This case will go to the U.S. Supreme Court, which is now packed with justices who want to tear down the “wall of separation” between church and state. Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Barrett, Thomas, and Alito, possibly Roberts, are likely to agree that Maine cannot deny funding to religious schools. Espinosa v. Montana set the stage for the next school funding decision; that ruling said that if a state funded any nonpublic schools, it must all nonpublic–including religious–schools.
FEDERAL APPEALS COURT UPHOLDS MAINE’S DECISION NOT TO SEND PUBLIC EDUCATION FUNDS TO RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS |
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit has rejected a challenge to the state of Maine’s decision not to use public education funding to pay for tuition at private religious schools, preserving Maine’s efforts to prevent public funding of religious education. Public Funds Public Schools filed amicus briefs in the case – Carson v. Makin – to support the Maine law. The Institute for Justice, a group of pro-voucher lawyers behind the Carson v. Makin litigation, has vowed to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to review the First Circuit’s ruling. PFPS will continue to support the law before the U.S. Supreme Court, if necessary. Maine’s constitution, like those in all 50 states, contains an affirmative obligation on the state to maintain and support a system of free public education available to all children. To carry out this mandate, for nearly 150 years the Maine Legislature has permitted local school districts that do not operate their own public schools for geographic or historical reasons to pay tuition to approved, nonsectarian private schools for resident children. Participating private schools must comply with a host of legal requirements to ensure they meet state standards for an appropriate, nondiscriminatory education. The First Circuit rejected prior challenges to the Maine law in 1999 and 2004, and Maine’s highest state court rejected similar claims in 1999 and 2006. In 2018, Institute for Justice lawyers filed yet another lawsuit in the federal courts seeking to overturn Maine’s decision not to include private schools offering religious instruction in the state’s tuition program. In Carson v. Makin, the Institute for Justice argued that recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions, including Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, which upheld a private school voucher program that included religious schools, required overturning Maine’s law. However, the Maine federal district court held that the state’s exclusion of religious schools from the tuition program did not violate the free exercise of religion and other rights guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S Constitution. The PFPS amicus brief to the First Circuit emphasized Maine’s compelling interest under its state constitution in providing a free public education to all Maine children in schools that comply with state standards, including the requirement that they not engage in religious instruction. PFPS further argued that including religious schools would undermine Maine’s carefully limited program designed to provide a publicly funded education in the narrow circumstances where a district-operated secondary school is unavailable. The brief also detailed how including religious schools in the tuition-based program would divert significant funding away from Maine’s already underfunded public schools. Finally, PFPS warned that because religious schools often discriminate based on a student’s religious faith, disability, sexual orientation and other factors, including these schools in the tuition program would entangle Maine in regulating matters of religion or result in using taxpayer dollars to fund discrimination. The First Circuit’s opinion upholding the Maine law explained that: “[g]iven limited public funds, the state’s rural character, and the concomitant scarcity of available public school options for residents of many [districts], we do not see why the Free Exercise Clause compels Maine either to forego relying on private schools to ensure that its residents can obtain the benefits of a free public education or to treat pervasively sectarian education as a substitute for it.” “The First Circuit’s ruling is a powerful affirmation of Maine’s longstanding decision not to use limited taxpayer dollars to pay tuition at schools that do not provide a secular education meeting state standards to all children, free from discrimination,” said Jessica Levin, ELC Senior Attorney and PFPS Director. “We stand ready to push back efforts to divert Maine’s public funds to religious schools.” For more information on voucher litigation and PFPS amicus briefs, visit the Litigation page of the PFPS website. Press Contact:Sharon KrengelPolicy and Outreach DirectorEducation Law Center60 Park Place, Suite 300Newark, NJ 07102973-624-1815, ext. 24skrengel@edlawcenter.org |
Shame. If you require that private schools cannot employ racist policies or abscond with public funds, you take away their motivation for being. Shame. CBK
I guess it leaves no choice but ending funding of all non-public schools.
Amazing. Off topic.
I have looked into the biographies of Biden’s 20 experts in education– entries from LinkedIn, their current organizations, and less often Wikipedia.
–Of these
15 have no documented Pre-k to12 teaching experience.
14 held positions in Obama’s administration with nine of these in the US Department of Education (USDE). Two worked at USDE before Obama.
10 are lawyers.
7 have supported charter schools, here indicated by*
Also lurking here are Billionaire supporters of failed educational reforms.
LEADER: Linda Darling-Hammond.* CEO Learning Policy Institute. See Wikipedia. Of interest: Co-founded a preschool/day care center and Early College High charter school serving low-income students of color in East Palo Alto, California, a community where only a third of students were graduating and almost none were going onto college. The high school admits students by lottery. More than 90 percent of its graduates are ready for college. Linda Darling-Hammond, is the subject of video interviews conducted in her home by Amrein-Beardsley. I recommend them. Be sure to scan down for the first video /inside-the-academy/linda-darling-hammond This archive also has video interviews with Diane Ravitch, Howard Gardner, Elliot Eisner and others.
