A few days ago, I wrote a post about the determination of North Carolina’s Tea-Party dominated legislature to allow charters, including for-profit ones, to take over low-scoring schools, a proposal modeled on Tennessee’s Achievement School District. My post was a refutation of an editorial in the Charlotte Observer, which endorsed the idea of using the ASD as a model for North Carolina. My post was titled “North Carolina: Yes, Let’s Copy a Failed Experiment.” Pamela Grundy, a public school champion in North Carolina, also complained to the newspaper and proposed that NC should try reducing class sizes.
The author of the editorial, Peter St. Onge, is associate editor of the editorial pages. He didn’t like my post at all. He says that the Tennessee ASD has not failed; it hasn’t had enough time. This follows on a Vanderbilt report about the ASD that concluded the program had “little or no effect” on student achievement. (Here is the link to the report.) NPR summarized the finding of the Vanderbilt study thus:
While there were some changes year-to-year — up and down — there was no statistical improvement on the whole, certainly not enough to catapult these low-performing schools into some of the state’s best, which was the lofty goal.
St. Onge says the Vanderbilt study didn’t say the experiment failed, it just hasn’t succeeded yet. That is true. The Vanderbilt study did not propose closing down the ASD; it said reform takes years. But please recall that Chris Barbic, who led the ASD, said he could turn around the lowest-performing schools in five years and make them among the state’s highest-performing schools. Clearly that will not happen. Of course, a child attends an elementary school for only four-six years, so they can’t wait ten years. So if we take the original promise of the ASD, it will fail to reach its goal of turning low-performing schools into high-performing schools in five years.
One of the lead researchers in the Vanderbilt study, Professor Gary Henry, was in North Carolina this week, where he spoke to a public policy forum. The legislature happened to be holding hearings on the NC version of ASD, but Professor Henry was not invited to testify. Why didn’t the legislature want to hear from him? He told the forum that the model sponsored by the public schools, called the iZone, had significant improvements, but the ASD did not. He said the study was based on only three years of data, so cautioned not to jump to conclusions.
So, yes, Peter St. Onge is right. It is too soon to declare the ASD a failure. But it is certainly not a success. Usually, when you look to copy a model tried elsewhere, you copy a successful model. Why should the state of North Carolina copy a model that has thus far shown little to no significant effects and has not shown success? A track record like that of the ASD does not lend itself to being called “a model.” A model for what? For throwing millions into an experiment that alienates parents and communities and after three years has little to no effect on student achievement?
When Chris Barbic resigned as leader of the ASD, following a heart attack, he made a statement boasting about gains that included this interesting observation:
Let’s just be real: achieving results in neighborhood schools is harder than in a choice environment. I have seen this firsthand at YES Prep and now as the superintendent of the ASD. As a charter school founder, I did my fair share of chest pounding over great results. I’ve learned that getting these same results in a zoned neighborhood school environment is much harder.
This is a sage observation. A brand new charter school can choose its students. Even with a lottery, the families are applying and informed and motivated. That is very different from taking over a neighborhood school, where parents resent that their school was “taken over” by outsiders without their consent. Charter schools have been notoriously unsuccessful at taking over neighborhood schools. KIPP, for example, took over Cole Middle School in Denver, and abandoned it a few years later. KIPP claimed it couldn’t find “the right leader,” but the reality is what Barbic said. It is much harder to take over an existing school than to start a new charter.
The Charlotte Observer, or more accurately, Mr. St. Onge, scorns those he calls “public education advocates” as if all those in favor of the model in which the public is responsible for the education of all children are self-interested and impervious to evidence. I think it is fair to say that in the North Carolina climate, those who promote charters are self-interested and impervious to evidence. The charter operators are in many cases operating for-profit, which is certainly not the motive of public education advocates. Those who claim that the ASD is a worthy model for North Carolina, despite its lack of success, are impervious to evidence.
