Timothy Snyder, the noted historian of democracy and tyranny at Yale University, wrote a post listing fifteen reasons why the world needs Ukraine to win and defeat Russian aggression against its very existence as a nation. Most important is to stop the genocidal slaughter of Ukrainians. The New York Times documented 339 significant cultural sites—museums, performing arts centers for theater, music, and dance, historical sites, and other cultural treasures—that have been destroyed in the Russian effort to eliminate Ukrainian existence as a nation.
He writes:
Why does the world need a Ukrainian victory?
1. To halt atrocity. Russia’s occupation is genocidal. Wherever the Ukrainians recover territory, they save lives, and re-establish the principle that people have a right not to be tortured, deported, and murdered.
2. To preserve the international legal order. Its basis is that one country may not invade another and annex its territory, as Russia seeks to do. Russia’s war of aggression is obviously illegal, but the legal order does not defend itself.
3. To end an era of empire. This could be the last war fought on the colonial logic that another state and people do not exist. But this turning point is reached only if Russia loses.
4. To defend the peace project of the European Union. Russia’s war is not directed only against Ukraine, but against the larger idea that European states can peacefully cooperate. If empire prevails, integration fails.
5. To give the rule of law a chance in Russia. So long as Russia fights imperial wars, it is trapped in repressive domestic politics. Coming generations of Russians could live better and freer lives, but only if Russia loses this war.
6. To weaken the prestige of tyrants. In this century, the trend has been towards authoritarianism, with Putinism as a force and a model. Its defeat by a democracy reverses that trend. Fascism is about force, and is discredited by defeat.
7. To remind us that democracy is the better system. Ukrainians have internalized the idea that they choose their own leaders. In taking risks to protect their democracy, they remind us that we all must act to protect ours.

8. To lift the threat of major war in Europe. For decades, a confrontation with the USSR and then Russia was the scenario for regional war. A Ukrainian victory removes this scenario by making another Russian offensive implausible.
9. To lift the threat of major war in Asia. In recent years, a Chinese invasion of Taiwan has been the leading scenario for a global war. A Ukrainian victory teaches Beijing that such an offensive operation is costly and likely to fail.
10. To prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons. Russia, a nuclear power, then invaded. If Ukraine loses, countries that can build nuclear weapons will feel that they need to do so to protect themselves.
11. To reduce the risk of nuclear war. A Ukrainian victory makes two major war scenarios involving nuclear powers less likely, and works against nuclear proliferation generally. Nothing would reduce the risk of nuclear war more than Ukrainian victory.
12. To head off future resource wars. Aside from being a consistent perpetrator of war crimes, Russia’s Wagner group seizes mineral resources by violence wherever it can. This is why it is fighting in Bakhmut.
13. To guarantee food supplies and prevent future starvation. Ukraine feeds much of the world. Russia threatens to use that food as a weapon. As one Russian propagandist put it, “starvation is our only hope.”
14. To accelerate the shift from fossil fuels. Putin shows the threat that hydrocarbon oligarchy poses to the future. His weaponization of energy supplies has accelerated the turn towards renewables. This will continue, if Russia loses.
15. To affirm the value of freedom. Even as they have every reason to define freedom as against something — Russian occupation –, Ukrainians remind us that freedom is actually for something, the right to be the people they wish to be, in a future they can help shape.
I am a historian of political atrocity, and for me personally number 1 — defeating an ongoing genocidal project — would be more than enough reason to want Ukrainian victory. But every single one of the other fourteen is hugely significant. Each presents the kind of opportunity that generations of policy planners wish for, but almost never get. Much has been done, we have not yet seen and seized the moment.
This is a once-in-lifetime conjuncture, not to be wasted. The Ukrainians have given us a chance to turn this century around, a chance for freedom and security that we could not have achieved by our own efforts, no matter who we happen to be. All we have to do is help them win.
23 January 2023
PS What can you do personally? Keep in touch with your elected representatives. Support military and humanitarian assistance. Make your views known. Write a letter to the editor. Share this post widely. Fly a Ukrainian flag. Put a sticker on your computer. Buy and wear Ukrainian merch. In great causes, small gestures matter.
If you want to keep Ukrainian soldiers alive, consider supporting this Ukrainian NGO and this international NGO (a 501(c)3). Here is a way to keep Ukrainians warm during winter (a 501(c)3). One of my commitments, with wonderful colleagues, has been Documenting Ukraine, a project that supports those in Ukraine who are chronicling the war (also a 501(c)3, “Partners” here). Thank you for reading, thinking, caring, and doing.
And what about 15 reasons to STOP the US from crapping all over the world in order to attain hegemony? Millions have perished all over the world for US actions – direct or indirect.
Vera,
What about Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine? Russian bombardment has destroyed thousands of homes, infrastructure, schools, libraries, hospitals, and nearly 400 cultural sites. That’s happening right now. Putin is sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children for his ego. That’s right now! And it’s very sad that you respond to every reference by saying “…and what about?” Putin is a monster.
Not anymore a monster than the entire ilk at Washington – wars, wars and more wars all over the planet. And now Washington, proving how utterly STUPID it is, trying to pick a fight with China. Very smart!!! The US needs to be given two black eyes and one hell of a bloody nose. Experience the pain that others have been experiencing for so many decades. All the US soldiers sacrificed in Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Iraq, Syria etc. etc. not enough for you?
You can’t give up your “what-about-ism.” So you defend a brutal dictator. Smart. Not.
If we had not sent our troops to Europe in 1942, you would be part of the everlasting Third Reich right now. And you and your family would probably have been sent to the gas chambers. Thank American troops for saving Europe from the Nazis.
Anyone who’s still saying “unprovoked” is just showing how propagandized they are. Yeah, sure, after ruling Russia for 20 years, Putin just woke up one morning and decided to invade Ukraine for no other reason than that he’s an evil madman diabolically out to rule the world, bwahahaha! Do you even hear yourself? Again, for the millionth time, we can debate whether the provocation justified the invasion, but to deny provocation at all is just ridiculous.
Once upon a time it was “Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles” and this ‘reich’ didn’t last 100 years. And now? we have “Amerika, Amerika ueber alles” and this ‘reich’ won’t last 300 years. Thank goodness.
Well, from your point of view, the Soviet Union will rise again, to kill Jews, gays, socialists, and dissenters. And you even have a new Stalin—little Vlad.
Enough of your propaganda bullshit!!! What sacrifices did the US make after entering WW 2 – 2 years after it started??? I guess it took the US so long to figure out how much was ‘in it for me’ before joining the war effort. Russia sacrificed 27 million civilians/soldiers…how much did the US ‘sacrifice’? About half a million. All these deaths too many…And now the US is ridiculing Russia’s sacrifice – an affront to all those who perished. Shame on you.
Whataboutism, much, Notlieb?
