Yesterday was my third appearance on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (2003, 2010, 2013). I love being on his show because he is not only funny but a truly kind and decent person. He always comes in for a friendly chat before the interview, to make a personal connection. He is real. I gave him a pair of green laces for his sneakers (they came from a group called “Lace to the Top,” and I explained that I was wearing “red-for-ed.” Last night I met his new dog Dipper. Dipper is a pit bull with only three legs. He is a rescue dog. Unlike the bad reputation that pit bulls have, he is a sweetheart. But it says something about Jon that he would adopt this dog that no one else wanted.
The interview was fun, and I was laughing out loud as I watched the segments that preceded mine. Jon is very upset about the Common Core. A member of his staff has twins; one twin “passed,” the other “failed.” The latter was crushed and cried all day. What a humiliation. For what? But Jon has another source: his mother. At the end of the interview, he leaned over and whispered to me that his mother would let him hear about it for an hour later that night. His mother is a teacher.
Here are the interviews, in two parts:
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I was wondering what the green thing in your hand was.
I enjoyed watching both segments.
I sent them to my principal.
What I just wrote reminds me of a story my mom tells about a thank you note she wrote as a child that an aunt saved and showed her years later. This is good teacher humor. . .the endearing steps in learning that make teaching a joy.
She wrote:
Dear Aunt Evelyn:
Thank you for the fancy pants you sent in the mail. We got two chicks for Easter. I wore them to church on Sunday.
Love,
Martha
—————————–
I enjoyed the segments of the show, not the green laces. And I did not send green laces to my principal, but rather the links to the segments of the show (in case anyone was wondering).
Love the letter. TY for sharing it, Joanna. What fun I had reading and rereading the letter.
Diane, every school board member and citizen would find great value in your book and this interview. My husband thinks you are awesome.
I am sure there are those who are feeling uncomfortable right now, after all their mantra has been exposed as a big fat lie — a lie based on false information and blaming teachers. This is so obvious and yet “the lie” remains a good marketing/propaganda strategy. Sure wish Bracey was alive.
Hmmm…the profiteers have turned poverty into their profits?
I suspect that your mother is close in age to me (63). I loved the story. I had fancy pants, too! I probably wore them to church as well. Sadly, I never had any chicks. 😦
I loved the interview, Diane, but I didn’t wear fancy pants or red shoe laces.
I believe it is a pair of green laces from a group called Lace to the Top. Here’s the description from their Facebook page:
“The reason for this page is simple. We are here because we see something wrong in education and screaming “Help!” has not worked. The media has not helped at all and elected officials have not helped enough. We need to do something even more powerful; unite.
Green laces are a loud and impossible to ignore symbol of good people protecting their kids. That’s it. We were looking for a voice to share this message and we found it in Dr. Joseph Rella. The message he has set forth is simple. Stop it. Fix it. Or scrap it. The more people that wear green laces as a symbol of love for kids and rejection of abusive tests, the more likely people with the power to make change will listen.
I wear green laces every day. When someone asks me why, my reply is simple; “Because I love my kids. They mean more to me than a score.”
I encourage you all to take a similar stance. Engaging in debate will divert us from the goal and provide the opportunity for the message to be diluted or destroyed”.
You were wonderful! He is wonderful! Actually, he is the best news person out there, really.
Wikipedia says Jon Stewart is the parent of two school-aged children. Do they go to public schools?
I was wondering that too.
In the second video, Diane states:
“The Common Core is an answer to a problem that we don’t have.”
Refreshing to hear. Reform manufactures problems in order to “solve” teaching right out of being a profession.
That one stood out to me too.
I loved that. And this quote: “We are rewarding kids who can pick the right box, and what we need for the 21st Century is the kids who think outside the box.”
Yep, I just tweeted that one. Loved it!
Second interview:
Tried to embed.
Once again, Diane achieved a communication success. She articulates the issues that face American education with such candor and passion that you can leave the interview and recount the salient points easily. As a local school board member, I need her guidance and avail myself of her comments whenever possible. Brava! Diane!
AWESOME INTERVIEW!!!
