This is one of the best quotes I have seen in a very long time:
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Reblogged this on Kmareka.com.
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I like this!
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Sounds too hopeless for me: “Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
We need hope – we parents, we teachers, we who care about kids… dare we hope?
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This could help to explain why the majority of the people who turned out last week voted for initiatives that the politicians they elected at the same time are opposed to, such as increasing minimum wage and raising taxes on the wealthy. Must be Stockholm Syndrome, too.
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The bamboozling started in full force with NCLB Act and has gotten worse year by year. NCLB was based on lies and those lies continue today. The big corporations are on the Bamboozle Band Wagon and riding it for all it is worth. Our Professional Educations have been put in a position of not standing up the politicians backed by the Big Money Grabbing Corporations for fear of the reprisals they will face. Professional Educators now live in fear for their jobs if they speak out against “The Reform Movement” in it current form. Students live in fear of going daily to school to face the never ending useless testing. Parents live in fear of saying anything to Teachers or the Central Office because there is a possibility of retaliation against their children. The US Presidents, Congress, US Secretaries of Education, and State Governors and Legislators have all taken a knee before the Almighty Educational Corporate Throne. Our leaders, who to took an oath to serve the people, have cowed down to the Big Corporations and have become a part of the Educational Bamboozling that is going on in this country and are servants to these Big Corporations.
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Latest Bamboozlers are the “on-line only” promoters of “learning,” no need for teachers.
In a press release dated February, 3, 2014 KnowledgeWorks and The International Association for K-12 Online Learning (iNACOL) announced their shared agenda for federal policies that would change “our entire K-12 education system” to fit a student-centered learning environment with demonstrations of competency, free of traditional notions of schools, teachers, and student learning.
The policy report addressed to federal officials calls for the status quo on requiring students to meet college-and career-ready standards, but these standards would be aligned with specific competencies mapped into the idea of optimum trajectories for learning that will lead to graduation. Individual students would be tracked on the “pace” of their mastery through the use of on-line and “real-time” data. The data for each student is supposed to inform the instruction, supports, and interventions needed by each student in order to graduate.
This vision requires competency-based interpretations of the college-and career-ready standards and measures of those competencies. It requires a recommendation system (data-driven guide) for prioritizing required learning and ensuring continuous improvement in learning until graduation.
The vision calls for federal funding to states and districts for developing “personalized learning pathways” (PLPs) for students along with the infrastructure needed to produce real-time data for just-in-time recommendations for the interventions and supports needed to move students to college and career readiness.
The system in intended to build reports on the progress of individual students relative to mastery, or a high level of competency, for the college and career readiness standards.
In addition to keeping individuals “on-pace” in demonstrating standards-aligned competencies, this entire system is envisioned as offering “useful information for accountability, better teaching and learning, and measures of quality in education.”
In effect, programmed instruction is the solution for securing student compliance with the Common Core State Standards, assuring their entry into college and a career, with “instructional designers and programmers” the surrogates for teachers. Teachers are not needed because the out-of-sight designers and programmers build the recommendation systems for needed “interventions,” also known as “playlists.”
This is a souped-up version of vintage 1950s programmed instruction amplified in scope and detail by technology–on-line playlists and monitors of PLPs–personal learning plans–available anytime.
In fact, students get one-size-fits education, at the rate they can manage. The rate learning is optimized by computers programmed to lead students to and from the needed playlists of activities (e.g., subroutines that function as reviews, simple re-teaching, new warm-ups for the main learning event or subsets of methods for presenting the same concept). The student does what the computer says and the computer decides if and when mastery or some other criterion for competence has been achieved.
The selling framework is for “personalized, competency-based student-centered learning in a de-institutionalized environment.
Out of view are scenarios where all education is offered by “learning agents” who broker educational services offered by a mix of for-profit and non-profit providers. Token public schools remain in the mix, but are radically reduced in number and the loss becomes a self-fulling prophesy justifying radical cuts in state support. Profit seekers, together with volunteers and “20-year commitments from foundations” provide for “students in need. This is one of several scenarios from KnowledgWorks.
The quest for federal funds is found here at http://knowledgeworks.org/building-capacity-systems-change-federal-policy-framework-competency-education#sthash.Nr0OpfWq.dpuf
more at the CompetencyWorks website http://bit.ly/cwk12fedpolicy
– See more at:
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I don’t think we’re being bamboozled here. I think it’s more simply an issue of powerful people (politicians, media) being bought by more powerful people.
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Virtually every aspect of education “reform” is a major bamboozle. That includes all the promises made with lack of evidence to support claims that kids would benefit from NCLB, RttT, high stakes testing, charter schools, etc. The real winners are adults running testing and curriculum companies, charters, etc., who have been allowed to get their hands on the funds in a $600B a year industry that is paid for by tax dollars.
Just this week, I have seen a commercial that has aired at least two dozen times extolling the virtues of Common Core “State” Standards, ostensibly sponsored by the National Urban League (NUL). There was no mention of the specious way the standards were created, or any indication that they were never piloted, nor info about how Gates gave NUL nearly $4M to promote “communications.” Everything about Common Core is a major bamboozle.
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I don’t think we’re all that different in view, Cosmic Tinker, other than I don’t think people are really being fooled. If more parents were falling for the rhetoric and propaganda, I’d label this a bamboozling, because I agree with many of your points.
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There is growing awareness, but you have more faith in an informed citizenry that exists today than I have. I think it’s going to take more time to reach the masses, because a lot of people, including some educators, seem to be confused. I believe that was intended by the perpetrators, too, such as by hijacking civil rights language. .
I think there is a lot of confusion in general, not just related to education, due to bamboozling the public, and that was demonstrated last week by all the people who voted for initiatives like raising the minimum wage and increasing taxes on the wealthy at the same time that they elected politicians who are against those very initiatives. I believe this is the result of smoke and mirrors politics intending to obfuscate the money trail that leads to corporate influences in government. I think the illusion that we actually still have two parties has exacerbated matters for people, too, when we have really had Republicans and GOP Lite for some time now, both representing the best interests of corporations, not regular people or the common good.
