time ever. The study skills taught get her how to get organized and she received high school credit for the keyboarding class. She also never got a D again.
I was never as strict as your wife. I just encouraged my kids to do their best work. I wanted them to internalize the goal, not just do it for me. It’s a skill which pays off in any career. (Duane – putting forth your best effort, not the grade, should be the goal, but an A is a nice validation. On the job, a raise and/or a bonus is the adult version of a high score.)
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I did tell our daughter that a C or better was okay with me, but my wife is Chinese who was born and grew up in China and they have a different perspective on grades there. In China, many parents think anything less than an A is an F.
But I did win when I suggested that our daughter should shoot to become a scholar athlete because that might help her get into the college of her choice more than a high SAT score.
So she went out for Pole Vault—-not a sport I would have selected for her but the sport was her choice—and by age 16 she was ranked in the top five for the state of California while keeping her high school GPA above 4.0.
It’s frightening to see your teenager daughter come home after Pole Vault practice at 8PM and she’s limping with bruises all over her from sometimes missing the pad when jumping more than 12 feet high. But she seems to have loved it with a passion. Even the work outs where they tied a rope around her ankles and hoisted her twenty feet into the air hanging upside down in the air and she had to do situps in that position and touch her knees with her elbows.
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Lloyd – it’s a heady feeling seeing your daughter compete and a wonderful experience to be one of the best. My daughters were both Miss Majorette of NYS and went on to compete in their division at the Nationals at Notre Dame. They also performed in a Dance Corps and Parade Corps. It was a proud moment to see them introduce the group in the arena. Lots of practice time.
Competition, in any venue, teaches a lot of positive values which carry over throughout life – both the successes and the losses (I won’t say failures, because any participation is a positive experience, no matter what the outcome.)
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So true.
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Absolutely, I agree with everything you say. Not to weasel out of what I wrote, but I think I wrote (or should’ve written) that “something” is wrong if 50%, or choose your own percentage, of a class is bored.
What you’re up against, particularly with regards to nutrition, is a particular interpretation of the Constitution, Christianity and the Free Market (capitalized) where giving money for food for students is some sort of socialist indoctrination and wealth redistribution, not to mention tyranny.
-Thufir
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In addition, a lot of the free lunch food is surplus purchased from farmers. From what I saw of free lunch food while I was still teaching a lot of it wasn’t that nutritious. I wouldn’t want to feed that food to a dog or cat.
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Many years ago (25+) Dr. Steinberg wrote an op-ed piece for the Times comparing attitudes towards schooling in the U.S. versus cultural differences in Japan.. It was a fascinating article and I used the piece for years because my students were invariably insulted by what Dr. Steinberg wrote and it provoked great classroom discussions. (In fact, I used the article when I went for a job interview back in 1993. The upscale suburban school where I was interviewing wanted me to teach a sample class. That Dr. Steinberg lesson was so good that the principal offered me the job right on the spot. Thanks, Doc! Though, I decided not to take that job and ended up staying at my small, rural school, a decision I’ve never regretted.)
The first time I used that op-ed piece my kids were so interested that I had them write letters to Dr. Steinberg. This was all prior to the advent of e-mail, blogging, and twitter. We’re talking the last century. And, the good doctor very generously replied in writing, making a point very similar to his comments above -that, yes, data does matter. I really appreciated Dr. Steinberg’s willingness to correspond with my class way back then and I vividly remember reading his comments verbatim and using his letter again and again to teach my kids about how social sciences work. Great.
But then I picked up a copy of Dr. Steinberg’s 1996 book…”Beyond the Classroom” which expanded on that original Times op-ed piece. And, damn, there was my class -my students!- mentioned in a not so nice way.
The kids had written letters that, in hindsight, I should have had them revise more and proofread. That was my mistake, my sloppiness -a lesson I learned as a new teacher many years ago. But, boy, the reference to my students in that book was sort of nasty and, if I remember right, kind of factually off base, also. Wow. Had Dr. Steinberg been a bit sloppy, too? I remember being pretty mad. I was hurt because our original correspondence had been so positive and friendly. And, these were great kids! But there we were, amid the ocean of data in that book… one of the few islands of real life people.
I remember writing Dr. Steinberg repeated letters after that book came out hoping he’d revise later editions of his work. I think I had some of the kids write, too. But then I bought another copy and nothing about my class seemed to be changed. I kept writing Dr. Steinberg so much about the book that, if I remember correctly, he eventually threatened to TELL MY PRINCIPAL ON ME! (Which is still really funny because as union president I was such a pain in the ass to my principal back then that when I went to tell him he might be getting a call from a professor down at Temple University, he just sort of shook his head and said nothing. What next!)
