Writing in The New Yorker, where she is a contributing columnist, Jeannie Suk Gersen analyzes the SCOTUS decision that ended affirmative action. Gersen is a Harvard Law School professor.
Gersen writes that the High Court forbade explicit consideration of race in evaluating candidates for admission, but it left a small opening:
Since universities can no longer consider applicants’ race in deciding whether to offer them admission, the immediate practical question is what information they can consider about applicants. In a key sentence, toward the end of his ruling, Roberts said, “Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise.” (Harvard cited the sentence in a message to its community after the Court’s decision.) Roberts’s point was that “the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race.”
It remains to be seen whether colleges will find “race-neutral” ways of identifying students of color so they can maintain a diverse enrollment. One way is to de-emphasize standardized testing, which enlarges the pool of Black candidates.
Colleges and universities have long contended that demographic diversity is an important goal. The learning experience is enriched, they argued, when students come from different backgrounds and bring different perspectives.
But the goal of diversity was thrown out by the Roberts’ court. The six-justice majority ruled that diversity is no longer to be considered by courts to be “a compelling interest.”
She writes:
But even the liberal dissenters, in their strong defense of the need for race-conscious affirmative action, seemed not quite willing to tether their support of the policy to the goal of student-body diversity. That is because the dissenters, in two opinions, penned by Justice Sonia Sotomayor and by Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, were focussed on the continuing need to remedy the devastating, ongoing effects of the historical subjugation of Black Americans.
Perhaps the most unfortunate aspect of the affirmative-action precedents is that since 1978, in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, the Court has said that the goal of remedying past societal discrimination and injustice is not a compelling interest for schools to pursue in admissions. The dissents in the S.F.F.A. cases underscored not only that the sins that the United States has visited on Black people did not end after slavery and Jim Crow but also that the original justification for affirmative action which the Court approved five decades ago—diversity—was entirely incommensurate to the profound problem to be addressed and was doomed to fail. ♦
Suppose the goal of affirmative action was to fast track large numbers of students from historically disadvantaged groups into the professions and the upper ranks of the business and corporate world. On that ground, it’s clear that affirmative action has been a remarkable success. It has propelled many hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of men and women into medicine, law, education, social work, and every other field.
But the problem that affirmative action was created to solve is very far from solved. Despite the strides that have been made, Blacks, Hispanics, people from Indigenous groups are still very far from equality. They continue to suffer from the historic injuries of the past.
I wonder: if the lawyers for the universities had justified affirmative action not on the value of diversity but on the basis of righting historic wrongs, would the Court have ruled differently? I don’t think so. The six hard-right Justices are on a mission to roll back civil rights law, to curb the power of government to right wrongs, and you encourage the emergence of a society in which people pull themselves up by their bootstraps without relying on government.
We know the problems with the bootstrap theory of progress. In a world where there is so much inequality, some people don’t need to pull themselves up. They are already on top. Others, those on the bottom, may not have any bootstraps at all. Rugged individualism will not reduce social and economic inequality.
Sadly, we can no longer look to the Supreme Court to protect either precedents or rights. Instead, we must tremble for our future whenever they announce a new decision.
The only hope for our democracy is an electoral sweep that makes possible an FDR or an LBJ.
It’s not likely to happen in 2024, given Trump’s loyal base, but I believe our survival as a democracy depends on re-electing Biden. Neither Trump nor DeSantis is qualified for the Presidency. The American renaissance is likely to happen when enough citizens realize that the Republican Party is no longer interested in protecting the Constitution and the rule of law. Will that be after Trump leaves politics? Will it be 2028? 2032?
Liz Cheney said recently that the biggest problem in our politics is that the people keep electing “idiots.” We will have our Renaissance when voters realize that governing requires reason and intelligence. That would mean a blue wave to sweep the idiots out of office.

The loss of affirmative action as a tool for redress is small potatoes, given the extent of what is to be addressed, but it was something.
To get a sense of what needs redressing, have a look at this:
https://oag.ca.gov/ab3121/report
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Reparations is a dead-end, for the reasons I wrote the other day.
First, the price tag is so high that it is politically if not economically infeasible.
Second, the harm from slavery cannot be repaired. So reparations is a misnomer. No amount of money would satisfy the debt. The slate would not be wiped clean. This is not like a settlement agreement where the plaintiff receives a sum of money and in exchange agrees to waive all future claims that arise out of the same conduct (slavery). After reparations, we would be exactly where we are right now.
Third, the racial animus over payments to some but not all American blacks would be enormous and a terrible thing for the future of this country.
