Do not normalize school shootings as an everyday occurrence caused by too many doors, video games, Ritalin, or other inconsequential things.
CNN reports that the U.S. rate of school shootings far outpaces all other major industrialized nations combined.
“There have been at least 288 school shootings in the United States since January 1, 2009.
“That’s 57 times as many shootings as the other six G7 countries combined.”
See the graph.
At some point, the politicians will have to see that the problem is not theoretical. It is not Ritalin or video games or abortion or something else.
It is too many guns, easily obtained, easily accessible. Available to any teen who is depressed or angry or has a grudge. Instead of settling scores with a fist fight, he comes to school and kills people.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Interesting, but l’d like to see a study on how the U.S. does on school shootings as compared to the most violent nations in the world. I think we’d still have a stellar ranking. USA, USA!
The link says they hope to expand the list to the most violent.
The caveat: Reporting on non-fatal school shootings is not always available. There may be additional school shootings with injuries that did not make it into the newspaper or digital publications, and therefore aren’t counted in databases that rely on media reports. This is true for shootings in the US and elsewhere.
And this does not count the teens who have been killed by guns outside of school in the US and elsewhere, including suicides, gang driveways, and so on, and on, and on.
I am not certain that the body and wounded count will matter at all to the gun lobby, not enough to take some responsibility.
Here’s a piece: “Regulate Weapons Like We Do in the Military, Says an Army Officer”
“In the Army, firearms are stored under lock, key, and sometimes guard, and god help you if one goes missing—the post shuts down and a frenzied search bordering on a religious quest begins. After basic training, soldiers are required to go through a few hours of refresher training with practical drills before they are even allowed on a range for individual shooting qualification. These are ranges that are heavily monitored, with a monumental emphasis on safety.
“What might be shocking to people who have not been around the military is that if a soldier cannot qualify with his weapon, he is not allowed to carry or shoot it on live-fire exercises or downrange.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2018/03/an-army-officer-says-regulate-weapons-just-like-we-do-in-the-military/554816/
But it is totally fine for the post-PTSD former military, now trigger happy police officers to carry a loaded weapon around.
That is a totally idiotic biased stereotypical comment from an ignorant want-to-be rabble-rouser.
“now trigger-happy police officers to carry a loaded weapon around”
I think I know who BackAgain is. It’s Trump. This is the kind of idiocy that Trump spouts all the time.
There are more than one-million public (not private) police officers in the United States.
According to the Washington Post, there were 987 people shot and killed by police in 2017. 987 victims of a fraction of 1.1 million full-time public police officers. That breaks down to 0.089 percent of the total number of police were allegedly “trigger happy”.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
How many police officers were involved in shootouts in 2017 … a thousand, 1500, 2,000?
Even 2,000 police officers involved in those 987 fatalities only represents 0.18 percent of the total number of full-time police officers.
And are you inferring that any former combat troops with PTSD are all “trigger happy”?
If you are, you know nothing about PTSD … NOTHING!
USA Today published a piece about combat vets becoming police officers.
“The majority of veterans return home and reintegrate with few problems, and most police leaders value having them on the force. They bring with them skills and discipline that police forces regard as assets. But an investigation by the USA TODAY Network and The Marshall Project indicates that the prevalence of military veterans also complicates relations between police and the communities they are meant to serve.
“To the obvious question — are veterans quicker to resort to force in policing situations? — there is no conclusive answer.” …
“Today just 6% of the population at large has served in the military, but 19% of police officers are veterans, according to an analysis of U.S. Census data by Gregory B. Lewis and Rahul Pathak of Georgia State University for The Marshall Project.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/30/when-veterans-become-cops-some-bring-war-home/99349228/
A combat vet with PTSD is more of a threat to him or herself than to others. The suicide rate of combat vets with PTSD is high.
“Why suicide rate among veterans may be more than 22 a day (one every 60 minutes)”
And “More than 69% of all veteran suicides were among those 50 and older. Mental-health professionals said one reason could be that these men give up on life after their children are out of the house or a longtime marriage falls apart. They are also likely to be Vietnam veterans, who returned from war to a hostile public and an unresponsive VA. Combat stress was chalked up to being crazy, and many Vietnam veterans lived with ghosts in their heads without seeking help.”
https://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/index.html
“I think I know who BackAgain is. It’s Trump. This is the kind of idiocy that Trump spouts all the time.”
Nah, Lloyd. Vocabulary is too big. Not to mention that Trump would be fine with “Post-PTSD former military, now trigger happy police officers.”
LOL
@Lloyd Lofthouse, I am not sure how poor mental health, combat stress and propensity for suicide contradicts with my opinion that combat vets should not be allowed to join the police. If anything, it supports it.
In 2013, if I read this correctly, there were 458 police shootings in the U.S., while only 8 in Germany, 0 in Japan, 0 in Britain. The U.S. has about 320M people, Germany has about 80M people. Even multiplied by 4, the difference is still more than tenfold.
What are the gun control laws in those countries compared to the US?
Wasn’t their a sooting on the military base Ft Hood…convicted of fatally shooting 13 people and injuring more than 30 others in the Fort Hood mass shooting on November 5, 2009. Hasan was a United States Army Medical Corps psychiatrist A jury panel of 13 officers convicted him of 13 counts of premeditated murder, 32 counts of attempted murder, and unanimously recommended he be dismissed from the service and sentenced to death.
IMHO it is a shame no other military personnel in the caf had a revolver – a trained shooter – I don’t think the numbers would have been that high…
On military bases, soldiers are not permitted to carry weapons.
…”it is a shame no other military personnel in the caf had a revolver – a trained shooter – I don’t think the numbers would have been that high…”
So you are of the belief that if everyone in the US walked around with a gun, we would all be safe? Statistics prove that the states with the laxest gun laws have the highest rate of gun deaths and injuries.
Explain why the NRA does not allow guns in their conventions. Why does Congress not allow guns in either the Senate or House? [Wouldn’t they all be safer if everyone carried a gun?] Why doesn’t Trump allow guns in his Mar-a-lago retreat?
The answer I found to your question was in a POLITICO article from 2015
In part the history:
For almost two centuries and until very recently, ordinary citizens had free run of the Capitol. Ironically, as Congress has become less hospitable to gun safety laws, and as conservative Republican legislators have grown more strident in their desire to see citizens carry open and concealed weapons everywhere—in churches and schools, on college campuses, at bars and restaurants—the one venue that has grown more gun-free, more secure and more restrictive is the building they work in.
Until 1983, there were no metal detectors at the entryways to the Capitol. No staff and member identification badges. No requirement that American taxpayers reserve advance tickets, queue up in a subterranean visitors’ center and be guided through a select few rooms of the complex. The only areas truly off limits to non-credentialed individuals were the Senate and House floors, though in extraordinary times, even these rooms became public space.
When Union soldiers converged on Washington in the spring of 1861, the Sixth Massachusetts took refuge in the new House and Senate chambers. John Hay, Abraham Lincoln’s young staff secretary, ventured over to inspect the “novel” scene. “The contrast was very painful between the grey haired dignity that filled the Senate Chamber when I saw it last and the present throng of bright-looking Yankee boys,” he observed..” Hay reclined on a leather sofa toward the rear of the chamber and gazed at the “wide-spreading skylights over arching the vast hall like heaven blushed and blazed with gold.” He thought it a fitting place to quarter the troops.
It took extraordinary circumstances for armed militiamen, citizens and congressmen to mingle freely on the House floor. But the stark contrast between now and then raises a poignant issue: Why should Congress be the only gun-free zone in America?
ADVERTISING
At exactly 2:32 on the afternoon of March 1, 1954, gunfire emanating from multiple points in the gallery interrupted legislative business on the crowded House floor, where 240 members of Congress were debating an immigration reform bill. The assailants—four Puerto Rican nationalists armed with German Lugers—created instant bedlam. Bullets “crashed through the table of the majority leader and chairs around it,” reported the New York Times, “and struck near the table of the Minority Leader and beyond.” At first, many House members mistook the gunfire for firecrackers. When they realized the gravity of their situation—they were sitting ducks, easy targets for unidentified gunmen who enjoyed a direct line of site—members dove behind their seats and crawled their way to the cloakrooms.
Capitol Police officers, with the aide of several spectators and one congressman, worked to subdue the attackers, while teenaged House pages dodged bullets to carry Rep. Alvin Bentley, a 35-year-old Republican from Michigan who had been gravely wounded, off the floor. Against odds, Bentley survived his injuries.
Remarkably, the attack in 1954 spurred no fundamental changes to Capitol security. The same cultural traditions that made the Capitol a natural dormitory for Civil War soldiers made it unthinkable that Congress would bar citizens from freely accessing and wandering its halls. The democratization of American politics from the 1830s onward reinforced a widely held conviction that, no matter how unrepresentative the makeup of the House and Senate might be of society at large, the national legislature was a people’s body, and its buildings belonged to everyone.