My wonderful wife remembers all the details of the “Dr. Steinberg affair” much better than me, God bless her. We were talking about it yesterday after Diane posted that great piece based on my original letter to her.
For years, I kept my copies of Beyond the Classroom really WAY beyond my classroom, stored in a derelict farmhouse we have down the road on the family property. But then, we had to clean out that building and the books and most of the other stuff associated with the “Steinberg Affair” got chucked into a trash truck. Actually wheelbarowed in by one of the students I’d hired to help out. How’s that for irony? Sorry, doc.
I had to move on. I have so many students I need to worry about every day…kids I care about. I barely have enough time to talk to all the wonderful people I see each morning….kids who are happy or scared or bored or just plain missing from my classroom….where are they? The only reason I have time to be writing this right now is that we have yet another snow day off….otherwise I’d be sitting in my classroom at this moment….6:30 a.m…getting ready for another day.
I can actually laugh about my much younger self, the great and scary times I had as a beginning teacher and the way the world was back then prior to the internet. But here we are, Dr. Steinberg, still on opposite sides of the same divide.
Data does matter but we’re not just numbers. We’re people and this system is dehumanizing us.
To that end, Larry, I really would like to bury the hatchet from years ago. I’m sure you’re a fascinating, intelligent, great guy to talk to. I WOULD buy you lunch.
But Diane Ravitch, as I wrote to her yesterday, deserves dinner at the best restaurant in town!
Be well.
-John O.
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“To that end, Larry, I really would like to bury the hatchet from years ago. I’m sure you’re a fascinating, intelligent, great guy to talk to. I WOULD buy you lunch. ”
He’s not worth lunch. He used you and your kids and didn’t have the decency to tell you what he was going to do, much less ask. His response to your repeated attempts to get an explanation of what he had done just showed me that he knew he had acted unprofessionally. How many of us would appreciate having private correspondence appear in a book? He sounds like a man who is much too impressed with himself. I wouldn’t buy him coffee.
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+1
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John – you sound like a great guy and an even better teacher. Too many college professors reign over a hypothecate domain with no connection to the reality of the issues facing the modern teacher. This particular prof sounds like an ass.
You’ve gotten more attention with your posts than he’s done through the sale of his outdated book, thanks to Diane Ravitch’s blog. Keep up the good work.
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There is nothing wrong with the kids. They are scared and frustrated because they know they have been cheated out of a real education because of tests and funding. In fact, given the world they are facing I would argue that they are remarkably engaged and optimistic.
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Omg please explain how they are getting screwed? I’ve seen multiple videos where people are asking collage grads questions like what continent do they live on, who fought on the Spanish American War, what’s 3x3x3, who fought in the Civil War and getting answer back like “which Civil War? The 1st, 2nd or 3rd, it matters ya know?” Not one could answer any of those questions. All things we learned in elementary school or is common sense. Please please explain how they are getting screwed
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Pete M. says he’s “seen multiple videos where people are asking collage grads questions like what continent do they live on”
Ah, were you there? Did you follow wherever had the camera and mike? All one has to do is interview enough people until you have a few that don’t know shit.
Ask a hundred people and how many wouldn’t be able to answer these stupid questions that reveal nothing about what kind of worker those people are and so much more.
Pete M, you also misspelled “college.”
It’s easy to think that whoever had the camera and mike would ask people if they were college grads. Did the interviewer fact check if they were college grades, or were people that enjoy reading.
I’m a college grade. I know what continent I live on. I know about all those wars. I’m also an avid reader and it was from reading thousands of books over the years, outside of class that I learned all of those facts, not from my k-12 public school years or most if not all of my college classes. I didn’t take classes to learn about the kind of questions idiots running around with cameras ask.
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Did you catch my typos? grade for grad. How many can you find?
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I’m back. I scanned your comment again and the answer to those questions has nothing to do about “common sense”.
Common sense is “good sense and sound judgment in practical matters.” Common sense has nothing to do with memorizing facts that probably won’t pay you anything to know and remember.
“Common sense is the knowledge that all humans have. Such knowledge is unspoken and unwritten – we take it for granted. We acquire it imperceptibly from the day we are born. For example, “animals don’t drive cars” or “my mother is older than me”.”
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