When I heard the news last night that the jury in Florida found George Zimmerman innocent of any crime and that he was free to walk away, I felt literally ill.
As an American who respects the rule of law and the jury system, I felt disillusioned.
This verdict seemed to manifestly unfair that I found it hard to bear.
This burly guy Zimmerman is a neighborhood watch volunteer, under instructions to report what he sees, but not to get involved. Yet he followed an unarmed teenager. Zimmerman and the teen had an altercation. Zimmerman killed the boy.
There is no doubt that Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.
There is no doubt that the guy with the gun shot the boy without one.
Zimmerman is a killer.
How does he walk away a free man?
I don’t get it.
I think it has to do with the ALEC “stand your ground” law that allowed Zimmerman to claim self-defense.
That’s wrong.
Justice was not done.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Dear Dr. Ravitch, I whole heartedly agree and so does my sister and parents. As a teacher, the verdict scares me. How many students will we see killed because some one thinks they’ll get away with it? I would think most but not all teachers would agree, those who have open minds and hearts. Know that you are not alone. Even if we are thousands of miles away from Trayvon’s parents we wish we could do something to help them, do something to make the world and this country a safer place for all of us. Dr. Ravitch, Thank you for your honest thoughts, Kathleen
With all respect, I must ask:
Did you follow the trial?
Read Florida’s manslaughter law?
See Zimmerman before his weight gain since the incident?
Perhaps laws need to be changed. Perhaps those on neighborhood watch should NOT carry guns. Perhaps prosecutor’s should be better prepared for trial.
Zimmerman wasn’t officially part of Neighborhood Watch. I think he met with them a time or two, but never formalized it. It is against Neighborhood Watch protocol to be armed and it is against protocol to get involved other than calling the police. After these things were pointed out, Zimmerman backed off his claim to being a “Neighborhood Watch Captain” (one of many of his little distortions and outright lies throughout this case).
Plain and simple, GZ is a murderer who walked on the basis of a bad law and a bad interpretation of that same law. What about Trayvon’s right to defend himself? What about his right to live even though he was stalked and profiled.Let’s blame the victim.GZ, he lives to profile and stalk another day.
Wait. Stalked? The neighborhood had a “watch” for a reason.
And when Trayvon was slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground, what should have happened? Trayvon’s hands were bruised from punching GZ, breaking his nose. Zimmerman had no bruises on his hands. The gun angle proved Trayvon was on top of him. Really, what should have happened?
Had the story been told with no races disclosed, what would the outcome be?
This trial is simply one of many incidents being used to further perpetuate racial tensions and divide people by race- plain and simple.
Yes, and we have state legislatures bought & paid for by ALEC using their model bills to thank for this further perpetuation of racial tension. All the while, the Koch brothers stay gated away from the rest of us.
Zimmerman pursued Trayvon Martin. Had he followed the directions of the dispatcher that evening, we’d be talking about something else.
Stand your ground laws are there to create more division among us as a society. That’s just what the NRA sells. Fear your neighbor. Fear the “other.” Why? So you go out & buy more guns.
Martin’s hands: the autopsy shows one small abrasion (1/4″x1/8″) on the left hand, that’s it.
Watch who you call a murderer after he has been found not guilty. If you were anybody and had 2c to your name, he would sue your ignorant, malicious ass.
Then why have a jury or even a trial? I agree there is a lot wrong here, but i teally wish people would stop grieving over the trial itself. This is about everything but the trial. The circumstances, the law, the police, race, too manh things. I honestly think manh juries would reach the same conclusion.
For the state to prove murder, malice must be established: either intent to kill, or intent to cause serious bodily harm, or depraved heart wanton conduct, or a killing during the commission of an inherently dangerous collateral felony. The prosecution tried to establish wanton conduct and failed to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt.
At the very least it should have been manslaughter. I mean, if you load a truck improperly and someone gets killed as a result, you may very well face prison time even though it was a mistake and you certainly didn’t mean to kill anyone. Zimmerman’s actions in getting out of his truck and following Martin went far beyond a “mistake”.
I could see the jury going for manslaughter if that had been the charge all along. Sometimes the “lesser included charge” works out well for the government — it’s one of the many reasons why prosecutors have such win rates at trial. But in a case like this, where the main charge gave the defendant a platform to build a strong self defense case and the lesser charge was correctly seen as a Hail Mary, the strategy can backfire.
Among the lessons nobody will learn from the case:
Don’t pack a gun and approach strangers to try to detain them unless you’re a cop and you announce yourself as such.
Assume that some of the most important facts in any high-profile crime are unknown to the media. The police don’t turn over their files until they have to, and they when they do they turn them over to the defense, not the Huffington Post.
And don’t overcharge defendants.
You don’t get it? Let me explain to you what the evidence was and what the law of self defense allows.
If someone jumps out at you and overpowers you by punching you in the face and knocking you down, and then gets on top of you and starts raining punches down on you and slams your head into a concrete sidewalk and screams that he is going to kill you, then you have 2 seconds to decide if he means it, or will be satisfied to leave you unconscious with brain damage.
The idea that you are forced to let the attacker decide how far he wants to take it is not one that the members of the jury agreed with. They decided that this indeed was the scenario, and GZ was in fear of death or serious injury. And that his actions were reasonable.
You have shown in this post that you should stick to ed issues. I personally have lost all respect for you.
You have only Zimmerman’s word to support your second paragraph and he’s a proven liar. His wounds certainly don’t support that he was getting beaten too badly – the medics on the scene didn’t even deem his little boo-boo on his head worth bandaging.
Trayvon was in fear of death or serious injury because he was being followed and relentlessly tailed by some guy who could have been a crazed maniac, a psychotic stalker or a sexual predator. All these things could have been going on in Trayvon’s mind and for all he knew, he was fighting for his life. But he is dead and cannot articulate his side of the story. Millions of people appear to be agreeing with Diane and there are probably millions who disagree and millions more who are in the middle and are undecided. I think you are wrong to castigate Diane in such a negative fashion.
Your list is not evidence, just the defendant’s narrative which was unsupported by physical or eye-witness evidence. The case was indeed all about self-defense law.
Diane, I wondered if you would blog a comment regarding the Zimmerman verdict. Thank you for expressing your sincere opinion and may I extend my appreciation to reading other educators comments re: the verdict. Although our thoughts may be divided on justice being served or not, let’s agree that losing a child under any circumstances is a problem that needs our attention.
I don’t think much of Zimmerman but it was a bad situation. Both parties should have avoided the fight. Given what was reported of the evidence I think the verdict is fair. It is reasonable doubt not innocence. Trayvon Martin chose to get into a fight. He could have left the scene. He is dead, I am sad, but male pride and anger is also at fault here, and gun laws that encourage idiots to carry guns.
Then, Diane, you do not understand justice and law. Trayvon jumped Zimmerman. Zimmerman shot in self defense. What’s truly painful is the ruin of both of their lives.
What’s even more painful is for you and others to continue to stir up racial hatred when race was not an intrinsic part of this incident except in the minds of those who wanted to use it for their own rabble rousing. Ravitch, Sharpton, Jackson. To have to mention you in that company is truly embarrassing. First supporting Morsi. Now this. You may be a nice grandma, but your thinking is off.
You owe America an apology.
Harlan,
Diane did not mention race.
So, no apology needed from, but , rather from you.
Anyway,the Martin family can try to seek justice the same way Nicole Brown Simpson’s family did.
Harlan,
Go back and read again. Race was not mentioned. I am not sure you should be preaching about “off thinking”. Does everyone have to agree with you?
Defended himself from what…being followed? A “white cracker” was following him so he approached him, struck him, got on top of him, and beat him. Hmm, was running away or calling 911 not an option for a teenager? The crime began the minute GZ was punched. Using hyperbole (stalking) misrepresents what GZ was doing. The police dispatcher advised GZ to stay put, this was a request, not a mandate or a directive. Not doing so was not a crime. BTW, people need to stop being slick, this case was always about race. Let’s stop calling GZ names to try to prove this case unless we level the playing field and reveal TM’s past, facebook page, juvenile/school record. Do you know why he was sent away from his home? He was no angel. This entire case was tragic. TM, feeling threatened or disrespected, should have sought help or fled the area. His skittles and iced tea was not the only thing he had with him. He had a cell phone. It was the only weapon he needed, it is such a power tool. Bottom line, TM put the whole world in a difficult position because his pride and anger got the better of him. The media fanned the flames of racism by misrepresenting the case from the beginning. They put us in a bad place as well. This whole case was a shame, and the death of a child is being used to push the agenda of haters and trouble makers. We need to let the child rest in peace. We need to let the family mourn. We need to stop exploiting the tragedy to further the agenda of the sanctimonious.
As others have pointed out, Diane didn’t mention race, but let’s not pretend this isn’t about race. It was about race the minute a white Hispanic guy killed a black guy. Let’s not pretend that the outcome wouldn’t have been completely different had Martin killed Zimmerman. How many people who are defending Zimmerman’s right to defend himself (after getting out of his vehicle armed and following Martin) would be defending Martin had he gotten the gun away from Zimmerman and killed him?
Furthermore, as Mychal Denzel Smith writes, Zimmerman’s innocence rests on Martin’s criminality. We supposedly had to give Zimmerman the “presumption of innocence” (even though the fact that he killed an unarmed teenager was never in doubt), but we didn’t have to give Martin any presumption of innocence. As Smith said, convincing six people of the criminality of a seventeen year old black kid is never a problem.
More to the point, legal analyses show that the self-defense law tends to support whoever survives an unwitnessed altercation that results in death.
What do you mean “legal analyses”? Source? Does this source look at how these laws work in actual practice, or just theory?
Sorry, but if Martin had killed Zimmerman that night, I don’t believe for a minute the nation would be rallying behind him on “self-defense”. He would have been just another murderous black thug and he would have ended up in jail.
Well, I’ve seen a few, so far the most comprehensive (tho overly simplified) is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amy-dardashtian/zimmerman-trial-self-defense-law_b_3594741.html
Still researching; so far cops & lawyers seem to agree that stand-your-ground can be used successfully by the survivor as long as there’s nothing to definitively refute his narrative– so theoretically TM could have used it had he wrestled the gun away & shot GZ. (Not arguing re: nature of public outcry that would have ensued). Also worrisome: it seems it would not be that much harder for GZ to get off in states w/traditional self-defense laws.
Harlan officiously PROCLAIMED: “What’s even more painful is for you and others to continue to stir up racial hatred when race was not an intrinsic part of this incident except in the minds of those who wanted to use it for their own rabble rousing. Ravitch, Sharpton, Jackson.” Good grief, Harlan’s latest bombastic harangue amounts to taking a sledge hammer, a flame thrower and a small nuclear device to a butterfly. How the heck is Diane rabble rousing from her humble blog, it’s not as if she’s on TV or radio every day for 3 hours spouting nonsense and bilge in the fashion of Rush Limbaugh? To Compare Diane to Sharpton or Jackson is ridiculous; they are both very high profile national figures who get tremendous amounts of exposure on all the media. Sharpton has his on TV and radio shows and I think that Jackson may have TV and/or radio shows, too(?). Diane gets a lot less interview time than Michelle Rhee. Harlan just loves to beat up on Diane because he is prisoner to a very far right wing ideology.
