Received in my email:
From: Justin Ashley <justinf.ashley@cms.k12.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:41:44 -0400
To: “Thom.Tillis@ncleg.net” <Thom.Tillis@ncleg.net>
Subject: A message to the NC General Assembly: Reopen the door (please)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:41:44 -0400
To: “Thom.Tillis@ncleg.net” <Thom.Tillis@ncleg.net>
Subject: A message to the NC General Assembly: Reopen the door (please)
Mr. Tillis,
I wanted to first thank you for your service to our state. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to make so many decisions that impact so many people.
I’m sure that being a politician can be a lot like playing the part of Batman: people are always questioning whether you are a hero or a villain when all you really want is to protect Gotham City. I appreciate the sacrifices you have made for the Tar Heel state.
Secondly, I would like to tell you my story:
Choosing a career path is frightening, especially when you’re 17. I weighed my options between Burger King manager and the armed forces. My options were few and far between, as I was residing in a low-income, single parent home at the time.
My career perspective widened when my school counselor informed me of a possible scholarship opportunity. We decided to give it a shot. I wrote an essay, filled out some paperwork, and participated in a scholarship interview at UNC Charlotte.
A few weeks later, I ripped the letter open from my mailbox:
“Congratulations. You have been awarded a full scholarship to a North Carolina University.”
I will never forget reading those words with water-filled eyes. For the first time in my life, I felt fully empowered to overcome mediocrity.
I opened that letter ten years ago. In that defining moment, I accepted the full scholarship as a North Carolina Teaching Fellow and graduated from UNC Charlotte in 2007.
Currently, I teach 4th grade in Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. I have been a father to boys and girls at school who don’t have them at home. I have helped raise test scores and created a fun learning environment for kids. I love my job.
In February, I was even fortunate enough to walk across a stage in Greensboro and accept the award for the North Carolina Social Studies Teacher of the Year.
And even though my salary would be higher as a Burger King manager, I’m grateful for the door that was opened for me, for the founders of the scholarship program, for the General Assembly (years ago) that allocated funding for my scholarship, and for the taxpayers who provided the investment in the first place. I’ve been able to change lives because these people changed mine. And I’m just one of the thousands of stories, stories that represent better teaching and better learning because of of our great state’s dedication to our public education system.
A few weeks ago, our state legislators passed a budget that eradicated the North Carolina Teaching Fellows Scholarship. They also terminated teacher tenure and additional pay for teachers with master degrees, along with a host of other public education cutbacks that total approximately 500 million dollars.
With these sweeping changes, I can’t help but wonder:
How many state teacher of the years did our current General Assembly just eliminate from the classroom?
How many doors were just shut in the face of so many talented teacher candidates?
My heartfelt message to our current General Assembly and Governor:
As you create bills and budgets involving education, please don’t marinate on the massive numbers of educators and students. Instead, visualize your favorite teacher as a child, the one who spoke words of vision and hope into you. The one who invested her time, energy, and love into your life so that you could become the leader you have grown to be. Do you see her? Now, use your resources to enable teachers just like her to do for others what she did for you.
Great teaching is the golden ticket for our schools. Teachers are the solution. Help us help our kids. Hold on to great teachers right now before it’s too late. Create opportunities and incentives that attract new teachers for the future. You have the keys to the door.
And closed doors can quickly be reopened…
Diane Ravitch's blog 
“And even though my salary would be higher as a Burger King manager….”
Yikes!
I am glad he wrote that and I hope more will too.
Thank you Mr. Ashley for your dedication to the students of North Carolina.
The legislature in NC want to destroy public education.
PERIOD.
Nice but maddening story. North Carolina’s salaries for teachers appear to be very low. A certified teacher with 6 years of experience and a Bachelor’s degree makes $34,970. A Burger King Manager makes $38,000. I am not sure of the benefits
See:
Click to access 2013-14schedules.pdf
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Burger+King+Restaurant+General+Manager&l1=Charlotte%2C+North+Carolina
I have a question for Diane related to this:
you mentioned in a post a few days ago about NC that the legislature want to bring teachers “to their knees.”
What do you mean by that? And what do you think is motivating it, aside from ALEC (or in addition to ALEC)? Anyone else feel free to answer too.
The republicans in NC are radical tea party faring people. They HATE public services and they want all things privatized. See what’s happening to the airport in Charlotte where the politicians are trying to expel public interests, and one has to wonder if in the future a new airport authority, rather than serving the needs of the citizens in Charlotte, would attempt to find ways to make a profit.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/02/06/3835670/push-for-airport-authority-worries.html
These politicians didn’t campaign with this message – in fact, McCrory campaigned more as a moderate, probably because he want to stay middle of the road for the next election. In fact, his initial budget was more middle of the road, at least compared to Tillis and Berger.
Thom Tillis is counting on a strong vote from the ultra conservatives while running against Kay Hagan. By passing this budget, he has guaranteed their continuing support.