My hope is that elite universities immediately ditch legacy admissions. They have the power to do so right now. They came up with legacy preferences and only they can end them. I’m not holding my breath, though. Harvard and it’s $50 billion will cry poor.
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You are completely missing my point, Flerp. Is this intentional? I thought I was clear.
I am asking people to read this report in this context not because I am arguing for reparations (though I would argue for those) but because I want people to recognize the scope and depth of the sins against this people, done by our country, that affirmative action tried, in tiny part, to address. My point is that GIVEN ALL THAT, given all the stuff that this report summarizes, affirmative action is a pretty darned small ask. I don’t think it possible to read this report and think otherwise.
The economic incentives are completely against their ditching legacy admissions. That would require direct federal law, oversight, and enforcement that just will not happen.
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In other words–and I thought I was clear about this, I am asking people to read this report NOT as an argument for (or against) reparations but for another purpose–because the report makes clear what stuff like affirmative action and the voting rights act and Brown attempts to redress. It gives a sense of the scope and depth the wrongs to be set right.
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I keep harping on this and posting this report because it’s obvious that a whole lotta white folk are clueless about the extent of the harm done and that continues to be done. This report makes it clear.
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A few years back, I was the lead editor of a project to create a lavish, four-color anthology of African American literature, music, history, and art. I called this book Grace Abounding. Why? Well, I took the phrase from the title of the book by John Bunyan: Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. My point there: Our country has greatly sinned against this people and continues to do so. And in return, this people has shown us the grace of their breathtaking contributions to our culture in literature, music, art, dance, etc. But here’s the rub: most white Americans are pretty much clueless about the sins against this people. They know only the slightest bit of it–a grain of sand on a beach. They really freaking need to educate themselves.
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I understood your point but I thought it was a worth discussing reparations, which is hardly irrelevant to that link you provided.
But there’s no doubt that slavery and Jim Crow were absolutely horrible.
Not to get into an oppression Olympics (and for the record no group suffered more in this country than blacks under slavery), but the history of the treatment of Asians in this country is also pretty shameful. But few people who defend affirmative action as practices want to discuss that.
The “elite” universities should be ashamed of legacy preferences. They have an astonishing amount of cash on hand. They should be shamed for legacy preferences until they drop them. And elite universities have shown they are desperate to avoid public shaming on “equity” grounds.
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Asian Americans are not under-represented at Harvard.
Asian Americans are 7.3% of the population in the US.
Here is the class most recently admitted at Harvard:
A Brief Profile of the Admitted Class of 2026 ;
African American. 15.2% ;
Asian American. 27.9% ;
Hispanic or Latino. 12.6% ;
Native American. 2.9%.
Asian American: 27.9%
African American: 15.2%
Native American: 2.9%
Hispanic or Latino: 12.6%
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Bob,
Thank you.
This country for most of its existence made it 1000x times harder for Black citizens to accumulate any wealth compared to white citizens. Black citizens were specifically victimized by legal restrictions for nearly the entire existence of this country in a way that other races, including Asians and Latinx and Jews were not, despite the fact that those other groups were also disadvantaged compared to whites. Black citizens continue to be faced with a disadvantage that comes from the implicit racism in this society that the more recent shocking videos reveal only the tip of.
What the Supreme Court has basically done is the equivalent of a Monopoly game where 90% of the bank is distributed to 2 players, 9% is distributed to the other 2 players, and 1% is distributed to the final 2 players, and all of that happens before the game begins. And then the Supreme Court announces that the game is fair because the rules of playing the game are the same for each player, and as long as the “rules” (designed by the 2 people given 90% of the bank before the game begins) are the same for everyone, the outcome is fair. And ANY attempt to redress the fact that 2 players start with 90% of the bank before the game begins is “illegal”.
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Well said, NYCPSP!
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That’s terrible logic, Diane. By that logic whites are massively at represented at Harvard. I assume you don’t think that.
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When Asian Americans have 4x more seats at Harvard that their representation in the population, it’s hard to see systematic bias.
My prediction is that five years from now, the demographic profile of Harvard and other elite institutions won’t be very different from now. Those colleges and universities want diversity, want to educate a representative population, and they will get the balance they want.
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Again, Diane, that is just terrible logic. By that logic, whites, who are 60% of the national population and only 33% of Harvard’s freshmen class, are massively underrepresented. But you don’t believe that whites are underrepresented at Harvard, because you don’t believe that percentage of population is the correct measurement of how many whites should be at Harvard’s. Yet you’ll use that metric when it suits your desire to argue that Harvard is treating Asian applicants fairly.
This blog’s inability to conceive of how Asian students are treated—from the top down to every single commenter except apparently me—is just embarrassing.