My ideology, to the extent it is one rather than just common sense, sets me free Joe. Is Diane just a butterfly? According to chaos theory a butterfly’s wing flap on a mountain in Mexico can have unexpected results in Chicago. I was just very, very disappointed in witnessing her very imperfect understanding of “justice” in relation to the law of self-defense. It is a naivete bordering on irresponsibility. I don’t necessarily think it affects her judgement of things of which she is a ‘scholar’ but it does not increase her credibility on education issues if she can be SO off on this public affairs matter largely irrelevant to her main focus.
Same with Morsi. To hold up a rose for ‘democracy’ when for Morsi ‘democracy’ means a way to get into power and never give it up is again quite naive. It suggests to me that when she uses the word ‘democracy’ in educational contexts she may mean the same as Morsi, i.e. democracy is a way of keep the unions in power.
In some ways, she is a ‘new’ liberal, a convert, and perhaps hasn’t learned fully the deep hypocrisy of tyranny inherent in that stance toward fellow citizens, and that insufficient command of the pirates rhetoric leads her to slip up when she blogs on matters in which she has limited expertise. If only she were a mere butterfly, but she is an educational ‘leader’ willy nilly, and lots of people look up to her and believe her. She has always treated ME fairly, bent over backwards in fact, so I do respect her for that. It’s like discovering one’s mother, or a revered aunt, has hidden bigotry. Think Woodrow Wilson’s racism.
I don’t think Eleanor Roosevelt so faltered. Why must Diane blurble nonsense?
Harlan,
You have two strikes.
One more and you are out.
Permanently.
It is my blog, and you don’t insult the host.
You have more comments on this blog than anyone else, and you are both insulting and tiresome.
You have been warned.
Diane
I said that the law might have been followed but this murderer stalked andprofiled the teenager. What should he have done? Reported it and left it alone. Apparently you are not a person of color who has been discriminated against so you don’t understand. Understand this, the teenager was defending himself without a gun, the adult was profiling and stalking with a gun.Trayvon’s not alive to tell his side of the story. That’s the tragedy and the outrage. These feelings won’t change.
Why are so many blacks in America growing up in “families” where a woman has children by several men and is supported by 50 kinds of welfare? Why are so many blacks in America so unable to grasp the opportunities they have to be educated and move up in life? Why are so many blacks in America involved in criminal activities and wind up in prison? Why are so many blacks in America so violent and uncivilized?
Poverty. And it happens to people of all races. Reasons for poverty? Poor education, illegitimate children, laziness, ignorance, welfare, bigotry, undiagnosed mental illness, cyclical dysfunction, low esteem, lack of values, family history, irreverance for life, etc….but NOT because of a lack of will by others to help or opportunities for relief from the bonds of poverty. We are the most charitable nation on earth and no amount of handouts will break the cycle of poverty until the will of the impoverished overrule their despair. There is hope for those in need but too much of what we do in this country keeps people in poverty. Many, many blacks have successfully avoided poverty or found a way out of it since the 60’s but the recovery is still in its infancy some 50 years later. Just because an amendment deems it law, civil rights do not just happen simply by saying it’s so. Actions must support what is right and too many blacks suffer still today from bigotry and hatred. That is a nasty little fact of the matter and I am very ashamed about it. I am sorry to admit that I was born and raised in a racist family, in the deep South, during the 50’s. The harsh sound of my father’s voice against blacks still resonates in my head…but it never made it to my heart. I don’t struggle with my own racist thoughts, I struggle at the hateful vitriol by my peers today, in 2013! It’s as if no time has gone by, yet I know that many heads and hearts have changed over the years and that is progress…but not enough. At some point, the black communities must determine that they have had enough of dysfunction, hatred, anger and resentments (though rightly earned over the last two centuries). At some point, the very people who are down and out by their own behaviors, must say “No more!” No more for them, their children, their families, their neighbors, their absent fathers, their abusive men, their laziness, their irreverence for life, their self destructive habits, their recycling of the past…rather say YES to taking the fight into their own lives to make them better. There is help out there. Our nation depends upon it. The facts don’t lie. It is outrageous that blacks suffer in this country as much as they do. No doubt, there are pockets of deep injustice still served up in their communities that fuel hatred, resentment & rage and that is unacceptable. By example, little by little, that can change. When blacks commit more crimes, abort more babies, abandon more children, ignore values, refuse to work, perpetuate illiteracy and idolize vanity & indecency, what do they expect their futures to be? MLK had a dream but too few blacks imagine that kind of dream themselves. Who or what is holding them back from dreaming? Same thing that holds ALL people back…YOURSELF!
It’s called hegemonic oppression sustained by years of prejudice and discrimination. Your viewpoint on this trial/Diane’s post reflects some tremendous white privilege and ignorance. Keep making a fool of yourself here, I’m enjoying it. But, if you’re in a classroom teaching, I really hope your days are numbered. You disgust me.
Gee Phil, those same kinds of remarks were made about Italian-Americans a century ago, and of the Chinese and the Irish, etc. Thanks for your Fox News Rush Limbaugh screed though.
I’m just happy that the black preschoolers I teach are too young to read either Phil or Sandy’s posts.
Quick example: my daughter reading a book for 8 year olds about civil rights.
Quote from Scholastic book: “What exactly are civil rights? The right to vote is one. So is the right to a decent education and a decent job.”
Telling kids that a “decent job” is a right as opposed to telling them that it is a an educated choice one makes to support themselves in life is part of the reason our country is heading down the wrong path.
+1
He should have reported it and just left it alone. He did not profile by race according to the FBI. Don’t make things worse by mis-summarizing events.
No apology for the race-baiting of above, Harlan?
First, Neighborhood Watch does not encourage people to act like police officers.
“Wendy Dorival, who coordinated neighborhood watch programs for the Sanford, Florida, Police Department in 2012, testified Tuesday that George Zimmerman was specifically told not to pursue suspicious people in the gated community where he lived. …
Dorival said she worked closely with Zimmerman, because he helped organize the program for his neighborhood. She told him a neighborhood watch volunteer should act as the “eyes and ears” of the police — but not like a vigilante.”
Link: http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/26/see-neighorhood-watch-presentation-give-zimmerman
Second, with due respect for both the Martin and Zimmerman families and some of the other commenters on this posting, no one will ever know exactly what transpired in their life-and-death struggle and who yelled for help—except that the untrained man with a gun killed the young man without a gun. And there is nothing in the Stand Your Ground Law that authorizes neighborhood watch volunteers to act like police officers. [see first point]
Third, “‘These assholes always get away’ is what neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman told the police dispatcher right before he got out of his car to follow Trayvon Martin.” There was no need for him to get out of his car and he shouldn’t have disregarded the police dispatcher’s instructions.
Link: http://www.chicagonow.com/fanning-flames-since-1978/2013/07/these-assholes-always-get-awaywhos-to-blame-for-the-zimmerman-verdict/
Fourth and last, “The wannabe cop on trial for killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin told Sean Hannity on Fox News last year he didn’t know about Florida’s controversial “Stand Your Ground” law.
But George Zimmerman’s college professor said that was covered in his criminal justice class, and he even gave him an A.
“You always remember the smartest student; he was probably one of the better students in class,” Alexis Carter of Seminole County State College told the court Wednesday.”
Note that this appeared in the NYDailyNews. The headline for the article from which the quotes were taken reads: “Trayvon Martin shooting: George Zimmerman’s ex-professor says he covered ‘Stand Your Ground’ law, contradicts defendant’s previous statements [subtitle]
Zimmerman told Sean Hannity on Fox News last year that he did not know about the controversial law once cited as a reason he could not be charged with a crime.”
Link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/zimmerman-ex-teacher-covered-stand-ground-article-1.1389180
Paula: I agree with you.
A bit of my perspective. As a white kid growing up in the ghetto in Detroit, as much as I was verbally and [thankfully only occasionally] physically abused by black kids my age or older, I cannot remember ever not knowing what WAWB meant. That’s Walking Around While Black for the uninformed. I understood instinctively that Walking Around While White in the ghetto somehow gave me a free pass from white AND black cops and wannabe cops. And in that sense I was a lot safer than any of my black friends and peers.
Hate profiling of every kind has never gone away. It just puts on different masks. But that’s a discussion for another blog…
For all those who have at least a shred of decency left: R.I.P. Trayvon Martin.
Diane, thank you for posting something as difficult and touchy as this.
Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.
~Martin Luther King
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~Martin Luther King
The tragedy is the state of mind of the American public that this is acceptable. We have a serious mental sickness. I am not the only one who thinks this. I know a lot of African-Americans. I was with many today all day and they feel the same way. No young black male youth is safe now. This is the debths of lack of what we claim to be. We are going down not up in all sectors. This is not progress or sustainable. We are and have been a lawless country for a long time now. If you want to see how bad the Superior Court system is in California just go to http://www.fulldisclosure.net and go look at the videos on Richard Fine and the corruption across the state he discovered. As a result of what he did at 70 he was put into solitary confinement for 18 months. With Full Disclosure and Leslie Dutton leading the way he was finally released and when he was released the judge stated in the papers that he did it to scare every attorney in the state away from this issue. This is who we are today for real not in fantasy land.
What kind of society are we when it is OK to kill anyone who makes you itchy? Not much in my opinion.
Treyvon jumped Zimmerman. He had four minutes to escape, but he didn’t. He lay in wait for Zimmerman. I understand his anger at being followed by a “creepy ass cracker.” That doesn’t give him a right to attack. If Zimmerman had not been carrying, he might have stayed in his car. He should have stayed in his car. Granted. But he didn’t commit a crime. Treyvon did.
Wow! You were there Harlan. Why didn’t you testify?
Harlan was probably not “there”, but I’m willing to bet he either watched much of the testimony given at the trial, or read it. This is more than many who have responded here.
It was truly a series of unfortunate events, but we must look at the facts as presented in the trial- just as the six jurors did.
No apology for the race-baiting of above, Harlan?
Bad things were sure to happen once Zimmerman got out of his car and disobeyed the instructions he was given. I hope that despite the verdict this event follows him and haunts him. He made a really bad decision and everything followed from that.
67 shot in Chicago over the July 4th holiday.
Where is America’s outrage over that?
Zimmerman should not have been on patrol with a gun, he pursued Trayvon. He was safe in his vehicle.
Since January 224 homicides in Chicago. 500 total for 2012. Way to go Chicago, you’re on track to tie or exceed 2012 numbers.
I do think the state of public education and the policies made to guide it are parallel to what is happening in the legal system. Based on what i understand about the trial i believe it was a proper interpretation of the law but stand your ground is patently bad law if one citizen can follow another despite being told to stay put and the followed citizen ends up dead. This outcome shows the flaws so I hope the law is changed immediately. It is much harder to “fix” what is wrong in Chicago with 67 shot over the recent 4th of July Independance Day “holiday” but I don’t think school closures that parents are vigorously protesting will in any way help. I wish I had a solution, not just a critique because in both cases society loses in the long run.
