There is good reason for separation of church and state.
America was founded by religious dissidents. Our Founding Fathers wrote into the First Amendment that Congress was not permitted to establish a religion. They wanted all people of all faiths–or none–to live in peace.
Some states had an established religion for a time, but religious diversity made established religion untenable.
One of the great things about public school is that it is separate from religious practice. Everyone, regardless of the religion they hold dear, may learn together.
But what happens when the town itself is controlled by a single religious group? What happens when that sect controls the public schools while its own children attend religious schools? What happens to the public schools?
Here is what happens. It is not a pretty story: They gut them.
From the story:
“Midway through her junior year, something seemed to give way. The school’s deans, who had handled discipline, had been laid off, and many students started arriving at school very late or skipping it entirely. The security staff was also cut, and so fights became more frequent, and students often stayed shut in their classrooms until the halls cleared. Clubs were eliminated, as well as sports teams and the drama program, until the communal life of the schools disappeared and it seemed to Olivia Castor, another Spring Valley High School student, that the school board’s vision of education consisted of little more than “reading, writing, and arithmetic.”
“Then those were cut, too. Last year, the kindergarten school day was reduced by half. AP classes and ESL programs fell by the wayside. In the high schools, so many teachers have been laid off that students can’t fill their schedules: Some have five lunch periods and study halls in an eight-period day. This year, the district floated a proposal to eliminate kindergarten altogether and shorten the school day for everyone else. Jean Fields, the principal of Ramapo High School, told me that if that measure were adopted, not a single student would qualify for the Advanced Regent’s Diploma, considered essential for getting into competitive colleges. Almost half of her 1,400 students would no longer be able to graduate in four years, because they simply will not be able to amass enough credits in time. Last week, the district pulled the most draconian cuts off the table, and suggested firing 50 additional teachers and staff members instead. Even this will mean more students who can’t fill their schedules with classes. “It’s not that we don’t care about graduating,” says Castor. “It’s that the tools for us to graduate are being taken away. We don’t have the classes that can give you a chance to compete.”
Local control.
Using taxpayer money to promote religious interests is not local control.
TE has a bad habit of using political slogans in a decontextualized way. It is part of the rhetorical time-wasting strategy that I have elsewhere described as PTBS (pretending to be stupid). Everyone knows that “local control”, as used in this context, is a conservative slogan that came into prominence during the bussing years, signifying their promise to be nice and quit pulling that SBE (separate but equal) bologna if only folks would let them manage things as moderately genuine communities.
It is most likely a professor’s obsession with the “Socratic Method.” My mother always said, “Anything overdone is of little use.”
Yes, I’m sure it’s done with the best of intentions …
Unfortunately I do not live on a coast, so conservative and local are synonyms. This is the “context” in which I live and a few others as well. Did you catch the nice story in the NYT about the public school in Georgia that decided it could sponsor a prom next year?
Perhaps this would be a good starting point for a discussion of which decisions should be made at which level of government, say local school district, state, and federal. What would LG say is local control? What state control would be appropriate? What federal control? I assume that most would agree some of each, but how much? What limits?
I already offered you a limitation. Using taxpayer money to promote religious interests is not local control–it is private abuse of public funding.
Is that the only constraint on local decisions? Can the local school board decide that educating some populations is simply too expensive? That money is better spent on sports facilities than the arts? Surely there are other decisions that are, by your definition, not local.
It would be a useful to hash out a division of education policy between local, state, and national policy makers. I hope that you might be interested in contributing to the discussion.
Alas, there seems to be little room to actually talk about public policy. I had hoped for a fruitful discussion concerning how decentralized public education should be. Perhaps another time with another post.
LG,
For many local school districts, that is EXACTLY the point of local control. Even for some states like mine, the only thing standing between public schools teaching creationism as science is the Federal Government.
local control
Good point. Horace Mann noted that if common schools offended their patrons they risked disinvestment. Kiryas Joel forces some to leave public schools. Privatization may be the ultimate consequence of McCollum–consider that case’s impact on the public education doomsday clock
I beg to differ. I highly doubt that a 1948 case affirming the separation of church and state in public education is the cause of privatization today. Privatization is about $$$$$$$$$ and power for corporations and entrepreneurs and I believe that is much more likely to be related to the Powell Memo, ALEC, corporate sponsored think tanks and foundations and the rise of neo-liberalism in both parties.
… the cause of privatization today… more likely to be …
The origins of disenchantment and disinvestment in public schools needn’t be the proximal cause for privatization.
OTOH, if public education wants to weather market forces / neo-liberalism, attending to the warnings of Horace Mann would be a good start.
Disenchantment is a hoax. Gallup polls continue to demonstrate that parents have confidence in their own children’s public schools. The hoax originated with the shock doctrine, propaganda of the 1983 “A Nation at Risk”, a crisis that was manufactured under the Reagan administration and which launched the past 30 years of school “reforms”. This myth has been further perpetuated by the “failing schools” narrative, when the problem was and continues to be the fact that kids from lower income families perform worse on standardized tests than children from higher income families, though our government has largely ignored inequality and poverty and blames the achievement gap on teachers. After 3 decades of school “reforms”, middle income kids are not faring as well as they were before “reforms” were instituted and income disparity between the haves and the have nots has concommitently widened during that time, as the middle class has floundered. But it’s been a great ride for meeting the neo-liberal aims of politicians, who penalize teachers, shut down schools and hand them over to privatizers, for whom feeding at the public coffers is a very lucrative, low risk venture.
This is an interesting phenomenon. People have a much higher opinion of their representative in congress than they have of congress as a whole. I am not sure that this means people are actually confident in congress as an institution.
This forum requires I be terse. If I sound brusque, it’s unintentional.
Disenchantment is a hoax.
The poll that matters is voter support for public school funding.
This particular thread involves low income private school parents who don’t use public schools. That qualifies as disenchantment. Too bad our Supreme Court didn’t note in Kiryas Joel that our nation of immigrants includes refugees and Holocaust survivors seeking to recreate shtetls.
… hoax originated with … A Nation at Risk
How many politicians admit subscribing to this conspiracy theory? Regardless of party, our policy is improving education for global competitiveness and economic growth. If that policy is a hoax, where (in government) are the whistleblowers? (Or, like Enron employees, are they planning get out with their money before the hoax comes to light?)
Gallup results are likely good because parents believe educators prepare their children for bright futures. How will a diminished private sector support public school teachers (and other public sector employees/contractors)?
… kids from lower income families perform worse …
Convince a court this is unrelated to unionization. Start with Reed.
government has largely ignored inequality and poverty and blames the achievement gap on teachers.
How are impoverished kids doing in states with more equitable funding?
middle class has floundered. … neo-liberal aims of politicians
So not even teachers unions can buy politicians who believe the union propaganda organs. What is the role of public education in maintaining a middle class and a growing economy? Where is the plan to make that happen? Who finds it credible? Where’s the money?
Violation of constitutional principles, and having no respect for the rights of the minority goes beyond the principle of local control. All control has limits. Jewish people should be especially sensitive to this. One would think their history has taught them something.
Glad to see someone saying this. I don’t think any principles are absolute – one of the wise ideas of America is that there is a separation of powers.
As a Jew whose children attended urban public schools k-12, I’ve been deeply disappointed in what’s going in Kiryas Joel for years.
