Chalkbeat reports that the Indiana voucher program includes religious schools that openly discriminate against students who are gay, lesbian, transsexual, or bisexual.
“Our investigation found that roughly one in 10 of Indiana’s voucher schools publicly shares a policy suggesting or declaring that LGBT students are not welcome. Together, the 27 schools received over $16 million in public funds for participating last year.
“Many private, religious schools are also accredited by a group that provides advice about how to turn away LGBT students. Given that nearly 20 percent of schools do not publicize their admissions policies, the true number of schools with anti-LGBT policies is unclear.
“These findings are likely an understatement,” said Steve Suitts, a professor who has researched discrimination against LGBT students in Georgia’s voucher program.
“However, Chalkbeat did not find public, discriminatory policies at the vast majority of schools. In fact, many had rules in place to protect students from discrimination based on sexual orientation.”
Of the schools that receive vouchers, 27 specifically prohibit gay students, while another 27 have protections for them. Most have no policy at all.
Is it against the law to discriminate against gay students? There is no law specifically protecting gay students?
What will DeVos do if the matter comes before her? Her family’s foundations funded the leading anti-gay organizations so don’t expect any federal guidance while she is there.
Indiana has the largest voucher program in the country. It enrolls almost 35,000 students. The public school enrollment is slightly more than one million. Thus, slightly more than 3% of students in the state have chosen to use a voucher. A recent study found that attendance at a voucher school lowered academic achievement. After three or four years, the students in voucher schools caught up with their public school peers, but the weakest students had returned to public schools within two or three years.
Diane, I just posted a reply and it went nowhere. Opps…. Carol
Carol, no comments in moderation
Diane, I just sent it again and it evaporated. Guess it really wasn’t that important. LOL It was a letter to my Indiana state Senator and State Representative regarding the usage of vouchers.
I’ve had that happen before, and then when I tried to repost it tells me it’s a duplicate post. Then sometime in the future WordPress will decide to post it. Diane has no control over what wordpress does and sometimes it seems like it has a mind of its own.
Ir is shameful that public money is being used to discriminate against LGBT young people. This is exactly what a large number of right wing Christian groups want. When we put public money into private hands, young people lose any protections afforded to them in the public domain. These schools can discriminate and ignore IDEA laws and use public funds to do it. We all remember how cagey Cruella DeVos was when she was being questioned by Al Franken. She was like a broken record, “All schools that receive federal funds must follow federal law.” She refused to answer any questions about discrimination. She knows that there is an abundance of de facto discrimination in private schools, but she fondly calls it “choice.”
By the way, according to Sessions, transsexual students are not a protected class under federal law. It is dubious that any such law to protect these young people would gain any traction under this administration. That is why military career transsexuals are very worried about the future.
According to Sessions, people who are gay are not protected against discrimination by federal law
I was just reading something that someone in my condo building posted on the information bulletin board. It told who to contact to find out the true meaning of the bible regarding gays and transsexual people. I didn’t take this hate-filled paper down but might next time I go past it.
How can anyone believe that a creation of God is to be hated and humiliated? I believe the bible can ‘prove’ almost anything. It’s a matter of picking and being slightly creative.
My brother is a born again Christian. He has told me that Obama was killing people in concentration camps. Pope Francis is being controlled by Satan. His most recent email was something about how the nations of the world joining in climate change was being done to unite the world so that Satan could create a new one world order that will rule us all. I’ve learned to delete this type of stuff without any comment.
I believe this information is coming from some online source. I’m sure it isn’t coming from born again Christians.
There are definitely some hate-filled online garbage and people are buying it. I just hope there aren’t too many who read and believe this stuff.
Please use “transgender” rather than “transsexual”…it is the preferred term both politically and as a self description by transgender people.
You know, this really reminds me of the response of so many Southern school districts after the Brown v Board of Education decision.
They opened up a lot of “private academies”
for white kids, and in some districts just shut down the entire district and closed all the schools. And for awhile, until the courts shut that avenue down, they gave public money to
those all-white schools, as well.
Discrimination is discrimination. No public money should be going to schools like this.
(Of course, no public money should be going to any school that discriminates for any reason. Nor any school that is not totally accountable to the public and totally transparent. And that includes charter schools.
After the Brown decision many Christian, mostly white schools, opened in the south. People like DeVos know it is almost impossible to prove de facto segregation. They refuse to even utter the word “discrimination,” even though they are clearly doing it. They prefer to discriminate through “choice,” because “failing” public schools are the civil rights issue of our times. Barf!
