Steve teaches in Polk County, Florida. He left a comment about where to find a wealth of choices: in public school. Choice advocates claim that public schools are one-size-fits-all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Charter schools and voucher schools are one-size-fits-all. They may exclude students they don’t want, for any reason. They may have a religious core that appeals to one-size. Home-schooling? You can’t get any more one-size-fits-all than learning at home. If you want indoctrination, go to a religious school; if you want education, go to a public school.
Do you want choices? Go to a public school!
Steve writes:
You want choice? Here, in the seventh largest school district in the state, you can choose AP, college-dual enrollment, Cambridge, ACCEL or International Baccalaureate for academics.
You can enter a career academy for aeronautics, health fields, architecture, criminal justice, education, culinary, graphics, CAD/CAM, engineering, legal studies, design, veterinary science, finance, biotechnology, construction. and others.
There are outstanding fine arts programs, with graduates going on to Broadway, television, and the tourism entertainment industry.
Play sports? The state lets you transfer to any school you want. You could join the state champion football team or state champion girls basketball team.
Want something hands on, such as, diesel mechanic, HVAC, auto repair, IT, or welding? Two public vo-tech high schools offer those programs.
All this choice is available in the public system.
So, the issue isn’t choice at all. This is about what vouchers have always been about since the days of massive resistance in Virginia.
Segregation?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
It’s great if you have the ability to attend a comprehensive traditional public high school that offers all of these options – most high schools don’t, so many families go elsewhere. Not to speak of the unsafe environments in many schools. As frequent commenter Bob S. recently wrote on this blog, it’s a zoo out there, and student behavior is too often terrible, even violent.
The Gates-inspired small schools don’t offer advanced courses or electives because they don’t have enough students or teachers. So the students gets a choice to go to the High School of the Violin or the High School of Leadership, but once there has no curricular choices.
Do students in small public schools in small districts in Florida have advanced courses and electives?
“Not to speak of the unsafe environments in many schools.”
Should I assume that you haven’t been in a public school recently?
In spite of the loud noise made when a school shooting occurs (which are anomalies, aberrations) , the vast majority of schools are the safest environment one can find for one’s children. Even safer than one’s home. I didn’t ever feel not safe in teaching in public schools nor did I ever worry about my own children in public schools.
May I suggest you stick around and learn a little from those who comment here, who have been/are educators, parents, and/or otherwise interested in public education.
Take up your argument with Bob Shepherd.
I’m not addressing him, I’m addressing you. You stated “Not to speak of the unsafe environments in many schools.” Should I assume that you spent much time in a public school recently?
As it is, it appears you have no clue as to what goes on in the vast majority of American public schools.
Two bits says Ms. Regina won’t be back. Surprise me, eh!
Don’t send your kids to public schools if that’s your opinion of them. Just don’t expect public tax dollars to pay for your personal choices.
Are you serious? Even if the public school IS one of the few that is mismanaged by incompetent adults?
And what will you say if (when?) the right wing nuts take your public school? Will you pay your taxes, send your kids to people who intend to brainwash them, and just grin and bear it?
Mark, this is the answer for anyone who disparages our public schools and their certified teachers. She wants school “choice”? She should have it, but not at the expense of our public education tax dollars. 90% of kids attend public schools. Regina’s one ot the 10%. Buh bye.
You did not answer my question, you just repeated the same old “answer for anyone” as you put it. The schools and staffs know best; any shortcomings or problems are the fault of students or parents. I agree that’s usually the case, but I’m asking about the others, no matter how few in number.
Did you watch the Florida video posted by “retired teacher”?
What do you think about the situation in Florida, with a governor like desantis, a majority of lackeys in state government, the school librarian who wants to remove over 100 books, and schools that have cleared their library shelves just to be safe?
What would you do if this happens in your state, or in your district? How far would they have to go before you’d withdraw your support?
My district with 6,000+ students just elected 2 board members who vowed to put complete library and textbook lists for all 8 schools online–and that’s only for starters. A 3rd member of that ilk did not win election but promises to run again.