Well at least we know who the Russian Joe Besser and Russian Curly Joe and are. No way to they measure up to the standards of Moe, Larry, Curly or Shemp.
Don’t make a horses petunia out of yourself.
Noted.
–Bob the Horse’s Petunia
Anyone who’s still saying “unprovoked” is just showing how propagandized they are. Yeah, sure, after ruling Russia for 20 years, Putin just woke up one morning and decided to invade Ukraine for no other reason than that he’s an evil madman diabolically out to rule the world, bwahahaha! Do you even hear yourself? Again, for the millionth time, we can debate whether the provocation justified the invasion, but to deny provocation at all is just ridiculous.
Putin is an evil tyrant who thought he could seize all of Ukraine because he suffered no consequences for seizing Crimea in 2014.
Why has he silenced all independent media in Russia?
Why have hundreds of thousands of the most highly educated Russians fled to other countries?
Why has Putin declared war on all LGBT people?
What part of his war on dissent and LGBT do you support?
His invasion of Ukraine was unprovoked.
It is a war of choice.
I remember you writing here a year ago that he had no intention of invading Ukraine. Because he said so.
You wrote that he wanted to get rid of Nazis in Ukraine, because Putin said so.
Open your eyes.
Did he have to bomb hospitals and schools and libraries and apartments to kill Nazis?
Crimea also voted to go with the Russian Federation.
Why has Elensky silenced all opposition media (and political parties) in Ukraine?
Why are Ukrainian fighting age males fleeing Ukraine and why is Ukraine filing for extradition of all such males back to Ukraine?
Why have Ukrainian nazis declared war on pretty much everyone who is different from them, including not only LGBT people, but eastern Ukrainians and Romani people?
What part of Elensky’s war on dissent do you support?
It’s absolutely childish to say that the war was unprovoked – Putin had far more provocation to invade Ukraine than Bush had to invade Iraq or Obama had to invade Libya or Syria or Biden has to bomb Somalia.
I was wrong about him not invading, yes, but I was unaware of how extreme the situation in eastern Ukraine had become and the build-up of Kiev-regime troops (supported by NATO troops) on Putin’s border.
The only people denying the extreme influence of nazis in Ukraine are American liberals. The Ukrainians themselves certainly aren’t denying it. They openly celebrate Bandera as a nation. Ukrainian soldiers are routinely photographed displaying nazi insignia and flags. They have nazi training camps for children.
Open your eyes.
Most of the hospitals and schools that have been bombed were by Kiev regime forces shelling eastern Ukraine to kill eastern Ukrainians of Russian dissent.
Most of the world already acknowledges these realities, which is why only western vassal states are supporting sanctions against Russia. Truth always comes out.
Anyway, I have other work to do, so I probably won’t be around for a while. And to people like NYCPSP, Joel, etc. who only have insults to offer and never offer anything of substance, I won’t respond to you at all.
Have lovely days, folks. I may or may not further respond tonight.
LGBT people are persecuted in Russia, not in Ukraine. Ukraine wants to join the west but Putin won’t have it. I have not heard a word about persecution of LGBT in Ukraine. I’ve heard plenty about Russia and Hungary.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-lgbt-idUSKBN2F414J
The difference between Russia and Ukraine on LGBT rights is that things are getting better in Ukraine and much, much worse in Russia. Putin personally abhors gap people. He just signed a law to assess heavy fines for saying anything gay.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/audio/kremlins-favorite-scapegoat-latest-attack-lgbtq-rights-russia
https://humanrightsfirst.org/library/same-sex-partnerships-in-ukraine-would-show-its-values/
I know know where I would choose to live. Certainly never in Putin’s Russia.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62134804
That article is about a petition that was signed by 28,000 people (in a nation of 43 million) back in July, 2022 to encourage Elensky to consider same sex marriage. It failed. It also talks about a lot of attacks against LGBTQ people by the far right which you pretend doesn’t exist.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/05/europe/russia-lgbtq-propaganda-law-signed-by-putin-intl/index.html
Fines for gay people who talk about LGBT are up to $80,000.
dienne77
“after ruling Russia for 20 years” And you don’t find that troubling in itself ? Especially when his opposition sits in a cell after having been poisoned .
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220218-ukraine-s-russian-speakers-worry-about-being-saved-by-putin
But, Joel, don’t you realize those evil Ukraine people “have nazi training camps for children” so we should shut up and let Putin bomb as many children as he wants?
(the nasty subtext here is that this Putin-defender seems to hope if she tells us that these kids are training to be Nazis, we will join her in agreeing that Putin’s bombing of children and their families is perfectly fine.)
After the ILLEGAL invasion of Crimea by Putin’s little green men, the Russians held a kangaroo election at the point of their guns.
Anyone who thinks that the Russians hold free and fair election is naive. Apparently any territory they invade lives them.
Exactly
If Russian elections were completely fair, they would elect someone far more anti-Amercan than Putin. The biggest criticism of Putin on Russia is that he’s been far too patient with the U.S.
Not only patient with the US, no, also with NATO. Putin has tried to avoid war at all costs but war mongering US and ‘comrades’ keep provoking until war finally starts – which suits the US war industry just fine.
No one forced Putin to invade Ukraine. He did it because he thought he could get away with it. If he did it when Trump was president, he would have conquered a sovereign nation.
Like you, Trump is a patsy for Putin.
And anyone who believes that the US holds free and fair elections is just as naive
Well, I believe the U.S. holds fair and free elections. You and Trump don’t agree. When was the last time Putin conducted a fair and free election? Where is Navalny? Where is Nemtsov? Where is anyone else who dared to run against him? Dead.
Navalny (who, incidentally, is a neo-nazi who calls Muslims “cockroaches”) is in jail for corruption. I nave no idea who Nemtsov is, as I suspect you didn’t until the media told you to freak out about him.
Navalny is a political leader who terrifies Putin. Putin has threatened the world with nuclear war, and you disdain Navalny? Really. Navalny is in jail for opposing Putin. Watch the CNN documentary about Navalny. He is a brave man. Putin tried to poison him. He nearly died. He recovered in a German hospital. He could have remained Germany, a free man. But he voluntarily returned to Russia, knowing that Putin would imprison him. Navalny is awesome.
Putin doesn’t give a rat’s rear about Navalny. His support in Russia is negligible.
Of course Putin doesn’t care about Navalny. He can murder him at any moment.
Then why hasn’t he? You just said he’s terrified of him. Which is it?
Putin tried to poison him and he nearly died. Putin locked Navalny up on phony charges. He is in a prison far from Moscow. He remains defiant. Navalny is 1,000 times better than Putin.
The last time someone dared to challenge Putin, he was shot to death. Nemtsov. No one was ever arrested.
