Lindsay Wagner of NC Policy Watch reports that North Carolina law may permit home schools to qualify for public funding.
Nonpublic schools in North Carolina will have little or no supervision over their standards or academic performance.
Wagner writes:
“The school voucher program is intended for use at private schools only. But thanks to weak laws and a lack of capacity to ensure compliance, anyone who opens a school in their home may be able to get public money—and face little in the way of accountability.
“No academic standards required in NC voucher program
“Families in North Carolina will be able to participate in the Opportunity Scholarships program beginning with the 2014-15 academic school year.
“The new school voucher system that the General Assembly passed into law last July will provide low-income students currently enrolled in public schools with up to $4,200 annually to use at state-recognized private schools (the list of endorsed schools is viewable here).
“Lawmakers pushed for school vouchers, arguing that North Carolina’s public schools are failing its low-income and minority students and that families should have the choice—at the expense of taxpayers— to send their students to private schools as an alternative. The voucher program will siphon $10 million dollars away from the public school system in its first year, and is expected to expand in the future.
“School voucher programs have been on the rise since Milwaukee implemented them in 1990, with 13 states and the District of Columbia implementing their own voucher programs since that time.
“Private schools that receive school vouchers are typically subject to few regulatory requirements and are free to create their own standards. While some private schools hold themselves to high quality standards for their teachers and curricula, they are often not legally required to do so.
“Milwaukee has become known for rampant fraud and abuse of its voucher program —and its poor educational outcomes. The founder and principal of Milwaukee’s Mandella School of Science and Math used taxpayer funds to purchase his own Mercedes, and a recent study concluded that Milwaukee students participating in the voucher program performed significantly worse in both reading and math than students in the Milwaukee public school system.
“North Carolina law requires nothing in the way of academic standards, curricula or accountability measures for its non-public schools.”
– See more at: http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2013/12/12/taxpayer-funds-may-be-funneled-to-home-schools-through-school-vouchers/#sthash.uiR3M0rJ.dpuf
Diane Ravitch's blog 
What a shame!!! How heartbreaking for those kids. I knew NC was getting really bad which is why we left but I had no idea it was that bad. So, how is the Common Core suupose to work down there if it can’t even function well in NY? I am so sorry to hear that the state is sinking deeper into the abyss. It doesn’t sound like there are any good options for kids in that state. I was so desperate at the end I was home schooling my son just that he did not have to attend the public school two months before we left and moved to a northern state. I am sorry for those kids!!!
Well, we have this thing called elections.
Nothing is permanent.
This too shall pass.
Who are you planning to vote for? Who has promised to undo this mess?
Dienne–
there are people. Don’t worry.
If that’s true in your neck of the woods, I’m sure glad to hear it. There certainly aren’t people here. Our choices for governor next year are probably going to be Quallas, er, I mean, Quinn/Vallas or gadzillionaire Bruce Rauner. No one has stepped up to challenge Rahmbo in Chicago yet either.
I honestly don’t think NC voters realized what ALEC would bring to the table. I don’t think most had ever heard of it. McCrory was a very different mayor of Charlotte than he has been as governor so far. I don’t think people will be wild about their tax dollars funding various religious schooling pursuits. I mean, we are the Bible belt but we each like our own variety of Biblical interpretation and paying for other people’s doesn’t set right with most, I don’t think. The changes have all come about so quickly and somewhat surreptitiously (from CCSS and RttT to the new laws the G.A. passed in our budget). People are looking for moderate leadership.
Elections of pious word clouds, are used to finesse the issue of
domination. Useful idiots, taken in by political labeling, that
increases their cognitive dissonance and political stupor, have
elected some gems of projected dynamism.
“NAFTA needed a foundation in order to become a reality and previous presidents actions were part of the – methodical bricklaying in the demonizing organized labor. Good ole southern prez anti-union peanut man Carter set the stage for Ronnie Raygun, Voodoo Poppy Spook and Slick Willie. Without Carter’s federal intrusion into private sector collective bargaining that was patently unfair and of doubtful legality in the Chyrsler bailout and invoking the Taft-Hartley Act in an effort to crush a 1978 national coal strike; there wouldn’t have been a snowball’s chance in hell of sweatshop Ronnie Raygun taking out the air-traffic controllers.