Please don’t assume that all Jews are Hasidic or share the same beliefs and practices as those described in the article. Just as there are Christian and Muslim sects, there are Jewish denominations as well. I am a Reform Jew and the Hasidic Jews, who are the most orthodox, are as foreign to me as they are to many non-Jews. I do not at all support what the Hasidic Jews have done to public education in NY state. I believe their practices are utterly reprehensible and many other Jews strongly disagree with them as well.
I am Jewish, but like the majority of American Jews, I am not Hasidic. Most of us belong to the Reform (liberal) or the Conservative denominations (often called “movements”). Hasidic Jews are about as similar to us as the Amish are to Episcopalians –very different worldviews and lifestyles.
That said, I doubt that most Hasidics would support this kind of behavior, because education is highly valued in Jewish tradition and there is nothing more precious than children. I find the behavior of those adults to be thoroughly abhorrent. It sounds like a cult..
Hasidic Jews are about as similar to us as the Amish are to Episcopalians
Would an Amish enclave support high school taxes? How ought the Supreme Court balance free exercise with non establishment? What ought a state expect of separatist minority support for public education?
Maybe we need a high school civics lesson on Yoder and Kiryas Joel. No surprise that the American experiment is still a work in progress.
I am a resident of the district here discussed and a Jew. Please don’t put us all under the same umbrella. Even my grandfather, who was orthodox, considered the Hasids as the lunatic fringe of Judaism more than 40 years ago! The differing sects don’t even agree with each other about who is really a Jew. Would you lump all Christians together from ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalists to liberal Episcopals? You have all missed the point and gotten far from the issue: should a group with no boat in the race be the ones setting the rules when they can profit from their decissions?
This doesn’t have to be a black/white – either/or issue. There is right now a bill in front of the NY legislature which would modify the pure local control laws that now exist and give the education department the power to intervene when ‘governance is a substantial factor in chronic underperformance’. There is a petition to support this bill at http://www.poweroften.us
Re:“Our Founding Fathers wrote into the First Amendment that Congress was not permitted to establish a religion.”
The First Amendment says a lot more than that.
It isn’t just that Congress can’t establish a religion. It can “make no law respecting an establishment of religion“.
That proscription is essential to protecting religious freedom — it prevents religious establishments from being regulated, as such, by Congress. But that protection has far-reaching consequences, as our BFFs (Beloved Founding Fathers) well understood. Together with the founding principle of responsible democracy, No Taxation Without Representation, it sets the mortar in the wall between Church and State, since you cannot ask the State to fund what the State cannot oversee.
You clearly do not live in the District of Colombia.
But I used to work in Galveston, where a Dike Crack (DC) was not generally considered a valid excuse to blow up the seawall.
But they acknowledged the existence of a dike crack rather than simply claiming hey do not exist because engenerring stands require that they not exist.
That’s a real eye-opener! Just for the record; Abraham was the one who heard voices in his head, right? The ones who told him to go up on the mountain and kill his son. The one he acknowledged, not the one he had abandoned. Some father…
No matter the fundamentalist religious sect they end result is the same. Insanity on a mass scale. At one time I fought three cults at one time. Two friends had joined and took complete control of their lives and another that tried to take over where I lived. They did not win. One of them connected to Heavens Gate, you know the 29 people with the tennis shoes who thought they were going to the comet. He was not the first who tried to do that it was his buddy Donato from Morningland who tried first. He did not go to the comet as those from Heavens Gate did not also. Mass insanity just at Jimmy Jones. These people have to be stopped. When I turned on my T.V. the night of the pictures from Jones’s compound I understood why I fought these people real clearly and why I fight for equitable education for all now. We cannot let the crazies take over. Just look at Israel and you will see the future if this is allowed. The nutjobs control the place over there. They are the same people as those in the article. They do not have to work, go into the military, have 4-5 times more children than the secular people and eventually will take over the country through the birthrate. They are the haters and promoters of violence as they are the only ones who know anything, according to them anyway. They all want Armageddon to happen and will assist it in any way they can.
The question is what happened next? Did the police come in and stop that violence which is religiously based? Did the Dept. of Ed. come in and stop this? If not, why not? And if not who controlled that lack of action?
“They all want Armageddon to happen.”
Armageddon is a New Testament Christian concept. Jews study only the Old Testament. Hasidic Jews are very unlikely to be well versed in Revelations or believe in Armageddon, let alone aim to “assist it in any way they can.”
Unfortunately, hard as we try to get people out to vote in school board elections, few do. Many home owners don’t have kids still in school, are too busy, disinterested, etc. In this country, we can’t even get people out to vote for president! The Hassidic community vote as a block as dictated by the rabbi and they are delivered to the polls, name lists in hand, by buses (school buses, if you can believe it). They control all local elections and the politicians because without their support, you can’t get elected.
This illustrates two conundrums: voter apathy can yield horrific consequences; and vouchers for religious schools will pose problems that fundamentalists haven’t foreseen. When voters stay home for “minor” elections like those for school, you can get some doozies on the board! Early in my career in the mid 1970s an alliance of parochial school parents and anti-tax candidates took over the board in a neighboring town and decimated the budget. That woke up voters… but students in that HS lost opportunities for their lifetime. And I can’t help wondering what will happen to those politicians who want vouchers for religiously affiliated schools when a mosque wants to get public funding.
“This illustrates two conundrums: voter apathy can yield horrific consequences; and vouchers for religious schools will pose problems that fundamentalists haven’t foreseen.”
Louisiana has had some experience with this. The Mosque pulled its application but not before several of our legislators expressed totally ignorant statements that showed they had not even considered that other religions, besides Christian, would even apply.
The constitution was set up so there is no one church that runs the government, i.e. Church of England.
Or a church run by the government.
I think this has way less to do with religion and way more to do with taxes.
I live in a region that has a very low average income but a very high average property value, primarily because of a large number of extremely expensive recreational homes owned by part-time residents.
A number of real-estate agents often sit on the local board, who have no interest whatsoever in education. They just want to ensure that the taxes stay as low as humanly possible, so the wealthy out-of-towners continue to buy summer homes in our community, rather than in the neighboring resort communities. The results have not been as dramatic as what is seen in this article, but they are definitely there.
This has to do with the Hasidim and that is is, believe me, I used to live there!
And who, prey tell, elected them to the board?
I read, with interest, this description of how this community “does business.”
“In kosher grocery stores, Moskowitz told me, the shopkeepers are accustomed to letting their customers accumulate large bills, running up the tab, trip after trip. ‘Of course they hope to pay it,’ Moskowitz said. If they can’t, the shopkeeper will eventually call Moskowitz (or another charity, or a private individual) and present the assembled bills. Someone else will pay the debt, and when the customer appears the next week, her debts will be canceled, unmentioned.”
My fiancé works for a kosher food company, and he’s told me that there are a countless number of outstanding accounts on any given week–small business kosher grocery stores often ask for orders to be “put on the tab” in excess of thousands of dollars. Then they request new orders to be filled without having paid their accumulated debts. This article seems to shed light on this practice. Needless to say, the grocers eventually pay up, but with much complaint (borderline verbal harassment of the business office manager). The culture demonstrated here does not jibe with the economic principals of the rest of this country, so should anyone be surprised that a hasid majority school board is trying to inject this type of economy into its community? It’s obvious that there is little concern for anyone outside of their own culture but great concern for those on the inside.
