I disagree with this post by a faithful reader. But I think it deserves discussion.
There are many reasons to object to privatization.
One is that there is no evidence that privately managed firms that operate public services provide more efficient or less costly service. Another is that privately managed firms, when operating for profit, extract public dollars for investors that taxpayers intended for children, for educational programs that directly benefit children, for reduced class sizes, —and not to enrich shareholders. Privately managed nonprofits often pay salaries that would be unacceptable in the public sector. Privately managed firms tend to exclude the costliest clients to minimize their own costs, thus leaving the hardest cases for the less well funded public sector agency. And last, to destroy public education, which is so inextricably linked to our notions of democracy and citizenship would be an assault on the commonweal. Let us not forget that public education has been the instrument of the great social movements for more than the past half century–desegregation, gender equality, disability rights, and the assimilation of immigrants. Once it is gone, it is gone, and that would be a crime against ourselves.
The reader writes:
“Ladd and Fiske correctly identify the four risks to the public education system of the privatization movement, but they assume that the public education system is an unqualified “good.” What if privatization produces different and better goods? Public education implements mainly a “progressive” philosophy of government. By the word “democracy” it means government control of education and almost everything else it can get its hands on. “Social justice” is the well-worn substitute term for ‘redistribute the wealth.’ I mean no name calling to point out that has been the communist agenda from the beginning and remains the communist agenda.
“The whole point of privatization, then, is to free American education from the statist agenda (which implies ‘community’ responsiblity for every individual and submission of every individual to the tyranny of the community). Most here see public education as an unmixed good. It’s opponents think otherwise, and their motives are clear.
“What is most surprising, however, is to find the Obama Education Department so staunchly behind the measures that we ALL agree are destroying the public school systems. NCLB? RTTT? CCSS? What true educator can support that testing to extinction? It baffles me why Obama/Duncan want to eliminate the public school systems when their objectives in every other area of life, especially health care, is anti individual freedom.
“Ladd and Fiske, then, are totally correct in saying that the privatization movement sees public goods as merely the sum of the individual goods arising from education. I say that is the way it should be in America. What are claimed as social goods lost by privatization are, in my view, really social “bads.” They are mainly accustoming citizens to acquiesce in state control of their lives. There’s been enough of that already.”

“What if privatization produces different and better goods?”
Give me some examples of times when that’s actually happened. I’ll give you some examples that haven’t worked out so well:
Chicago: parking meters
Indiana: toll road
Everywhere: for-profit prisons
Of course, the classic example of the “benefit” of privatization is FedEx which originated and perfected the idea of overnight shipping. Okay, but FedEx will never be able to deliver a letter from Nowhere, North Dakota to Somewhere, South Carolina for 45 cents. If you think it’s somehow fair that residents of small towns should have to pay more for the same service than people of big cities, then I guess privatization is your game. But I venture to think that most people think that’s unfair. But that’s what’ll happen with privatization – different prices and different services for different people. Now maybe that’s fair if you’re talking about luxury items. Not everyone deserves a Ferrari (although, given the lack of public transportation, I could make an argument that everyone deserves a reliable vehicle of some sort). But when you’re talking about basic services such as education, health care, mail delivery, etc., everyone deserves quality basic service. If people want to use their own money to buy a Ferrari-type education, health plan, etc., that’s fine, so long as that option doesn’t deprive everyone else of decent basic service.
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Dienne, there’s a problem with your FedEx example. It’s not just that FedEx doesn’t deliver to Nowhere, North Dakota for 45 cents — it’s that they charge way more than 45 cents AND hire the USPO to take over what they call the “last mile.”
What this means is, FedEx gets the letter/package to say, Bismark, then the USPO finishes the job; the mailman was going to go to Mr. Recipient’s house, anyway. So what FedEx does isn’t really privatizing, it’s more like cherry-picking the profitiable part.
FedEx and UPS could not exist without the Post Office but the Post Office could exist (and would be better off) without FedEx and UPS. Funny how that works, huh? It’s also worth noting that Constitution mandates that we have a national postal service.
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“…cherry-picking the profitiable part.”
Yes, that’s pretty much what privatization is – private companies fighting to provide only the profitable part of any service. We see it all the time in education. That’s why these “miracle schools” rarely take very many ESL kids, or kids with learning or behavior disabilities. It’s too expensive to provide those kind of services. Much easier to take the cream of the crop and tout the “miracles” that charter schools perform with them.
Your objection doesn’t undermine my point, it supports it, although perhaps I wasn’t being very clear.
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Just decided that my New Year’s resolution is going to be to not accept anymore heartache from teabag rants.