If you can’t call the ASD a failure, you surely can’t call it a success. As the subtitle of the editorial states, “Judging Should Be Based on What Works.” We agree. Children should not be subjected to experiments that do not have a track record of success. Do what works, based on evidence and experience. Reduce class sizes where there is concentrated poverty and segregation; recognize that poverty and segregation are root causes of poor school performance and act to address root causes; make sure there are school nurses and social workers; make sure there is a library; hire experienced teachers, with school aides. Add classes in the arts. Give poor children what all parents want for their children. If you want to see the research base, read my book “Reign of Error: The Hoax of the Privatization Movement and the Danger to America’s Public Schools.” Or closer to home, call Helen F. Ladd at Duke University and get her advice.

I know I’m preaching to the choir here but, YES! reduce class sizes! I pulled my daughter out of a “high performing” elementary school to go to a magnet. It was a first year magnet but even before they had a magnet program, the principal did everything she could to keep class size to a max of 20. The outcomes were pretty amazing: even with 85%+ of the school receiving free or reduced price lunch (F&R, as it’s called in this county) they had close to 80% passing on state testing. Now, obviously since I pulled my kid out of a high performing school to send her here, I feel that testing doesn’t accurately measure the quality of the education a child is receiving and is more closely correlated to the income of a school’s population. However, I do feel that if a school can buck that trend, and acheive high test scores despite the high poverty rates, they must be doing something well. I believe that something was the small class size. It’s not that hard to do, and it has an enormous impact on students’ learning. I will leave with one final remark on the purpose of public schools: the school’s purpose is to produce an educated populace. It is not to produce a profit. It is, by it’s nature, never going to be a money making proposition. Charter schools and the companies who try to do so are not interested in what should be the sole purpose of education because they are too interested in lining their own pockets to focus on what they are producing.
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You hit on the most important point that is also the most overlooked, CLASS SIZE. Some of the worst performing and poorest schools have some of the largest class sizes. We must reduce class sizes if we want to see improvement
Last January I wrote a piece outlining a process for reducing the class sizes based on the percentage of F&R.
https://davidrtayloreducation.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/the-scarlet-letter-again/
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Mr. Taylor, I love every word you wrote! You have a new follower. I am hopeful that at some point we will step back from this insanity that is “teacher accountability” and start addressing the actual issues. A teacher in a struggling school simply cannot be expected to be MORE effective by giving him or her MORE to do! These data points are children. In the poorest schools they are children who need so much more support than in the highest performing schools which takes more time from the teacher. Rewarding the high performing schools and punishing the poor schools is as regressive as it can get. How can we get this message through to the people who are making the decisions in our country, states and counties?
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Thank you NCMom
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Your post highlights the terrible truth about education today. Our public schools have been drained of resources far too long. While charter schools have not solved the real problems, they have contributed to starving public schools of the resources they need to do a good job. In urban areas the neglect has been institutionalized due to the unfair way in which schools are funded. Our government has failed to be good stewards of public schools. In fact, their partiality to charters and their test and punishment policies in the name of “accountability” have contributed to the chaos and destabilization in our schools today. Rather than fund school equitably and lead efforts to integrate schools, the government has chosen to ignore public schools. Instead, they are promoting toxic partnerships with corporations, and they are throwing money at privateers with no experience in education. In fact, they are often fleecing the taxpayers and producing no scalable improvements. The government calls it “innovation.” Our students are being used as guinea pigs to allow corporations to profit from “hit or miss” initiatives. I respect the charge we have to educate our future voters too much to consider this attitude anything but irresponsible and an abrogation of the public trust. Our students are our future. We need to provide them with stability and sound policy based on evidence and truth.
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And what is even more aggravating is that they refuse to even answer critics who see them starving public schools. How can they not address the decay of infrastructure, the lack of resources and the cutback in services?
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“Not enough time”. Hilarious. Whatever happened to “the fierce urgency of now”?
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Dienne: what you said!