This was one of the most intriguing articles i’ve read in 2013. I am happy to see there is a class action law suit vs the school board.
but i must say, THIS situation is what the US Dept. of Ed was created for, not the baloney they’ve been hocking the last 10 years…
What absolute nonsense. This has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Nobody says the hasids are imposing religious practices or values on the public schools. They are cutting the budget. A non-religious act doesn’t become religious just because the people responsible for it happen to be of a particular faith. The same thing would happen if a group of libertarians took over the board, or if a group of senior citizens who don’t have children in the school and are tired of paying taxes got themselves elected. What would you propose, barring hasids from the school board because you don’t like their policy preferences? That would actually be a violation of the First Amendment. In this country we do not impose religious tests for public office.
Randall Levine, I disagree. It reeks of bigotry and hypocrisy for the members of a religious sect to take control of public schools that they do not deign to use, then slash the budget and ruin the education of powerless young people. This is not only uncharitable, uncivic, and unkind, but is an affront to Jewish reverence for education, a value I was taught at a young age. The Torah does not say, education for me but not for thee.
VERY well-put Diane.
If you care about this issue DO something about it! http://www.poweroften.us
Thank you Diane………….! I now live in Flori-DUH where you know how much we are fighting our legislators because they are trying to privatize education with for profit charters.
I went to Ramapo High School in the 70’s, I have friends who went there and now teach there……..it is disgusting what the Hasidim have done to the schools and to the school district.
The state needs to intervene and intervene NOW!!!!
A clue in the description of a typical day in Yeshiva.
” Even Hasidic education reflects this divide: In many yeshivas, the morning is spent on Torah and Talmud, instructed by Hasidim, and then in the afternoon there are a couple hours of instruction in English and math, with separate teachers who are often not Jewish and not much respected.”
Now let’s look at the board’s handiwork for the public schools:
” In the high schools, so many teachers have been laid off that students can’t fill their schedules: Some have five lunch periods and study halls in an eight-period day.”
Sounds like the board has replaced the bulk of regular education courses at the HS with study halls and “a couple of hours of instruction in English and math.”
NY State doesn’t have to turn a blind eye! Tell Gov Cuomo to intervene: http://www.poweroften.us
The problem is not just the cutting of funding but the misuse of public funds as well. Public funds may not be used to purchase religious texts and legally purchased texts for use in religious schools must be accounted for. There is also another huge issue concerning the placement of special needs children in the district and the fact that Federal an State regulations have not been followed.
I and many of my friends graduated from Ramapo High School back in the 70’s, it was one of the best districts in all of New York State. I don’t think anyone saw this coming, New Square was there and no one knew much about it and the Hasidim kept to themselves, mostly in Monsey.
On Long Island I was fortunate to start to see this in the “5 Towns” particulary in Cedarhust and now it’s happening in Lawrence.
Someone needs to stop this and stop it now…………..there should be no take over of OUR public schools, they are open to everyone and if you don'[t want to go there you don’t have to but you surely can’t take them over.
‘
The State needs to intervene and take back our public schools…………..the Hasidim can live like they do but that should not effect everyone else!
This is anti semetism if I have ever seen it, and I AM JEWISH………………..this is disgusting!!!
We had an incident like this in rural Mn with a very conservative group of Christians. They “took over” the school board via a local election, dramatically reduced local tax levy for schools which did not matter to them since most of them sent their youngsters to a local religious school. Very sad.
Via open enrollment, families not wishing to send their children to the local dramatically underfunded “public” school were able to send their children to nearby public schools.
Some religious-based groups run charters.
The largest charter chain in the US is associated with a Turkish imam named Fathullah Gulen. His charters have boards that are all Turkish men. They import Turkish teachers. They took over a public school in Minneapolis and pushed out 40 autistic kids.
NY State Education Dept has an interesting fix, it leaves local control untouched unless it is shown that governance is a substantial factor in chronic underperformance. You can sign the online petition supporting this bill at: http://www.poweroften.us
Stacy, please sign and get all your friends to sign the petition at http://www.poweroften.us
NYSED needs this bill to be able to act quickly and effectively. Anyone can sign, so please share with your friends!
I’ve already signed and i’ve gotten my friends to sign too, we have it all over Facebook. It’s disgusting what’s been done, I graduated from Ramapo and like I said I have friends that teach there and they are sick about it.
May I ask who you are?
Steve White
Just saw this. Signed!
I think this issue is just deplorable, and I am Jewish, too, but not Hasidic (and I don’t know that much about them.)
With state intervention, the issue could be resolved by designating certain numbers of seats on the school board to represent all stakeholders in the community, similar to the way that cities with Local School Councils do it. They should be able to arrange it so that no single group dominates the board.
For example, on a nine seat elected board, designate three seats for parents of children enrolled or recently graduated, three seats for members of the community-at-large who live in the district but have no children enrolled, and three seats for educators who work and live in the school district. This sort of arrangement has been going on in some locations for decades and it’s not unconstitutional.
Where is this happening?
In Chicago, which has never had an elected school board, since the 80s, when it was written into the state School Code, schools have been decentralized and they have had elected Local School Councils (LSCs) which hire principals (who hire teachers), approve the allocation of funds and resources, etc.
“Each LSC is made up of six parents, two community members, two teachers, one non-teacher staff member and the school’s principal. High school LSCs also have a student representative.” See: http://www.cps.edu/Pages/LSCElections.aspx
The kinds of issues which are at stake in East Ramapo are governed in Chicago by the Chicago School Board, which is appointed by the mayor. However, having local councils for each school with control over what happens in that school is an excellent way of increasing community involvement. If the state does take over East Ramapo, it would be a good idea to have community panels involved in the educational process within each school.
Chicago is the only school district in Illinois where school boards are not elected, which is because lawmakers have written different laws for the city into the state School Code. They did this by indicating that those laws only apply to districts with a population over 500,000 –which is just Chicago.
In other words, lawmakers are very adept here at figuring out how to make school laws applicable to just one local. In situations such as in NY, I would think that lawmakers there could craft legislation that only applies in certain situations, too, but rather than basing it on population size, it could be based on risk factors such as when a district is financially insolvent, or when financial insolvency is imminent and the board can’t meet its obligations to educate children in the community in a timely manner (or when that occurs because the board is clearly corrupt and not acting in the best interests of children). Those situations could red flag the district and kick in a clause calling for regulatory oversight by the state and a newly elected school board composed of representative members of the community, such as with the kinds of seats designated on LSCs for parents, community members and teachers. I’m not a lawyer, but I think that something like this could be accomplished by motivated lawmakers.
You have just describes the new law proposed by NY Ed Dept. read all about it at wwww.poweroften.us
Schools must provide the course of study required by school law and it does not sound like that’s happening now http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/EDN/IV/65/1/3204 so one would think that this alone would warrant regulatory oversight by the state.
Why not just out yourself as a union-buster and call it a day?
I have no interest in union busting. Besides, union tactics are doing far more harm to public education than I could, even if I wanted to.
I made my earlier reference into a link. Here you go:
Teacher Turnover in Tight Times: Reed v. State of California
I don’t know that much about them
Public schools will not accommodate them. They must provide for education of their (often many) children. As separatists, economic opportunities are limited. Where will money come from for support of schooling other children?