Deregulation is always good and government is always bad –until disaster strikes and they want to know where the firefighters, cops or FEMA are, unless they have the resources and where-with-all to hire their own.
People who support the tyranny of the dollar and label social justice “communism” tend to be those who already have more dollars and tyrannical power than the majority of us combined, or think they have an inside track on joining the elite, or they are so entrenched in rugged individualism ideology that they just don’t give a hoot about humanity..
Henceforth, deflecting heartache strikes from those with no heart at all.
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There are many thoughtful comments on this posting, but…
Chi, you saved me time and effort that are better employed elsewhere.
Thanks.
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Thanks, KrazyTA! Sometimes, you just have to put up the shield and not let all the nonsense from uncaring, greedy folks get to you.
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I get UPS and FedEx stuff all the time and I have never had the USPS deliver one of their packages. The reason FedEx and/or UPS doesn’t deliver 45 cent letters is because it would be against the law. The government has a monopoly on all first class mail and will let no one compete with them. USPS is a particularly bad example of poorly managed government operations. Amtrak is no better. Same with the TVA and public schools.
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I’ve gotten those UPS and FedEx packages from the USPS partnership programs delivered to me by USPS. I had read about problems some people had with that but I haven’t encountered any. Often though, if I’m due to get a UPS or FedEx delivery the same time they are supposed to pass it off to USPS, they just deliver it directly to me when they bring the other packages instead.
Personally, I prefer USPS and wish there weren’t so many retailers that use UPS and FedEx, because you have to be home to answer the door to get packages delivered by them, or they may take a chance and leave them outside where they can be seen and stolen. Plus, I like mail deliveries on Saturdays. After years of inconsistent USPS service in my area, I’ve seen dramatic improvements this past year, which included many days when I received residential deliveries twice on the same day (which reminds me of my childhood) and even Sunday deliveries.
I think cable TV might be a better example. After decades of a monopoly by one company in my area, we now have many companies to choose from and I’ve used several. However, I’m still waiting for the regular prices to go down, because after the introductory offers expire, the cost goes back to being outrageously high for each company. And I’m not even going to touch on the issues around services..
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UPS, FedEx and USPS all leave packagas on your doorstep with a signature. At least they do on mine. Most UPS and FedEx deliveries require a signature but I specifically ask some shippers to no require a signature. I haven’t tried the “insurance” path with either UPS or FedEx, but I have with USPS and the experience was very bad. Basically after 6 months or so, we just gave up. (Laptop computer sent to son. Broken and USPS asked for all kinds of support documents and shuffled us around until exhaustion won out.)
My person shipping experience is about 1 letter in 200 bounces for no reason. I have had letters returned that were correctly addressed. I cannot explain why that happens. (My guess is that it goes to the wrong city and they USPS folks there simply mark return rather than send it onto the correct location.)
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And this: ““Social justice” is the well-worn substitute term for ‘redistribute the wealth.”
No, “social justice” is just an unnecessarily long substitute for “justice”. Read Glenn Greenwald’s latest book (WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR SOME) and tell me it’s okay that elite political and business leaders can get away with virtually anything prosecution-free, while poor black/brown/Muslim/etc. people are constantly surveilled and arrested, prosecuted and jailed at rates many times that of affluent whites. The people who caused the crash of 2008 have escaped any form of prosecution, and their cons go on, as we’ve since seen with the foreclosure scandal and the UBS LIBOR rate scandal (and probably others I’m not remembering off the top of my head). Yet try being black and getting caught with a small amount of marijuana (which most people think should be legal anyway). “Social justice” is about correcting those and many other disparities. It’s not about giving anyone anything they didn’t “earn”; it’s about giving everyone an equal opportunity to earn what they can.
BTW, do you object to “redistributing the wealth” when it goes upward? For instance, the fact that Wal-Mart gives its new hires food stamp applications because they know they don’t pay their workers enough to live on, so they expect the government (i.e., taxpayers like you and me) to do it for them?
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Thank you, Dienne, I too was going to point out that privatization is a form of redistributing wealth upward.
Notice also the author’s conflation of “democracy” with “government,” whereas it is the forces of the state, captured by business interests, that is imposing the privatization agenda in the schools. To do this, the author brings up the canard of “government” (dog whistle for socialist/totalitarian) schools.
The fact is, with the exception of urban districts under mayoral or state control, where parents and citizens have been disenfranchised, our public schools – for all their limitations and shortcomings – are community schools.
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“By the word “democracy” it means government control of education and almost everything else it can get its hands on. “Social justice” is the well-worn substitute term for ‘redistribute the wealth.’ I mean no name calling to point out that has been the communist agenda from the beginning and remains the communist agenda.”