Moreover, the local house and senate republicans have tea party tattooed on their foreheads. They’re literally insane.
ME:
Calling folks insane is not going to convince anybody. Can you think of an argument for killing the death tax? Are you sure it is a net loss in terms of $$s. Anybody with a $5 million plus estate will find a way around estate taxes.
In North Carolina, Estate and Gift taxes have not been a significant source of revenue since 2008.
Death and Gift Taxes
2008 176,254,000
2009 116,624,000
2010 83,980,000
2011 26,788,000
2012 58,323,000
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/state-tax-revenue-data.html
As for issues of teacher tenure here are the basic numbers derived from
Click to access 2011-12turnoverreport.pdf
In 2011-12, NC had 97,184 teachers
147 resigned in lieu of dismissal
17 were dismissed
This is an extraordinarily low number —- 0.17% It is hard to believe that an effective evaluation process is in place. It is even more remarkable given that over 1900 experienced teachers were hired from outside of North Carolina last year. No organization that I am aware of has the kind of success rate with new hires that these numbers indicate. It certainly is a set of numbers that deserves further explanation.
Bernie,
“This is an extraordinarily low number —- 0.17% It is hard to believe that an effective evaluation process is in place. It is even more remarkable given that over 1900 experienced teachers were hired from outside of North Carolina last year. No organization that I am aware of has the kind of success rate with new hires that these numbers indicate. It certainly is a set of numbers that deserves further explanation.”
I’m not sure why you think that because the rate of turnover is so low that there must assuredly be something wrong with the evaluation system. The fact is that the whole process of becoming a teacher/teacher undergrad education (not TFA way) eliminates some of the potential bad teachers. Then most of the bad teachers are weeded out in the first couple of years of their teaching experiences. Add to those facts that hiring experienced teachers usually means they already have been “vetted” then I would certainly not expect to see a much higher turnover rate. No business other than those that require a masters degree or higher have that sort of vetting system in place. Public education doesn’t have unless the edudeformers/TFAers have their way. Then you will see the kind of turnover that you see in the business realm.
Bernie, Duane, and others.
On the subject of teacher evaluation. Bernie seems to think that if very few teachers leave, the teacher evaluation system doesn’t work. In Finland, aside from retirements at career’s end, the teacher-exit rate is nearly zero.
Excellent example!
Diane:
If you gave me the other elements of the Finnish teacher selection, preparation and probationary process then I could probably live with 1% forced dismissal rate. Since we decidedly and demonstrably do not have them, then we have to expect more forced dismissal later on.
I looked without success for data on teacher dismissals in Finland. It does happen, of course, and there appears to have been a recent major issue in Helsinki. Attrition appears to be a separate issue. In Finland the issue appears to be growing.
Duane:
You are kidding right. The number of forced dismissal in 2011-12 in North Carolina is 164 out of nearly 90,000 experienced teachers. In the real world a selection success rate of 90% even where there are rigorous and verifiable performance measures in place is literally unheard of. Given that the system hires over 1900 from outside of the school district, I would expect at least 190 bad hires and, therefore, dismissals from simply that category alone.
I am not one to argue from authority but if you are going to claim that you need to be a teacher to comment on teaching methods and curriculum then you should listen more carefully to somebody who has spent 30 years studying, designing, implementing and analyzing selection and performance evaluation systems.
Your claims to the rigors of the probationary system are interesting. Certainly the roughly 10% dismissal rate at the end of the probationary period in North Carolina suggests some judgment is being applied. I would be very interested in looking at the recommended process and how it has in fact been implemented.
Even if the probationary process is as rigorous and vigorous as you claim, the 0.2% applies to experienced teachers. Are you suggesting that less than 1% of classroom teachers choose to hang on to their pay checks despite becoming demotivated, become more interested in pursuing outside interests and jobs, getting overwhelmed/distracted by non-work issues, falling prey to drugs and alcohol, simply hanging around for retirement, etc. I am afraid it simply does not strike me as being realistic.
Here is a simple thought experiment. If you are a teacher, look around your staff room. If you have 25 teachers in your school are you sure that there is not one experienced teacher whose immediate departure would be a plus for students and other teachers? That one forced dismissal would equate to a 4% rate. If you only fired 1 of the 25 every 4 years that would still be 5 times North Carolinas current rate.
As for turnover, the turnover in NC is already 11% which would be shattering in other professional organizations. But this does not appear to be healthy turnover, i.e., shedding weak performers. As I said, if your system is set up so that the best leave and the weak stay your system is in a potential death spiral.
Bernie,
No, I’m not kidding.
As far as “who has spent 30 years studying, designing, implementing and analyzing selection and performance evaluation systems.”
And did any of those years spent include evaluations of the teaching and learning process and the teachers involved?
Duane:
In answer to your question, none. But that is hardly the point at issue. Do you still maintain that a forced dismissal rate for experienced teachers of less than 0.2% indicates that somebody is paying attention to teacher performance?