That said, I found Obama’s stance supporting Net Neutrality today refreshing and surprising. He looked like a defeated man to me. Who knows. As a lame duck against a new GOP Congress, he has a lot of lessons to learn. Maybe he will “turn around” and start representing the Democratic base who he bamboozled with bait and switch.
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There has clearly been an effort to bamboozle the public, using the mantle of “science” to do so.
But it appears that it is not working, which is why folks like Duncan and Obama are now back-peddling, claiming that there is too much testing and that they only support “good” testing.
Carl Sagan would almost certainly have recognized “reformer” policies like VAMs for the pseudo-scientific crap that they are.
In addition to the basically random results given by VAMs, the fact that the people who come up with the value added” models they are using to fire teachers won’t release the computer code that would allow independent inspection tells you that what they are doing is not science.
Scientists are not afraid to share their methods and data. Pseudoscientists won’t because they know that doing so will expose them as the frauds that they are.
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Totally agree with what you wrote, SDP, and absolutely agree about the EFFORT to bamboozle the public. Shameless.
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Reblogged this on David R. Taylor-Thoughts on Texas Education.
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Oh, my Diane… you found THE WORDS THAT I USED, also stated by that brilliant man.
Here is my essay “Bamboozle Them” written years ago for Oped News, when I recognized the plan to confuse our citizens regarding public education.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/BAMBOOZLE-THEM-where-tea-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-110524-511.html
so they could sell snake-oil and magic elixirs
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Magic-Elixir-No-Evidence-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-130312-433.html
Here are my opening words in “Bamboozle Them”
“Bamboozle ’em,” is a song from the musical “Chicago.” It should be the anthem for those who are foisting student tests as tools to evaluate teachers. This trickery is the final blow to the profession of pedagogy.
REMEMBER THESE WORDS: Genuine and Authentic. The key process in the destruction of the schools is the removal of teacher-practitioners with no fair, genuine or accurate assessment.
This is key to understanding the FALLACY of testing AND THE TERRIBLE HOAX being perpetrated on a public which wants real reform, but is in the dark, literally, as there is a total blackout of the voices of genuine academics and educators. Authentic academics write prolifically about what would actually transform our public education systems. Instead, the public is inundated by the voices of pundits and experts who were administrators that ran educational systems (often into the ground) but who have no grasp of the PRINCIPLES OF LEARNING , and have never faced emergent learners.
They talk about ‘teaching’ and they have decided that the public understands the word ‘tests’, and thus, if they frame the conversation about ‘testing’ teachers, the public will believe them. After all, Klein and Rhee were the top administrators of major school systems. They are the experts! They are experts and legends in their own minds, because the systems they ran were utter failures where learning declined under their tenure.
I call this BAMBOOZLING THE PEOPLE:”
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From Danielle
November 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm
We need hope – we parents, we teachers, we who care about kids… dare we hope?
From Gene Gant
November 10, 2014 at 12:30 pm
Our Professional Educations have been put in a position of not standing up the politicians backed by the Big Money Grabbing Corporations for FEAR of the reprisals they will face.
Professional Educators now live in FEAR for their jobs if they speak out against “The Reform Movement” in it current form.
Students live in FEAR of going daily to school to face the never ending useless testing.
Parents live in FEAR of saying anything to Teachers or the Central Office because there is a possibility of retaliation against their children.
The US Presidents, Congress, US Secretaries of Education, and State Governors and Legislators have all TAKEN A KNEE before the Almighty Educational Corporate Throne.
From Albert Einstein’s quote:
“I FEAR the day that technology will surpass our HUMAN INTERACTION. The world will have a generation of idiots.”
Therefore, Danielle can hope as much as she could do. And Gene Gant affirmatively provides all concrete reason of FEAR. Last but not least, Albert Einstein announced his wisdom regarding today’s generation of tech savvy. Yes human interaction is very precious. We need a solution, NOT ONLY A HOPE, NOT A FEAR, but A SOLUTION, A HUMAN INTERACTION, A REALITY, A UNITY between parents and teaching work force. Back2basic
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Another Sagan quote that is fitting:
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
And with a complete absence of any evidence, the reformers have used their extraordinary claims to force a multi-trillion dollar overhaul of K-12 public education.
And now, 13 years into this failed, test-and-punish experiment we have evidence that disproves many of their claims and yet we continue to wade deeper and deeper until we find ourselves “waist deep in the Big Muddy”
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Not everyone is unwilling to accept the fact they they fell for a snake oil sales job:
Over 500 comments, the vast majority against the misuse and over-use of tests.
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“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won’t come in.”
― Isaac Asimov
You anti-reformers should take Asimov’s advise, then maybe you’ll come to the realization that the leaders of the anti-reform movement are the “bamboozlers” on this issue. From 2003-2009 I owned a business where I had regular contact with students, parents, substitute teachers, teachers, administrators, representatives of institutions that had to deal with the local school district, senior management of a regional school district funded non-profit corporation that provided professional training to teachers sent there from the regional school districts, etc. The main group of people that agreed with your point of view were “school district insiders”(including many only line influential teachers) in concert with the parents of children who were getting special treatment from the district. The only other group of people I met who were equally irrationally closed-minded on this issue were tea-party type republicans. I think it’s no coincidence that they’re the one other group other than teachers unions and their lackeys that take your point of view on this issue.
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And why doesn’t your Asimov quote pertain to the test-and-punish reform crowd? The entire movement is built on faulty assumptions.
You draw a rather broad conclusion based on some personal experiences that took place well before the Common Core federal testing regime was even put in place. Your argument and evidence are so misguided that you actually help to make our case. Thank you.
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NYS Teacher thanks for your great response to this probable troll. I felt actual physical pain by Socrates of NY attempt to misappropriate Asimov, who as a great teacher himself would be appalled at the current attacks on public education!
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@NYS Teacher
The entire anti-reformist movement is built on faulty assumptions.