Have you considered what might happen next election if desantis or trump are elected and both Houses go Republican? The previous trump administration, Liz Chaney’s loss, and the election fraud scam may be only the beginning! And don’t expect Democratic voters to turn out at the same rate as Republicans–too many Dems can’t be bothered.
You must be new here, Mark.
I’m not sure what your point is, Mark. If you don’t want to send your kids to public school, don’t.
Public schools have been a very important part of our democracy. There is a well-funded, coordinated effort to destroy them. Choose where you want your kids to go, to the schools where they will be best prepared for the society that will live in.
Diane, To put it as simply as possible, I am interested in the real world of education that exists between the ideal conceptions of public schools and charters.
I went to public schools and had great teachers and opportunities. A few of us were also physically bullied frequently, and the school’s response was “You have to learn to take it.”
My children went to public schools and had great teachers and opportunities. However, a high school principal refused to move my son (his choice, not mine) ahead in math one year, UNTIL I read him school policy and state law regarding the “acceleration of capable students”.
I was an arts teacher in public schools for 20 years, and witnessed students occasionally kept out of arts classes and recess to make up work for other teachers.
I also witnessed many capable students denied “gifted & talented” classes for various lame reasons, and entire schools cheated out of 2 or more weeks of school and thousands of dollars each year because of politically and commercially motivated tests.
Diane, I know you are aware of the testing problem because you have commented on it many times and written a book explaining why you changed your mind on that issue. So why are you ignoring other shortcomings in our public schools?
Is it because every student is affected by testing but only a relatively few are bullied or denied access to classes they qualify for? Is it because you see the attack on public education as more important than any other issue?
We are a large, diverse nation with thousands of schools, and millions of students, parents, and teachers. Then there are all the legislators and school board members and their various priorities (honest and dishonest).
I find this variety and these interactions fascinating, and wonder why so many people here seem to be offended or threatened by any post that doesn’t completely support public schools and completely condemn charter schools.
Diane, a few months ago you answered one of my posts with a phrase like “Most charters schools…” I don’t recall my particular comment, but I remember thinking it was odd that you would discourage discussion about the charters that were NOT like “most” charters.
This is your blog, and if you don’t want any critical comments about public school failures or charter school successes, nor any discussion of who has a right to public funding and under what circumstances, then you should post that clearly at the top of each page.
I was taught that the “great ideas” (embodied in the “great books”) are “great” because they are universal, with no easy answers.
There are no universal answers. You do the best you can to raise your children. Are all public schools perfect? Of course not. Is it fair to divide public money into multiple pots—public, charter, vouchers, online charters, homeschools? I don’t think it makes sense. It is politically correct these days to say that parents know best what their children need. I don’t agree. The private sector has many second-rate and third/rate schools. Public money will not pay for elite private schools. For many years, I supported charters, but as I saw the charter lobbyists push for no regulation of accountability, I concluded this route was going to
Weaken public schools without providing superior alternatives.
P.S. Diane, you say, “There is a well-funded, coordinated effort to destroy them [public schools].”
Yes indeed, and I ask: Why do public schools and their supporters sometimes enable this attack by not correcting or accommodating what are often simple problems or requests?
The people behind the Destroy Public Education movement do not have problems. They are paid by the likes of DeVos, Walton and Koch to manufacture grievances. Is “critical race theory” a real problem? No. Are teachers perverts? No. Is anyone grooming students to be gay or trans? No.
Diane, you wrote: “There are no universal answers.” I agree, but we should still be pursuing improvements in each situation.
“Are all public schools perfect? Of course not…the private sector has many second- and third-rate schools.” I agree, but sometimes a family leaves for an inferior charter because the public school won’t make a simple accommodation.
“Is it fair to divide public money into multiple pots… I don’t think it makes sense.” Maybe not; VERY difficult. As you know, The NY Campaign for Fiscal Equity won a lawsuit to establish equity of financing between well-to-do suburban school districts and those in poorer cities and rural areas. But it took more than 10 yrs to reach the decision, and now another 10+ years has gone by and it STILL has not been enacted.
“It is politically correct these days to say that parents know best what their children need. I don’t agree.” In my opinion, it depends! I am NOT in favor of schools caving in to unreasonable demands that aren’t based on sound educational practice. But many requests cost little or nothing to meet. We can’t find another way for a student to make up work than during art class? Can’t stop one child from bullying another?
