Where did COVID-19 start? Was there a lab leak in Wuhan in China, where deadly pathogens are studied? Did it originate in an animal market in Wuhan, then jump from animals to humans? Was there a different cause?
NPR explores the debate here.
Federal agencies do not agree. Scientists do not agree.
The story begins:
Since the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic began three years ago, its origin has been a topic of much scientific — and political — debate. Two main theories exist: The virus spilled over from an animal into people, most likely in a market in Wuhan, China, or the virus came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology and spread due to some type of laboratory accident.
The Wall Street Journal added to that debate this week when they reported that the U.S. Department of Energy has shifted its stance on the origin of COVID. It now concludes, with “low confidence,” that the pandemic most likely arose from a laboratory leak in Wuhan, China.
The agency based their conclusion on classified evidence that isn’t available to the public. According to the federal government, “low confidence” means “the information used in the analysis is scant, questionable, fragmented, or that solid analytical conclusions cannot be inferred from the information.”
And at this point, the U.S. intelligence community still has no consensus about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. Four of the eight intelligence agencies lean toward a natural origin for the virus, with “low confidence,” while two of them – the DOE and the Federal Bureau of Information – support a lab origin, with the latter having “moderate confidence” about their conclusion.
But at the end of the day, the origin of the pandemic is also a scientific question. Virologists, who study pandemic origins, are much less divided than the U.S. intelligence community. They say there is “very convincing” data and “overwhelming evidence” pointing to an animal origin.
In particular, scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science in July 2022, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China. Specifically, they conclude that the coronavirus most likely jumped from a caged wild animal into people at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where a huge COVID-19 outbreak began in December 2019.
Virologist Angela Rasmussen, who contributed to one of the Science papers, says the DOE’s “low confident” conclusion doesn’t “negate the affirmative evidence for zoonotic [or animal] origin nor do they add any new information in support of lab origin.”
“Many other [news] outlets are presenting this as new conclusive proof that the lab origin hypothesis is equally as plausible as the zoonotic origin hypothesis,” Rasmussen wrote in an email to NPR, “and that is a misrepresentation of the evidence for either.”
So just what is the scientific evidence that the pandemic began at the seafood market?
Neither of the Science papers provide the smoking gun — that is, an animal infected with the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus at a market.
But they come close. They provide photographic evidence of wild animals such as raccoon dogs and a red fox, which can be infected with and shed SARS-CoV-2, sitting in cages in the market in late 2019. What’s more, the caged animals are shown in or near a stall where scientists found SARS-CoV-2 virus on a number of surfaces, including on cages, carts and machines that process animals after they are slaughtered at the market.
Please open the link to read the rest of the story.
According to National Geographic we have lost a billion acres of rainforest since 1990. Previous corona scares in humans have been attributed to zoonotic transmission with no controversy. The loss of habitat has been attributed to numerous disease outbreaks and are systematically increasing in frequency. Only in this conspiracy laden political cesspool has it even mattered where Covid 19 originated. It simply doesn’t matter where it came from, but what we can do to combat it. As Stephen Colbert so aptly put it this week, “I don’t care where covid came from, I just want to know where it is now.”
That’s exactly right, Paul. The only reason this debate continues is because Trumpers insist that it was purposely, intentionally spread by a lab in Wuhan. Others say it was an accidental leak. Others say it originated in a filthy “wet” market in China. The source became fodder for conspiracy theorists who find dark plots everywhere to explain everything.
Why the Hell would the Department of Energy have an opinion on this and want to share it? Of course its sources of information are of “low confidence” because they are way, way off topic.
Four of the eight intelligence agencies lean toward the conclusion that the virus has a natural origin, all with low confidence. Two agencies—the DOE and the FBI—lean toward a lab leak, one with low confidence (the DOE) and one with moderate confidence (the FBI).
I hope all theories are vigorously pursued, and I’m glad we’re at the point when the “lab leak” theory can no longer automatically dismissed as an insane, racist conspiracy theory.
flerp! I don’t understand why you are always presenting as absolute fact the same false narratives on here that the far right presents as “absolutely true”. You have done that with anti-trans “truths”, with anti-CRT, and now you are doing it with right wing COVID propaganda, as you did when you demonized an Asian-American science writer by misrepresenting a single tweet she made.
I am tired of having to respond to you, but I also feel that it is dangerous to let people like you who present as “certainties” and “fact” the right wing narratives whose only intention is to rile people up and sow more gratuitous division.
Did you even read the NPR story, or was it too restrained for your taste?