These deliberate actions were the lynchpin in dismantling workers rights and in turn destroying middle-class income. Cost of living increases were replaced with APR compounded daily debt servitude disguised by nifty plastic “I’m a member cards!” The anti-FDR plan was set and the destruction of organized labor was promoted with the sing-a-long chant of cheaper goods. Unfortunately, in the rush for cheap goods, the American public’s’ cognitive dissonance did not equate cheap = cheap labor = destruction of the middle class. From there Spookie pursued anti-labor policies – and spearheaded pro-Nafta negotiations, Thus, he carried on the dismantling of the fairly new post-FDR & Eleanor pro-citizen American lifestyle back to elitist Corporatism. Lastly, there’s the Big Dog Wolf republican wearing roll-over democrat sheep clothing – Slick Willie who pushed through NAFTA. From there Dubya’s CAFTA and so on.” rps
“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day, but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery” Thomas Jefferson. Rights of British America, 1774 ME 1:193, Papers 1:125″
Calling, or labeling this a “Democracy”, that is influenced by
“Elections”, IS a strategy.
The results of this “Strategy” have provided the distribution of
resources, or the inequality of condition.
If “Democracy” relies on Equality, Fairness, and Truth, and (E/F/T)
are Trumped by Money, Democracy becomes Trumpery.
You are so right No Brick. Money is the motivator. It has really nothing to do with education. It seemed to me when we lived in NC education was not a top priority among parents as sports seemed to be the popular choice. There priorties are completely different than in other parts of the country. After all this I hope there thoughts change and they re-focus their attention on what is important. The children in NC will not be able to compete against kids from other states because the money put into education is not the same. That is sad for these kids. I do hope it changes.
The truth is, ed reformers know they can never adequately regulate all these “schools”.
You’d need a huge staff of regulators on the ground, there would have to be some sort of dedicated adjudicatory/due process method to deny funding and then probably an appeal process.
They never had any intention of regulating the voucher systems. We’d be plowing more public money into regulating the “non public” system than the “non public” system is spending on education. It was always a ridiculous premise.
Caution to Homeschoolers. You take their money THEY call the tune. Recall NO Child left behind? They meant it then. They mean it now.
When did we all start using the term “non public” schools, BTW?
I noticed Mr. King in NY uses this term. Now the North Carolina state legislature does too?
These are private school vouchers. I know vouchers are not politically popular, generally. Is that why these schools were re-branded as “non public”?
that language was probably coached at an ALEC session or something, perhaps.
Why aren’t reformers coming down on these schemes? I was told the objective was “great schools!” Are these “great schools!”?
Has the objective now shifted to “choice” no matter the quality of the school, and if so, did they deceive the public when they said it was about “great schools!”
Would the public have gone along with publicly-funded “choice” as a rationale for ed reform? How about they start selling this honestly?
Everything written here is true. You should see some of the parents home schooling their children. Zero accountability.
Your right about that Amber. I have seen it first hand. Some crazy stuff too!!!
I am not in favor of this. However, I have always wondered why education funds can’t follow the child. It is not my fault that the current fad is to abandon decades (centuries? millennia?) of good practice and follow a radical, developmentally-inappropriate approach towards educating children. It is also not my fault that education resources, as public goods, are distributed unequally. So, I pay taxes and I pay tuition. Why is it right that society does not bear part of the cost of educating my children? It will certainly reap the rewards (or suffer the consequences) of what I have provided by myself. In many other countries, public schools get the most funds but private schools do get money from the state (and inspections as well). The idea is that the public has a responsibility to provide something to all of the members of the next generation.
Because the cost of a school is greater than the sum of its student numbers. It’s a community investment. When your kid goes to college do you figure up their share of your mortgage payment and give it to them? No. Likely not. Your payment stays the same whether they are there or not. Same thing with running a school, for some overhead. More can be done collectively with a pool of money then if it is splintered. Besides, the idea that every kid has a value of money that follows them is just not good policy. Education budgets are not comprised of child support-like payments. The per head figure is for equity purposes. This idea that it follows the kid is bad policy. Very bad policy. And I await a politician with the balls, quite frankly, to say that and live by it.
Leadership is not about how to splinter up collective pools of money to make citizens feel empowered. In fact, I think this type policy will prove disastrous and likely have unintended consequences we have not even considered.
You pay tuition as well you should. If you hire a body guard there should not be a portion of police force money allocated to you. That is not what taxes are for.
Talk about keeping taxes low. This choice business will drive them through the roof or we will have failed and unsustainable projects everywhere.
Typo than if. Not then if
Joanna
The marginal cost of a student attending a school is positive but likely less than the average variable cost. Your argument has more validity for small schools rather than large school systems. The larger the system, the marginal cost will approach the average variable cost.