All of this comes from western media. Russia denies it. Not saying Russia is telling the truth, but I’m not inclined to believe western media either. I did a little reading on the alleged poisoning. Navalny said it likely came from some tea he drank before his flight from Tomsk to Moscow, which is a four and a half hour flight. The planed landed at Omsk, which is about a quarter of the way, so at least an hour flight time, plus however long before the flight he drank the tea, plus however long until he received medical care in Omsk. Novichok is supposedly one of the most deadly poisons, yet Navalny allegedly had it in his system for well over an hour and not only didn’t die, but apparently suffered no nerve or organ damages. I’m not a doctor, of course, so, maybe, but….?
I honestly can’t find much about Navalny’s alleged poisoning, but whistleblower Craig Murray raises some interesting questions about the alleged Skripal poisoning: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/
His underwear were poisoned. Not his tea.
Hmm, then there are different versions of the story floating around. According to Navalny’s spokeswoman, it was likely in the tea he had prior to the flight. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexei_Navalny
How in hell would poisoners get access to his underwear?
Okay, here’s the underwear story. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/21/navalny-russian-agent-novichok-death-plot
This version is complements of Bellingcat which has been caught in numerous lies. And this version is even more implausible. The underwear were allegedly poisoned two days prior to him wearing them, yet they didn’t contaminate anything else in his suitcase? And he wore them all day, suddenly got violently sick on the plane, yet survived until the plane could land and he was taken to the hospital. And still he suffered no lasting damages. Okay, sure, if he says so…..
Dienne,
I don’t know why you found it so hard to get information about Putin’s attempt to poison Navalny. I googled “Navalny poisoned” and up popped numerous articles.
They appeared in numerous journals across the US and Europe. I assume you did not believe in these reports because they did not appear in Russian sources.
Here is one from Science magazine:
https://www.science.org/content/article/how-german-military-scientists-likely-identified-nerve-agent-used-attack-alexei-navalny
“On 2 September, German Chancellor Angela Merkel revealed that Alexei Navalny, a Russian opposition politician, had been poisoned with a nerve agent “identified unequivocally in tests” as a Novichok—one of a family of exotic Soviet-era chemical weapons. Merkel, a chemist by training, did not reveal the nature of the tests, conducted in a military lab in Munich. But scientists familiar with Novichoks have a good idea how the toxicological sleuths went about it—and are impressed by how fast the culprit was unmasked.
“Navalny fell ill on 20 August after drinking a cup of tea at a Siberian airport. He lapsed into a coma and was flown to Berlin 2 days later; in a statement yesterday, the hospital treating him said he is out of the coma and “responding to verbal stimuli.” Navalny’s supporters have accused Russian operatives of slipping poison into the tea—a charge that seems credible in light of Russia’s recent record of using toxic substances to silence critics.
“Novichok A234 was the weapon of choice for settling a score with a former Russian spy, Sergei Skripal, in Salisbury in the United Kingdom in March 2018. In a botched operation, two Russian intelligence officers left a trail of evidence in the attempted assassination of Skripal, whose daughter Yulia also fell ill after exposure to A234. They survived, but a woman who later came across a perfume bottle containing the substance died.”
From The New Yorker magazine:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/alexey-navalny-has-the-proof-of-his-poisoning
“Alexey Navalny is the biggest thorn in Vladimir Putin’s side. A decade ago, Navalny, as a young lawyer in Moscow, started piecing together publicly available information to document corruption and abuse of power in the Russian government. At first, he used his blog to document inflated prices in government contracts, suggesting kickbacks; he moved on to documenting real-estate holdings, luxury cars, and cash reserves that government officials had registered in the names of relatives. Navalny’s one-man project grew into the Anti-Corruption Foundation, a multimedia production company with dozens of investigators whose tools have ranged from data mining to sending drones to film the estates of highly placed bureaucrats. One of Navalny’s biggest hits is a series of films about the then Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev’s sneaker-collecting habits and estate, which included three helopads, a ski slope, cascading swimming pools, a hotel-style dormitory for staff, and a little lake house for ducks, which became an Internet meme. Russian authorities have been fighting to have the films removed from YouTube, where one of them has been viewed more than thirty-six million times.
“Navalny was one of the leaders of the mass protests against rigged elections that erupted in Russia in 2011 and 2012. Many of his fellow-members of the protest coördinating council are either living in exile, like the chess champion Garry Kasparov or the prisoners’-rights activist Olga Romanova, or dead, like the politician Boris Nemtsov. The Kremlin has tried to shut down Navalny and his organization through a series of court cases and arrests. But when Navalny was jailed in 2013, sentenced to five years on flagrantly trumped-up embezzlement charges, thousands of Muscovites protested and secured his release. When he was sentenced to house arrest, Navalny refused to comply, because the Russian penal code does not allow for such a punishment; after a few months, the authorities gave up, although his brother, Oleg, remained behind bars for years on spurious charges.
“Navalny’s activism and reach kept expanding—he even attempted to run for President—and for a few years he seemed invincible. (In a piece for this magazine in 2016, I wrote, “The strangest thing about Alexey Navalny is that he is walking around Moscow, still.”) But, on August 20th, Navalny fell ill when returning to Moscow from the Siberian city of Tomsk. He was in a coma for twenty-six days, most of them in a hospital in Berlin. Analysis performed by multiple European labs shows that he was poisoned with a previously unknown version of Novichok, a deadly Russian-developed chemical agent. Navalny regained his ability to speak, write, and make jokes within ten days of coming out of the coma, but he has continued to experience significant physical effects owing to the poisoning. He spoke with me, over Zoom, from an apartment in Berlin, on October 8th; through the screen, it was obvious that Navalny had lost a great deal of weight, but otherwise he looked and sounded as I’d always remembered him. Our conversation has been translated from Russian and condensed.”
Okay, so was it the tea or the underwear? I should think that would be something a bunch of toxicologists could easily determine. And you’ll forgive me if I don’t trust Merkel as she’s the German leader I mentioned who admitted that they never intended to honor the Minsk Accords, so it’s pretty clear what her agenda is (Hollande was the French leader, Poroshenko the Ukrainian). Anyway, neither of those articles addressed any of the questions I raised or that Murray raised regarding the Skripal case. As we’ve learned far too often, western politician/media with an agenda should never be trusted on faith.
Only Putin can be trusted to tell the truth.
Be sure to watch this CNN documentary on Navalny:
Putin tried to poison him and failed. Navalny could have been safe in Germany but insisted on returning to Russia, knowing that Putin would imprison him on trumped-charges: https://www.cnn.com/shows/navalny-cnn-film
Crimea has belonged to Russia since the end of the 1700s, having won it in a battle against the Ottoman Empire – today Turkey. It was Kruschev (a Ukrainian) who donated Crimea to Ukraine and had no business doing so.
Ukraine is an independent nation. It is a violation of international law and the UN charter for one nation to invade another.