The community of people who believe in science and evidence isn’t “partisan” just because one party happens to have rejected science entirely and the other party hasn’t.
Scientists have followed the evidence, and early on when the right wing was presenting as CERTAINTY that this was an intentional, malignant lab leak by China to sow anti-Asian sentiment (without having any evidence to support that), the scientific community was pushing back because THERE WAS NO CERTAINTY THAT THIS WAS A LAB LEAK, and there was more evidence that it was NOT a lab leak than that it was!
And the propagandists like flerp! leave out one very important fact — that despite scientists correctly pointing out the lie of those who were CERTAIN it was a malignant lab leak based on absolutely nothing, those scientists had always been open-minded and CONTINUED TO DO RESEARCH.
In fact, the only reason that new evidence is making the POSSIBILITY of a lab leak more probable – but far from certain – is because the rest of us along with the scientific community believe in being open-minded to new evidence and facts.
Contrary to flerp!’s absolutely blatant lie that “the “lab leak” theory was “automatically dismissed as an insane, racist conspiracy theory” – THAT NEVER HAPPENED.
I repeat – flerp! is completely lying that the scientific community or anyone here ever dismissed the lab leak theory as an “insane racist conspiracy”.
What flerp! seems to be hoping we will believe from his false innuendo is that those who criticized Trump and his followers use of anti-Asian rhetoric like Kung Flu and China Virus as racist, were ALSO demanding that the lab leak theory never be investigated because it was “too racist”. Which is a blatant lie. Because the lab leak theory continued to be investigated. flerp! seems very upset that anyone would have criticized the racist terms used by Trump and others presenting the lab leak theory as a certainty (even though those people spewing racist rhetoric are STILL misinforming the public just as flerp! is doing by pretending that all investigation into that theory was stopped). But I assume that flerp! can’t say that because it would show his own anti-Asian bias. So instead flerp! uses truly nasty innuendo to get us to believe the lie that those who criticized Trump’s racist rhetoric and criticized those people presenting the lab theory AS FACT had rejected that theory and refused to investigate. It’s of course completely false, but it is IMPLIED by the comments of someone here who has trafficked in this kind of nasty innuendo for too long.
The NPR story is informative, and it doesn’t push the false right wing narrative that our resident “concern troll” flerp! does.
flerp! the “concern troll” writes:
“I’m glad we’re at the point when the “lab leak” theory can no longer automatically dismissed as an insane, racist conspiracy theory.”
flerp!, we were at that point from the beginning. Those calling out the insane, racist conspiracy theories of the people who were offering insane racist conspiracy theories never “automatically dismissed” the lab leak theory. They responded to liars on the right who were offering as CERTAINTIES the insane racist conspiracy theories that did not bother flerp! so he apparently does not understand why scientists would want to correct those insane racist theories when there was no evidence they were likely to be true.
If flerp! doesn’t think using terms like “Kung Flu” is racist, I wished he’d just own it. But it is unconscionable for flerp! to lie about those who rejected the RACIST view of covid spewed by right wing racists, and falsely claim as flerp! does that criticizing those offering racist theories is the same as “automatically dismissing” the possibility of a lab leak as an “insane, racist, conspiracy theory”. That is a lie. And pushing those kind of completely false right wing innuendoes is something flerp! does all the time here. I hope it stops, but I won’t hold my breath.
I expect some nasty short reply belittling me because flerp! never can defend the innuendo he wants us to believe when he is called to do so.
The lab leak theory wasn’t rejected. But those promoting the lab leak theory as a certainty to sow RACIST conspiracy theories were rejected. I assume flerp! knows the difference and just doesn’t care.
The DOE, through the National Laboratories, sponsors a vast array of scientific research. They were very involved in COVID-19 mitigation research coordinating with private industry and academia, in particular advanced epidemiological and molecular computer modeling.
Well that’s it, you been reading my Facebook Posts (LOL)
Some of the best evidence that it crossed over to Humans at the market was delivered by the Energy Dept . They leaked the story to the Wall Street Journal.
In case it is behind a pay wall:.