Bernie. I think it’s still bad policy. But NC is non union and our schools are not huge. So what do I know. But this post is about NC.
Joanna:
NC Schools are larger than average for the US according to this somewhat dated report. Somebody may have more current data. You can see from the distribution of school sizes that many of the schools have 4 or more classes per grade which means that enough homeschoolers would potentially reduce the number of classes by one but with slightly larger classes.
Joanna, I see your point and it is not as if I entirely disagree with it. However, other countries do offer support to independent schools because their citizens attend them. That is reason enough.
What we are witnessing today is how little protection and voice parents have when the state educational system goes off the rails. Kindergarten prep? Testing and homework in kindergarten? Not teaching cursive handwriting? Art and recess cut back or nonexistent? Educational fads come and go but I am sure my grandmother, who attended Normal School, would never have dreamed that her great-granchildren would be asked to attend a school where handwriting, ample recess and playtime in Kindergarten aren’t fundamental.
It is not good policy to have a monopoly school system that can be so easily wrecked.
Which is why, Em, education has been a local and state responsibility. Allowing the feds to legislate education policy at the level they are now is, if not unconstitutional in fact, unconstitutional in spirit. In some ways the deform doctrine seems warped. They are pushing privatization as well as nationalization. I’m not sure how the two will mesh in the end. Pearson is not interested in short term ownership of the education market, so all these private educational venues that are not subject to their chicanery will have to be brought on board. H-m-m-m.
Well, 2old2tch if Pearson wants to make Montessori materials they can try. I say good luck turning a profit with that. 🙂
As to your point about privatization and nationalization, yes, deform gives the facade of democratic education but we’re headed in the exact opposite direction.
Emmy,
The money does not follow the child because it is not his money. Recall that families with no children pay school tax at the same rate as families with 4 children. The one child family does not necessarily pay less school tax than the large family.
Citizens with long grown and gone offspring as well as those with no children at all are chipping in to educate other peoples children. Should they then be able to place some requirements and have at least some over site on their contribution ( elected school boards for example)?
Can they expect some tangible ” reward” ( property value for example).
Now, if we as a country want to go down this road, expect a lot of folks to make a case for not paying school tax at all.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have stated it that way. I don’t mean it as literally as people are taking it and this is my fault. All I want to say is that our society has an obligation to educate all children as current and future members of our nation. So, for example, Finland has few independent schools but they are publicly financed. Other countries have different financing schemes for independent schools but there is still this assumed obligation to support the education of all children no matter where they are being educated.
The marketing language is interesting. Ed reformers re-branded charter schools “community schools” – I have no idea what ed reformers think public schools are, not “community schools”, apparently.
They’ve also rebranded private schools as “chartered nonpublic schools”.
The language changes are deceptive, and they’re also political. The intent is to break down the distinctions between “public” and “private”. If they thought these they could sell these policies honestly, using plain language, they would do that. Instead we get this careful marketing. I fully expect the US Secretary of Education to begin insisting that Catholic schools are ALSO “public schools”, as he has done with charters.
“In Ohio, the schools are labeled as chartered nonpublic schools. You probably refer to them as private schools (e.g., parochial, many Christian schools, other private schools — not to be confused with “community/charter schools”). “
They want votes. Remember that. They will slide agendas in because they think voters like it. But genuine leadership and vision sometimes says, “no. That is a short sighted decision and not in the best interest of the state.”
Gumption. Integrity. Vision. Leadership.
Woefully lacking in Raleigh right now. With all due respect. The General Assembly is short sighted and clearly not well read.
OY VEY! One wird: NUTS!
We recently an equally sloppily written voucher law here in NH. No accountability of any kind. And homeschoolers are explicitly written in. In fact, since we have won a lower court injunction against funding religious schools (state supreme court decision probably by next spring), home schoolers make up the majority of the small number of vouchers the program has been able to give out.
What is the issue with homeschoolers as long as the voucher is less than the marginal cost of educating the child, there should be no adverse consequences for school funding? If you impose performance or outcome requirements on homeschoolers shouldn’t they also apply to the public schools themselves?
If it were all about moving the kids along in the cheapest way, home schooling or any schooling subsidized by someone other than that public would be fine that’s not it. So it comes back to the question of why the public would subsidize an unaccountable education system like home schooling.
Actually, public schools are plenty accountable…though the debate over that is endless.
Bill:
Accountable for what? Is it to ensure that the money is spent on education materials? HSA work pretty well as far as I can tell, so why not ESA. Should there be outcome measures/AYPs for homeschoolers?