What I get out of this paragraph is that there are still many Americans that haven’t really outgrown McCarthyism, and that we … have to avoid terms like “democracy” and “social justice” when critiquing the education reform movement?
There is just so much fear and paranoia, and language is so easily co-opted. But privatization of education really is about taxpayers subsidizing private entities — we should start calling it socialism for privately-owned businesses, because that’s what it is. There is nothing ruggedly individualistic about so-called private businesses getting tax breaks and public money to run their schools. Socialism for the rich — now it’s time for some new phrasing.
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Terms like “communist agenda” tend to shut me down. This is why I tend not to watch Fox (sic) News.
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Agree.
Also the “gay agenda”, the “feminist agenda”, the “militant black agenda”….
To the “faux news” crowd, there seem to be all these groups just poised to pounce and take over at any moment.
😉
“Paranoia wil destroy you”
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There isn’t evidence???? Do some research: http://www.edchoice.org/research/reports/a-win-win-solution–the-empirical-evidence-on-school-vouchers.aspx
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The district that has had vouchers for 22 years–the longest ever–is Milwaukee. It is also one of the lowest performing districts in the nation on federal tests, ranking just above Detroit. Black students in voucher schools, charter schools and public schools do equally poorly, as the public funds are split into three sectors. Is that evidence?
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I will also point out that Detroit has had charters for nearly 20 years. So much for innovation and competition leading to improvement of education. According to our state legislature, the answer in more charters.
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Wow, you mean an organization that favors vouchers found “studies” that show that vouchers work? How surprising.
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The “case” here for privatization is remarkably muddled, and wrong as a result. The fundamental problem with it is that it confuses privatization with charter schools, where there is government sub-contracting with fewer controls. I know that ‘privatization’ is the term usually used, but it should be avoided—and I think you should avoid it here, Diane— just because it engenders such confused and wrong arguments.
The private market does have advantages, but that is when it is actually private and competitive. Private schools do work. But they are only accessible by those who pay for them. True privatization would be to abolish the public schools, and leave the market place to work. That would work for the rich, but the poor would then just go without schooling, or have special schools with inferior quality. Because poor parents could pay little, they would have enormous classes, untrained teachers, etc.
Calling charter schools ‘private’ when they are just subcontracted gives the illusion that they have the advantages of the competitive forces of the true private market, but they don’t. Vouchers for private schools are another issue, which deserves a different discussion.
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We disagree. As you will see in a post next week, charter schools have gone to court and to the NLRB insisting that they are “private,” not public, on issues related to state labor laws and student discipline. The receipt of public funding does not make an agency public. Charter schools claim to be public when collecting money, but insist they are private when it comes to oversight.
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I have to agree with William Berkson here. The way the term “privatization” is used here is misleading. Is the highway system privatized because governments do not do the actual construction of the roads and instead contract them out?
I also do not think any serious person sees education as the sum of individual goods. Education clearly has positive external benefits.
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The state and federal courts have repeatedly ruled, in response to the request of charter operators, that they are “private entities,” not public schools. The National Labor Relations Board reached the same decision just weeks ago, at the request of a Chicago charter school that wants to be exempt from state labor law. So, TE, you may have your opinion but the courts don’t agree.
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Thanks, Diane. I’m surprised that they are legally private, because if I understand them rightly they use public funds, and public institutions decide whether to grant and withdraw the charter. These two conditions make the economic pressures on them quite different from schools that are fully private. Perhaps a term like ‘publicly funded private schools’ will work. My point is just that those who say these “must” work because of “free market” principles don’t have a leg to stand on.
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Time for the people’s representatives to get to work and create some good regulations.
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Right, “the people’s representatives” are the ones who gave schools with free funds and no regulatory oversight away to for-profiteers and non-profiteers in the first place. And that’s the appeal, too –all this purse-giving with no strings attached. I don’t think any party involved is going to stop the gravy train anytime soon unless it’s by court order.
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Many posters here argue that it is essential that the people’s elective representatives control the education of almost all our children. If you have no faith in their ability to make good decisions about regulating charters, do you have any faith in their controlling the public schools?
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No, not in urban school districts under mayoral control with puppets on appointed school boards who give away schools to cronies. I don’t see parents on elected school boards in suburban school districts giving away their neighborhood schools.
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So your objection is to which elected representative controls the school. School board is good, mayor is bad.
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If you live in a mayor-controlled district, TE, you come to appreciate checks and balances.
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Appreciation of checks and balances probably depends on each individual’s point of view. It certainly benefits the status quo.
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TE, another word for “checks and balances” is democracy. Most Americans think it is a good idea. Dictators don’t like checks and balances. Nor do authoritarian rulers.