Exactly, rt.
It should make all of us sick to our stomachs. 😦
I like your phrase “discrimination is discrimination.” As carolmalaysia says above, “How can anyone believe that a creation of God is to be hated and humiliated?”
And yet we’re stuck in this odd legal system where we have to detect & defend each group discriminated against [as fast as they come out of the closet, they’re targeted] so as to add them to 14th Amendment protection– drawing scathing criticism of ‘political correctness’, ‘reverse discrimination’ etc from right-wing hate-based groups who use the pretense that the nation was established for WASPs only to hide fears that the pie is too small to be shared.
Wasn’t “all men [humans] are created equal” clear enough?
Beth, apparenltly, “all men (meaning all humans) are created equal” has not sunk into the understanding of some of these people. 😦
Other than protesting, there isn’t much anyone can do to shift the tide until the 2018 elections, and, for sure, the extremist billionaires will be spending more money than ever to support their extremist candidates. It’s possible that the 2018 election will see more money spent than a presidential election year.
Organizing for that election and supporting progressive candidates is more important than anything else we can do at this time. Since we can’t match the billionaires dollar for dollar, and we can’t depend on the media, that means organizing at the community level and putting millions of feet on the ground going door to door as early as possible.
I did that yesterday, pounding the pavement and letting people know that 700,000 people have been purged from being able to vote in NW Indiana. People are not being notified when this happens. Guess our Republican leaders want to be sure they are kept in power. Whatever happened to everyone has the right to vote?
Thank you for getting out to pound the pavement and spread the world.
Your right to vote has been purchased by the wealthy.
Now, just sit down and relax and let them control everything. After all, they know best and would never do anything that could hurt the country. /sn
Thank you carolmalaysia!
Yes. ^^This^^ Lloyd.
Good old failed Governor Sam Brownback who hates poor people and the LGBT community is up for the Trump appointment to be the international ambassador for religious liberty.
If confirmed, he will work within the State Department representing the U.S. Government’s views on “religious liberty.” That phrase is intended to signal that Trump and friends are out to nullify an Obama-era executive order protecting the LGBT community. At the same time, Brownback is filling a position that was in place during the Obama administration. https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-arizona-republic/20170813/281900183313274
I wonder if Brownback is destined to support “religious liberty” in the ten countries where the penalty for being LGBT is death? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.56565c18c022
The religious liberty Brownback will probably support is freedom to burn alleged witches at the stake, turn alleged heretics over to the grand inquisitor to be tortured, and call for a Crusade to raise up the rabble and invade the Middle East with a volunteer army of millions of the idiotic faithful.
Hopefully, if that happens, all those ignorant deplorables that support Trump will join that Crusade and waddle to Iran or Syria, stopping along the way at every McDonalds and bar to eat and drink, thinking that it’s going to be easy to destroy Islam, and then the rest of us can sit back and watch as the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and ISIS slaughter them using ambushes and IEDs.
SO. What else is new???
Just to be clear, I am opposed to vouchers for private and parochial K-12 schools. I also think any publicly funded K-12 schools should be open to all – no admissions tests.
Joe,
I concur, but would add this to your sentence “Just to be clear, I am opposed to vouchers for private and parochial K-12 schools AND ANY TAX MONIES GOING TO PRIVATE CHARTERS WHETHER FOR PROFIT OR NOT.
Can you agree with that?
In regards to “no admission tests”, would you be willing to include the thought that “publicly funded K-12 schools should be open to all-no admissions test and whoever walks in to sign up is accepted unless the school capacity has been reached”?
HI Duane – The democratically elected state legislators in 43 states have decided that charters are part of public education. So I include them as public school options.
As noted repeatedly here, in Ed Week, newspaper columns and various public presentations, I think (and have worked actively over 45 years) to promote local, state and national policies that do not permit publicly funded K-12 schools from using any form of admissions tests.
Re admitting students during the year if the school is school capacity – tough issue. Some district educators working in Montessori and language immersion district educators have argued against allowing students to transfer into school during the school year, even if they have space. In fact, some of them have argued that the school should have to admit students only at the entry level (that is, at the grade level where the school starts).
They’ve told me (and the districts in which they work that it’s not fair to the school to admit students at a K-6 immersion school after Kg or perhaps 1st grade because they will be so far behind in terms of speaking the language. I’ve head similar arguments from district Montessori educators who think students only should be admitted only at the first or second grade level of the school because of distinctive nature of learning and teaching at the school.