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I can’t say whether white students are under-represented at Harvard. Since whites control the levers of power in the US and always have, I’m happy to see diversification of the ruling class. I have a hard time agreeing that Asian Americans are underrepresented at Harvard when they are 7% of the population but nearly 30% of Harvard’s freshmen class.
Compared to Blacks, who have suffered hundreds of years of racism, Asians are doing very well in the US. As a large and very diverse group of nationalities, Asian Americans are the group with the highest income.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/233324/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-race-or-ethnic-group/
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FLERP! says:
“By that logic, whites, who are 60% of the national population and only 33% of Harvard’s freshmen class, are massively underrepresented.”
I am very confused about the math here.
How can whites be underrepresented by so much if every other ethnic group except Asians is also underrepresented?
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One thing we know for sure: high test scores are not underrepresented at Hawvid.
“You are just a score”
You’re really just a score
You’re really nothing more
At Harvard and at Yale
The score will tell the tale
Of practice tests and tutors
On paper and computers
Of countless dollars spent
To Kaplan they were sent
The score is what you are
But score will get you far
The score’s the master key
That opens doors, you see
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It’s really no surprise that so many people who get a degree from elite institutions have such a limited way of looking at the world.
It’s been hammered into them by years of multiple choice tests in which there is always just one right answer (allegedly)
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May be why so many of our national catastrophes (in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere) have been propagated by Ivy League grads who were simply incapable of seeing an alternative perspective that was not the standard “right” answer that they were taught.
Binary thinking can be deadly.
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SomeDAM Poet Don’t you know that poor people and even those who go to community college, rather than Harvard, Princeton, or MIT, are dispensable? CBK
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Ivy League Parrots
The parrot squawks the phrase
For which he got a cracker
Like Skinner’s pigeon ways
He really is a hacker
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Skinner (a Harvard prof) thought people were a lot like pigeons hacking at buttons for treats.
Maybe his conclusion was based on the sort of students he was seeing at Harvard.
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Ironically, Skinner himself was actually a lot like his pigeons.
The more treats he got (in the form of accolades from his peers), the more rigid he became in his central thesis.
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“I can’t say whether white students are under-represented at Harvard.”
Of course you can. You already indicated that you can tell whether there are too many or too few members of a “group” of students by comparing their enrollment percentage to their percentage of the total population. That’s how you determined that there could not possibly be anti-Asian discrimination at Harvard—if anything, because there are multiples times more Asians at Harvard than there are Asians in the total population, there are too many Asians there, right?
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FLERP,
I did not say that there are “too many” Asians at Harvard. I said that they are not underrepresented nor are they victims of bias.
The proportion of Asians in the population is 7.3%, but nearly 30% of the entering class is Asian.
I don’t see this as “evidence” of under representation or bias against Asians.
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(Sigh.) Let there be reparations! The sooner, the better. The sooner reparations’ systems of messy consequences can arise for the worse, the sooner reparations’ systems of messy consequences can be dissolved for the better.
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Frankly the best system probably would have been quota set-asides reserved specifically for American descendants of slavery, on a reparations theory.
It would result in some unfairness in individual cases, but all systems do.
It would have been a clear, coherent, and understandable rationale for affirmative action, in contrast to “diversity.”
It would not have been game-able by people who have no claim to have a family history that suffered under slavery.
It would have stigmatized black students at top universities as quota beneficiaries, but there’s no getting around that. That’s going to happen with a quota system.
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Frankly, the best system would continue to be affirmative action.
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Yeah, we disagree about that.
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FLERP!,
How does the Supreme Court decision affect Native Americans? Since the Constitution forbids the college considering the fact that they are Native American now.
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Presumably applicants with Native American lineage will apply to universities like everyone else does. If their application is strong enough and the school thinks it would be a good fit, they will be admitted. If they grew up on a rez and that impacted them in noteworthy ways, they can write a pretty interesting personal statement. But people with some tiny amount of Native American DNA will not be getting a bump from checking a box.
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https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/105303
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FLERP! says: “It would not have been game-able by people who have no claim to have a family history that suffered under slavery.”
Affirmative action doesn’t just address the suffering that happened to Black people during the time they were enslaved. It addresses the suffering that happened because America was so racist of a society that we held in bondage a whole group of people based on their race, buying and selling them like they were livestock, not humans. Freeing the slaves meant Black people were no longer bought and sold like property, but they were still subject to racist laws and legalized racism for another 100+ years. Ending slavery didn’t change that. Affirmative action isn’t just people who suffered under slavery, it is about people who suffered long, long after slavery was abolished because of the institutionalized racism that legalized slavery. Slavery was a symptom of the racism, but just one of many ways that victimized Black Americans.
