An anonymous tipster called the superintendent of Broward County schools in Florida and told him that a trans girl (born male) was playing on the Monarch High School girls’ volleyball team. The superintendent suspended the principal and assistant principal of the high school, as well as the student’s mother (who worked in information technology), and members of the athletic staff—five in all.
The student has identified as female since second grade. As punishment for allowing her to play on the girls’ volleyball team, in defiance of state law, the Florida High School Athletic Association fined the school $16,500, ordered the principal and athletic director to attend rules seminars and placed the high school on probation for 11 months; further violations could lead to increased punishments. In addition, the association barred the girl from participating in boys sports for 11 months. It’s easy to predict that she will not play on the boys’ team.
The students at Monarch High School have walked out twice to protest the loss of their principal, who was well-liked and accessible.
What a frenzy because one student played on the girls’ volleyball team and was not an unusually strong player. Governor DeSantis and Commissioner Diaz succeeded in humiliating this one child. What brave men they are!
The following story by Brittany Walkman appeared in The Miami Herald.
When Daisy was 10, she stood in front of a microphone in a green dress, her long hair pulled back in a purple headband.
“Living in Broward County has given me the sense of safety,” she said to the Broward County School Board members, who were honoring LGBTQ History Month, “knowing that the school board has my back.”
Daisy, a transgender girl, seemed to be growing up in an era of unprecedented acceptance.
That was 2017, two years before Gov. Ron DeSantis would take office. In a short time, she crossed a cultural chasm.
Schools in Florida — and even Broward, the most Democrat-leaning county in the state — have been remodeled under DeSantis and the Republican-led Legislature.
In the years Daisy aged into her teens, taking estrogen to affirm her identity as a girl, Florida’s schools became a cultural battleground, with legislative spears lobbed at the books students read, the classes they take, the history they learn, the topics they discuss in classrooms, the bathrooms students like Daisy use, the gender-affirming healthcare they receive, and the team sports they compete in.
Though transgender people are a small fraction of the population – an estimated 0.8 percent, according to the U.S. Census, and 2.3 percent of Broward’s student body — they’re an outsized target, much to the disappointment of LGBTQ advocates.
“These attacks have not come from real issues,” said Nic Zantop, deputy director of Transinclusive Group, a South Florida service and advocacy organization. “These are manufactured issues.”
Daisy’s presence the past two years on a girls’ volleyball team at Monarch High School in Coconut Creek now threatens the jobs of her mother, information management systems employee Jessica Norton; and four others at her school, including Principal James Cecil.
They’re under investigation by the school district for potentially violating a state law prohibiting a person born with male anatomy from playing on female sports teams.
When Daisy’s family sued Florida over the law two years ago, it drew little attention — in stark contrast to last week’s events, when her plight exploded across national headlines.
Even the Democrats on the Broward school board — known for embracing LGBTQ causes — remained silent about her last week. Only her classmates offered support, staging two days of walkouts.
“It was very heartwarming to see that the generation that follows us understands acceptance, inclusiveness and diversity,” said Michael Rajner, a longtime LGBTQ activist who serves as chair of the Broward County Human Rights Board. “I can’t tell you how proud these students make me.”
Daisy’s family declined to be interviewed for this story.
Jessica Norton identified herself publicly on Monday as the athlete’s mother. The Miami Herald is using a pseudonym for the student to protect her identity.
‘I’M A GIRL’
When she learned to talk, Daisy gave voice to it. “Mommy, I’m a girl.”
The Nortons weren’t sure what to think, Jennifer Norton recounted in a social media post in 2017, when she was honored with a diversity award.
“What started out as us thinking we had a gay son turned into something much more,” Norton wrote.
When it came time to find a pre-school, Norton said “we chose the school that made the least comments about the pink sparkly flip flops that I let her wear.”
Daisy adopted a feminine name, and started using it in second grade. That year, she played soccer on the girls’ team.
A doctor diagnosed her with gender dysphoria, an internal dissonance between one’s biological sex and gender identity.
Daisy played girls’ sports for years, the lawsuit says, and her social life revolved around it: basketball, softball, soccer and — fatefully — high school volleyball.
Her family — parents Jessica and Gary, a brother and a sister — embraced her as a girl.
In one family photo posted on social media, her older sister wears a shirt that proclaims, “My sister has a penis. Get over it.”
Another shows family members celebrating Pride Month at Walt Disney World, wearing clothing with rainbows. Norton added the hashtags #ProudMom #ProudDad #TransIsBeautiful.
Norton joined the PTA to make sure her daughter wasn’t bullied. She was looking forward to Monarch High.
“I recently was hired at the high school she will eventually attend and will be working with the teachers and staff to bring awareness to the school about transgender students and their rights,” she wrote when she was honored as a transgender advocate.
Daisy registered at school as a girl, with a birth certificate to prove it. (Florida allows birth certificates to be amended.) She used the girls’ restrooms, girls’ locker and changing rooms, all without incident, court filings say.
She’d avoided male puberty by taking testosterone blockers starting at age 11 — a gender affirming care that included later putting her on estrogen, the female hormone, for life, her parents’ lawsuit said in court pleadings.
She delighted in dressing up each Halloween in elaborate Katy Perry outfits, and finally came face to face with the pop star at a concert one year.
“She is not a boy,” her lawyers wrote.
IN BLACK AND WHITE
Daisy might have avoided the turmoil that upended her life if Broward school leaders had paid attention to what she was telling them in court.
Her family sued the school district, governor and state Board of Education, among others, in the summer of 2021, when she was still in middle school.
They knew the law was about to take effect, and said Daisy planned to play soccer on the girls’ team in middle school. She also dreamed of playing high school volleyball, her lawyers wrote in lawsuit pleadings.