Yeah you know if there really are tax payers nit picking (sp?) about education spending I would like to hear what they have to say. I think that is a fabricated insecurity on the part of “conservatives.” I think most conservatives trust that our universities prepare teachers and our principals and supes manage them. This notion that they need to punish teachers and account, by test scores and lean budgets, for tax payer money that goes toward education is an assumed insecurity on the part of our General Assembly. They are tap dancing for a non existent audience. It’s like when an adolescent worries about their clothes and go to great lengths to don a certain thing when really nobody minds what they where that much. I really don’t think the electorate of NC was sitting around thinking “well gee I hope these newly elected guys punish those GD teachers and really cut back spending on education.” I just don’t. These guys have a phantom menace and have become menaces to society themselves with these policies. And I would gladly take any one of them out for a round of golf and a cocktail afterwards to point this out to them. I believe all who are throwing these darts and stink bombs at public schools will rue the day they did so. Truly. What the hell else are we here for if not but for strong communities and good living.
Short sightedness I tells ya. Short sightedness. So they can wear a suit and work in Raleigh.
What they wear.
Have I mentioned I don’t like auto correct?
Vouchers are TAX dollars and a true home schooler does not want to take them as it ties them into the Federal top down system.
Apparently there are tax funded homeschoolers and some that are privately /self funded . The latter are producing well EDUCATED students that are prepared for their futures. Socialized but not Socialists. Educated , not trained. Tested, not assessed.
Colleges and Universities hold these applicants in high regard as few need academic remediation. Caution… These students will not be PC . Home school parents and students know to choose higher Ed VERY CAREFULLY. Understanding that placement in an institution of HIGHER LEARNING may place individuals in jeopardy.
Polly:
I do not disagree with your assessment of the characteristics of some home schoolers, but why would there be a difference between those privately funded and publically funded?
Private funding does not carry the burden of TAX dollars. Vouchers are TAX dollars and acceptance of them automatically brings you in to the government system which many home school parents specifically wish to avoid.
Polly:
You said: “Apparently there are tax funded homeschoolers and some that are privately /self funded . The latter are producing well EDUCATED students that are prepared for their futures.”
My questions was why you distinguished between the two in terms of “producing well EDUCATED students.” I recognize that tax dollars can come with strings, but strings already exist for homeschoolers, at least in Massachusetts.
North Carolina is already failing its young people. This will guarantee that we remain at the bottom of educational achievement and our children will not be able to succeed in the world. I am totally disgusted with our governor and the legislature…a pox on all their houses.
I think Art Pope has a lot to do with it.
Public money is for public schools; it’s that simple. At some point our legislature will either figure it out or be replaced. This has not been a popular decision here in North Carolina. We’ve all been told in one way or another that we can be replaced; well so can they – the sooner, the better.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
“Public Money for Public Schools” sounds to me too much like a slogan. In the UK it was and is standard practice that public money followed students to religious based schools that accepted all students who wanted to attend. The payments covered the average cost. Actual school buildings had to be paid for by private funds.
Who cares what they do in England. Their queen is the head of the Anglican church, which is frankly a slightly different model than we have adopted. I’m guessing that there is some history that has led to their system of schooling, just as we have some history that has led to ours. Sometimes a good slogan makes sense. I’m with you Ms. Cartwheel Librarian: “Public money for public schools.”
Ontario with its highly rated schools, also supports Catholic schools with tax payer money.
And your point is?
2old2tch:
There are other models for taxpayer support of education that incorporate more options for parents.
I agree.
And yes, we can only look at what other countries do to a certain point. We have to consider how our country is run in comparison with their’s.
We have a bully named Art Pope creating a lot of this hardship.
There seems to be some back and forth on this (especially as to private religious schools) from the US and various state Supreme Courts. I simply believe that we have public schools available to all students K-12 and if a student desires something else, he or she is responsible for providing for that something else.
Americans of European descent have made this continent our home in part to pursue religious freedom. Admittedly our whole history since the 1500’s has been one egregious, horrific, assault on indigenous and other peoples. I’m not here to go into that but we are not Europe, Canada, Japan, China or anyplace else. We pay taxes to provide for a public education for anyone living here. Private is not public – oh my. another slogan!
Ms. Cartwheel Librarian:
The issue is not about religious schools it Is about choice for those parents who, for whatever reason, prefer to educate their children outside of the public school system. One reasonable view is that taxpayers pay taxes to educate children, not to support public schools. It logically follows that the money should follow the child. The counter argument rests on some notion that there is a collective entity labeled “public” which is akin to Joanna’s community. Such collective entities are hard to define.