“Public money will not pay for elite private schools…” And shouldn’t.
“I saw the charter lobbyists push for no regulation of accountability” All schools should be so regulated, but it should not depend only on a few test scores.
Great read a must share !!!
This is an AD Campaign. Seriously. Turn their evil/cash cow/anti-democracy rhetoric right back on them. Don’t just argue with these Hungry Ghosts.
Professionally advertise and Brag About the Public School Advantage.
Reverse engineer sabotage attempts like the Waiting For Superman documentary.
Public Schools are treasure troves of “outstanding fine programs.”
Social media offers free platforms for bragging rights.
Great point, Kathy!
Good points, Steve.
And, my children went to a small, rural public school.
We had an excellent speech and debate program in the high school, among other opportunities. The kids traveled all around the country, competing.
Sure, there are some definite advantages to big schools. But it doesn’t mean small, public schools can’t offer a great education.
I had a lot fewer discipline problems working in a small school than a bigger district. Students knew me and if they didn’t, word of mouth from their older siblings and/or parents helped.
Sure, my choices (schools, hospitals, shopping) are somewhat limited living out in the country. But there is an illusion of choice in our nation. I go into the supermarket and I can’t even begin to fathom the range of choices I have in toothpaste, cat food, etc….etc….
Meanwhile, all sorts of “choices” are being made for me (political, esp) many of which I don’t like.
Choice is too often a ‘bait and switch” proposition these days.
Keep up the great work, Steve.
Public schools have always offered many more choices, particularly in densely populated areas, than private educational options. Gates and other assorted smug billionaires have been spinning lies about public education for decades. Even worse, Gates and some other wealthy folks have used their weaponized wealth to buy their way into education policy in this country while spreading false narratives about the schools that offer by far the most value in relation to their cost. No other schools can duplicate the access, equity opportunity on a grand scale that legitimate, decently funded public schools provide.
Public schools serve all students and the nation with a mission of academic, civil and social benefits. Sure, there is room for improvement, particularly today, when deform has been chiseling away at the funding with incomprehensible recklessness for at least two decades. People in this country should understand there is not a shred of evidence that supports the merits of continuous testing, privatization of education, ever expanding technology in the classroom and a host of other falsehoods deform has inflicted on public education. Decisions about education should be in the hands of educators, not billionaires and complicit politicians. So-called reform is a big lie from the 1% that bribe politicians to keep the unfounded attacks and propaganda against public education coming.
This country must stop taking public education for granted. It is one of the most important elements in a free society, and it has contributed a great deal to building this nation. Instead, people in this country need to step up a defend their right to a wholly public system that operates free from political and corporate interests. What is in the best interests of young people and society should be the primary goals instead of serving the special interests of a few at the expense of many.
BTW, if you have about twenty-five minutes, you should watch John Oliver’s accurate lampooning of Ron DeSantis. It is funny, spot-on and entertaining. It’s the second video, not the first.https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-oliver-ron-desantis_n_6405a205e4b0586db70e95f7
1) “people in this country need to step up a defend their right to a wholly public system that operates free from political and corporate interests.”
How do we defend our rights if our public school is compromised FROM WITHIN by the beliefs or personal agenda of a principal, superintendent, or board members?
I experienced physical bullying many years ago in middle and high school, and was told “You just have to learn to take it.”
My son was denied an advanced course he was eligible for (his choice, not mine), When I reminded the principal of board policy and state ed law, he agreed, but told me “Please don’t talk about this; we’ll have too many other students who will want to do this.”
As a teacher since 1999, I have observed that some schools require students to make up work instead of attending music and art classes. Other capable students are denied so-called “gifted and talented” classes because “their grades are too low” or “we don’t have the resources.”
2) “What is in the best interests of young people and society should be the primary goals”.
In one of the districts where I used to work, there is a music and theater K-6 charter school. It was founded 10+ years ago by a music teacher who felt the district was neglecting the arts. No other agenda, she just wanted more arts education than the school board provided, so she did it herself. So who’s the villain here? (P.S.: I attended board meetings where parents requested–unsuccessfully–more arts education.)