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I appreciate Ms. Ravitch linking to my column. Those who read it will notice a couple of things: 1) Ms. Ravitch is wrong when she says I didn’t like her post at all. Reducing class size is something North Carolina should try, and my column says so. 2) I didn’t and wouldn’t “scorn” public education advocates. I do question advocates – whether they support public schools or charters – who reflexively denounce an idea as “failed” before it has a chance to succeed.
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Thanks for replying, Peter. Since the egos latte has been willing to spend nearly $400 million on charters whir expanding the voucher program, I would be pleasantly surprised if it decided to reduce class sizes or to give higher salaries to teachers, who have been fleeing NC to other nearby states because of low wages.
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The ASD may not have had time to “fail”, but it certainly hasn’t succeeded. How can you justify advocating North Carolina to jump in and try it when there’s no evidence of success? “Achievement” districts have demonstrable harms, most notably the loss of democratic control. It is (or, at least, should be) incumbent upon supporters of such districts to demonstrate benefits that outweigh such harms before proceeding, don’t you agree?
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Diane,
Your statement “reduce class sizes or to give higher salaries to teachers” intrigued me. Why does it have to be either or why not both.
When educators are asking for more money it is to accomplish both goals lower class sizes and better living wages.
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David, I didn’t mean “either-or.” I was suggesting alternatives that the NC legislature has ignored
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But how long of a chance does it need? By this logic, we could never call any program a failure because it could eventually show positive results. That is silly.
By this reasoning we should keep going and even expand for-profit, online charter schools. They haven’t worked well at all anywhere, but, hey, the might work 30 years from now. Of course, North Carolina is following other states down this rabbit hole by allowing for-profit, online charter schools. Prediction: this cause educational harm to many children in North Carolina.
But when educating children, if positive results do not come about soon, within several years, then the program must be halted because it is causing harm to real children, not lab rats.
Of course, if there was actual evidence that this program is moving in the right direction, then that might justify keeping the program around, but, from what I have read, such evidence is scant for this program.
One of the huge problems with education reform is that reformers keep thinking that they have the silver bullet, and when they put it into place it doesn’t work. They then say, well, we have to try something else as if experimenting on children has no cost. Meanwhile children are not getting the education that they deserve.
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The point is that so far charters are no different than public schools. Why give away a public commodity to an unproven entity. If the charter is not educating any better out the door, there is no reason for its existence. Maybe your bias against public school teachers and public endeavors blinds you to what happens in both settings.
Same ol’same ol’ as far as I have seen.
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I would be pleasantly surprised, too. It’s telling (but unfortunately not surprising) that the N.C. superintendent’s call this week for a 10 percent teacher pay raise was met with much squirming from the N.C. House leader. Look for an editorial on that this weekend.
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I think the editorial piece ignores the opportunity cost. It simply isn’t true that states can invest in everything equally, at the same time. Budgets set priorities. If they are investing in an ASD then they are NOT investing what they could be in the public schools that showed more success than those in the ASD.
“Plus/and” is on some level a fantasy. Choices have to be made, and pretending they don’t have to be made is nonsense. In fact, choices WILL be made. Those can be made openly and transparently or by default, but priorities matter.
Charter promoters ignore this, but it’s reality.
If they want to promote charters they should have the integrity to admit this means they are NOT investing what they could have in something else. That is true.
They want experiments without downside risk, and those don’t exist.
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Chiara is absolutely right. Investing in something means not investing in something else. But in this case, what you are investing in is possibilities, and if we are really trying to find what works and what doesn’t, we are going to end up investing in some things that don’t work.
That’s the reality with public schools now – even taking charters out of the picture. We’ve invested in a lot of initiatives over the years that we HOPE will work, because what we’ve done historically now doesn’t work for a lot of schools. In Charlotte, those initiatives have taken on several forms – K-8 schools, a public-private partnership to lift a community of struggling schools. A lot of those initiatives haven’t worked as we’d hoped. With others, the jury is still out. Does that mean we shouldn’t have tried? I don’t believe that. I think we need to keep trying new things and evaluating them while investing as much as we can in the public schools foundation that we have.