Yes,
To tell you the truth from my point of view, having to be subjected to these yearly teacher evaluations administered by administrators many years my younger and who have never learned a second language is insulting, hubristic and completely insane. How many docs, engineers, architects, nurses, lawyers, etc. . . have to jump through the idiotic hoops that are teacher evaluations to please some state mandated evaluation scheme that is built on false premises. None that I know of!
Oh, but a 30 year “evaluation specialist” can? Don’t think so! To those types I say begone!
Duane:
You are confusing two things: Implementation and Need. You may well be right and the wrong people are conducting your evaluation. You may also be correct that the criteria specified by the State do not make sense. You are also correct that I am not qualified to evaluate your performance. These are issues of the implementation of an appropriate evaluation system. So given that it appears that your system does annual performance reviews, what evaluation criteria would you want and who do you think is qualified to do the evaluation?
The second issue is one of the need for annual or biannual reviews. Are you saying that there is no need and that once a teacher has made it through the probationary period they essentially have a job for life? If you think that the 0.2% forced dismissal rate is fine and dandy then I conclude that you are actually saying you are entitled to a job for life. If so, you can hardly be surprised when many see this as unrealistic.
I also disagree with Justin. Teachers are not a wholesale solution. And to write that, he compounds the Waiting for Superman strawman argument.
Teachers are part of a solution…a solution that requires a country that is in economic disarray with record high wage inequality and record low social mobility. Our politicians are the solution. If our people would become informed, band together, and elect regular, working people that care about our citizens more than corporations, that would be THE solution.
Expecting teachers to save the world is a terrible economic plan for revitalization. It’s a terrible plan for education too. Students outcomes primarily depend on family characteristics, especially those involving the wealth of a family. If we could create middle class jobs, as we did in the 50’s, 60′, and into the 70’s, the middle class could flourish, and we could automatically expect better outcomes in schools given the fact that there are competent and capable school administrators and teachers. I believe we have the latter, for the most part.
“. . . as we did in the 50′s, 60′, and into the 70′s. . . ” You mean when we had the most progressive tax rates, eh!! When the wealthy paid a more fair share of the tax burden since they were benefitting the most from society.
Bingo Duane.
Look at that myth again to see what else was happening in the society. The pivot moment is JFK’s cutting of the tax rates. THAT brought prosperity. Progressive rates that high depress growth. If you think they would solve our current fiscal problems you are deeply delusional.
HU,
Count me “deeply delusional” then!
And that’s not a myth, it’s a fact.
The fact being the progressive taxes (and my being deeply delusional too-ha ha).
Excellent letter. As a former McDonald’s Mgr. who became a teacher 27 years ago I wonder lately if I made the right decision. Of course I did. The problem being most of the policy makers in Albany have never worked anywhere, so what perspective do they have? It’s a sad state of affairs. I’d like to see Arne Duncan’s and John King’s work history since they were 16 years old.
I have mixed feeling as I reside in NC, support the GOP…and are pleased with what is being done.
Despite the criticism of the cuts…there is a $2 billion deficit, thanks to the Fed loaning us the money to extend Unemployment two years back…and now said the money needs to be paid back. This is done in concert with the Fed saying states should again extend Unemployment…but this time IT will cover the cost, but NOT forgive the two billion we owe.
While the media focuses on teachers pay…I look at ALL public salaries. I don’t view a teacher income any different than any other public employee. All serve the public and to give an increase to one group and not all is wrong.
About tenure…WHY? What other public, or private employee has this arrangement? And should they? Wouldn’t it be better to ween out the mediocre teachers (and I am sure you all know a few) and replace them with superior ones. Is there something wrong with this.
The teaching profession has bigger problems than the author wrote about. And Common Core, as this Blog advises, could be the biggest.
If teachers do not stand up and challenge the US DOE to butt out of education and become what it should be, a 911 call to come to the aid of public education. the future of public education will continue on a downward slide…producing mediocre students by a system more interested in how many kids it can bus than how many students actually learn. ajbruno14 gmail.com
So let me get this straight – a cut to the top bracket, of 25% on state income taxes, is gong to help us pay off debt how?
And the canceling of the death tax for estates over 5.5 million is also going to help us pay off this debt HOW? The killing of the death tax will cost us many hundreds of millions of dollars.
And exactly how will cutting the corporate tax help us pay down debt – especially those corporations that use our strong colleges in the Duke/UNC area for research etc…?
And exactly how in the world will spending 60 million on school vouchers help us pay off this debt?
And how is spending millions to SAS and TFA, both of which hurt education, going to help us pay off this debt?
And you are ignorant on the topic of teacher tenure in NC. Teacher tenure in NC forces administrators to have a reason to fire a teacher…not just because they are black, a woman, old, or they have differing political ideas than the predominating ones.