Putin’s boyfriend Patriarch Kiril has stated in public numerous times that Russia had to invade Ukraine because they allow pride parades there, and the extreme homophobe Putin has echoed this. So, this was added to the ridiculous rationales for the ILLEGAL and profoundly immoral invasion of Ukraine.
“Putin’s boyfriend ” LOL. Count on welcoming and affirming liberals to fall back on homophobia when they don’t have an argument. Thanks for not disappointing.
I have grown tired of providing arguments to you, Dienne. It’s like arguing with a stump.
The feeling is mutual, Bob. You remind me of my best friend’s niece who was raised in a cult. She never had actual answers or arguments either. Just non sequiturs and insults.
Dienne, I spent months and months posting patient arguments in response to the treasonous idiocies that you post about Russia and Ukraine. I patiently explained the history to you and the international law. I posted accounts by the on-the-scene journalists that you claimed didn’t exist and on and on and on and on. And finally, I have thrown up my hands. Your posts on this subject are deranged, ideologically, and profoundly uninformed, and mostly they simply parrot prima facie ridiculous Putinist propaganda.
Haaa!
–Reality cultist Bob Shepherd
The boyfriend comment was meant a) to highlight the incredibly close relationship that these troglodytes have and b) as a dig at Putin because of HIS homophobia.
Duh
It was clearly a playground level f-word taunt, but do go on.
Putin is the one who has a problem with men having boyfriends. Not me.
Duh again.
She won’t even admit that Putin is homophobic! Instead, she uses ugly innuendo so say that Bob is.
A parent who gives lip service to supporting LBGTQ kids while they defend political leaders like Putin is implicitly anti-trans and anti-gay. They have made it clear that throwing gay and trans kids under the bus is a small price to pay to make sure Ukraine is just as wonderful as Russia is. Or that the evil Dems who have been demonized for supporting LBGTQ rights be defeated, even if that empowers the politicians who demonize LGBTQ people.
Putin is homophobic. Maybe he is secretly gay. Often, the ones who complain the most have something to hide.
And what business is it of ours whether Putin is gay or whatever? But I forget…Americans are so perfect.
If he is gay, that would explain his hatred for anyone who is openly gay. I don’t care if he is gay. I care that he criminalizes everyone who is gay.
Where have I ever denied that Putin is homophobic? My point is that Ukraine is homophobic.
I would far rather be in Ukraine than in Russia. Russia just passed another law criminalizing gays. In Ukraine, gays willingly serve in the military. Ukraine is getting better, Russia incomparably worse.
It takes one gay to know another one, eh?
That’s is not necessarily true, Vera. But gays often have gaydar.
“I have never denied….!”
Can you really not say the words “Putin is homophobic and the situation for LGBTQ people in Russia is HORRIBLE?
Can you really not say that it is far better to be LBGTQ in those western democracies who you dismiss as puppets of the US that are supporting Ukraine?
“My point is that Ukraine is homophobic.” No, your point is that you can’t actually say that Russia is a terrible place for LGBTQ.
You can’t say it and I think that is very telling.
Just say that the situation for LGBTQ people in Russia is terrible, or go on using weasel words like “I have never denied…” If you can’t say it, you don’t believe it.
peskyvera,
I guess you don’t know about Lend Lease or FDR’s all aid short of war policy before the U.S. was attacked at Pearl Harbor.
“Why the world needs an Iraqi or Afhani victory” could have been a headline for when the US illegally invaded those countries. I wonder if Snyder had the same thing to say about the US?
So you’re saying that we had no right to criticize Hitler because of slavery and the genocide of the first peoples of “America?”
exactly. The argument makes ZERO sense.
No!
All of this completely ignores the documented civil war of the Kiev regime against the ethnic Russian people of eastern Ukraine. Poroshenko himself bragged that “our children” (western Ukrainians) would “go to school” while “their children” (eastern Ukrainians) would “live in the cellars. That region had been bombed and people slaughtered for eight years. They had been asking for Russian protection all along, but Putin insisted on an arrangement (the Minsk Accords) that would have kept those areas part of Ukraine. French, German and Ukrainian officials have all now admitted that they never intended to enforce the Minsk Accords; they were just an opportunity to build up forces against Russia (in case it’s not obvious, it means that western forces LIED – and we wonder why Putin doesn’t trust the west?). The people of those regions overwhelmingly view the Russians as liberators, not occupiers, which is why they overwhelmingly voted to become part of the Russian Federation (as they had previously). I know the propaganda tells you that those elections were fraudulent because they were held under duress, but then, you have consistently refused to hear the voices of eastern Ukrainians.
There is no possibility of a Ukrainian victory. Most likely, the west cannot and will not commit to the kind of support that Ukraine would need to defeat a military power like Ukraine. Without significantly more western support, Ukraine (which is already conscripting every 16 to 70 year old they can get their hands on) does not have the means to defeat Russia. Continuing to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to defeat Russia does not help Ukraine, which will be a wholly-owned subsidiary of the U.S. once this is over anyway.
In the unlikely event that western forces do commit enough to defeat Russia, Russia will consider that an existential threat and the possibility of nuclear war increases exponentially. No one wins a nuclear war.
Incidentally, a country that has over 800 military bases throughout the world, including on Russia’s and China’s borders – the same country that has invaded countries from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos to Grenada to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria – has absolutely no business calling any other country imperialist. That’s like Trump calling someone else orange.
Timothy Snyder knows far more about Ukraine and Europe than you do. Why don’t you ever listen?
Because she is blinded by ideology
Logical fallacy: appeal to authority. Everything I’ve said is documented. Refute my point or else you’re the ones blinded by ideology.
“Timothy Snyder knows far more…” implies/visualizes a conceivable, understandable gap. I think it’s closer to the recent news about the Webb telescope. Before yesterday, it was unimaginable to think that newly found galaxies are in the same universe as ours.
Not a logical fallacy. This is an appeal to actual knowledge about the matter.
Duh
There is no possibility of a Ukrainian victory.
Haaaaa. ROFLMAO!!!!! OMG, make it stop. Soooo funny.
This from the person who wrote here, numerous times, that there was no possibility that Russia was going to invade Ukraine again.
Bob,
Did you notice the sick wording: “Continuing to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to defeat Russia…”
She is now blaming us – not Putin – for “sacrificing” their lives. Putin brutally bombs civilian targets full of families, but Putin is not to blame. It is we who have “sacrificed” them when it could all end if the US would just tell Ukraine to welcome Putin’s armies with open arms, let them make the evil “Nazi” Zelensky disappear, and have a real leader this poster can admire, like Putin or one of his puppets.
If she was consistently pro-ruthless strongmen brutalizing their own people, I could see why she would love watching Putin reigning violence down on civilians. But she presents herself as supporting destroying Ukraine in order to achieve the peace she knows will come if we only let Putin take over and make it the lovely free speech country that Russia is.
Appeasement of Putin will bring happiness and peace to all, she says. Just like defeating the Democrats will bring about a democratic socialist nirvana.