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Peter, it is good to try new things. Fortunately NC can learn from the experience of other districts like ASD in Tennesseeor the EAA in Michigan or the Michigan districtshandedovrr to charter organizations. It is not necessary to reinvent the wheel. The proposal under consideration in NC is not new, not innovative. You may say it hasn’t totally failed yet, but there is no evidence that it is worthy of copying.
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The problem, Mr. St. Onge, is that the rephormers keep investing in the same old tired stale strategies that haven’t ever worked yet. For instance, we’ve known for quite a while now that strict “discipline” no excuses drill-and-kill schools don’t really work, except maybe to produce temporary test score spikes that usually fade away after a year or two (and are often as not a result of pushing out poor test-takers). Even these types of schools themselves are quietly realizing they don’t work and quietly walking back some of the worst of their policies (KIPP, for instance, has quietly shortened its school day and is talking a kinder and gentler talk). Yet we keep building more slight variations on this same theme and wondering why it’s not working. Definition of insanity, anyone?
On the other hand, we do know what is needed, yet we spend very little on such needs. Adequate food, safe housing, medical and dental treatment, trauma prevention and healing, unleaded water fer Pete’s sake. But overcoming poverty is difficult and messy. It’s just sexier to roll out a bunch of flashy edtech stuff and force it on kids with no excuses “discipline.
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There is plenty of research on what works in education. None of it mentions that charters are the saving grace of public schools. Our country is supposed to support democratic public education. We are supposed to integrate schools. In fact, integration results in positive learning growth for poor minority students. The DOJ has no interest in making integration work, and the way we fund schools short changes urban schools. These inequities were not created by teachers and their unions. They were created by policymakers, but teachers have been scapegoated assigning blame to them alone for these social problems While the initial intent of charters may have been noble, those noble intentions have been crushed by vulture capitalists that seek profit, tax credits and loopholes at any cost. http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/findwhatworks.aspxhttp://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/findwhatworks.aspx
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Chiara: well put.
Here’s how it plays out online: some pro-rheephorm advocates (in current rebranding mode called “platform-agnostics”) raise subtle points and attempt to engage in something approaching a genuine dialogue about public education and a “better education for all.”
Here’s how it play out on the ground: charters and privatization and such all the time everywhere in the interest of $tudent $ucce$$, pushed by (and mandated where possible by) political enablers and various enforcers of the heavyweights of self-styled “education reform.” To paraphrase the NJ Comm. of ED: whatever they’re doing, they need to double down.
I want to make this clear: I do not disparage anyone trying to engage, sincerely, in conversation about education. However I—and I think I speak for many that comment on this blog—am interested in the reality of what happens, not the spin and the hype and self-serving show-and-tell of anybody. *Hint: “anybody” means just that.*
To what do I refer? New Orleans has had way more than three years to demonstrate the miracles of rheephorm. Hasn’t happened—as evidenced just by Steve Barr’s innovative disruption of John McDonogh HS. Darnell Earley goes from the dreadful incompetence of the FLINT, MI water decision to heading up Detroit PS. Eva Moskowitz just won’t put up with five-year-olds that toss around desks as she expands her charter empire in NYC. And who can forget the irony of the rheephorm turnaround in Adelanto, CA?
The examples could be multiplied many times. While there is seemingly great diversity, the main thrust in practice of corporate education reform is to rely on worst pedagogical and business procedures in order to answer to the bottom line aka ROI, regardless if it’s explicit or masked, and to serve the interests of a few adults at the expense of everyone else.
As I see it, one of the worst features of the purveyors of corporate education reform is latching on to the worst practices of public schools and scaling them up to colossal failure.
John Deasy. MISIS and iPads. LAUSD. Could there be a better example (at this point) of how rheephorm is simply another way of spelling “failure”?
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Why invest in a unsuccessful model when an example of successful public schools (iZone) is right there?