I understand the argument. I’m not sure that I agree youngsters should be allowed to enter these schools at only certain grade levels.
I know that some charters don’t “back fill.” Just like the arguments made by some Montessori and language immersion educators, I’m not sure I agree.
What do you (and others) think?
And I and the charter sector disagree with both you and the state legislators as to those private schools being “public” for they, the charter sector have argued in courts and before the NLRB that they are private entities and no one has the right to see their books. All public schools have to completely open their books to anyone.
So no I don’t agree that those self-proclaimed private charter schools are truly public schools.
As far as Montessori and immersion schools not accepting students after K or 1st grade because the students may not understand/fit in/struggle in the school. Is that not a form of an “entrance/admission test” then? In my mind that is exactly what it is.
I agree, Duane. If they state that they are “private entities” and should not have to open their books, then they should not be receiving public money. Period.
You are either public or private. If you’re public, you need to be transparent and accountable to the public giving you money.
Public money should always be accompanied by accountability
Absolutely, Diane.
There should be no question about this.
When legislatures are bought by charter money, funded by Waltons and other billionaires, their decisions are corrupt. Calling a private corporation “public” doesn’t make it public.
A legislature could pass a law declaring that a horse was a camel. But it would still be a horse. Charters are not public schools because legislatures call them so. Public schools are local, not corporate. They are democratically controlled, not controlled by private boards. They are accountable and transparent.
If the definition of public schools is that they are run by locally elected boards, then the schools in for example, NYC, Chicago, Boston, Baltimore and a variety of others are not “public” schools.
Here’s a list of some of these from the National League of Cities
http://www.nlc.org/list-of-mayor-controlled-public-schools
Moreover, as has been noted here before, several states
* have tuition free public schools that are statewide and not run by locally elected boards
* permit high school students to attend colleges and universities not run by local school boards, with state funds following the students, paying tuition.
These are all part of public education.
Joe
Public schools in the cities you mention are under the control of elected officials, not corporate boards.
Charter schools are not public schools. That has to date been the finding of the NLRD and federal courts and the Supreme Court of Washington state.
I know that Trump and DeVos agree with you.
Joe – how do you reconcile the fact that charter schools themselves argue that they are not public schools when it comes to things like labor relations or financial transparency? Does that bother you at all?
Dienne, yes, what you describe bothers me a lot. Some of us have worked hard and in many states successfully to insure that state charter laws require for example, public closure about budgets, public notification of and records of board meetings, public ownership of buildings that are purchased with tax funds.
Joseph, as a parent who sent 3 kids to Montessori PreK/K/summer-camp– & as a Span & Fr lang teacher to PreK/K– I cannot condone the adm policies you cite re: Montessori & lang-immersion schools. If their commitment to their pedagogies is so weak-kneed that they believe it can only help kids progress who are there from K on, well, that’s just pathetic. From what I know of these pedagogies, even one year’s attendance at any grade-level would give any student a new perspective on ed. Which makes me wonder if those schools are not coming from some state-imposed accountability system.
Interesting question. In both cases (in two different urban districts), some educators and parents in these schools felt that students who did not enter in the first year of the program would find it frustrating.
Perhaps behind this expressed concern was a concern about how well students would perform on state tests. But that was not the expressed concern.
The Indiana Ed Dept puts out a list of the sectarian private schools that qualify for voucher aid. The list includes two Islamic schools. Also, North Carolina’s voucher plan’s leading recipient of voucher funds is an Islamic school. Yet we hear no complaints.
There are no complaints, because governments are permitted to aid religiously-based enterprises, that have a secular purpose. Tax dollars can go to religiously-based organizations that:
-Run a food bank
-Operate a battered-women’s shelter
-Operate a drug rehabilitation clinic
-Operate a hospital
-Operate a playground on a school campus
See Trinity Lutheran School v. Pauley (2017).
Individuals may use BEOG’s to attend the Islamic University of Minnesota (and other Islamic institutions of higher learning.)
It is worth noting, that when Christian Europeans were praying to the bones of their saints, for cures, Islamic doctors were performing complex surgeries. Islamic doctors drew the only diagrams of the human anatomy, because the Roman Catholic Church forbade autopsies for hundreds of years. Islamic people pioneered chemotherapy, biology, dentistry, and all types of science and mathematics, when Europe was in the “dark ages”. Even the word “Algebra”, is an Arabic word.