UNION CONNECTIONS: American Federation of Teachers and National Education Association.
–Donna Harris-Aikens. Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Senior Director of Education Policy and Practice NEA (14 years). Prior work at NEA on ESEA. Former Policy Manager for Service Employees International Union.
–Beth Antunez, No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Deputy Director, Government Relations for AFT. Previously ATF Assistant Director for educational issues especially community school initiatives.
–Shital Shah, No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Manager of Philanthropic Engagement at AFT. Other AFT positions for 18 years, most of these in community engagement. Other youth and public heath work, including Peace Corps in Honduras.
–Marla Ucelli-Kashyap. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Assistant to the AFT President for Educational Issues. Former Director of District Redesign and Leadership at the Annenberg Institute for School Reform at Brown University and senior program officer at the Rockefeller Foundation. Member, Advisory Council for “Education Reimagined,” devoted to “Personalized learning that is competency-based and has a wide range of learning environments and adult roles.” https://education-reimagined.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Vision_Website.pdf
UNION and OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SERVICE
–Robert Kim. Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. John Jay College of Criminal Justice; writer and consultant on legal, policy, and civil rights issues in education. Senior Title IX EEO investigator. Former Obama Deputy Assistant Secretary for Strategic Operations and Outreach, USDE. Senior Policy Analyst, NEA. Co-author, “Education and the Law, 5th ed.” (West Academic Publishing, 2019) and “Legal Issues in Education: Rights and Responsibilities in U.S. Public Schools Today” (2017). Early legal service for ACLU, and Legal Aid.
–Ruthanne Buck. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. A Senior Advisor to U.S. Secretaries of Education John King and Arne Duncan for educator outreach and engagement. Previously Assistant to AFT President for Special Projects and National Field Director at AFT. Led major field and political operations on progressive issues, agencies and candidates.
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION (* indicates some connection to charter schools)
–Ary Amerikaner, Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Vice President for P-12 Policy, Practice, and Research at the Education Trust. Obama’s Deputy Assistant Secretary of Education. The Education Trust operates four offices coast to coast and makes recommendations for federal and state policy. These recommendations have treated ESSA as a civil rights mandate to be followed, with no testing waivers. The Trust wants to expand Civil Rights Data Collection reports on school crime and discipline, also AP courses (for the College Board?). The Trust wants to see the present ban on a “student unit record system” lifted. That would please Bill Gates and allow federal data-collection on individual students in any post-secondary program–including their SS numbers, income tax records and more. See https://dianeravitch.net/2017/01/07/stop-our-government-wants-to-create-a-national-database-about-everyone-including-your-children/ and https://edtrust.org/press-release/opportunities-to-advance-educational-equity-during-the-next-administration/.
–James Kvaal,* Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. President, The Institute for College Access & Success, a non-profit treating issues of student debt. Obama’s White House Deputy Director of Domestic Policy and Deputy Under Secretary USDE. Prior work as consultant for Achieving the Dream (a network of community colleges), America Achieves (Common Core), Annie E. Casey Foundation (Read by Grade Three), College Board (David Coleman), the Harvard Government Performance Lab, Results for America and others. The Institute for College Access & Success has six senior fellows from the Obama administration and lists 220 “partners” devoted to evidence-based policies and “what works.” Partners include Teach for America, Teach Plus, The New Teacher Center, charter school franchises (KIPP, IDEA, Green Dot, and YesPrep). Billionaires fund the Institute: Arnold Ventures (John D. and Laura Arnold hedge funds), the Ballmer Group (a nonprofit co-founded by former CEO of Microsoft Steve Ballmer), the S.D. Bechtel, Jr Foundation, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Bloomberg Philanthropies, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, Edna McConnell Clark Foundation (funded expansion of Green Dot charter schools), William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, and Schmidt Futures (former Google CEO Eric Schmidt’s philanthropy)
–Emma Vadehra.Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Senior fellow, The Century Foundation, also a non-resident Senior Fellow at the charter-friendly Center For American Progress. Executive Director of Next100, a Century Foundation incubator for next generation policy leaders. Obama’s Deputy Assistant Secretary in USDE’s Office of Planning, Evaluation, Policy Development. Also Chief of Staff for Obama’s USDE serving John B. King Jr. and Arne Duncan. Former Chief of Staff at Uncommon Schools, a charter school management organization.
–Keia Cole. Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Head of Digital Experience at MassMutual, an insurance company. Obama’s Associate General Counsel and Chief of Staff to Deputy Secretary of USDE. Responsible for providing strategic direction for USDE’s financial, technology, human capital, and risk management operations. First work at Morgan Stanley’s Investment Banking Division, specialist in financial analysis of media and communications companies. For less than a year she was an Education Pioneers Fellow at KIPP San Jose Collegiate charter school, not as a teacher.