There has never been a special carve out that exempted Black Americans who came here after slavery was abolished, when racist laws and institutional racism directly harmed Black Americans. There was no special exemption that said “but if you are Black but not descended from slaves, you have all the rights of a white person.”
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You are right about that. You don’t need to have a grandparent who was a slave to experience racism and second-class citizens (if that).
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NYCPSP, I think you miss the central point, one that is shared with the majority of whites and all of the cult: history began with a clean slate after the Civil War and passage of the 13th, 14, and 15th amendments. Everyone from then on had the same opportunity, no succeeding generation, descended from enslaved persons or not, should be held responsible for anything that happened since, nor is it right (well, it is Right) to expect anything to be done about it ever, it’s just too difficult and divisive a problem to solve. And trying to do so demonstrates just how stupid and narrow-minded the people are who would say anything to distract from such an obvious, truthful narrative of America being the center of the world or attending weekend games at Jesus State.
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NYCPSP, I answered your question about Native American applicants. The same applies to applicants of any race or ethnicity.
Most people disagree that the system you describe was a good one. I am one of them.
Anyway, it is no longer legal to give applicants a bump simply because they belong to a certain racial or ethnic category. Schools will probably continue to do it, and if they do, they will be sued, as they should be.
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Greg Brozeit gets very angry when people don’t agree with the way he sees things.
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GregB,
Yep, that certainly explains FLERP!’s point that I quoted where FLERP! seemed to believe that “a clear, coherent, and understandable rationale for affirmative action” would be to have quota set asides exclusively for “Americans descendants of slavery”, excluding all Black Americans who came here later, which seems to ignore the long, long history of post-slavery legalized discrimination which made no distinction between a Black person “descendant of slavery” and a Black person who wasn’t, or couldn’t prove he wasn’t.
There is a plausible (perhaps unlikely) different explanation – that FLERP! was doing something similar to what I did when I said that since it WAS perfectly legal for a college to give admissions preferences to groups that are virtually guaranteed to have a high percentage of white applicants and almost no Black applicants, colleges could come up with groups that were virtually guaranteed to have a high percentage of Black applicants and virtually no white applicants. I threw out an idea but obviously it would need more thought, since it’s not as easy as colleges using the preferences that mostly benefit white students, including legacy preference (which in elite colleges doesn’t benefit legacies as much as people believe) and colleges giving preferences to very rich and/or connected applicants regardless of where their parents attended school.
FLERP!’s suggestion of descendants of slaves could possibly be in the same vein. I doubt we will know because FLERP! usually responds to criticism by complaining of the person’s tone, rather than clarifying or defending his opinions.
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I think GregB also can see that when someone is reduced to defending their support of a controversial Supreme Court decision by saying that “Most people disagree that the system you describe was a good one” and “Anyway, it is no longer legal to give applicants a bump…”, that they don’t believe they can make a compelling case for their point of view. If anything, it suggests a person who believes things because “most people” do and who supported legalized abortion or affirmative action or LGBTQ rights right up to the minute the Supreme Court deciding to strike them down, and then that person opposed legalized abortion and affirmative action and LGBTQ rights. As any high school debater knows, if your argument for your position is “most people agree with me” or “The Supreme Court agrees with me” you will score very, very low.
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As I said over and over in the other thread here, the unpopularity of affirmative action among Americans is not proof that affirmative action is unconstitutional. What it’s proof of is that the Supreme Court’s decision on affirmative action is not evidence that the Court is radical or out of step with American opinion.
There’s been a lot to be distressed about in several decisions by SCOTUS in the last couple years. Although I am nervous about what is to come, this decision is not distressing. I understand literally everyone here disagrees, and that’s fine.
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When Nixon first proposed affirmative action, I was opposed to it. But having seen its success in producing doctors, lawyers, architects, scientists, and other professionals, I appreciate how valuable it was in expanding the numbers of Black professionals.
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We would have had black doctors and lawyers without affirmative action. We will continue to have them without affirmative action, even if universities don’t try to skirt the law, which they probably will.
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It is clearly useless to bother to discuss this question with those who oppose affirmative action. Might as well talk to a wall.
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Exactly this same argument was made for decades by apologists for the antebellum South: Slavery was on its way out. We would have had the end of slavery without the Civil War. It’s like, where have I heard THAT before?
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You write:
“We would have had black doctors and lawyers without affirmative action.”
We probably would not have as many Black professionals as we do now. Affirmative action made a difference.
As I wrote when the decision was released, the majority of American colleges and universities accept all applicants.
The elite institutions will continue to recruit and admit students of color. They will weigh many factors, place less emphasis on standardized test scores, and end up with a ratio of groups similar to now.