That began to change amid the turbulence of the late sixties. In 1967, with civil rights and anti-Vietnam War demonstrations assuming an increasingly strident tone—including several disruptive protests from the House and Senate galleries—Congress passed a new measure stipulating, among other provisions, that it be made a criminal offense, punishable by up to five years in prison, to carry or discharge a firearm in the Capitol. Still, even after the Weather Underground detonated a bomb in the Senate wing in the early morning hours of March 1, 1971, ostensibly to protest U.S. military operations in Laos, Congress took few precautions. As late as 1983, visitors were required to pass through metal detectors at the doors to the Senate and House galleries, but not upon entering the building itself, where they remained free to walk most corridors and inevitably happened across dozens if not hundreds of congressmen on days when either chamber was in session. At most, they were asked to open their handbags and purses for a manual inspection.
The status quo changed on the evening of November 7, 1983, when a bomb tore through the walls of the Senate Republican cloakroom and also badly damaged the office of Senate Minority Leader Robert Byrd. Fortunately, no lives were lost.
In response to the attack, Congress finally tightened Capitol security in a significant way. Whereas visitors had been able to access the building through 10 doors, now the Capitol Police only allowed the general public to use four, each outfitted with a metal detector. In later years, x-ray machines were added. Furthermore, staff members were now required to wear official badges that would allow them access to newly restricted areas. Reporters, accustomed to enjoying free run of the building, found themselves limited in their movement.
And when you have an individual shooting a republican on a ball field during. practice I think your question could have been answered by yourself
Clearly, ball fields need metal detectors and should be held indoors with limited access
Diane,
Going to football games – NFL etc – one goes thru checkpoints at ticket gates -pocketbook checks etc…and what is interesting not one NRA member has been identified as shooter –
I believe the shooter at the ballfield was a democrat – I could be wrong – but he did follow the playbook and shoot only republicans.
jscheidell: The fact is that there was a shooter and he was trying to kill someone, or perhaps badly injure a Congressman.
Guns serve no purpose other than to kill. The more guns = more killings. The US has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world.
What realistic thing is going to be done about this?
jschdidell: “and when you have an individual shooting a republican on a ball field during. practice I think your question could have been answered by yourself”
You are finally admitting that GUNS DO KILL!! A better step would be to have strict gun control laws and a buyback program.
You never answered this, “Why doesn’t Trump allow guns in his Mar-a-lago retreat?”
So high tech security will protect people. Why do they need protection if guns don’t kill?
carolmalaysia,
Guns don’t kill unless you have a “human” who pulls the trigger with that intent – otherise it is only an inanimate object – I haven’t found one story that indicated a gun killed someone without a human attached to it….
“Why doesn’t Trump allow guns in his Mar-a-lago retreat?” For the same reason other presidents disallow guns at their retreats – and secret service does carry revolvers etc while guarding the presidents.
That question seems a tad snarky but since it is Trumphobia on your part… and that question has the same level of – Ill avoid snarky replies, but why do the hollywood crowd have guns and bodyguards as well as fences around their compounds – maybe the same logical response – security factors
Please, what function do guns have other than killing?
Diane,
What
purpose – I use them for target practice and clay pigeon shooing – not one killing! Contests on accuracy etc.
Do you use a .38 or an AR-15 to shoot clay pigeons? Does anyone?
Carolmalaysia,
you ask an important question – one deserving some common sense reasonable logical responses – I found 2 here for you …
NRA is a death machine. Diane’s repetitive – I guess helpful to her…..and then we get this helpful response to your question….
“The NRA is a “greedy” death machine.
The leaders of the NRA worship at the altar of avarice. Centuries ago, to placate their bloodthirsty false gods, leaders just like the leaders of the NRA would cut the hearts out of innocent young children on the top of pyramids in central America.” Thank you Lloyd –
How helpful are these comments to your question….?
The LA Times reported, “From death row, Ft. Hood shooter requests to join Islamic State”
On November 5, 2009, “3 people are killed and more than 30 others are wounded, nearly all of them unarmed soldiers, when a U.S. Army officer goes on a shooting rampage at Fort Hood in central Texas. The deadly assault, carried out by Major Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, was the worst mass murder at a U.S. military installation.” …
“In the aftermath of the massacre, reviews by the Pentagon and a U.S. Senate panel found Hasan’s superiors had continued to promote him despite the fact that concerns had been raised over his behavior, which suggested he had become a radical and potentially violent Islamic extremist. Among other things, Hasan stated publicly that America’s war on terrorism was really a war against Islam.”
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/army-major-kills-13-people-in-fort-hood-shooting-spree
Hasan was one man actively serving in the US military who was responsible for one terrorist attack on a military base in the United States. How many similar attacks have there been on military bases in the United States?
At any given time, about 1.4 million Americans are serving in the active military.
As of 2014, the VA estimates there were 22-million military veterans in the U.S. population.
Hasan was one man out of 1.4-million active military troops
Hasan was one man out of 22-million military veterans in the U.S.
Q On military bases, soldiers are not permitted to carry weapons. END Q
I am a civilian contractor, and I work at the Pentagon. I often visit Fort Belvoir, VA. I was in the Air Force for five years. I served in Afghanistan/Iraq for ten years. I have lived on military bases, as a dependent.
Trust me. Soldiers/Airmen carry firearms and all types of weapons on military bases.
Where did you ever get the idea, that soldiers do not carry weapons on military bases?
Veterans who read the blog have written to say that they were not permitted to carry weapons on base. My ex-husband served at Fort a Gordon in Georgia. The Army zealously Che Ken and controlled every weapon on base. The worst crime a soldier could commit other than murder was losing his weapon.
Charles,
Lloyd proffered the article indicating that is policy….the Atlantic — see above….this was th source of my comment regarding the incident…..
I served as a civilian contractor in Iraq/Afghanistan for ten years. At every base I was stationed at, the military people (soldiers/marines/airmen/sailors) carried weapons. They either carried M16 rifles, or 9mm semi-automatic pistols. Normally, the weapons must be “condition 4”, which means that the weapon is not loaded, and the individual keeps the ammunition carried separately on his person.
True, the military tightly controls weaponry issued to active-duty personnel. Each weapon must be signed out, paperwork completed, etc. The weapon is entrusted to the individual, and if a weapon is lost due to negligence, the individual could be subject to Article 15 punishment or court-martial. Losing a weapon due to negligence is a serious offense, but it is not one step down from homicide.
Not every military person carries small arms all the time. I was on active duty for five(5) years. I had weapons training on M16, and .38 revolvers. But I worked in telecommunications, and I was never issued a weapon under my own signature.
Today, in the USA, on our military bases, very few persons carry weapons. Military police and civilian security guards carry handguns.
During the ten years that I served in Iraq/Afghanistan I never was issued a firearm. The Army (correctly) does not want untrained civilians on the bases, carrying firearms. Also, your employer must buy insurance on any civilian contractor who carries firearms. The insurance is expensive, and most employers don’t want to deal with the costs and paperwork.
Q Please, what function do guns have other than killing?
END Q
People buy firearms for all kinds of reasons. Some people own firearms for target shooting. Some people shoot competitively, and keep their weapons stored in a locker at their local shooting club. Some people own shotguns, for skeet and trap shooting. They shoot only at clay pigeons, for sport.
Some people own firearms and use them to hunt animals for food or to put trophies on the wall. I was in New Jersey in 1999, and it was the worst drought in 50 years. Deer were starving, and drifting into cities to forage in the garbage. The governor declared open season, and people were permitted and encouraged to shoot every deer that was in the cities.
Some people own antique firearms as collectibles. I know a man in KY who owns a muzzle loading flintlock reproduction of a Kentucky long rifle. He only loads it with paper, and only shoots it during patriotic celebrations and parades.
The function of most firearms is to hurl projectiles at high speed. Some firearms are used only to make noise at celebrations. Some people use them to hunt animals to eat for food.
Lethality is, of course the primary reason that most people own firearms. A firearm that does not have the ability to deliver deadly force is nothing more than a noisemaker.
The framers of our constitution, wisely, decided to empower the states to form militias, because many of them feared a large standing army, and the nation needed to “provide for the common defense”. The establishment of state militias was a compromise.
The framers also, wisely, recognized the right for individual citizens to defend themselves with deadly force. Self-defense without the tools for self-defense is meaningless. Like a car without gasoline, it isn’t going to function.
Guns have only one purpose: to maim or kill.
Charles: “The framers also, wisely, recognized the right for individual citizens to defend themselves with deadly force.”
The framers did not envision a country whereby innocent children and adults would be mass murdered nor did they envision a time when individuals would be shot walking down the street. I’m sure they didn’t think about guns so powerful that children would have to tremble in fear inside their homes because of the gun fight outside by gangs. How many innocent kids have been killed by bullets going through the walls of their house? This wouldn’t be reported because it is something mainly happening in black neighborhoods.