–Roberto Rodriguez.* No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. President and CEO of Teach Plus, operates in 11 states to supply charter school teachers. Obama’s Deputy Assistant to the President for Education. Claims credit for contributions to ESSA, STEM, higher education standards. Rodriguez claims credit for bipartisan work on No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act of 2004, among other major bills. Advisor on education for Unidos US, the nation’s largest Latino civil rights and advocacy organization. Serves on the Board of Directors for the Alliance for Excellent Education, The Achievement Network (promoter of charter schools), the Bainum Family Foundation and Strive Together’s data-mongering Cradle to Career Network.
–Kristina Ishmael. In Nebraska, she taught ELL students for two years and Kindergarten and 2nd Grade for four years. Director of Primary and Secondary Education at Open Education Global (less than a year), in charge of adoptions of Open Educational Resources world-wide. Open Education fellow in Obama’s USDE Office of Educational Technology (2016-2017). Former manager of the Teaching, Learning, & Tech team at New America. Digital learning specialist for the Nebraska Department of Education for four years.
–Lindsay Dworkin. Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Director, Policy Development and State Government Relations at Alliance for Excellent Education. Obama’s Deputy Assistant Secretary for Outreach USDE (2016-2017). Legal work in Delaware for the former Governor and State Treasurer of Delaware Jack Markell. The Alliance (All4Ed) advocates for evidence-based instructional practices, and college and career pathways in 40 states and specific federal educational policies. A major Alliance project, Future Ready Schools, is active in 30 states pushing for digital access to “anytime, anywhere, personalized learning.” Superintendents in over 3400 districts have signed the Bill Gates inspired “pledge” at https://dashboard.futurereadyschools.org/pledge/
–Paul Monteiro, Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Assistant Vice President of External Affairs, Howard University. Previously Chief of Staff for Howard University’s President. Former Acting Director of the Community Relations Service, Obama’s Department of Justice (one year, 4 months), National Director of AmeriCorps VISTA. Public Engagement Advisor to White House on Arab Americans, faith communities, anti-poverty groups, and gun safety organizations. Deputy Director of Religious Affairs for Presidential Inauguration Committee including the National Prayer Service at the Washington National Cathedral. Two year appointee, Board of Education Prince George County Public Schools. Adjunct Professor, University of Maryland for three years.
USDE WORK prior to OBAMA
-Norma Cantu University of Texas at Austin, Chair Department of Educational Administration, former US Assistant Secretary of Education 1993-2001. (Position misidentified on Biden’s list)
OTHER
–Jessica Cardichon. Lawyer. An upper elementary teacher in NYC for nearly seven years. Director of Learning Policy Institute’s DC office. Leads the Institute’s federal legislative and regulatory strategy. Co-leads LPI’s teams on state policy, member of LPI’s teams on Educator Quality, Deeper Learning, Equitable Resources and Access and Early Childhood Education. Authored reports on the Federal role in school discipline, and taking advantage of ESSA’s policies. Education Counsel to Senator Bernie Sanders, and Senior Director for Federal Policy and Advocacy, Alliance for Excellent Education.
–Jim Brown.* Lawyer. No evident Pre-k to12 teaching. Former Chief of Staff for Pennsylvania Governor Robert P. Casey and Pennsylvania Secretary of General Services. At U.S. House of Representatives, served as Staff Director and General Counsel for the Subcommittee on Oversight of the Committee on Banking, Finance and Urban Affairs (now the Committee on Financial Services). Jim is co-founder of a company that manages over $800 million in venture capital. He is a trustee of Immaculata University, the Gesu Catholic School (K-12) and Young Scholars Charter School in Philadelphia. He is Chair of the Board of Directors of the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education Foundation.
–Margaret R (Peggy) McLeod. In her native Puerto Rico, she taught in two Montessori schools and owned a center that provided afterschool services to students with disabilities. Served as ESL teacher in DC. Currently Deputy Vice President of Education and Workforce Development, National Council of La Raza. Previously Executive Director, Student services, Alexandria (VA) City Public Schools. Assistant Superintendent for Special Education, District of Columbia (DC), also in DC, the Title III director, Office of Bilingual Education, Title VII coordinator, and bilingual program developer. A member of the National Board of Education Sciences since 2010.
—Pedro A. Rivera. Extent of classroom experience not found. President of Thaddeus Stevens College of Technology in Lancaster, PA since August 2020. Former five-year Secretary of Education, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania aiding the adoption of a funding formula for basic education; a performance measure for schools (Future Ready PA Index), and a school improvement strategy. Former Executive Director for the School District of Philadelphia, former Superintendent of the School District of Lancaster, PA, classroom teacher, assistant principal, principal.
Laura, you are, as upper class in Britain might say, a treasure. An atheist’s “bless you” to you!