Without tenure, it makes it even easier to excuse teachers…just because, without rhyme or reason. Teaching is already an undesirable profession because of low pay and harsh working conditions. Teacher tenure is about the only carrot that attracts people to spend 50K on a teaching degree because as long as they work hard they will be guaranteed a job regardless of the complexity of the profession.
Maybe you’ve never taught? I have for decades. I have hand hundreds, if not thousands of people, want me fired for the simplest of things ranging from not giving them a choice parking spot (while I was donating my time doing this sports duty), to giving little Johnny a well-deserved “F”.
Teacher tenure protects teachers from a very complicated job encircled in people that want you fired, pretty much every day. Until you have experienced this, you are ignorant.
You have not experienced this phenomenon.
And why worry ourselves with firing teachers? We lose close to 50% of 1st year teachers every five years in suburbia and close to 70% in urban areas. The last thing we need to do is worry about firing teachers – they fire themselves – they can’t hack the low wages, high expectations, and terrible working conditions.
“What other public, or private employee has this arrangement?”
When people gripe about tax cuts for the wealthy or corporate welfare or whatever, they are accused of “class envy”. How is your statement not an example of class envy? Why *shouldn’t* teachers have tenure/due process? Because you’re jealous because you don’t have it? Then get organized and fight for it! Frankly, everyone should have it. Why should anyone ever lose their livelihood for arbitrary reasons?
BTW, you do understand that tenure/due process doesn’t mean a guaranteed job for life, right? It doesn’t mean you can’t be fired. It just means that you have to be fired for a good reason, and that reason has to be proven through the due process procedure. Again, why *shouldn’t* everyone have this protection?
Dienne:
With a dismissal rate of 0.17% it does indeed look like teachers in North Carolina have jobs for as long as they want them regardless of their performance.
Your suggestion that statements opposed to tenure are class envy fails to consider that much opposition may well be based on the experience of those responsible for running organizations who know that (a) people vary enormously in their ability to perform; (b) performance of individuals can decline for reasons that are under the control of the individual; (c) even after feedback and performance improvement plans, performance does not improve. It is never easy to let people go, but sometimes it is essential for the sake of performance, equity and morale.
I do not know about others but I am looking for evidence that a vigorous and rigorous performance review process for teachers and principals is in place and is being executed. How can you argue against it?
Thanks ME and Dienne.
bernie1815: It would be ideal for all employees public and private to have a “vigorous and rigorous performance review process” – one that is impartial in regards to personalities, race, religion, gender, politics ad nauseam. Know one like that? Of course not, we’re people with human failings. Nothing is perfect and many things are a lot more complicated than they appear in the surface. The is no one size fits all rather it should be one size fits none.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
Arguing for perfection before anything is done is not a realistic counterargument.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
You are right, perfection in human endeavors does not exist. Now, how do we address the issue of improving the performance of teachers?
Bernie, define vigorous and rigorous, please.
tuppercooks:
Excellent question. Rather than try to design an assessment systemde novo, I would say from what I have read that the Montgomery County process is a good place to start. That should take care of the rigor – though I am sure some of the criteria could be improved upon.
I am not sure how rigorous that particular process still is – but I would argue for it to be conducted in the second half of the first semester for all experienced teachers. Principals would be held strictly accountable for ensuring the assessments are conducted. Principals would be required to identify the bottom decile of all experienced teachers. These would be reviewed the following semester. Those not demonstrating measurable improvement would be considered for dismissal as would anyone who falls back into the bottom decile in the next assessment year.
https://eboard.eboardsolutions.com/Meetings/Attachment.aspx?S=10399&AID=8999&MID=670
The link shows reasons for NC teacher turnover 2011-12. I don’t think the 0.17% tells the whole story. 1.25% resigned in lieu of dismissal (a common practice in private industry), 2.88% non-renewal (probationary contract ended).
concernedmom:
There are close to 100,000 teachers in NC. 1% would be 1000 teachers. I think you are off by a decimal place because you are reading the % of those who left for any reason. You have to use the total number of teachers in the system, i.e., 100,000 not 11,791.
My 0.17% combines both dismissals and those resigning prior to dismissal process.
The loss of probationary teachers is certainly higher. It should be based on the number of those finishing their probationary terms. I would estimate around 4000 though I could not find the precise number. Therefore approximately 10% of those in the last year of their probationary contract were let go.
If the number of dismissals were close to 3% I would say that a reasonably vigorous process was in place. Rigorous would depend on the quality of the assessment criteria, etc.
bernie1815: I wasn’t arguing for perfection. I was stating that it does not exist in the theater of human nature or existence. There are just an infinite number of variables and subjective assessments.
MCL:
My reply got out of order.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
You are right, perfection in human endeavors does not exist. Now, how do we address the issue of improving the performance of teachers?
Bernie,
Why do you think “we” need to improve the “performance” of teachers? What do you mean by we and by performance?