Just as you counsel accepting democracy in Egypt, because democracy is a better system than the alternatives, shouldn’t we also accept the fruits of democracy – as bitter as they might sometimes be – here at home? Neither of us was at the trial and heard all the testimony, how can we second guess the jury that did? Just as we as a society accepted the acquittal of O.J. Simpson as the rule of law, isn’t Zimmerman entitled to the same? As other politicians jostle each other in the race to pander to thmasses on this case, it was President Obama who reminded us that “we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken.”
We weren’t there and don’t know what really happened. We can’t judge. With all the killings in the cities why does this case fill the news. Because the media wanted it to. Trenton has had 30 killing by gun this year alone, where is the outrage over this!
We can’t judge??? We can’t *not* judge. If you think Zimmerman is innocent, by definition that means Martin is guilty.
He was found “not guilty” and that is different from innocent by legal definition. When you have a chance to flee, and you chose to confront, you are guilty of a poor decision. In this case, it was tragic.
Exactly.
Which Harlan is this?
“He should have reported it and just left it alone.”
No apology for the race-baiting of above, Harlan?
Not sure I get the logic behind that, Diane.
Perhaps both made errors in judgement that night. To say that one is innocent of “charges”, does in no way imply that the “other” is guilty.
4equity2 – the only way that Zimmerman was justified in shooting and killing Martin is if Martin were indeed beating the snot out of him to the point that he was in fear for his life. But saying he’s not guilty of murder, you’re saying that he was defending himself, which logically implies that he had something to defend himself from, which in turn logically implies criminality on Trayvon’s part. Trayvon is the only person here who hasn’t gotten the benefit of a presumption of innocence, and he also happens to be the only one not able to speak for himself.
Too bad you weren’t working for the prosecution. Or on the jury. Or teaching logic.
Victims never get a “presumption of innocence” in criminal trials. Only defendants get that. For long-established and extremely good reasons.
Actually, FLERP!, victims are supposed to be assumed innocent (although the specific phrase, “presumption of innocence” is not usually applied in that manner). That’s why, in a rape trial, for instance, the victim’s history, dress and behavior are not supposed to be relevant. Apparently that doesn’t apply when the victim is a scary black kid.
Dienne — that’s not a “presumption of innocence.” That’s a rule of evidence.
Ok, I’m out. This has been way too depressing.
You thought it would be uplifting?
Fair point, Linda.
Of course, I was referring to people’s lack of understanding or interest in some of the most fundamental and important principles of law in this country (not to mention most of the civilized world). And on top of that, the thing where it’s never acceptable to admit publicly (or even on a message board) that you don’t know something.
And imagine applying that line of reasoning (most fundamental and important principles) to the field of education and how much the self-appointed “reformer” know nothings in high places get it all wrong. But I digress. Our country is doomed I fear.
I’m surprised that anyone could be surprised at this outcome. Murder II was a gross overcharge from the beginning and everybody knew it, including the prosecutors, who did the best they could with a weak hand. The indictment was terribly weak. This was clearly a manslaughter case, and that should have been the charge, but politics drove the indictment, which is never good to see.
31 states have some form of stand your ground laws… and it was the application of this law’s standards that led to the verdict. My state has this law and I’m sending an email to my Governor today seeking its repeal. Here’s a list of those states from Wikipedia: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. Three other states (Iowa, Virginia, and Washington) have considered “Stand Your Ground” laws of their own. Repealing this law or enacting a law making it a crime for a neighborhood watch volunteer to disobey direct orders from local police would go a long way toward ending this kind of gun violence.
The dispatcher was civilian. It wasn’t an ‘order’ but it was (good ) advice. I wish he had listened.
People are angry at being required to retreat from thugs. Nothing wrong with Stand Your Ground. What’s wrong is theft and assault.
No apology for the race-baiting of above, Harlan?
Ed Harris,
Peopel are required to have a gun license. Harlan should be required to obtain a license to carry that mindset of his . . .
Little Robert Rendo the wannabe thought policeman.
Phil Cicero,
I’m not sure you you want me to be . . .
Phil Cicero,
Sorry for the typo.
I meant I am not sure what you are referring to . . . What do I “wannabe”? I was thinking “policmen”?
Please clarify.
You do realize that the impoverishment traits you so scholarly posed above occur to many ethnic groups. I am in a region of Massachsetts right now where neraly all the traits you described occur in a 96% percent white population, age 17 to 26. There is a ton of section 8 housing here, which has, in part, become, alas, a lifestyle.
But poverty is poverty. It can befall anyone and be sustained by anyone. It is independent, as not so suggested by your erudite posting, of ethnicity.
Thank goodness you have not put out any vibes that you’re racist. Not you. That would be impossible.
His defense didn’t invoke the stand you ground law. It was ordinary self defense. Odd that everybody’s still confused about this.
While I laud your effort– & agree that SYG laws promote a shoot-’em-up, wild-west culture– it scares me that SYG laws weren’t even needed to defend Zimmerman. At most, they delayed arrest, & arguably figured in the politics of selecting the prosecutor & the charge.
Apparently in any state, there’s nothing to stop the survivor of an unwitnessed altercation from spinning a tale about who threw the first punch, why he couldn’t retreat, his reasonable fear of great harm. Evidence showing he provoked the confrontation is irrelevant.
I urge you to read May 22, 2013 AMERICAN THINKER article titled TRAYVON MARTIN’S FINAL HOUR by Jack Cashill. Published a month ‘prior’ to trial, you will see a very different Trayvon emerge. Follow the timeline closely and note details re ear buds and the ‘button’.
The jurors did not know these details but found self defense plausible .
I would appreciate your comments after you read the article.
Also, Diane, Zimmerman didn’t use the stand-your-ground law. He claimed garden-variety self defense.
Thanks. Does that mean one does not need to testify for oneself?
You never can be compelled to testify against yourself. That’s the 5th Amendment.
I agree with Diane, but…
Sometimes we need to have a gut feeling for history, as well as as much accuracy as we can muster.
Like many teachers, I vote. Therefore get called for jury duty. Unlike many of us, I have been involved in litigations and trials for decades. So when juries are selected, if I get to the last cut, the lawyers doing the voir dire either get very curious (my answer to just about all those questions is “Yes,” plus I served three years on the Board of the Illinois ACLU…) or just say “Have a good day…” Usually, as most readers here know, lawyers in trials don’t want jurors who have done a lot with the law.
But not always.
Once upon a time, I got to serve on a jury trying a civil case. It involved a claim against Ford Motor Co. under the “Lemon” law.
Me versus Ford, right? No matter how hard I try (and my Ford Taurus was built by union workers here in Chicago, for deities sake…) I can’t think of Ford without picturing the “Dearborn Independent” and that attack on the Reuthers on the bridge…
But, this is America. Even Ford has the right to its day in court, based on the law and the facts.
After hearing three days of testimony by both sides and listening to instructions to the jury — and with me as jury foreman — we turned in a verdict:
For Ford.
Life’s complex. I left that courtroom, after the judge thanked us, with a renewed respect for our jury system, imperfect as it is.
Now we’ve got George Zimmerman, Florida law, and the Trayvon Martin case.
When Sharon and the boys asked me last night at dinner (it’s Sam’s 12th birthday, so we went Greek, his choice, etc., etc. because he loves the flaming cheese) what I thought about the Travon Martin case, I had to pause. I tried to explain that given (a) Florida Law and (b) the way the evidence was laid out, (c) “beyond a reasonable doubt” was going to leave most juries with a “Not Guilty.”
But what do YOU think about it?
Or was that FEEL about it?
Later last night (while the “sleepover” crew was doing whatever 12-year-old boys do with video games and Netflix) I was here watching at the computer the responses from around the world. For some reason, my mind filled with pictures of those guys who had gotten away with murder back during the Civil Rights days — the Emmett Till white guys and the Cheney Goodman Schwerer white guys (I know, there were many many many others…). Wasn’t that chewing tobacco “Red Man”?
Maybe the most distressing thing was hearing the President of the United States talking about the rule of law, etc., etc. and thinking about Preadtors etc. etc.
Back to July 15, 2013. It’s going to be hot again in Chicago.
I’m glad that one of the fashions Chicago Teachers Union has available is the CTU hoodie.
We have a nice collection of tee shirts, and many of us have been wearing them since the weather got warm. Just as we were blessed with wonderful tee shirt weather during the Chicago Teachers Strike of 2012. Better to strike during tee shirt weather than hoodie weather…
But I guess it’s hoodie weather again.
And I hope I don’t hear anyone talking about how we are in a “post racial era” for a few months or years.
Meanwhile, I’ll go back to the two reports I’m working on for here at CTU: How Chicago Segregates (present tense) and the complexity of the Harold Washington thing.
I still love this country…
But there is something from Chicago’s Nelson Algren about this kind of love… Later on that.
“I tried to explain that given (a) Florida Law and (b) the way the evidence was laid out, (c) “beyond a reasonable doubt” was going to leave most juries with a “Not Guilty.”
But what do YOU think about it?
Or was that FEEL about it?”
In my experience talking to juries after verdicts, juries very often throw the jury instructions out the window and essentially try to “do justice.” They try to reconstruct what they believe really happened, and they consider whether the defendant really deserves to be found guilty/liable. It can be disturbing to someone who believes that the law and the evidence are what matters, and it’s not at all uncommon — you see it here on this thread, despite all the college degrees. Perhaps it’s universal.
I must say this is a first for me…I am not in agreement with you on Zimmerman. You claim Zimmerman is a killer. We are all potential killers when confronted with someone trying to take your life from you. He killed in self defense. Trayvon Martin reached for that gun and I, too would have done the same to preserve my existence and so would you!
I too feel that there was dillussionment here. The Asst Prosecutor did not show the photo of Zimmerman where blood was freely flowing from his head. The prosecutor and team bypassed a grand jury because they knew they did not have enough evidence to convict.
The head investigator saw Trayvon beating on Zimmerman and the police chief who got fired said Zimmerman was the one getting his head beaten to the ground a multitude of times. He found no evidence to hold a trial.
My friends in FLorida told me this became a race and discrimination case as soon as 2 weeks went by and nothing was done..The pressure was put on them to have a trial. Obama’s’ comment saying if he had a son he would want him to look like Trayvon Martin! What kind of ridiculous comment was that?
The prosecution is guilty of misconduct. The arrest warrant did not even have the picture nor did it mention the bruises , bleeding and gashes, evidence was just not there. It was the black community who cried foul play andn I don’t believe Zimmerman would have behaved any differently had Martin been white, Korean or Hispanic, like Zimmerman himself is.
You say justice was not done. You’re darn right justice was not done from day #1..
You say you respect the rule of law? I think as Americans we all do. The prosecution, Dr Ravitch, is guilty of grave ethical violations.The affadavit is supposed to tell the truth…the whole thruth and it did not. To me this is not only guilty of omission but borders perjury for not letting the jury see all of what they had…
This was a totally democratic liberal agenda case and the prosecution did not play by the rules.
If Zimmerman had not followed the boy, if he was not carrying a gun, the boy would be alive today.
Trayvon was killed by George Zimmerman. Zimmerman is a killer.