They thought the new law violated her civil rights. In March of this year, when Daisy was a freshman, her lawyers put it clearly: “Throughout this litigation, Plaintiff has played on a girls’ team with the threat of enforcement hanging over her head, day in and day out.”
Nevertheless, Daisy’s participation in several years of girls’ sports passed without consequence.
Until last week.
Just after a federal judge dismissed the Norton lawsuit — leaving open the possibility for it to be amended — someone tipped off Broward schools Superintendent Peter Licata on Nov. 20 that Daisy had broken the state law. Licata has not identified the tipster.
The state Department of Education said it ordered the district to “take immediate action.”
Florida Sen. Rosalind Osgood, a Democrat who sat on the Broward school board, blamed the vagueness of the state’s Fairness in Women’s Sports Act for what happened at Monarch.
“Many education laws are made that are not executable and create implementation disasters,” she said.
Zantop said because the laws are nuanced, “in many places, we’ve seen maybe even over-compliance, going beyond what laws require. … I would like to see all our school officials pushing back, sticking up for their students.”
Broward schools spokesman John Sullivan said Licata, selected for the job in July, was unaware of the lawsuit, and it had no bearing on his actions. He hadn’t known Daisy had played girls’ volleyball there until he was notified in November, Sullivan said.
Others at the school district — Norton, for example — did know. The school district’s investigation, Sullivan said, will uncover “who knew what, when.”
COMPLICATED ISSUE
In the court of public opinion, the quandary of transgender athletes transcends political leanings.
A majority of Americans believe athletes should be required to play on the team that corresponds to their birth gender, according to recent polls by the Pew Research Center and Gallup,
The federal government’s approach, under Democratic President Joe Biden, would disallow one-size-fits-all bans in public schools like Florida’s.
But it would allow male-to-female transgender youth like Daisy to be prohibited from playing on girls’ teams in some circumstances, particularly competitive high school or college teams.
Schools would be required to minimize harm to the student. The proposal is still being studied. Florida opposes it.
Nearly half the states in America filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the Norton lawsuit, on the Florida Board of Education’s side.
So did a Christian group and a sports advocate who opposes transgender female participation. The Christian Family Coalition, a non profit that said it lobbied heavily for passage of Florida’s law, argued that “persons born biologically as males have intrinsic and irreversible biological and physical advantages over persons born biologically as females in terms of skeletal mass, muscle mass, and lung capacity.”
Florida education officials argued that even if the transgender athlete in question isn’t a very good player, the fact that a biological female is potentially displaced from a team is enough to warrant the law.
While some sports bodies have adopted compromises like allowing an athlete to play if testosterone levels are sufficiently reduced, Florida enacted a broad ban that doesn’t take into consideration whether the person experienced male puberty.
Legislators rejected a bill that would have adopted testosterone-based criteria like that of the International Olympic Committee.
Florida’s law applies to public middle and high schools, colleges and universities.
Though he ruled against the Norton family, U.S. District Judge Roy K. Altman acknowledged that Florida’s broad ban might be unfair to Daisy.
Altman, an appointee of former President Trump, said he tried his best to “honor” her pronouns in his rulings, and “acknowledge[d] that the statute creates a difficult (and perhaps unfair) situation for D.N., who identifies as a girl in all respects and who may be prohibited from playing on the teams of her choice.”
He said she could try out for a boy’s team, or play co-ed sports. He went on, in his Nov. 6 decision dismissing the case: “Our job isn’t to decide whether a law is good or bad, smart or silly, fair or unfair. We don’t even get to say whether we like the law—whether, in short, we would’ve voted for it if we had been in the legislature. Our job is to apply the law as it’s been expressed through the will of a democratically-elected legislature and the signature of a democratically-elected governor— unless (of course) the law violates some more fundamental (call it constitutional) law.”
And on that note, Judge Altman said, it doesn’t. The family has until Jan. 11 to amend its lawsuit.
NOT A ‘MISTAKE’
A fifth grade transgender girl followed Daisy to the microphone that day in 2017. She got the giggles and had to compose herself before praising her school and the district for making sure she wasn’t seen as “a mistake.”
She said her school read “I Am Jazz,” by transgender girl Jazz Jennings, a former student in Broward schools, a book that was pulled from the shelves in seven Florida counties in the last two years.
It is one of the most commonly banned transgender-themed books in America’s schools, according to PEN, a non profit authors’ advocacy group.
Florida now leads the nation in banning books at school, according to PEN. Nearly a third of the books banned nationwide last school year had characters with LGBTQ identities, according to PEN, and 6 percent had a transgender character.
Daisy said she’d had the support of her teachers when she’d transitioned. “It was the best time of my life,” she said in the televised meeting, flanked by her parents. “I got to be who I was born to be. … I know I’m one of the lucky ones.”
Though she was open about her trans status back then, her lawyers argued in recent court filings that she feared being outed in high school, where it wasn’t commonly known.
Her coach, Alex Burgess, said she didn’t stand out physically. He had no idea she was ever considered a boy.
“It’s not like she was some superstar athlete, to that extent. She was just one of my players,” he said Monday. “She was just sweet and innocent. It was just, I don’t know, it’s hard to explain, but I just can only imagine what she’s feeling.”
She’d feared being outed by a person suing under the new state law, her lawyers wrote in filings. Instead, it appeared to be the school district’s launching of an investigation — and transferring her mother and four others to off-campus jobs — that inadvertently exposed her gender history.
On Nov. 28, the day the news broke, Daisy’s mom changed her Facebook profile photo to a meme: “Life. What a f***ing nightmare.”
Daisy hasn’t returned to school since.
Staff writer Jimena Tavel contributed to this report.
Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article282762388.html#storylink=cpy

Such a sad and awful story. Thanks so much for sharing this nationally, Diane. Hope you have a wonderful holiday.