There is NOTHING guaranteed about that. It is an interpretation by a conservative Supreme Court that mangled the original meaning. The Supreme Court does give improper politically motivated opinions and this is individual gun right is one of them.
Unfortunately when conservatives reign, lots of ugly laws will be enforced. One example is the recent law that groups of people who work in hazardous conditions can’t join collectively to sue the corporation. Many corporations will embrace the chance to take advantage of workers so that their bottom line will improve. We are moving backwards. Another bad example is Citizens United. Our whole government is being bought out by the wealthy because of that rotten decision.
People want gun control. Most of us do not want more killings. Love of guns is now stronger than love of life. This has to change as conditions continue to deteriorate.
@carolmalaysia:
Q The framers did not envision a country whereby innocent children and adults would be mass murdered nor did they envision a time when individuals would be shot walking down the street. I’m sure they didn’t think about guns so powerful that children would have to tremble in fear inside their homes because of the gun fight outside by gangs. How many innocent kids have been killed by bullets going through the walls of their house? This wouldn’t be reported because it is something mainly happening in black neighborhoods. END Q
I do not know what the framers would have thought about mass murder, as you call it. Homicide did not begin in 1789, people have been killing one another, since we first came out of the trees.
As to technology, the 2d amendment does not address it. I am certain that the framers understood that the flintlock had replaced the wheel-lock, and as a result the lethality of firearms had appreciated. As to gang fights, I am certain that they did not have a clue.
I live in metro WashDC. Innocents are killed all the time in the city. Chicago has a rate of homicide, and “collateral damage” even higher than the nation’s capital.
Where did you arrive at the fact that the death of black children is not reported? I can assure you, that the continued homicide of children in the city, is reported and examined with great detail. I watch the body every night on WashDC television stations. I have never heard a more racist comment.
Q There is NOTHING guaranteed about that. It is an interpretation by a conservative Supreme Court that mangled the original meaning. The Supreme Court does give improper politically motivated opinions and this is individual gun right is one of them. END Q
The Supreme Court ruled in the Heller decision, that the right to keep and bear arms, is both an individual and a collective right. I was in the city, just a couple of blocks away from the Supreme Court building, when the decision was announced. I blew my horn in celebration. The original meaning of the 2d amendment could not be any clearer. The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Q People want gun control. Most of us do not want more killings. Love of guns is now stronger than love of life. This has to change as conditions continue to deteriorate. END Q
How do you arrive at this statement? If people wanted additional firearms controls, they would insist on the repeal of the 2d amendment, and passage of such legislation. Firearms are already the most highly regulated consumer product on the market.
Every poll shows large majorities want gun control.
Diane, I currently have two comments under moderation. Guess this is my day. Is Word Press against what I’m writing?
One comment under moderations a few weeks ago just plain disappeared. I normally don’t see that happening.
Sorry I had lunch.
Your comments are posted. Not sure why WordPress puts them in moderation
THANKS! OHHH. I didn’t want to take away your lunch time.
You are so good at always replying. I do appreciate the times that you make comments to support what I have written. I think, “Hoo-rah! I have the expert on my side.”
we are on the same page.
Charles: “I can assure you, that the continued homicide of children in the city, is reported and examined with great detail.”
Did you read about the 11 year old boy who was shot in Indiana on the news? How many more shootings are happening that don’t get reported? I think there are plenty of shootings in my area of the country. GUNS KILL AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE EASILY AVAILABLE!!
…….
EAST CHICAGO, Ind. – An 11-year-old boy was fatally shot in Northwest Indiana Saturday evening.
The shooting happened after two juveniles got into an argument in Nunez Park on the 3700 block of Elm Street around 6 p.m. on Saturday in East Chicago, Ind., according to the Chicago Tribune. It ended with a bystander, 11-year-old David Anderson, taking a fatal gunshot to the head.
When police and paramedics arrived, a woman was giving him CPR.
He was transported to Comer’s Children Hospital. He died on Sunday.
………….
NOBLESVILLE, Ind. — A student was taken into custody Friday after a shooting at a Noblesville, Indiana, middle school left three people injured, officials said.
A female student from Noblesville West Middle School was hospitalized in critical condition and a male teacher was in good condition, the Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office said in a Friday night news release. However, hospital officials said at least three people, including one adult, were being treated. One student had an ankle fracture.
Noblesville police Chief Kevin Jowitt said the shooting in the city of 60,000, about 25 miles northeast of Indianapolis, was reported shortly after 9 a.m…
……..
CHICAGO — A man is in serious condition after he was shot by a Chicago police officer early Saturday.
According to a preliminary statement from the Chicago Police Department, tactical officers responded to a call of shots fired in the 5200 block of West Ohio Street about 3 a.m. Saturday. When police arrived on the scene, they spotted a man running away.
Officers chased the man, police said, and commanded him to stop. At that point, according to the statement, the man pulled a gun and “an armed encounter between the offender and police ensued.” One officer shot the man, who was taken to a local hospital in serious condition.
A weapon was recovered on the scene….
Banning assault-style rifles & background checks will not stop school killings but eliminating the usage of Ritalin and banning trench coats will. How does one fight such stupidity? No wonder nothing gets done. These are supposedly average to intelligent people speaking.
……………..
From TheHill.com: Hugh Hewitt suggests schools ban trench coats after Texas shooting
MSNBC host and conservative commentator Hugh Hewitt on Monday suggested that schools ban trench coats days after a gunman reportedly wearing a trench coat opened fire at a Santa Fe, Texas, high school.
Hewitt, speaking on “The Hugh Hewitt Show” on Salem Radio Network on Monday in a clip posted by Media Matters, noted that the suspected shooter allegedly did not use an assault-style rifle. He instead used a shotgun and a .38 revolver belonging to his father, according to authorities.
Hewitt said that measures like universal background checks and a ban on assault-style weapons — as he said Democrats often call for in the wake of mass shooting — likely would not have prevented the Texas shooting…
http://thehill.com/homenews/media/388657-hugh-hewitt-suggests-schools-ban-trench-coats-after-texas-shooting
Banning things will not work. We must replace a culture of tension and hatred with a culture of love and acceptance. Passing laws that do this is difficult if much of the culture sees violence as a proper method for seeking vindication for grievances.
Roy: Banning guns does help the problem. If they are not available, they will not be able to kill. However, I also agree that our culture is one of violence and it is being increased and approved by an administration that supports violence. Neo-Natzi’s and the KKK are not representative our our culture but they are being supported by Trump. These are NOT nice people. It is a shame that we are a violent culture. Look at how many countries are being bombed or shot in the name of preparing these countries for democracy. It is a shame that we do not value working to help others. We spend trillions on killing and keep cutting programs that help, both domestically and internationally. We will never kill our way to peace. Still, the easy availability of guns is a liability to all our lives. Running to other countries is not a very appealing solution but staying here is going to get more violent as the NRA continues to spread its message of buy a gun and keep your family safe. Put a gun on your person and be ready to shoot when the occasion arrives. Never mind that these people aren’t adequately prepared on how to use these weapons of killing. Just know that you will be safe if you carry a gun with you all the time. That is BS and it is being spread by the NRA. I consider them a domestic terrorist organization.
Thanks , Carol. I think regulation of guns is a good idea, too. Everybody believes in restrictions on anti-tank weapons. After that there is a lot of argument. I favor a ban and buy back on large magazine and automatic style rifles, but most people around here think that is blasphemy. I really do not think that would cure much of the shooting thing, but it is worth a try to tighten up gun access if we can.
This just came in from WaPo. No wonder this is a major problem with little chance of common sense solutions.
…………………
Headline: We asked every House member about the Parkland students’ agenda on gun violence. Only 2 Republicans said they support it all.
Student survivors of the Parkland school shooting are calling on Congress to pass five gun policy proposals, including universal background checks and an assault weapons ban.
An overwhelming majority of Democratic lawmakers support all five proposals. Just 12 percent of the House Republican delegation — 29 out of 237 members — responded to repeated inquiries from The Washington Post, which included multiple emails and phone calls.
I wish we could enact some common sense regulation that would stop our schools and communities from being shooting galleries. If we want anything to happen, we have to unseat the Republicans.
Republicans are now the party of Russia.
Please indicate what specific common sense regulations you need to stop it – You had democratic control of all 3 houses under Obama – no change then either – so after screaming NRA NRA as the bad guy – marches etc what changes? The bad guy/s are only republicans? The bad guy is Trump = where does your blame game come to an end and we come together to address the many possibilities. Get rid of the second amendment – I don’t think that will ever happen….
NRA is a death machine.
The NRA is a “greedy” death machine.