I did not draw broad conclusions. As a private citizen when I research an issue some of the things I look at are who has the most to gain/lose if a certain point of view is adopted, who seems to be lying the most, and what am I seeing right in front of me in my own personal experiences. This is perfectly legitimate. Not only did my more traditional type research reveal that the anti-reform crowd is wrong, but they lose on the other 3 criteria I mentioned too. The anti-reform crowd is nothing more than a bunch of thugs guarding their turf.
Incidentally, until I opened my business Education Reform was not one of the issues I was most interested in. I’m a life-long Democrat and probably will never vote for a republican again in my life.
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@Mike Barrett,
Huh? Have you actually read any Asimov? I suggest you start with “I, Robot”. I can almost guarantee you Asimov would be appalled by the current state of k-12 teaching and the techno phobia of the anti-reform k-12 educational establishment.
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I’ve read Asimov. You’re just wrong.
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We have had many privatizers who refer to themselves as Democrats trolling here before and it’s possible for all of them to “never vote for a republican again,” since the Democratic party long ago turned hard right and free market neoliberalism, which originated in the GOP, now dominates there as well. The trolls all speak from the same script, too, so there is nothing new here. A lot of us have learned that it’s usually best to not feed the trolls.
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Are you open-minded, Socrates? From what I’ve seen, the main groups of people who share the general philosophy of this blog are parents and students. With regards to close-mindedness, I’m not sure anyone has demonstrated this more than the likes of Rhee, Duncan, and Cuomo.
From your post, I’m not sure which aspect of the “anti-Reform” movement you take such issue with. The view of overtesting? The view of overreliance upon tests to rank schools, students, and teachers? The view that too much attention is being placed on certain subjects at the expense of others? The view that too much money is being devoted to testing and test-related technology with very little — if any — demonstrated benefit to students and teachers? The view that policy leaders are being directed by loud, wealthy, and influential voices from outside the system (and incredibly low accountability in the event their ideas fail) with little — if any — regard for the thoughts of those actually working within the system?
Anti-Reform doesn’t equate to anti-improvement, and there are numerous legitimate issues to discuss. The typical Reformer sees no room for discussion and little willingness to admit even obvious situations where they have been shown to be wrong.
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You are mischaracterzing the anti-reform movement. I oppose their actions that attempt to: Stop any testing that would help identify non-performing schools and teachers? Stop the use of any objective cost effective ways to help identify non-performing schools and teachers or to help identify in a timely fashion any students that are falling behind; Stop changes to standards that will assist in the preparation of students for modern life(since teachers just want to teach what THEY want to teach); Stop the movement of the teaching profession into the 21st century; Stop anybody from opposing their total control of their turf. The days where unholy alliances of corrupt politicians, influential teachers (local teachers unions), and the activist families with kids still in school are in effect calling all the shots on the local level (with help from rich and powerful multi-state unions.) It makes me want to vomit.
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Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won’t come in.”
― Isaac Asimov
“Scrubbing Windows”
The Windows from Bill Gates
One really needs to scrub
Especially the States
Who have the Common Crud
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Right you are! Gates is truly a pane in the glass!
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“The entire anti-reformist movement is built on faulty assumptions. . . .I did not draw broad conclusions. As a private citizen when I research an issue . . . ”
Start with a new research project, Sr. Socrates, to understand why educational standards and standardized testing are so rife with error that any conclusions drawn from the results are COMPLETELY INVALID read and understand Noel Wilson’s never refuted nor rebutted 1997 “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700
Don’t stop with my very brief summary. Have at it and have fun!!!
Brief outline of Wilson’s “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” and some comments of mine. (updated 6/24/13 per Wilson email)
1. A description of a quality can only be partially quantified. Quantity is almost always a very small aspect of quality. It is illogical to judge/assess a whole category only by a part of the whole. The assessment is, by definition, lacking in the sense that “assessments are always of multidimensional qualities. To quantify them as unidimensional quantities (numbers or grades) is to perpetuate a fundamental logical error” (per Wilson). The teaching and learning process falls in the logical realm of aesthetics/qualities of human interactions. In attempting to quantify educational standards and standardized testing the descriptive information about said interactions is inadequate, insufficient and inferior to the point of invalidity and unacceptability.
2. A major epistemological mistake is that we attach, with great importance, the “score” of the student, not only onto the student but also, by extension, the teacher, school and district. Any description of a testing event is only a description of an interaction, that of the student and the testing device at a given time and place. The only correct logical thing that we can attempt to do is to describe that interaction (how accurately or not is a whole other story). That description cannot, by logical thought, be “assigned/attached” to the student as it cannot be a description of the student but the interaction. And this error is probably one of the most egregious “errors” that occur with standardized testing (and even the “grading” of students by a teacher).
3. Wilson identifies four “frames of reference” each with distinct assumptions (epistemological basis) about the assessment process from which the “assessor” views the interactions of the teaching and learning process: the Judge (think college professor who “knows” the students capabilities and grades them accordingly), the General Frame-think standardized testing that claims to have a “scientific” basis, the Specific Frame-think of learning by objective like computer based learning, getting a correct answer before moving on to the next screen, and the Responsive Frame-think of an apprenticeship in a trade or a medical residency program where the learner interacts with the “teacher” with constant feedback. Each category has its own sources of error and more error in the process is caused when the assessor confuses and conflates the categories.
4. Wilson elucidates the notion of “error”: “Error is predicated on a notion of perfection; to allocate error is to imply what is without error; to know error it is necessary to determine what is true. And what is true is determined by what we define as true, theoretically by the assumptions of our epistemology, practically by the events and non-events, the discourses and silences, the world of surfaces and their interactions and interpretations; in short, the practices that permeate the field. . . Error is the uncertainty dimension of the statement; error is the band within which chaos reigns, in which anything can happen. Error comprises all of those eventful circumstances which make the assessment statement less than perfectly precise, the measure less than perfectly accurate, the rank order less than perfectly stable, the standard and its measurement less than absolute, and the communication of its truth less than impeccable.”
In other word all the logical errors involved in the process render any conclusions invalid.