Absolutely.
Given the GZ case, the Casey Anthony case, Jeb Bush and his decimation of public education, and Georege W.’s shady win to the White House, perhaps we need to snip Florida off the continent and let it float out to sea.
Diane, surely you understand that there is a non-trivial difference between the statement “George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin” and the statement that “George Zimmerman committed second degree murder under Florida law,” right?
Do people actually not understand this? Or do they just think the distinction shouldn’t matter in some cases? I’d prefer the former, because the latter view brings along with it implications that are absolutely terrifying.
FLERP, that must be reassuring to his family to know he was killed but not murdered. Either way, he’s dead
I’m certain it’s not reassuring in the slightest to his family. But the point of the criminal justice system is not to provide consolation to crime victims. I don’t want to get melodramatic, but frankly I am shocked that we could disagree on this point.
Flerp!
The justice system has changed to giving solace to the victims of crimes.
This began in the state of Maryland when in 1981, a young college student, Stephanie Roper, was abducted, tortured, raped, sodomized, murdered and dismembered. Her parents found that system did not give any avenue for the victims, or the family of victims to participate in the trial.
So, they pushed.
And pushed.
And eventually, they got the right for the like of victim’s statements to be a part of the trial, I believe in the sentencing phase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Roper_murder
lol. So, I guess I can just walk around with a loaded piece and confront teenagers at night after following them through a neighborhood. Then, when they respond aggressively, I get a chance to use “self defense” and fire my gun? What planet are you living on? Perjury? Democratic liberal agenda? God, I hope you’re not a teacher.
“You claim Zimmerman is a killer.”
Well, generally, when you kill someone, that does sort of make you a killer, yes. That much is not in dispute. Diane did not call him a murderer, which is where there is contention.
To me, the term suggests habit, or something essential about the character of a person. A “killer” is not just someone who has killed. A killer is someone who kills. Like a runner runs, or a hunter hunts. But enough with semantics.
I just want to add to Flerp and others this all has new meaning when it is your dead son, grandson, sibling, etc..
Should I go for a walk tonight, I will try not to look suspicious or wear a hoodie, or fight back in any way if followed. I won’t enter a neighborhood where the predominant skin color is different than mine. I will succumb to my stalker.
It’s a dog eat dog world so be alert at all times.
I, too, felt ill. This is a travesty of justice. I cannot get past the fact that the police told George Zimmerman to NOT follow Trayvon. He ignored it, followed him, provoked him, and shot an unarmed boy. What is our country coming to? “Stand your ground” is an open forum for anyone to shoot and kill anyone else and claim self defense.
Wow, what case did you watch? Where did you get you facts?
Stand your ground puts the onus on the prosecutors to ‘prove he didn’t feel threatened!’ Impossible! In an inherently racist country, this translates into legalized lynching. Twenty states have passed this law. The only thing we can do is overturn these laws or inform juries of their right of nullification.
“Stand your ground puts the onus on the prosecutors to ‘prove he didn’t feel threatened!’”
Yes, the fact that the burden of proof has been on the prosecution in this case is beyond troubling. Self defense is supposed to be an affirmative defense, which means you admit to doing what you’re accused of doing, but you give a reason why you’re not legally culpable of committing a crime. Once you raise an affirmative defense, you’re supposed to lose your presumption of innocence (you just admitted you did it, after all), and the burden of proof is supposed to switch to you to prove your defense, not the state to disprove it.
For example, both Andrea Yates and Marilyn Lemak admitted to killing their kids, but pleaded insanity. It wasn’t up to the state to prove that they weren’t insane, they had to prove they were (and both failed, of course). I’ll never understand why the same wasn’t true for Zimmerman. How can the state prove that it wasn’t self-defense? But Zimmerman, being the liar he is, was hardly convincing that it was self-defense.
As FLERP! pointed out above, the stand your ground law was not an issue in this trial. The jury in this case could not nullify that law, but I suppose it could have nullified the self defense law that the defense did build the case on.
Diane, You are so wrong. I’d like to know what your son would have done if he were attacked and was getting his head beat on the cement. I guess you would have wanted him to just let him beat his brains out. I would hope my son would have done the same as zimmerman to save his own life.i asked my 17 year old grandson what he would do if a man was after him near his neighborhood and he said what a normal 17 year old would say – “run away as fast and far as possible!” Why didn’t Trayvon just leave instead of attacking?I have tried to unsubscribe to your site but have not been successful. Please do not send me any emails. Thanks
Neither of my sons has ever carried a gun.
And what do you think would happen if Trayvon, who was minding his own business, started running? My ex-husband was running to the car with packages one Christmas and 3 police cars came out of nowhere! Fortunately for you, your grandson will never have to know what Trayvon, and millions of other black men go through every single day. And you want Diane to stop sending you emails because she does not agree with you? Wow!
“Why didn’t Trayvon just leave instead of attacking?”
More wrong thinking. The evidence about how the altercation unfolded was very thin. The prosecution needed to establish a certain set of facts beyond a reasonable doubt, but it couldn’t, because there were other reasonable theories of those facts. Zimmerman was acquitted because of the reasonable inferences that could be drawn about what happened in the gaps. But by the same token, if people want to put Martin on trial, there are certainly strong inferences that can be drawn to justify whatever he did. For example:
Perhaps Zimmerman got out of his truck because he wanted to detain Martin. He’d called the police, and believed they were on their way, but perhaps Zimmerman didn’t want to see another one of “these punks” get away before they arrived.
Perhaps Zimmerman was not only feeling righteous but also nervous.
Perhaps he noticed that the guy in the sweatshirt was bigger than him, or more courageous than him, or a more experienced brawler, or was packing. So perhaps Zimmerman made sure that he had his hand close to his gun when he approached Martin. Maybe he had his hand on it.
Maybe Zimmerman had his gun drawn as he approached Martin, because maybe he’d read about how in times of stress, even the most experienced people can have trouble drawing their weapon quickly.
Maybe Martin saw this same guy who’d been following him now approaching him on foot, asked Zimmerman why was following him, and then saw the gun.
Maybe Martin tried to bolt, but maybe Zimmerman grabbed him, because the cops would be there any second, and this guy was up to no good. Or maybe Martin didn’t try to run, but Zimmerman tried to restrain him, with the one hand that wasn’t holding his gun.
Maybe Martin was trying to fight off a strange man who was about to shoot him dead.
Etc.
There may be some evidence that contradicts some of those inferences, I don’t know. But to the extent we don’t know what happened between Martin and Zimmerman, that gap cuts both ways.
Sorry, to be clear, I meant to write that perhaps Zimmerman *feared* that Martin might be “more courageous than him, or a more experienced brawler, or was packing.” Not that he “noticed” those things, as my sentence implies.
It is a tragedy, but from it, we are being led toward an opportunity for more dialogue, changed attitudes, improved communication & important insights into the issues about racism in America. How can we not be impacted from an event such as this one? Yet, we continue to look away from what happens in our own backyards…urban crime is at a crisis point in many cities, too many of those involved are black, gangs are controlling the streets & we do nothing but grow more fearful which makes the innocent more vulnerable. Until this becomes a major focus by our leaders, it will only get worse. Fear was present near that sidewalk that night. Throw in some attitude, angst, prejudice (prejudging) and it’s not surprising the outcome. Crime impacts our lives and I’d love to have a chat with the burglars who were terrorizing that little community up to that fateful night. In general, people don’t just do things randomly. There is some purpose behind our behavior. Curiosity killed the cat. This could happen in my own frontyard. I live on a corner bus stop in a quiet neighborhood. Almost everyday, I see and hear arguments by people getting off or on the bus. Often we call police to report someone passed out on the sidewalk, strangers knock on our frontdoor and strangers wait on our lawn. Am I afraid for my life? Not really, but if I were to approach a stranger waiting for a bus I have no way of knowing if s/he wishes to harm me or not? We live in a very turbulent time. Emotions are high, esteem is low, values are missing, ignorance exists, anger is rampant and despair is real. But, I count on the rule of law to be in place, I abide by the laws of this country and I don’t expect to bring trouble into my life. Wish everyone did the same.
There would have been no shooting if Zimmerman had not been stalking Martin. At the very least Zimmerman was guilty of stalking.
Tom Crabtree of the Tampa Bay Bucs tweeted this:
How cool would it be to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night?
What a powerful, moving, insightful comment!
Self defense or no self defense (and I have NOT been following this story too closely), but the idea of carrying a gun as a civilian on non-hunting grounds is repulsive to me and should be outlawed.
I remember seeing a newpaper ad coming from a local Florida paper that advertised a chic pricey women’s boutique that specialized only in beatiful garments designed to conceal weaponry. . . . all sort of hidden pouches and pockets in floral prints and taffeta, specifically designed to look like Valentino and function like Rambo. The selling point was sheer goddess femininity and elegance with a touch of gun fire when needed.
The Trayvon Martin case is a tragic story in all directions, for all parties, for the community where this took place, and for society at large.
Our forefathers built freedom of guns into the law probably because they were of the mindset that weapons could at any time be needed to ward off the British. Now, with the intrusion of big government that is increasingly not representing the needs of and increasingly oppressing it citizenry, I fear such a mindset is being catalyzed all over again. This reflects a fearful mindset and perhaps a primitive one, but a potentially real one nonetheless.
The Zimmerman/Martin case is therefore part of a much bigger picture having to do with the right to bear arms and the value we place on that. We find ourselves debating this once again, Newtown having occurred, and in 2013, when our political landscape has rendered itself ever more fascist (spying, income disparity) than ever.
This may make for a perfect storm of rioting all over the country: rioting with and without guns. I have been writing about this “phenomenon” for quite some time, and I sincerely hope it never, ever goes that route.
Still, the immediate story of Trayvon Martin is a horrible one, and he did not deserve to die. Zimmerman did not deserve to bear arms . . . .
There is more strict product liability built into blenders, TV dinners, and shoelaces than there is in guns.
The NRA should be ashamed of its platform. So should the representative who cave to it . . . .
I said it once and I’ll say it again, GZ is a murderer who stalked and killed a teenage unarmed kid. Disgusted and hurt. Can’t change that feeling-Trayvon-RIP
So what trial did you watch?
Gee Phil, I guess black people are just a drain on society, let’s just defend ourselves and shoot them.
This will probably get buried and is sort of a pedantic point, but whatever. As far as I understand, Zimmerman didn’t pursue a Stand Your Ground defense, so that law actually had no bearing on the verdict of this case. I don’t agree with SYG, or with the verdict, but I think it’s important to respect the facts.
Dr. Ravitch, I appreciate very much your opening this subject on your blog. Some might think it out of place, but we who work daily with young inquiring minds know better.
I was proud of our legal system as I watched how well Zimmerman was defended, & at first concluded the disappointing verdict had to be due to incompetent prosecution, mainly in charging and arguing to a case of 2nd-degree murder rather than manslaughter.
But a review of self-defense laws–even here in NJ– made me realize he would probably have gotten away with it anywhere, on either charge. Our nation’s antiquated self-defense laws are in sore need of updating. There’s a good analysis here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amy-dardashtian/zimmerman-trial-self-defense-law_b_3594741.html
Paula…I think you need to try and use your ‘intellect’ instead of your emotions. There was no ‘stalking’ and there was no ‘murder’. This the problem in our country…too many people use words they either do not understand or don’t care to understand.