“conspiracies require people to keep highly charged secrets, often in the face of enormous pressures to talk. Journalists should know how hard it is to keep people from blabbing. Our whole business is predicated on people’s inability to keep their mouths shut. Conspiracies also require conspirators to be hyper-competent and diligent in carrying out their schemes so as not to leave evidence of their machinations. Here in the real world, we can’t even keep high-level officials from falling for phishing scams. ”
“The underlying assumption seems to be that if an intelligence agency asserts something, it can’t possibly be a conspiracy theory. This reasoning is highly questionable. It should come as no surprise that the people we hire to suss out conspiracies can be sympathetic to conspiratorial explanations. ”
And then the author goes into those conspiracies one at a time.
https://www.alternet.org/alternet-exclusives/a-lab-cant-leak/
Does it really matter at this point to assign blame? We have to deal with Covid either way. After Trump called Covid “The Chinese Virus,” many Asians including the elderly were attacked in the streets for simply being Asian. This is the result of right wing racist politics.
If a virus leaks from a laboratory and the leak is covered up while the virus goes on to kill millions of people and cause massive global economic distribution (which itself causes huge increases in starvation deaths)—yes, that actually is a really big deal.
Even if the virus leaked from a lab, we have no control over what the Chinese do about it. All we can do is make a lot of noise about it. However, if it incites another round of attacks on innocent Asian Americans, it is a huge divisive and dangerous problem for the Asian community in this country.
Was the Labs safety protocols inferior to Labs in other Countries?
Not according to foriegn Scientists who actually worked there .
Was there evidence of a weapons program ?
Although hinted to by the Political proponents of the Lab Leak theory . Every intelligence agency maintains there is no evidence of that .
Was there evidence of gain of function manipulation of the virus., The Scientific Community rules that out after examining the virus .
Somehow a 3rd grader sitting 3 or 6 feet away wearing daddies old underwear for a face mask . Is relatively safe from transmitting Covid to Grandma . Or a passenger on the MTA we are told is safe wearing a mask and washing his hands. Yet a Scientist in a moon-suit bathed in Formaldehyde mist on the way out of a containment ,spread the virus 8 miles away to the Market. Doing so without infecting anyone at home or in the vicinity of the Lab.
The scientific papers referred to in the Article, trace the origins using the genetic evolution of the virus as well as contact tracing data on early infections.
But 3 years later there is no paper submitted for peer review that disputes their evidence . Till there is, the Lab leak is a conspiracy theory .
Ten years after the SARS epidemic the Scientific Community still could not agree on which animal the virus crossed from . Yet within weeks the Lab Leak conspirators insisted that the absence of a link was evidence of a conspiracy.
Joel, I can’t follow what your point is.
FLERP!
I would not expect you to. Try following science for a change.
Ah, random retiree guy online pronounces the lab leak theory a conspiracy with “high confidence.” Exhorts other guy online to “follow the science.” Got it.
FLERP!
Produce a paper published for peer review by Viral Geneticists , that traces the virus back to the Lab . When you can get back to us.
As for China’s behavior I believe with some good cause they are following the advice of the ACLU .
Figure that one out its way over your head .
There is no amount of transparency they could have displayed that would have satisfied the China bashers and the Right. Not that the Chinese were ever inclined to do so.
But if you are going to assert that something is true the burden of proof is on the accuser.
flerp!
How is the leak “COVERED UP” when it is being investigated?
Show me proof that the possibility of a lab leak STOPPED being investigated.
You are making the most outrageously dishonest claim that the “best” way to do a full investigation of the lab leak theory is to start with a powerful country claiming that China intentionally released a malignant virus on the world.
If flerp! wasn’t just a “concern troller” claiming to care about how a lab leak can kill millions, he would actually state the obvious — that having a powerful president and his followers spewing racist rhetoric about some malignant intentional lab leak by China BEFORE ANY EVIDENCE HAS BEEN GATHERED TO SUPPORT IT is counterproductive and makes things worse.
Evidence kept being gathered. But if you think that the way to get cooperation is to use racist rhetoric directed at the country, you probably are lying. The ONLY reason to do that is to politicize the issue for partisan gain because YOU DON’T CARE about stopping pandemics in the future.
Joel, once again, I can’t follow what you’re saying. If it helps, I’m not asserting that the virus came from a lab. I’ve expressed two views here and each should be utterly uncontroversial among reasonable people. First, I said I think it would be a significant matter if it turned out that the virus originated in a lab and that leak had been covered up. You apparently disagree with that. Second, I think it is not clear whether the virus originated from a lab or in a wet market or elsewhere. You apparently disagree with that. You suggest I’m stupid, but on the other hand you’re a bit of a crackpot, you have trouble writing a coherent paragraph or properly punctuating a sentence, and apparently you can barely operate a computer. So you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take your word on what the most likely origin of the virus is.
You are accusing the scientific community of a cover-up regarding the lab theory. Own your own innuendo.