“…there is not a shred of evidence that supports the merits of continuous testing, … ever expanding technology in the classroom and a host of other falsehoods deform has inflicted on public education.”
Correct, but those falsehoods ARE being inflicted on and changing public education NOW. Many of our elected state legislators and local school boards embrace these changes, to the detriment of OUR children and communities.
Millions are spent on testing, computers, programs, etc, STEALING MONEY from real curriculum AND TIME from teachers and students. Do the math: (1 wk for testing + partial week for make-ups) x 2 semesters per year = 4 weeks fully or partially wasted.
Yet, when concerned citizens and parents become fed up with the testing and technology, or the bullying or lack of opportunity, etc etc, and decide to advocate for or try something else, people on this site always come up with blanket accusations and stereotypes. EVERY and ANY reader in ANY state or ANY district who examines charter schools or enrolls children therein for ANY reason is anti-democratic, a right-winger, a racist, ignorant, disingenuous, or…on and on.
Does anyone here remember the raft of books in the 1960s–many by public school teachers–critical of public education? And that was before “test and punish”!
Does everyone here think those earlier problems have ALL been corrected?
Does no one here see the DIFFERENCE between the overall success and goodness of our public education system and the FAILURE, NEGLECT, and even ABUSE that happens to SOME individual students?
Does any one here have ANY other solution or consideration for those INDIVIDUALS left behind, other than “look at all the GREAT THINGS we do for MOST students?
Thank you for the link to that great video of John Oliver talking about desantis. Unbelievable?…..alas no, it’s not. These traitors from the extreme right are not satisfied with their own fake charter “schools”, they are already–NOW–working to destroy public schools in some places.
At the end of this video, Oliver mentions several specific ways this is happening in Florida: banned books in general, a teacher advocating for the banning of 115 books, schools which have cleared library shelves because they’re not sure which books the state is after, and the specific banning of the penguin adoption book “And Tango Makes Three”.
If I lived in a district like those mentioned in Florida, I’d be demanding a return of my school taxes and looking to join a malpractice and fraud lawsuit against the state and any collaborators masquerading as educators.
If I had children still in school, I’d be looking for a charter or an alternative school that is ACTUALLY a school–don’t care what you want to call it– and expect for the tax funding per student to follow my children.
Readers, this is happening now and most people here are alarmed but still fighting. What about the future– have you thought about what your limit is? What would cause you to decide that the destruction of public education in your school or district or state has gone too far and the behavior of too many of your representatives, administrators, teachers, and/or neighbors has become criminal?
If you are a parent, what actions and policies would cause you to decide that public education has been stolen despite the best efforts of concerned educators and citizens, that your tax money is only enabling fraud and child abuse, and that it’s time to find a different school–call it whatever name you want?
But of course, it can’t happen here.
Mark,
It can happen here. There is a billionaire-funded Destroy Public Education Movement. I have published three books warning about what was happening. I don’t know if it’s too late. That’s up to the public.
Years ago my district had a superintendent who wanted to cement his legacy by consolidating the elementary schools by eliminating the neighborhood schools. It took months of work by a group of neighborhood minded parents to build a case for maintaining our smaller schools. The superintendent was masterful at presenting a picture of the benefits of consolidation. Disagreement with his plan was suppressed; we had teachers who anonymously kept us up to date because their voices were silenced in the supposed study groups formed in-house. In the end we won and our children still enjoy the benefits of teachers and administrators who actually have the time to get to know all their students. It was incredibly intense work with more than its share of acrimony, but in the end it was clear to the majority of the board that there were obvious benefits to keeping the neighborhood schools that would have been lost forever.
I am recounting this to say that enough people who are willing to stand up and do the work can have a voice. As for individual battles, I have seen them from the outside and I have fought them on occasion for my own children. They were not battles that could or would be fought by a community although they were no less painful for those involved and as a parent of an affected child more painful.