Leonidas, you mean that the boy was not killed? Oh, he was killed but not murdered? Either way, he’s dead.
Yes dianerav…the word ‘murder’ has a very specific meaning. While Trayvon was ‘killed’ he was not murdered. The reason people like Paula use words like ‘murder’ and ‘stalked’ is because they either don’t under the words meaning or they use them intentionally to ‘whip people up’. I believe it is the latter.
Sorry if my intellect is not up to yours. I’m sure there are many points of law and word usage that I am unaware of but this I feel and am not ashamed to say, this deeply hurt me and others and its like a mark that you will never forget. Yes it was murder to me and semantics won’t change that. I fear that this will not be the end of this issue.
I can’t believe the slant his is being giving. Ask yourself what you would have done in the same situation? Just let the attacker beat you to a pulp and possibly kill you? or would you have reacted as GZ did? He had a gun and used it to protect himself as he believed his life was in danger…. How many other people react like GZ did every day? I’m sorry but No One will attack me or my family without fear of retaliation. How many innocent children are killed in WAsh DC or Chicago, or the city in which you live, by morons out for kicks? This wasn’t about race. And there was an assistant prosecutor who had never lost a murder case and she did not bring out all the facts. She, herself, may be guilty of ethics violations and perhaps perjury. Did you know George Zimmerman went to the prom with a black girl? That he mentored black and Hispanics and that he had homeless minority people who had nowhere to go in his home for a place to stay and a decent meal. Wait until Martin’s past behavior comes out. The case is over. The jury has spoken. This is how it works. Leave it alone. The court system may not be perfect but we need to accept the jury ‘s decision…to have the justice dept under Holder investigate with a federal case will prove even more ludicrous than the state’s case because there is just no evidence.
So you are right, your intellect is not up to her intellect and she is right, you don’t understand the legal definitions.
How many times should George Zimmeran allowed his head to be beaten into the concrete before he fired his gun?
Frank, why did he follow the boy?
But we only have George Zimmerman’s word that this occurred. The witnesses were all over the place about who was on top and who was yelling for help.
GZ has the advantage because the dead can’t give their side of the story.
Killing a human being is always a crime, though sometimes it may be justified. The jury found him not guilty –no evidence .If the kid didn’t attack Zimmerman and wasn’t bashing his head against the cement, he would still be alive today. He attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman defended himself. End of story.
I just heard on the news the FBI had this case investigated for over a year..They found no civil rights violations. Also, Zimmerman’s lawyer does not fear a civil case or a wrongful death case from the parents. In fact he said why would the parents even consider opening up to the public all the dirt that will come out about Trayvon in the civil case that did not come out in this case and besmirch their son’s name…He called them foolish to even think about doing it….He knows the evidence will not show their son in a good light at all.
Did you know that Zimmerman and his wife are mentors to two black under privileged children and with budget cuts this year spent their own money to continue to mentor them?
GZ word…the pictures…the witness statements…and something else, something I know a lot of people what to disregard….’common sense’.
GZ’s credibility is greater then that of TM. TM had his troubles. He was under the influence of marijuana at the time of the incident, it was not his first time. He had a school discipline record. His Facebook page had questionable subject matter. These are facts. He was not the innocent, happy go lucky kid the media wants us to believe.
How would TM answer the question, “why did you seek out GZ instead of heading home or using your phone to call for help.” GZ followed TM (not a crime) and called police.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Diane Ravitch’s blog wrote:
> ** > Leonidas commented: “GZ word…the pictures…the witness > statements…and something else, something I know a lot of people what to > disregard….’common sense’.” >
I don’t think that any disputes that Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. But, what was the situation when that occurred. Our legal system is structured so that in case of doubt an innocent person is not imprisoned, that also means that someone who is guilty could also be found innocent based on reasonable doubt of what occurred.
There are no facts that detail how the situation escalated or what exactly was occurring was at the time of the gunshot. The physical evidence indicated that Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Who initiated encounter? Who escalated the encounter? We don’t know.
A simple reminder for those posting: the specialized jargon of specific fields can be misleading for those who use the most generally used and accepted usages of specific terms and phrases.
For example, psychometricians routinely use reliability and validity in ways that would confound almost anyone outside of their field. Generally speaking [there’s always an expert or two who disagrees!] reliability refers to the consistency or stability of measurement, validity to the trustworthiness or accuracy of the inferences one draws from data generated by standardized tests and not to the tests themselves.
Confused? Disagree? Outraged? Packing a dictionary in one hand and a thesaurus in the other? Get a grip. Specialists in any field [and Eduspeak is truly unsettling at times too!] use certain terms and phrases as shorthands. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with their general usages either.
My only advice: don’t assume the worst of any poster on this thread. We are literally not all using the same language in the same way. Cut each other some slack. IMHO, this discussion is too serious to do otherwise.
Just my dos centavitos worth…
Rest in RIP, Trayvon Martin.
Yes KrazyTA very true…. ‘specialized jargon of specific fields’….however we aren’t talking about ‘specialized jargon’…nor are we debating elements of a ‘specific field’….we are discussing an incident that occurred where using ‘misleading’ words or terms is, in my view, done intentionally to create conflict and distrust. When someone refers to Zimmerman..’stalking, hunting, etc’….they do so for a very specific reason. Your attempt to dilute the point is not only just as disingenuous but a bit silly as well.
Leonidas: by dismissing my point you gave it added weight.
I am not being sarcastic: thank you for making my point even more telling.
🙂
Then apparently you are confused about your ‘own’ point. However there is no confusion as to why people are using these types of words. These terms/words being used by some in these posting are done purely to promote anger, nothing more.
KrazyTA: Leonidas can apparently read minds, so I guess we have to cut him/her some slack.
As I deeply respect your credentials as a historian, I also respect the credentials of defense attorney Alan Dershowitz.
You speak of the rule of law. Then read this… the prosecution did not follow rule of law….
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/20/Dershowitz-prosecution-immoral
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/04/12/alan_dershowitz_zimmerman_arrest_affidavit_irresponsible_and_unethical.html
And although we all express our opinions here, we must remember that we should not get too caught up in this…
This is just what Obama wants, dividing the American people so that they forget the real issues…
“respector of all opinions”? Except those of Obama?
Maybe you did not hear all of the evidence. Trayvon hit Zimmerman first rather than getting home. He was not a frightened child. If so, he would have run but instead confronted Zimmerman. If I were a guest in someone’s gated community, I would expect to be noticed as a stranger and behave appropriately.
So the punishment is death?
No…the unfortunate unintentional consequence is death…would we have this conversation if TM called 911 or went home instead of approaching GZ?
Of course not but I would have gotten home as fast as I could. He could have called the police if he was scared. He attacked first and obviously was the better fighter.
The one having a gun was the “better fighter” I suppose.
Rich: would we have this conversation if GZ had called 911 and went home instead of approaching TM?
Great question. The answer to both is no. We know that TM approached GZ (poor decision on his part). Would we be having this discussion if TM approached GZ and did not strike him, beat him, and strike his head to the cement? I teach my students to walk away from danger. Forget folish pride, be safe, avoid needless confrontation. He made GZ a factor in his life when in fact GZ should have been a nonissue.
In an interview on the radio today, a Rev. Harriman (sp?) explained that in the “hood” (his words) young black males are raised to not take any crap from anyone and stand their ground (my words) and confront the situation. So, TM confronted GZ on the pretense of being followed after showing some aggression walking around GZs car in a manner of standing up to this stranger who was so interested in his business. I wish TM had walked on home but he wouldn’t let it go. And neither would GZ. Is this the environment many young black males are experiencing in America? I’ve only raised girls and my husband (their father) often suggested more forceful measures to confront bullies or troublemakers at school. He would tell them one punch and the situation would be over. Meanwhile, I am in the background wringing my hands with worry that they would get in trouble. Believe me, on the occasion that my daughters had to defend themselves, learning to stand up to someone always did the trick. In this case, these two males were at the wrong place at the wrong time and both had perceptions of the encounter unique to their own experiences. It seems absolutely normal for someone to be suspect in an area where multiple burglaries had occurred and descriptions of suspects matched those of TM. And TM’s experiences led him to stand his ground and confront anyone who may be scrutinizing him. If it weren’t that way, he would have sauntered on home in the rain and nothing would have happened on that fateful night. It is a tragedy, but from adversity, we gain strength. I welcome an honest dialogue about racism in this country. It cuts both ways. There is a ton of prejudice against Caucasians, too. We are seen as capitalistic greedy elitists who don’t give a damn about other people. We hate non whites, we don’t care about the poor, we live a privileged life, etc…until we all put our petty resentments aside and begin to think of ourselves as one people, we can only anticipate more events such as this one to keep us grounded in the premise that it’s them/us against the other. Right now, we are a seriously divided country which always leads to conquering of the greatness we all know that it can be.
Excellent points Sandy. Why was Trayvon not allowed to Stand His Ground and protect himself from someone who was following him in his car with a gun?
Sorry, but Stand Your Ground was not argued in this case. Facts, please make sure that only facts are used to make a point.
This is just another example of how silly this issue has become. Martin didn’t have a chance to ‘stand his ground’. Tell me what do you call Martin’s action of punching Zimmerman in the face…sitting on his chest and hitting him? What is that called?
Martin was primed for an altercation. Preceding that night, he had just been suspended from school for the second time, sent away from home 200 miles and unsupervised in a foreign town. Anger fueled his actions that night. Zimmerman didn’t know what hit him!
I’d felt threatened for my life, too. And I’d wished I’d had a gun to fully protect myself from a strapping 17 year old full of anger. My teenager would have been on housebound duties if he’d been caught with stolen jewelry (just holding it for a friend…don’t they always say that!), pot possession & writing grafitti on property. You betcha he wouldn’t have any freedoms for long enough until he’d learned his lesson. And he wouldn’t have any money in his pockets, much less $40+. He would be working a job of some kind to pay back any social debts he accrued in his little fling with breaking at least 3 laws. His school decided, by law, to handle it as a disciplinary issue instead of informing police. How is that “progressive” idea working out? His parents failed Trayvon, so did the school system and the law enforcement agency in his hometown. He was on a track of crime by 16. Zimmerman happened along at just the wrong time. What a tragedy for everyone.
Trayvon’s parents, black leaders, the black culture and president Obama are who among others failed this kid. Being raised with the typical ‘angry black man’ attitude which instills… everyone is against you…all whites are racists….manners and civility is not cool…trashy words and attitudes are much better then manners and common courtesy…rap music telling these kids that they are all tough ‘gangstas’ who fight first and talk later. All these issues came together and are responsible for this kids death. Think for a moment if Trayvon’s encounter with Zimmerman was one where Martin tells Zimmerman he lives around the corner and is going home. Both men would have probably just exchanged some small talk and went their own separate ways.
