Bill Kristol is a Never Trumper who writes for The Bulwark. He reminds me of my conservative roots. I have always feared mobs. Once mobs form, it’s impossible to know what direction they will take and who is leading them. In the few times in my life that I inadvertently found myself stuck in a mob, I was terrified and got out as quickly as I could. There is something about a mob that is fundamentally in opposition to rationalism and the democratic temperament. Disagree with me if you wish, but please, be civil.
Kristol writes:
The AP reports on this week’s spring breakdown:
Columbia canceled in-person classes, dozens of protesters were arrested at New York University and Yale, and the gates to Harvard Yard were closed to the public Monday as some of the most prestigious U.S. universities sought to defuse campus tensions over Israel’s war with Hamas.
More than 100 pro-Palestinian demonstrators who had camped out on Columbia’s green were arrested last week, and similar encampments have sprouted up at universities around the country as schools struggle with where to draw the line between allowing free expression while maintaining safe and inclusive campuses.
At New York University, an encampment set up by students swelled to hundreds of protesters throughout the day Monday. The school said it warned the crowd to leave, then called in the police after the scene became disorderly and the university said it learned of reports of “intimidating chants and several antisemitic incidents.” Shortly after 8:30 p.m., officers began making arrests.
Here’s a tweet from Jay Nordlinger that’s stuck with me: “There is scarcely anything in this world more terrifying than a mob. It is, frankly, pretty much at the root of my politics: this anti-mob feeling. Madisonian conservatism (or Madisonian liberalism, if you like) has struck me as right from a young age. Popular passions can kill.”
As we say on Twitter: 💯. Or even 💯💯.
Mobs can kill. They can also destroy the fabric of a civic order. They can disfigure the politics of a liberal, representative democracy. And so a healthy society will deter, will tamp down, will reject as much as possible mob action and mob spirit.
Now it’s of course true that there will always be elements of mob spirit in our politics, in our life. Some of the spirit of the mob runs, one might say, through each human soul.
A sound society suppresses that spirit to some extent. And since it can’t be altogether suppressed, a healthy social order also channels it, so it can be indulged and released harmlessly. A liberal democracy can have lots of sports fans.
But of course being a “fan” is the civilized version of being a fanatic.
Even in a healthy society, resistance to fanaticism is always fragile. And once fanaticism is unleashed, once the mob is empowered, it is hard to restore order and civility and decency.
Which is one reason thoughtful defenders of democracy have always feared demagogues, have sought to thwart their emergence, and have opposed them when they do rise.
Demagogues who can stoke mob spirit are dangerous. The problem with Donald Trump isn’t simply his policies, or his personal character. It’s his willingness, or rather his eagerness, to stoke the spirit of the mob. Trump’s posts on Truth Social condition some among us to the mob spirit as much as the hateful chants at Columbia or Yale condition others. MAGA is an expression of mob spirit. The campus encampments are manifestations of mob spirit.
And mob spirit is always nearer at hand than those with a sunny view of human nature would like. The lynch mobs in the South often consisted of respectable citizens, pillars of their communities. Many Berliners who participated in Kristallnacht went back to their normal office and jobs the next day.
So I’m with Jay on this. It seems simple, but it’s important: Be anti-mob. Because resisting and combating mob spirit is central to our political and social well-being.
And not just when that spirit is on the other side politically. Indeed, it’s more important to resist the mob when it claims to be acting for purposes you agree with.
Yes, it’s true that the consequences of the mob spirit taking over one of our two major political parties are greater than those of the mob spirit erupting on some elite college campuses. But lesser evils are still evil, and they can grow into greater ones. And history also suggests that indulging the mob spirit on one side soon enough empowers it on another. The mob spirit must be resisted across the board.
Resisting the mob isn’t all it takes to establish a sound society or a healthy politics. But it’s a necessary start.
—William Kristol
On another note, I am listening right now to the Extreme Court hearing on whether a president has absolute immunity. It’s astonishing to me that I am actually listening to such a thing. It’s so bizarre that any court would actually consider it a question whether a president is a king.
Bob, I am at a doctor’s office and can’t listen. Has any Justice asked the inevitable question: would a President be immune from prosecution if he ordered an FBI team to murder his political rivals?
Yes. And the answer from Trump’s team is that there are Constitutional remedies in such cases–impeachment and conviction, for example.
Impeachment requires a 2/3 vote in the Senate.
The last time Trump was impeached by the House, after he inspired the Jan 6 insurrection, the Republicans said that if he committed a crime, he should be charged in the courts. Now that he’s in Court, his legal team says he should have been impeached.
I blame Mitch McConnell. Trump should have been convicted by the Senate for trying to overthrow the election. McConnell probably thought that 1/6 finished Trump. He was wrong.
So awful that McConnell did not do his duty.
I just tuned in a few minutes ago, so I might have missed other instances of this.
I plan to read a transcript later. This is fascinating.
There has been some discussion of an argument, accepted on both sides, that when a president’s action goes to core powers, such as protecting the country by ordering the murder of a terrorist, then he is immune.
Murdering a terrorist is not the same as ordering the murder of Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama.