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The New Yorker has a long look at who gets to play on which team. Gender and sexual identity are complex and nuanced. Of course, no one seeking to outrage finds that complexity advances their cause.
A week later, the blood tests came back. In a one-room office in downtown Mexico City, a grandmotherly gynecologist who called me “hija” and my breasts “mamas” explained that I had a condition called hyperandrogenism: an excess of the sex hormones associated with men, including testosterone, and very likely the cause of the past decade of acne. My estrogen levels were considerably lower than those of most premenopausal women; they were typical of prepubescent children of either sex. My free-testosterone levels—one of three forms of the hormone—were well above the usual female range. In most women my age, the concentration of androstenedione, a precursor to testosterone, is between thirty and two hundred and eighty-five nanograms per decilitre. Mine was six hundred and twenty. It was all the weirder, the doctor said, because for years I had been on hormonal birth control, which tends to suppress androgen levels.
Before my blood tests, on the rare occasions when I considered my stance on the issue, I had viewed myself as a member of the putative victim group—sports-playing cis women who really like to win—even as I was not particularly afraid that increased gender diversity would destroy women’s sports as we know them. (Anyone who thinks that legions of men will declare themselves women only to compete in an easier division is, I think, missing something crucial about the nature of masculine pride.) After the blood tests, I was still sports-playing, still cisgender, and still tediously competitive. But now, in a sporting world that increasingly divided the sexes based on hormone levels, I was less sure about who was the threatened and who was the threat.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/who-gets-to-play-in-womens-leagues
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I read that essay. It’s very interesting and makes the point that there is a large element of gender fluidity. I agree that it’s absurd to believe that boys declare themselves trans so they can compete on girls’ teams or have the chance to see inside the girls’ bathrooms. The ridicule and ostracism attached to being trans are enough to stigmatize anyone.
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Any day now, M4L will be campaigning to ban the woke New Yorker from campuses and libraries.
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Conservatives use the transgender in sports issue to stir their base by logical proximity: anyone can see the person with more testosterone in their system having an unfair advantage so all these “other” people must be evil.
This is, of course, their attempt to rub some ligit of the matter. They did the same thing back in the McCarthy era with communism. The fact that the Soviets want our demise means Truman wants our demise.
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Roy,
I would like to scream it from the rooftops: the GOP seeks out culture war issues as a smokescreen for their real agenda: cutting Social Security and Medicare. Eliminating popular safety net programs. Eliminating environmental laws. Better to keep people focused on race, gender, religion. The menace of a handful of trans kids.
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The culture wars are like a magician’s sleight of hands. Cultural outrage riles up their attack zombies, and they distract us from the real issues like dismantling social safety nets and public schools.
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I agree with you, FLERP!, that the fact that this child identified as the other gender essentially her entire life (and this wasn’t some “teen being influenced by society” issue) supports the view that this issue has been politicized by right wing people who don’t care one iota about the these kids, but are invoking them for political mileage. Similar to the anti-abortion people who are fine with a baby not having food or health care once they are born.
The well-being of other people’s children is something Republicans only care about if it gives them political mileage or their own child’s welfare is at stake.
I could come up with some anecdote of a teen feeling “pressured” to get a nose job or a male teen feeling “pressured” to have the fat on his breasts surgically removed. But no one is pretending that the interests of all children must be served by banning children under 18 from ALL medication plastic surgery. We give children ADD medication and other medication despite a few instances where some kid was harmed.
I know parents whose kids have identified as the other gender essentially their entire lives. I certainly trust those parents over the right wing Republicans who would say that it’s better their child dies – or be drugged up with anti-depressants or other psychotropic drugs or institutionalized – than to take puberty blockers.
It’s complicated, and the Republicans have looked for political mileage over the best interests of the child.
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I don’t understand your comment.
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FLERP,
What part of her comment do you not understand?
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The part where she says she agrees with me and then writes several paragraphs about stuff I never mentioned. Makes no sense.
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I don’t support states getting too involved in medical decisions but I also don’t support giving children puberty blockers and putting them on a path of lifelong medicalization.
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I agree that states should not mandate medical treatments about which they know nothing and where medical professional disagree.
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Do you support giving children ANY medications? Because it seems that you have appointed yourself an medical expert as if being on drugs all their lives is worse than suicide, dying of diabetes or some other illness where they would “have to be on drugs all their lives”.
Parents can give permission for their minors to have a nose job or pin their ears back or for a struggling teenage boy to have his large breasts made to look more male.
Maybe we should ban orthodontia. Shouldn’t some right wing politician decide what’s best rather than their parent?
Why would you rather see a child suffer than give them puberty blockers? You want to tell their parents you know better than they do?
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And to take FLERP!’s beliefs to the most ridiculous, no more organ transplants for children – how awful that they would have to be on drugs all their lives.
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Yes, I support doctor’s rights to prescribe medication to children. What a stupid question.
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“You want to tell their parents you know better than they do?”
If a parent with a child experiencing gender dysphoria wants to hear my opinion of whether they should put their child on drugs to delay the onset of puberty, I would be happy to give it to them. I’ve done the same for parents considering whether to put young boys on amphetamine salts.
These silly questions aren’t the huge gotcha you think they are.
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Thanks, NCY. Totally agree.
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FLERP!,
I don’t care what your opinion is on puberty blockers. But you certainly implied that you don’t have a problem with a state law that takes away that right from a parent.
If a parent with a child experiencing gender dysphoria wants to hear your opinion of whether the STATE SHOULD MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO put their child on drugs to delay the onset of puberty, would you be happy to give it to them?
Your intentionally obtuse comments aren’t the “gotcha” you think they are.