Leonidas, your last few thoughts are perhaps the most common sense thinking I’ve heard yet about this case. That is how civilized people behave. Lack of civility is crushing the joy of living in this country. It all starts at home and from what I observe out and about my community, many parents don’t have a clue how to raise their children…just as their own parents lacked the skills, as well. If this cycle is not broken soon, it will continue to perpetuate into our society. Now I worry about my future grandchildren facing the challenges of cohabitating with the likes of the next generation of poorly raised children. No wonder our population rate is on the decline. THAT”S a whole other topic of discussion though it is being fueled by a lack of desire to bring a child into this messed up culture. Got lots of work to do and each of us can help one person, one moment, one day at a time. America, we love you but your citizens are really in trouble. God bless both the Martin and Zimmerman families today and may we begin to heal ourselves right now.
I too worry about the future of our country. Not so much for me but for my daughter just starting college. What she will face, having been raised in a family that taught her to conduct herself like a ‘young lady’ in all situations. Will she be the ‘butt of the jokes’ of her fellow 18 years olds because she displays manners and civility? Yes…I truly worry for the kind of society she will face in the future.
It is called misguided aggression, anger, poor decision making, poor conflict resolution skills, criminal behavior….shall I go on? Stand Your Ground is the choice once you have no other choices. TM sought out GZ (the “cracker”). He had 359 degrees of flight options to ensure his safety. He sought the 1 degree that brought him face to face with GZ. TM wasn’t surrounded by fences, walls, or other impediments to his flight. He made a very bad decision. Based on his racist comment, and history & knowledge of fighting, TM used his bravado to confront, strike, and pummel GZ.
TM comes from a family of educated family members. He was not raised in an oppressed area, denied an education, left to raise himself. He had a nice upbringing. He had caring parents. His, yes his!, self portrayal is contradictory of the person his parents raised him to be. He bragged about fighting on his twitter & Facebook accounts. He posed with a gun. Why? His parents taught him better. Why the drug use? Why the drugs (marijuana) in his system on the day he died. His parents raised him better. His mom is a class act. He let her down time & again with bad decision making. He was not with her that night as a result of a school disciplinary action. He has a pattern of poor decision making. This one turned out tragic for him.
Listen, I hate gas, weapons, and violence. I hate music and movies that objectifies
women, promotes violence, and glorifies anarchy. I hate vigilantism as well and sadly we are seeing it in the streets of our cities as a result of this decision. I think that only the courts should adjudicate the cases of injustice.
TM had access to police, attorneys, and the court system if he thought he was being profiles or harassed. Had he taken the mature route, you and I could find something else to argue about…one that does not include the tragic death of a misguided 17 year old.
Well said….
Leonidas, Sorry for the typos in my last e-mail response. I am typing while traveling to a meeting. My iPad auto correct is not cooperating with my fat fingers.
No worries…I have that same problem…fat fingers that don’t fit little keys.
If you are black and you wear a hoodie and you walk through a gated community, you should expect to die?
Is that true if you are white and wear a hoodie?
I guess the whole “zip code shouldn’t determine your” blah, blah, blah mantra falls apart when it comes to walking or entering into gated communities, “private” beaches, country clubs, etc.
Be careful where you walk. Try not to look suspicious.
Still wondering what would happen if a 75-year-old white woman in a hoodie walked through Zimmerman’s neighborhood.
Exactly right, Diane. Zimmerman profiled Trayvon, saw a criminal, a threat, a danger in a black youth walking in a hoodie, no matter he was doing nothing illegal, and that every person has a right to walk any public street. Zimmerman pursued Trayvon and provoked the encounter which led to Z pulling his gun and killing T. If T is being chased and harassed by someone, he does not have to be polite and courteous, he can tell the pursuer to f-off and leave him alone. If the pursuer continues to harass a teenage boy, he is provoking a fight, with a deadly secret in his pocket, the gun only Z carried. Z was guilty of harassment, menacing, and wreckless disregard for human life, all of which the inept state prosecutor could have presented convincingly if he had brought some passion to the task. This is where white supremacy takes us—dead black folks out walking in the rain.
Was Z charged with the things you say he was guilty of?
I think bad to FLERP!’s posts where he talks about some of the lessons that should have been learned:
And don’t overcharge defendants.
Murder II was a gross overcharge from the beginning and everybody knew it, including the prosecutors, who did the best they could with a weak hand. The indictment was terribly weak. This was clearly a manslaughter case, and that should have been the charge, but politics drove the indictment, which is never good to see.
I think we need to respect the verdict because the prosecution, IMO, screwed up. They did not vet their witnesses, and the defense was able to use their own witnesses against them. I am not sure if they even brought up, or were allowed to, the fact that Zimmerman is a liar and told the police his family was in financial trouble when donations were pouring in. As a result, he was released from jail until that lie was exposed. Or, his interview on FOX News where he said it was God’s will. I truly believe in my heart that Zimmerman set Martin up for the fight knowing he would use his gun. But therein lies the doubt a jury must consider.
There was also the problem with the evidence handling and the time it took for the State to finally arrest him. So much evidence that should have been gathered was lost.
I think we need to wait to hear from the jurors, who are now seem to be in hiding, to find out why the voted not guilty.
Now, I hope the Justice Department looks into this. Of course they will have to deal with the lack of evidence as well. But the reasons for the lack of evidence by the decision of the sheriff not to investigate should also be part of the Federal investigation.
I am also upset that it might not be impossible for the Martin family to seek justice in civil court since Stand Your Ground protects the shooter from such actions without a judge’s approval. And the law also allows for Zimmerman to collect lawyer fees from the Martins if they do take it to court and lose.
In the meantime, we should not be upset with the jurors and their verdict. Florida has a habit of losing cases because the DAs always seem to seek the wrong types of convictions for cases they cannot prove.
He was following someone who he believed was acting in an unusual manner given the rain. After he called 911 and had spoken to the dispatcher and was told to break off, he replied, OK and was then headed back to his truck. It was on the way back to his truck that he stated Martin attacked him. There were 4 minutes between when Martin ended the conversation with the girl, and when the fight started. He only had to walk less than 300 yards to his home. In the rain, no less!! What did he do for those 4 minutes? GZ was heading back to the truck after his conversation with the dispatcher but that was after the conversation Martin had with the girl. As for his being a child? Did you see the cutouts the defense presented in their summation comparing Martin and GZ? Martin was much larger than GZ. All the BS about profiling in the Media is based upon the bogus MSNBC “phone call, not the real one. If GZ was profiling anyone, it was someone acting suspicious in his neighborhood. Why hasn’t the Media mentioned he mentored black kids?
He was headed back to his truck when Zimmerman attacked him??
That’s Zimmerman’s story and he’s sticking to it. Martin wasn’t given a chance to tell his side.
Yesterday over 2,000 people led a peaceful protest in Times Square, NYC. When will teachers across the country come out in solidarity against the Reforms and Duncan agenda in their own home towns. I think Obama will take notice. And with the midterm elections in a few months, this is the perfect time to do it!!! I hope the BAT leaders will consider this and move for A Day of Teacher Solidarity.
I would not like the job of doing a headcount counting in Times Square.
Why not? It probably pays better than teaching in some states.
True. I’m sure it’s easier: Make up number, go home.
What’s your problem??
I’m sorry? I mean to say the idea of a headcount in Times Square is ridiculous.
I doubt it…Chicago where high school kids can’t read on a 5th grade level are averaging about $75,000 a year, NOT including benefits. The same city where there is a dozen shootings a week. Hey I guess none of those murdered teenagers ‘look like our president’s son if he had one…isn’t that interesting.
Leonids, teachers in Chicago are not paid enough.
What would be enough?
Well…when you put it that way (Teachers in Chicago aren’t paid enough) how could anyone argue against that. I’m not quite sure where you reside, however, where I am $75,000 a year for part time work is not only good, its fantastic (remember, benefits are on TOP of that). Of course when one is ‘honest’ with themselves they have to address the fact that the results of these ‘under paid’ teachers are not only subpar but abysmal! As I pointed out…HS kids in Chicago read on about a 5th grade level…half never graduate HS and the ones that do are most pushed through the system just to get rid of them. Now maybe in your view of life this is acceptable, but not where I’m from.
But it was reformed by Vallas and then reformed by Arne, Renaissance 2000, who is now the secretary of education. That’s how he got his promotion. Not that all your facts are correct. However, there is a revolving door of reformers reforming each others’ reforms with no success….what’s up with that Leo?
Well apparently the Chicago teacher’s union doesn’t know either…that’s their figures. In fact their response to be called the ‘highest paid city for teachers in the country’ was that they were outraged!!!…they responded that they were only SECOND in the country, behind New York City teachers. Point being…only in government services can you receive the highest compensation for the LOWEST performance/results.
Leonidas,
Teachers in Chicago are not paid $75,000 for part-time work. That’s a full-time job. For a professional living in a high-cost urban area, that is not a high wage.
Any thoughts on what they should be paid in Chicago? I know it is a very practice question, but it is one the the school district has to answer.
Well maybe we have a different understanding of the term ‘part time’. Working less then 40 hours a week…having two half months off a year, while receiving time off for every legal holiday…I would call that ‘part time’. Now I understand the ‘talking points’ for teachers is ‘yes but we work many hours AFTER our classes let out, so its full time.
No…see at my job I work 40 hours at the office…and then to ‘get ahead’ and sometimes just to ‘keep up’ I work in the evening at home.
So please, if you want to use that point…save it for people who don’t actually work and don’t understand how many hours people have to put at their jobs in todays world.
“So please, if you want to use that point…save it for people who don’t actually work and don’t understand how many hours people have to put at their jobs in todays world.”
Oh, you do NOT want to attempt a debate on this topic. Your ignorant commentary is far too outrageous for you to see how truly wrong you are.
Care to?
Justice in America is very often obtained through money and influence. Zimmerman’s attorney was better than the prosecutor and argued for reasonable doubt. The prosecution should have argued for manslaughter from the beginning instead of second degree murder. Since there was no eye witness testimony from anyone who witnessed the entire event, the defense attorney had an advantage arguing that the death was tragic and that there was reasonable doubt. For people of color and for those who are poor there is a different standard of justice where the scales of justice tip in the wrong direction.
The state overcharged due to political pressure. Plain and simple. If he were charged with manslaughter as opposed to 2nd degree murder, we may have had a different outcome. The political bigwigs descended on Florida, and the prosecutors had to go big to appease them.
Yes, manslaughter was an included charge, but it was added after all of the testimony…after the state failed to prove its case of 2nd degree murder.
Aggravated assault with a firearm or even involuntary manslaughter would have been easier to prove than 2nd degree murder.
Exclusive: Jesse Lee Peterson wants Americans to take stand against intimidation
By Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson
Rachel Jeantel, the troubled young woman who was speaking on the phone to Trayvon Martin just before he was killed, testified in George Zimmerman’s second-degree murder trial that Martin called Zimmerman a “creepy a– cracka” before their violent confrontation.
I’ve been warning for the past 23 years that black racism is out-of-control – it appears black racism killed Trayvon Martin, and Paula Deen’s career!
Since the shooting of Martin, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the NAACP (along with the liberal media) have done their best to portray Martin as an innocent kid tiptoeing through the tulips who just happened to be the victim of a racist white vigilante (even though Zimmerman is half Hispanic).