And at least profess a little concern about how it was absolutely wrong for Trump and his followers to spew racist conspiracy theories as if they were certainties when they had no evidence except their strong desire to make China a scapegoat to support it.
That is far more dangerous to stopping future lab leaks than what actually happened! Which you are still lying about by not even acknowledging that we have more information now because the lab leak theory continued to be investigated!
Just because your own implicit racism means that you didn’t notice any racism when folks promoting the lab leak theory as a CERTAINTY used terms like Kung Flu, which apparently didn’t bother you, doesn’t mean there isn’t racism. You aren’t the arbiter. Asian-American folks knew it was racist.
And criticizing a racist theory as racist was the right thing to do. You can disagree, but don’t falsely claim that those who criticized the racist part “rejected” the lab leak theory. The proof that you lie is that we know more now because they didn’t reject the lab leak theory. They rejected the RACIST version of it as a certainty. Your sympathy for those promoting the racist theory, and your false smears about those to tried to shut down the racist theories while they STILL investigated the lab leak theory speaks for itself.
FLERP!
The ad hominem attacks and the gas lighting aside: when one questions the health science and scientific consensus on every issue from mask wearing, social distancing, the safety & efficacy of vaccines,and vaccine policy; that is a bit more than healthy skepticism. You are actually advocating positions that you either know are questionable or false and are simply not willing to own up to.
As for your stupidity, you are the one who answered a comment with “I don’t follow” . Well you demonstrated you do follow very well . So follow this; you are not taking my word. You are refusing to accept that the scientific consensus is that the virus originated naturally from an animal transmission. That is also the consensus of the intelligence community.
Further you said:
” I said I think it would be a significant matter if it turned out that the virus originated in a lab and that leak had been covered up.”
I think it would be a significant matter if your brains turned out to be located in a different part of your anatomy. But with out any proof of that, I will not make that assertion.
Between 1999 and 2008, I visited China with my family about ten times and I’ve been inside those open air, live-animal, meat markets that were in the heart of Shanghai back then. Later, the local CCP government would move those markets to the suburbs away from the heart of the city.
The animals and birds were in cages. The live fish were in portable water tanks or plastic kiddie pools. The buyer picks the live meat they want, and it’s butchered right there in front of the buyer.
There were also food stalls. This open air, living meat market surrounded by modern skyscrapers was a few blocks from Anchee’s parents flat in the French quarter.
I went every morning to have breakfast at one of those food stalls. Since I’m a vegan, I went to the fresh soymilk and tofu milk/soup stall. They also had dried, shredded meat and other condiments that could be added to our hot soymilk, tofu breakfast. Fresh, hot soymilk made the night before is nothing like the pasteurized soymilk in the US. Totally different taste that I sort of got addicted to and miss here.
There is a conflation of incidents, an ignoring of what it was actually like to live at that time (making revisionism too easy), critics’ inability to admit they really don’t understand the science of this one bit, and a definite strategy to deflect all criticism to another “other.” The demonization of Asians is a separate issue from the science and whatever mistakes may have been made in some geographic place. Conflating them exposes the motives of those who used this line of fallacious reasoning. Mistakes. Not intentional. And when a nut says “gain of function,” don’t let them go on until they can explain it in normal, intelligible language. The conversation will end there.
Thinking that the government is up to something doesn’t make a person “a nut.” It makes them cautious and thoughtful. I happen to think it’s much smarter to NOT blindly trust the government than it is to trust them – especially when it has become quite clear that neither side is working in our interests.
Btw – gain of function is manipulating and/or enhancing the genetic makeup of a virus so that it becomes more virulent, transmissible, or deadly.
My issue with the entire COVID scenario is that there is ONE accepted narrative – and if you do not accept that as gospel and adhere to it and spew it forth from thy mouth – you are wrong, you are a “a nut,” you are a psychopath (lol), you are dangerous, you need to be locked up, you may be fired/ lose your job, you’ll be ostracized, your family may disown you, etc.
Y’all know exactly what I’m talking about. Since when is having a different opinion completely shut down? Since when are people who want freedom treated like idiots and lepers? Since when do we behave like this towards our fellow human beings?
It is time for ALL OF US TO STOP acting like children and START speaking like adults again.
If we don’t — we are very quickly going to lose our country. Cuz we all need to cooperate — yes, even “the nuts,” to fight all the crap that the far right, and some of the democrats, are up to.
In case you hadn’t noticed….. I’m not a nut. However. I also don’t trust the government.