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This is very common with public programs that are situated in private child care centers. School districts subcontract out to them and provide funding, such as for PreK programs, but the centers remain private.
Often, they have multiple funding streams and receive additional government monies, such as from the state for subsidized child care, for the federal food program, etc. That doesn’t change their status as either a private program or as a non-profit or a for-profit program.
The difference between them and charter schools is that child care centers are accountable to each of the agencies providing funds, including the school district. My district provides regular professional development for them as well. They have to be licensed, too, so child care centers must also comply with city and state licensing standards..
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Actually check and balances are not about democracy, but more about cooling the passions. If I can quote from the US Senate’s website:”To the framers themselves, Madison explained that the Senate would be a “necessary fence” against the “fickleness and passion” that tended to influence the attitudes of the general public and members of the House of Representatives.”
As an atheist living in a Christian society, I can also appreciate the anti democratic limits placed on our government. Checks and balances exist not to foster democracy, but to prevent a tyranny of the majority.
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Checks and balances exist because Jefferson feared a tyranny of the minority, “Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone.”
He saw educating the common people as critical to preserving freedom and preventing the rise of “kings, priests and nobles” –and we certainly do seem to have a minority ruling class of nobles dictating policies today. And many of them are the people who don’t want common kids taught critical thinking skills.
“I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness…Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
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I carry that Jefferson quote with me wherever I go.
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To TE:
Checks and balances are built into our Constitution. They are part of the woof and weave of democracy. They are a counter to the tyranny of the executive, a check against one-man rule. They slow down the legislature so that change is made in a deliberative manner. And the Supreme Court is there to protect against the tyranny of the majority. Does the system work perfectly? No. But as Churchill said about democracy, it’s better than the rest.
For you to claim that checks and balances has nothing to do with democracy……well, lets just say I don’t understand it. It’s akin to saying our Constitution has nothing to do with democracy.
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I did not mean to suggest that checks and balances in our government have nothing to do with democracy. The checks and balances function as a LIMIT to democracy in the country.
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To TE:
Checks and balances are built into our Constitution. They are part of the woof and weave of democracy. They are a counter to the tyranny of the executive, a check against one-man rule. They slow down the legislature so that change is made in a deliberative manner. And the Supreme Court is there to protect against the tyranny of the majority. Does the system work perfectly? No. But as Churchill said about democracy, it’s better than the rest.
For you to claim that checks and balances has nothing to do with democracy……well, lets just say I don’t understand it. It’s akin to saying our Constitution has nothing to do with democracy.
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Paranoia runs rampant in the OP’s comments. There was no evidence of a lack of quality among the majority of public school in the national system.
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I would ask the writer:
1. Who is this “government” you are so afraid of? Recall a little blurb “government of, by, and for the people? We are the government. We elect them, from the prez. on down to city councils, dog catchers AND school boards. Don’t like them? Vote them out. Back a candidate, run yourself. Don’t like your corporate overlord? Tough luck.
2. Are you confusing communism with socialism? I would agree that public schools (and public roads and public parks, etc. ) are socialism. We are all asked to chip in according to our means so that we can all have a school, a park and a road, etc. even if you never use said amenity. Communism is a political system that I see no evidence of in your comments (or anywhere else for that matter). As WB said (@9:35), true privatization (capitalism) would mean to abolish all public schools, stop collecting tax money for education and let parents be responsible for the education of their children. The ensuing mess should be obvious. Do you think this is a good idea?
3. Can you honestly say you do not care for “social justice”? Really? No civil rights? Not interested in women’s rights? No LGBT rights? No true freedom of (and from) religion? Are you sure? Social justice is the radical idea that all people are created equal, that every human being has dignity and that human rights are valued. What is so terrifying here?
The writer seems very afraid of some menace lurking just around the corner, and yet missed the monster that is right this very minute picking his (her) pocket.
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“The whole point of privatization, then, is to free American education from the statist agenda …”
OK, so there it is for all to see. This is a politically motivated agenda, lacking any genuine effort to improve education as a whole. The bottom line is, “Let’s take education out of the hands of those nasty liberals and see to it that thoughtful conservatives like ourselves are in charge.”
Is “redistribution of wealth” a goal of today’s educational system? If by that you mean helping to provide more and more opportunities for average individuals to learn the skills needed to earn a living and become part of the economic equation, then yes, it is. If by that you mean indoctrinating students with liberal values that lead to taxation of the rich to provide revenue for entitlement programs, then no, it isn’t. That’s not to say that “redistribution of wealth” is not among the components of a liberal political philosophy.