Diane:
We = those who see education as a key to building and maintaining a society that offers all the opportunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Performance – tricky. I recall in your last book on School Reform you eloquently described an inspirational English teacher. The short way of responding and, I do not mean to be flippant, is to have every teacher be like the one you described and to have every student be able to identify an inspirational teacher. That is clearly an aspirational goal. To get there is going to take time and a lot of effort. I certainly do not believe we stand a chance of getting there with a forced turnover rate of 0.17%. Nor do I think that improving teacher performance is the only thing that needs to be done.
Bernie, teacher quality cannot be measured by student test scores. The best measure is performance in the classroom over to
I me as judged by peers and experienced supervisors. Turnover is far too high now. Current policy is driving out many fine teachers. Churn is bad for schools. Many charters have teacher turnover of 50% annually. That is destabilizing. Please read my new book for more on this.
Diane:
I do not disagree with you as to the use of peers and supervisors – as is supposedly the case in Montgomery County. However, both in the case of Montgomery County and elsewhere, I see little evidence that it is being done. When the forced dismissal rate in all of North Carolina is 0.17% something is not working. The numbers appear to be similar across the US.
As for excessive churn – I agree. The overall 11% turnover in North Carolina is too high. If the good teachers leave and the weak ones stay, then the prospects are bleak for schools in NC.
Bernie,
High turnover of teachers is a very bad sign. Good schools have very low turnover.
Diane:
Well we agree on high turnover, how about the too low rate of forced dismissals? For me, both are signs of problems.
Bernie,
Thanks for your reply. When you mentioned 0.17% “dismissed” and I saw 0.16% dismissed on the report, I assumed you were referring to the % of turnover due to straight out dismissal and not those resigning before dismissal.
If 10% of those on probation are let go, maybe NC is pro-active and removes ineffective teachers before they are allowed in the classroom long-term. Why didn’t you include those numbers in your analysis? I know it only beings the % up to 0.517% not close to the 3% you want, but it seems like these numbers should be included.
I also think it is safe to say that some of the others that leave for various reasons are the under-performing teachers so the total % is probably higher than even 0.517%.
Do we know how many highly effective teachers are unemployed and want to work in public schools? Does NC have enough of a supply of these suitable replacements for the “bad” teachers be able to fire an additional 2.8% of their workforce? Maybe part of the issue (if one assumes the problem is all these bad teachers that aren’t being let go) is that for some reason NC is not a desirable place to teach.
I have a hard time believing there are so many lousy teachers, but maybe I am wrong. It seems like it would be very hard to have a standard review process in place even within a school.
concernedmom:
I am getting confused with this thread so I apologize if this response is redundant.
I worked with a lot of different organizations on selection, promotion and performance issues. Where ever you have people doing a similar type of job you find enormous variances in their performance. You find this in insurance underwriters, computer programmers, r&d scientists, sales people, bank tellers, Navy Officers, accountants, Bank Managers, etc. Most organizations know that one of the key ways they can improve is to continuously improve the quality of their employees. So based on that experience, plus observations of the teachers of my 3 kids, my own experience of teachers growing up, my wife’s description of some of her colleagues – yes there is room to dismiss 3 out of 100 teachers.
As to the supply and demand of teachers in NC, I t
concernedmom:
I think something happened to my last reply. It is getting late and my typing skills are lousy at the best of times.
I have no idea about the supply of teachers in NC. I strongly suspect that the low salaries are a major issue. Does that account for the low forced dismissal rate? I sincerely doubt it. Turnover is already at 11%. They seem to be able to attract teachers back into the workforce and from other States. (This fact alone should mean that the forced dismissal rate should be around 3% since a 75% hit rate on new hires is exceptionally good.)
It is somewhat of a Catch-22 situation. The Governor and many legislators are not convinced that the teachers are as good as they should be and therefore continually squeeze the purse strings. Teachers and administrators reject the highly generalized criticisms and avoid doing anything that might give credence to those criticisms. Alas doing nothing validates the criticisms as well. It is hard to justify a forced dismissal rate of experienced teachers of less than 0.2%.
Concernedmom:
Interesting. I pondered the dismissal of probationary teachers as I was looking at those numbers. I believe that they really should be treated differently since there are significantly different expectations. Namely probationary teachers are expected to demonstrate the ability to meet certain requirements. Experienced teachers are expected to meet those requirements consistently and continuously. Here is somewhat of analogy. Cops are expected to reach a certain level of physical fitness. I live near Boston and I can assure you that many cops are no longer physically able to do what was initially considered a prerequisite for being hired.
In addition, the issue for me is whether or not the system has and uses processes for identifying weak performers and for progressively improving the quality and performance of its staff. A system that identifies less than 0.2% of its experienced staff as problematic performers has little chance of improving the quality and performance of its teaching staff. It would be like a football team letting one healthy player go every ten years and expecting the team to keep winning.
Bernie, without trying to go back into the previous discussions, let me just point out that the amount of teachers that were fired in NC is meaningless. It is completely irrelevant.