Bernie1815,
Do you also object to public funding of police and fire fighters? What is that “amorphous” thing we call “public”? Why do we have public beaches, public parks, public regulation of air and water?
diane:
I do not object to police or fire. They form natural monopolies within a jurisdiction by virtue of the need for coordinated coverage and the nature of the powers they possess. The same is not true for schools. There is no compelling logic for there being a single school authority in a geographic region. Indeed in Canada there were separate and parallel school authorities based on religion. There are some scale efficiencies in running schools but it is not clear that these off-set losses to autonomy. (In the case of LA and NYC it is arguable that they are far too big to be run effectively.) If taxpayers decide to support education they can chose to support multiple ways of supporting education – which is what they have done. The multiple channels for providing education do not in and of themselves undermine the notion of providing all with basic skills (as per Ben Franklin’s early view of local schools).
bernie1815,
If I take your premise and apply it to the DOT, it makes for problems. The “choice” thing just does not work. I am not able to buy a road. My tax dollars along with everyone else’s pay for roads. If we decide to fund roads of choice, then the infrastructure of the state will implode. I might choose for my road to go one way and others might want a road that goes that way. We end up with inferior roads. Divide and conquer has a basis. I don’t pretend to be an expert, I simply believe what I believe and feel that my understanding of what is fair or just is correct in this situation.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
Roads are natural monopolies. Schools definitely are not.
bernie1815,
How are road “natural monopolies”? I don’t follow.
Ms Cartwheel Librarian:
In the early days of the country many roads were built and maintained by private enterprises through a bidding process. They were granted a monopoly with a promise that no other road would be built. (In the UK this was done through an Act of Parliament.). The same principle applies to bridges.
What makes it a natural monopoly is the basic fact that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Most toll roads controlled the easiest and shortest route between two locations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_roads_in_the_United_States
I stand informed. That said, that was then and this is now. What is public (paid for by the public) is public and what is private is private.
I honestly was never going to comment here again, had actually stopped reading it for awhile, it’s an odd juxtaposition being an educator and a parent. I live on a street in NC, that is full of home schooled children and what’s funny none of the parents want vouchers/ government money. Next door is a mother that taught for 11 years in NC but left teaching when her children were old enough to go to school so that she could home school them because according to her it is better than a NC school. Though I thought that odd initially, I think that sounds like the most logical reasonable thing I’ve heard in a long time.
As we were transferred to NC and no attempt to get a transfer back out of here could occur, jobs were resigned just to get out of here. My children have 4 more days with the lying, deceptive, thug educators here in NC.
Want to change NC? Start by explaining why college of education instructors that have less than a year in a K-12 setting are out on the conference tour discussing how teacher education needs to change. And then let them teach pre service teachers? How are they different than TFA, honestly, how?
Someone needs to build a fence around this place, protect the rest of the country. I have to tell you, after this experience – the reformers are starting to make a whole lot of sense.
Peace out, teach on, run some more worksheets NC teachers – take away recess for “structured play”, ask if my children are wearing red because they are Wolfpack fans because you have 0 clue what is going on in your own profession/state, take the easy way and kiss my arse.
No need to block me Dr. Ravitch or whatever people do on blogs, I’m done with listening to teachers – I want to hear from pissed off parents, I want to listen to Letitia James.
Some of us are parents.
I am a parent of 3.
Leaving NC is not an option for our family.
So I will continue to engage in education and respectful dialogue to find answers for education issues.
And for that I see no need to apologize.
This has been going on in other parts of the country for years. I’m from WI and my school district has had a homeschooling charter school for at least ten years. Accountability is pretty much nonexistent and yes, my tax dollars are paying for fundamentalist religious instructional materials.
I support people’s choice to home school their children; indeed, I can sympathize with their reluctance to subject children to the regime of standardized testing and so-called accountability. Right now, people who home school must plan thoughtfully and, probably, make some financial sacrifices in order to have one parent at home full-time. Offering homeschoolers state money would allow more people to make this choice, but it also creates an incentive for poor families not to send their children to school, and that is problematic. If you are having trouble making ends meet to feed and house your four children, wouldn’t it be tempting to simply keep them home from school and collect their home school “tuition,” even though that money might not be spent on their actual schooling? Would the law in effect pay families not to educate their children?
Gloria:
Any funds can be tracked just like HSA funds can be tracked. Why would you limit the choices of people just because they are poor?