5. The test makers/psychometricians, through all sorts of mathematical machinations attempt to “prove” that these tests (based on standards) are valid-errorless or supposedly at least with minimal error [they aren’t]. Wilson turns the concept of validity on its head and focuses on just how invalid the machinations and the test and results are. He is an advocate for the test taker not the test maker. In doing so he identifies thirteen sources of “error”, any one of which renders the test making/giving/disseminating of results invalid. And a basic logical premise is that once something is shown to be invalid it is just that, invalid, and no amount of “fudging” by the psychometricians/test makers can alleviate that invalidity.
6. Having shown the invalidity, and therefore the unreliability, of the whole process Wilson concludes, rightly so, that any result/information gleaned from the process is “vain and illusory”. In other words start with an invalidity, end with an invalidity (except by sheer chance every once in a while, like a blind and anosmic squirrel who finds the occasional acorn, a result may be “true”) or to put in more mundane terms crap in-crap out.
7. And so what does this all mean? I’ll let Wilson have the second to last word: “So what does a test measure in our world? It measures what the person with the power to pay for the test says it measures. And the person who sets the test will name the test what the person who pays for the test wants the test to be named.”
In other words it attempts to measure “’something’ and we can specify some of the ‘errors’ in that ‘something’ but still don’t know [precisely] what the ‘something’ is.” The whole process harms many students as the social rewards for some are not available to others who “don’t make the grade (sic)” Should American public education have the function of sorting and separating students so that some may receive greater benefits than others, especially considering that the sorting and separating devices, educational standards and standardized testing, are so flawed not only in concept but in execution?
My answer is NO!!!!!
One final note with Wilson channeling Foucault and his concept of subjectivization:
“So the mark [grade/test score] becomes part of the story about yourself and with sufficient repetitions becomes true: true because those who know, those in authority, say it is true; true because the society in which you live legitimates this authority; true because your cultural habitus makes it difficult for you to perceive, conceive and integrate those aspects of your experience that contradict the story; true because in acting out your story, which now includes the mark and its meaning, the social truth that created it is confirmed; true because if your mark is high you are consistently rewarded, so that your voice becomes a voice of authority in the power-knowledge discourses that reproduce the structure that helped to produce you; true because if your mark is low your voice becomes muted and confirms your lower position in the social hierarchy; true finally because that success or failure confirms that mark that implicitly predicted the now self evident consequences. And so the circle is complete.”
In other words students “internalize” what those “marks” (grades/test scores) mean, and since the vast majority of the students have not developed the mental skills to counteract what the “authorities” say, they accept as “natural and normal” that “story/description” of them. Although paradoxical in a sense, the “I’m an “A” student” is almost as harmful as “I’m an ‘F’ student” in hindering students becoming independent, critical and free thinkers. And having independent, critical and free thinkers is a threat to the current socio-economic structure of society.
By Duane E. Swacker
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Please put links to professional journals, not amateurish works on vanity web sites.
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Others have responded to your lack of knowledge of, your ignorance of and/or, perhaps, your willful disregard for knowledgeable and veritable (look it up if you don’t know the meaning of it) writings
Please critique the work and then I will respond. I’ve been looking for a cogent (look it up if you don’t know what it means) critique of his work but haven’t seen any nor any reference to such a critique.
Have at it and have fun in helping me find a convincing, compelling, strong, forceful, powerful, potent, weighty, impactful, effective, valid, sound, plausible, telling, impressive, persuasive, eloquent, credible, influential conclusive, authoritative rebuttal or refutation.
logical, reasoned, rational, reasonable, lucid, coherent, clear critique.
I await your reply but not while holding my breath.
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A great quote that explains a lot regarding trickle down, taxes are bad, etc. Pat
>
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“Reformboozlers”
Cloaked in a “science” mantle
With “data driven” form
A pseudo-science candle
Bamboozlers of reform
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I learned from reading Garrison Keillor’s Writer’s Almanac that yesterday was Carl Sagan’s birthday. He would have been 80. Another great teacher and human being who left us too soon.
In today’s Writer’s Almanac I learned that it was Oliver Goldsmith’s birthday and Garrison offered up this quote which I think is also apropos:
“Every absurdity has a champion to defend it”.
Feel free to plug in your favorite absurdity, whether it’s teacher tenure violates civil rights, school choice is the civil rights issue of our times, bad teachers can’t be removed, cyber schools are schools, parent triggers improve education – whatever you want. Each unfortunately has its champions intent on bamboozling the rest of us.
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Some good news out of Pennsylvania, following on Tom Wolf’s election. The Education Law Center and parents and districts around the state filed a lawsuit against the Governor, legislature and Pa. DOE, demanding full and fair funding of the public schools as mandated by the state constitution.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/school_files/Districts-parents-sue-Pa-over-education-funding.html
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I think we opened ourselves up to be bamboozled when we switched the language of our school mission statements to contain words like “stakeholders,” “21st Century Skills,” “Global Economy,” and when we rolled over for “turnaround schools.”
We created a mindset that enabled bamboozling even if we were just complying with a federal law. Our language reflected that we were simply compliant; nothing more, nothing less.
And now that’s our only choice in the choice era.
Until we invent new ideas that will take off. And we will.
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To Socrates of NY
November 10, 2014 at 6:44 pm
Please slow down. Please DO NOT confuse the meaning of words.
What makes you to vomit, such as:
“…The days where unholy alliances of corrupt politicians, influential teachers (local teachers unions), and the activist families with kids still in school are in effect calling all the shots on the local level (with help from rich and powerful multi-state unions.)…”
Are you implying the Verga’s case, and all Charters school’s policy/regulation?
“…I oppose their actions that attempt to:
Stop any testing that would help identify non-performing schools and teachers?
Stop the use of any objective cost effective ways to help identify non-performing schools and teachers or to help identify in a timely fashion any students that are falling behind;
Stop changes to standards that will assist in the preparation of students for modern life(since teachers just want to teach what THEY want to teach);
Stop the movement of the teaching profession into the 21st century;
Stop anybody from opposing their total control of their turf.”
Do you really read what you have written the above? What kind of modern life for the learners and teacher into the 21st century? Is it a robotic submission without question to all commands by the power of money from 1% prestige class who abuses their own political corruption and their criminal alliance to rob the 99% public fund from tax payers?