Blatant hostility and racism toward whites is common among black youth. Martin’s friend Rachel Jeantel admitted that where she comes from the term “cracka” is a common term used to describe whites.
Before his death, Martin was suspended from school; he was caught with a marijuana pipe; it was reported he had burglary tools in his locker; and it was recently revealed that pictures of marijuana plants and someone suspected to be Martin holding a gun were found on his cell phone. Does this sound like a well-adjusted teenager?
Trayvon Martin was the product of a broken home. He was also a victim of the corrupt civil-right leaders who peddle racism infecting the minds of young blacks. Martin’s parents (Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton) stood next to race hustlers and knowingly allowed this case to be framed as a race issue. As a result, supporters have taken to Twitter, threatening to kill Zimmerman and random white people if he gets off:
•@HotTopicLys: f**k Don West. f*** George Zimmerman. I’ll kill both them n***as.
•@StayFocus_Jones: ima kill a white person in self-defense if Zimmerman go free lol on everything.
•@ZackSlaterExe: If they don’t kill Zimmerman Ima kill me a cracka.
•@BE4L_Pervis: If Zimmerman win, I’m gonna kill a white kid by mistake.
All the threats and screams of racism from these thugs, as well as Sharpton and Jackson, have nothing to do with justice for Trayvon! Just as the uproar over celebrity chef Paula Deen’s use of the word “N–-er” decades ago has nothing to do with eradicating racism.
Deen has been excoriated after she admitted she had used that word in a deposition over a case accusing her of condoning an atmosphere of sexual harassment and racism in her businesses.
Paula Deen has apologized profusely to everybody and their mama! She released statements, videos and appeared on the “Today” show begging for forgiveness from blacks.
Jesse Jackson (of all people!) has said his organization plans to investigate the matter and that he will help the embattled chef overhaul her image. She didn’t owe an apology to all black people. Jesse Jackson is not the gatekeeper to black America, and she doesn’t need him to remake her image.
Since Paula’s admission, the Food Network, Wal-Mart, Caesars Entertainment, Smithfield Foods, Sears and diabetes drug maker Novo Nordisk are no longer doing business with her. This type of overreaction by majority white-owned companies is the height of cowardice.
Just as in the Zimmerman case, it’s time for people to take a stand against all forms of racial intimidation!
By apologizing to all blacks, Deen and her former sponsors are unwittingly sending the message that just the accusation alone is enough to get whites to cave. This only encourages vultures like Jackson and Sharpton to swoop in and exploit these incidents for personal gain.
Jackson claims he’s going to investigate Deen’s past use of a racial slur. Did anyone investigate his past use of racial slurs when he used the slur “hymie” and “hymietown” respectively when referring to Jews and New York City? Or when Jackson accused Barack Obama of “talking down to black folks” by lecturing them on moral issues?
If Jackson, Sharpton and the NAACP hadn’t jumped on the Trayvon Martin case and made it into a racial matter, nobody would have heard of it. His death would have gone unnoticed, just like the more than 500 black youths that were murdered in Chicago in black-on-black violence last year.
The attention on the Zimmerman trial is not about justice for Trayvon; it’s about intimidation and dividing the American people along race.
I hear from many white people that they’ve given up on trying to help or deal with blacks. If they hire blacks, they’re afraid to correct them because they may cry racism. God forbid if they have to lay off or fire a black employee – all hell might break loose! This is putting fear in white people because they can’t win either way.
Whites have to overcome the fear of being called “racist.” Blacks have to be on the side of good and stand for what is right, regardless of race. In order to conquer these racist black leaders, we must see clearly that the uproar in the Trayvon Martin and Paula cases is NOT about justice.
Original Source: http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/black-racism-killed-trayvon-and
Of course it was about race. GZ though that TM didn’t belong in his neighbourhood and rang the police even though TM wasn’t doing anything wrong.
If it had been an older white women, he wouldn’t have given her a second thought.
I know. Older white women usually don’t burglar homes, do they? We all profile each other and to deny that is ignorant. I am really sorry that young black males are notorious for crime in this country and it’s high time we start admitting the truth about it so we can begin to resolve it for the safety of everyone, black and white. GZ should have never got out of his car and TM should have never stopped his walk home. But, nooooo…they just had to exert their prowess and both of them lost in the end. TM has no life and GZ will never have one that is free from hatred and threats, not to mentioin the torment of knowing he killed another human being. The families will suffer, too. Look at the bigger picture here. We have a crime crisis in this country and it’s getting worse exponentially while we bicker and fight about one incident among thousands. I weep for everyone involved and pray for them, too.
Well said Sandy
Megan, I hope you are not an educator. With your reasoning skills, I am frightened that you may have influence over school children. Forget black/white (for the record, Zimmerman is Hispanic-American, but don’t let facts get in the way of your thinking) and focus on the case. You better hope to God that in a court of law you are judged based on the facts. TM and GZ had their day in court. TM is gone. Sad. Terrible. Tragic. But this race baiting will never reverse what happened. What you are doing is crucifying GZ to further an agenda that can not be sustained by the facts of this case. You weaken your argument with a false premise.
How does a dead person have their day in court?
O.k., you’re kidding, right? Of course he had his day in court. Why else would they hear a case in court if he couldn’t get a fair trial? I really hope you’re pulling my leg. If GZ was found guilty, would you then think TM had his day in court?
TM never got to have his day in court because he was dead. His side of the story was never told.
“I hear from many white people that they’ve given up on trying to help or deal with blacks.” It will take too much time to deconstruct this nonsense. I read this post twice and I laugh and grit my teeth simultaneously. All of the post that try to explain away the truth, that if Trayvon had been the one to survive, no way that he wouldnt have been arrested that night and when the trial was over, 25 to life.
Just curious. How many black killings of whites have been given this much coverage and sparked this much outrage?
There was also testimony from someone on the phone with Martin who said he was being followed.
…and Holder who was in trouble just a few weeks ago, and in the process of being fired, is now Mr. Hero who will be taking this case “on””.
Hundreds of killings every day somewhere in our country, and this particular one makes the national news? Curious.
This is a tragedy for both familIes, and Travon’s life is over. It is not the time to make things worse by prolonging the media blitz and thus the suffering of both familIes.
Who will gain from that? When you think of the answer to that question, you will know that it will be someone looking for his/her 15 minutes ,of fame”….pity….
Who will gain from prolonging the Trayvon Martin case if the feds act. First of all, the feds won’t act, they’ll hem and haw and say they are looking into it but Obama and Holder don’t want to touch it any more than replying about the largest public school close down in history happening in Chicago. Who will benefit? Well, Geo Z will get his gun back to hunt another day, one juror will get her new book deal and her time in the spotlight, Florida will continue to enforce bad laws and bad court decisions. America will continue to insist there is no more racism because we have a black President and life will go on until another incident happens, and it will.
Evidentally the police in the original arrest knew there was nothing to hold GZ on. They arrested him and then released him because they said there was no crime committed. They thought it was pretty cut and dried. It was only after Obama got involved that it degenerated into a race issue. After the professional race baiters got involved, it became an even bigger race issue. The Revs Al and Jesse were johnny-on-spot to start stirring the pot, and they never stopped.
One of the posters blamed this on ALEC and the “stand your ground law.” They weren’t defending the stand your ground law, they were defending the right to self defense. Regardless of who had a gun or who didn’t, as long as we have the 2nd amendment and you have a lawful concealed carry permit, then GZ was entirely within his rights to carry a gun.
After inciting people to riot if GZ was acquited, the race baiters were calling for calm heads to prevail. They wanted people to keep cool and not riot. Seems kind of counter-intuitive to say that after beating the race drum from the day the trial started. Obama weighed in again and urged people to “riot” peacefully. Didn’t seem to make much difference to the people in Oakland, CA. They went on a rampage. The people who blocked off a part of a highway in CA didn’t seem to have gotten the message either. And the people who burned an American flag in “honor” of TM. Guess they didn’t get the message either.
The judge and the whole prosecution team needs to be brought up on charges.
With all this said, I have to admit, when I heard that there 6 women on the jury and that was it, I thought for sure they were going to hang GZ. However, the evidence just wasn’t there. The prosecution withheld evidence, the state atty refused to release evidence that would have shown that the original charge was patently wrong. NBC went so far as to doctor the 911 tapes. The prosecution rested and the defense called for a “move to acquit” since there obviously wasn’t enough evidence to prove one way or the other what had happened or didn’t happen. The judge totally ignored the request and pressed on. It should have been obvious that the prosecution had a bad hand when they tried to work in child abuse. She even badgered GZ by continuously asking him if he was going to testify. TM was no child. He was a 6″1″ man.
As to the TM family suing, they already got $1M from the homeowners association of the gated community. The trial is over, the verdict is in. Probably not the one that the race baiters were hoping for, but a verdict nonetheless. The DoJ and Obama don’t need to pursue federal civil rights violation charges. Just leave well enough alone and let it go.
After seeing how the death threats and worse started, if I was one of the jurors, I think I’d be in hiding too. When the verdict was read, the twittersphere went nuts wtih death threats to everybody involved in the defense of GZ, including the children of one of the jurors. Where were the race baiters then? They were too busy convincing their people that they were entitled to see GZ found guilty and it was their right to riot as reparations.
If you want to take this even further, then what is the difference between killing a 17 year old regardless of race and killing a baby in the womb? But that is a discussion for another day.
Oh dear….time to abandon this thread. We, as a nation, are in more trouble than I thought.
Linda,
I only came back on to tell you I don’t recognize a majority of these names that are posting. There are groups who get paid for following these stories and writing such comments. They are called trolls.
I like you decided no longer to respond. But since it’s you, I had to tell you I did look up the story of the juror who is writing a book. During the selection process, this juror said she thought the protests to have Zimmerman arrested was “rioting”. Interesting choice of words. Yet, she was selected to serve on the jury. Meantime, her husband is a lawyer. And together they have signed with an agent. No wonder the jurors were taking copious notes. In the end, it’s all about the almighty dollar. I hope no publishers decide to bite, but of course they will.
She did say however that she believed Zimmerman pursued Martin and not the other way around as claimed by many trolls.
I just have to abandon this thread. I’ll see and look for you on another one later in the week. I have to focus on something else. Thank you.
Linda & schoolgal: just consider that a very short time ago one of the jurors was on Anderson Cooper.
Link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/15/anderson-cooper-zimmerman-juror/2519569/
Although not identified, consider just three points: A), she says that “Zimmerman did have the right to carry his pistol, but he should have stayed in his car that night and not have gotten out to follow Trayvon” and B), she said that “she thinks it was Trayvon threw the first punch in the subsequent physical altercation that night and that she believed Zimmerman’s account of what happened that night” and C), that she thinks that “both sets of parents likely believe that it was their child calling for help on the 911 tape. “They are your kids you want to believe they are innocent,” she said. As for the juror herself, she was “sure” that it was Zimmerman calling for help.”
Put all three together. Should have stayed in car—then nobody would have been hurt. Trayvon threw the first punch; literally impossible to verify. The voice calling for help belonged to Zimmerman; literally impossible to verify.