Having worked in the federal government during the administration of George HW Bush, I tend to trust the government because I know that the vast majority of civil servants are non-political. They serve out their careers honorably, without partisan interest or motive. A small fraction are partisans who were “embedded” by prior administrations.
That said, I don’t trust politicians. Too many are ignorant, even stupid. They pass laws without reading them. They follow the party line, as developed by monied interests. They vote against the interests of their constituents, e.g. trying to cut Social Security and Medicare.
They mess up education by passing absurd laws like NCLB, because they believe in magic.
You are very much a nut. Unless you have a PhD in a biology-related field. Which I somehow doubt, based on the diatribe. High school science Cs from decades ago not a qualification! You’re new here. Probably brought here by some lie on a nutty blog. Since the beginning of the pandemic, many of us have made it clear that the only thing certain about Covid is continued uncertainty. The is no “one narrative” to this issue. Distrust of governing is sick. An informed healthy skepticism leads to a cure.
A person knowledgeable about “gain of function” would be able to: explain the biochemical responses involved; explain why one would want to do such a thing in the first place; provide examples and some history behind them; explain why a lab would do so; existing safety protocols for this type of research; if the narrative being told by nuts is even plausible. Please go on.
GregB,
Here is an example from the US: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2022/10/24/gain-of-function-experiments-at-boston-university-create-a-deadly-new-covid-19-virus-who-thought-this-was-a-good-idea/?sh=23cf4eec5ca3
To be clear it did not turn out that the manipulated virus was not as deadly. See https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/gain-function-not-so-fast
BU operates one of the 14 BSL 4 labs in the US. You can read about it here: https://www.bu.edu/neidl/about-neidl/ and about BSL in general here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_level
Teachingeconomist
To be clear: I was going to search for the article I had read about the BU Study .
But then to be clear: you must have meant that the Virus did not turn out to be as deadly. When I opened your second link there was the article . Thanks for the help .
“So what did the team find? Did they make a more dangerous version of the coronavirus? No. In fact, contrary to many of the people who are spouting off on this on social media, the new chimeric strain was less dangerous by comparison in animal tests. Some readers may have seen the figure of 80% of the mice exposed to the chimeric virus dying (because that one is sometimes passed around in ALL CAPS, it can be hard to miss). But before jumping out of your chair, consider that when these mice were exposed to the original Wuhan coronavirus that 100% of them died. This would also be a good time to mention that “exposed”, in this experiment, means “large dose sprayed directly up their noses”, not wafting around in the cage like some simulation of a mouse dinner party. And as another real virologist (Marion Koopmans of the Netherlands) notes from the data in the preprint, the chimeric virus actually had lower ability to replicate deep in the lung tissue, which may be some of the reason that it was less virulent than the ancestral strain”
Of course this may have many reasons which none here has the background in virology to discus .
What we can discus is the narrative around the virus.
The WHO and others urged from the start that geographic locations not be used to name this virus or any pathogen . Pathogens do not exhibit Nationalism or Native-ism when deciding who and where to infect.
Of course the Right in this country took great pleasure when they thought it was only affecting mainly minorities in big Blue cities. That did not work out too well as they rejected Public Safety and Vaccines . 47,000 , 110% more Floridians dead than New York residents. “Heck of a Job Ron”
From the start Trump and the Trumptards referred to the virus as”the Kung Flu” followed by the assertion without any evidence by various officials in the Trump administration, Robert O’Brien, Mike Pompeo, Pence that there was a tremendous cover up . If not something nefarious.
It would seem that Trump was the last one to know .
Oh wait
Oops one could hardly call being told on Jan 28 th by your National Security Putz O’brien about a “virus that would be the greatest threat to your Presidency”. Call a virus that Xi only personally got involved with a a little over a week before a massive cover up in China . Perhaps in Washington it was a massive coverup right till March 13th 2020 .
With the vitriol surrounding the virus as vile as it was coming
out of Washington, you expect the largest Country China, with arguably the largest economy and second most powerful Military to do what?
Then for proof of your baseless conspiracy, you claim that China’s refusal to cooperate with inspectors to your liking is proof of what?
The lab leak theory is not benign. It is an attempt to imply that China’s actions were Criminal. That something nefarious was going on, from sloppy regulation and careless researchers that killed millions,to a secret Germ warfare program. Working on Gain of Function to create a deadly virus from a benign one.
Why am I not surprised that the majority of the Scientific Community and even intelligence agencies aren’t buying it.
dianeravitch
Although I am reticent to criticize any Government institution
when they all are under a multi decade attack. Of all agencies in Government the FBI is probably the most conservative leaning Government agency. Possibly even more so than the CIA which has had leadership from across the political spectrum.