Here’s the welcome sign for Kiryas Joel:
“Welcome to Kiryas Joel: A traditional community of modesty and values … In keeping with our traditions and religious customs, we kindly ask that you dress and behave in a modest way while visiting our community. This includes wearing long skirts or pants, covered necklines, sleeves past the elbow. Use appropriate language. Maintain gender separation in all public areas.”
Eric, I didn’t say that I don’t know ANYthing about them, just “not that much.”. As it happens, I lived in Israel for a year and I learned some things there. For example, I learned to not go into Hasidic neighborhoods with someone from the opposite sex and wearing what they disapproved of –and I didn’t do so, out of respect and because I think there is something to be said for “When in Rome, do as the Romans,” since I was a visitor and not a citizen in that country.
However, when they came into my secular neighborhood in Israel and yelled at me for walking alongside a member of the opposite sex and wearing what I thought was appropriate, I had a problem with that. I would have the same issue in America, too, because no one owns a neighborhood or has the right to require that other people adhere to their customs.
As for public school accommodations in the US, they will be provided based on educational need, not religious preference.
This thread isn’t acknowledging the Supreme Court’s Kiryas Joel decision, or Justice Scalia’s dissent:
[A]ll its residents also wear unusual dress, have unusual civic customs, and have not much to do with people who are culturally different from them … On what basis does Justice Souter conclude that it is the theological distinctiveness rather than the cultural distinctiveness that was the basis for New York State’s decision? The normal assumption would be that it was the latter, since it was not theology but dress, language, and cultural alienation that posed the educational problem for the children.
So the solution is the Hasidic parents are free to school their kids as they see fit, as long as they pay taxes (which they can’t afford) for public school.
So how are these separatists accommodated in Israel?
Don’t know and don’t really care, this is the US……….. Google and check it out.
I rarely agree with this Supreme Court, but I do agree with them on this matter and, again, I am Jewish.
If the Hasidics cannot afford to be completely self-sustaining, then they should not have chosen to be separatists,
There are many of us who are poor and have never had kids in public schools and we still have to pay taxes, too. But we do not get ourselves elected to school boards just so that we can lower taxes and siphon off public funds to the benefit of our relatives and friends, and without any regard for other people’s children who are attending those schools. That sounds criminal to me and I hope they are prosecuted for it.
I agree it is “criminal” but no more criminal that teachers having unions that take the dues of the teachers and contribute to the campaigns of legislators who then turn around and legislate arrangements for defined benefit penisions, free health care, piling up unfunded liabilities for states. Public sector employees should not have unions at all, but if they do they should only bargain for current wages. Unions in the private sector have a clear purpose, protection of the workers against exploitation by the employers. But in the public sector there is no way for the public to protect itself against exploitation by the unions. Except, of course, by permitting non-union charters and vouchers. To public school teachers it must seem incomprehensible why the public has fought back in the legislatures to limit the influence of public sector unions. Vote tea party candidates if you can bear it, because they are the ones trying to correct the unholy alliance between public sector unions and state legislators.
Google and check it out.
Could you be more specific?
How about:
– Universal Declaration of Human Rights
– American casualties European theater
– Hitler shtetl
Can’t we have shtetls without further marginalizing more recent immigrants?
Isn’t this high school civics? Duties and responsibilities of elected officeholders?
If the Hasidics cannot afford to be completely self-sustaining…
It’s unclear whether they are self-sustaining, and why that ought to be a requirement. It is clear they don’t consider “free public education” to be appropriate for their kids, so they won’t benefit from guarantees of “free appropriate public education.”
I hope they are prosecuted for it
I believe Steve White (see above) signed the lawsuit. One would hope all school board members were competent and sincere in fulfilling their oaths of office. We shall see. If they faltered, well, school kids have also been harmed by at times by overly generous union-endorsed school board members.
There was no need to pit the Hasidim against other minorities–New York State sought to avoid that conflict with the accommodations which Justice Souter struck down in Kiryas Joel.
Read what launched the business plan years ago, The Lewis Powell Memo – Corporate Blueprint to Dominate Democracy: http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/news-and-blogs/campaign-blog/the-lewis-powell-memo-corporate-blueprint-to-/blog/36466/
“If they faltered, well, school kids have also been harmed by at times by overly generous union-endorsed school board members.”
Oh, do tell how this has happened. (I, for one, simply cannot WAIT to hear about the “harm” union-endorsed candidates have done to school kids.)
The Hasidics have chosen to live in America, where there is a constitutional separation of church and state. If they want to be separatists and tell others how to dress, behave and live, then they are free to live communally and do that on their own land, but they should not claim neighborhoods in public towns and impose their lifestyles on others who happen to venture there or who want to live there, too.
One of the main problems with separatists is the lack of tolerance they have for those who are different. That was my experience with Hasidics in Israel, when they admonished me for not following their lifestyle, even though they knew nothing of my background, had no care for the culture that I come from and they were yelling at me in my diverse neighborhood, not in their separatist neighborhood. (I happen to be half Jewish and half Christian.) It’s integrated living that helps people to learn to respect and appreciate people from other religions and cultures, not segregation. So, no, if shtetls mean promoting segregation and intolerance, then I don’t think there is a place for them here, except on privately owned property, such as a commune.
These folks want to be allowed to live their life according to their traditions and yet they want to deny others the ability to do the same thing when they are in their neighborhoods. In my neck of the woods, the people who do that are called gangs and those behaviors are illegal.
Oh, do tell how this has happened
It’s problematic when:
– Teachers who screen school board candidates lack the high school civics necessary to identify board candidates with the knowledge, skills, and dispositions necessary to fulfill the mission of public schools
– Teachers insist on binding arbitration by FMCS mediators unfamiliar with the knowledge, skills, and dispositions necessary to fulfill the mission of public schools
– Union-endorsed school board members accept negotiated agreements which limit districts’ ability to meet legal and ethical obligations toward schoolchildren.
For a discussion of teacher seniority issues in LAUSD, see: Teacher Turnover in Tight Times: Reed v. State of California.
Where in high school civics or teacher preparation is Reed discussed? Wouldn’t teachers want to know if contract provisions are found to harm schoolchildren? Or are they content to have their union’s lawyers tie the issue up in court?
…they are free to live communally and do that on their own land…
The Hasidim have sought to secede from political jurisdictions (e.g. school districts), but they don’t represent the sort of diversity that NYSSBA wants to tolerate. Scalia’s dissent in Kiryas Joel suggests that Souter distinguished between separatism and religiously motivated separatism. This is a complex issue ill served by warring factions. Both sides need better high school civics.
If the lawsuit holds up, there are school board members struggling with “thou shall not steal” and “thou shall not bear false witness.” Supporters of those candidates need better high school civics.
Opponents of the Hasidim invoke MLK. I can tell you first hand that MLK’s colleague Fred Shuttlesworth would say, “Come, let us reason together.” Better high school civics would be a start.
Try teaching your separatist friends who raided the public coffers of education funds all of your “high school civics” lessons –and don’t forget the part about tolerance of diversity and compassion for other people’s children.
Teachers get enough bashing from politicians, “reformers” and the media to have to take this kind of crap from all the know it all lawyers and wannabes who visit this blog, too.
If the lawsuit holds up, there are school board members struggling with “thou shall not steal” and “thou shall not bear false witness.” Supporters of those candidates need better high school civics.