Lots of people have personal opinions about whether it’s the best decision for someone to have an early term abortion or a later abortion when the fetus has medical issues incompatible with life, and like you I am sure they would be happy to offer their opinion to any friend who asked you whether you thought they should have the abortion. So what? There’s no debate about whether you can express your opinion if someone were to ask you — we are in total agreement that if you want to tell them your opinion, we can. I bet everyone here agrees with both of us that you should feel free to offer your opinion to any friend who asks you and let them know exactly how your feel about whether their 11 year old child should be on puberty blockers.
If I were asked for my opinion on putting an 11 year old on puberty blockers, I would tell the friend that it’s important to talk to a lot of people with experience and knowledge about the pros and cons, and that I simply don’t know enough to have an opinion (except to seek out experts because each child’s case is UNIQUE.)
I would not hold out myself as someone whose opinion should matter EXCEPT my opinion to seek out others and my opinion that the parents – and not the state – should be making that decision. My opinion is that a state passing a law taking that right away from parents and medical professionals is WRONG and harmful to a child.
FLERP!, the last paragraph above seems like something you should agree with, too, regardless of your personal feelings.
If it is not, just own it. Admit you have no problem with laws being passed that make it illegal for 11 year olds to ever receive puberty blockers.
Don’t rant about “gotchas”. Just own your opinions.
But for the record, if your opinion is that a lawyer or anyone else should be allowed to offer their own opinion about puberty blockers to a friend who asks them for advice, then we all agree with you. It’s irrelevant to this conversation, in my opinion, but I certainly would oppose a law that made it illegal for you to offer your opinion on puberty blockers to parents who ask you for your opinion. I just wonder why you seem to support a state law that a parent does not have the right to decide.
Or if you oppose such a law as I do, then we are in total agreement!
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I think you didn’t read carefully what Flerp had to say.
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Bob, this is the problem I referred to below, the problem of domestic political associations making it difficult or impossible for otherwise intelligent people to think broadly about this stuff. That’s the only way I can explain how someone reads “I don’t think the state should get involved in decisions like this, but I also don’t support the practice of putting children on the path of lifelong medicalization” and respond dimly with “oh so you don’t believe children should be prescribed medication, I suppose!”
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I have given up trying to figure out why NYC PSP reads into people’s comments extreme positions that they did not take. I’ve knocked my head against that wall enough times already. Fight with a wall, and the wall wins.
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A nice metaphor for the will of a teen:
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FLERP!,
Bob Shepherd tells me that your position on puberty blockers for trans kids has always been crystal clear from your very first post:
“this should not be a matter for the law to decide.”
FLERP! I now understand that despite your personal feelings, you oppose laws banning access to puberty blockers. Glad we agree and apologies for not understanding from your posts that you oppose laws that would prevent a child from getting puberty blockers if their parents consent to it. We both agree that when it comes to puberty blockers, a child whose parent (and doctor) consents should have access to them.
Happy to state that for the record and I hope you are satisfied I correctly stated your position!
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All this would be clearer to you if you would read people’s posts more carefully and actually think about what they have actually said, NYC. Instead, you misinterpret something and go OFF. Page after page after page. One screed after another. All of it related to some evil straw man you’ve imagined. Seriously, this happens over and over and over and over again. And it can be prevented by simply starting to make a habit of reading people’s posts more carefully, more closely.
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And by the way, I never did this:
“Bob Shepherd tells me that your position on puberty blockers for trans kids has always been crystal clear from your very first post”
Why do you continually insist upon attributing to people things they did not say?
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Bob this is what you posted:
“I was referring to her earlier comment that this should not be a matter for the law to decide. This is the same point you made.”
Stop nit-picking because you don’t like me. You should be a mensch.
You affirmed to FLERP! that he had made a point that you had previously spent multiple posts criticizing me for not comprehending.
I assume you didn’t bother to read my response to you explaining why I had no idea that FLERP! had that position that you attacked me for not “comprehending” because FLERP! didn’t clarify that until I actually challenged him to do so.
I barely bother to come here anymore.
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Well at least we can all rest easy knowing that my position on state regulation of puberty blockers has been made clear for the record. Whatever would we do if that wasn’t clear? Imagine the consequences to society.
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FLERP!,
WTF? You and Bob just can’t stop being gratuitously nasty, can you? Laughable to hear hypocrites complaining about my poor reading comprehension and supposedly putting words in other people’s mouths. Snarkiness in tone directed at me is always condoned by the tone police here.
I never said that there would be any “consequences to society” if your position wasn’t clear.
I just pointed out the true fact that your position wasn’t clear because you wrote an ambiguous comment. And I pointed out that true fact because Bob was attacking me for not reading carefully enough – implying that my not knowing your position was due entirely to my poor reading comprehension and not because your comment that I was responding to did nothing to enlighten anyone about your position.
You finally wrote a second comment in which you didn’t use qualifying words and that did make your position clear. I have no idea why you and Bob had to launch personal attacks.
All you had to do was respond with something like “you misunderstood me, I oppose the state being involved in any decisions related to puberty blockers, period”. I have no idea why you wouldn’t just do that. When you finally did so – not in response to me but to join Bob in bashing me – I acknowledged your position and thanked you for clarifying.
That should have been the end of it.
Bob and FLERP!
I don’t support states getting too involved in sports decisions but I also don’t support allowing biologically male students to play on female sports teams and giving them an unfair advantage.
If you assume that the sentence above informed you whether I would support or oppose states becoming involved in the specific sports issue of allowing biologically male students to play on female sports teams, your assumption would be wrong. It did not inform you. I may or may not oppose the state getting involved in this specific case, even though I don’t support the state being TOO involved in general sports decisions.
But if you read that ambiguous sentence and assumed that I had a position I didn’t, I would not launch a personal attack on you. I would not tell you how poor your reading comprehension is, and imply you are an idiot since I had made it obvious from that sentence whether or not I would strongly oppose a state law banning biological males from playing on female sports teams.
