One of our readers called Threatened Out West told us that schools cannot force students to participate in patriotic exercises, based on a court case from the 1940s. He/she was right.
TOW wrote:
“I know that it’s not quite the same situation, but is this even legal?
“Legally, schools CANNOT force students to stand or pledge. See West Virginia v. Barnette: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/319us624
“So would this be the same for the National Anthem?”
This item appeared in Politico.
“KNEELING UNDER FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS: As President Donald Trump has escalated a war with the NFL during the past week, student athletes may be tempted to also take a knee in protest on the football field tonight – and they have a constitutionally protected right to do so. Despite that, at least one school district has attempted to curb protests by threatening punishments ranging from extra running during practice to being kicked off the team, drawing the attention of the ACLU (and many people on Twitter and Facebook).
“- All high school principals in Bossier Parish in Louisiana are sending letters to student athletes and their families “making their expectations known as it pertains to proper decorum when the National Anthem is played at sporting events,” Sonja Bailes, a district spokeswoman, told Morning Education. Superintendent Scott Smith said in a statement: “In Bossier Parish, we believe when a student chooses to join and participate on a team, the players and coaches should stand when our National Anthem is played in a show of respect.” He added, “It is a choice for students to participate in extracurricular activities, not a right, and we at Bossier Schools feel strongly that our teams and organizations should stand in unity to honor our nation’s military and veterans.”
“- The directive was sent “in light of the national conversation currently taking place,” Smith said. Trump has been at war with the NFL, where players have chosen to kneel during the anthem – first to protest police brutality and racial injustice, and increasingly as a response to the president’s calls for them to be fired. Trump has said team owners should force players to stand for the anthem, and fire them if they don’t. We have the full story here.
“- The Supreme Court, however, has ruled that students “do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate” – and that extends to the football field, Frank LoMonte told Morning Education. LoMonte is the director of the University of Florida’s Brechner Center for Freedom of Information and the former director of the Student Press Law Center. School officials can only limit speech if it’s impeding the school’s ability to conduct business by causing a substantial disruption – something that would be very difficult to prove at a sporting event, he said.
“- “In a classroom, we expect everyone to stay silently in a seat, but in the stadium, there are people turning cartwheels and doing backflips on the sidelines, there are people waving banners and painting their faces, there are people getting up to buy hot dogs and talking on their cellphones,” LoMonte said. “In that atmosphere, it would be exceptionally challenging to say that a silent display of dissent is a substantial disruption.”
“- The principal of Parkway High School in Bossier Parish wrote in a letter that the school “requires student athletes to stand in a respectful manner” during the anthem, and that those who don’t comply could be kicked off the team. A picture of the letter was posted to Twitter by Shaun King of the Intercept and was retweeted thousands of times. Another district official told the Shreveport Times that potential punishments range from “extra running to a one-game suspension.” The school’s Facebook page was flooded with angry comments, as well.
“- The ACLU of Louisiana issued a statement calling the Bossier Parish school officials’ threats to punish students who protest “antithetical to our values as Americans and a threat to students’ constitutional rights.” Marjorie Esman, the executive director of the ACLU of Louisiana, told Morning Education in an interview that “the Supreme Court has been very clear that schools, government officials, cannot suppress a student’s right to protest – even on a team, even during a game. To refuse to salute the flag, say the pledge, all of those thing – they are protected by the United States Constitution.”
Question: do students in schools have rights that athletes in pre-game ceremonies do not have?
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Kneeling is a peaceful way to express one’s opinion!
Kneeling is like prayer
Kneeling as protest cam as a result of Colin K’s discussion with a combat vet who told him that kneeling was a sign of respect done to honor a fallen comrade, among other purposes it serves in military service. Another good question is that since we assume this right to protest also hold true for students in private and charter schools, what other rights that charter students are denied are actually done so in violation of their constitutional rights, other judgements notwithstanding? Can silencing an entire classroom be viewed as the violation of free speech rights when it can be shown that it does not actually interrupt learning and is does not represent a discipline problem? Marching in line? Clothing? One hopes for a slippery slope here, no?