Such wisdom! Such keen intelligence! Such moral authority! Such brilliant, concise, clear articulation of the key issues!
Diane Ravitch is clearly our leading public intellectual AND the conscience of our nation.
Just when I think that my admiration for this woman couldn’t possibly grow, I hear this.
Blown away here, yet again.
Thank you, Dr. Ravitch. Thank you.
I loved both segments of the interview. I am more determined to get Dr. Ravitch to AZ to wake people up here. I think many feel the same, but we have no movement here as in other states. Jon Stewart is great. I have something in common with him. My son and I adopted a boxer/pit bull mix from Animal Humane Society after our boxer, Max, died. She is turning out to be so sweet. By the way, I shared the Daily Show with Diane with my friends on Facebook and with a teacher group I am in. Please do the same. More people need to see this.
I feel the same about Tennessee. I worry things will have to get worse before they get better….before the public will be outraged enough to speak up.
Dottie, I agree about getting her to our state. I live in Flagstaff. Lets organize and get it done! Diane, I love you, ya know, in a Brother Sister kind of way. Join Arizona Bad Ass Teachers organization on Facebook and lets fight. I too am a dog rescuer.
A Great interview! The audience seemed very supportive and in agreement with the discussion.
Must read Holly.. ma
Jon Stewart is fantastic in so many ways, and so are you! I’m thrilled he had you on again 🙂
Stunning! Great message sent out to a huge national audience. Thank you Diane and Jon.
Congratulations Diane on a great interview. I enjoy Jon Stewart’s way of asking questions and getting to so many points. I wil be interested to see how the edited version comes out as we always see The Daily Show a day late.
Excellent appearance on the Daily Show! Very strong points made overall, very consistent message. Here’s my good, bad, and ugly review:
The Good: Loved your discussion on the dangers of consumer mentality regarding education… “public education is a public responsibility”… thought your example of how the destruction of civic obligation could manifest itself practically –“the next time a bond is up, they’ll say ‘well I don’t have a child in school'”… brilliant! Also loved your discussion of why teachers shouldn’t be evaluated on student test scores, using autistic and ELL students as examples of students who wouldn’t test high… great example which lay people who elect school boards and state legislators can understand.
The Bad #1: On two different occasions when Jon Stewart asked how you would reform the current system, if the system was too rigid, if unions played a role, etc. you focused on repealing the national standards movement, high stakes testing, eliminating teacher evaluations based on student scores, etc. but were a bit thin on substantive systemic or pedagogical reform ideas. I realize that you only have so much time on a short interview like The Daily Show or The Colbert Report, but would have liked to hear more.
The Bad #2: When asked who was doing it right, you cited Vermont. You mentioned they’re not testing, focused on children, have high graduation rates. Ironically you picked the state that least represents demographically (by race and class) why the charter school / school choice movement started. Vermont is 95% white, 1% Black, 1% Asian, and 1% Hispanic. It looks more like Finland than the rest of the U.S. where real income inequality, education inequality, etc. exists. Jon’s question was a great opportunity to highlight one of two things — (1) either an impoverished public school or district that has initiated unique systemic and pedagogical reforms to turn a failing school into a high performing school despite the poverty, and as such could be a blueprint for other impoverished schools; or (2) a high performing charter that utilizes a combination of public & private funds to overwhelmingly outspend an impoverished neighborhood public school, and in doing so can offer the reduced class sizes, art & music, P.E., nurses/psychologists/guidance counselors, foreign language, etc. While it might seem odd to use a charter to make your case, in essence what you would be proving is that sustained funding makes a difference by highlighting what the extra xxx thousand dollars per pupil provides, and linking that to the high performance of the charter. It seems to me that too often you and Geoffrey Canada, Dave Levin, Mike Feinberg, Michael Milkie, Eva Moskowitz, and others are actually saying the same thing from different perspectives (money matters!), but the messages usually don’t come across as reinforcing but rather contradicting.