Having taught in a suburban school district for 37 years, I can safely say that parents are the primary source of students’ values. And that is as it should be. As a civics teacher, it was not my job to teach my students that my conservative values are the superior values. It is my job to teach my students how the system works and what certain political “isms” operate. Having carefully maintained political neutrality in my classroom, I can safely say the values of my students were those they brought into class at the beginning of the year. Their ability to function politically, in pursuit of those values, was my goal.
As I would not use the lessons in my classroom as a tool to mold students’ values, neither should those who support education reform. Ed reform should be limited to finding the means to generate the most learning possible with the resources available. This is not a goal that fits in with this author’s stated purpose.
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The author asks “What if privatization produces different and better goods?” I would love to hear where that has happened in education, with unbiased, independent research (as opposed to self funded self-promotion by KIPP and the like). The CREDO report was clear – 17% did better in charter schools – 45% did worse, and the rest were the same as in public schools. That is NOT different and better.
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It seems to have produced the best system of higher education in the world. Might we take that as some evidence that it might do something for K-12?
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No.
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Interesting. Could you elaborate?
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Can anyone elaborate on why the success of higherm ducation based on choice is not relevant to answer Dianne’s question “I would love to hear where that has happened in education…”?
Perhaps it is that higher education is not actually education, or that twelfth grade is so different from thirteenth grade that it requires a completely different institutional framework. I don’t agree with either of these explanations, so I am very puzzled
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Damn big fingers, should be higher education, not higherm duration.
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Apples and oranges. There are significant differences between K-12 and higher education. Laws mandate that a free K-12 public school education be provided for children –who are not just little adults– and their participation is compulsory. Higher education does not call first year students “13th graders” for good reason: College is for grown-ups. Adults may attend at any age. College is optional and even public colleges charge tuition and other fees.
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Can you expand some more about the apples and oranges? Why does tha age of the student require a different structure? I would think that the deference between a 6 year old and an 17 year old is far far more important than the difference between a 17 year old and a 19 year old. Why not a different structure for the 6 and 17? And I might point out that some college students are younger than high school students. My foster son graduated from high school at 19, my biological son is likely to graduate from college at 20.
High school is also optional for many students, so I don’t see that as a difference. I don’t see that the two educational institutions are that different.
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Well for one, students 18 and over are responsible for their college record. Parents cannot intervene nor are they consulted. However, parents are held responsible for the finances. Even parents with children well into adulthood are held responsible.
When I first applied to graduate school, I was 24 and no longer living at home. Yet the university asked for my parents’ tax records in order to review my case for financial aid. I refused to put my parents in that position, so I ended up forfeiting the opportunity. Apparently my being self-employed was not enough to warrant the necessary assistance I needed, and I truly could not afford to pay for this school on my own. It wasn’t until many years later, when I had a job with a steadier paycheck, that I re-applied.
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Of course many college students are younger than 18. My son was 17 when he want to college as was my spouse. My son’s youngest housemate in college started college at 15.
But in any case why should students have no choice of building (unless of course there is a magnet public school) at 17 and complete choice and a public subsidy at 18?
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Teachingeconomist, the exact methods of government control do matter, and you can’t just broad brush the government as incompetent or competent. Our federal government, for example, both went to the moon, a success, and went to Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, a failure.
As people are noting, there are big differences between adult and children’s education,. However, I do think that after the school leaving age our education system would best become more diverse than it is now. But for k-10, I don’t see any evidence that schemes of changed governance of the schools, such as the semi-privatization of charter schools vouchers, etc., have had any benefit. There is a real problem of thinking that changing governance will solve every problem.
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Of course good government results in good outcomes, bad government in poor outcomes. The posters on this blog often 1) talk about the virtues of complete government control of education and 2) lament what happens when you give the government complete control of education. That is a point that has been bothering me for some time.
I note that you have cut two years off the usual K-12 standard of public education, and I agree that the lessons from higher education are less relevant for younger students. But it is relevant to older students, and all Dianne wanted was to hear about where “privatization” (and I agree the term is misleading) has resulted in better and different education. Do you disagree that this has been the case in higher education?
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I’m getting tired of you making things up, TE. What teachers here have said that they want government to have total control of education? Teachers would like to have autonomy in their classrooms, not year after year of top down directives from people who know nothing about education or children.
And, had you studied child development, you would know that there are significant differences between teenagers and adults, including in the development of the frontal lobes and executive functions.
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And BTW, states have been raising the drop out age to 18..
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TE, you are stuck in a one way state of mind, focused only on your own agenda and trying to justify why you are right and educators are wrong.