I am glad that our nation is supporting children, who are getting educated in Madrasses and Islamic universities, at government expense.
Our civilization owes a great deal to the Islamic world. It is time to start paying back.
I already paid, Charles. Your turn.
We are talking about church-run private schools, which are clearly religious institutions, not charities. Charles does not get the point: that tax aid to church schools violates every taxpayer’s religious liberty right not to be forced to support sectarian religious institutions, and that tax aid to sectarian schools tends to fragment the student population along religious, ideological, ethnic, social class and other lines. Wake up and smell the coffee, Charles.
@Edd: Sorry Edd, YOU do not get the point. The Supreme Court ruled in Zelman v. Simmons-Harris (2002), that a state may provide financial aid to parents (in the form of a voucher) to attend a religiously-operated school, as long as the program is part of an overall program of school choice. This has been settled constitutional law for over 15 years.
No one sacrifices their religious liberty, when their tax dollars go to families who choose to educate their children in a private school, that is run by a religious organization. You are just as free to worship as you please, in a state which has school choice, as in a state which does not.
The fact is, that the states may not prohibit the free exercise of religion. When the Supreme Court ruled in 2017 (Trinity School District v. Pauley), that states could not discriminate in providing funding to a school for secular purposes (like a playground, open to all children), this decision prohibited religious discrimination.
You speak of “fragmenting” the student population on religious/ethnic/ideological lines. School choice does no such thing. Sending an Asian kid to a public school, does not make him white. He is still Asian. Our nation is already diverse, with a whole “rainbow” of faiths and ethnicities. And there is ample evidence, that school choice is the “fast track” to integration, because private/parochial schools can accept more students from a more diverse socio-economic background.
You (and the opponents) of school choice, need to wake up an smell the coffee. (Coffee, BTW, is from an Arabic word Kha-Whah, The Arabs were the first to roast coffee beans, and brew the beverage, another debt we owe to the Islamic world).
Charles,
School Choice promotes segregation. That is why the southern segregationists loved Choice. When children and families never meet anyone different from themselves, it creates social fragmentation.
Q I already paid, Charles. Your turn. END Q
What do you mean? One way that our nation and our civilization can return the gifts which the Islamic/Arab world have showered upon us, is to support the freedom of religion, which is part of our splendid heritage and tradition.
All Americans should support the freedom to worship, according to the dictates of conscience. When an Islamic congregation wants to build a mosque in your community, you should embrace them. Islam is already the third largest religion in the USA, and it is growing fast.
We should support the right of religiously-bound parents (including Muslims), to educate their children, in the manner befitting their choices, including providing vouchers to parents who choose to educate their children in Madrasses.
Freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution. That includes the right to maintain religious schools. Nothing in the Constitution requires the public to pay for religious education. You should not pay for my grandchildren’s religious education. That’s their family’s responsibility.
Charles either does not understand, or deliberately chooses not to understand, that “freedom of religion” also means “freedom from religion.”
I do not want my tax dollars going to support any religious school, no matter the sect. Parents should certainly be free to send their children to such schools, but that does not mean that I want to subsidize their religious beliefs.
Oh, and, by the way, I would not grant tax exemptions to churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc. Not for everything they take in. I would allow them to get tax breaks for anything they do that is actually a charity. Food pantries, collecting clothing for the poor, housing the homeless, helping those who have been displaced by fire, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and so on. Other than that, no tax breaks.
…”including providing vouchers to parents who choose to educate their children in Madrasses.”
You have to be kidding. Madrasses espouse the worst of the far conservatism in the Far East. I wouldn’t denigrate the word Muslim with that destructive mind set.
I worked in a Muslim country and have the deepest regard for Muslims. I have a copy of the Koran which was given to me by a deeply religious Muslim friend.
Money that goes into vouchers is taking money away from public schools. It is the duty of this country to support public school education.
The Supreme Court also said Citizens United is just fine. Look at the extreme damage that ruling has had on this country. The Supreme Court, unfortunately, is political and makes huge mistakes in some judgements. Hopefully, time and enough protests will change both of these disastrous decisions.
Q …”including providing vouchers to parents who choose to educate their children in Madrasses.”
You have to be kidding. Madrasses espouse the worst of the far conservatism in the Far East. I wouldn’t denigrate the word Muslim with that destructive mind set.