The leaders of the NRA worship at the altar of avarice. Centuries ago, to placate their bloodthirsty false gods, leaders just like the leaders of the NRA would cut the hearts out of innocent young children on the top of pyramids in central America.
https://www.apnews.com/4749a4f22fff40b0ab598e401151f83c
Did you have a point?
I did. Now the parents of the killed students will face the task of comparing the bullets that killed their kids with the weapons the police used.
Oy vey. So much to answer, so little time.
First, blind links are disrespectful, so if that’s your point, state it up front.
Second, it’s not parents who compare bullets.
Third, weren’t you just yesterday complaining that the police didn’t shoot the shooter fast enough? I guess the cops are supposed to show up on the scene and immediately know what’s going on, who’s in need of shooting, and take him out with their first shot. Since you know this so much better than the cops do, I suppose you’ll be applying for the police academy?
dienne77: I believe too many people have been ‘trained’ about police efficiency from watching TV shows. One that I saw recently had the main character kill at least 50 people. Each shot was accurate and he never got killed or even nicked.
Reality is much different. I don’t know why anyone would take a job to protect schools. It is a job that is asking for a disaster. You will get blamed for not shooting accurately, not shooting fast enough or for being afraid of being exterminated by a kid who will kill for the ‘fun’ of it. What are the requirements for taking this job? How does one keep his/her skills up to date? Schools with well trained guards and up to date tech equipment still don’t protect students.
There are TOO many guns and they are too accessible.
“Third, weren’t you just yesterday complaining that the police didn’t shoot the shooter fast enough?” – close reading is not your forte, Dienne. I was wondering why, despite “the exchange of fire” the guy is not even harmed. Where police was shooting and what – or whom – they hit?
“It is too many guns, easily obtained, easily accessible. Available to any teen who is depressed or angry or has a grudge. Instead of settling scores with a fist fight, he comes to school and kills people.”
No, guns aren’t necessarily “easily obtained, or “easily accessible” nor “available to any teen”. Can a teen get access to a weapon? Yes. But these shootings are an aberration UNLESS one takes the time to consider how this society glorifies and promotes death and destruction not only in video games, the media, sporting events with the nationalistic shows of military might, a glorification of everything military, our militarized police forces, our out of control use of death and destruction in foreign policy which can be seen on a daily basis in the “news” and on and on and on.
Until this country wakes up and sees the deadly elephant of glorified violence that is in the parlor, these shootings will continue. It is going to take a long time to get out from under the purveyors of that death and destruction, those purveyors and those enable and fund, who make billions from the uncalculated suffering they cause. We were warned over 85 years ago by Smedley Butler of the pernicious and deadly effects of those purveyors. WAR IS A RACKET that we refuse to acknowledge. And getting out from under that racket won’t happen in my lifetime.
I notice you didn’t dispute that there are “too many” guns. Oversight? The figure that’s usually cited is 311 million guns in America. That’s a heck of a lot of guns, by every comparison I’ve seen.
Shall I dispute whether or not it’s “too many”. Don’t know FLERP! haven’t really given that aspect much thought. Roughly one per person, at first thought doesn’t necessarily seem like too many. But don’t quote me on that. Although that would seem to allow for a well regulated militia (TIC).
From the comparisons I’ve seen, there is no other country that comes remotely close to that number of guns per capita. So it’s quite easy to make a strong case that there are “too many” guns, unless one is inclined to argue that every other country has too few guns (and I know many people probably wold make that argument). Note that the per capita rate is probably skewed a bit by households that own a large number of guns, offset by many households that own no guns. But still.
Like I said, don’t know if it’s too much, too little or just right. But then again we ain’t talking Goldilocks here either.
Duane: Back about 1941 my father, a Sunday school teacher and a student of the Ghandian philosophy of nonviolence, decided to sit out World War II. Unlike a friend, who was drafted and given a job driving a truck, my father was given an agricultural deferment with recognition of his need of caring for aging parents. People in the community still held this against him in 1972. When my parents were married in1949, they had a discussion about guns and decided to do without.
I grew up in a society with way more than enough guns, and I am comfortable around them. Every boy had a hunting rifle in his pickup. There is something more than a culture of violence and/or the presence of guns that has produced this ongoing crisis. I tend to see it as yet another symptom of the sickness in a society that is based on violence and surrounded by violent metaphor in film and game media at a time of remarkable tension in society.
Like my father, I reject violence in the political conflict in society. Like my father, I worry about whether I am making the right decision.
“There is something more than . . . ”
I basically agree with that thought. Perhaps that “something more” has to do with the great inequalities we are currently experiencing in this country.
It seems that humans have an innate need to know where they are at in the pecking order. Marketers and admen have used that need to their advantage, purposely causing envy as a response to their marketing/ads. That envy, jealousy of what others have serve to make many feel inadequate (whether it should or not is a whole other story) in/with their life situations. How many people appear to need to have the latest, biggest, most expensive (at least for them) car, boat, watch, or McMansion? That envious condition in which many are trapped, many without even beginning to recognize that the trap has been set for them on purpose, to exploit from them what little wealth, and even dignity, they may have.
I think I have mentioned a good read* on highly unequal societies and how all indicators of social good-health, income, safety, lack of fear, etc. . . show the negative effects of that inequality. We are currently at the most unequal society level that we have been since the 1920s. It does not bode well for the present and future.
*The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Stronger Societies”
Roy: “There is something more than a culture of violence and/or the presence of guns that has produced this ongoing crisis.” Other countries show violent films and have violent video games. No other country comes close to the number of killings. It is the number of EASILY ACCESSIBLE GUNS that other countries do not have.
I’m tired of the GOP mantra of looking for every conceivable thing [come on: Ritalin and trench coats?} rather than the absurd amount of guns.
Australia had a buyback program. Both Australia and Japan have many hoops that anyone must go through. We can walk into any gun shop and purchase anything. There have been two gun shows recently at a nearby fair ground in my area. I drove by twice on my way to hospice and grimaced. There is a gun shop about 15 minutes from my place. I’ve seen full page advertisements in the local paper for all sorts of guns and rifles. This is just plain insanity and nothing is being done.
For some more from the BlArne on Cunninghams proposal:
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/05/arne-duncan-boycott-school/560921/
Do 100,000 people get shot every year in U.S.? Facebook post says yes – Politifact.com
We turned to statistics from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; experts in the field told us it keeps the most reliable statistics on the subject. The CDC collects two sets of relevant data.
The first is data for deaths by guns, which is included in an annual report about deaths of all types during calendar year 2009. The numbers for gun deaths is broken down into several categories:
Suicide: 18,735 deaths
Homicide: 11,493 deaths
Unintentional: 554 deaths
Legal interventions: 333 deaths
Undetermined: 232 deaths
Total: 31,347 deaths
The second data set tracks non-fatal injuries by guns. According to the CDC, there were 73,505 non-fatal firearm injuries in 2010. (We will ignore an additional 13,851 non-fatal injuries from BB or pellet guns.)…
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/
Catching up with yesterday and the day before….and now it’s TODAY. Things are so crazy in the news now it’s hard to keep up. Wow.
I heard a really interesting piece on NPR Monday afternoon about how schools are hiring this company to monitor, like, billions of social media posts for things students might be saying about their schools….planned attacks, indications of possible suicide attempts. I think the company charges $10,000 a year for this surveillance. https://www.npr.org/2018/05/21/613117571/how-schools-across-the-country-are-working-to-detect-threats-made-on-social-medi
I am going to play the piece for my classes today. I’ll have to add the CNN stats from this entry. We could talk the entire period about this issue.
It’s wild how when faced with the tragedy of school shootings the go-to response from so many people is to add MORE guns, MORE surveillance, MORE walls. We had a local official write a long, almost frantic letter to our weekly newspaper recently pleading for our district to fortify our schools, to “…fully harden our buildings from the threats of violence.”
Of course, what happens to our society, our neighborhoods when we create these battle-ready school fortresses? How far do we go and at what cost to the freedom our nation cherishes? Yes, we’ve got to protect our children but what lessons are we teaching them now? And, in the face of these tragedies, how and can school administrators and school boards say “no”?
The Parkland students sure got this one right. Was it Emma Gonzalez who made this point? Schools say they can’t afford books, teachers, and other essential programs. But then our society finds all sorts of money for guns and guards, monitors and “man traps”.
What is going on in our country?
Running out of time…I need to leave for school soon.
Have a good day, everyone.
This is CRAZY! Schools are falling apart, teachers are working 2-6 jobs to survive, text books are 25 years old, tech companies are selling their tests to destroy the creativity and love of learning and now the latest gizmo is to spend $2.7 billion a year to MAYBE keep kids from being killed. There is no money to continue research to find out if this stuff even works.
Just what we need…fortresses. Gad. All of this because of the blatant garbage put out by the NRA. Why not hug your gun while repeating, “Guns don’t kill”?
……………….