The Ugly: You took a pretty good dig at Congress — “I don’t think Congress should mandate any testing, I think it’s out of the realm of their knowledge. I mean you know how many things they legislate about where they know nothing, they know nothing about school reform, so Congress should get out of it.” I couldn’t agree with you more, and yet I found this the most cringe-worthy part of the interview. In 1991, you were the assistant secretary of education under Bush, you were an outspoken critic of progressive pedagogical theories, you urged national standards and parental choice/vouchers/charter schools/market based solutions. Your voice was critical in Congress getting deeper involved in public education. I have no problem with you reviewing history, reviewing statistics and data, and changing your position — that’s laudable. But to take a dig at Congress’s role without acknowledging in that same statement that you helped create that role seems disingenuous, hypocritical, and lacks humility.
Overall I like the interview, I thought you came across very well and put out a consistent message for the traditional/pedagogical movement. I agree with many of your points, and was glad to see you eloquently advocate for many areas that I believe will help strengthen public education in the long run. Great job!
Al, this was not a legal deposition. It was an interview. Dr. Ravitch had a few minutes in which to make her major points, which are critical for the country to understand. I am very pleased that she stuck to those.
On your second major criticism: Dr. Ravitch has been VERY public about her informed change of heart and mind about the current reforms. That’s news to no one. She has every right to criticize Congress for not paying attention to the travesty that has been No Child Left Behind. People can’t simply enact legislation and then walk away and not examine its consequences. Dr. Ravitch did that. Her reversal on these issues was incredibly courageous and showed an enormous amount of integrity. She showed herself not to be an ideologue but one who is driven by the evidence. We need more such, more folks like Dr. Ravitch, who, like Socrates in Plato’s Phaedrus, are not afraid to admit when they were wrong. Hers is the proper scientific and ethical spirit, and she deserves honor, not criticism, for her breathtaking honesty. And, BTW, her change of heart and mind was the whole subject of the previous interview that she did with Jon Stewart.
Well said. I was just about to speak up for Dr. Ravitch on these very points, but I couldn’t say it any better than you did!
Robert D. Shepherd and Bookworm 23: thank you.
Being in a media forum is a foreign and unsettling experience for the vast majority. You are under the gun yet to be effective must be both focused like a laser on the question at hand while simultaneously thinking ahead to what may be coming up. Plus appear both relaxed and alert at the same time.
In general, the key is to stick to issues and not get involved in personalities. That includes avoiding self-promotion. Not easy to avoid completely when there is no RESET button.
Even under adverse conditions—e.g., two or three to one with the moderator taking the side of the rheephormistas—Diane goes a good job. Given the chance to respond to an intelligent interviewer who is actually interested in what she thinks, she does even better.
I look forward to February 6.
🙂
Yes, Vermont is a very white state as well as a very small state. It is not, however, a state without a good deal of poverty, both urban and rural. Perhaps the income disparity is less, but that is more likely because there is little enterprise that generates great wealth. There are some very wealthy people in the state most of whom are probably imports from “down country,” not natives. (Being considered native takes several generations!)
There is a great old joke told about a fellow from New York who moves to New Hampshire. One day, he is talking to a neighbor and says, “Look, I know that people will never think of me as a New Hampshireman. But my kids were born here.” The neighbor says, “Well, let me ask you this: If your cat had kittens in the oven, would you call the biscuits?” I lived in New Hampshire myself for a time. The old joke rings true.
I guess my question would be if Jon Stewart really gets the Charter movement? His last talking about charters and how he knows some really good people in them. . . expect he may have been pleasing a few people on his staff etc., but does he didn’t seem to get their place in the privatization and money making piece of this movement.
And Alharris, I live in Douglas County, a very affluent county in Colorado and yet we have been hit hard with the privatization movement and a proliferation of charters all in the name of parent choosing what is best for their child. We live in a very strong conservative area.
Jon is talking from a very specific class situation, alas. The intelligentsia is easy to sway if you have jobs to hand out, and the corporate reformers have done that with a vengeance in New York City. Jon says he “knows really good people” in the charter sector, and so do I.
The influential citizens who owe allegiance to the Bloomberg education policy can thank him for thousands of carefully dispensed patronage positions for perfectly nice friends and relatives.