Try teaching your separatist friends who raided the public coffers of education funds all of your “high school civics” lessons
That teachable moment will probably need to wait for the verdict, but here’s a start:
“It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.”
Fred Shuttlesworth would say, “Come, let us reason together.” Better high school civics would be a start.
Teachers get enough bashing … to have to take this kind of crap from all the know it all lawyers and wannabes…
The best place for better high school civics would be high school. Teaching training for high school civics could be pre-service or in-service. Do you encourage a boycott of such “crap?”
Of course, teachers can join associations that resist the mission of public education and obstruct the proper functioning of public schools. Expect taxpayers and legislators to respond with privatization.
BTW, I’m struck by the implication that your accusations substitute for a verdict. Forgive me for asking, but do you pay dues to any organizations that promote a solution to the Hasidim problem? Are you planning on taking action against any groups involved in unAmerican activities? If so, there’s an attorney in New York’s southern district you really ought to meet.
Read some history about the spoils system and why reform was necessary to end patronage in civil service jobs and you’ll get an idea about why I would never, ever in a million years vote for the tea party –and I am not a union teacher: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marc-epstein/what-is-the-meaning-of-li_1_b_832052.html
Where have you heard or seen proposed that the tea party folks want to bring back the spoils system? I can imagine that they might expect political tests, maybe even religious tests, for employment by the public schools, but you do have to remember that hiring in public schools systems has not been meritocratic for decades. I will have to research this, but I very much doubt that even tea party folks want hiring by whom you know and support, though it’s not impossible. The article to which you link, of course, says absolutely nothing about the tea party or conservatives—it is about the efforts of Bloomberg to end LIFO, presumably so they can get rid of higher costing teachers and replace them with cheap young squirts. The tea party has nothing to do with the story. I must assume, therefore, that your antipathy to tea party calls for accountability and responsibility in general arises from something else that you don’t like about them.
These limits are in place because the public school system as now constructed gives those in charge power over large groups of employees. If there was more independence for schools, the limits could be lower.
The only dues I pay is what I have been paying to society for the past four decades, working at non-unionized schools, with no academic freedom, no benefits whatsoever and for peanuts. I am poor as all hell in my golden years because of it and I will never be able to afford to retire. So I know personally how vulnerable teachers are to exploitation when they have no union protections. The only good news is that I have enjoyed a very long, intrinsically rewarding career, except for all the times that I have to deal with pundits who make a sport out of trashing teachers.
I know personally how vulnerable teachers are to exploitation … pundits who make a sport out of trashing teachers.
Thank you for your measured response. Here are my stated goals for participating in this dialog (It’s not “trashing teachers.”):
“How ought the Supreme Court balance free exercise with non establishment? What ought a state expect of separatist minority support for public education?
“Maybe we need a high school civics lesson on Yoder and Kiryas Joel. No surprise that the American experiment is still a work in progress.”
To me separatist has more of a connotation of a group that wants its own country, such as Basque separatists. The Hasidim are not requesting nationhood, they are setting up living quarters and school systems which are physically separated from those who are not Hasidic. They have bus lines for Hasidic only, community centers for Hasidic only, etc. This has traditionally been called segregation in the US. Also, when you are familiar with the scope of socioeconomic interactions with others, such as extensive use of Black and Latino manual labor, especially as domestic servants, it really looks like the setting for the movie “The Help”.
Black and Latino manual labor, especially as domestic servants
Wow. Didn’t see that coming.
Why aren’t the Ramapo kids studying public education and church-state separation in the high schools? Ohio’s social studies standards include FOIA requests and duties and responsibilities of officeholders–New York’s? National Issues Forum provides a format community-based decision-making.
Is there no history of strategic planning/SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats) in the district?
Why isn’t improved high school civics seen as an antidote to the warring factions?
I realize the board might not like it (and such a course may need to be elective or extracurricular), but obstructing education to keep students ignorant would be way too evocative of the segregated South.
As a candidate for East Ramapo school board in 2008, I made a speech at the Martin Luther King Center to the mostly African American audience, that I thought the community was crying out for the schools to reinforce the ethical standards that the parents were instilling at home, and that the teachings of Dr. King should be a central theme of the civics and citizenship curriculum. The next day I got a call from the leader of the Orthodox school board group, who called me a ‘radical’. The truth seems to be that no dominant group has ever wanted to educate the children of their servants, especially in regards to the equality of man.
“It’s problematic when:
– Teachers who screen school board candidates lack the high school civics necessary to identify board candidates with the knowledge, skills, and dispositions necessary to fulfill the mission of public schools”
Pure rhetoric. A blanket statement such as that one, with no exemplars to back it up, is useless in debate. Try again?
“- Teachers insist on binding arbitration by FMCS mediators unfamiliar with the knowledge, skills, and dispositions necessary to fulfill the mission of public schools”
Again, sounds like you believe that just by stating something without specific examples, you write truth. Mediators are called upon to determine fairness of employee contracts, not to create district policy.
“- Union-endorsed school board members accept negotiated agreements which limit districts’ ability to meet legal and ethical obligations toward schoolchildren.”
Again, proof?
None of what was written in your response explains how union-endorsed school board candidates have “harmed school children.” Your cryptic, authoritative writing style isn’t fooling anyone. Why not just out yourself as a union-buster and call it a day?
no dominant group has ever wanted to educate the children of their servants
Again, it needn’t be through the official curriculum–recall Freedom Schools. No one wants to see a Palestinian-Israeli style conflict in East Ramapo.
Dr. Ravitch admirably defers to the ongoing work of former HEW Sec David Mathews. But in action, she doesn’t challenge educators to step up to Mathews’ commitment to participatory democracy. That shortchanges schoolchildren.
Perhaps we can continue this discussion here:
https://dianeravitch.net/2013/04/27/when-a-religious-sect-took-over-the-public-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-161770
Public schools do not have to accomodate them, they have to accomodate the PUBLIC.
If they want them to go to Yeshivas then they have to pay for them just like Private school, sorry but this is the way it works.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS are for everyone unless you choose to go somewhere else, in this case the Yeshivas. I am so tired of this nonsense!
Why not just out yourself as a union-buster and call it a day?
I have no interest in union busting. Besides, union tactics are doing far more harm to public education than I could, even if I wanted to.
I made my earlier reference into a link. Here you go:
Teacher Turnover in Tight Times: Reed v. State of California
Teacher Turnover in Tight Times: Reed v. State of California
“Teacher Turnover in Tight Times: Reed v. State of California”
The sources for this paper are either news reports (oh, they’re NEVER biased, right?) and missives written by those in the profession of law. Neither of theses types of sources have the scholarly clout of those in the education field. Do you have more “evidence?”
“I don’t know much about them”
In New Square, the Hassidic enclave, they have separate sidewalks for men and women. And PLEASE, don’t for a minute believe they are poor! It is a cash economy and plenty of it. Many people in the area have been approached and offered cash for their homes. New yeshivas are springing up like mushrooms all over the community, even in totally inappropriate places.
Neither of theses types of sources have the scholarly clout of those in the education field.
Perhaps an annotated bibliography with all the “scholarly clout” the “education field” can muster could be provided to:
– Teachers who screen school board candidates …
– FMCS mediators …
– Union-endorsed school board members …
In the meantime, I am content to infer non-existence from its apparent invisibility.