Because why wouldn’t having a murderous authoritarian controlling your country be a welcome event for the Ukraine people? Haven’t we heard this before? Like in 1938. like in 2016.
What she really is saying is only by destroying Zelensky and his horrible, awful ideas, and replacing Zelensky with someone who governs more like Putin, can the Ukraine people get what is best for them. They don’t need no stinking democracy in Ukraine. They just need Putin.
I know. Her comments about this situation are bizarre. It’s a bit hilarious–a self-described Communist apologist for the predatory Capitalist kleptocratic Putin. Bizarre. Utterly confused. Everything she says backassward.
Believe it or not, Germans were told the same thing after D-Day. Just one word was different. Fun fact: About two thirds of German casualties in WWII occurred after D-Day, when there were eleven months until capitulation.
omg
Putin is an imperialist, certainly, but please add kleptocratic, homophobic, sexist, dictatorial, authoritarian, genocidal, deranged, cruel, dishonest, ridiculously insecure, and vindictive to the list of his many charms. Can’t wait for the next photoshoot of shirtless Putin wrestling a Siberian tiger to the ground. Potemkin Putin.
Thrilling, those shoots, huh Dienneagain?
Putz. Just love writing and saying that when I can. Not you, him.
If two words were every made for one another, it’s Putin and putz.
Diane Ravitch,
In this entire screed above, there is not one criticism of Putin’s brutal attacks on civilian targets. Nor of Putin’s brutal repression of the many citizens of Russia who are getting killed and imprisoned for daring to write or say anything that isn’t entirely supportive of the war.
Listening to this person “fascist-splain” to us how Putin’s brutal bombing of Ukraine civilians and Putin’s repression and imprisonment and murders of his own citizens is justified and should not be criticized because only she knows the truth has really gone too far.
The above screed doesn’t criticize Putin ONE BIT. It is similar to the faux criticism this person made about Trump. Trump has orange hair. His speech is uncouth. But if anyone tries to criticize Trump (or the Republicans) for their reprehensible and repressive anti-democratic actions, she is right there fascist-splaining how Democrats are evil and tries to shut down all criticism.
Putin is not allowed to be criticized. There is not a word in the above screed criticizing Putin’s most brutal actions.
Instead, the entire screed basically blames the people of Ukraine and the US for “making” Putin brutalize Ukraine and for making Putin murder, imprison and repress his own citizens in Russia who don’t agree with this person that the Ukraine children deserve whatever brutality Putin wants to reign down on them.
This isn’t just dissent. It is sick. And it is a huge danger to democracy if this kind of violence-condoning rhetoric and this violence-promoting rhetoric is allowed to stand without calling it out.
We in the US – we who post on your blog – can criticize both our own government and Putin. The citizens of Russia cannot criticize Putin. This person cannot criticize Putin. Or Trump. That speaks for itself.
Reading this poster using language from the Third Reich, mimicking Hitler’s justification about how he just invaded to protect all the “ethnic Germans” who welcomed Hitler’s invasion makes me realize how dangerous she is.
She repeats the most outlandish propaganda to justify Putin’s brutal attacks.
Is there anything Putin does that may be criticized? Or is all criticism of Putin banned (and thus Putin is correct to brutalize his own people who dared to disagree) because some southern police and government officials brutalized civil rights protestors?
This poster intentionally omits the biggest difference in a rush to justify Putin’s worst brutality. Why can’t she criticize the US and Putin, as we do?
The answer to that question is very important. Why can’t she criticize the US and Putin, instead of making her criticism of the US the justification for her condoning the anti-democratic brutality of Putin?
dienne77
I know this is a little bit beyond you . But the US is absolutely responsible for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Ukraine was the 3rd largest Nuclear power in the World when we convinced them to turn the Nuclear weapons over to Russia.
But I doubt many ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine ever wanted to be dominated by Putin .
https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-trilateral-process-the-united-states-ukraine-russia-and-nuclear-weapons/
Reblogged this on dean ramser.
Once again, Timothy Snyder nails it. A compassionate, brilliant, deeply learned fellow!
Wow, look at all the Putin apologists. How dare you criticize Russia when America has so much blood on its hands. Well, gee whiz folks, it’s possible to chew gum and walk at the same time. We criticize the misdeeds and sins of the US as well as those of the Putinocracy. Hordes of people criticized our invasions/occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq which were done in reaction to the 9/11 bloodbath and they were not arrested, poisoned or dropped out of tall buildings.
I will go out on a limb and say that I hope that the Ukrainians can at least put a halt to any further annexations of their land. There’s no negotiating with a monster like Putin, he only recognizes brute force. Bravo to the Ukrainians for their courage and resolve in spite of being attacked by a much larger nation.
Nothing short of a complete victory, including retaking Crimea, is acceptable.
Amen to that!
It’s hilarious how many of you are going back to WWII to find a war the U.S. was justified for. 80 years, folks! Can’t you find anything more recent? Or are you admitting that U.S. foreign policy has been a disaster since then?
So your logic is that the US is bad, therefore Putin is right to destroy Ukraine? I don’t follow.
I was just responding to the other people’s posts. If U.S. actions are irrelevant, then people shouldn’t bring up WWII.
Timothy Snyder is an authority on Europe and authoritarianism. I trust his judgement as well as my eyes.
Timothy Snyder is one expert. There are others who disagree with him. Stephen Cohen is an expert on Russia, but you don’t want to believe him, so why should I believe Snyder? I’ve posted dozens of articles from other experts, but everything that disagrees with you is “Russian propaganda”.
Anyway, again, my offer still stands. Anyone who wants a copy of Cohen’s book on Russia just needs to let me know where to have it sent.
Dienne, if I lived in Russia, I would be in prison. For my views, for my inability to watch in silence, for who I am.
Would you? I do t think so.
Diane, if I lived in Ukraine, I’d be dead for my views. Freedom and democracy, my Aunt Fanny.
If you lived in Russia, you would be a hero.
If whatshername lived in Ukraine, it wouldn’t be the government that would kill her, it would be large, bumbling Russian or Chinese made dumb bombs that have no idea where they will land. Not that it makes any difference at all.
Let’s remember that this person is citing Stephen Cohen, a scholar WHO DIED IN 2020!, before Biden was even elected president, to fascist-splain to us why she believes that no matter how much evil Putin does in his attempt to make Ukraine his puppet state, it is always the fault of the US.
Stephen Cohen would be criticizing Putin’s actions and would never be like this poster and claim that massive attacks on civilian targets are justified because Putin was fighting “Nazis” in Ukraine.
It is not acceptable for someone to use a Russia scholar who died years before Putin decided to bring his wrath down on Ukraine to excuse the reprehensible actions of Putin.
Stephen Cohen would not be afraid to criticize Putin.
Russia has waged many wars, too. So what?