Schools are spending billions on high-tech security. But are students any safer?…NBC news
After the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, the National Institute of Justicemade school safety research a priority, doling out tens of millions of dollars each year to projects that sought to understand school violence and how to stop it. Much of that work has not yet been completed.
And now the funding source appears to be drying up. A federal spending bill passed in March eliminated the NIJ grant programs. Instead, after the Feb. 14 massacre in Parkland Congress passed the STOP School Violence Act. It redirected federal funding toward anti-violence training, installation of metal detectors, anonymous tip lines and better mental-health services, rather than research into technology-based solutions.
The lack of research hasn’t stopped districts from investing in high-tech promises. School administrators said they want to be smart about what they buy, but they are also guided by parents’ desire for added security — even if those systems are never used…
A post-Parkland analysis by IHS Markit noted that the school security market had surged to about $2.7 billion a year. The next wave of products available to school districts could include facial-recognition cameras and impenetrable classroom doors, the firm said.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/schools-are-spending-billions-high-tech-security-are-students-any-n875611
There is a new lobby to push for money for security: the Security industry. School security should be paid by the state from funding other than schools.
Diane: Once these security companies start making lots of money they will become one more force to make sure the number of guns in the county is never lessened. Lobbyists are probably already working their ‘magic’ on Congress.
I remember subbing in Chicago years ago and having to pass a police guard at the entrance door. I was horrified by that.
I can’t begin to imagine that stress that all this worry about being killed is putting on students. I wonder if I would even want to go to school in this climate of fear. Do you really want ‘facial-recognition cameras and impenetrable classroom doors” and whatever else is being proposed? Kids in poverty areas have difficulty learning because of the stress of their environment. Do all kids now have to live with the same stress?
I like a school in which as soon as I enter there is a feeling of concern, passion and love. I want hallways that exude beauty. I can feel this in some schools and not in others.
The only REAL solution is to get rid of the number of guns and have strict gun control laws. Guns are the problem. Getting rid of them is the solution. Damn the ideas of turning out schools into fortresses so that gun lovers can be happy.
Agreed!
Carol,
“Damn the ideas of turning out schools into fortresses so that gun lovers can be happy.”
While I agree with the “Damn the idea. . .into fortresses”, I’m not so sure that turning schools into fortresses has anything to do with making gun lovers happy. It has a lot more to do with making security firms a lot of money. And it gives the false appearance of seeming to do something by the politicians that enact/vote for that insanity.
Duane: ‘I’m not so sure that turning schools into fortresses has anything to do with making gun lovers happy. ‘
Gun lovers will be happy because anything that lets them keep an increasing number of guns is fantastic. Politicians will gloat over all that has been done….even if nothing has been done. Security companies will count their $$$ and all will be happy.
Ah, I see what you are getting at now.
Carolmalaysia,
I checked SNOPES and the NRA policies — to answer your question on why guns were banned at the NRA convention…..
SNOPES
However, the NRA did not in any way ban the carrying of guns at their convention; rather, the rumor to that effect stemmed from a misunderstanding of varying convention practices, local regulations, and existing laws.
The NRA convention is a very large event, with expected attendance in the range of 70,000 to 80,000 persons, and will sprawl multiple venues. At the primary venue, Music City Center, gun owners with proper carry permits can indeed bring their guns with them during the association’s convention. However, one of the auxiliary venues, the Bridgestone Arena (which will be hosting an NRA-sponsored concert by country music artist Alan Jackson and comedian Jeff Foxworthy), is a private venue that prohibits the possession of firearms, and attendees are bound to follow its regulations when they are in that particular arena. When attendees are at other convention locales, such as the main exhibit hall, they will be free to carry firearms in a manner consistent with state law.
Moreover, the NRA did not mandate that any firearms displayed on the convention floor have their firing pins removed, nor that guns purchased at the convention be picked up elsewhere. It is common safety practice for guns put on display by their manufacturers at such shows to be non-operational, and state and federal laws govern the sale and buyer pick-up of firearms. The NRA did not originate or insist on these practices for their convention, as Bob Owens, the editor of the gun rights web site BearingArms.com, noted:
NRA note–
The NRA also published a message on to their official Twitter account confirming all of this:
“Lawfully carried firearms will be permitted in the Music City Center with the proper license in accordance with Tennessee law,” the tweet said.
The NRA also published a statement on its page for the Annual Meetings & Exhibits, http://www.nraam.org, that weapons are not allowed in Bridgestone Arena on Saturday when an NRA-sponsored concert is scheduled to be held there.
“Bridgestone Arena prohibits the possession of firearms,” the statement said. “When carrying your firearm, remember to follow all federal, state and local laws.”
carolmalaysia,
“No single piece of legislation can address the underlying societal issues that might encourage a teenager to commit an unspeakable act of violence. Our society must discuss mental health resources, juvenile crime, enhanced school security, and training for educators willing to take responsibility for protecting themselves and their students if the local communities/teachers desire it.
We must discuss the role of the media and the effects gratuitous on-screen violence has on young viewers. We must discuss stiffer penalties for those who steal and commit crimes with firearms. We must have an honest discussion about our responsibilities to our children as parents. We must discuss gun owners’ responsibilities that come with the exercise of our Second Amendment rights.
Just like the comments made at the English wedding where the theme from the pastor was “coming together – love respect etc – safely storing firearms is only one part of the solution to this vexing problem. The vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding and responsible.
Shouting, shutting out, and insulting those with whom you disagree hasn’t worked… the difficult conversations our kids deserve, the ones where we all come together with our best ideas for the benefit of all is required….
Yes, indeed, let’s talk it out. That’s fix things.
Yes, tackling the issues might cough up a gem or two – screaming NRA after each shooting hasn’t got anyone closer to a solution – although it might make one feel good.
Diane, what is the difference between the shooting in Fla and Texas? The liberal press — the Democrats, the socialists — and the dichotomy between the Texas shooting and the Florida shooting are so stark. Within minutes and hours, the sheriff and the people in Florida were taking to the streets blaming the NRA. Yet Texans are going to church, mourning their dead.
The sheriff is in tears, and not one mention of the NRA. Texans had a guy who’s crazy, shot up the place, and that’s who they blamed. In Florida, they immediately blamed the NRA, which had nothing to do with that shooting. Cruz?
One school shooting, the nation was turned upside down —
There were roundtable discussions everywhere.
There were protest marches in Washington.
Some of the students at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas school were made national heroes like David “Camera” Hogg,
The national protest march in Washington was blaming the NRA. Texas, not a whimper –. No attempt to blame the NRA! No attempt to get the students out in the streets marching, demanding – none.the magic bullet words could not be used here, “semiautomatic,” “automatic.” Everything that the kid used — and there were explosives that were planted around! Taking it beyond guns.
The NRA’s got nothing to do with bombs. The NRA has nothing to do with explosives. The shooter was caught, genuinely a bad guy, there’s nothing sympathetic about him. He was not exempted from previous behavior because of the PROMISE Program or anything. But it’s primarily because the usual enemies could not be clearly assailed in the Texas
One of the fundamental explanations for this — the media knew that the community in Texas would not join the nor the students in Texas No Camera Hogg equivalent at the Texas school.
A fundamental realization that people have that this is not about guns; it’s all about politics. And when the left seizes an event or spies an event that they think offers no political value, they don’t get anywhere near it. It’s about how to move the agenda forward, and the event in Texas didn’t give them any ingredients to do that.
There’s another reason why they didn’t try to make hay out of the shooting in Texas. Have you taken a look at the polling on gun control? It is very bad for the Democrats. And that’s probably yet another reason.
All the se shootings are about guns, nothing more, nothing less.
Your jealousy towards brilliant young David Hogg is peculiar. Very peculiar.
What polling? I was under the impression that the majority of people are interested in sensible gun control.
Every poll shows the overwhelming majority of the public wants real gun control.
If jscheidell can’t get over his weird obsession with David Hogg and Get his nose out of NRA publications, he might know that.
Diane,
I did as you so sneakily commanded, and put the NRA journal down,and low and behold what should appear but your wonder boy the extortion boy – David CAMERA Hogg.
Tyrannical Teen Hogg Tries to Extort $1 Million From Publix
http://www.independentsentinel.com › Home
2 days ago – Tyrant teen David Hogg is demanding $1 million from Publix supermarket and an anti-NRA pledge. Who the hay does this bully think he is?
Her has become an extremist attempting to extort cash from a major grocery chain ended in failure this as the threatened boycott resulted in a spike of support and business.
Hogg threatened the iconic Florida grocery chain Publix over reports the company donated a total of $670,000 to Republican gubernatorial candidate Adam Putnam.
“I call on @Publix to donate double the money they gave to Putman [sic] to the Stoneman Douglas Victims fund, $1,000,000. And never support an A rated NRA politician again,” Hogg wrote on Twitter.
Any third grader knows 670,000 doubled is 1,330,000. Not 1 million. Earlier this year Hogg complained he couldn’t get into several colleges.