For instance, somebody’s sweet niece maybe got a great job in New York City, without having to go through any nonsense about union teachers being laid off and passed over to make room for her, and she’s already an acting principal at a charter school in Ohio. Her mommy was maybe a democratic representative at the time.
Some more thinking. . . I wonder if and when we do start to talk about the harm corporate pedagogy is doing on all children.
Even though poverty is huge and needs to be addressed, how much better we could address the needs etc. if we didn’t have to follow corporate pedagogy. And the community itself was more empowered to educate verses top down have to do it this way mentality.
I just finished reading “Developing Life Long Readers” by Margaret Mooney. She’s brilliant and her research makes sense. Dewey would be proud, I think. And I’m guessing Finland uses her work. .
But here is a quote from her book.
“Reading is no longer seen as only a set of skills needed to decode the printed word, but as receiving and giving messages through creating one’s own texts as well as recreating and extending one’s horizons from messages recorded by others.” Pg 1
My daughter is getting skilled and decoded to death to meet data points and assessments. Problem is the lack of connection. Reading instruction has become fragmented and that doesn’t work. When do we start talking about issues like this. Not just a creativity issue but a better approach to instruction on the essentials.
Another quote of hers that is not happening today.
“A reader does not read in order to then get meaning; a reader brings meaning to and gains meaning whilst reading. In other words, comprehension is part of the act of reading and not an exercise that follows.” Pg 2
I wonder if and when we do start to talk about the harm corporate pedagogy is doing on all children.
Now. We must start talking about this now. The harm is considerable. I see it every day in the CCSS-based lessons being produced by the major publishing houses.
There are some teachers around the country who are doing GREAT CCSS-inspired work because they are driven not by the bullet list of standards but, rather, by their understanding of the quite good advice given in the Publishers’ Criteria document that accompanied those standards. But their excellent work is being drowned in a flood of corporate curricula and pedagogy and by mandated, scripted lessons that turn teachers into robots: “Pull my string to begin the lesson on standard CCSS.ELA.RI.7.2a.”
A great interview! As a member of Lace To The Top. I was thrilled to see your green bracelet in your hand!!! Thank you Diane Ravitch, was speaking out on behalf of ALL children!! WE WILL PREVAIL
Jennie,
What is Lace to the Top?
Thanks in advance,
Duane
Jon Stewart (and Stephen Colbert) are perhaps the toughest interviewers out there. I will note that sometimes people make the mistake of thinking that they are “on your side” in an argument and forget that they will both ask very tough, pointed questions and not let go. So bravo, you did a really great job.
I think the question of “who are the role models” is a really excellent one, and maybe one that could be answered better. In particular, I think that people who are thinking that test scores are important won’t hear that they’re not unless you can give them other ways to evaluate success.
I loved the way you started out making your case about the current generation of American kids being the best and brightest, and about the high poverty we have among American kids. That was, I thought, extremely effective.
Diane you are a master at getting the most important points out in the shortest amount of time. Your interview was perfect, the green laces sent a powerful message that the masses are gathering and we will not allow the barbarians to destroy our nation’s most important asset. John Stewart is another national hero who dares to say what many of us believe.
The battle rages on and we will prevail.
Great interview. Wished you had been more specific about PAR as a peer program. He did ask for “specific places” where alternative evals were taking place. Were the places you mentioned using PAR or something like it because the only place I know is Montgomery County????
Diane, I just watched both parts. Clearly, this is a much friendlier venue than many I’ve seen, and Mr. Stewart definitely gave you a good opportunity to speak, make key points without having to pull punches or shout over a hostile interviewer, and you did a marvelous job with the time.
However, I was a little surprised that Stewart seemed to want to push on unions and on “there are some good people working in charters.” The first is pretty standard fare, and I think you handled that extremely well. The second was a last second thing. So what can you really say? That all people affiliated with charters are scum? Of course they aren’t. I worked in and with a few charters. One of the ones I taught for was quite good (and not in any way connected with for-profit institutions or companies). Two I coached math for were similarly decent and again, not connected to for-profits in any way). On the other hand, I had the misfortune to teach for one run by the notorious White Hat Mgmt. of Akron, OH, and everything I saw there (except for the majority of the staff itself) would support the idea that charters are a parasitic blight. And I had experience coaching in the public schools of that same district. I’m not suggesting that they were performing miracles, but then the charters didn’t have to contend with all the same issues the public schools face, including having the charters dump kids on those public schools as soon as “Count Day” is over and the state money for each student has been secured.