I have served on jury panels. If she is anything like the other five, they did not exercise fair and reasonable judgment.
schoolgal: of course trolls are posting here. Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, haters gotta hate. Try following a thread on immigration if you want to see the trolls really come out in force…
My thanks to you both for posting.
This too shall pass.
🙂
I think the problem facing the jury was not that these claims were impossible to verify, but that they were impossible to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.
I agree Linda and schoolgal about the “new” names on here. They are definitely trolls. They get off on saying preposterous things on blogs and social media, and delight in seeing people react to what they say. It makes them feel like they have some power and control in their life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
AHA! They are using the magic word–“liberals”–that telltale sign that they are indeed trolls. I should have known. Wonder which website told them to come here and start spewing rhetoric? Hmm, I’ll bet a simple search of the thread title may yield some clues.
Some people’s nonsense is another person’s common sense. Who are you to question and belittle someone’s opinion. Have yours while others have theirs. That’s the beauty of diversity, everyone does not think alike.
Sorry Paula…common sense is common sense. That’s is the essence of the term that it is ‘sense’…’common’ to everyone. It seems to me that today’s liberals actually believe there can be two parallel truths just by the power of their ‘agreement’…that somehow ‘two and two is four but it can also be three’. Sorry that isn’t the way the ‘real world’ works.
If you believe what one of the jurors whose writing a book about this said, none of the jurors thought race was an issue in the case. Amazing and blind on their parts. That’s why you have representative juries who are composed of diverse members of society.
I truly want to believe that a person on the jury really didn’t say that. But it’s interesting how members are already getting publishing deals. Race was a factor. And even if they couldn’t decide the case on race, it just goes to show how insensitive members of the jury were. Did they not see the people in the courtroom??
Yes…maybe some of the jurors are/will writie a book, how unthinkable….how unlike everyone else who has done the same thing. Schoolgal did you happen to notice how much money is being given to the parents of the children killed in CT? Can you tell me why the parents would need or accept money due to the death of their child. Was their 6 years olds supporting the family and thus they need financial help? You seem to be in denial as to how far our culture and our civility has declined over the past five years. How everyone now is a ‘victim’…and as victims we now deserve to be paid. I always suggest to my self righteous friends to first look in the mirror before they start pointing fingers.
Millions of dollars poured into CT from all over the world. The money was held in an account to determine what to do later. The money was donated. You are misinformed and quite repulsive in your assumptions. God help you.
You seem to be a a bit ‘lacking’ in the facts again. Yes the money was donated and while the almost $12 million dollars has yet to be distributed (they are projecting around $300,000 per person) how does that change or indicate that I am ‘misinformed’? Once again why would the families (not sure if you know the area, I do, but its not a financial deprived area) need or accept these monies…why would it not have been agreed immediately by all the families….that the money be donated to a children’s cancer fund, homeless families or the hundreds of other areas of need in our country? Why…because like those jurors who you ‘can’t believe’ would write a book, they too see nothing wrong in their actions.
No Linda…not god help me…god help our country, our fellow americans. Our fellow americans who have strength and courage in their ‘words’, but rarely in their actions.
Especially you
Give me a break! This is propaganda at its finest. If you feel your life is in danger, then you can defend yourself. If someone (anyone) jumps on me at night, then they should be prepared to die. A street fight is combat, and it’s your life or theirs. If I had a knife or gun on me (which I never do), and I thought my life was in danger, then I would use it. If I found a large brick or rock, then I would use that. I would bite or gouge their eyes or chop their windpipe. It is survival! If I knock someone down, then I will kick them hard enough to make sure they stay down. If I let them up, then they can pull a knife or gun and kill me. Anyone living in the ghetto knows this. Zimmerman didn’t know if this kid was armed or not. This is all about race. God forbid if Zimmerman were really 100% white. What about the thousands of white people who are raped and killed by black people, but never mentioned. It doesn’t fit into the victim plan, does it? There are good and bad people in every race and ethnicity.
If you don’t want your kids (anyone’s kids) to die, then teach them not to attack people or try to bash their head against the concrete. That would be sound advice. Liberal thinkers have a very distorted (faulty) view of mankind. Yes, there are evil people out there who will attack you and kill you, no problem, and you should be prepared to defend yourself. That is your legal right as an American. If you don’t want to get killed or maimed, then don’t attack people on the street. It isn’t some kind of game. Dr. Ravitch is dead wrong on this topic, and she is obviously believing the propaganda put forth in the media. Zimmerman didn’t shoot and kill some kid on his way to the library – he was attacked! When I am older and my boxing skills have diminished, I will always carry a firearm to protect myself and my loved ones. Every human being has a right to life. I feel sick to my stomach when I hear all of this liberal propaganda. I agree with the fight against school reform, but perhaps it would be better if you didn’t talk about these large propaganda campaigns in the media. Many teachers are smart enough to see right through them, and your backing of this “propaganda” is disheartening, and disillusioning to say the least.
There is already retaliation in Mississippi with an attack becauuse of the hatred and racism attack brought on by the media, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Eric Holder & Obama by painting Trayvon as an innocent bystander. TO
A man jogging alongside a Mississippi highway was abducted and beaten by three African-American men allegedly in retaliation of the George Zimmerman verdict.
Senatobia Police Chief Steve Holt said the victim, who is white, was jogging Sunday night along Highway 51 when the suspects pulled over and ordered him to get inside their car.
“One of them asked, ‘Do you know who Trayvon Martin was?’” Holt said. At that point, the men in the vehicle attacked the victim.
Memphis television station WREG reported the assailants told the victim, “This is for Trayvon.”The jogger was badly beaten and later dropped off on a road between Senatobia and Coldwater, Miss.
.This country is now in a state of upheaval and things better cool down or there will be more incidents like the one in Mississippi. MI PATRIOT, you are right on target with your words…
Here,here. We don’t agree with Harlan and he does tend to be insulting.
Paula,
I welcome disagreement. It makes the discussion interesting.
I do not tolerate insults.
One more crack from Harlan and he can go haunt someone else’s blog.
If Harlan could learn to attack issues and not people, if he could learn to write with less personal judgement of commentors, and if he could construct more fact based arguments, even the most polarized of people such as myself would find his thinking interesting while they disagree.
He has the potential. Who doesn’t?
But his is not a case of academic skills nearly as much as it is one of social skills.
If it were my blog, I’d do the same . . .
Diane, thanks to your blog many people could let off steam and present different viewpoints. That’s what’s so great about diversity, you get to hear all viewpoints, I like that. Thanks……..
Didn’t a jury of 6 women (including one ‘black or hispanic’) find him not guilty? (not innocent)? This was and still is, a political trial, tried in the media. Which I highly object to. Not only was he prosecuted, but still is persecuted. I thought we had respect for laws and trials here. I am surprised at what I am hearing, especially ‘progressive’ emails I get.
And it has no place here. Sorry.
PS I was not paid to write this.
In a sense, I think Zimmerman wasn’t charged initially for political reasons. The right wing has gotten these Stand Your Ground laws passed as part of their 2nd Amendment agenda. The police thought they couldn’t convict him with this law on the books, and it now looks like they were right. I know the case is more complicated than that, but that is a fair way to look at it.
Your response is not simple, it is intellectually lazy. Come on,you have to be better than this. Right?
This is ALEC-funded Stand Your Ground territory and ALEC’s intent is as destructive as NCLB. These are dual, well-funded assaults on the same communities and we must now get the Big Picture and begin joining forces to end the terrible trajectory of these efforts.
Imagine if GZ had just left it alone and not confronted Trayvon. But that didn’t happen and there will be repercussions on both sides. Just more recounting of numerous incidents that occur everyday all over America, some similar to this, others not. Stand your ground laws are bad and lead to escalation of situations. Denial of racism in America is even worst. It exists, even though we have a black president. I want the discussion, this country needs it just like the haves/have nots discussion.
Are you vaguely familiar with the case or simply changing the facts to suit your argument. TM sought out GZ, initiated contact with a vicious blow to the head, and sat over him to exact a beating upon him. Revisionist history is the catalyst for the outlandish protests we see growing in our country. You’re not helping with your rhetoric.
We can’t have a discussion about racism unless we acknowledge that racism is not something only “white” people exercise. Do you posit in your proposed conversation that African-Americans, Hispanics, Asians, etc, are also capable of racism? Our self-proclaimed African-American leaders such a the criminal Al Sharpton and adulterer & shake-down artist Jesse Jackson have publicly state that they can’t be. Jeremiah Wright stirs the pot with his hate speech. All call themselves men of God to veil heir real agenda. They do not praise the same God I do. Dr. Ben Carson, Gen Alen West, Codi Rice, etc., they should be our leaders and voices of reason in the African-American culture.
We need to be outraged about a long list of things atrocities, this case is not one of them.
That’s your opinion Rich. I don’t share it neither do I share your interpretation of what happened with GZ and Trayvon. Trayvon was not the agressor and didn’t have a gun. GZ was the agressor with the gun who murdered Trayvon, That’s my take on it and I’m sorry it doesn’t please you. Stalk me, profile me, just don’t shoot m down because I’m defending my position.
I learned something interesting from a friend who is a defense attorney in NYC. In that jurisdiction, the sidewalk is considered a weapon.
Paula…if we are going to discuss this issue as ‘adult’, lets try to use the actual definition of the words we use. The word ‘aggressor’ comes from the latin word ‘aggredi’…to attack. When Martin and Zimmerman came ‘face to face’, Martin punched Zimmerman in the face, an act of ‘aggression’. Thus Martin was obviously the ‘aggressor’. Again, lets try to keep the ’emotion’ out of the conversation and deal with the facts…it will be far more productive.
So bottom line, Paula, you didn’t follow the case, read the transcripts, and you don’t understand the law & the legal proceedings. Don’t minimize my words by saying it is my interpretation of what happened. There were eye & ear witnesses who pieced the evenings’ events for the jury and anyone with an unbiased mind who is willing to let the facts decide the fate of a person in the defendent’s chair. If justice is blind, you don’t get to have interpretations. You don’t get to infer, guess, feel, or surmise. You have to know based on real evidence.
As for stalking, would the facts not suggest that by coming back to confront GZ, TM was the stalker? GZ was doing what a neighborhood watchman is suppose to do. TM had a choice that night. His false bravado failed him that night and now his parents grieve and a man’s life has been altered forever.
Leo, semantics aside, as I told Rich, my interpretation of the events that lead up to Trayvon’s death is different than the two of you. You keep the emotion out of it, I can’t and don’t want to. Let’s be ‘adult’ enough to respect that.
Emotions in a situation like this only generates more emotions, anger and historically violence. Is that your goal?
i’m sorry, diane, but i have to disagree with what you say in your post. ‘stand your ground’ was not an issue. it was ordinary self-defense. i’m fairly sure that if you review enough of the evidence you’ll see that the verdict was consistent with the known facts.
Leo, whatever. Have a good day.
Well Paula…I think what you are saying is that you may be final seeing the ‘facts’ without the ‘cloud’ of your emotions. My compliments…it is hard sometimes to separate our emotions from truth.