“Historically, though, the F.B.I. has been arguably the most culturally conservative and traditionally white Christian institution in the entire U.S. government. It’s an institution so culturally conservative, even by the standards of law enforcement, that Democratic presidents have never felt comfortable — or politically emboldened — enough to nominate a Democrat to head the bureau.
That’s right: Far from being a bastion of progressive thinking, every single director of the F.B.I. has been a Republican-aligned official, going all the way back to its creation” Garrett M. Graff
So if there is to be skepticism that the conclusions of an agency are not influenced by the culture within that agency . The conclusion by the FBI alone in its measure of confidence, that China a Communist State(minimally ) would be responsible for causing a Pandemic does warrant a little skepticism.
One of the strangest things that Trump wrought on the Nation was the Left having to defend the FBI.
Elle says this:
“Thinking that the government is up to something doesn’t make a person “a nut.” It makes them cautious and thoughtful.” So are you saying that Trump was up to something, or do you trust Trump? You can’t have it both ways, Elle. You should be skeptical of Trump, too.
Elle says this:
“I happen to think it’s much smarter to NOT blindly trust the government than it is to trust them – especially when it has become quite clear that neither side is working in our interests.” Are you going on record that you don’t trust Trump, or is your distrust of government based on your certainty that Trump and those who confirm whatever Trump says are the ONLY people in government you trust?
Elle says this:
“My issue with the entire COVID scenario is that there is ONE accepted narrative – and if you do not accept that as gospel and adhere to it and spew it forth from thy mouth – you are wrong, you are a “a nut,” you are a psychopath (lol), you are dangerous, you need to be locked up, you may be fired/ lose your job, you’ll be ostracized, your family may disown you, etc.”
Trump was the government official who said there was only one accepted narrative – his own – and Trump demonized and attacked those who challenged Trump’s narrative with evidence. Elle, it is very strange that you aren’t criticizing that. Is it because you always trust Trump?
Elle says this:
“Since when are people who want freedom treated like idiots and lepers? Since when do we behave like this towards our fellow human beings?” Since Trump normalized that, Elle.
You clearly do not like Trump. On that point we agree. I can’t stand him. However – I believe DeSantis is far more of a threat. He’s much more competent at getting things done for the extremist right.
Apparently my message was unclear. Let me clarify: I am a socialist in favor of a new economic system that works for everyone. I am a left wing progressive and have always voted blue. Agreeing with SOME of the Libertarian ideas of the Conservatives does not mean I agree with them all.
GregB suggests that distrusting the government is sick? Really? They lied us into the Iraq War. The minimum wage is still $7.25 an hour. People DIE because they can’t afford their medicine. NOTHING has been done about guns. Kinda looks like nothing is going to be done with Trump. Roe v. Wade is gone.
Ms. Ravitch is correct – my issue is clearly with politicians, not the civil servants who do the work to make this country what it used to be.
Of course I trust civil servants – I was RAISED by them! My parents worked for the Wayne-Westland Schools. My dad was a teacher for 34 years, my mom was a secretary and data technician for a total of 26 years.
It pains me to see where our country is going. How far down we’ve gone from where we once were – and the frightening direction we may be headed. No. I do NOT want any part of this extremism. I don’t understand anyone who thinks this is good, safe, or better than where we’ve been.
Elle,
I’m glad you clarified. DeSantis and Trump both represent the moral, ethical, and intellectual collapse of the Republican Party. Its central principle today seems to be hatred for the other plus love of money.
We are heading in a frightening direction indeed. Voters have the power to change direction. In 2024. These corrupt clowns should be laughed off the national stage.
I don’t know what will happen. I would love to see a Democratic President with a commanding majority in both houses. And an agenda that begins with a minimum wage of $15 an hour.
There is so much that needs to be done to set us on the right path. One that fulfills the promises that FDR made in his 1944 Inaugural Address, known as the Second Bill of Rights:
Employment (right to work
An adequate income for food, shelter, and recreation
Farmers’ rights to a fair income
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
Decent housing
Adequate medical care
Social security
Education
Since I was mentioned, I suggest you look at the entire comment and not what you choose to cherry-pick. Note that I distinguished between distrust and informed healthy skepticism. If you choose to lie about what I wrote, do a better job of it.
Given the fact that the DOE oversees the nuclear weapons program, confidence is not inspired by the lab leak report
BINGO