These illogical arguments are getting tiresome. The US has done evil so we cannot criticize anything evil Putin does.
Bernie Sanders and AOC know this person is wrong. They criticize Putin but this person claims she has superior knowledge to both of them. Or perhaps her new argument is that Bernie and AOC are now just as evil as everyone else except Putin, Trump and the Republicans who are above criticism.
In the name of her moral values, she won’t criticize Putin, but attacks the rest of us for criticizing both the US and Russia.
When Putin does something bad, she blames it on the US. When Republicans do something bad, she blames it on the Democrats.
Anyone else see a pattern here?
Ask her to criticize Putin for anything. She will criticize looks or manners, but anything bad Putin does is always the fault of someone else. Similar to what she wrote about Trump for many years.
BRAVO!!!
Before I sign off for a while, speaking of things I’ve been right about, Russiagate has almost completely fallen apart. Jeff Gerth is a retired 30 year NYT journalist. The CJR is one of the most respected journalism outlets. You can’t pass this off as Trump/Russia propaganda.
https://www.cjr.org/special_report/trumped-up-press-versus-president-part-1.php?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
BTW, this is a 50,000 word exposition, so it will take you a while to read the whole thing. Please don’t respond unless and until you have done so.
I will read it if you read the point by point takedown of Gerth’s lousy reporting by Marcy Wheeler, at empty wheel.net.
Naturally these people all agree on Gerth’s reporting being excellent: our resident Putin-defender.Tucker Carlson. Fox News. All the people known for their devotion to “truth”. William Barr. John Durham. (fyi, it was clear that the latter 2 political hacks were the source for most of Gerth’s reporting. Along with Trump, himself! )
In fact, Marcy Wheeler — who one of the first to call out the PROBLEMS with the Steele dossier and the early reporting on it — did such a powerful point by point take down of Jeff Gerth that next week the J school is having a special PR sessions with Gerth and Kyle Pope to defend it! Kyle Pope was Jared Kushner’s pet lapdog who did Jared’s bidding when Pope was the editor at Jared’s hobby newspaper, the NY Observer.
CJR is in real trouble because they spiked a story about Stephen Cohen and the Nation’s censoring stories that didn’t fit the pro-Putin narrative but published this 50,000 word exposition by the man most famous for two huge reporting fiascos that would have gotten most reporters fired: Hyping “Whitewater” as a huge scandal (despite Ken Starr having unlimited power, resources and time he found nothing except oral sex in the White House). And reporting that Chinese scientist Wen Ho Lee stole secrets to spy for China. (Newsflash, he didn’t).
But all three cases where Gerth’s reporting was proven to be way off base have something in common. In all three cases, Jeff Gerth took every word that his right wing “sources” told him as gospel and ignored all the people offering far stronger evidence that this right wing narrative was false and not based on anything but conjecture.
In that way, Jeff Gerth is a lot like this Putin defender here. At least Jeff Gerth eventually had to acknowledge his reporting was seriously flawed, although he rushed to blame an “editing error” and not his own acting as a useful idiot for right wing propaganda.
Marcy Wheeler did such a good point by point dissection of the CJR piece that Kyle Pope threw up his hands and refused to address all the points she made! Pope’s defense was basically “trust us”.
Quotes from Marcy follow for anyone who doesn’t have time to read either Gerth’s screed or Marcy Wheeler’s point by point rebuttal which Gerth and Pope offered nothing except to basically say I’m right and I’m too smart to be wrong.
Dienne: Remember, Dienne, when you said that grass is pink?
Dienne: Of course, Dienne.
Dienne: Well, you were right about that!
Dienne: Of course.
Quote from Dienne: What part of Elensky’s war on dissent do you support?
It’s absolutely childish to say that the war was unprovoked – Putin had far more provocation to invade Ukraine than Bush had to invade Iraq or Obama had to invade Libya or Syria or Biden has to bomb…End Quote
There’s the whole problem in a nutshell, Dienne must be talking about some other country with Elensky as its president. Who the hell is Elensky, never heard of him, must be the leader of some mythical country from D-77’s imagination. She spells Putin just fine, oh wait is that President Sputum of Rushia.
She is referring to Ukraine’s ban on using the Russian invader’s Z and V symbols. And, ofc, she is entirely misrepresenting this.
And, ofc, given the current circumstances, this is completely necessary because, at present, the presence of such a symbol identifies something as the property of the rapist marauders of the country, which could lead to private Ukrainian property being mistakenly destroyed. You don’t want teenage vandals, for example, to put these symbols on someone’s van or barn. It might be blown up. A necessary thing to do in a time of war to protect the citizenry and Ukrainian people’s property.
Disgustingly, Elon Musk has also emerged as a Putin apologist. I will NEVER buy one of his products for that reason.
Dear friends of mine were killed in a head on collision last Friday. They (two doctors) were driving a Ford Explorer. They collided with a 2023 Tesla The Tesla exploded and incinerated its occupants. The local fire department could not put out the lithium ion fire. The Tesla burned for two hours.
OMG. This is horrible. So sorry for your loss, Diane!!!!
My condolences to you and the families – what a horrible tragedy.
Elon Musk’s peace plan is the same as Putin’s.
Exactly. So, why is Musk suddenly reading from the Putin talking points? Inquiring minds want to know.
Marcy Wheeler has an excellent point by point rebuttal to the Gerth piece that is a favorite of Tucker Carlson, Trump, and other far right “truth-tellers”.
“It took just 18 words into a 23,000-word series complaining about journalistic mistakes in the coverage of the investigation into Trump’s ties with Russia before Jeff Gerth made his first error.”
“by defining “Russiagate” as a narrative, Gerth and Pope walk into the project assuming not that reporting arose from actual facts, but instead was manufactured. In fact, Gerth even blames Hillary for unrelated reporting about things Donald Trump did. This is an attempt to prove Hillary wrong, not an attempt to assess the reporting on a serious criminal investigation.
Perhaps because of that, Gerth suggests – like many “Russiagate” proponents – that the press may only assert a role in political accountability with regards to Trump’s actions on Russia if the inquiry in question first meets a narrow legal measure, the charging of one crime, conspiracy.
That totally upends the way accountability must work in a democracy, in which a lot of behavior must be subject to critique by the media but may not be a prosecutable crime. ”
…..
“But the linguistic games adopted by “Russiagate” advocates – and by Trump, as a defense plan – which treated “collusion” as “conspiracy” and dismissed everything Trump did that was not charged as conspiracy, disserved the public. Those word games conflate political accountability with legal accountability. Indeed, it flipped those things, suggesting that short of a crime, the public and the press had no business to demand political accountability for really scandalous behavior from Trump.
These word games are a perfectly fine hobby for angry men posting screen caps on Twitter and they worked spectacularly well to distract from Trump’s own actions. But they deliberately serve to obfuscate, an approach that should have no place in journalism and media criticism. As we’ll see, that sloppiness carried over, on Gerth’s part, to virtually all aspects of his project.