Please re-examine your own body parts’ functions in order to understand how school performs. There are body, mind and spirit interact harmoniously. We need to improve all parts of the body simultaneously. We need to eat, to work, to play and to rest properly in order to live a meaningful life. School’s curriculum needs to have physical education, literature, languages, music and stem (science, technology, engineering, and math) in order to provide students with multitude aspects of learning. So, we, human beings continuously explore the joy of learning into our golden age.
Testing is not and never will be the instrument to measure human knowledge. Testing is however, ” … measures what the person with the power to pay for the test says it measures. And the person who sets the test will name the test what the person who pays for the test wants the test to be named.”, according to Wilson, extracted by Duane E. Swackers. (see the above post at Duane Swacker November 10, 2014 at 8:05 pm, as per Noel Wilson’s never refuted nor rebutted 1997 “Educational Standards and the Problem of Error” found at: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/577/700). Back2basic
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Your comments are all wrong, irrelevant, or just plain silly. For example that article you site is in an open access on-line journal by somebody from Flinders University of South Australia. I looked the author up on their faculty list and he’s not on it. Give me a break. If you are actually interested in the topic I suggest “Measuring Up: What Educational Testing Really Tells Us” by Daniel Koretz” of Harvard. The issue of testing is very complex, and certainly can be misused, but in many areas it’s the only cost effective way of measuring where we’re at and pointing us in the direction of further investigation. Teachers test their students all the time, and they don’t let those students cite articles by obscure authors in obscure journal to justify nullifying the results of those tests. When it comes to their effectiveness, however, they basically want us to accept their judgments about themselves. “Trust me, I’m really good. It’s impossible for you to measure how good I am, so just hand me the money and go away.”
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Many actual educators know very well that EPAA is a well respected peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Australian authors are not from an “obscure” third world country, and America needs to pull its head from its arse long enough to learn something from researchers in other countries.
Ignore the self-serving BS from the privatization promoter, folks!
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Well, Mr. Socrates, allow me to give you another reading by that “obscure author” from downunder who’s not afraid to identify himself as you are. “A Little Less than Valid: An Essay Review” of the testing bible found at: http://www.edrev.info/essays/v10n5.pdf
Read what I have suggested and then email me to point out what you perceive to be the flaws in Wilson’s logic and argument. Not being afraid to identify myself nor afraid of giving out how to contact me: dswacker@centurytel.net .
I’ll be happy to help you understand and discuss the two Wilson works.
Duane
P.S. Condemning/deprecating the fine gentleman who is Noel Wilson without reading his works seems just a tad ‘mal educado’-I’m sure your mom and dad attempted to teach you better than that.
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Ya know, Duane, when I read the stuff this Socrates troll has pushed on this serious site where truth is the MISSION, I feel that the media has won. The utter ignorance that the posts shows is more that I can bear, knowing why I know about the truth.
You are very kind to even engage with him, but you low what Thomas Paine said
argue with renouncer of reason.jpg
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Hee, hee.
Iloved your comment: “I’ll be happy to help you understand and discuss the two Wilson works.”
Where were you when I need someone to help me understand complex works.
Boy is that person out of his (her?) depth.
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Duane and Susan, The book by Koretz that “Socrates” referred to probably scored points for him just because Koretz is a Harvard professor, because the the book is for laymen, not academics, unlike Wilson’s scholarly article in EPAA.
Koretz actually described repeatedly how test scores reflect SES and he also delineated out-of-school factors impacting student achievement. He discussed the flaws of standardized tests, such as regarding standard error of measurement, sampling errors, and VAM. While Koretz did not advocate dumping tests altogether, he did not blame teachers. My guess is that the scapegoating of teachers by “Socrates” is probably based on other influences, selective reading and confirmation bias.
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@Susan,
Wilson’s article is an amateurish work on a vanity web site. Please reference articles that are well done and/or written by a professional.
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“Out of his league” is right! He is not an educated consumer of information and what he reads he interprets according to his own biases.
Most importantly, he has no clue what a peer-reviewed scholarly journal is. EPAA is no “vanity website.” It was one of the very first peer-reviewed scholarly journals available online in the early 90s. On their website, there is a list of scholars from different universities who are on the current editorial board, some info about the peer-review process, as well as the name of the publisher, which is the Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College at Arizona State University.
People who have a problem with state universities and believe that Harvard can do no wrong are just elitists. They are also probably unfamiliar with Harvard’s problems, such as with cheating and grade inflation: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-12-04/harvard-median-grade-of-a-gets-f-in-responsibility-from-teacher
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Sorry, meant “depth,” though “league” applies as well.
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Here is the list of scholars on the English Language Board of the EPAA Editorial Team –which happens to include noted professors from both state and private universities:
http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/about/editorialTeam
English Language Board
Jessica Allen, University of Colorado
Dr. Gary Anderson, New York University, United States
Angela Arzubiaga, Arizona State University, United States
Michael W. Apple, University of Wisconsin Madison, United States
David C. Berliner, Arizona State University, United States
Henry Braun, Boston College, United States
Wendy C Chi, (Member of the New Scholars Board) University of Colorado, Boulder, United States
Casey Cobb, University of Connecticut, United States
Arnold Danzig, San Jose State University, United States
Antonia Darder, Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, United States
Linda Darling-Hammond, Stanford University, United States
Chad Joseph dEntremont, Teachers College, Columbia University
John Diamond, Harvard University, United States
Amy Garrett Dikkers, University of North Carolina at Wilmington, United States
Sherman Dorn, Arizona State University, United States
Melissa Lynn Freeman, (Member of the New Scholars Board) MLF Consulting, United States
Gene V Glass, Arizona State University, United States
Ron Glass, University of California, Santa Cruz, United States
Harvey Goldstein, Bristol University, United Kingdom
Dr. Jacob P. K. Gross, University of Louisville
Eric M. Haas, WestEd
Kimberly Joy Howard, (Member of the New Scholars Board) University of South Carolina, United States
Aimee Howley, Ohio University, United States
Steve Klees, University of Maryland, United States
Jaekyung Lee, SUNY Buffalo, United States
Christopher Lubienski, University of Illinois
Sarah Lubienski, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, United States
Maria Martinez-Cosio, University of Texas at Arlington, United States
William Mathis, Rutland Northeast Supervisory Union, United States
Tristan McCowan, Institute of Education, London, United Kingdom
Michele S. Moses, University of Colorado, United States
Julianne Moss, Deakin University, Australia
Sharon Nichols, University of Texas-San Antonio, United States
João Paraskeva, University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth
Susan L. Robertson, Bristol University
A.G. Rud, Washington State University, United States
Janelle Scott, University of California, Berkeley, United States
Kimberly Scott, Arizona State University, United States
Dorothy Shipps, Baruch College/CUNY, United States
Noah Sobe, United States
Maria Teresa Tatto, Michigan State University
Tina Trujillo, University of California-Berkeley
Larisa Warhol, University of Connecticut
John M. Weathers, University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, United States
Kevin G. Welner, University of Colorado Boulder, United States
Ed Wiley, University of Colorado, United States
Terrence G. Wiley, Arizona State University, United States
John Willinsky, Stanford University, United States
Kyo Yamashiro, Los Angeles Education Research Institute, United States
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Don’t you just love adults that are incapable of learning, due to their personal biases and misconceptions, who trash teachers for not being a more powerful influence than poverty, including hunger and homelessness, in the lives of poor children?