When you have 50% of 1st year teachers gone in five years, WHO CARES ABOUT HOW MANY TEACHERS GET FIRED. And yes, I am yelling.
Teacher turnover is a huge problem – perhaps our biggest. It is costly and time consuming.
I serve as a mentor in my county for new teachers, and it is quite depressing to invest hundreds of hours on a mentee only to see them take off after 3 years of good, quality service in pursuit of a job where they will not be hassled and can make more money.
And they find those jobs – even if they don’t find the $$$$.
ME:
I have said that I agree that excessive turnover is bad. I have also said that NC has a problem with its salary levels. That said, I see the turnover issue, the salary issue and the teacher performance issue as linked. All 3 need to be addressed at the same time.
If you want to garner the support of taxpayers, teachers and teacher unions are going to have to address the issue – even if it s largely a PR issue – of schools that do not appear to be committed to continually improving the quality of their teaching staff.
Bernie,
Does it help you to know that every year some 40% of teachers who ave been teaching less than five years quit? Is there any other profession with so much turnover? Hint: no.
Or do you just want more teachers fired? Many of those who “quit,” were asked to leave and given the opportunity to leave with dignity. But we don’t want that, do we? We want scalps to hang on the wall. Teachers’ scalps.
No other nation does this. None.
Diane:
I remember the same numbers for new teachers from research I did as a doctoral student in 1973. Things do not seem to have changed, which is an issue in itself.
The turnover of young teachers is excessive. Though it is more severe in the US, heightened turnover among new teachers occurs as far as I can see in most countries including Finland.
I am certainly not interested in firing teachers or collecting scalps. I am certainly not interested in embarrassing people. I am puzzled as to why you attribute such malice and mean-spiritedness to anything that I have said on your blog. I have had a long term interest in how professional service organization, like r&d labs, hospitals, schools, accounting firms, etc., can establish and maintain high levels of performance. You have worked in large bureaucracies like the US Department of Education. They struggle with the same issues and the dangers of atrophy as large differences in employee contributions go unaddressed.
Address teacher performance? After scouring decades worth of literature, there is little evidence that there is a lack in quality in teacher performance. There are a few studies here and there – Mike Schmoker comes to mind – but his studies are weak. In fact he cites a 24/7 Learning Study showing teachers basically sit around and students sleep. I have yet to find anything about that study other than his mention of it – I cant find any data supporting the conclusions he used.
The bottom line is that administrators, those closest to teachers, rate teachers high in performance and very few low. And I don’t think this is an issue with the quality of our administrators. I think they are reporting overall what they see – teachers working very hard.
We don’t have a union in NC – they are illegal in NC per our state constitution (for public sector employees) – so your point here is useless.
And it would be better to garner support of the taxpayers to inform them of how they have been ripped off the last 30 years, not by public sector employees, but by corporations and billionaires who have enjoyed historically low taxes for the last 30 years. The billionaires and corporations have so much money they can wipe their butts with it – all garnered on the backs of regular, hard-working citizens. The top bracket has been marginally at 35% for almost 30 years, whereas in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s both the marginal and effective tax rates were significantly higher. We have lost trillions of dollars to the billionaires and corporations that are needed to fund our wars, road, libraries, and schools.
And please provide evidence that “schools do not appear to be committed to continually improving the quality of their teaching staff”. Like I said, there is no evidence that teachers need to be improved in the first place, let alone evidence that we don’t strive to make teachers better now.
Diane – the only profession I see compare to teaching, in terms of attrition, is nursing. In fact, I believe I have see literature suggesting that nursing actually has the highest attrition rates among professions. Of course, the attrition involves nurses being promoted into higher ranks of specialty positions – but it is still attrition and still holds.
And remember, of course, that we are talking about professions as those jobs that require higher education.
Sorry, I should have mentioned Goodlad from the 70’s. But he surmised not that teachers were lazy or needed to be fired, he criticized the system in which teachers were within.
And one more – MET carried out an extensive study in multiple cities, and basically, from the qualitative aspect, found that teachers did not use higher level questioning techniques. I guess that could be analyzed as a lack in quality, in terms of teaching practices.
@Bernie: “In North Carolina, Estate and Gift taxes have not been a significant source of revenue since 2008.
Death and Gift Taxes
2008 176,254,000
2009 116,624,000
2010 83,980,000
2011 26,788,000
2012 58,323,000”
Not a significant source of revenues? Can you calculate how much money it would take to give teachers in NC a 2% raise?
Killing the death tax is projected to cost NC at least 60 million a year. How that is not significant, is beyond me – especially seeing as how it was so important to the Republicans to cut cut cut – as long as it wasn’t cuts to their friends.
I wonder what the 25% cut on state income taxes on the rich will cost the state of NC per year? And I now the wealthy will be hurting. I really feel for them.