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If the demographics of Harvard don’t change after this decision, that will be the unmistakable sign that Harvard is continuing to use race as a factor in admissions in violation of the law. They will be sued and should be sued.
Diane, everyone knows that the admissions standards for Asian applicants to Harvard are higher than for every other race/ethnicity. Asian students know they need to score higher on their SATs and have better GPAs than other applicants. And then people will say stuff like “there is a disproportionately high number of Asians at Harvard relative to the overall population.” And they see nothing wrong with that statement.
My daughter went to a high school that was about 70% Asian. Most of her high school friends were Asian. They knew they had almost no shot at Harvard because they were the wrong race. They knew, thanks to the Harvard lawsuit, that Asian applicants had the lowest personality ratings of all applicants.
I know how they would react to being told that we know Harvard doesn’t discriminate against Asian applicants because Asian students make up 3x the population at Harvard that they make up in the US total population.
Don’t you think it’s interesting how pretty much nobody but me (or those responding to me) have even used the word “Asian” in this thread?
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Skinner (a Harvard prof) thought people were a lot like pigeons hacking at buttons for treats.
Maybe his conclusion was based on the sort of students he was seeing at Harvard.
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Skinner was for a short time head of the Psychology Department at Indiana University. When I was a Psychology student there in the 1980s, some of the Psych grad students hanged him in effigy in front of the Psych building.
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And this:
https://timesmuseum.org/en/journal/south-of-the-south/venus-in-two-acts
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What is happening thanks to the fascist majority of justices in the US Supreme Court, and the insanity generated by the so called freedom caucus, that should be called the fascist caucus, is a Koch/ALEC wet dream coming true.
Koch and ALEC’s weality elite membership have worked hard for this since the 1970s, spending billions to influence and buy elected officials while misleading public opinion with lying, cherry-picking, propaganda campaigns to create a country without a government that governs.
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The notion of Horatio Alger is an out of reach ideal for lots of young people of color. Systemic poverty puts many young people of all colors at a distinct disadvantage in a world that operates on wealth and access. These young people have neither, and they have little hope of escaping poverty without outside help. I know this from having worked with poor ELLs for so many years. Students where I worked were fortunate to have a community that went the extra mile for them including helping to fill out applications, paying application fees and guiding students to access financial aid and scholarships.
On NPR this morning the host mentioned that 40% of the admissions at Harvard are taken by legacy admissions and participants of elite sports like rowing, lacrosse, fencing. swimming and dive, none of which are big sports in inner-cities where many of the poor students live.
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FYI- “Data shows that the rise of affirmative action policies in higher education has bolstered diversity on college campuses. In 1965, Black students accounted for roughly 5% of all undergraduates. And between 1965 and 2001, the percentage of Black undergraduates doubled. ” https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/jun/22/what-is-affirmative-action-supreme-court-explainer
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One humorous part of the suit that resulted in the affirmative reaction(ary) ruling by the Extremes is that Harvard was forced during discovery to reveal the considerable extent of its completely separate and much less competitive (essentially shoein) legacy admissions program.
People had known before that such a program existed but had no concrete data about just how extensive it was.
If Harvard were not receiving Federal money (over half a billion in grants to professors every year though grants from NSF, NIH,etc,) it would be fine for them to have such a program.
But we the taxpayers should certainly not be underwriting it, particularly when Harvard has an endowment of nearly $50 billion.
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You make a good point. Congress could effectively ban legacy preferences through its power of the purse. Hopefully the schools themselves do the right thing and abandon legacy preferences on their own.
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It’s happening.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/07/03/harvard-university-legacy-admissions-civil-rights-complaint/
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The notion of Horatio Alger is an out of reach ideal for lots of young people of color.
Exactly. That’s mythology promulgated by the white ruling class minority to justify its continued rapaciousness.
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Horatio Alger” is just the most famous in a long line of self help stories that continue to be written every year.
If the writers of these stories know so much about making money through skill, talent,intelligence and hard work, why do they themselves resort to making all their money through bullshit stories?
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exactly
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Thank you. All myths like this do is perpetuate neglect because one or two kids over the course of a few decades succeed wildly. Kind of like the one in which slavery was obviously bad, but we’re going to ignore the history after it because the world was colorblind and whoever failed or was oppressed just didn’t have enough gumption to understand what it meant to make it all on one’s own.
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THE SUPREMES [In black robes, with Mickey Mouse Club-style ultra-perky voices]:
AMY: Hey, guys! Guess what?
BRETT: Everything’s all good now.