A day earlier Hogg ordered his online followers to harass Publix employees and forcibly disrupt business unless they handed over the cash.
.@Publix is a #NRASellOut. In Parkland we will have a die in the Friday (the 25th) before memorial day weekend. Starting at 4pm for 12 min inside our 2 Publix stores. Just go an lie down starting at 4. Feel free to die in with us at as many other @Publix as possible,” Hogg tweeted.
Rather than bow to Hogg’s extortion demands, Publix stood by Putnam and their donations.
“As the hometown candidate, Publix has had a long-standing relationship with Commissioner Putnam. We support pro-business candidates, and believe Commissioner Putnam will make a great governor,” said company spokesman Brian West.
And rather than see a dropoff in business, Publix was met with an outpouring of public support. Thousands, using the hashtag #istandwithpublix, have praised the company’s generous charitable donations and have been tweeting photos of their Friday receipts.
Hogg himself backed down from his own orders. Rather than hold a “die-in” inside stores, he posed for cameras in a parking lot outsides and defaced the pavement with fake “body” outlines.
Diane – obsession? no way – but he keeps loving being in the camera — in fact he is better for a comedy show than the late night comic wannabes!
Jscheidell,
Your obsession with this teenage boy is very weird. Do you have a crush on David Hogg? Do you fantasize about him? You have written about him again and again. Why not Emma Gonzalez or some of the others? Something is happening, and I have seen it before.
Diane,
As a public figure he is entitled to the criticisms for his actions – just like your trump derange syndrome affliction – which I find laughable – you must have fantasies abound creating nightmares of a 2020 win for Trump – Contempt? no – a difference of opinion which doesn’t fit the concert of many bobbleheads….
I joined this blog for the info on educational issues – that I thank you and the other readers for – but if I remember after your darling lost in the woods weak candidates lost you got to the point of cutting the discourse on her because it was not on topic for the purpose of the site – I even bent to the your wishes of not putting #MAGA in texts – please forgive that one – but how about a patriotic #KAG?
Jscheidell,
I don’t know why you read this Blog. My central purpose is to support and strengthen public education as a central institution in a democratic society, governed by democratic institutions. I oppose vouchers and charters. I oppose high stakes testing. I support students, teachers, and parents. I oppose privatization.
You are a rabid supporter of Trump. Trump favors everything I oppose. He wants to transfer federal funds to religious and private schools. DeVos supports for-profit enterprises that prey on students.
I hate guns. You love the NRA.
Why are you here?
Your reasons are why I read the blog –“My central purpose is to support and strengthen public education as a central institution in a democratic society, governed by democratic institutions. I oppose vouchers and charters. I oppose high stakes testing. I support students, teachers, and parents. I oppose privatization.” MEGA DITTOES
But it dived into NRA bashing – Vitriolic hatred,Trump deranged syndrome, name calling for Trump that took up the bloggers first paragraph before getting to the points to be made, it dealt with one school shooting but not another – due to not meeting an agenda ?and I didn’t get an answer from anyone as to why –
And I support each of your blogs stated topics – I have not opposed any. of those topics in this blog – in fact I remember getting a question on how I could support Trump and yet not like the policy of DeVos…
jscheidell: “I didn’t get an answer from anyone as to why –”
Why! You haven’t been reading what we have been saying if you have to ask why we can’t stand Trump. There are many reasons and I’m not going to list them again. Many times is plenty.
If you don’t understand them, that is not my problem.
Carolmalaysia,
The question asked was why there was very little attention to Santa Fe vs Parkland – had nothing to do with Trump – and your reason/s for the imbalance of coverage?
jscheidell claims that the Santa Fe High School Shooting didn’t get as much coverage as the Parkland shooting????????
Where does JSC get his/her info?
I just Googled “the Santa Fe High School Shooting” and on the first page of the Google search that had about 1.2 million hits, the shooting was covered by CNN, NY Post, The Washington Post, Vox.com, The New Yorker, and Time.com.
On the 2nd page of that Google search, it was covered by USA Today, the New York Times, PBS.org, Good Housekeeping, ABC News, CBS News, The Huffington Post, …
And that was the first 20 hits of about 1.2 million.
The reason the Parkland shooting had extended coverage was probably because of the organized student survivors who fought back against the NRA and demonaded proper firearms legislation.
And when I Googled “Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Parkland Florida”, Google only returned 98,700 hits.
Lloyd,
I should have been more clear regarding the question – it should have been POST- coverage in comparison…. ut the day of coverage was well documented and covered extensively as you so earnestly pointed out… I meant to demonstrate the following:
why the Santa Fe shooting has not caused, created the same post-event panic and chaos that followed the Parkland, Florida, school shooting?
Where are the mobs demanding gun control? Where are the kids on TV? Where’s CNN doing endless whatever they were called, town hall meetings? (interruption)
One reason might be found in a Santa Fe student view: Alex Carvey hugged her friends, shed tears over white crosses bearing her classmates’ names and stood in silence for a moment. Then she reflected on the cause of the violence that hit her hometown.
“I don’t think guns are the problem — I think people are the problem,” Carvey, 16, a student at Santa Fe High School, said. “Even if we did more gun laws, people who are sick enough to do something like this are still going to figure out a way to do it. So it doesn’t matter.”
Many of Carvey’s classmates — along with their parents — agree with her. In contrast to the immediate aftermath of the Feb. 14 massacre in Parkland
“No matter how many laws there are, you can always break them,” said Nora Tulo, 15, a student at the high school.
This section of rural southeast Texas, guns are woven into the history, upbringing and culture, and the relationship with guns gets passed down through the generations.
Parkland, on the other hand, is an upper-middle-class suburb in Florida’s Democrat-voting Broward County. It’s not uncommon for families to have a gun at home for protection, but most students don’t grow up learning how to shoot.
The contrast illustrates the obstacles facing gun control proposals in a country that is deeply divided over whether firearms are part of the problem of school shootings or part of its solution.
Add the Media Matters noted some differences as well:
Fox News quickly blamed the seemingly never-ending cycle of school shootings on violent video games and mental health and called for installing armed guards at schools and giving guns to teachers. MSNBC’s initial coverage tapped into local news outlets periodically and mostly focused on the unfolding facts of the shooting. CNN’s coverage was similarly focused on the emerging facts, with some speculation about the mental health of the shooter.
The networks continued their wall-to-wall coverage throughout most of the day, and it dominated CNN’s prime-time and evening shows as well. MSNBC’s coverage started to wane during the 4 p.m. hour: The shooting was still dominating the discussion, but it wasn’t the sole story covered. Similarly, Fox News started to cover other stories during its 5 p.m. show. Fox News and MSNBC devoted significantly less time to the shooting during their evening programming than CNN did.
By the next day, coverage of the shooting had drastically declined. CNN went from over nine hours of coverage of the massacre on Friday to just under one hour of coverage on Saturday — in large part due to the network’s coverage of the wedding of Britain’s Prince Harry and American actress Meghan Markle. Fox News, which covered the shooting for over seven hours on Friday, dedicated just over two and a half hours to the story on Saturday. One would think that with questions about how to stop the epidemic of school shootings still unanswered, coverage of the massacre would last more than several days. One would be wrong.
“Just one week has passed since the attack — which was the 22nd school shooting this year — but the sense of urgency and alarm about this ongoing crisis has already faded. Networks have moved on to covering fake “spy” scandals, other happenings in the Trump/Russia investigation, and other stories de jour. It says a lot about our society when a mass school shooting fades from our national dialogue in less than a week. In part, it reflects and contributes to the normalization of and desensitization to mass shootings in America. In January, when 16 students were shot in a school shooting in Kentucky, cable news devoted just 16 minutes to covering the rampage the day it happened. There was speculation in the wake of the school shooting in Parkland, FL, in February that news coverage would take mass shootings at schools more seriously. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Methodology: Media Matters searched SnapStream transcripts of CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC for mentions of the word “school” within 10 words of any variation of “shoot,” “Santa Fe,” or “Texas” between 4 a.m. and midnight starting on May 18, the day of the shooting, and ending on Thursday, May 24.
The article had graphs – I deleted them
The difference, I think, is that the students in Florida were eloquent and smart; they had studied debate and theater, subjects that are typically eliminated in Texas by budget cuts. Their government classes were debating gun control. I don’t mean to put down the survivors at Santa Fe, but they live in a gun culture. They probably did not have the full array of courses in their high school (that I had when I went to high school in Texas) because of massive budget cuts, starting in 2011, when the Leg cut over $5 billion from public schools.
The Parkland students are admirable, brilliant, forceful, intelligent, and they will lead us in the future, I hope.
What I hear you saying, jscheidell, is that you prefer high school students who are seen but not heard. Quiet and deferential to their elders.