Diane, if this comment is not worth a post of its own, what is?
There’s very good reason to worry that the right-of-center Biden-Harris Administration Department of Education is going to be as awful as Obama or Trump’s was. It’s too late to do anything about it now though.
Robert,
It is risky to say this, but I’ll say it anyway.
Something very basic has changed in our society. From the election of FDR until the election of Ike in 1952, the country was basically center-left. The Democratic Party was the majority and held the majority in the House of Representatives even during the tenure of Republican presidents. Was it 1994 when Republicans finally took control of the House?
The fact that a fraud like Trump could be elected, and then come perilously close to re-election shows me that Democrats are no longer perceived as the party of working people or farmers or even the middle class.
And this is the part I say hesitantly: If the Democrats had nominated a progressive leader like Bernie, Trump would have demonized him as a Communist and smeared him day after day. And Trump would have won. As it was, he tried to call Biden a socialist and a radical lefty, and some people (especially Cuban Americans) believed him. We have seen comments on this blog calling Biden a communist. Really.
The 1950s live again.
This is why it is vital that moderate, progressive, and liberal voters turn out in Georgia and elect two Democratic senators in January 2021
The fight won’t end there. Every time we have an election, it will be another balance of power between GOP fascism and Democratic progressivism.
I read a piece yesterday that the fascist, always lying and manipulating corrupt Trump-GOP coliseum of crime saturated Florida with ADS painting Biden as an evil Socialist. The author of the piece said that the misleading propaganda campaign may have tipped the scales in Trump’s favor in Florida.
Aren’t the US Senate elections in 2020? 🤔
I saw the “anti-socialist” Biden ads here in Florida. They claimed Biden will turn the US into Cuba or Venezuela. There were other lies as well. “Biden will raise your taxes and take away your guns. Lawless mobs will overrun your neighborhood.” These ads were full of bold faced lies that I am sure many conservatives in my area believed.
When the Catholic schools are all gone, how will public schools absorb all those students? 🤔
Eddie why would they be gone . . . they just need to follow the rules that public schools have to follow and not drink so much at the public trough. BTW, it’s different in different states, but that’s how it’s been for years at least for many Catholic schools. Private school, whether Catholic or not, like Montessori, for instance, need not go away merely because they are not publicly funded. CBK
Catherine King, they have been merging or closing, in Chicago for many years. 🤔
Why should Catholic schools disappear? In the 1960s, with no public funding, they had more than twice as many students as now. Their biggest challenge is that they no longer have the free labors of Sisters and Brothers.
They’re always merging or closing, in Cook and Lake Counties, IL. 😐
I think charter schools have drained a lot of students away from them in the last couple decades, too.
True, FLERP. Big fish eat small fish.
And “free” beats “not-free” hands down for a lot of charter parents who 20 years ago might have chosen Catholic schools.
Flerp, you might be correct. 😐
Depending on area, there’s Lutheran, Christian, Jewish, Muslin, secular and other private schools. 😐
Catholic schools are closing because many younger people are rejecting mythical sky-daddy thinking.
Hey, you want to believe that for yourself, go right ahead. But don’t even think about claiming that type of fantastical thinking is good for a plural society. Now if you want an xtian theocracy, it’s fine. But that is not what the USA is about.
And no CBK, that’s not “hateful atheist” talk. It’s reality not fantasy. Faith belief is not a good basis for our pluralistic society.
The day this country elects an atheist to the presidency is the day this country can truly be considered free. Until then. . . more fantastical mythological thinking from the person in the White House
So pedophile lawsuits against certain clergy members isn’t a factor, regarding closures and mergers of Catholic schools in Chicago and suburban Cook County? 🤔
I don’t know about Chicago. I would think that those are a factor, though.
In other education news, the nation’s largest school system (NYC) is almost certainly going to shut down completely on Monday, with no plan on how or when to reopen.
It’s happening in Chicago. 😐
We seem to have at least partial “pillarisation” such as the Netherlands long had— “the separation of a society into groups by religion and associated political beliefs.” Each with its own social orgs, schools, political parties, labor orgs, media et al [in Netherlands & Belgium, even lang diffs]. Netherlands’ 70-yr “school struggle” led them to amend their Constitution in 1917, guaranteeing equal funding to public and religious schools. Today they call the non-public-but-publicly-funded privates “special schools”: mostly religious, but including schools run per a certain ideology, philosophy, or pedagogical theory.
We too have had our ‘school struggle,’ but it has only been recognized legally in Civil Rights laws of ‘60’s, & since ‘90’s via charter & voucher laws. So let’s look to Netherlands to see how one could do this better– if we are forced to continue on this path by SCOTUS.