SAMMY: Sure, there might have been some baaaad old racism way, way back in the Olden Times,
NEIL: but along came that great Republican HONEST ABE, and POOF, it vanished in a white minute!
CLARENCE: And now, we don’t see bad old color anymore, do we?
AMY: So please join us in a chorus of “Everything Is Beautiful!”
[SUPREMES join in chorus line to dance and sing the song; last verse louder and at slower tempo, with high kicks on the downbeats revealing the fishnets and garters beneath those robes]
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Your scenario prompted a memory of Friedrich Dürrenmatt’s play An Angel Comes to Babylon, in which human order is upended by the appearance of an angel, when one of the characters honestly assesses the situation:
“A state’s healthy authority is only possible if earth remains earth and heaven remains heaven, in which the earth presents a reality shaped by politicians and heaven is a quaint theory of theologians about which no one needs to be the wiser. But if heaven becomes a reality, as it does now with the appearance of an angel, then human order breaks down, because in the face of a visible heaven, the state is necessarily seen as a farce. And here we have the result of this cosmic mess: a people who rise up against us.”
Our society values rote membership of a formal religion over living by a system of ethics, responsibility and improvement for the next generations. It values lies — or is willing to ignore and distort them — over frustrating science that may go against baseless assumptions.
Here is a good example in a recent interview a libertarian does with Richard Dawkins looking back on Covid. Note the language of the interviewer who has a distinct idea of what he wants Dawkins to say using words and phrases like “overpromised,” “surprised you’re not more critical,” “damage could have been less,” and “faith.” Note how Dawkins always brings the discussion back to the real world as it existed in real time with “imagine what would have happened,” a lack of societal “altruism,” and how he lets science and experience guide him, not ideology and preset ideas.
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So great to see his utter rejection of the BS framing of the question. I would not have been as polite as Dawkins (who is not known for his politeness) was.
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I disagree with Dawkins about the expression of uncertainty issue. I understand his point about the hard place scientists are placed in when they are confronted with binary choices, but I don’t think its ever wise or productive for scientists to express more certainty than is warranted and if they don’t know, they always should simply say “we don’t know”.
This can be and often is used (eg by climate change deniers) against the scientists , but that just means thats no excuse for expressing overconfidence . Estimating and reporting the level uncertainty of results is really the kEY factor that distinguishes scientists from pseudo scientists (economists like Emily Oster) who often express more certainty than is warranted by the data)
I think it was particularly bad/damaging for some scientists to be making claims (eg, that the vaccines prevented Covid contraction) when the evidence (eg, from studies done in Israel) actually indicated otherwise.
I also think the whole “glory of science” issue is misguided.
Glorification of things is very much a religious pursuit.
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I as well. But the point was that he stood up for scientific thinking.
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Estimating and reporting the level uncertainty of results is really the kEY factor that distinguishes scientists from pseudo scientists (economists like Emily Oster)
Well said, SD!!!
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There are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents and only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!
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GOP opposition to Affirmative Action is actually a part of GOP attempts at minority rule and the sequestering of profits in the hands of the few. The real power of the GOP is colorblind, except that it feels positive about the color of money (silver, gold, and green are preferred). If Affirmative Action would cause money to flow into the pockets of a Koch or a Trump, you can bet it would be the toast of the conservative media.
Gradually, conservative causes are winning. Despite the popular support for women’s reproductive rights, they have been taken away. Now Affirmative Action is gone by judicial fiat. With every win, conservatives are forced to hunt other issues that can be used to divide and conquer. But with every win, their silent opposition is stirred. During the mid-term elections, the Red wave was a small ripple in a turbulent pool. With the president on the ticket in the 2024 election, people who stood on the sidelines before will be going to the polls. They will be thinking about the Supreme Court. They will be thinking about someone they know who was negatively affected by one or another of the recent actions.
Will the Democrats be able to capitalize on this in 2024? It is hard to say.
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I honestly think it’s simpler than that. Blacks have been the easiest “other” to identify from the beginning of history and will remain so for partisan political purposes. The existence of the cult is predicated on identifying “others” as scapegoats. It’s been codified repeatedly since 1876…right up to this week and beyond.
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The six hard-right Justices are on a mission to roll back civil rights law , to curb the power of government to right wrongs,”
That’s it in a nutshell.
The rest is all misdirection, which includes arguments about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equal protection and even thd latter part of the above sentence:
“and you encourage the emergence of a society in which people pull themselves up by their bootstraps without relying on government”
The latter is just a bullshit claim made by the Extremist Six to justify that efforts to curb civil rights. They don’t believe any of it.
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Hilariously, the Extremist Six were pulled up by tax payer bootstraps.