“In the meantime, I am content to infer non-existence from its apparent invisibility.”
And I am content to call you anti-union. However, since you do not reveal your affiliation, I will have to believe you somehow benefit from bashing union teachers by insinuating that they are the problem with school boards. Your comments–while you are free to make them–are preposterous with no credible proof. Lawyers and journalists? Really?
Your comments … are preposterous with no credible proof. Lawyers and journalists? Really?
Perhaps the NEA could save its members some money (and improve public perception of the teaching profession) by firing its lawyers.
So how many billion dollars of teacher union dues does it take for the NEA to produce a response to UN concerns with human rights violations in public education?
BTW, you do you receive tax dollars for assessing students? By what rubrics? In what subjects? Hopefully, not social studies.
Or perhaps you supervise the union staffers paid with money from teacher dues. How doe these 6-figure union employees demonstrate command of high school civics?
Eric, correct me if I’m wrong, but your beef with any teachers union is based on what you perceive as “inaction in regard to UN human rights violations?” And your argument to discredit me is to insinuate that I do not know anything about civics? In fact, it appears your argument against everyone is: “They do not know enough about civics.”
Is that about right?
I have mentioned specific court cases and high school civics standards that seem applicable to the East Ramapo situation. I called out the NEA as an organization that pays lawyers (who file amicus briefs) apparently lacking “scholarly clout.” (Or perhaps judges lack appreciation for “scholarly clout.”) Relevant U.S. treaty obligations require support from education stakeholders at all levels. I don’t know that Randi Weingarten (or most teachers) would disagree:
Dr. Ravitch: This is not only uncharitable, uncivic, and unkind, but is an affront to Jewish reverence for education
Eric: Maybe we need a high school civics lesson on Yoder and Kiryas Joel. No surprise that the American experiment is still a work in progress.
Eric: Isn’t this high school civics? Duties and responsibilities of elected officeholders?
Eric: Teachers who screen school board candidates lack the high school civics necessary …
Eric: Where in high school civics or teacher preparation is Reed discussed? Wouldn’t teachers want to know if contract provisions are found to harm schoolchildren?
Eric: This is a complex issue ill served by warring factions. Both sides need better high school civics.
Eric: Supporters of those [Hasidic] candidates need better high school civics.
Eric: Fred Shuttlesworth would say, “Come, let us reason together.” Better high school civics would be a start.
Other Spaces: Try teaching your separatist friends who raided the public coffers of education funds all of your “high school civics” lessons … crap from all the know it all lawyers
Eric: The best place for better high school civics would be high school. Teaching training for high school civics could be pre-service or in-service. Do you encourage a boycott of such “crap?”
Eric: Why isn’t improved high school civics seen as an antidote to the warring factions?
Power of Ten (Steve White): Dr. King should be a central theme of the civics and citizenship curriculum.
Eric: How do these 6-figure union employees demonstrate command of high school civics?
Randi Weingarten is AFT, not NEA. And further, while teachers unions are proponents of public education and the rights of public teachers, unions are not public governing bodies. I fail to see how you can make a connection of union responsibility in this case when such an act is not permissible by law. You seem to be connecting dots that aren’t even on the same page and then complaining when they don’t make a picture.
Unions do not “train” teachers in civics–they serve to protect teachers from damaging employer practices. Further, your continued mention of “six-figure” salaries shows bias to those VERY few who may command a salary at that level despite the credentials they have and the risks they take.
One of the unions in my state employs a staff of full-time professionals who are working on behalf of its membership while the membership is busy teaching. There is a legislative department whose job includes reading and interpreting legislation, communicating the tenets of legislation to the membership, and speaking at the statehouse on behalf of the membership. I don’t know where anyone could say that these employees do not “demonstrate command of high school civics.” No one is sitting around collecting a paycheck on the backs of anyone else.
The paper you referenced in another post, the one with sources outside of the educational research domain, cannot be used to color teachers unions in general further due to its specific, not general, case nature. The problem with using law research as evidence to support your “teachers lack civics knowledge and it’s the union’s fault” stance is this: One conditional event is used as precedent to color all subsequent events despite the countless number of variables present.
You prove nothing with any of your above comments except bias, rhetoric, and misjudgment. Your civics commentary is a one-hit wonder that is continually missing the mark when applied to teachers unions. Unions DO NOT run government. This school board found a way to influence the public so its members could get into power. No union could stop this.
Randi Weingarten is AFT
Indeed. She and Diane both critiqued P21 which partnered with NEA:
http://www.commoncore.org/p21-challenge.php
unions are not public governing bodies.
Of course not.
I fail to see how you can make a connection of union responsibility in this case when such an act is not permissible by law.
What direction have teachers provided their unions:
A) Be zealous advocates for our salary, benefits and working conditions
B) Be an honest broker, respecting the ethics of the teaching profession
Alternative A can lead to negotiated agreements that fail to ensure equal protection for schoolchildren (not quite what Reed ruled, but close).
seem to be connecting dots …
I appreciate the dialog. I can’t publicly share all the dots, so I need to make a picture that supports union reform using dots we all agree about. It was Harlan (not I) on this thread who wrote of an “unholy alliance between public sector unions and state legislators” My initial point was stuff happens–even with union-endorsed school district board members.
Unions … serve to protect teachers from damaging employer practices.
The point I attempted to make was all the players (teachers, administrators, board members, federal mediators and six-figure labor relations consultants from the state union affiliate) aren’t sharing a common view on the purpose of public education and a shared plan for achieving it. (Have they all had high school civics? Does their state have a plan to guarantee equal protection for schoolchildren?)
VERY few who may command a salary at that level…
Salaries paid by teachers to union staff members, not teacher salaries.
full-time professionals who are working on behalf of its membership while the membership is busy teaching.
Perhaps they could speak to high school seniors about how unions cooperate with elected school and government officials to address equal protection guarantees or the concerns raised by Koh’s Memoranda Regarding U.S. Human Rights Treaty Reports.
Harold Hongju Koh (legal counsel to the US Department of State) has raised the bar for high school civics. Odds are, union professional staff didn’t get the memo. If FMCS got the memo, I doubt they took appropriate action. Has you state’s union affiliate noted teacher’s obligations noted by the Koh memos? Did teacher prep propgrams get the memo?
using law research … civics knowledge
Goodwin Liu (now on the California Supreme Court) disagrees: Education, Equality, and National Citizenship. Perhaps Justice Liu’s work could contribute to the “bar exam for teachers” that Randi Weingarten finds attractive.
Forget all the bullshit……….. PUBLIC schools are just that, PUBLIC, for everyone. If they want to go to Yeshivas, which are private then let them pay for it!
If they do not want to learn like the rest of the public, then they must pay for their children to go to Yeshivas and they can foot th ebill like the rest of the people who want a private education, END OF STORY!
“What direction have teachers provided their unions:
A) Be zealous advocates for our salary, benefits and working conditions
B) Be an honest broker, respecting the ethics of the teaching profession
Alternative A can lead to negotiated agreements that fail to ensure equal protection for schoolchildren (not quite what Reed ruled, but close).”