Meet the Teacher Behind the Parkland Student Activists.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how-do-u-s-gun-laws-compare-to-other-countries
Lloyd: “Most Norwegian police, like the British, do not carry firearms.”
I wish we had a country that was so absent of guns that police wouldn’t need to armed. Compare gun laws in other countries and the number of people killed vs. what is happening in the US.
Guns are killing people and it doesn’t matter unless people rise up and demand better. The NRA is spreading fear. Ever more fear is necessary to keep the bottom line of gun manufactures happy. It is a disgusting revolving door in which nobody wins.
Guns DO kill and we need strict laws so the US can be as safe as other countries. Thanks for the article. I wish every Congressman would read it and learn. Maybe they already know but money speaks volumes so that they can’t hear.
No, Diane -your hearing is clogged by TDS, but I also feel the same is true of the Santa Fe students – despite budget cuts many are bright, intelligent and articulate, and one day they also will be leaders in their own way.
When you have lived as long as I have; when you are a patriotic American, as I am; when you see a total fraud, liar, con man, TV celebrity, Mafia collaborator, Roy Cohn mentee, sexual predator, racist, and phony in the same White House where FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, and JFK were president, it is easy to fall victim to Trump Derangement Syndrome. The man and his family are grifters. He belongs in jail.
“I don’t think guns are the problem — I think people are the problem,” Carvey, 16, a student at Santa Fe High School, said. “Even if we did more gun laws, people who are sick enough to do something like this are still going to figure out a way to do it. So it doesn’t matter.”
To be clear, the pull quote above from jscheidell is where I stopped reading his comment.
If (mentally ill) people are the problem, the (we must) do something about it.
Since those shooters grew up mentally ill, it is obvious that we can’t rely on parents or guardians to “fix” the problem at home.
Logically, our elected leaders pass legislation that punishes any firearm owner that doesn’t lock his or her weapons up so a mentally ill child in their family doesn’t go out and start shooting the children of other families, and we also make it more difficult for mentally ill individuals of any age to legally buy and/or own a firearm of any kind.
The reasoning behind this is simple. “PTSD is not mental incompetence. Now, it is important to note that an individual who is rated at 100% on PTSD could be found incompetent. That rating is very severe. I don’t often encounter Veterans who are rated that high. However, when you research what the criteria is for a 100% rating for PTSD, you’d likely agree that individual with that rating probably shouldn’t own guns. Those individuals could have homicidal and suicidal tendencies. They also may suffer from hallucinations and delusions, among other symptoms.”
I know one combat vet with a rating of 100 percent for his PTSD. Since he was in special forces and served in the Middle East, his training made him dangerous without a firearm but only dangerous for those he can reach with his hands and feet. He also thinks a lot about suicide. That friend qualified as a sniper in the Marines and again in special forces. He served for 14 years. With a firearm, he would be much more dangerous for people even a mile away.
Even though a determined individual could still buy a firearm illegally, that doesn’t mean we should just shrug and do nothing. The actual number of disturbed and dangerous individuals is small, but to shrug and say do nothing is stupid and defeatist.
Smaller class sizes in the public schools would help.
Better teacher training would help.
More counselors per student would help. At the high school where I taught, there was one counselor for each grade level (9, 10, 11, and 12) and there were more than 3,000 students.
Every public school should have a psychologist and a nurse on hand full time.
Firearms in Canada are divided into three classes: nonrestricted weapons, such as ordinary rifles and shotguns; restricted, such as handguns and semiautomatic rifles/shotguns; and prohibited, such as automatic weapons. It is illegal to own a fully automatic weapon unless it was registered before 1978.
In Australia, the National Agreement on Firearms all but prohibited automatic and semiautomatic assault rifles, mandated licensing and registration, and instituted a temporary gun buyback program that took some 650,000 assault weapons (about one-sixth of the national stock) out of public circulation. Among other things, the law also required licensees to demonstrate a “genuine need” for a particular type of gun and take a firearm safety course.
Israel has relatively strict gun regulations, including an assault-weapons ban and a requirement to register ownership with the government. To become licensed, an applicant must be an Israeli citizen or a permanent resident, be at least twenty-one-years-old, and speak at least some Hebrew, among other qualifications. Applicants must also show genuine cause to carry a firearm, such as self-defense or hunting.
There’s more information here: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how-do-u-s-gun-laws-compare-to-other-countries
Lloyd,
Thanks for your update, I apologize for not being clear regarding the intent of the question – it should have been a comparison of POST coverage comparison. As you so earnestly pointed out the coverage was voluminous from the cables.
Why the Santa Fe shooting has not caused, created the same post-event panic and chaos that followed the Parkland, Florida, school shooting? Where are the mobs demanding gun control? Where are the kids on TV?
One reason might be the views that differ between the 2 student populations- thus no camera Hogg: One example is found in Alex Carvey interviewed reflected on the cause of the violence that hit her hometown.
“I don’t think guns are the problem — I think people are the problem,” Carvey, 16, a student at Santa Fe High School, said. “Even if we did more gun laws, people who are sick enough to do something like this are still going to figure out a way to do it. So it doesn’t matter.” Many of Carvey’s classmates — along with their parents — agree with her. In contrast to the immediate aftermath of the Feb. 14 massacre in Parkland
“No matter how many laws there are, you can always break them,” said Nora Tulo, 15, a student at the high school. It doesn’t sound like she is illiterate, and she has an cogent thought to add.
This section of rural southeast Texas, guns are woven into the history, upbringing and culture, and the relationship with guns gets passed down through the generations.
Parkland, on the other hand, is an upper-middle-class suburb in Florida’s.
MediaMatters pointed out the following:
“It took less than a week for CNN, Fox, and MSNBC to drop mentions of the school shooting and its aftermath almost entirely from their news cycles. What started as wall-to-wall coverage on cable news on the day of the shooting dropped to less than five minutes of coverage a week later on all three channels combined.
“Fox News quickly blamed the seemingly never-ending cycle of school shootings on violent video games and mental health and called for installing armed guards at schools and giving guns to teachers. MSNBC’s initial coverage tapped into local news outlets periodically and mostly focused on the unfolding facts of the shooting. CNN’s coverage was similarly focused on the emerging facts, with some speculation about the mental health of the shooter.
The networks continued their wall-to-wall coverage throughout most of the day, and it dominated CNN’s prime-time and evening shows as well. MSNBC’s coverage started to wane during the 4 p.m. hour: The shooting was still dominating the discussion, but it wasn’t the sole story covered. Similarly, Fox News started to cover other stories during its 5 p.m. show. Fox News and MSNBC devoted significantly less time to the shooting during their evening programming than CNN did
By the next day, coverage of the shooting had drastically declined. CNN went from over nine hours of coverage of the massacre on Friday to just under one hour of coverage on Saturday — in large part due to the network’s coverage of the wedding of Britain’s Prince Harry and American actress Meghan Markle
One would think that with questions about how to stop the epidemic of school shootings still unanswered, coverage of the massacre would last more than several days. One would be wrong.
Just one week has passed since the attack — which was the 22nd school shooting this year — but the sense of urgency and alarm about this ongoing crisis has already faded. Networks have moved on to covering fake “spy” scandals, other happenings in the Trump/Russia investigation, and other stories de jour. It says a lot about our society when a mass school shooting fades from our national dialogue in less than a week. In part, it reflects and contributes to the normalization of and desensitization to mass shootings in America. In January, when 16 students were shot in a school shooting in Kentucky, cable news devoted just 16 minutes to covering the rampage the day it happened. There was speculation in the wake of the school shooting in Parkland, FL, in February that news coverage would take mass shootings at schools more seriously. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Methodology: Media Matters searched SnapStream transcripts of CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC for mentions of the word “school” within 10 words of any variation of “shoot,” “Santa Fe,” or “Texas” between 4 a.m. and midnight starting on May 18, the day of the shooting, and ending on Thursday, May 24.”
Carolmalaysia aptly pointed out: There was more coverage for the students in Parkland because they were more literate, more outspoken and demanded attention.
The students in Texas were more conservative and didn’t speak out. You get the coverage that you command.”
NRA was not on their lips as a blame game. Nor Rubio or the govt. The contrast illustrates the obstacles facing gun control proposals in a country that is deeply divided over whether firearms are part of the problem of school shootings or part of its solution.
Jscheidell: “NRA was not on their lips as a blame game.”
Care to explain why the NRA gave my Senator Todd Young [R-IN] $2,896,732? Does the NRA give money because it expects nothing in return?
Why haven’t they given me anything? I’d use it to help my local underfunded schools.
Why was Trump given $30 million by the NRA? What did they expect in return for that money? I’m sure they once again expected nothing. Nope, not any type of loyalty to their cause. Guns never kill but they give to politicians because they are concerned about underpaid/stressed out workers, underfunded schools, healthcare and our failing infrastructure. [Sarcasm alert.]
jscheidell: There was more coverage for the students in Parkland because they were more literate, more outspoken and demanded attention. Most adults, including myself couldn’t speak after the shock of having stepped over dead bodies of friends.