We the public have underwritten so called “private” universities like Harvard and Yale where these folks were trained (educated is an entirely inaccurate term) to the tune of trillions of dollars over the decades.
Make no mistake: we pulled folks like Roberts,Thomas, Special K, Gorsuch, etc up. The claim that they did it by themselves is just a lie.
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To the tune of billions over the decades
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Special K. ROFLMSAO!
(The S is for Sweet.)
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They don’t believe any of it.
Nailed it there, Mr. Pecker.
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That’s what gets me more than anything else.
People get into these endless debates about the minutia of these cases (equal protection, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, legal standing and all the rest) but it is all based on the assumption that folks like the Extremist Six are sincere in their arguments and rulings.
But it’s all bullshit.
And the reality is that one can make a legal argument in support of pretty much any ruling simply by cherry picking, which is the bread and butter of lawyers everywhere.
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You cut the Gordian knot on this one, SomeDAM!
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This Supreme court is simply illegitimate.
And Roberts is more aware of that than anyone, which is why he keeps making public statements to convince the public otherwise.
His greatest fear is that the public will catch on to the ruse because would completely emasculate him and the rest of his other power drunken colleagues.
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The Suprenes must be drunk with power knowing that they can overturn any precedent, rewrite the nation’s laws. And no one can stop them
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Not incidentally, we know from their actions and actions of their wives in some cases (accepting favors and gifts (eg, fishing trips) from those with interests in Supreme Court rulings ) that the extremist justasses are not sincere.
And we know Roberts is not sincere because he has done nothing to reign in his colleagues (or even his own wife).
And true to his Hawvid pedigree,Roberts has refused to even testify to the Senate about the conflicts of interest and other “ethical lapses” effectively arguing “screw you and screw the public who elected you. We answer to no one”
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And with regard to the supposed investigation into who leaked the preliminary ruling overturning Roe.
It’s very telling (convenient) that none of the justices were asked about the leak under oath.
It’s almost as if Roberts did not want to be sure “who done it”
And are we really supposed to believe that John Roberts has no inkling who was behind the leak and for what purpose?
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They knew this one would be explosive, so they gave it a trial run before release.
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My guess is that Roberts has a very good idea (even if he is not certain) but won’t say anything because he knows it was one of his colleagues on the Misogynist Majority (TM) and that would simply act to further undermine public faith in the Court, which id currently swirling down the toilet.
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I tend to agree the Court wouldn’t have upheld affirmative action if it were predicated on reparations for American descendants of slavery. But it would have been very interesting to see what affirmative action policy would have looked like if it were based on that interest. It would have looked less ridiculous, for sure. You wouldn’t have the children of an Afrikaner and a white Brazilian getting an affirmative action bump to offset mediocre test scores.
Something that a lot of people are overlooking in this discussion is that admissions schemes that are race-neutral on their face are not necessary race-neutral. For example, I’ve seen a lot of talk about how Texas’s “top 7%” model is something that can be used to replace affirmative action as practiced at most other universities because it is purportedly race neutral. But while the Texas model is facially race neutral, it is not actually race neutral: it was devised specifically as a way to increase the number of black and Latino students and reduce the number of white and Asian students at UT. Justice Ginsburg herself recognized this—in her opinion in the Fischer case, she said you’d have to be an ostrich to believe the Texas model was “race-neutral.”
What this means, I think, is that within a couple years, someone will sue to challenge the constitutionality of the Texas model. And I think they’ll have a good shot at winning.
So, too, will there be lawsuits at universities that use personal statements as a way to engineer racial balancing. It will be very difficult for universities to do that without creating a paper trail that shows that they are using “adversity” as a proxy for race.
I’ve said that I think this decision was a good one. I still believe that, although I’m sure I’m the only one here who does. But it is a real shame how it appears the personal statement—the stupidest, most bullshit-filled part of the application process, with essays written and/or edited by parents, teachers, paid consultants—is now likely going to be even more elevated.
Anyway, here’s a different New Yorker article about the decision.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/why-the-champions-of-affirmative-action-had-to-leave-asian-americans-behind
Asian Americans, the group whom the suit was supposedly about, have been oddly absent from the conversations that have followed the ruling. The repetitiveness of the affirmative-action debate has come about, in large part, because both the courts and the media have mostly ignored the Asian American plaintiffs and chosen, instead, to relitigate the same arguments about merit, white supremacy, and privilege. During the five years I spent covering this case, the commentators defending affirmative action almost never disproved the central claim that discrimination was taking place against Asian Americans, even as they dismissed the plaintiffs as pawns who had been duped by a conservative legal activist. They almost always redirected the conversation to something else—often legacy admissions.