Both are in the purview of teachers unions, and both are in practice today. While I agree with your statement that protecting teachers rights can fail to provide equal protection to schoolchildren, I do not agree that this remote possibility should be the crux of your argument for union reform. It is far too flimsy and unproven by the countless examples of negotiated contracts that improve schools and the teaching/learning process. The very people in the trenches who advocate for children on a daily basis are protected by collectively negotiated contracts. I would not want my child in the classroom of a disgruntled, overworked and under-compensated teacher. The work is difficult enough without bringing hardship on a working person and then expecting him to do his best work with my child as a charge.
“I can’t publicly share all the dots, so I need to make a picture that supports union reform using dots we all agree about.”
Why not? Why do you want union reform? Is it because many politicians and their friends who control the country’s money squander pensions and misappropriate public funding putting undue burdens on taxpayers? Union reform is the mantra of those who want to blame public employees for expecting to be paid for the work they do. Ironically, you are barking up a tree with an ideology that is anything but civic-minded.
“My initial point was stuff happens–even with union-endorsed school district board members.”
If you mean that there have been instances where union-endorsed candidates turn around and make bad decisions for schools after they’ve been elected, look no further than our president, but to pass this comment off as if it’s “par for the course” is irresponsible or, at the vey least, unfair. It is a weak argument for union reform. Being affected by and affecting the game of politics is an unfortunate facet of an educators life. There is no avoiding of politics, whether one wants to or not.
“Unions … serve to protect teachers from damaging employer practices.
The point I attempted to make was all the players (teachers, administrators, board members, federal mediators and six-figure labor relations consultants from the state union affiliate) aren’t sharing a common view on the purpose of public education and a shared plan for achieving it. (Have they all had high school civics? Does their state have a plan to guarantee equal protection for schoolchildren?)”
While unions advocate for public education, they have little power to influence the kinds of curricular choices to which you refer–the CTU’s strike, notwithstanding. (They are still struggling to preserve their schools in Chicago, let alone a rich curriculum.)
“VERY few who may command a salary at that level…
Salaries paid by teachers to union staff members, not teacher salaries.”
Yes, we are speaking of the same. Not every union staffer makes a six-figure salary. In fact, most do not, but it has been a “talking point” of the anti-union camps to spread falsehoods in this regard in an attempt to “divide and conquer” membership by “pointing out where all those union dues are going.” It is an act of political posturing to even bring such nonsense up in a debate. This point cannot be taken seriously.
“full-time professionals who are working on behalf of its membership while the membership is busy teaching.
Perhaps they could speak to high school seniors about how unions cooperate with elected school and government officials to address equal protection guarantees or the concerns raised by Koh’sMemoranda Regarding U.S. Human Rights Treaty Reports.
Harold Hongju Koh (legal counsel to the US Department of State) has raised the bar for high school civics. Odds are, union professional staff didn’t get the memo. If FMCS got the memo, I doubt they took appropriate action. Has you state’s union affiliate noted teacher’s obligations noted by the Koh memos? Did teacher prep propgrams get the memo?”
Must general teacher prep programs address this? I haven’t read the reports myself but I teach music, not social studies which is why, perhaps. Incidentally, union staffers branch out into many aspects of equal rights for students in their support of sound pro-public education legislation. You seem to be fixating on the memoranda as if the memo is of a “holy grail” status. I will read up on it, but in the meantime, I will continually strive to practice the tenets of good citizenship in a respectful environment by example in my classroom. Offer evidence that unions are detrimental to students rights, and you’ve got yourself a dialogue. So far, all I’m getting are some talking points that are not applicable across-the-board.
The concerns I raise appear to apply in Los Angeles; see this comment:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
May 15, 2013 at 6:50 am
https://dianeravitch.net/2013/05/14/an-appeal-to-utla-please-help-monica-ratliff/comment-page-1/#comment-169140
I love the idea!
Unfortunately, it’s this simple: “What we don’t spend on education today shall be spent building prisons tomorrow.” Wake up people!
Jim,
We’ve woken in the State of Flori-DUH, we are now fighting a Parent Trigger Bill being pushed by Jeb Bush.
We defeated it last year and we are trying to defeat it this year. Jeb Bush and Michelle Rhee and all the Republicans…………..this state is disgusting, we have the most hated Governor of all, Rick the Fraud Scott, ugh!
Stacy, this explains why Florida does not need a trigger to shoot down public schools: http://myednext.org/profiles/blogs/and-the-deception-continues-on-parent-trigger
Thank you Diane, Rita happens to be a friend and i’ve already read it, lol!
My daughter graduates this year and I am a single mom, that’s why i’m not as involved as others, just behind the scenes, although I did hear you speak at Lynn University, loved it!!!
I just hate to see a school system where I graduated from fall down so far………..and I do know the Hasidim and it’s bad.
Jim,
Unbelievable, the Parent Trigger bill was defeated in the Senate by a vote of 20-20, a tie means defeat and they said it couldn’t be done, ha!
See what advocacy can do!
If they want to be seperatists then let them go live on their land, stay out of the public view and stay out of the public schools and off the public schools board! That seems pretty simple to me and would be real simple for them.
That’s similar to what I said and it seems simple enough to me as well. However, it sounds like what they want is to live in both worlds on their terms only.
Absolutely right, Dolly!
Well they can’t have it both ways, either live your life the way you want and don’t bother anyone, or join the USA and live life.
It’s not fair for one group of people to run the city in to the ground just because they do not believe as the rest do.
Retired Justice Sandra Day O’Connor wants to see the Ramapo kids (well, all disadvantaged kids) get a civics education that allows them to confront real-life issues. Why not start with George Washington and walk forward with Horace Mann and the Supreme Court decisions on public education a church-state separation?
From ETS: “These [segregated] schools also provide fewer and lower-quality civics learning opportunities than schools with more advantaged student bodies. Levinson recommends five specific actions: reducing the dropout rate, improving the state of civics education across the K-12 curriculum, helping students construct more empowering civic narratives, infusing more experiential civics education into the curriculum, and providing powerful civic learning and engagement opportunities for urban teachers.”
No school funding formula would address this conflict without some adjustments–I’m baffled that this mess was allowed to fester for most of a decade.
Sandra Day O’Connor is not an educator. High school is too late for children to begin learning civics. Children need anti-bias curriculum beginning in Preschool and Kindergarten. This has been considered best practice for all children in Early Childhood Education for decades.
It is not enough to teach only one of the populations involved in this situation. How does anyone propose this be done, when the Hasidics are in charge of the public school curriculum dollars and their own children are in separate schools? Are private schools monitored by the state in NY, and do they have to provide the same course of study as public schools?
It seems the people who are most in need of learning this from a young age are the least likely to ever do so, unless there is intervention from the state.
BTW, the Hasidics would probably never want their children to be taught anti-bias curriculum because it includes issues around gender bias and segregation, which are inherent in their culture.
Although NYS requirements are for All schools, they are barely met in Hassidic Yashivas. They come out of school well versed in Hebrew studies and get almost no secular studies at all. Even required English lit is censored. Social studies is non-existent. For a real eye-opener, read “Unorthodox”, a book by a woman raised in the Hassidic community who left. She even lived In Rockland for a while.
The difficulty of changing the yeshiva curricula does not absolve East Ramapo school board members of the obligation to ensure quality K-12 education, especially in Ramapo and Spring Valley High.
In Ohio, the law on the books addresses this intransigence by dissolving the district and redistricting school buildings to neighboring districts.