Bernie–
you miss the point. That’s nice thinking and all, but it sure isn’t practical, it doesn’t acknowledge collective effort for the sake of strong community and it serves as justification for “taking your ball and going home” (and at some point I think the choice efforts are going to result in higher taxes). It doesn’t engender strong effort on the part of communities and in short, tears them apart. Building proverbial bridges in community is not accomplished by trying to broker privilege for the disenfranchised with tax dollars. Rights and privileges of citizenship cannot be unlimited and we certainly cannot look at what wealthy folks do to determine what should be available to the poor. Instead, we come together and look at how to maximize what our collective resources can offer, and in accordance with basic rights that come about through collective effort (like a trained police force, trained and well equipped fire fighters, and trained teachers in well-equipped, supported schools). But if people don’t want strong communities then definitely just keep trying to broker privilege like the wealthy have for the poor. I mean, we should have Christmas every day and dessert first and everyone should have name brand clothes and drive BMWs, and all women should get boobs if they want them and it should all be paid for by taxes.
The truth is, public schools CAN deliver excellent education. And they should be led and enabled to do that. The choice argument just diverts attention to the real subject.
Joanna:
I don’t think I missed the point at all. I would make a big distinction between public support via taxes for education of the young and public support for public schools as they are currently configured.
Your argument about community might make more sense if the schools were small and actually drew from a single community – but many do not. For example, I live in a small town of about 5000. The HS is a regional HS and draws students from a number of distinct towns. Where is the community? In large cities it is even more a figment of imagination to talk about communities. Communities just might exist in neighborhood schools with 1 or 2 classes per grade but such schools are the exception not the rule. What kind of community exists when the HS has 1000 plus individuals? One intriguing but unexplored aspect of the Finnish system, IMHO, is that the schools are genuinely small and neighborhood based. There is no bus system. Most children walk to school.
Bernie–
fair enough; but my gut still tells me that vouchers are a bad idea.
Time will tell.
Vouchers are TAX dollars and that pulls you in to the Federal system. Not good.
Gloria–
You would think, though, that if the homeschooling families are at home to avoid schools that their tax dollars pay for that they would become vocal about what they want the schools that they help pay for to be like. Instead of staying at home to avoid them.
I am not interested in paying to help someone else school their children to be good Catholics, Muslims, or Presbyterians! Our society has made a conscious choice not to institutionalize one religion over another and to keep faith separate from government. We don’t always do the best job of it. Clearly, we are far from perfection. Our society has also made the decision to support the education of its citizens through a modge podge of public schools that we all support through taxes. I no longer have children in the schools; I still pay taxes to support the schools. I don’t see it as my choice to take my money and run. It is my responsibility to support the education of future generations. The least divisive and most economical way to provide that education is through a public school system. TO DATE. Charters and vouchers have not shown that they are a route to providing an education for all children. They have not lived up to their press and have diverted tax payer funds from already cash strapped public schools that are open to all students.
Very good and taking note of the Presbyterian distinction. 🙂
I am not Presbyterian, but I have noticed that their institutions tend to produce good leaders and contributors to society. Maybe because they run their organization much like the US government (on good days—representative democracy). So they are good at rational leadership that accounts for many backgrounds and interpretations of good living. I would point out, though 2Old, that your list is not congruous. It would make more sense to say Cathilic, Muslim or Protestant. Your list is more akin to saying the food groups are grains, proteins and butter.
Just saying.
Seriously, though; you look at the Presbyterians. They will figure out how to steer clear of storm clouds that would do harm to them as a body of humans working together, harness community spirit, establish principles, create impact in societies, model responsibility, respect human integrity and foster excellence through truth. A little truth in what is motivating any various faction of the Public education debate right now could go a long way. In my opinion, the truth, as pointed out by Dr. Ravitch, is that our schools are being used as the stage for a myriad of activities that have deeper meaning and motive other than what is good for children and will ultimately hurt the notion of communities that are strong. And we risk pockets of communities that, at large, do not respect one another. Like tribal living or something.
Joanna:
My reading of the history of public common schools is that there was frequently another agenda whether it was the creation the “new citizen” in post-revolutionary France or in the US with concerns about largely Catholic immigrants.
You’re right, Joanna. “Presbyterian” is not parallel but then again neither is Catholic. I should have used Christian and thrown in the Hindus or Buddhists. I’m Presbyterian, so it probably just slipped out. Incidentally, one of my ministers told us that our nickname in some circles is the “frozen chosen,” so we have to be reminded on occasion that there is a concept called faith that is supposed to play a role in our lives. We tend to think things to death (although if I remember correctly, you have some experience with Presbyterians as well).