The students in Texas were more conservative and didn’t speak out. You get the coverage that you command.
“As a public figure he is entitled to the criticisms for his actions”
jscheidell, you forgot a word.
criticisms of his “alleged” actions
Often political criticisms focus on cherry-picked phrases that might describe an action think someone said or did.
A thirty-minute speech gets boiled down to the few seconds or minute that can be twisted to mean something else entirely.
But for your hero, the Orange Fuhrer who is clearly the Kremlin’s Agent Orange, a missile aimed at the United States Constitution to destroy it and the country it was written to protect from autocratic, racist, frauds and liars like the thing that Trump is, the facts have become a mountain if evidence that Donald Trump is a criminal, a traitor, and if Muller’s investigation is allowed to be completed, I think he will be found guilty.
Loyd,
One gets accused of an obsession and you provide a prime example – going from Hogg to you Tump Deranged Syndrome…
I’d “fact check” any allegations about David Hogg if I were you. The NRA has made him a target. That means lots of conspiracy theories with no facts behind them.
Are you kidding me?!! You chose the Independent Sentinel for your nonbiased “news” report? You may actually have something worth reporting, but your choice of source does nothing to support your position. Why do you bother posting here? Your contempt “libtards” is not exactly opaque.
Sped,
They were one of the earlier reports but for you and Lloyd I go to the following lame stream media:
Publix suspends political contributions following criticism for …
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/politics/publix-putnam-hogg-protest/index.html
Publix will suspend political donations after protest by Parkland …
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/publix-suspend-political-donations-protest…/story?id…
Publix suspends contributions to Adam Putnam amid David Hogg’s …
https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/publix-suspends-contributions-to-adam-putnam-ami…
That’s good news. David Hogg is a wonderful young man. I look forward to his entry into electoral politics. I would like to see him defeat Rubio.
I appreciated the one “lame stream” link that worked. They told the story with no hyperbole, no loaded language with video links to the chains CEO speaking about their position. While I have mixed feelings about the student’s actions, I share their frustration with the NRA’s resistance to any control of guns. Unfortunately, the only thing that seems to make people pay attention is if you hit them in the pocketbook.
I’ve never heard of the “Independant Sentinel” before so I had to see what I could find out about it.
And I found Media Bias Fact Check.com’s entry.
“These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.”
According the Independent Sentinel’s about page they “provides news, opinion and commentary, analysis, factual and original content, mostly political, usually right-of-center, for a Conservative, Libertarian, Republican audience.”
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/independent-sentinel/
Interpreted: The Independent Sentinel provides propaganda for people that want fake news that supports their confirmation bias, because the facts and the truth do not support that bias.
Diane,
I forgot one of you other obsessions – collusion – still holding our breath on this one – can we call the episode – Clinton Collusion 101 – from Russia with Love, Money and Spies!
The difference is this. Collusion with a foreign power to rig the election is a crime. In fact, it is treason. Are you suggesting it should not be investigated? I have been politically alert since the Truman administration and I never knew a candidate or president whose campaign met so frequently with Russians. Can you? Is this why Republicans are called the “red” party?
yes, investigate it, but give just as much investigation to the Clintons and the foundation. But don’t you think with a spy/informant in trump’s campaign it would have appeared? I guess we should put the same tactic in all campaigns for “protection of our voting processes” – a reason I find to be a stretch –
I previously gave you the historical reasons for why political parties ended up with the colors- not any of the reasons fit your remark.
But let me note the appropriate symbol – animal used to designate the Dems – is this why some called them jackasses?
When o worked in DC, the joke around town was that the Republicans were the stupid party and the Democrats were the evil party.
Now they have switched places.
“yes, investigate it, but give just as much investigation to the Clintons and the foundation.”
The Clinton’s have already been investigated repeatedly and have always been found innocent of the allegations. Bill Clinton was even impeached but the Senate voted against removing him from office.
For instance: Were 22 Clinton Foundation Employees Arrested on First Day of FBI Investigation?
Snopes rates this as FALSE
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/22-clinton-foundation-employees-arrested/
And “The FBI has been investigating the Clinton Foundation for months, reviving a probe that was dialed back during the 2016 campaign amid tensions between Justice Department prosecutors and FBI agents about the politically charged case, according to people familiar with the matter.” …
“The Clinton Foundation probe dates to 2015, when FBI agents in Los Angeles, New York, Little Rock and Washington began looking at those who had made donations to the charity, based largely on news accounts, according to people familiar with the matter.” …
“The Clinton Foundation has raised billions of dollars since it was formed and generally receives high marks from philanthropy watchdog organizations. But because of its global donor base and Clinton’s former position as the United States’ top diplomat, it also faced questions about contributions from countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Algeria.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-fbi-is-investigating-the-clinton-foundation/2018/01/05/1aca0d4a-f1cf-11e7-97bf-bba379b809ab_story.html?utm_term=.08e24ceeae51
This explains how I feel beautifully.
…………..
Heidi Hess, CREDO Action
Tell Republicans in Congress: Thoughts and prayers are not enough. Gun control now.
The petition to Republicans in Congress reads:
“Put your constituents before the National Rifle Association. Take immediate action to pass gun control legislation.”
Tell Republicans in Congress: Thoughts and prayers are not enough. Gun control now.
It happened again. At least 10 people were killed by gun violence in a Texas high school, and Republican leaders offered nothing but their thoughts and prayers.
Their cowardly responses to the killings at Santa Fe High School were the same they offered after Parkland, Sutherland Springs, Vegas, Pulse and Sandy Hook.
It is time for Republicans in Congress to join Democrats in standing up to the National Rifle Association and pass gun control legislation that will save lives.
Tragic mass shootings have become all too common. Santa Fe was the 22nd school shooting and the 101st mass shooting of the year. And while these mass events receive more media attention, we cannot forget the gun violence that strikes people, families and communities across the country on a daily basis, killing 5,600 and injuring more than 10,000 so far this year.
There’s one reason why politicians consistently fail to take real action on gun violence: the National Rifle Association. The NRA has a chokehold on Congress that keeps most bills about gun control from even coming to the floor for a vote. Politicians beholden to – or afraid of – the NRA are willing to turn their backs on their constituents when it comes time to implement reasonable limits and controls on guns. But you can count on them for a “heartbroken” tweet about their “thoughts and prayers” when a tragic shooting makes the national news.
So the father of the accused Texas shooter says the guns he owned were legal. This fellow has had altercations with the law. Because of that, he should NOT have been legally able to purchase guns. Lax gun laws in Texas are responsible for innocent lives being ended before their time. The father blames the school. I’d say the father and son have had some undisclosed problems.
……………….
Father of Accused Texas Shooter Believes Bullying Was Behind Rampage
Antonios Pagourtzis says 17-year-old son was a ‘good boy’ who had been ‘mistreated at school’…Wall Street Journal
By Costas Paris
Updated May 21, 2018 1:44 p.m. ET
The father of the 17-year-old charged with killing 10 people at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas, said Monday that his son was a “good boy” and had been “mistreated at school.”
Antonios Pagourtzis said in a brief phone interview with The Wall Street Journal that his son Dimitrios was bullied and “I believe that’s what was behind” the shooting.
Dimitrios Pagourtzis is being held without bond at the Galveston County Jail after he allegedly burst into an art classroom Friday morning at Santa Fe High School armed with a shotgun and pistol and opened fire, before surrendering to police. In a probable cause statement, authorities said he admitted to the shooting.
The Santa Fe Independent School District didn’t respond to requests for comment on whether Dimitrios Pagourtzis was bullied. On Saturday, it denied reports that he was bullied by high-school coaches in this small rural Texas town southeast of Houston…
During Friday’s shooting, Dimitrios Pagourtzis was armed with a Remington shotgun and a .38 caliber pistol, according to the probable cause statement. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said the guns belonged to the elder Mr. Pagourtzis.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is in the process of running traces on the weapons to determine their purchase history.
Antonios Pagourtzis wouldn’t comment in his interview with the Journal on how his son acquired the weapons.
In an interview with Greek Antenna Television on Saturday, Antonios Pagourtzis confirmed the guns were his. “I have guns, I am a hunter and had a farm which I rented in the 1980s,” he said, speaking in Greek. “The guns in my house are legal and declared.”
The elder Mr. Pagourtzis has faced criminal charges 10 times in Harris County, Texas, since the 1980s, court records show. Three of the cases led to convictions—an illegal dumping case in 2008 and two liquor-related cases from the ’80s. In the most recent case, he was charged with assault with bodily injury in 2012, court records show. The case was dismissed…
Well, that settles it. This husky kid was “bullied.” What choice did he have other than to kill eight students and two teachers? (For the stupid: sarcasm alert)