That’s why I’ve spent far too long unpacking it: the failures of his project show the failures of “Russiagate” – the blind spots it adopts, the ethical lapses, and even the factual mistakes.”
Marcy Wheeler is an excellent source. She is human and occasionally gets things wrong and CORRECTS HER MISTAKES. She sets out copious evidence and argument to support her truth, and LISTENS when people challenge her and will either defend what she said or acknowledge their point.
In fact, Marcy Wheeler is a lot like Diane Ravitch.
I do not understand why someone like our resident Putin/Trump defender is at this blog. It stands for everything she is against. The folks here criticize both sides, and they expect a standard of truth.
That standard of truth is not met by Putin and Trump and Tucker Carlson, nor by Jeff Gerth. It won’t surprise anyone that the same people who lie so often in the right wing universe loved Gerth. They never let any evidence get in the way of proving what they know in their heart is true.
That’s why our resident Putin-defender keeps invoking Ukraine Nazis (now their children are being trained in Nazi training camps, she tells us today!) Putin had excellent reasons to bomb the crap out of Ukraine civilians and children and our resident Putin-defender will believe that no matter what evidence there is.
Jeff Gerth has done this before — Gerth reported uncritically everything his right wing sources told him about how there was enormous evidence that Chinese scientist Wen Ho Lee was a spy. No matter how many times people told Gerth about evidence that disproved the false right wing narrative he was presenting, Gerth ignored anything that contradicted it. Gerth destroyed the scientist’s life and years later when the false narrative he presented proved to be untrue, he blamed an “editing error”.
Marcy Wheeler. Diane Ravitch. People whose only agenda is to find the truth. People who CORRECT their errors.
Tucker Carlson. Jeff Gerth. Matt Taibbi. People who double down on the false things they say over and over again instead of either address the criticisms or making a corrections. They simply attack and attack, which should tell you why they should never be trusted.
Diane Ravitch and Marcy Wheeler and many others always consider real criticism and Diane spends a lot of time here addressing it, until it is clear her critics don’t want to hear anything but “you are right”. Anyone who doesn’t believe in engaging in truthful dialogue should leave this blog right now, because I find the constant innuendo from our Putin-defenders that Diane Ravitch is lying or stupid or just not as smart as they are to know the “truth” to be disgusting.
They have never engaged, they just attack and attack anyone who criticizes Putin and you will notice they never really criticize Putin themselves.
So their only purpose in posting seems to be propaganda.
“I do not understand why someone like our resident Putin/Trump defender is at this blog.”
Because . . . free speech
Because, when truth and falsehood grapple, the truth will out
Because the parroting of this Putinesca propaganda provides opportunities to instruct people on the truth
Because it’s valuable to know what the Putin the Putz propagandists are putting up on their carnival midway this week
and so on.
Bob,
When lying propaganda is not called out for what it is, people believe it. There is a good reason that so many Americans believe the lie about the election being stolen from Trump. And many of those people watch other news in addition to the right wing media they consume.
Here is what they hear:
Right wing news tells them how evil Democrats are, how good Putin is, how Trump and Elon Musk are victims, don’t trust anyone who says differently because they are liars.
So-called liberal media tells them that people like our Putin-defender has her view and we disagree and no one really knows which is right and we treat all views with the respect they deserve.
That has been the practice by a brainwashed liberal media who believes presenting both sides equally is the journalistic goal, and that goal is far more important than telling readers what is true. The right tells them what is true. The people who should be telling them what is true instead tell them that they have no idea what is true because either of those sides might be true and there are such good and valid arguments on both sides.
But it is called out. When pesky or Dienne posts some utter claptrap about Ukraine and Russia (such as the claim that Ukraine has belonged to Russia since the 1700s), it is typically called out here. I highly recommend Timothy Snyder’s superb Yale course on Ukrainian history, which disposes utterly of that ignorant myth.
She is treated as if she is a truth-teller. Every time she posts something that happens to be true, she is given credibility and treated with respect.
And that’s the problem, in my opinion. Everyone makes mistakes. I cited Diane Ravitch and Marcy Wheeler not because everything they have ever posted was 100% accurate — I cited them because their ONLY goal is to make sure they are posting 100% accurate information and when someone informs them they are not, they thoughtfully consider the evidence and then explain why they stand by their facts or correct them.
But when someone constantly posts false things and doubles down on them, they should lose their credibility, period.
Credibility shouldn’t be transactional. People who push propaganda should be treated as propaganda pushers.
We live in a society where Republicans – and people like our poster – spew falsehoods with abandon because they never lose any credibility no matter how many falsehoods they double down on. The media will continue to report on every utterance as if it is of vital importance that we hear the words of a “credible” person who only lies sometimes and might be telling the truth this time.
If a known purveyor of falsehoods happens to say something true, who cares? That means a CREDIBLE person who tries to be truthful all the time instead of some of the time is also saying that truth, and they are the ones who should be listened to because they have credibility.
Republicans lie because they do not have to pay even the smallest price for their lies. They lose no credibility. They should.
We live in an era where we’ve all been propagandized to believe that the real “lesson” of the boy who cried wolf is that the townspeople were the ones in the wrong, because the 4th time the boy cried wolf he was telling the truth, and yet the townspeople didn’t treat him with the credibility he deserved because anyone who lies might sometimes tell the truth. The “new” lesson of the story is that in a “fair and balanced” good democracy, not only would the townspeople rush in the 4th time to rescue the boy, but they would praise him and reward him because he spoke the truth. And the boy would learn that he could lie with abandon whenever he felt like it, because he will always be treated as credible.
And that is a terrible thing for democracy. One reason we live in an Orwellian time is that the more power you have, the more it is in your self-interest to lie to keep it.
This just isn’t the case, NYC. Every time she posts, sane people pile on. Almost no one here takes the stuff she says about Russia and Ukraine AT ALL seriously. For good reason.
It is Orwellian to start censoring everyone one disagrees with.
Diane has the right to do that because it’s her livingroom, so to speak, but otherwise, nope. Not unless the speech is illegal or presents an eminent danger.
I actually think that it’s HELPFUL to hear what the Putinist propagandists are saying. One learns what needs refuting for the benefit of those who don’t know a lot about this stuff.
There is some guy who calls himself manicmike who was kicked off Diane’s site and has glommed onto mine, where he posts whatever nonsense has floated up in the rightwing blogosphere cesspool. I let it ride or refute it. Mostly, it’s so nutso that it refutes itself, like most of the stuff Dienne says about Russia and Ukraine.
Again, NYC, I don’t understand what you are going on about. NO ONE here thinks her credible on these subjects. Well, almost no one. We do get a few other Putinist trolls.
Bob,
Sorry, I am not talking about censorship. I am talking about credibility checks.