END Q
I am stone-serious. Catholic parents accept school vouchers to send their children to Catholic-run schools. Baptist parents accept vouchers to send their children to Baptist-run academies. In New Orleans, some Baptist parents send their children to Catholic run schools. And in the USA, where we have religious freedom, Islamic parents will be accepting vouchers to send their children to Islamic-run schools (Madrasses).
There is a Madras just down the road from me, in Herndon, VA. I support their right to worship as they see fit, and to operate schools which teach what they wish. see
http://www.kaa-herndon.com/
If you do not support the freedom of Muslims to operate their own schools in this nation, what do you support? Some Roman Catholic schools are “conservative” in their outlook, especially when it comes to topics like reproductive rights, and LGBT rights. Would you oppose giving parents the right to select to send their children to such “conservative: institutions?
I think you mean “Near East” or “Mid East”, instead of “Far East”. I too, lived and worked in predominately Islamic countries. (one year in Saudi Arabia).
I did mean Middle East and not Far East. I just sent it before making the correction.
People can send their children to any religious place that they want but shouldn’t be supported by tax dollars. I don’t want to pay for Madrassas nor do I want to pay for a religious school that believes the earth is 6,000 years old and people rode on dinosaurs.
My dislike of Madrassas is that they, at least in the version supported by Saudi Arabia, export extreme hatred and advocate violence as an acceptable way to fight non-believers. This is not an acceptable thing to ever be taught in this country.
Oh come on, Charles. Diane has it right when she says “Nothing in the Constitution requires the public to pay for religious education.”
According to your cites it’s already a done deal, yet none of the court decisions you cite make it OK for pooled local taxes to support local K-12 religious education. But if it were to be voted in locally– & perhaps in a few regions we’re close to that [thinking of FL]– for sure, locals would be reqd to support Islamic schools as well as Christian schools– so what?
Nobody on this comment board is saying that Islamic culture is inferior to Christian culture. What we’re saying here is that the founding fathers had a clue when they wrote the Constitution– even tho they left states free to make stupid mistakes, like voting to pool local funds to support religious schools. The founding fathers came here to escape 18thC Euro culture, which at that time exerted state authority to oppress politically-incorrect religious practice. They hoped to establish a country where the state would not be permitted to exert any authority over religious practice. Hence… Public schools! Unassociated with religion!
Your enthusiasm for collecting public taxes to fund various sects’ religious education is a 300-y.o. throwback, w/a historically proven predictable result. Just a few baby steps from there, & you’ve got the state dictating the religion.
No American state has ever endorsed a referendum to support religious schools with public funds. Never.
Sorry meant to say founding fathers came here to escape SEVENTEENTH C (17thC) culture
@Bethree5
Q According to your cites it’s already a done deal, yet none of the court decisions you cite make it OK for pooled local taxes to support local K-12 religious education END Q
You are wrong. The Zelman decision in 2002, permits exactly that. The case originated in Ohio, and students in Cleveland (and other places) are attending religiously-operated schools, and using public tax dollars, in the form of vouchers, to pay the tuition at these schools.
Why do you think that students are not attending religiously-operated schools, and using vouchers for tuition?
Tiny numbers of students use vouchers, even when they are eligible for them. Their families choose PUBLIC schools with qualified teachers and freedom from indoctrination.
@Zorba
Q I do not want my tax dollars going to support any religious school, no matter the sect. Parents should certainly be free to send their children to such schools, but that does not mean that I want to subsidize their religious beliefs. END Q
Your tax dollars are subsidizing religiously-operated schools all over this land. From Notre Dame (Indiana) to Georgetown (WashDC) to Brigham Young (Utah), students attend these sectarian institutions, on BEOG(Pell) Grants, and other forms of public financial aid.
Students attend K-12 schools with voucher aid, (in some states). The funds are from the public purse, and these funds are disbursed to pay the tuition at sectarian institutions.
Have you protested to your congressperson/senators about federal aid going to students enrolled at religiously-operated colleges and schools?
Charles,
You live in Virginia. Why aren’t you as angry about Charlottesville as you are obsessed with funding madrassas and fundamentalist schools?
Diane, he’s like a one-note wonder.
And no matter how many times it’s been pointed out to him that colleges are different than k-12 schools because you aren’t required to go to college, whereas you are required to go to school (or be appropriately home-schooled) at least until you are 16, in most states, he keeps beating that drum, too.