The deflections were understandable. The evidence the plaintiffs had amassed that Harvard, in particular, discriminated against Asian applicants through a bizarre and unacceptable “personal rating” system is overwhelming. These facts, and, more important, the conservative composition of the Supreme Court, placed the defenders of affirmative action in a bit of a discursive and legal corner. If you acknowledged that Harvard was, in fact, engaging in behavior that by any reasonable standard would be considered discriminatory and rooted in harmful stereotypes, it was nearly impossible to then turn around and say that the university should have the right to conduct its admissions in whatever manner it pleased. Why would anyone trust Harvard to do anything?
An air of inevitability also hung over the Court’s decision, which mostly made the specific claims of the plaintiffs irrelevant. The end of affirmative action really started in 1978, with Justice Lewis F. Powell, Jr.,’s opinion in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke—the first Supreme Court case on the matter—which tried to split the difference between a divided Court by arguing that the race of a candidate could be considered, but not as part of a reparative, quota-based program that tried to reduce the harms of slavery and injustice. Rather, race could only be considered by an admissions office that wanted, for the benefit of itself and its students, to produce a “diverse” student body.
Affirmative action, in my view, was doomed from that moment forward because it had been stripped of its moral force. It is one thing to argue that slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, mass incarceration, and centuries of theft demand an educational system that factors in the effects of those atrocities. If that principle were to express itself in, say, a Black student who was descended from slaves and had grown up in poverty in an American inner city receiving a bump on his application when compared with a rich private-school kid from the suburbs, so be it. But that is not, in fact, how affirmative action usually plays out at élite schools. Most reporting on the subject—including my own, as well as a story in the Harvard Crimson—shows that descendants of slaves are relatively underrepresented among Black students at Harvard, compared with students from upwardly mobile Black immigrant families. It is easy and perhaps virtuous to defend the reparative version of affirmative action; it is harder to defend the system as it has actually been used.
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chosen, instead, to relitigate the same arguments about merit, white supremacy, and privilege.
Not so. I have presented an argument based on redressing harm done to blacks by our government. Read that report.
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Robert’s Ruse of Order
Robert’s Ruse is a framework that
is comprised of a set of codes and
ruses that conditions groups to
believe, their understanding of the
word clouds, established by the PTB,
has an impact on how the PTB should
hobble itself.
The proof of a ruse, is revealed
in the results.
The next time you hear a “ruser”,
blow the democracy dog whistle,
ask ’em who do they think they
are working for…
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Roberts’ Ruse of Order”
Ha ha ha ha
Roberts’ Ruse of Ordure also works
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Roberts’s Ruse of Order
Roberts’ Ruse of Order
Rules the current Court
Sauron down in Mordor
Shelob and the Warg
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This is how the Court deals with the controversies surrounding their gift vacations from billionaires with interests, by piling on the insanity. It’s the Runaway Court.
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Roberts worries about the reputation of the court.
Talk about a ship that has sailed!!!!
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I think that it is important to realize that out of the almost 4,000 post secondary degree granting institutions in the US, about 200 practice affirmative action in admissions. This court decision will not impact the truly diverse institutions, only the rejectionist ones. The statement by Arizona State University is important:
The U.S. Supreme Court’s decisions in Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President & Fellows of Harvard and Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. University of North Carolina will have no impact on the diversity of the Arizona State University student body or ASU’s commitment to having a student body which reflects the population of the State of Arizona. Because ASU admits all students who meet the university’s admission requirements and does not artificially cap enrollment for students from Arizona, ASU will continue to have one of the most diverse student bodies in the country.
Since Fall 2013:
• Total enrollment at ASU grew by 85.8% (from 76,728 to 142,616 students).
• Enrollment of American Indian/Alaska Native students increased by 33.3%.
• Enrollment of Asian students increased by 122.5%.
• Enrollment of African American/Black students increased by 118.9%.
• Enrollment of Hispanic/Latino students increased by 129.1%.
• Enrollment of Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander students increased by 83.3%.
• Enrollment of students identifying as two or more races increased by 151.7%.
• Enrollment of white students increased by 51.4%.
• Enrollment of international students increased by 82.2%.
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In my first reaction to the affirmative action decision, I pointed out that most institutions of higher education accept all applicants. Among the elite institutions, diversity is valued, and they will continue to recruit students of color by other means.
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I hope the folks here support non rejectionist institutions like Arizona State both rhetorically and with monetary contributions. No “elite” institution has nearly the impact of universities like Arizona State. Folks might want to look at this: https://www.ted.com/talks/cecilia_m_orphan_what_makes_a_good_college_and_why_it_matters/c
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