ME:
You are correct, the current Estate Tax would roughly cover a one time 2% increase in teacher salaries. Any future salary increases, however, would need either a substantial increase in the Estate Tax rates and/or coverage or a new tax revenue stream.
I raised the issue because somebody referenced the 2008 figure in reference to the decision to do away with the Estate Tax. That was inaccurate and misleading. As to the importance of Estate Taxes, in 2012 NC raised $22,713,357,000. Estate and Gift Taxes, therefore, made up 0.3% of total tax revenues. As I said this is not a significant source of tax revenue.
So you’re saying the estate tax would cover a one time 2% raise for all of the teachers in NC, yet it is not significant? That would put an extra 500 to 600 in my pocket after taxes.
That is significant.
ME:
You are mischaracterizing what I said: “Estate and Gift Taxes, therefore, made up 0.3% of total tax revenues. As I said this is not a significant source of tax revenue.
The average additional $800 is clearly material for individual NC teachers. The point is that in the realm of things it hardly touches on the amount of money needed to pay NC teachers fairly.
I really don’t get the hostility.
Bernie, I am hostile because I have sunk close to 100K into educating myself on how to become a better teacher/administrator. I have many degrees including a doctorate – all in education.
You are ignoring the income tax break that McCrory & friends provided us, which may save me a few bucks, but will save the wealthy heaps. This is a 25% cut – the wealthy will be pocketing thousands, and possibly tens of thousands, per household.
Also all the other money wasted – TFA/SAS/vouchers/ACT
I have not received a raise in what will be 7 years – the 1.2 % raise a few years back doesn’t count – I ended up paying every penny back because the legislature made us pay more for our healthcare.
I have taught for 15 years, and with all my degrees, I make 45K. My admins love me. My kids love me. The politicians hate me.
There is no one in this universe that does what I do, and have done for 15 years, day in and day out, with the amount of education I’ve accrued, that makes 45K.
I’m embarrassed for my family.
You should see the vehicle I drive.
I am hostile. I am PISSED. Maybe I ought to teach in SC – I could get a 10K raise.
ME:
It sounds like you have every right to be hostile at the powers that be in NC. I, however, am not one of them. As far as I can tell, I simply corrected a statement of fact leading to a potential false assertion.
If the salary differential is as significant as you indicate and there are minimal off-sets in terms of costs of job search, professional certifications, family disruption, taxes, housing costs, etc., then a move may indeed be your best option. I do not envy you: It will undoubtedly be a huge headache but it may be the best option. As far as I can see, nothing will likely change in NC for at least an election cycle.
You have a royal right to be irritated. But it is NOT your fault. You did everything right and in good faith. In my career I started out at $5500 after a B.A., an M.A., and an All But Dissertation. I got raises as the years went on, only enough to keep up with inflation. Thus it was as if I ended my career at the same pay as I started it. If I had realized that going in, I might have considered other work that would have used my writing and reading skills. But I didn’t. I liked teaching and didn’t mind penury too much because I had a magically frugal wife who shared my interests in literature and supported them AND because our children got a full scholarship to the private school were I taught.
We had one vacation with the kids in twenty years. We had another just my wife and me after my mother died and left me a small legacy. Beyond that, nothing but spiritual
riches. Whom do I blame? There is no one except the politicians who promoted inflation since Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society, which sounded like a good idea but has come close to destroying this nation. We conservatives are going to take back this country from wasteful progressivism, state by state. You are in one of the front line states. If you vote progressive, you are receiving the bad karma from what your progressive predecessors from Woodrow Wilson and FDR to Obama have put in place. Who can you blame? It’s the authentic American reaction to socialism. You are caught in between the promises you thought could be kept and economic reality. It must be embarrassing to have believed what Democrats told you. But there we are. That’s how I see the situation at the moment. Every man has to choose wisely after assessing the situation. We’re in the same boat, but on my meager pension, I am not going to support higher taxes for public services that can be had for less through charters and vouchers. When progressive politicians stop spending too much money, the economy will turn around and take off. Then some of the expenditures may be restored. But not until. When will progressive politicians stop borrowing to spent? Never. Get used to conservatives cutting government spending when the can.
Harlan my sons, which one is 4 and the other 7 months, will probably attend a private school on sort of a scholarship – I guess you could call it that. Either my wife or my wife will teach at a local private. Christian school, which would allow my sons to attend free – this would be about a 12,000 advantage. Given the low wages offered by this particular school, the 12,000 in tuition would make up for the difference in our public school salaries. I my wife didn’t teach, we would be bankrupt, simple as that.
My wife and I are both products of private, Christian schools and both come from upper middle class families. We are the laughingstock of our family as everyone else (brothers and sisters on both sides) have gone too rake in 6 figure salaries – some even more.
We both love teaching. Teaching in public schools has captured our spirits and changed what we believe politically and socially. Personally, I had never walked into a public school, until I took my first teaching position, after being heavily recruited by a private school.