I would simply clarify my position by writing a less ambiguous sentence so you weren’t making assumptions about my position that weren’t true.
Notice I still haven’t clarified my position on whether I support states getting involved when it comes to biological males on female sports teams. You still don’t know what it is. But that’s not because of your poor reading comprehension – it’s because nothing I wrote told you what my position was.
And if you (understandably) assumed I had a position I didn’t, I would simply clarify my position so there was no ambiguity. No need for personal attacks because you couldn’t read my mind. No need to blame your poor reading comprehension instead of acknowledging my ambiguous writing.
Just be a mensch. It goes a long way.
Asking people not to be rude and nasty isn’t something that the fate of the world depends on. I never said that there are great consequences to whether someone’s opinion is known. I merely pointed out CORRECTLY that I responded to an ambiguous comment and then acknowledged when the person belatedly clarified their position. It mystifies me that the two you are so angry at me.
Now I expect you and Bob to post another 4 or 5 nasty personal comments insulting me because it’s so much easier to do so than to actually be a mensch.
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Cut the crap, you come into these threads specifically to start fights with me and then if things don’t go your way it’s all “you guys are so rude and nasty.” It’s boring.
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FLERP!,
I don’t understand your comment.
; )
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Flerp, I have no idea why NYC has decided to go after you here. I emphatically do not agree with what she has said in these screeds. When I said that I agreed with her, I was referring to her earlier comment that this should not be a matter for the law to decide. This is the same point you made.
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Bob,
Please don’t reply to this with another gratuitously nasty personal attack.
Bob says:
“this should not be a matter for the law to decide. This is the same point you made.”
FLERP! did not make that point until my very last comment above, where I ended it with:
“I just wonder why you seem to support a state law that a parent does not have the right to decide.
Or if you oppose such a law as I do, then we are in total agreement!”
I wrote that because AT THE TIME, Flerp!’s position had been:
“The state should not get too involved in medical decisions in general.” (“too involved” versus a little involved? Is this one of the rare times when the state should be involved?)
The ambiguity of FLERP!’s original statement is amplified when it is followed by a sentence invoking the serious harm done to children by their parents’ choice to give them puberty blockers.
A right wing anti-trans Republican could have said it: “I don’t support states getting too involved in medical decisions but I also don’t support giving children puberty blockers and putting them on a path of lifelong medicalization. Because giving children puberty blockers is so harmful, this is one of those times when I have to vote for the state being involved.”
Bob, all FLERP! had to do was clarify his position — which did not happen until after my very last comment that you took such offense to.
I wrote:
“I just wonder why you seem to support a state law that a parent does not have the right to decide.
Or if you oppose such a law as I do, then we are in total agreement!”
It was only then that FLERP! wrote
“I don’t think the state should get involved in decisions like this, but I also don’t support the practice of putting children on the path of lifelong medicalization”
This is the very first comment I have written since FLERP! finally clarified that we are in 100% agreement and FLERP! supports parents making decisions about puberty blockers for their kid and FLERP! opposes state laws that would restrict the parents’ right to make that decision.
This is one of those rare times FLERP! and I are in complete agreement that laws preventing minors from accessing puberty blockers if they have their parents’ consent are wrong, period.
FLERP!, thank you for making clear that you support the LEGAL right of parents to make this decision and oppose laws restricting this.
Bob, consider your double standard.
Both Diane Ravitch and you responded to my first comment with agreement, and FLERP! responded “I don’t understand your comment.” Do you believe FLERP! “didn’t understand”?
And why would you attack me for writing a longer post addressed to the person who said they “didn’t understand” in order to help that person (FLERP!) understand the point of my post?
To sum it up, I am glad FLERP! finally posted a definitive statement that he/she opposes state laws restricting kids from having access to puberty blockers if their parents approve. In my opinion, this is the very first comment I made since FLERP! made that clear. If your opinion is that I should have already known that from FLERP!’s first ambiguous comment, so you feel justified in launching a personal attack, then we shall have to agree to disagree.
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Zzzzzzz
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Beautiful, Bob.
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How sad that this person was damned by an ignorant society.
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“On April 28, 1945, “Il Duce,” Benito Mussolini, and his mistress, Clara Petacci, were shot by Italian partisans who had captured the couple as they attempted to flee to Switzerland.”
“Adolf Hitler committed suicide on April 30, 1945 after being hunted by Soviet troops storming Berlin.”
Another autocratic fascist, Senator McCarthy “continued to speak against communism and socialism until his death at the age of 48 at Bethesda Naval Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland, on May 2, 1957. His death certificate listed the cause of death as ‘Hepatitis, acute, cause unknown’. Doctors had not previously reported him to be in critical condition.”
Stalin had a massive stroke.
Mao and Chiang Kai-shek died of old age the same year.
I wonder what Dangerously Deranged DeSantis’ end will be.
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Stalin had a stroke and lay for hours in a pool of his own urine in his office, still alive but unable to speak or move, and nobody dared knock on his door, even though he had missed an appointment, because they were terrified of him. Others’ fear of him killed him.
Some say Karma’s a bitch. But no. She’s just fair.
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There was a very funny satirical movie called “The Death of Stalin” that came out in 2017. Worth watching.
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I shall look for it!
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That was a good one, Diane.