Bernie, et al:
yes, matter of fact the KKK supported public education as the end all option for tax dollars back in the day BECAUSE they did not want to support Catholic schools.
So here we are again. And our public schools were very Protestant and Christian happy even in the 80s (when I went through). How can that be avoided, completely, though? Our religion makes up so much of our fiber and ways of thinking. In fact the NC Constitution Article IX begins:
Section I:
“Education Encouraged. Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools, libraries and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”
2 old: indeed, if the Presbyterian church were royalty, I’d be a princess. I am the daughter and grand-daughter of Presbyterian ministers and I think I count 5 ordained uncles. My mother graduated from PSCE ( and she was an excellent and sought after public school teacher; she taught on a military base, where word of her was literally global because people transferring in from Germany and other places where they would have spent a year or two would tell families moving to NC to ask for her). I think Presbyterians do have the approach for education pretty well figured out (and in fact I know Presbyerians in Kansas City who are speaking out against privatizing).
I followed the family path to Davidson and have worked in some Presbyterian churches doing music with children. But I was re-confirmed an Episcopalian when I married my husband (a change that I was ready for).
I don’t know how to separate faith life from schooling. In fact, I would dare to say that even Dr. Ravitch’s persuasions reflect her Jewish background, because they are known for excellent education but also for looking after the poor (namely, orphans and widows). Perhaps the last fifty years has seen public school unofficially embrace Judeo-Christian values and now that our “global” existence does not allow for that, the vouchers and charters are the only other way people see to still enable that.
I try to just love people. And truth. And knowledge, despite religion. So far that has worked for me. But all of these questions are interesting ones and it will be interesting to see how they play out over the next fifty years. (hopefully without anyone suffering too badly; I can’t imagine that a religious influence on public schools over the last 50 years has been a bad thing, but I think along with that came racial bias, some complacency and maybe a lack of academics that aimed higher—and it happened to be an influence of my religious preference, so obviously it did not bother me).
Joanna:
Very interesting background information.
My point, obviously poorly expressed, is that a commitment to the education for the young regardless of their ability to pay is not the same thing as essentially compulsory education at a “public school”. It is really that simple. If it means giving homeschoolers vouchers to pay for educational materials then so be it. Similarly, if it means giving vouchers for the education of children in special religious schools then again so be it. Logically, there is no difference between such expenditures and the paying for educational services for children with special needs at private organizations or for paying for children to attend out of district public schools or paying for an “alternative school” or paying for an “exam school”. The underlying principle is the same: Tax payer support for education of the child not necessarily a particular institution or group of educators.
The issue of ensuring standards, effectiveness and accountability are separate issues.
As an aside, I visited Davidson when my daughter was looking at colleges. I was mightily impressed with the campus – though not so much with the Graham Gund building. At each school we visited, I went to the library to check out the new acquisitions to get a flavor of the general orientation of the school. While at Davidson, I noticed that there was nobody on the circulation desk. I asked and was told that students were on their honor to check books out!! They said that the system worked. Given what I had seen and experienced at colleges in the NE, e.g., articles sliced out of journals, I was very impressed. Alas my daughter did not get in and ended up going to St. Andrew’s in Scotland.
Bernie–
(St. Andrews is, I’m sure, a good choice; we spent the summer there when I was 12). The VAC at DC was finished my Jr. year, so all of my visual art classes (I took several—I love art) were in Cunningham, which ultimately became where I spent most of my time as a music major (albiet now that building just houses theatre—music took over what was the student union when I was there, before the new and wonderful SU they have now). Now back to the blog subject:
One thing I would say regarding your words: “a commitment to the education for the young regardless of their ability to pay is not the same thing as essentially compulsory education at a “public school”. It is really that simple. If it means giving homeschoolers vouchers to pay for educational materials then so be it. Similarly, if it means giving vouchers for the education of children in special religious schools then again so be it.”
I think the thought behind public schools, for some supporters, is the difference of a family vacation, where family members are involved with one another, and the mentality of parents that it doesn’t matter what camps their kids go to, so long as they, the parents, pay for something for them to do. This comes back to my sense of community, which you say is not possible with large numbers or people (large schools). I think public schools reflect their communities (even if it is students coming in from all over the city) and so if we have schools that are something thinking parents would want their children to avoid, then the community contributing to that school is not strong. I assume most parents who want a strong family take their children on vacations so they can all spend time together. I think of public school like that—-a way to not just offer payment for tuition of various camps for your kids, but a concerted effort to provide a quality experience that also focuses on the strength of interaction and in knowing one another. Call me naive, but I think what makes families strong is also what makes communities strong. I cannot imagine a parent being intentional about not focusing on interaction, but in just thinking that as long as they are paying to send a kid to whatever thing comes along, is the same quality of offering.