I’m glad I took that first position – it was culture shock – in a Title I school with 65% black, 20% Hispanic (many of which spoke zero English), and the remainder white. I was very successful there somehow. I was so opposite from the kids, but they taught me valuable lessons. I still had this lingering philosophy that these kids were “bad” because of deep rooted conservative philosophy that placed an undue amount of responsibility on one’s choices in life being the primary determinant of whether one was successful.
I held to that belief – that these public school kids were “bad”, alongside their “bad” families, and that I was better (and people like me) because we made better choices. I held to that belief until I started my Masters in school admin. One of my professors took me to task for blaming these kids and their parents for their choices.
I then began what has turned out to be a six year investigation into the effects of poverty on student achievement. That investigation changed me – it changed the way I vote and what I believe about economics and what produces excellent student outcomes.
I now know, based on evidence, that a student is a product of their environment, and only partially a product of their choices. Poverty/family wealth (alongside the education level of the mother) is the number one determinant of student outcomes – not teachers, not principals, and not schools. They play a role, but not even close to the most important one.
As you probably suspect, I grew up in an ultra-conservative family that was upper middle class and was taught that conservatism is right and everything else is wrong. But as I have become more educated, that belief has worn.
Harlan, progressives haven’t spent our money – regressives have – on wars, tax cuts for the rich (with the belief that they would provide jobs, but they didn’t – they either automated them or sent them to Guatemala), tax cuts for corporations, and subsidies to fat cat oil companies. Our federal debt is a direct result of wars (we spent 4 trillion in Iraq) and making the rich richer. The top 5% own almost 90% of our wealth. Rather than paying taxes to support middle class education, and healthy public services – including libraries, post offices, police, fire, and hospitals – they have banked their money, sent the jobs away (I live in textile country here in NC – our manufacturing jobs are GONE, hence our middle class is being creamed), and are now doing the unthinkable. The wealthy, and the corporations, are running a smear campaign against the public sector as if its our fault (our lavish wages and retirements), using their media, in hopes that they can privatize and pull money out of our sector to prop up Wall Street.
Privatizing is their mass weapon of destruction – post offices, schools, jails, etc… Making the money flow right from the public’s hands straight to their bank accounts. With services from the public sector, money stays in the community longer and changes hands multiple times before being tallied on Wall Street. Not so with corporations. They want our public tax dollars directly , and with help from republicans and neoliberal democrats, their going to get it all.
If we would have taxed the rich over the past few decades, like we did in the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s, when the middle class soared, social mobility was easier, and wage inequality was lower, we wouldn’t be in this predicament. In my opinion, Reagan, and every copy cat president since, has been the problem – trickle down, the invisible market hand will save us, and kill the public sector have us doomed.
I have shifted radically. Although, I a still very conservative in terms of social issues, I will vote Green in the next election. I will vote democrat every opportunity I get at the state and local levels. I am willing to bend on abortion, gay marriage, and even gun rights to get the economics of this nation ironed out.
The solution is to put a hurtin’ on Wall Street and get this nation to believe in people before profits.
You are a noble soul. How does one free the children of poverty from their debilitating traumas, then? I don’t know the answer to saving the population you serve. But I’m pretty sure you won’t ever again have the votes to tax the rich. And even if you had the money, i doubt it would work. I urge you to work more on your economics. Henry Hazzlit, Thomas Sowell, Ludwig von Mises.
I dont serve that population any more. I have moved around to many different schools, and now I serve the people of a rural county, in which the people are hard working (many were laid off from the textile industry) and are very supportive of teachers and our school.
I don’t think I would have lasted in that Title I school for very long. Not many do.
I admit, it would be tough to bring a heavy hand down on the rich. The citizens in this country are so in love with the idea that they too could be millionaires, that even the majority of our middle class are stuck with the wrong philosophy. As you said, it would be tough to win there vote.
Then there’s the trickery that continues with the Democrats themselves – Obama was not the friend of the poor – nor was he the friend of the middle class. I see democrats and republicans, at least economically, in the same boat. The other social issues are there to create a smokescreen as to what is really going on – corporations and the rich rule this country.
The Green party’s economic beliefs would be radical for this country to embrace. Wall street would probably crumble. It would be difficult to ween our people from the idea that if they just work hard…they too can be rich. The key would be job creation, as it is for all the politicians. Jobs are the most important component of any politician’s platform, and I am not sure the Greens have any novel ideas here. In fact, I would probably disagree with many, if not most of their approaches.
But one thing is for sure, until we get somebody elected that is not in the pocket of the billionaires and their corporations, we will continue down the road to surfdom. The billionaires will throw us some scraps and we will fight over them.
Not only that, but even if a Green did win the presidency, could you imagine the lack of support from the rest of the legislature? There’s no way anything would get done.
Economics is a tough science. It is full of uncertain predictions. I am not an expert. I am an expert in education. But I think we need a radical new direction in our economic thinking.