70% of Dutch schools are “special”! They are only slightly similar to US charters or vouchers. Similar in the sense that they’re technically private but publicly-funded. Different in most ways. They rise out of community/ parent wants & needs [no commercial chains marketing them into existence, not imposed by any govt entity]. Fed control is much in evidence. Communities wanting to start “specials” are hand-held through founding & first couple of years by reps of fed dept of ed. Fed dictates broad curriculum framework, & nationally-standardized testing [3 tests during grades 1-8, and 2 or 3 in 12th to graduate]—but as in Finland, curricular & pedagogical details are the responsibility of teachers. Fed reps inspect all the schools every few yrs & monitors those that seem borderline. The local boards that govern the “specials” have to have parent & community members. The teachers are mostly unionized [just 30% publics, but 70% teachers in unions], & must be paid to union scale regardless. The per-pupil allotment is equal across publics & specials, except that proportionally more goes to areas w/ concentration of SpEd &/or poor students.
We are very different from the Netherlands. Mainly in size [/ ease of fed admin]. Not so much in homogeneity: they have a long history of accommodating a constant moving target of ethnic mixing, as a centuries-old trade hub. However, their SES is more evenly distributed.
Is the Netherlands ed model possible for US? We could perhaps achieve this sort of flexible national standards framework and minimized national testing. But the big stumbling block is funding. Ours is not federally centralized, which means any federal ed mandate will eventually be challenged. Fed essentially leaves poorer states hanging, ed-wise, despite Title I. We like to say our biggest problem is pegging school-quality to property taxes, & that’s a big issue in wealthier states. But we already have at least 16 red [poorer] states where over 50% of K-12 pubsch cost is borne by state. Those states use that prerogative toward austerity and privatization.
So someone’s tax dollars should go to private religious schools/indoctrination that they don’t believe in nor otherwise support?
Nope!
Duane I’m glad to see you back.
The big HOWEVER, however, is that “sky-daddy thinking” is your strawman . . . not my religious thought; and I’m disappointed at such a childlike characterization of world traditions that I know are not what you think they are.
You are an atheist, then you must be like Stalin? or like others who hate religious people and practices, who murder without conscience, and who use others as dupes to get what they want, but who have no moral standards or principles? I doubt it.
Anyone can define anything complex by what is worst about it–I call that a form of ignorance–in doing so, you will have, at best, a distorted view of it and, at its worst, you will spread those distortions as truth to others who might believe you. In my view, that makes you a blight on honest and reasonable discussions. Try a different method that matches your “better angels.” CBK
No, it’s not a strawman. It’s an attempt (perhaps not as good as it could be) at being wry and sardonic to show how a different point of view can make those “world traditions” (as if that makes absurdities okay) appear quite different than the proponents declare.
It’s certainly not a “form of ignorance”. Perhaps I’ve not gotten my main point across: That indoctrinating children with patently absurd faith beliefs-heaven, hell, god, angels, etc. . . and demanding that everyone respect and honor them is the basis for much of our current mess when it comes to truth in public discourse. If one believes those things, it’s far more easy for one to believe that whatever Trump says is true. Why is it that it’s mostly self-identified religious people are the strongest backers of him? Because they’ve already been acclimated to nonsense and absurdities in their faith beliefs. A faith belief lacks rationo-logical coherency. But hey, go ahead and have those faith beliefs (and I don’t limit faith beliefs to just religious beliefs-ghosts, spirits, etc. . . are also in that category.)
Again I see projection on your part with “that makes you a blight on honest and reasonable discussion”. I am not the one proposing absurdities. You’ve got it turned around. But that is nothing new. I’ve observed that sort of thing from faith believers since I was a child and started questioning what was being attempted to pound into my head by the Catholic Church.
I agree that anyone can believe what they want FOR THEMSELVES, however, absurd faith beliefs are not a good basis for citizens in discussing the political/social life in America.
Duane It seems to me like experience-driven pessimism . . . and your own experience, which I don’t doubt was awful, but inappropriately spread to all of us and over the world as if yours were the ONLY experience of religious inquiry or consciousness . . . it’s not . . . or that from an early necessarily-childlike understanding of what is ultimately mysterious to us all cannot develop into intelligent and qualified inquiry and faith life . . . in a secular political environment . . . it can and has.
I really remember liking you and your posts from your earlier time on this blog. But I ask that you look beyond your also-childlike disappointment in the Catholic Church and put the above in your thinker, please? CBK
It’s not a “child-like disappointment with the Catholic Church. I learned a lot during my K-12 Catholic schooling, some designed curriculum and other the unspoken curriculum. I have no particular beef against the church except that it pushes fairy tales, mythologies and absurdities-I’m eating the body and blood of Christ at Communion. Again you have lost the point of my posting which is that when you brainwash/indoctrinate children from an early age with nonsense, most will accept that nonsense as truth when it’s not. Your attempt to put me down is both risible and ludicrous. But I expect that from faith-believers like yourself.