Different constituencies have different goals–schools are supposed to prepare students for that eventuality:
-Remedy the effects of past discrimination
-Remedy the effects of past genocide
-Address the “compelling governmental interest in educating all of our children to function effectively in a multiracial, democratic society and realize their full intellectual and academic potential.”
Are these constituencies bringing their “A” game to the table? Or would they rather feud than reason together?
Reclaiming Public Education by Reclaiming Our Democracy would be a step in the right direction.
Very well said. The roots of the current catastrophe can be traced back to a ‘deal’ between public school administration, which is responsible for education of ALL students, and yeshiva school administration. The deal was that if the public administrators looked the other way while yeshiva students were denied their right to an education, the yeshiva administrators would not use the block vote to vote down school budgets. So, what has been described over and over again as a clash between communities is really cynical maneuver by religious and government bureaucrats that has hurt generations of children and threatens democracy itself. Now if the state does not act, this attack on education will definitely spread. Please sign the petition at http://www.poweroften.us
cynical maneuver by religious and government bureaucrats that has hurt generations of children and threatens democracy itself.
So instead of:
“…improving the state of civics education across the K-12 curriculum, helping students construct more empowering civic narratives, infusing more experiential civics education into the curriculum…”
teachers in the district ignored the underlying issues?
Pick a playbook for your school community:
– Schools that work: America’s most innovative public education programs: “Choose a group of Americans you think could be empowered by voting in a block (for example, black people, women, gay people, homeless people, farmers, or workers). Research the interests and needs of the group you have chosen and speculate on how voting in a block might empower them to solve their problem.”
– Reclaiming Public Education by Reclaiming Our Democracy “is about what citizens and educators alike want from public education and how they might come closer to getting it. It is also about the obstacles that block them, beginning with significant differences in the ways that citizens see problems in the schools and the ways that professional educators and policymakers talk about them. Discussions of accountability, the achievement gap, vouchers, and the like don’t always resonate with people’s real concerns. As a result, a deep chasm has developed between citizens and the schools that serve them.”
The board needs to go back to the people, get the Hassids off the board, this is ridiculous and anti semitism at it’s worst.
They do not want to go to the Public Schools, oh well, then pay for your own Yeshivas, this is the US, it’s not your own state!
I am Jewish and proud of it but I would be ostrisized in their community for not conforming to their laws.
Does the state of New York have the know-how to effect an exemplary resolution of the conflict in East Ramapo?
Relocate the shtetls to Utah?
Something more appealing to the Hasidim than “If they don’t like American matzo, let them eat shrimp?”
Eric, are you for real? This particular group of Hassids doesn’t even think that other Hassids are “Jewish enough”! A member of their own community inside New Square was attacked and badly burned because he had the audacity to want to attend a different shul. Girls get hit with sticks by young men for not being “proper enough” while walking inside the shtetl. The leaders of this community are nothing but control freaks and bullies. It would never be tolerated out here.
Please consider asking your US Senators why Thomas Perez (nominee for US Secretary of Labor) doesn’t share your concerns–at Department of Justice, he appeared more concerned with the Amish than with East Ramapo:
A group of Amish “forcibly removed beard and head hair from practitioners of the Amish faith with whom they had ongoing religious dispute,” longest sentence 15 years, total of all sentences (of all convicted) 68 years. “the Department of Justice will not tolerate religiously motivated violence”
In contrast, Shaul Spitzer (of New Square) pled guilty, sentenced to 7 years for arson attack on Aron Rottenberg.
Of course, the East Ramapo community will need to do better than accuse the Hasidim of being “not poor” (just greedy?) and wanting them “out of the public view and … out of the public schools and off the public schools board.”
It’s the Economy, Stupid!
or
How Are Our Freedoms Being Used?
A response to Diane Ravitch’s blog of April 27, 2013
Although one of the precious freedoms that are the birthright of Americans is the Freedom of Speech, it is, nevertheless, illegal to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theater when there is no such danger. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. rendered an opinion, in 1919, that there is no absolute right of free speech because there could be circumstances in which unbridled expression would cause problematic or dangerous situations.
Yet, Diane Ravitch, who is described as an historian of education and Research Professor of Education at New York University, printed a blog based on the false allegations of a high school student who is known for spouting untruths in public. Ravitch’s inciteful comments could, indeed, be categorized as a breach of our First Amendment right by her falsely “shouting” lies that could cause great harm – not only to a local community, but to a whole group of people throughout the country. (Does Germany in the 1930’s come to mind?) Did Dr. Ravitch bother investigating the statements that inspired her to write an article damning the East Ramapo Central School Board for actions that it had supposedly taken?
She wrote, “But what happens when the town itself is controlled by a single religious group?” and then continued, saying that “they gut” the public schools. She intimated that the Board members, whose majority is comprised of Orthodox Jews, have only the interests of their own children’s schools at heart, and that they destroy the public schools by cutting staff and services. She based her article on the words of the afore-mentioned student, whose statements we will rebut shortly.
There are many points to be made in establishing the true situation. One point, which may or may not be relevant, is that two-thirds of the student population of that district attend private religious schools. The parents pay taxes, just like everyone else, in addition to the high costs of tuition, so they certainly have a right to have their children’s needs met, within the laws of separation of church and state. And, indeed, there are many restrictions to the funding that these schools receive. As an aside, does Dr. Ravitch remember another of our precious freedoms – that of Freedom of Religion, or freedom for religion, based on personal choice?
Back to the “story” that she quotes. We will address the issues one by one. Before we begin, we would suggest that Dr. Ravitch do some research into the status of education all over the country, and the massive cuts in staff and services that have been made throughout the United States. She could check the website, The Center for Public Education, and see examples of state and district funding cuts – because of the present economy!
The student stated that there has been a decline in discipline and an increase of fights due to the cutting of the number of deans and security personnel. No such thing happened. Did Dr. Ravitch check with any principals or school district employees to ascertain the veracity of such a claim? In fact, educators in the district noted that there is less fighting than previously, and that the halls are quiet between classes. Nor has there been mandated elimination of sports teams and drama programs, as the student reported. Several of them were undersubscribed, and therefore, discontinued.
She purported that “AP classes and ESL classes fell by the wayside.” False. AP classes still exist – ESL classes have expanded! Her statement “Some (students) have five lunch periods and study halls in an eight-period day” is true – but only for a handful of seniors, who have completed their requirements. In fact, many of the students have credits far in excess of the requirements. The student also presented the words of a District educator so that they seemed to convey a message exactly opposite of what the speaker had intended.
Reduction of the full-day kindergarten was a cut made due to the decrease in funding (It’s the economy, stupid!).
Sequestration in federal funds (cutting of funds) resulted in the elimination of over 20 specialized teacher positions (music, art, library). With a New York State-imposed budget cap (which means that taxes cannot be increased over a certain amount), the cost of maintaining this staff cannot be added to the budget.
In a school district where over 75% of the public school children get free or reduced breakfast and lunch in school, extra funds are not easily available. For many students, these are their only meals of the day. Many take clubs voluntarily so that they can stay in school longer.
Many of our students are involved in after-school sports and club programs. Some of these programs are funded by the District; some are run by volunteer teachers and coaches. We appreciate the dedication and selflessness of the staff who go the extra mile to help maintain an extra-curricular program.
I hope that Dr. Ravitch will be open-minded enough to understand a point of view other than the one she espoused in the comments she made in April.