I feel for Mark and his frustration with his district. Sometimes it is a losing battle. I worked in a district I think should be taken over by the state it is so corrupt. Most of the parents are in no position to even try to fight. Many are working multiple jobs and living pay check to pay check. There were/are some very dedicated people working there, but there were/are far too many who were/are involved in political games to benefit themselves and their own egos.
Diane, I was being sarcastic with my last sentence. In my opinion, it IS happening here.
speduktr, I am trying to make three different points in all my comments here. Probably, I have run them together, so here they are in one sentence each–
I completely agree there are many wealthy extreme right wing traitors (that’s the only word in my opinion) hell bent on destroying public schools for their own profit, prestige, and power.
In my own life as student, parent, and teacher, I have observed and experienced many violations of school policy and state law in several public schools. (In your field a common one has been violation of the mandated ratio of sped. students : aides : teacher. One example: students are often unable to attend my class due to a shortage of aides.)
SOME successful charter schools are founded by experienced and competent teachers who want to enact their own vision of education and control their curriculum.
P.S. Darn it, I forgot to put spaces between my three points.
For clarity, my 2nd point begins with the words “In my own life as…”
My 3rd point begins with “SOME successful charter schools…”
The public school district where I taught for thirty years offered a similar buffet of choices at the high school level where the most choices were offered. I started teaching in 1975 and there were choices then mostly at the high school level. By the time I retired in 2005, there were many more choices. The one area where admin and teachers agreed was the choices we offered our students. And that included the choice to learn. There were after school tutor programs. There was a partnership with a local college where students at the high school could take college classes that could be applied to high school graduation and accepted for college later. Those students went to the high school library where a TV was set up in a smaller room linked with that local college. Those classes were remote with the instructor on camera and the students had mikes to ask questions.
My son was able to take an advanced college class during his senior year in high school. His teachers were willing, but I had to quote our high school’s written policy and state law to his principal to make it happen.
“The state lets you transfer to any school you want. You could join the state champion football team or state champion girls basketball team.”
What happens if too many superior athletes transfer in–do local kids suddenly get cut from their team?
What provisions does your district make for kids who want to play football or basketball but aren’t good enough” Are there JV teams? Are there second level JV teams for kids who can’t make the first JV team? If not, don’t talk to me about all your wonderful “choices”.
And what–if anything!– does your district do regarding the hazing that often goes with elite athletic programs?
“You want choice? Here, in the seventh largest school district in the state, you can choose AP, college-dual enrollment, Cambridge, ACCEL or International Baccalaureate for academics.”
Sorry, but I’m not impressed. Instead, tell me what the 7th SMALLEST district in the state offers? Who was it said “What you do for the least of these you do for me”?
(No, I’m an atheist, haven’t been to a church service in 50 yrs. I just put that quote up to make it easy for some of you to dismiss me as a right-wing religious zealot.)
Some school districts offer fantastic public education, and some are really lacking. So, what is wrong with going where the parents want their children to attend? Parents have their own sets of values and morals when those are breached–they will seek a place that respect those values even if the opportunities are not there.
Mark, you have a point.
Parents should choose any school they want. But I don’t see why taxpayers should pay for their private choice. Or why public money should go to schools that exclude children because of their disability, race, religion.
Choose whatever you want but not with my dime. I pay taxes so that all children have a chance to receive a public education. How we allocate those public dollars is already a source of contention and rightly so, but diminishing them by siphoning off monies intended for the general welfare does not correct any shortcomings in the system.
Your last sentence (“public money… to schools that exclude..because of…race”) reminded me of an incident–said to be recurring year after–at one or more of the high-performing public high schools in NYC. Maybe I read it here. In any event, you probably know more of the details, so fill in my recollection–
It was 1-2 years ago, following the annual testing for admission to–maybe–Stuyvesant High, known for math and science. Black and minority parents complained that the percentage of their kids admitted was less than their percentage city-wide and they were being discriminated against, and this had been going on for years.
Some people interviewed by the media (and I at home) wondered why the district couldn’t expand that program and curriculum elsewhere in the district–same total students city-wide, same total classrooms, same total teachers (though math and science teachers are in short supply).
Is this an example of a public school excluding because of race? Can you fill in the details?
Mark,
The answer depends on whether you believe that any public school should have selective admissions.