I’m am thoroughly convinced that that brainwashing/indoctrination so prevalent in society manifests itself in so many ways–believing that standardized tests actually measure something, that we need standards when we got along just fine without them, that it’s okay for our president to be a lying, cheating conman, and on and on. The foundation for those later in life faith-beliefs-fantastical beliefs that are immune to rationo-logical scrutiny were laid into most when they were children.
Duane And you think your earlier posts, and even this last one, are not offensive? . . . you couldn’t even clean the last one up:
“Again you have lost the point of my posting which is that when you brainwash/ indoctrinate children from an early age with nonsense, most will accept that nonsense as truth when it’s not. Your attempt to put me down is both risible and ludicrous. But I expect that from faith-believers like yourself.”
And then this: ” I have no particular beef against the church except that it pushes fairy tales, mythologies and absurdities-I’m eating the body and blood of Christ at Communion.” Maybe you should read up on the fuller meaning of this and other rich Church symbolism.
As a technical educational note, young children understand best through stories and images, in a community of other children–it’s how they learn at the beginning of a long journey of intellectual, moral, social, and spiritual development. Only later, when they develop, can they address their spiritual concerns in an adult way, when they are prepared to understand more fully. The Christian stories are just that . . . a way to communicate meaning to children through story and rich mythology . . . but the stories hold concrete ideas that, only later, can be “put away” as childish things, and transposed into ways to approach the mysteries of living, the beyond, and time out of time.
Perhaps it’s your fuller understanding that’s missing rather than the idea that the church is “pushing fairy tales, mythologies and absurdities.” We all have times of renewal in our lives. Maybe this is yours. CBK
I stand by what I have written.
Again, I see nothing but xtian apologetics in your response. The problem with your “technical education note” is that faith belief proponents do not, for the most part push people towards the questioning of those things. Quite the opposite, when one does question those faith beliefs one is ostracized.
And no, it’s not a “time of renewal”, perhaps a more secular sounding way of saying a Saul to Paul conversion. Well, it’s not, this is nothing new for me, it’s just I have decided to vocalize my thoughts, thoughts that in the past I knew would draw the ire and disdain of faith believers because to challenge the Abrahamic sky daddy god which is, indeed, considered blasphemous by those faith believers and we know how that ended up for those non faith believers in the past-not pretty. At least one has the protection of laws in these days to be able to challenge faith beliefs, and how you describe said beliefs.
Quite frankly, I expected your responses and the way you present them in such a “calm reasoned” fashion to come across as the erudite one. Nothing new from a faith believer perspective.
And that perspective is condescending “Oh, look at what the heathen is saying, look how crude it is. I’m being soooo rational and calm.” Horse manure-it’s a pseudo calmness. Seen the dog and pony show that produces that manure many times before. You have been captured by those fantastical stories and are still stuck in them as most who have been indoctrinated are.
I stand by what I write.
Duane,
I certainly agree with you that public tax dollars should never support religious schools. I believe in separation of church and state.
I also believe that everyone has the right in this democracy to hold their own religious beliefs, or non-belief.
I respect your right to be an atheist. I also respect the right of others to adhere to their own religions.
Live and let live.
I agree with what you say. My purpose is to point out the absurdities of faith beliefs as a foundational mode of being which is what it is for around 75% of the population of this country.. It allows for other absurdities to abound as those beliefs defy rationo-logical scientific thought.
Is there a way to understand that the the indoctrination of almost all into religious tenets is a precursor for many, not all, to believe many other falsehoods as proposed by someone like Trump? Is there not a connection?
People will believe what they want and that is great for the individual. Are absurd faith beliefs a sound basis for a pluralistic society? I say no.
Hmm, I think you two took this in a way different direction. I think I was trying to show how, well, if we have to live with tax-funded religious schools– for x# decades because of an atrociously “religious-freedom”-stacked SCOTUS– what can we do about it? Right now, charter- &/or voucher-happy states use them to pawn off crummy education on poor kids, & even crummier ed on the poorer kids left behind in the publics. All part of the neoliberal approach: privatization in support of the general principle of cutting ed & all public goods down to the bone– overhead costs one cannot afford when competing w/3rd-world labor, ostensibly [basically just OH big corps don’t want to pay for, period: justified by zombie trickle-down economics].
Netherlands shows how a nation devoted to funding hi-qual K12 across the board manages to do it despite a crazyquilt of publicly-funded publics, religious schools, Montessoris, etc etc [their “special schools” are 60% religious, 40% “other”]. We’re not them, & we can’t do what they’ve done. But it shows a direction to head in: equal per-pupil funding, all union or union-scale teacher pay, schools run by parents/ community members not corporate boards, minimum standards maintained by govt.
We can always fantasize about the day when Dems have House & Senate majority, step up to the plate and install another few Justices to right the balance, & promptly sue a bunch of states to get rid of publicly-funded religious schools.
Duane-
Thank you for writing your opinions.
Don’t believe the negative comments written at this blog about your observations.