Plus, there are free public schools everywhere. I don’t see a whole lot of free colleges around.
Q You live in Virginia. Why aren’t you as angry about Charlottesville as you are obsessed with funding madrassas and fundamentalist schools? END Q
I can multi-task. I am disgusted and revolted about the events in Charlottesville over the w/e. I am especially saddened that two brave state troopers gave their lives in the helicopter accident.
I have no obsessions. I simply support school choice, and parental empowerment. Government does not always know best.
As a person who has lived in a socialist country, and an Islamic Kingdom, I am naturally fearful of government.
If our nation is truly supportive of religious freedom, we must support freedom for all religions, including religions we do not understand, including Islam.
“Government is like fire, a dangerous servant, and a terrible master” – George Washington.
The same goes for government institutions.
Q And no matter how many times it’s been pointed out to him that colleges are different than k-12 schools because you aren’t required to go to college, whereas you are required to go to school (or be appropriately home-schooled) at least until you are 16, in most states, he keeps beating that drum, too.
Plus, there are free public schools everywhere. I don’t see a whole lot of free colleges around. END Q
True, no one is required to go to college, but many states are required to provide financial support to colleges, and trade/vocational schools. The public puts up the cash to run post-secondary schools in many states.
Education is education, and spending is spending. What “magic: happens when a person leaves high school?
There are no free public schools. There are only public schools financed by the public.
Charles is dead wrong and Ravitch is spot-on. Zelman wrongly reversed Everson (1947), Lemon (1971), and several other rulings after Lemon. Anyone who knows anything about church-run private schools (and I am an honors grad of Indiana’s leading Catholic HS) know that they specialize in sectarian indoctrination. Catholics, Jews and Baptists do not send their kids to Lutheran schools. Lutherans and Jews and Methodists do not send their kids to Catholic schools. Etc, etc. Further, a voucher will be useless to most really poor families. Please, Charles, get with it. And BTW, in the 28 state referenda on vouchers and similar devices for tax funding of private schools, US voters defeated the proposals by 2 to 1, including 3 times in DeVos’s Michigan. — Edd Doerr
You are incorrect in some of your assertions. Zelman was solid constitutional law. True, several precedents were overturned, but the court was on solid constitutional ground, notwithstanding.
Of course, sectarian schools teach their theology and doctrine. You will not be studying the Holy Koran, in a Baptist school, unless it is in a comparative religion class. Nevertheless, parents often enroll their children in schools which are run by a religious enterprise, which is not their own. In the USA, estimates run as high as 20% of the students enrolled in Catholic-run K-12 schools to be non-Catholics.
see
http://catholicherald.com/News/Local_News/Why_non-Catholics_select_Catholic_schools/
and
https://cardinalnewmansociety.org/one-five-catholic-school-students-non-catholic/
When school choice programs are expanded, you can expect more non-Catholic parents to enroll their kids in quality Catholic schools.
If you think that a voucher will be useless to a poor family, you are mistaken. See this article from the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-school-choice-charter-schools-poor-students-20170103-story.html
Who says that all voucher recipients must receive a voucher of equal value? Vouchers can be set up on a “sliding scale”, and lower-income families can receive a voucher of a higher value, to enable them to select a school of quality. Higher income people would receive a voucher of less value, and wealthy people, who can already afford private school, would not receive a voucher. It is ridiculous to tax families from Watts, to pay for the education of kids from Beverly Hills.
And it is true, that referenda on vouchers have faced tough opposition. Not all voucher proposals have passed (in the legislative process). The recent expansion of the Arizona ESA program is on hold, due to a petition campaign to put it on the ballot.
To be fair, no state which has ever had a voucher/choice program has ever repealed the program. And every state which has brought a choice program in, has expanded it.
No public vote has ever expanded a voucher program. In Indiana, which has the nation’s largest voucher program, 3% enrolled, and the program has produced negative results. Want your child to fail? Take a voucher!
In Louisiana, only about 2% of eligible students took a voucher for a failing program.
As an advocate of public school choice and an opponent of public funds going to private & parochial schools (except for 2nd chance, non-sectarian schools), I’ve been interested in this conversation.
My understanding (from interviews through the state in the early 1980’s) is that Vermont has had a program for more than 100 years that gave local school boards the power to either operate one or more local schools OR
* allow families in towns that do not have elementary and/or secondary schools to use public funds to enroll in other public or private non-sectarian schools. Two examples of such schools are St. Johnsbury Academy and Burke Mountain Academy.