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It’s very sad the long term medical harm that this young man will have to face lifelong because the medical profession determined that he was female, rather than a gender non-conforming boy. Putting children on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and affirming new gender identities is a science fiction experimentation that we are seeing played out on 21st century kids in Western countries, largely hyped up by big pharma with lifelong profits generated by their lifelong medical needs. Let’s examine some of the ways that we are harming children- no ability to achieve orgasm or sexual pleasure- a right that should be available to all humans, issues with mental acuity and function, heart and musculoskeletal issues, early onset osteoporosis, cancers, and many other unknown issues that we are only starting to learn about. This is not a left – right issue. This is the right for a child to go through puberty intact and without experimental tinkering on our evolutionary biological systems. You might as well be talking about foot binding or female genital mutilation. All three are forms of oppression. Finland, a country known for its deep respect for and nurturing of children, along with several other Northern European countries are putting a stop to medical transition of young people and children. The longitudinal studies on the new cohorts of kids going through these procedures do not show positive outcomes. We should follow science, and not medicalize our young people, many of whom are gay or autistic. I leave your readers with an article written by lead adolescent psychologist in Finland who works specifically with gender dysphoric youth. https://open.substack.com/pub/bariweiss/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor?r=9benm&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
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Gender is the set of attained (learned or acquired while alive) attributes traditionally associated in a given society with people of a particular sex. Sex is the biological inheritance. Much confusion and many problems could be avoided if people would learn that they can experiment as much as they like with gender (dress, accoutrements, makeup, ways of walking and sitting and speaking, activities undertaken, and so on) AT ANY AGE but that changing one’s sex before maturity should be a rare occurrence. I personally think that younger people’s willingness to experiment with gender and sexual orientation is a great new birth of freedom. All that about gender vs. sex said, there are situations, and this child’s seems to be one of them, as did my childhood friend Casey’s, described above. That’s why there should not be a one-size-fits-all legislation of this matter and it should be left up to doctors and parents.
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cx: All that about gender vs. sex said, there are situations, and this child’s seems to be one of them, as did that of my childhood friend Casey, described above, where earlier gender-affirming care is likely appropriate.
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It’s doubtful that puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are “helping” young people develop acceptance of their biological selves. This seems like a hatred of the body, a distrust or fear of sexual maturation through puberty, and an ignorance of the healthy and necessary sexual function on human development and intimate relationships. To my mind it brings up Western Calvinism or Puritanical disgust with the sexual body, rather than acceptance of sex as a natural function of the body and mind.
So called “third” genders in indigenous cultures are often categories created for their members who don’t fit into the gendered norms in their societies, but they don’t believe that their kids are born “wrong” or that they get to completely identify into the opposite sex category, and they definitely don’t do medical experiments on them or block them from maturation. The fafafine males in Polynesian cultures, for example, are gay effeminate men who don’t get to play on girls’ sports teams. But they get to wear the clothes that they prefer and do the jobs that fit their personal interests, which may seem more “feminine”.
Did you read the article I posted? I would prefer not to destroy young people’s lives and find out later through lawsuits that the American medical association got this very very wrong.
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I agree that extreme caution is in order. That is why I want young people to understand the difference between sex and gender, that they can experiment with changes in the latter without undergoing the former.
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Good article, Sasha. Thanks for posting it.
It’s a shame that this is such a politicized issue in the U.S. As a general rule, Republicans ruin everything, and this is no exception. A lot of otherwise smart people simply won’t entertain the counter-narrative in that article (counter to the U.S. model, as opposed to the European approach) because “gender affirming care” has been coded as a civil rights issue and opposition to gender affirming care has been coded as “Republican” and thus bad. This isn’t unlike the diverging American and European approaches to school closures in the pandemic. Too many people just assume the U.S. approach is the correct one because, well, it’s the U.S. approach, and because of how the domestic political codes line up on the issues here.
As I’ve said elsewhere in this thread and many other times in comments on this blob, states should not be interceding in what are quintessentially medical decisions. But at the same time, people need to learn more about the risks and long-term dangers of the American model and the extent to which the American approach is essentially flying blind without good data to support that approach. Medical malpractice litigation may help curb the American model into something more like the emerging European approach, with “watchful waiting” becoming the norm and gender affirming care being used in experimental settings.
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I agree, Flerp. And yes, Sasha, I did read the article.
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I think, Flerp, that you are spot on. This shouldn’t be against the law. It should be up to parents and doctors and their children working together. But it should be EXTREMELY RARE.
NB that there are kids born intersex, and a decision is made for them shortly after birth. Sometimes it is the wrong decision. And the kid knows it from very early on.
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But as with abortion, there are subtleties and variations of situation that cannot be foreseen by crude, Procrustean laws. So, legislators need to stifle their urges to control other people’s bodies.
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A big problem in this country is that right wing extremists continue to politicize access to health care to appease certain subgroups in their party and cause more cultural chaos. Health care like education should be in the hands of professionals.
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I find it fascinating that people whose knowledge of what the US “medical model” is for young people seems to be taken from right wing anti-trans propaganda (doctors are “flying blind”) are certain that the US approach is very bad and very different from Europe.
There is a ridiculous implication that an 11 year old or teen can just walk in and get treatment in the US. They cannot.
The US is already very similar to Europe, but the Republicans (and their enablers who legitimize and spread their propaganda) invoke some fake version of Europe where those poor deluded trans children are now being “protected” from the dangers they face in the US.
It isn’t true, but that doesn’t stop right wing anti-trans folks from invoking a progressive Europe as if their approach is now so much more restrictive than the US.
It isn’t. In fact, Europe and the US approaches are already quite similar and the false narrative that America is “flying blind” and different from Europe is simply not true.
Politico, 10/8/2023 “The real story on Europe’s transgender debate”:
“There is a lot of intentional misinterpretation in the U.S. of what is happening in Europe, and that misinterpretation is happening for ideological and political reasons,” said Kellan Baker, executive director of the Whitman-Walker Institute, which focuses on LGBTQ health policy and research.”