Is there corruption in public education? We know there is. But there is also public oversight, elected officials, state regulators and inspectors, etc. Charters have been able to fly under the radar, game the system so that they can play by different rules, and thus get away with murder in far too many instances.
I recall the original idea of charter schools as touted by the late Albert Shanker. They were supposed to operate within the public school system, providing places for experiment that could potentially be brought into other places in the larger system. That was a great idea, one I could readily support. But we are in general a very far cry from that today. For the vast majority of charters I’ve seen directly or looked into, it’s just a bunch of tiny variations on a couple of themes, providing a very narrow style of education to (mostly) inner city poor kids of color. Furthermore, teachers are treated like cattle. A careful look at what is expected of them should remind anyone knowledgeable about the history of US education of a return to the days when teaching was a marginal profession for spinsters who were placed under very narrow strictures as to having any sort of personal life. The nature of the job, the hours, the tiny salary, and actual rules about staying single, and of course not having children.
I could go on to speak of how parents are treated, about misuse of funds, and many other lovely tales, but the point should be clear.
It was interesting that he made his charter comment at the end of the interview.
MPG, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.
I agree, Concernedmom, and he did it in a way that made it hard to respond too. That’s what I was concerned about. Why did he do that?
Diane, Jon’s questions set you up to counter each false frame out there with clear, crisp and relentless reasoning. Very cathartic to watch. Thanks to you both. 🙂
Love, love, LOVED this! reposted on my FB page. I opted out of MAP for my Kindergartener and the principal had the nerve to tell me and I quote “I am sorry that you have decided not to let (my childs name) have opportunity to show her knowledge.” I just wanted to say to her, lady my child shows me her knowledge every single day. She shows it to her teacher, whose provided me with a list of first grade sight words because she has the K sight words down cold and I trust that she’s in good hand so WHY DON’T YOU?!!! Argh….I am really upset about this.
Buffalo Public Schools were part of an integration program in the 70s through 90s. The Charter movement has resulted in numerous all black schools or predominately white schools, upending the push for diversity. The charter schools which cater to the poor have similar results to the other inner city (public) schools. The mainly white schools do much better on the assessments.
It makes you question the purpose of the Charter. Another good idea at first glance, but incorrectly implemented with questionable results.
I went back and forth in my reactions.
I’m disappointed that Murdoch and Klein didn’t come up. That will sell more books than the important (but pious) argument for shared public responsibility and oversight of public schools. Reign of Error is a call to urgent action, and a gutsy new confrontation with the 1%, and none of that came up.
I was appalled, but not surprised, that Jon attacked unions, because that’s the narrative I hear from upper-middle-class “progressives”, who have no job prospects for their offspring than through their connections to corporate reform. That’s how they soothe their slightly troubled scruples. Maybe ducking the question was the best strategy, but I was itching for Diane to say unions are not a problem.
I think Jon was playing devil’s advocate and was hoping Diane would have a good response. For instance, PAR is a union/district program that doesn’t rely on test scores. Also when answering questions about unions, it’s important to state that it’s the unions who fight for small class sizes and better environmental protections. People think it’s only about salaries and benefits. It’s also about health and safety. Chicago fought for bringing back the Arts.
I agree with you, Schoolgal. He was largely voicing the Bloomberg narrative, so Diane could answer it.
Great interview. Watching the first part I began to feel that Diane just gives canned answers to questions. I have heard the same thing from her over and over. Watching the second part was much better. She seemed relaxed and more personal with the answers. I am currently reading the book and my wife is going to see her in Princeton on Monday 11/4. I get stuck on her her constant statement that poverty is the reason for bad performance in schools. Yes poverty is terrible and needs to be addressed but attitude is very important also. There are poor children who do well because they are pushed and assisted by parents. There is another book by Paul Tough called “How Children Succeed” that talks about qualities of character. Diane needs to address how the media and business has painted a poor picture of education and how the environment and peer pressure has stopped students from succeeding in schools.