The same commenters trolled me, wrote I was ignorant, misquoted me, falsely charged me with being a Trump supporter, described me as anti-religious and as being against every Catholic, likened me to Hitler when he attacked Jews and, planted the suspicion that I was a Russian troll, …all because I warned about the political influence of the Catholic Church and the Knights of Columbus.
It is the duty of Americans to shed light as you have and, to expose the alliance between the anti-abortion campaign which was built and is fed in Christian churches, and billionaires who use it to install authoritarian GOP governance.
A state Democratic Party chair had the courage yesterday to call out the thinly-veiled Trump support of a Nevada Catholic bishop who stoked fear in his congregation about 2020 voter fraud.
Linda Remember? It’s the constant harangue of one-sided notes and innuendo . . . But you’ve never understood that. CBK
Hey, Kibda, I never called you any of those bad things. I’m opposed to far-right Protestants, Catholics, and Jews. They should all be ashamed for putting their agendas above the common good. Biden’s a good Catholic but is not narrow minded. He was denied communion by a southern priest. I’m against narrow minded people of all persuasions. Live and let live.
Linda: I for one value your evidential input on this subject. Even here after your poor-me speech, you provided another timely nugget. As always, you provided enough info that I could find the details online without difficulty. I will continue to challenge snark, by which I mean gratuitously attributing a public figure’s political position to their having attended a Catholic prep or college, or simply have an Irish surname and five kids.
Duane: you have not « shed light” as Linda says. You used the word “absurd” 8 times in two posts to characterize spiritual beliefs, and charge their holders with self-evident vulnerability to falsehoods in general– Trump lies and rationo-logical scientific thought(!) in particular. This is an astounding conclusion to reach about “almost all” of US. Keep in mind that even in this big turnout year, a grand total of 67% of voting age are projected to have actually voted. So Trump’s [so far—dwindling w/the count] 48% = 32% of US adults. How many of them are “indoctrinated” with religion, 80% [26% of US adults]? You see my point. Meanwhile if it eases your mind, Pew (as of a year ago) tracks self-professed Christians down from 77% to 65%, and non-religious up from 17% to 26%.
Catherine: You jumped all over Duane’s brief response in a really over-the-top way.
Bethree5 I though I was rather nice. CBK
Bethree
The intent of my listing was to identify the breath of tactics used to discourage commenters from voicing their opinions.
There’s a pattern of protecting religion from scrutiny both here and in the wider community. When the Koch’s Paul Weyrich co-founded the political religious right, it became a watershed moment for the nation’s unity and advancement to enlightenment.
IMO, the nation would have accepted homosexuality and women’s equal rights before now, if not for religious opposition. Destruction of common goods and democracy and, concentration of wealth would not have gained ground but for their advocacy by religious organizations and clergy.
I acknowledge that Diane disagrees. I have no feeling of “poor me”.
I appreciate your statement about evidential input.
Bethreefive:
Yes, I purposely used absurd many times. Repetition to drive the point home. And yes, the figures I use are guestimates, not straight “facts” as those “facts” don’t exist per se, but ones that show the enormity of the problem.
No critique here of my main contention which is that by indoctrinating young children throughout their childhood with mythologies, fantasies and, yes, absurdities we set them up to accept other mythologies, fantasies and absurdities in all other realms of their lives. We teach them to accept without question, or with questioning only within certain prescribed boundaries by the “authorities” (whether secular or religious) which limits their ability to then critically analyze new information, systems, statements, etc. . . .
So for me, it’s not at all strange, unusual that so many have accepted the mythologies, fantasies and absurdities that Trump has spewed forth. We can’t expect them to critically look at those falsehoods because they have been taught to, perhaps look, but not see, certainly not to question the dear leader (again whether secular or religious and Trump appears to want to be both of those).
I’m still working through this thought, what I consider to be a matter of fact in our society and how to put it to words (which also explains why I seemingly am repeating myself.) But I know that my contention certainly comes into play in discussing the various “reforms” (that are absurd on their face) that have been mandated and that have harmed so many, but especially students and teachers. Far too many accept without question, and I believe that attitude comes mainly from having been indoctrinated into that attitude through the faith belief process. Accept the “reform” absurdities or risk alienation, shunning and/or professional standing.
And the ones who pay the ultimate price are the students and their learning.
Linda,
Thanks for the kind words. And yes, those of us who question authority (remember the bumper stickers way back when), especially religious authority, are a small minority. As I’ve stated before; We will know that true freedom and liberty has obtained in this country when an atheist is elected president. How many atheists are there in the House, Senate, the White House and/or the Supreme Court? None that I know of and if there is one she/he keeps it very quiet.
I’ve had a number of people tell me I should run for school board, state rep or another political office. I tell them “Too many skeletons in the closet.” The biggest skeleton being the fact that I don’t believe in the sky-daddy nonsense or that the Bible is necessarily a good guide to moral living. Guaranteed I could never get elected!