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Peter St. Onge says that the Tennessee ASD has not failed—that it hasn’t had enough time (three years).
Peter, how many years do you want to continue this experiment on our children?
For instance, 10 years after Katrina, the New Orleans’ Recovery School District (*RSD) is arguably a total failure.
“The school- and district-level data presented in this post unequivocally demonstrates that the state-run RSD is hardly a miracle. It should be an embarrassment to any reformer insisting otherwise. And it should come as no wonder why RSD doesn’t even mention school letter grades on its website.
“The history of the state-run RSD in New Orleans is one of opportunism and deceit, of information twisting and concealing, in order to promote a slick, corporate-benefitting, financially-motivated agenda. It is certainly not “for the children.”
“It is very easy for corporate reform to stand in front of the media and proclaim a New Orleans miracle. Bobby Jindal is doing it. So are John White, Wendy Kopp, Leslie Jacobs, and a host of others. No matter how oft-repeated the term “New Orleans miracle” has become, it is a lie.”
In addition, for almost two decades, corporate charter schools have been around and Stanford studies have pointed out repeatably that most of them are worse or no better than the public schools they are replacing—even after corporate, autocratic, for profit—no matter how you look at it—opaque and often fraudulent, charter schools manufacture success by cherry picking students, treating children as young as 5 as if they are prisoners in a Soviet Gulag and selecting only the data that makes them look good while refusing to be transparent about spending, management methods, most corporate Charters are still failing at being better than community based, democratic, transparent, non-profit public schools.
Study: Majority of U.S. charter schools perform equal or worse than traditional schools
“SALT LAKE CITY — A new study of 26 states, including Utah, suggests that charter schools have made modest gains in student performance but have not yet surpassed their traditional school counterparts en masse.
“In the study, released Tuesday by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, researchers found that charter schools had improved since a similar study in 2009, but noted that those gains were partly due to the closure of underperforming charter schools.”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865582169/Study-Majority-of-US-charter-schools-perform-equal-or-worse-than-traditional-schools.html?pg=all
Who owns you, Peter St. Onge? If you reply no one owns you, then that makes either a liar or a fool.
How much time do you want, Peter, to prove that the corporate driven public education reform movement, funded by autocratic billionaire oligarchs, who are doing all they can to bypass and subvert the democratic process and the media, is a failure—20, 30, 40, 50, or a 100 years?
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It occurs to me that “reformers” as well as realists (community school supporters) are being led about by the nose to promote a much larger agenda: the nature of this country. And it is a movement that has been planned for much longer than public vs charter vs vouchers. As I watch China’s growth from the “eat, children in China are starving” to China as a source for tchotchke manufacturing, it seems the creators have realized that Democracy is not essential to capitalism and can get in one’s way of becoming a monopoly.
Spending our time on the minutiae of public schools distracts us from the revolution. I used to point out to my most-left wing friends that fascism was the more likely outcome of a revolution in America. I still believe this. (But then I was raised in Indiana.) Even the Libertarians will be left out in the cold.
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Interesting thought about China. The Chinese Communist Party operates and managed China similar to how a corporation with a board of directors works. The CCP has its central Committee/board of directors. The CCP has its National Congress with more than 2,000 elected members who are elected within the party structure. The CCP has more than 80 million voting members and they elect the representatives that belong to the National Congress. The National Congress elects the next level of leadership above it and so on until you reach the Politburo Standing Committee—that operates similar to a board of directors. They are even linked to every member of the committee with a hot line. The only difference between the CCP and a corporation is the leaders in the Party are only allowed to serve two five year terms in any single position and must retire at age 64 or 65. They may serve in different positions but even the president of China is limited to two five year terms and then he must strep down so the National Congress can elect the next president who must be vetted by the Central Committee or he will not be allowed to run for office. The President of China is not always the CEO of the CCP. The chairman of the CCP is often someone too old to hold a political office but holds a lot of power in the party.
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