“. . . since we assume this right to protest also hold true for students in private and charter schools. . .”
Those rights do not hold for students in private and charter unless the charter is operated and perhaps if authorized by a local public school district. The guarantees private and public entities are separate in this regard.
So no, all those malpractices you cite, Jon, have to be “fought” against by a different means other than the courts.
pres has changed the message. He’s spun to his base (of course) (whose only education and news is via twitter) that protesting during the Anthem is anti-U.S. Veterans and soldiers. Unpatriotic.
I hope the NFL players (and others) stand and salute during the Anthem – – and wear protest armbands against the pres and the injustices he represents.
he approves of kkk’ers and white nationalists and calls NFL Players s.o.b.s THAT is protest-worthy along with the hundreds of despicable appointments (see latest ed gov appt) and statements he’s made
I have no problem with students kneeling during the anthem. But that’s the least of our schools’ problems:
Many schools are like this. I’d be curious to know what readers here think should be done to fix a school like this.
Can’t agree that “many schools are like this”. Are there a few that are that bad? Obviously. Where the hell are the adults who are supposed to be in charge. The school administration must be totally incompetent to have allowed what was going on to happen over such a length of time.
What should be done?
Fire all the administrators first and go from there.
I don’t agree that the administration must be incompetent. I have a ton of sympathy for the administrators who work in schools like this –I’m sure they endure dangerous levels of stress on a daily basis. My own relatively tame suburban middle school has significant behavior problems that administrators can barely keep on top of. Subs get run over and won’t come back. Bullying seems unstoppable despite an anti-bullying curriculum and valiant efforts by the leadership students. Is it unreasonable for me to infer that it must be much worse at the thousands of public schools in lower-income areas? What are the administrators at Urban Academy supposed to do, Duane?
I don’t have that sympathy whatsoever for adminimals such as those who are running that school. NONE! And if they can’t handle your suburban setting, they’re all the worse and shouldn’t be in that position.
And if the current adminimals can’t get it done, and they are allowed to continue in their position, then one has to look upward on the administrative chart to see who to properly blame for such an outrageous environment in a school.
As far as your last question: Right now the only honorable thing for those adminimals to do would be to resign. Plain and simple!
No, many schools are not like this. That’s why this incident made the news. You just have to insist that every school is full of raging animals that have to be violently suppressed, don’t you? If anything, I’d guess that maybe this school is too oppressive. The stricter the school, the more bullying because kids don’t learn to relate to anyone other than on power terms.
I wish this were true.
“Takeaknee Eradication”
Bury my Heart
At Takeaknee
Taking apart
Democracy
Probably your best yet, SomeDAM. Sometimes, you take a leap from the whimsical to the profound.
Thanks. That means a lot coming from you, Bob.
Every once in a while, I get serious.
It doesn’t happen very often, thank goodness.
Bury my heart
With grizzly b
Taken apart
By Betsy D.
Good to be back to whimsical.
LOL
I have been fighting against this forced patriotism for years, and felt like this was the same type of situation.
I’m very patriotic and love the Constitution and what it stands for. But I read a book by noted historian Richard Ellis several years ago detailing the history of the Pledge of Allegiance and what has happened to children who would not pledge.
I learned a LOT from that book, and it changed my whole perspective on the pledge. There was actually a Supreme Court case from less than a decade previous to Barnette that had ruled that children could be forced to pledge. But the situation got out of hand quickly. Children (often Jehovah Witnesses) were badly beaten for refusing to pledge. Some were expelled from school, and then arrested, or their parents arrested, for violating truancy laws. So the Supreme Court got involved again and changed the precedent that they had stated less than a decade before (which is extraordinarily unusual).
Nearly every year I have to fight against some teacher or administrator who wants to “force” kids to pledge or stand for the National Anthem or the Pledge.
Ellis mentions that very few countries have the sort of requirements to pledge to their government as the U.S. does, and that the vast majority of those are totalitarian dictatorships.
If I could get away with it, I wouldn’t pledge, either, after reading this book.