As we have seen before, the attitude and scorn for educators in these posts is typical of non-educator “reformers” who push privatization, regardless of charter school profiteering and all the scams. They usually have no appreciation for qualitative research and evaluation, only taut quantitative methods and don’t know that those who study research today typically learn both methods. They only value what can be reduced to a number, but even then, they often have to rig the stats to get them to work in their favor, such as the way charters rid their schools of the most challenging students in order to make it look like their test scores are high.
Genuine educators know that most colleges only require that doctoral dissertations be published in services like UMI, not in peer-reviewed scholarly journals –and only truly exceptional dissertations are published there.
Had “Socrates” been able to overcome his personal prejudices and bothered to search the website of the Education Policy Analysis Archives (EPAA), he would have seen that there are many articles published in EPAA which were authored by people from Harvard.
In fact, the Harvard Gradute School of Educatrion even lists EPAA on its “Websites for Educators” page under “Education Administration and Policy” located here: http://www.gse.harvard.edu/library/educator-resources
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I have never been employed as a public school teacher, nor have I ever belonged to a teachers’ union, but I spend a lot of time advocating for public education and teachers in their plight against the bamboozling by politicians, their minions. their billionaire backers and irrational nay-saying hate mongers. Some people just have it in for teachers and unions and their arguments are truly laughable, such as those proffered by “Socrates of NY.”
Teaching is a profession that is dominated by educated women who desire to make a difference in the lives of children, in jobs that provide comparatively low pay and garner no prestige and very little respect in our society. Reformsters are not educators, but they claim to know more than experts in the field and many of them have managed to insert themselves into high paying, powerful positions, including Arne Duncan. It was Duncan, not actual educators, who was the one who had a list of wealthy and influential people who were earmarked for special treatment, such as suburban resident, Republican billionaire and governor-elect Bruce Rauner, when he called Arne and paid $250K to get his daughter into a selective enrollment Chicago Public School.
The muscle talk about teachers being thugs, as if these caring women were teamsters, is a tired and silly joke. Fortunately, the parent and community support that striking teachers in Chicago received, as well as the public demonstrations against the closing of a massive number of neighborhood schools, in order to replace them with charters, shows that increasing numbers of the population get that they are being bamboozled by those involved in corporate education “reform” –and they don’t like it at all. If the rest of the state had been subjected to the same bamboozling as Chicago and voted the way residents in Cook County did, Rauner would not have been elected last week.
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@Chi-town,
Why don’t you try advocating for the students for a change. See how you feel when you come across a group of students stuck in a class with a teacher who cannot or will not teach, then find out those poor kids have no real options other than to take it, or get home-schooled until the year is up.
The children and the tax payers are the victims here, not teachers unions.
You have mischaracterized the Chicago Public Schools strike.
The number of charter schools has continued to rise in Chicago and elsewhere in the country. The total waiting list to enter charter schools nationwide is growing even faster than the number of charter schools. Surveys of the satisfaction of charter school students and their parents is significantly higher than for traditional public schools.
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It was obvious from the outset that you are a troll with an agenda, since advocating for kids is my day job. I will not waste my time reading or responding to your mean spirited and off target posts.
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What a crock from privatization promoter “Socrates of NY,” a dilettante who feigns expertise and has no clue about Chicago, with its “47% of Charter Schools Under-enrolled”
http://ilraiseyourhand.org/content/data-analysis-reveals-nearly-11000-empty-seats-47-charter-schools-under-enrolled
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Victorino Verboten,
I looked at your referenced link and found that the figures quoted are incorrect(they were compiled by a “parent”). The 11,000 seat figure is the total for all charter schools whose utilization status is underutilized and that there are only 29 of 128 charter schools listed as underutilized. If you look at the entire list you’ll notice that a much small percentage of traditional schools are classified as having efficient utilization than charter schools. There is still a large and growing waiting list to get into Chicago charter schools.
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“Socrates” has sunk to a new low, trashing a researcher https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeannemarieolson for being “a parent” and making assertions about her research without providing any links to sources.
Also, if he was familiar with Chicago, he would have known that CPS closed 50 neighborhood schools and many of them were in adjacent communities, so that there are no more neighborhood schools left in those areas now. This means that a lot of parents who want their kids to attend schools close to home have no choice EXCEPT charter schools, so ultimately that enrollment is bound to increase. However, as a result of this strategic business plan from a charter loving administration, much like New Yorkers, Chicagoans are very likely to vote the mayor out of office and choose someone who will support public education instead of privatization.
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Look, I am new to this site, barely 3 months, but I know Diane for over a decade now.
This is her teacher’s room,and a place for people who really wish to know what is going on in public education, since the national narrative is controlled by the billionaires who own the media and the legislators , governors and president… because they pay for their elections.