May the FSMSD* bless America!
Yeah, I’m ornery like that because I’m sick and tired of faith believers shoving their religious nonsense down the throats of everyone.
FSMSD = Flying Spaghetti Monster Sky Daddy
Duane-
It’s anathema for a person in America to have reason to expect a lack of votes because he doesn’t check a box for religion. I’m saddened that the public square will not benefit from your expertise.
What you have observed is important. Research found more voters who don’t cite religious belief, vote Democratic and, more who do cite belief, vote Republican. I firmly believe that, of the two major parties,
Democrats present a better plan forward for the nation.
Until now, I have largely avoided any discussions that go beyond religion’s political impact. I don’t have facts for the following but, IMO, it seems likely, IN GENERAL TERMS, that either the development of an individual’s religious beliefs makes him/her less receptive to rational thinking or, individuals who fancy suspension of logic and/or value emotional response more than analytical response are attracted to religion.
A study that examined the reactions of the faithful to perceived threats to their religion, beyond tribalism, would be interesting.
Vitriol in comment threads here and in the broader community is “over the top”.
Linda Finally, some clear truth, and we all should give credit where credit is due.
You write: “Vitriol in comment threads here and in the broader community is ‘over the top’.”
On that truth, Duane of course is a sweetheart. And you don’t harbor and regularly spew a deep sense of hate for all things Catholic. CBK
Duane “Quite the opposite, when one does question those faith beliefs one is ostracized.”
That’s never been my experience. I’ve been around several religious institutions, Catholic and evangelical, for a very long time and all have groups within them that welcome and even encourage members to air their doubts and to raise serious questions about their faith as well as Church doctrine. The context is usually, not always, quite civil and even loving. THAT makes a huge difference in the quality of the dialogue.
I believe that you are not lying about your experience. I just think none of us should define the whole by it. So I offer you mine.
To me, the other stuff in your note is just more falderal. CBK
Catherine,
“And you don’t harbor and regularly spew a deep sense of hate for all things Catholic.”
Do I have to pay you for that wonderful insight into my feelings? “deep sense of hate for . . . ” Right! You see that burr in your arse, me, must be digging into your conscience, eh. It’s sticking in your craw and you are doing the best to fight it with supposedly “playing nice in the sandbox” tactics.
You see two can play the “I know what the other is feeling” game. And just as your wrong about that supposed hate, which is really a reasoned disdain for the mythical, fantastical, ABSURD (couldn’t resist myself bethreefive on that one) societal practice of inculcating that nonsense into children, I am wrong to tell you how “I must be digging into your conscience.” The feeling game, the hate you say I have, and as the consternation I facetiously ascribed to you, is as fantastical and mythical as faith beliefs.
Perhaps my contention that indoctrinating children with faith beliefs making them more likely to hold other faith type beliefs-like the ability to discern and ascribe to others their feelings is correct? You have conveniently left out that I have said that overall my K-12 Catholic education was good and I learned a lot and got some wonderful learning opportunities-doesn’t seem hateful to me. Seems like exactly what a faith believer does-ignore the arguments against that faith belief and use only what supports one’s views while imputing other’s intentions and emotions. I don’t buy that suave snake oil.
Duane I meant that all-things-Catholic-hate thing to Linda . . . sorry if that didn’t come across. Maybe you haven’t been on the site to see it. Maybe the rest of the “vitriol” will just disappear into cyberspace. CBK
Thanks for the clarification. Generally I enjoyed my K-12 Catholic education, it’s that from an early age, 7th-8th I rejected the dogma.
Duane
The “hate” charge is as false if it applies to me as it is, if it applies to you.
The nation’s values are hobbled by religion’s politicking and its alliances with despots e.g. Charles Koch.
I’ve deduced that reporting the frequency of wrongdoing by evangelicals is fine. But, the other major conservative religion must be treated with kid gloves.
Linda You have it backwards. Instead of “hands off” on my part, my point has been that constantly and in almost every post you have portrayed Catholics and Catholicism as the central if not the only cause of whatever political disorder is at issue, even when differences are not related, you dig up some Catholic influence in someone’s background and complex context need not have its influence–but portrayed as innuendo, GOTCHA! . . . the problems MUST be because of the person’s zombie Catholic influence.
Also, I have never said or meant “hands off” Catholicism. On the contrary, I have often said that I agree with many of your complaints and called them truths. The problem is that, in your hands, the truths become swollen WAY out of proportion taking over all other contexts of meaning and, from anyone who understands even a little about Catholics, your omissions are legion, regular, and obvious.
That’s why, to me, it looks less like good amateur journalism and much more like obsessive contempt and even hate of “all things Catholic.” CBK
Biden 306 😁
Trump 232
Thanks for posting the quote.
YEP!
Especially absurd faith beliefs, eh CBK!
Yeah, I’m an ornery SOB at times.