You completely ignored what Diane said about the difference between school districts that have elected school boards and districts that have had mayors take over and appoint their buddies to the board. The mayors also appointed non-educator superintendents, such as Arne Duncan, because cronies in the state permitted them to circumvent state laws which require superintendents to be trained and certified educators in all other districts.
You only care about your own kids and your wallet. Educators are concerned about all kids.
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Chi Res,
Many many posts here talk of the importance of local political control over schools by the local elected school board. That is political control over the schooling of most students in the district. I do agree that teachers would LIKE the local school board to allow them much autonomy in the class room, but that is a preference about the political decision the school board makes. There is no dispute about who should be making that decision.
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Chi Res,
I know there are significant differences between teenagers and adults. I have argued several times on this blog that high school starting times should be moved back because of teenagers unique sleeping patterns. The issue here is if the physiological differences require a different structure for the educational system. I have not seen anyone address that issue.
And in my state at least, it is still 16.
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Teaching Ed,
I am an educator, so I am hardly trying to show that educators are wrong. Dr. Ravitch pointed out that some school districts are controlled by the mayor’s office and others are controlled by local school boards. That is a fact that is indisputable, so I don’t know what you want me to address,
You are also mistaken about my concern with spending on education. I have consistently said we need to spend more on teachers, especially in the STEM areas, in order to compete with the other opportunities these talented people have. I think the salary structure in K-12 education is a remnant of the job segregation suffered by women until recently. We did not have to pay women very much because society did not allow them to take many professional jobs.
But none of this has anything to do with my original point that higher education might be an example of what Dianne was looking to find.
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You are constantly battling with Diane and K-12 educators on this blog and you often seem to be trying to pass yourself off as an expert because you teach economics in “13th grade”. i.e. college.
We’ve heard it all here from you before and you don’t sound like someone with formal training as an educator. You sound like a parent who is pissed off because you don’t like the choices in your school district and you don’t want to pay to move to another district or to send them to private school.
So you have the answer for ALL districts, which is, of course, charter schools and vouchers, and let public education be damned and democracy be “LIMITED”.
Enough with the holier than thou know-it-all $%&@! Time to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.
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Teacher Ed,
You have found me out. I am a fan of the Bill of Rights, so I do want to limit the ability of the majority to impose its will.
I do not think there is one solution for all districts at all. Most of the school districts in my state are too small in population and too large in area to be able to afford any meaningful choice to students, except perhaps via the Internet. Large densely populated areas have much more room for choice, and there I think a better match between students and school buildings is possible.
In any case, what I was posting here is an answer to Dianne’s request to be shown where choice between a variety of public and private educational institutions produced different and better outcomes. I suggested that higher education is one example. Others have argued against this by saying that the age of the student is different in high school than in college, but have not explained why this age difference requires there be no choice in buildings at 17 but choosing buildings at 18 is just fine. Actually to be fair, one poster does lop off half of high school in his comment, and I know from other posts he is in favor of allowing students much more choice after the 10th grade.
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Don’t know how well this addresses your request, but here’s a reference
New Jersey Charters Score Well, Study Finds
By Sean Cavanagh on November 27, 2012 1:51 PM
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/charterschoice/2012/11/new_jersey_charters_score_well_study_finds.html?cmp=ENL-EU-NEWS2
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Ken,
I think you missed this post about the NJ charters: https://dianeravitch.net/2012/12/09/dont-make-mother-crusader-mad/
And you must have missed the many posts by Bruce Baker of Rutgers, who has demonstrated with state data that charters in NJ with high test scores serve very few students with disabilities, very few who are ELL. That makes a big difference.
Diane
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Yes, I had missed those. More importantly, my posting was the result of a “title only” search of my files. That’s why I posted the disclaimer.
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Obama has been since at least 1995 a full on privatizer and corporatizer by his history in Chicago. Chicago is also home to the right wing financial thinking we have. Renaissance 2000, privatization and corporatization of Chicago Public Schools, has been at the forefront of this failed ideology from the beginning. Obama was involved in this. That is why he does not disagree with the right on the financial mess, whistleblowers like Assange, military strikes and education. This is not an accident.
I would like all to just remember this saying a friends grandfather taught him “I hear real good, but I see a whole lot better.”
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What this thread I think highlights is that the question of funding and political governance of the schools is complicated, and broad brush generalizations are likely to founder. The current fad for thinking that privatization is a cure-all has been refuted by reality, but what is most functional is not clear. I think there is also not necessarily one best answer only, either.
W. points out that there are preschools that are private, but funded partially by the state, and regulated by them. That it interesting, as it highlights that public oversight is of great importance, whatever the funding source. What I object to on principle is the idea that public funds should be spent without strong public oversight of some kind. And that is exactly what seems to be happening with the charter school movement. It’s a betrayal of public trust.