But I guess you can’t force people to be like family. Obviously white America has made loud statements in places like Kansas City or Detroit, where they moved out and established new suburban schools that were less attainable by poor minorities, that they don’t want to be “family” with their fellow citizens of other races and income levels. Then came TFA and corporate reform saying, wait, this isn’t fair and let’s set up a way for the poor minorities to have this too, but without addressing the issue of interaction in the community.
The post yesterday about our society being sick and not our schools goes along with this line of thinking.
So we are at a point where our communities are trying to decide if family vacation is important, or just paying for whatever opportunities come along for kids. In my opinion, that is tossing community spirit to the wind.
There is so much discussion about religion in this thread. Private does not equal religious. Check out http://www.educationrevolution.org for examples of American schools that exist to pursue alternative pedagogies.
Also, even “religious” schools are not necessarily trying to produce “good Catholics [etc.]” Friends schools have been established by a religious denomination but the education is about fostering community, peace, respect for one’s own gifts and the gifts of others. Yes, they do claim that those gifts come from a divine source but the point is not where they come from but that everyone has them and that children must come to know this in a deep way. The school works with this latter idea principally, not the former. As we all know, the Obama girls attend Sidwell Friends, Chelsea Clinton went there, and the school is highly desired by the Washington area elite. If this kind of school has been successful in producing students with the kinds of qualities we are looking for (tolerance, respect for others, a strong work ethic) why would we not want to encourage this model in other locales? Alternatively, a school founded by secular humanists might also achieve the same result. I see it as less about the original religious inspiration than the pedagogical application of worthwhile principles.
You are right, Emmy. The thread rather warped from its beginnings. There are many fine private schools that owe their founding to a religious group that are secular in nature. The objection was to tax dollars going to private schools with a religious agenda. There are private schools that provide services for public school students/districts particularly when we are talking about special needs students. In that case, the usual procedure has been for the public school to pay tuition to that school for a student that they have agreed can benefit from the private school services.
Very Interesting point and you very well may be right.I still think it is a bad idea for the children of NC. It’s a bad idea for children in any state. These kids are being used as pawns in a game they did not choose to play. It is a sad time in education everywhere.
Please read this report about NC teachers written by two colleagues of mine.
Key Findings
• Over 96% of the educators who participated think public education in North Carolina is headed in the wrong direction.
• Two-thirds of teachers and administrators indicated that recent legislative
changes have negatively impacted the quality of teaching and learning in their own school.
• Over 74% of respondents indicated that, as a result of the legislative changes, they were less likely to continue working as a teacher/administrator in NC.
• 97% of respondents think the legislative changes have had a negative effect on teacher morale.
• 98% of teachers and administrators surveyed believe that the removal of financial incentives for pursuing advanced degrees will have a negative effect on the quality of teaching and learning in North Carolina’s schools.
• Nearly all respondents indicated that the failure to give teachers a raise in pay will have a negative impact on the quality of public education.
• Ninety percent of teachers and administrators indicated that the removal of tenure, with all teachers placed on 1-, 2-, or 4-year contracts by 2018, will have a negative effect on the quality of public education in NC.
• In regard to the legislature’s plan to eliminate tenure and identify the top 25% of teachers for annual pay raises, approximately 7% of teachers indicated they would give up tenure in exchange for the supplement (64% would not give up tenure and 28% are uncertain).
• 38% of respondents believe the Read to Achieve Program will have a positive impact on the quality of education in the state. Among elementary teachers, this figure is just 20%.
• A significant portion of teacher and administrator comments described working harder to protect students from the perceived effects of the recent legislative changes.
• Nearly 87% of respondents think the voucher plan, providing eligible families with a $4,200 annual voucher to allow a child to go to a private school, will have a negative impact on the state’s public schools.
Click to access SmithImigReport.pdf
Janna,
Thanks for putting this out there. sadly, the legislators don’t value what educators(THE experts on education) think. Clearly there is a disconnect.
Sad day for NC families, student and especially teachers. I hope other states do not follow this path or our country will see horrible results from these terrible decisions.