I noticed that our resident Putin defender is given a lot of credibility whenever she posts something on other topics that happens to be true. Putin says some true things, too. So did Hitler. So does Marjorie Taylor Greene. So does Tucker Carlson. It doesn’t matter that they “sometimes” say true things if they also traffic in false realities the other times.
This isn’t about a difference of opinion. I don’t always agree with many commenters here, but I respect that whether I agree with them or not, they are making fact-based arguments. They have credibility.
Bob, this is NOT about someone agreeing with me or not. This is about credibility. If someone here happens to agree with me about public education, but they were repeatedly claiming as “fact” that 90% of the teachers in charter elementary schools were sexually abusing their students, and they doubled down on that no matter what they were told, I would also reject them as not credible on EVERY subject and it doesn’t matter if something they happened to say didn’t include one of the 10 false narratives they usually pushed.
Because if our side needs people who only “sometimes” lie to make our points for us, then we might as well give up right now. Because we are being complicit in ending democracy, not trying to save it.
So yes, I strongly reject the idea that someone who frequently pushes false narratives should ever be presented as credible just because this time their false narrative helps our side or this time they supported our side and they didn’t even have to push any false narratives this time!
It’s a sign that you don’t really believe in what you stand for when you can’t hold the people who support you to a basic standard of truth, ALWAYS. Not just “sometimes”. The Republicans don’t do that. We should. There are plenty of truthful, wonderful folks on our side, like Diane Ravitch. We don’t need those who only tell falsehoods “sometimes”. They have no credibility, so why do we give them credibility by welcoming their comments because sometimes they post something we agree with? I have far more respect for people I don’t agree with who don’t have to push false narratives to support their views.
Who presents her as credible? Here’s what I see happening:
Dienne posts some parroted piece of Russian propaganda
Everyone else, with rare exceptions, says how batshit crazy that is. Saying that something is batshit crazy is not lending it credence. LOL.
Bob,
Is she credible on ANYTHING to you?
If your answer is “she’s credible when she takes a position I agree with and supports that position without false narratives, but not credible when she supports her positions with false narratives” then that is the problem.
Again, it isn’t whether you respond to any one post and call it out. It is whether someone ever loses ALL credibility.
A broken clock isn’t “credible” during the times that it happens to read the correct time. A person who sometimes is truthful and sometimes isn’t is not credible during the times they are truthful. Get a clock that isn’t broken to tell you the correct time. Listen to people who are committed to the truth, not to those who are only committed to truth when it is convenient.
Why would anyone waste their time perusing a broken clock to see if this happens to be the time that the broken clock is telling the correct time? Once you know it is broken, it loses credibility. You stop using it – you don’t keep using it because sometimes it tells the correct time. Same goes with people. And yet we endanger our democracy by somehow giving a pass to people who post false narratives by presenting them as credible during the times they don’t post false narratives. Like broken clocks, they should never be considered credible sources. Credibility isn’t about whether someone agrees with your position. Credibility is whether one can trust anything someone says. “I trust them because they only post false things sometimes and not all the time” is very dangerous to democracy.
There are thousands of reasons why various post-WW2 conflicts were bad for the United States, horrible for the world, and morally questionable. None of this, however, makes any difference to the question of whether the United States and the West has a vested interest in preventing Putin’s adventure in Ukraine.
In the wake of the Soviet Breakup, Ukraine attained independence.
Allowing Russia to change the boundaries of a sovereign nation is just unacceptable. Putin knew this, and knowing this, has found it helpful to bleed the West by an invasion that has taken more turns than a mountain railroad. He has apparently decided that bleeding the West and chasing dissidents out of Russia is worth the cost of life, now estimated to have exceeded 200,000 Russian soldiers. Putin knew the West had no alternative. His move, like the move of a piece on the chessboard, had one counter. The West took the counter move, and has succeeded in supporting Ukriane thus far, despite causing a worldwide inflation that is harming third world countries. For all the reasons Snyder pointed out in this essay, the West had to move against Putin.
One of the things that might come out of a post-Ukraine war is that international rules for tinkering with other governments might gain some credibility. Our support for Franco in 1936 undermined our ability to oppose Hitler. Our support of The Shah undermined our ability to see a friendly, moderate Iran. Behaviors have consequences down the road. That is why the West cannot lose this one. Puti knows it. I just pray that he is not successful, for the sake of many of the small break-off nations of the former Soviet Union. It will be bar the door for every major tyrant in the world. If we cannot beat tyranny abroad, how can we ever maintain freedom at home?
Thanks, Roy. It’s understandable that the strongest opposition to Putin’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine came from former vassal states, like Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia. They don’t want to be subjected to Russian tyranny again.
As President Biden has said, “Not one inch. We will not cede one inch of NATO to the Russians.”
I would emphasize that my own opinion is that the US adventures in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq seriously damaged its ability to respond effectively to this Russian invasion. Moreover, our support for dictators like Mobutu in Zaire, Franco in Spain, and a host of people in Latin America undermines today support for the opposition to Putin.
Indeed, Roy!!! No question about it. We failed, miserably, there to claim the moral high ground. Time to reverse that!
America is the actual target —
PBS’s new Frontline2 documentary on the war in Ukraine shows that the true goal of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is to destroy America as the world’s leading superpower nation.
The way that most nations of the world see the war in Ukraine is that it’s really a war between the United States and Russia, and if Russia takes over Ukraine, then the United States is no longer the world power that all those other nations can rely on.
Russia becomes the new world power that these nations must get in line with or else meet the same fate as Ukraine.
America’s world influence then declines and America’s world trade with other nations declines, leading to a disastrous decline in America’s economy.
Every genuine American should inform themselves by watching this Frontline2 documentary at the YouTube link below.
U.S. LT. GENERAL BEN HODGES — who as leader of the U.S. European Command’s Army forces until his retirement came to know Putin and Putin’s long-range military goals very well — points out that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and gaining control of the Black Sea is only Putin’s first step toward taking over the entire Middle East, thereby threatening the existence of Israel and America’s oil supplies from Saudi Arabia, and setting the stage for triggering World War III unless Russia is decisively driven out of Ukraine, including out of Ukraine’s Crimea region that Russia illegally occupied in 2014.
These Frontline documentaries are outstanding.
Dienne, you are flooding the blog’s comment section. Stop it, or you will be back in moderation. Your parroting of Putin propaganda is tiresome and repetitive. Flood someone else’s blog.
I wrote a year ago that I would not allow the blog to be an outlet for pro-war, pro-Putin propganda. I’m restoring that rule, which I unwisely suspended on the assumption that the facts of Putin’s unprovoked invasion and his continuing brutal effort to destroy Ukraine’s existence as a sovereign nation were abundantly clear. No defense of crimes against humanity allowed here. Defenders of Putin and his war of choice should post elsewhere.