The question that TeachingEconomist raised, of why the college system has succeeded with choice is a legitimate and interesting one. TeachingEd, your rudeness is uncalled for, as TeachingEconomist has not been rude. One of the key differences that has not been emphasized is that students and their parents always pay for college. This makes the marketplace for higher education operate in a fundamentally different way from K-12.
K-12 should be fully subsidized by taxes, in order not to penalize children who happen to be born to poorer parents. I think the funding of higher education is breaking down, and state schools likely need to be more subsidized. I think the last two years of high school should be free, with no forced tracking, but with a lot of choice.
Overall, a key problem is that we are way under-taxed in the US, especially the rich, and much more should be going into the education sector overall. The lack of taxation in investment in public goods like education is hurting the future of the country. The money doesn’t do the country better by being in the hands of the wealthy.
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It is certainly true that most college students pay at least a portion of the cost of their college education, but I don’t think that is the key for why choice seems to work in college. Parents and students work hard to find the best match, and in some cases the difference in cost of attendance can be large, but colleges and universities compete surprisingly little on price. Choosing between a set of schools that will all charge about X is the same decision if X is $50,000 or X is $0.
I do agree the issue is primarily one of regulation. Regulation is pervasive in public education because there is no practical alternative to zoned public schools for most parents. If parents have an ability to choose school buildings, it may be appropriate to reduce some of the regulations because the act of choosing can be a substitute for some regulations, though probably some charters in some locations are under regulated.
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WB: I was replying to the post from egbegb that was specifically directed to me..Get over yourself..
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WB: I don’t think you’ve been dealing with this man and his take no prisoner’s notions for as long as a lot of teachers here –many of whom just won’t respond to him anymore.
Look it up. This is the guy who argued endlessly that sweat shops are good for exploited employees who work for American companies that outsource in foreign nations, after many died in a fire and people here were calling for workers’ rights and corporate accountability.
Joining the ranks of the not going to waste my breath on him anymore.
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Just to be clear, what I was arguing is that life in the sweatshops of Bangladesh was better than life in rural Bangladesh. Perhaps WB can add to the discussion as his spouse was an economist with the World Bank.
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+To TeacherEd
Well, even in America “sweat shops” were better than rural life.
Consider WV in late 1800’s when 13 children and 2 parents lived on 10 acres of land in the WV mountains. How were all 15 people going to survive? Ever tried to grow a money crop on the mountains and hillsides of WV? Should they all stay and the 10 acres is divided among the 5 males, then the next generation has 9 children on 2 acres. The generation after that has 11 children on one half acre. You can see where this is going. (a “generation” then was about 20 years.)
Many went north, many went to the coal mines and all who left had a better standard of living. Each could work and save and move west or start a business or get married and have children. (Getting married and having children on minimal wage for a single person was economically unwise, but many did it.) I strongly suspect that is what is going on in China, India and Bangladesh and other intensely poor nations. Open a factory in Malawi and pay employees $1/day and their standard of living rises.
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“Just to be clear, what I was arguing is that life in the sweatshops of Bangladesh was better than life in rural Bangladesh. Perhaps WB can add to the discussion as his spouse was an economist with the World Bank.”
TE, do you have a database or some kind of notecard system with personal information on everyone who posts here? Sounds like you have files on all of us. =-o 😛
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LG
It happens that WB mentioned the book his spouse was writing in an earlier post, and I looked it up. I grew up around World Bank staff and that was my motivation to become an economist, so it stuck with me. WB and I have another small world connection in that he talked about enriched education as a high school program, but I was in an enriched education program in 4-6 grade in WB’s county back in the late 60’s early 70’s.
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Oy. The situation that egbegb describes in the early stages of industrialization seem to me correct. They are very ugly, but so are the situations in rural life, as he or she says. I consider this all off topic and won’t take the bait.
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So when 100 sweat shop workers are burned alive, we should all just be happy they didn’t die on the farm instead of advocating for better working conditions? I don’t think so.
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TeacherEd I didn’t write anything about trying to get better working conditions for folks in poor countries. I all in favor of that. But you are acting as a troll, which is antithetical to constructive dialogue. I won’t respond further.
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WB, Your post was not here when I was writing my reply to egbegb and it had nothing to do with you.
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I meant to write: the lack of taxation *and* investment in public goods…
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Ah, your post is a breath of fresh air here. Thank you. Your organized the points well and clarified the questions to be answered.
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William Berkson.