“…a POLITICO review of the state of care for transgender people in Europe found more nuance than Republicans critics like Hunt and Bailey often portray. While Europeans are debating who should get care and when, only Russia has banned the practice. The reassessment of standards in some European countries has aimed to tighten eligibility for gender-affirming care, but also sought to expand research studies including minors.”
What is really happening in Europe:
Norway:
“Norway made headlines last year after one of its independent agencies recommended defining gender-affirming care for minors as “experimental.” But a year-and-a-half later, those recommendations have yet to be implemented.
The guidelines proposed by the Norwegian Healthcare Investigation Board would have made it far more difficult for young trans people to receive treatment, trans organizations said at the time.
So far, the Norwegian Directorate of Health, which has the authority to set formal guidelines, hasn’t adopted the board’s recommendation.
The directorate has instead maintained current rules that allow children to receive puberty blockers once puberty has started and get hormone treatment starting at age 16. While surgical treatment is generally not applicable to minors, chest surgery can be approved in special cases.
“There is no ongoing revision to the guidelines,” Torunn Janbu, director of specialized health care services in the Norwegian Directorate of Health, told POLITICO.”
Sweden:
“In practice, Karolinska and Sweden’s other clinics continue to have latitude to decide which cases qualify, said Edward Summanen, project manager at Sweden’s largest trans organization, Transammans.
“According to our experiences, many young trans people who need gender-affirming care can access it,” Summanem said, albeit with long wait times.”
France:
“But French doctors offering transgender care said the guidelines aren’t impeding access. Children are eligible for hormone treatments with parental permission at any age and for surgical removal of breasts from age 14. However, hormones are usually prescribed around age 15 or 16 and breast surgery is usually performed after 16, said Laetitia Martinerie, a doctor in the pediatric endocrinology and diabetology department at the Robert-Debré University Hospital in Paris…..
“It has not changed anything as we were already providing multidisciplinary care,” Martinerie said.”
UK:
“But the British haven’t banned gender-affirming care for minors and plan to open new clinics with strict eligibility criteria.
What Republicans have portrayed as a rejection of treatment for children could as easily be seen as a debate about mismanagement and clinical standards.
In announcing the Tavistock clinic’s closure, the NHS said it would “improve and expand services for children and young people experiencing gender incongruence and gender dysphoria” across the country. The promised new services would “ensure that the holistic needs” of patients are fully met, the health service said.
After a legal battle centering on care for minors, the Court of Appeal, a rung below the Supreme Court, ruled in September 2021 that doctors, not judges, should decide whether minors may consent to gender-affirming care.”
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I’ve taught a lot of teenagers, and I can attest that the will of a teenager is the wind’s will. Their minds are as yet not completely formed, especially those parts of their minds that govern impulse control and planning for the future. They are highly emotional, even volatile, and highly emotionally labile. I do not trust them to make irreversible decisions. Responsible adults shouldn’t. Our job is to care for them until they are able to make major life decisions on their own. The parts of the brain that do planning and impulse control are not fully in place until around age 26.
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Bob, Flerp, and others,
I follow many of the detransitioners on their substacks. Ritchie, a detransitioned gay man who is suing his government, just published a very wise commentary on this culture war, and the types of social media scrapes he and others have gotten involved in since going public with their medical malpractice cases of “gender affirming care”. Should anyone under 26 get this treatment? I think Ritchie and those who have been through it say “no!” Indeed, Richard Anumene, a detransitioned young man who is suing Kaiser here in California, had his vaginoplasty done at age 27. He is so angry and several of us are trying to provide social relationships, support, and relief for him. Richard is a very depressed man living in post transition surgery incontinence and pain, with a history of traumatic sexual abuse, family negligence, and mental illness, all which should have been red flags for Kaiser’s medical and psychiatric experts, but instead, he was lovebombed and encouraged at every turn that more hormones and more surgeries would make him feel “more authentic”. All of us on the progressive left should be very carefully reading the detransitioners stories and the whistleblowers in these clinics who are exposing this medical and psychiatric scandal. Here is Ritchie Herron’s article: https://open.substack.com/pub/tullipr/p/where-is-the-line?r=9benm&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
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Sasha,
You are all over the place with your comments.
An 11 year old who has felt like the opposite gender their entire life is not a teen being influenced by something they read online. Why oppose puberty blockers which make the eventual transition much easier on the person?
A 27-year old who is approved for surgery and regrets it happens for surgeries having nothing to do with gender transition and we don’t politicize it. And no one knows the “what would have been”. If a 20 something commits suicide because of gender dysphoria, is that a win because they didn’t have surgery that they might have eventually regretted?
I see 20 year olds with enormous holes in their earlobes or tattoos covering their faces. Will they regret it? Some rich lady had so many plastic surgeries that her face looked monstrous.
Your posts seem to be more about bashing people here than any real desire to consider the child’s best interest.
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I read a few days ago that a judge in a Southern state (maybe Texas) denied an abortion to a pregnant child. He said she wasn’t “mature enough” to make that decision.
Implied, she may be 10 or 11 or 12, but she’s mature enough to be a mother.
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Diane,
I suspect that 10 or 11 year old could be 30 and the judge would rule that she wasn’t “mature enough” to make that decision.
Is her mother mature enough to make that decision for her child?
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I wish reporters would put scare quotes around Christian. A “Christian” group elevates its understanding of gender over “love your neighbor; love one another; love your enemy.”
Their position has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.
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You would have to put scare quotes around “Christianity” generally, for it has very little to do with Jesus of Nazareth, later described as “the Christ,” aka “the annointed one or messiah,” by followers. See this passage from the book of John, which I am quoting in the King James version:
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Here, Yeshua is quoting Psalm 82:6, in which God says,
“I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”
So, he wasn’t making a special claim for himself. He was making a claim for all of us, that we are all sons and daughters of god, chips off divinity. He then goes on to explain that they should judge whether his works and speech are of god. In other words, his claim is that he is A SON of God and that unlike some other people, he takes that seriously.