Bill,
When given resources, the community in poverty has a better chance of improving their circumstances than any outside forced mandates.
It’s time to allow communities to work together to address all issues including learning.
Reblogged this on 21st Century Theater and commented:
Hi Diane,
I was glad to see you on the Daily show again to promote your book and advocate for public education. While Jon Stewart may be a great guy, I get more than a little impatient when he displays his (willful?) ignorance of the corporate takeover of our most cherished institutions. As we know, corporate led privatization or the neoliberal agenda
is decimating the middle-class, breaking unions, and further impoverishing poor people – especially poor people of color. Aside from his naivete (like becoming a booster for McCain until it was brutally obvious he was a pandering, bloodthirsty, right-wing crazy) he seems to have a blind spot when it comes to the neoliberal agenda implemented by corporations and the politicians they buy.
When Stewart attempts to be even-handed, somehow it is always in favor or our ruling corporate elite. It’s like saying,”Sure little red riding hood was eaten by the wolf, but let’s look at both sides, I mean there are some young girls out there that are kind of slutty – and not all wolves kill little girls.” It looks like a replay of his Scahill interview
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-april-19-2007/jeremy-scahill
where he didn’t see a problem with our military being privatized and filled with mercenaries. The next day he apologized for being totally ignorant, but essentially that was the end of it, and for daily show listeners, that story just disappeared:
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/4/daily_show_host_jon_stewart_apologizes
Unfortunately, the DN! video no longer seems to be available, but the full transcript is there. For the amount of time Stewart has spent reading and interviewing politicians he remains dangerously ignorant and out of his depth much of the time. I’m glad he has given you airtime, but his ignorance always seems to end-up in a kind of tacit support for neoliberal policies – and at the very least, doesn’t help the debate, especially, when so many americans “get their news” from Stewart.
I understand that he sees himself as a moderate and willing to listen to “both sides,” but, for the most part, Jon’s guests rarely represent what could be called, “what’s left of the left.” Scahill and a few others are exceptions – and Scahill didn’t get a fair hearing. Our political spectrum has shifted, and the label of moderate now means moderately right-wing. At this point in our history, just being “a good guy” doesn’t cut it. The latest phase of the class war has been waged by the right for almost forty years now. They won – and they’re still fighting. It is clear they want to create a kind of feudalism – and it’s time for us to fight back (as I think you are advocating) and time to help educate people about what could be called corporate led neoliberalism. I hope you can increasingly incorporate that bigger picture into your argument. Without making these connections, we could win the battle and lose the (class) war.
Thanks for all you do,
~ 21st Century Poet
@21st_C_Poet
“For the amount of time (Fill In)has spent reading and interviewing politicians (Fill In) remains dangerously ignorant and out of (Fill In) depth much of the time.”
Dangerously ignorant and out of depth IS the charade of
“Club Members” who pick at the cogs of a “System”, but
never challenge the validity of the “System”.
Those in the same boat, won’t bore a hole in it…
Thank you to Jon Stewart and to Diane Ravitch. Those of us who are fighting to save public education are at this pretty much 24/7! There’s are a number of groups one can join. Two Facebook groups that unite people across the political spectrum to fight for our kids are Lace to the Top and BadAss Teachers’ Association. A Facebook search will bring you to both. Please join a combined cadre of over 40,000 activists working to take public education back! The winning team will win because there is one agenda: Children and their ability to have access to a quality public education, no matter their zip code.
God bless you Ms. Ravitch and Mr. Stewart. Thank you for showing us that there still are decent, brave, intelligent people among us. Keep exposing the profiteers and exposing their lies. It’s building courage among our communities. Even though we are BOMBARDED with mistruths every day and are so easily swayed, you are helping people wake up to reality.
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”
– George Orwell
“In our age there is no such thing as ‘keeping out of politics.’ All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.”
– George Orwell