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Diane-
I thought you might be interested in this column in today’s NYTimes (1/15/13)
FWIW I wrote a blog post on this: http://waynegersen.com/2013/01/16/the-limitations-of-privatization/
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It is an interesting article about an important point, but I think it is more relevant to situations where the government is seeking to privatize some monopoly service that the government provides rather than allowing students a choice of schools to attend.
Clearly some private schools seem to obtain these complicated ends that the best of education. Whenever posters on this blog point to great schools, for example, private schools like Sidwell Friends, Phillips Exeter, and the lab schools are mentioned. As my 15 year old has been known to say, existence implies possibility.
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Thanks for the interesting link. The author has a good point, but I think there is a lot more to be said. I realize from your link that whether a private or public institution works is actually quite a complicated matter, and it is not so simple to say when each will work.
For example some private universities do work very well, but so do many public universities. On the other hand, there seem to be endemic problems with private career academics unscrupulously exploiting students to get (indirectly) public student loan money.
What seems to be really foolish is to assume that either private or public will work, without looking at the external conditions under which the institution works, and how it is set up. I think all of this deserves a lot more study than it has received, at least so far as I know.
But the start is to acknowledge when a private or public institution is not, in fact working, whether it be BP or the belief that private Chart Schools that receive public money will make schools fantastically better.
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“What is most surprising, however, is to find the Obama Education Department so staunchly behind the measures that we ALL agree are destroying the public school systems. NCLB? RTTT? CCSS? What true educator can support that testing to extinction? It baffles me why Obama/Duncan want to eliminate the public school systems…”
This “testing to extinction” IS the privatization of education. The collection and tracking of data, much of which service is provided by the private sector, being used to create an atmosphere of competition among teachers, homogenize the product (education) and determine the best operations for the purpose of directing resources. It all sounds pretty corporate to me. We could argue all day as to whether these values are good or bad, but it’s unfair to blame Obama for everything, especially when he’s giving you what you want. If you are truly opposed to NCLB, RTTT, and CCSS, perhaps you should rethink what the privatization of education really means for the future of education in the US.
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The parking garages in my city have improved tremendously since they were privatized. Courteous personnel in the booths, repairs and painting, new lighting, safety telephones. Most is not all.
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Once again I am going to defend teachingeconomist. He is stating a relativity to living there, say Bangladesh, to Bangladesh not here. Yes, the sweatshops are terrible, but, what did they leave? We, the U.S., are helping to create this mess through the good old Boy Clinton’s NAFTA and WTO in ’94. Look around the world where people do whatever they have to do to stay alive where there is absolutely no law or protection and we here help that.
Many do not want to deal with the money as it freaks them out and yet there is nothing in education without money. So, disagree with what teachingeconomist says if you want, but, still look for the pearls of wisdom. This is what this blog is supposed to be about as to what I see. And that is making you stretch your imagination on what is possible that will help. Without influx of different conceptualizations this cannot happen. Conflicting ideas is good not bad. If you cannot defend your position you do not deserve to take your position out there. If you cannot properly defend your position you do not know it. If you believe teachingeconomist has a bad argument put up a well reasoned counter. That is what this is about. I refine my arguments I use in public and positions here just reading the positions on all the different subjects. You learn a lot you did not know.
For instance. If I did not happen to read a particular comment which referred to a Jaime Aquino power point he would not be now leaving. Who knew? It all came from interest and opening the link to something I did not know before opening it.
Keep writing teachingeconomist. I don’t have a problem with either agreeing or disagreeing with you. As I just might get another golden answer as I did from the other commenter with the Jaime Aquino power point.
One thing the billionaires cannot deal with we know is public knowledge and participation.
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The best disinfectant is sunlight.
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I agree with Harlan’s last statement “the best disinfectant is sunlight.” There is no reason that former public parking garage could not be properly. No government or business can continue without constant accountability. People are crooks and give them the cookie jar open and no one watching it the cookies will disappear. As with schools so go parking garages. No one watches the store the store will be robbed. We have found that the store gets robbed even with us watching the store as no one cares even when they are told and given proof at the highest levels. So, now, as in Chicago, for example, the wonder boys of Chicago sold out and privatized 99 years and blew the money in 1-2 and now the privatizers can rape Chicago for 99 years. Good equation, isn’t it? Instead, why didn’t they run it right, find ways to run it better, catch someone stealing it is prosecution and jail time. Schools, Jails, Downtown administrators, I really don’t care. If you work in a government office and do not want to do a good ethical job get out before we catch you doing something we can prosecute you for. Not, just do whatever.
When you have accountability for the money it goes everywhere else at the same time. It is an attitude. A winner attitude.
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Yes, but who will watch the watchers? E.g. President Obama, eyes high up on ideals, meanwhile the mice are minding the store.
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