So, yeah, the Church has not taken the teachings of Jesus very seriously. Otherwise, it would not have left rivers of blood throughout history in the name of the prince of peace.
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My comment about actual teaching by Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth is in moderation. Here, a poem on the same theme (tis the season):
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I have never understood how so many massacres and murders and wars are perpetrated in the name of the Prince of Peace.
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He was one of the good guys, brother Yeshua.
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I highly recommend the books of New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman, who came to the same conclusion about the actual teachings of Jesus that I did. I will spare you the complex (and I think definitive) arguments here. But do see his wonderful books.
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Florida’s political districts are unfairly gerrymandered; I wouldn’t say anyone is democratically or fairly elected in Florida – contrary to the judge’s remark.
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Here are the relevant questions : Did this student have an unfair physical advantage over the girls on opposing teams or put the opposing players in physical danger? If so, that student should not be allowed to play on the girls team; if not, allow that student to play.
But that’s not what the hysteria on this blog is about. It’s about virtue-signaling your moral superiority on this trendiest of all culture war issues. The vast majority of female athletes believe it is unfair to them to have to compete against biological males.
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Please reread the comments above. I don’t think I did “virtue signaling.” This is far too serious an issue for that nonsense.
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Vicky,
The coach of the girl’s volleyball team said that this player was not a “superstar.” She was an average player.
I don’t do “virtue signaling.” I think things through and reach my decisions without regard to what others think. This player seemed not to have a physical advantage; she played in 33 games. There are no reports of anyone being injured by this player.
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POLICE DISPATCHER: Pleasantville Police. This is a recorded line. What is your emergency?
NEIGHBOR GUY: My next-door neighbor just walked out onto his porch with a shotgun and emptied it into the postman.
POLICE DISPATCHER: I understand that you do not approve of murdering people, but this is an emergency line. It is not a place for you to do virtue signaling.
NEIGHBOR GUY: Virtue signaling? What the holy. . . ?
POLICE DISPATCHER: Virtue signaling your moral superiority to your neighbor.
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Sometimes, Ms. Anders, people raise a moral issue because they care about it, not because they are “virtue signaling,” as my little satire of your comment (see about) suggests.
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See above
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On another matter, why isn’t Trump in jail awaiting trial for espionage for handing that extremely sensitive intelligence file to the Russians?
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And now for something completely different (well, not completely; it’s related).
The producers of Lucy, starring Scarlet Johansson, spent 40 million dollars to make the film, which is science fiction, but they couldn’t bother themselves to pay five to ten K to engage an actual scientist to look at their script.
So, the opening of the film shows a hominid creature drinking from a lake, and the voice-over (Johannson) says, “Life was given to us 1 billion years ago.”
Well, uh, no. The earliest life that we know of on Earth dates to about 3.8 billion years ago. We and that life share a common lost ancestor. The appearance of the earliest Homo sapiens dates to only about 200,000 to 300,000 years ago. An ape ancestor of ours lived about 6 million years ago.
There is no excuse for the spreading of falsehood (e.g., “Life was given to us 1 billion years ago”) in our popular culture. No wonder so many Americans are idiot science deniers when it comes to matters like vaccine efficacy and climate change.
That science advisor could also have told the writers that it is false that “most creatures use only 3 to 5 percent of their cerebral capacity,” and he or she could have taught Morgan Freeman to pronounce “cerebral” correctly.
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Hmmm. Maybe there are some humans who use only 3 to 5 percent of their brains. Perhaps they are called Republican followers of the Republi-con, Donald, who, in addition, has the moral compass of parasitic wasp larvae.
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This made me think of the Jim Gaffigan bit about Heat.
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At one point in the Lucy film, Morgan Freeman, who plays a generic scientist/professor, says, “There are more connections in the human body than there are stars in the galaxy.” Well, there are 100-400 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy, but there are between 28 and 36 TRILLION cells in the human body, each with lots of connections to other cells. This like saying, “There are even more stars in the galaxy than there are obelisks on the Mall in Washington, DC!” LOL. Oh yes. Famous scientists talk this way to mesmerized audiences. Aie yie yie. Idiotic. A complete fail.
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As you can see, I intend to talk about it despite that, Flerp. HAAAA!
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Compassion for Daisy as a human being suffering disappointment and embarrassment over his current situation is right and proper. However, that compassion should be tempered by the understanding that his presenting as female AND expecting those around him to treat him exactly AS a female was an unhealthy untethering from reality and not a societal good. Moreover, it does need to be asked, “Where is the compassion for the actual girl volleyball players?” His fellow teammates that were at greater risk for injury because a trans-identifying male was playing with them, not to mention the girls who lost their slots on volleyball teams to him over the years?
We encounter these narratives from leftist extremists of the lone, unfortunate trans-identifying male athlete again and again…battling “transphobia” from “bigots” who refuse to accept that a male who has undergone medicalization to mimic the opposite sex, much less a male who simply asserts that he’s a female…inside…because he says so…can ever truly be female.
But, where are the narratives lifting up the girl athletes who, after years upon years of preparing to compete in female sports, now find that their competition now includes male-bodied individuals? Where are those stories?
Cynthia Cravens
Lifelong Classic Liberal/
Longtime Democrat
Candidate, California State Senate, District 11
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I hope California voters understand how appropriate is your surname.
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You are ignorant, lost, or have a mental illness yourself if you think a man or boy should play on womens sports. Why do transmen not join men? Why is the transfemale joining only? Think we know why. If you are a female and supoirt this you are as dumb as a gay protester advocating for palestine and hamas where you would be stoned or worse.
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The troll keeps changing his name and IP address.
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