The book’s title is: “To the Flag: The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Allegiance.” Worth a read: https://www.amazon.com/Flag-Unlikely-History-Pledge-Allegiance/dp/0700615210
“and that the vast majority of those are totalitarian dictatorships”
of course
For a country to be worth pledging allegiance to, it must be one where such a pledge is not mandatory–in other words, a free one.
“Anthem Standing”
To stand for the anthem
The anthem must stand
For something to fan them
Something that’s grand
Something like Woody Guthrie’s “This Land is your Land”, for example.
Now, THAT would be a truly great National anthem, wouldn’t it?
Of course, Woodie Guthrie was a commie pinko singing about communist ideals so there is zero chance his song would ever be selected.
Especially not the verse about private property
There was a big high wall there, that tried to stop me;
Sign was painted, said ‘private property’s
But on the other side, it don’t say nothing
This land was made for you and me
And the final verse
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking that freedom highway
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.
In the squares of the city, in the shadow of the steeple
By the relief office, I’d seen my people
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?
Guthrie wrote the song (which he originally titled “God blessed America for me” and originally included that as the refrain at the end of each verse) because he was tired of hearing God Bless America on the radio.
And of course, God Bless America is the song most often cited as a possible replacement for the current anthem.
“said private property”
Not “private property’s”
This autocorrect was definitely not made for you and me.
I guess America the Beautiful is the one most often cited, not God Bless America
SDP, you are right.
The question of changing the national anthem has been raised for many years. Most usually, the song preferred is America the Beautiful. The Star Spangled Banner is criticized for being militaristic, difficult to sing, hard to remember the lyrics beyond the first verse.
Nothing changes.
Curious facts. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Socialist. America the Beautiful was written by a lesbian. God Bless America was written by a Jew.
tRump is CRAZY and illiterate. He has NO CLUE about Our Constitution and Bill of Rights. He’s a BULLY, a MORON and a LIAR.
Thank you, once again, ACLU. I just don’t think they is a more focused and righteous outfit (in the good and honest sense).
This case – in Bossier Parish schools – illustrates just how incredibly dumb and cowardly some school administrators can be.
The school superintendent, Scott Smith, was hired about a year ago. He isn’t new to administration, since he was a high school principal for 14 years, and an assistant principal for four; so, he should know about school law and students’ rights. In fact, so should all administrators, and teachers.
But, the school district sits near an air force base, and has a “partnership” with it. I’ll be charitable and say that this helped to color the superintendent’s (bad) decision on the national anthem, which the school principal, a former student of Scott, chose (blindly) to follow.
When he was hired, Smith said superintendents needed to be “knowledgeable and flexible.” A school board member said he would “make our community proud.” Interestingly, the school division mission statement says that one of its chief goals is that students will achieve “respect for…the values inherent in a democracy,” and the School Board pledges that each student will be “exposed to experiences that will encourage the development of citizenship.”
The Supreme Court decided in the middle of WWII (West Virginia .v Barnette, 1943) that “compelling the flag salute and pledge…invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.”
It decided in 1989 (Texas v. Johnson) that “We do not consecrate the flag by punishing its desecration, for in doing so we dilute the freedom that this cherished emblem represents.”
Take a peek at Scott Smith:
http://www.bossierschools.org/supt_office
It appears that students are getting the exact wrong lessons in democratic citizenship. They are not learning respect for democratic values, nor are they being “exposed to experiences that will encourage the development of citizenship,” unless of course, obedience to authoritarianism is the desired outcome.
There are lots and lots of people in this country who do not subscribe to the core values of a democratic republic: popular sovereignty, equality, justice, freedoms for all citizens, tolerance, and promoting the general welfare. Among them are the Neo-Nazis, the white nationalists and white supremacists, and those who bought into Trump’s racist, xenophobic, misogynist, and Russian-aided campaign.
I’ll ask the question once again. Isn’t it time that public schooling get away from “college and careers,” and ACT and SAT tests, and AP courses and tests, and rededicate itself to civic education?
Forced oaths of allegiance are oxymoronic.
“Of Oaths and Oafs”
Oxymoronic oaths
To toxymoronic oafs
When first amendment posts
Free-speech is worth the most