* at some point, allow families to use public funds to enroll in sectarian schools. However, my understanding is that Vermont authorities some years ago told families they could not use public funds to pay tuition at sectarian schools. The Heritage Foundation says that a 1961 Vermont law prohibited public funds from going to sectarian k-12 schools. I’ve been unable to verify that this change was made in 1969
http://www.heritage.org/node/18317/print-display
Here’s a link to the Vermont Independent School Association website that discusses these options:
http://www.vtindependentschools.org/
Here’s a link to a 1999 Vermont court case on this issue which concluded it was not constitutional for public funds to pay for tuition at a religious school
http://law.justia.com/cases/vermont/supreme-court/1999/97-275op.html
True, no referendum has ever expanded or increased an existing school choice/voucher program. The possible referendum which may be coming up in Arizona, will be closely watched. I predict, that a great deal of money both pro and con, will be injected into the campaign.
All states have a legislative process, and this is where the huge majority of the people’s legislative business occurs. It is slow and cumbersome, to have referenda on every topic that comes along.
I am delighted that 97% of the parents/children in Indiana are satisfied with their current public school. This speaks volumes on the quality of the education in the Hoosier state.
The 3% of families who have chosen to opt-out of the publicly-operated schools, have done so for a reason or reason. If their choice school is not delivering, they have the option of returning to a public school, or selecting an alternate non-public school.
ALL schools, public or non-public must have their educational “product” scrutinized, and be held accountable. Every reasonable person, regardless of how they feel about school choice, favors this.
Charles,
We now know that those in Indiana, Ohio, and Louisiana, as well as D.C., have chosen to send their children to schools where they will get an education of lower quality where they may actually be taught non-science and non-history.
Charles,
When will speak up about the Nazis and KKK IN Virginia?
Charles seems to be unaware of or indifferent to the fact that the largest single beneficiary of voucher tax aid in North Carolina is the Greensboro Islamic Academic. Is Charles OK with that?
Yes, Ed, Charles loves Islamic schools. He thinks every religion should have public money to teach whatever they choose.
Charles: Was Zelman right, or was Lemon v Kurtzman and its progeny right? Of all the SCOTUS rulings on this issue, Zelman stands out as out of line, thanks to guys like Scalia and Thomas. One thing that Charles ignores is that since the SCOTUS ended Protestant hegemony in many east coast states in 1962-63, Catholic school enrollment dropped from 5.5 million to today’s 1.8 million, for reasons unrelated to economics. Charles just seems to like the idea of fragmenting our student bodies by religion, ideology, class, ethnicity, etc.
Virginia does not have a monopoly on racism nor on extremists. As I stated, I am saddened and revolted about the recent events. In the 1920’s the state with the largest KKK membership was Indiana. I was in an inter-racial marriage from 1977 to 1993. I have a unique perspective on racism, that most people do not share.
Do you condemn Trump’s remarks yesterday assigning equal blame to Nazis and anti-Nazis.
If my condemnation is worth anything, you may consider this to be my condemnation. There is no equivalency between Nazis and anti-Nazis.
I condemn the remarks.
Q We now know that those in Indiana, Ohio, and Louisiana, as well as D.C., have chosen to send their children to schools where they will get an education of lower quality where they may actually be taught non-science and non-history. END Q
Non-public schools teach all sorts of things, since (generally) they are free from government directives. If they wish to teach religious topics, like creationism, they are free to do so.
But I dissent that all education at non-public schools is “lower quality”. Non-public schools are on the “bell curve”, some are terrific, some are good, some are terrible. No dispute at all.
see this article:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448988/louisiana-indiana-voucher-studies-students-catch-after-few-years?target=topic&tid=2473
You will agree, that students who have been pulled out of public schools, are often behind in their education. If the school was great, the parents would not pull the kids out.
Charles,
A nation can’t improve if its children are taught that the Bible is science and taught to hate others.
I agree. I am an engineer, and a scientist by profession. I do not believe that the Holy Bible, or the Holy Koran, or the sayings of Buddha, or the Upanishads, should be taught as science.
I do not believe that children should be taught to hate others.
What of it?
What Charles overlooks is that some parents was their kids indoctrinated and that most Americans do NOT want to be compelled by government to support that indoctrination and that fragmemnting of student bodies by religion. As for National Review . . . LOL.