I also write at Oped news, which is open to all commentary. That said, at that site, trolls (people who thrive on listening to their own voice blabber their judgements and beliefs) try to wreck serious conversations… they do not last long, because the publisher of this NEWS SITE, demands links to everything, and opinion gets short shrift in the face of reality.
Diane’s site is unique as a part news and part social network for educators to connect.
I have seen five trolls enter the conversation, and I have witnessed the time spent arguing with them, so , as Lloyd explains, their perceptions do not take on the reality of truth by remaining unopposed.
I say, ignore them. I feel sorry for them, if the things they say here are what they believe, but I also think that they come here to divert attention from important issues. This month Socrates, Anne, Drew and a few others have put forward more than mere opinions…theya re making arguments that are pure fiction.
There real evil is the destruction that is being wrought on public education by distracting the public from what the authentic professional knows MUST BE IN PLACE for LEARNING TO TAKE PLACE.
NOTICE, that the distractors do not leave their real names… they are cowards and egotists who need attention… do not give it to them.
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We have learned from what happened with DeBlasio and Cuomo, so we will choose a mayor who won’t be intimidated by a neoliberal governor who prefers privatizers over families who want well resourced neighborhood public schools.
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There are good reasons to not trust everything that CPS reports, including the underutilization of neighborhood schools:
“Underutilized CPS Elem Schools Overestimated by 24% Overcrowding Higher than Reported”
http://ilraiseyourhand.org/content/apples-apples-release-underutilized-cps-elem-schools-overestimated-24-overcrowding-higher-re
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So we’re supposed to just accept the research critique of “Socrates” because he says so, huh, even though he provided no evidence? Folks, don’t fall for the personal opinions of someone who cannot even recognize a scholarly journal when he sees one. College students have been taught about peer-reviewed scholarly journals beginning in their first semester at every school where I have taught for the past two decades. It’s alarming that someone who is trying to pass themselves off as a credible judge of K12 education would have no clue about this.
And BTW, that “amateurish work on a vanity web site” was the author’s doctoral dissertation. Peer-reviewed scholarly journals like EPAA are very discriminating and don’t publish just any old paper.
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What a bunch of nonsense you people are spewing. You rarely provide any links at all, but when you do you provide links to a “grassroots” organization dedicated to fighting charters whose primary research appears to be a “parent” (that’s their description) with no expertise in that type of data analysis then, or to an amateurish aricle on an online “vanity journal”(EPAA is where doctoral candidates go who need to publish but can’t get published in real journals). You do this but except me to provide “evidence” each and every time I make a statement, even when that statement is in response to somebody you agree with who didn’t provide any “evidence”. Forget it, life doesn’t work that way. In this case however, I will provide links since I just found them yesterday.
http://ilraiseyourhand.org/content/data-analysis-reveals-nearly-11000-empty-seats-47-charter-schools-under-enrolled
http://cpsapples2apples.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/a-history-of-cps-enrollment-1999-2014-rough-draft/
ACTUAL DATA SET
you have to reset the filters to see the whole data set. I then added a Governance filter of “charter” and a Space Used Status of “UNDERUTILIZED”
I’I’m done with you people. As a group you’re worse than the t-party and other wing-nut types I have to deal with on some other venues I comment in. Dr. Ravitch, you should be ashamed of yourself. Is this what you want to be remembered for? You’re even older than I am but there may still be time for you to right your course and undo some of the damage you’ve done. Believe me, you are harming the most powerless group in our society – poor and minority children.
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Socrates,
If you had been reading this blog for the past year, you would have seen many links about charter frauds, documented by states, the FBI, and respected journalists. Here is the latest: https://dianeravitch.net/2014/11/04/john-merrow-baker-mitchell-hits-the-charter-jackpot/
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“worse than the t-party” from professed Democrats is code for “liberal,” which is a dirty word in the party now, as Rahm Emanuel demonstrated when he referred to liberals as “f*cking retarted” when they wanted to confront conservative Democrats who were against ObamaCare.
Yep, I am a genuine progressive who will fight to the end against profiteering and I will never stop advocating for better resourced neighborhood public schools. I will do all that I can so that charter schools, especially the military style charters with drill sergeant TFA temps, are not the only choice of school close to home for low-income families of color, in my city and elsewhere.
Good riddance to another know-nothing know-it-all! (Hope you wake up before free market education in this country completely mirrors GOP neoliberal Milton Friedman’s accomplishment of a two-tier education system in the now highly stratified country of Chile.)
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@dianeravitch,
Weak diane, really weak
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/04/07/Texas-School-District-Scandals-Continue-to-Rattle-the-State
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-01-03/news/ct-chicago-public-schools-inspector-general-20140103_1_new-principal-school-employee-cps
http://www.chicago-bureau.org/stunning-cases-of-fraud-false-enrollment-data-embezzlement-found-in-cps-report/
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Two-indicted-in-4-million-BISD-embezzlement-case-5125410.php
http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/2014/09/13/texas-woman-sentenced-in-school-embezzlement-case/15587133/
http://www.wbez.org/news/still-more-questions-case-deceased-cps-worker-who-stole-school-funds-109515
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/san-francisco-schools-embezzlement-scheme_n_3274916.html
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/04/07/Texas-School-District-Scandals-Continue-to-Rattle-the-State
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/judith-oakes-faces-embezzlement-charges-in-california-school-lunch-money-case/
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/04/01/former-plano-isd-employee-embezzled-millions-from-district/
http://www.technology-insight.com/news/accounts-payable-analysis/arizona-school-accounting-services-manager-sentenced-in-embezzlement-case.aspx
I could have gone all night linking news stories about embezzlement and fraud in public schools.
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Socrates, did the embezzlers in public schools steal millions, comparable to the legal graft in charters? You note that they got caught, indicted, and where guilty, convicted. NO ONE in the charter sector will be indicted or jailed for their siphoning millions of dollars from the public. That’s a big difference. Welcome to the blog! You are now our leading troll. Are you a sock puppet too?
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HEE, HEE, LOVE IT, DIANE… NOW THAT HARLAN IS GONE.
But I still do not see why anyone wastes precious time to engage with sockit-to-us. Ignore him, and I am sure it is a guy, an old one with nothing to do and no one to talk to, because no one wants to talk with a verbal bully.
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@dianeratvich,
Once again Diane, weak, very weak. By the way, I certainly fit the definition of troll far less than many of the anti-reform commenters here. I will, however, give you credit for posting my comments. Many wing-nut blogs I comment on just delete my comments, or refuse to post them, once they realize I’m not one of the choir. Why would you think I’m a sock puppet? That doesn’t seem to really make any sense here. Sock puppets generally have one main comment name then another comment name telling the first name how smart and wonderful they are, and nobody seems to be doing that here.
In any case, the corruption documented in my leaks is in the many of millions of dollars, and probably is far less than 1% of the total based on how many hits I got on my search and how many of those hits I looked at. Did you even bother to look at them? As far as charter corruption goes did you even make any attempt to see if any people associated with charters have been indicted and/or convicted? Just do an internet search on “charter indicted” or something similar.
As far as “legal graph” goes that’s actually probably the root cause of the mess we’re in, particularly in cities with a lot of poor and minority children, and in fact is the root cause of the rise of charters in those communities. In most places more than half the amount of revenue raised and spent on the local level is spent on k-12 education which is controlled by school boards that generally are elected in off year election. In more affluent communities where most parents are willing and able to advocate successfully on behalf of their children their is keen interest in these off year elections and relatively close oversight of the schools. In less well-to-do communities their tends to be little participation in these off-year elections and little capability of poorer parents to advocate on behalf of their children. In these communities an unholy alliance tend to develop between the teachers unions. the parents of middle class children, corrupt politicians, and corrupt vendors and contractors. It’s like pigs to the troth and legal and illegal graph goes rampant, but it’s the legal graph that’s probably the most harmful. Taking money that should have been spent on poor kids and spending it on rich kids may not be illegal but it certainly is immoral The people who are hurt the most by this unholy alliance are these poor and minority children. Money that should have been going towards helping these kids went straight into the pockets of the unholy alliance. This corrupt alliance is going nuts because money(or the equivalent) that used to go straight into their pockets is now going to the charter schools and these poor and minority children. Tough luck for the corrupt alliance.
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“Is Administration Leaner in Charter Schools?”
The bottom is line, no. And they are reflective of the inequitable distribution of wealth that we see in corporations, where executives are paid massively more than what frontline workers earn.
“charter schools have advanced a top-heavy reallocation of resources that mirrors the distributional shifts unfolding so dramatically over recent decades in the U.S. private sector.”
Click to access OP201.pdf
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Here is a stunning report that was published last month,
“Charter Schools in Chicago: No Model for Education Reform”
Click to access Chicago-Charters-FINAL.pdf
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From this summer, “Tribune* poll: Voters give Emanuel low marks on his school policies”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-rahm-emanuel-education-met-20140814-story.html#page=1
(*The Trib has long been a conservative newspaper and they are staunch supporters of free market policies, including charter schools, so their reports are often skewed.)
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EduShyster investigated education in Chicago recently and posted several insightful pieces, such as this:
“The Chicago Charter Blues”
http://edushyster.com/?p=5846#more-5846
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“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
Finally, someone provides an explanation for Randi Weingarten’s continued longevity in the face of endless stream of betrayals!
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To Socrates of NY
Although I completely agree with Chi-Town Res’ reply to you, I offer you the four guiding principles as follows:
Please consciously remember four guiding principles when we deal with manipulative people:
DO NOT quickly believe in the saying from:
1. People with authority, scientific knowledge, and wealth (due to their own gain)
2. People with old age, claimed to be a Wise-man (due to his lust for control and power)
3. Any written old testaments (due to it is possibly fake)
4. Any mystery, unfounded truth, and lack of proof of science (due to rumour or legendary).
Most of all, any short cut or promise lack of democratic and transparent process which bribes all authorities to guarantee general public to attain a quick success is simply intentional BAD trap.
According to the first principle, your “con artist” character is shown in your written sentence
“Trust me, I’m really good. It’s impossible for you to measure how good I am, so just hand me the money and go away.”
I will not spend my valuable time to explain to you about the importance of American public Education, because there are more than enough excellent posts in this Website for you to research.
As you know, con artists and crooks abuse, manipulate, bribe, set a trap and twist NAIVE, TRUSTING, GREEDY and AMATEUR academic/governmental leaders to do whatever they intention to achieve. That is a fact of life. You are on the way to mimic but you did not succeed within this website.
Money never brings you a peace of mind before your breath is taken away in facing off to the DEATH. You are still young and still have enough time to do some good deed for your fellow beings.
If you are certain in what you believe, try your best to convince Bill Gate and the like, and their followers, like you to operate their own schools with hundred of million dollars to help STUDENTS as per your description. Therefore, please leave all conscientious teaching profession and average middle income class’ students ALONE.
1O years from now, you will see the difference it makes between your dream/wishful school and our solid foundation in American Public School. Back2basic
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I think we should just leave Sophist of NY alone. That is the most whacky, clueless, troll I have ever seen online. Most troll I saw are behaving like clowns; but they don’t have a temper tantrum like him. Well deserve the King of Troll Award 2014.
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I’ve noticed that whenever I ask posters of Sockrates of NY ilk for concrete rebuttals/refutations of Wilson’s work they have never yet responded. I give them that chance to have a dialogue and after that, well, I usually do not engage them much more.
(And Susan, I don’t consider HU in that category at all as I’ve had some good educational discussions with him. He does like to jab and poke, much like I do, but I don’t remember any of it being vicious. I hope that he is okay and that something hasn’t befallen him. Let me know HU, I hope all is well with you.)
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Well, I have only been here for a few months, and I bow to your understanding. I don’t know you, but I think you are a very fine person, not merely a brilliant one.
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This is not just for education in the US. It applies to social problems in this country and around the world today. It’s very depressing.
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“What Democrats must do now to fill judicial vacancies before Republicans take over the Senate” and a petition are located here: http://act.credoaction.com/sign/confirm_judges
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