Oops, “was” in my first line should have been “want.”
Some parents want their children to attend a faith-based school. They want their children to learn the theology and doctrines of their faith. This is a good thing, and beneficial to the children and to society.
Whether most Americans want or do not want to be compelled by government to support that indoctrination, is a matter of debate.
I can support a faith-based drug rehabilitation program. If a person can get help with their drug addiction, in a program run by a faith-based organization, I have no problem with my tax dollars supporting that program.
Q Charles seems to be unaware of or indifferent to the fact that the largest single beneficiary of voucher tax aid in North Carolina is the Greensboro Islamic Academic. Is Charles OK with that? END Q
@Edd: I am aware of this fact. (I could not find any recent articles, later than 2015). The beneficiaries of this program are the parents/children who are utilizing their free choice to attend this school. I am 1000% “OK” with this fact. You should know by now, that I support religious freedom (for all religions). And I support school choice.
Q Yes, Ed, Charles loves Islamic schools. He thinks every religion should have public money to teach whatever they choose. END Q
I support quality education, regardless of the source. There is an excellent Madras here in Fairfax county, VA. You are not exactly on point with my thinking. I believe that parents (of all income levels) should have choices in the education for their children. Wealthy parents can send their kids to fancy prep schools. Other parents can select a neighborhood with quality schools, reflective of their tax base. Lower-income parents are stuck in the publicly-run school in their neighborhood.
If parents can obtain quality education for their children in a school run by a religious enterprise, then I am all for it. Many public school administrators are upset about having their curriculum dictated by faceless Washington bureaucrats. Most teachers are upset about the endless testing, which takes away from class time. I have never seen a teacher nor an administrator complain that there was too little testing.
Non-public schools should have the freedom to set their own curriculum. And if they choose to include religious topics, which are at variance with science, then fine.
Do not be so quick to condemn Islamic education. For hundreds of years, the Islamic world dominated all education and learning and science. When the Christian knights captured the library at the University of Toledo (Spain) in 1085, there were twice as many books in that one library, than in all of Christian Europe. see
http://www.spainthenandnow.com/spanish-history/toledo-historical-overview/default_16.aspx
The bottom line is that Charles sees nothing wrong with government, state or federal, compelling taxpayers to support religious indoctrination and segregation through vouchers, tax credits or ESAs. He needs to read Madison’s 1785 Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which is the document behind our First Amendment. Charles seems to be a fan of Trump, DeVos, Pence and Milton Friedman. — Edd Doerr
I dissent. I am for parents having more direct control over their education spending. If parents are able to obtain quality education in an enterprise run by a religious or other NGO, then fine.
People can obtain food from a food pantry run by a religion/NGO, with government subsidy. People can obtain drug treatment, from a drug treatment facility, run by a religion/NGO, etc. No constitutional objection to a homeless shelter run by a church, and getting government funds.
There is a definite line between providing subsidies to a religious organization to provide secular services to the community, and establishing a religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it so, and that is the end of it.
I have read the document you cite. It is interesting, but not on point.
I am not a fan of the Pres nor of Sec DeVos, the V-Pres is pretty much a “cipher”, which is the Arabic word for “zero”.
I have read Dr. Friedman’s books, and seen his videos. I find him to be a genius, and I am in sympathy with many of his views. He earned the Nobel prize, that should speak for itself.
Charles,
You are wrong again.
Pence is not a zero. He is an aggressive evangelical, who picked most of the Cabinet members, the worst ones, like DeVos, Tom Price, Scott Pruitt, all of whom were unknown to Trump.
Getting food from a food pantry or drug treatment from a religious facility is not the same as learning hatred from a religious school that indoctrinates.
Q Tiny numbers of students use vouchers, even when they are eligible for them. Their families choose PUBLIC schools with qualified teachers and freedom from indoctrination. END Q
I think this is terrific. Parents are choosing to send their children to the (public) school of their choice. This speaks volumes for the public schools (that parents use by choice).
Public school advocates, should take this news favorably as well. I believe that they have nothing to fear from school choice.
Especially since school Choice consistently fails to produce good education.
Why do you continue to say this? When a wealthy parent sends his child to a high-end prep school like Choate or Phillips Exeter, the child will receive an excellent education. The wealthy parent chose this prep school.
The wealthy parent pays for class sizes of 12.
I am all for smaller class sizes, and quality instruction. There are many topics which we agree on. Excellence in education is one of them.