No. And I think that’s what the distinction between immunity for personal actions and immunity for actions under the authorities of the president under Article 2. This might be a major framing in the ultimate decision by the court.
To be sure, these aren’t frivolous distinctions, although the argument (made by Trump’s counsel, who must be recovering from a chest cold because he sounded like Winnie-the-Pooh) that Trump’s conduct alleged in the DC indictment was pursuant to his Article 2 authority is ridiculous.
yes
I fear that the end result of any Supreme Court decision will be to muddy the waters, call for more deliberations, and make a trial impossible before the elections. That’s Trump’s goal.
I wish I could say that’s unlikely.
Diane: . . . or murder everyone on the SCOTUS? The odd thing is that, if the president had complete immunity, no one would want to talk to him (or her), and certainly not to tell the truth, for fear of provoking anger and being murdered.
It’s the death of truth. And the real question they are addressing is “do we want a democracy and the freedoms it affords, or do we want a fascist dictatorship?” CBK
I listened to excerpts of the hearings and was shocked to hear Alito, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh trying to divert attention from what Trump had done and to trivialize it. Barrett, to my surprise, asked sharp questions. I’m afraid the outcome will be a ponderous decision that sends the case to the lower courts for new hearings and new determinations about which of Trump’s actions were official and which were personal.
To learn more, go to Twitter and read the brilliant thread by @JudgeLuttig. He’s a Republican. He was appalled by the oral arguments.
Diane: Lawrence Tribe didn’t have very nice things to say (!) about Alito et al either . . . Tribe was on Lawrence O’Donnell (MSNBC) last night also. He has also written some, shall we say, “incisive” criticisms of the court at least twice in the New York Book Review (still prescient) the August 17, 2023 issue, and then the most recent one.
Thanks for the link, CBK
I love to listen to Laurence Tribe. He’s brilliant.
I read someplace that Trump claims he was acting in his official capacity to protect the election results because the election was fraudulent. The man redefines chutzpah daily.
Christine, Trump never ceases to amaze.
That is what his freaking counsel is arguing before the Supreme Court. Ludicrous. A sane court would simply kick him out on his tushy.
Christine: the same chutzpah is now a predictable thing. Think the worst you can think about what Trump will say or do, and he will go you one better.
The international “seat” of criminal activity; that’s what he wants to occupy. The least of it would be bye-bye free press.
While we’re at it, what do you think the hand movements are when Trump is talking. It looks like the imaginary equivalent of shoveling and funneling his mental sxxt out on whoever is listening.
CBK
I think Jamelle Bouie of the NYT said it best the other day:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opinion/the-small-business-tyrant-has-a-favorite-political-party.html
I had the same feeling listening to the proceedings as I had during the Iran-contra hearings. It felt momentous.
“Resisting the mob isn’t all it takes to establish a sound society or a healthy politics. But it’s a necessary start.”
This is a very Thomas Hobbes thing to say. While I too fear the mob, I look for the social contract (Hobbes idea) to give us more than just the quelling of the mob. Let us try to stop the mob before it decides that there is no alternative but to gather and chant. There were years of mismanagement that led the mob to storm the Bastille in July of 1789. These years of mismanagement also led the French leadership opposed to the King to refrain from criticism of the mob. It was a fateful decision that disintegrated into chaos and civil war.
People who think they have no voice make mobs. Then the mob makes itself a new thing, usually terrifying. We need for people to feel they have a voice.
Did the mob that burned down Tulsa’s Black Wall Street in 1919 feel that they needed a voice? Or the mob that torched Rosewood, Florida? Or the mob that kynched Leo Frank in Georgia?I hope to live out my life without ever participating in a mob or being the target of one.
The Tulsa mob and the vigilante mob that robbed Wilmington citizens of their civil rights both felt aggrieved within the system. I did not intend to sound like I was supporting mob violence. Neither of the groups above deserved to feel aggrieved toward the object of their hatred. Nor were pogroms directed at Jews within the Russian Empire justified. All of these examples, however, have one thing in common: people gathered who felt isolated from the political process. Trump’s little Bier Hall Putsch Jan 6 mob felt the same way.
My point is that grievance is a natural feeling among the governed. Good government tries to provide understanding that heads off the mob. The French king was my example of one who did not head off the mob. The Russian example, as was a theme of Fiddler on the Roof, shows how strategic mob violence can be used by unscrupulous leaders. Wilmington and Tulsa fall into this category as well, I think.
I was reminded of Hobbes too. I prefer the views of Rousseau. Call me Anne Frank, but in spite of everything, I still believe people are really good at heart. They don’t need a powerful, constitutional, monarchical ruler to put down the mob. They just need a powerful, representative democracy to prevent them from feeling the need to be brutish mobsters.
I look at the protests on university campuses with a rising feeling of dread. In such a cauldron of divided politics, amid such repression by the GOP super-majorities with regard to self determination for women, suppression of voting rights, gun control, and civil rights, we are at a precarious moment.
Mike Johnson visited Columbia University yesterday and called for the resignation of its president and also demanded that Biden call out the National Guard to put down campus protests. Johnson was two years old when four students were killed at Kent State. He wouldn’t remember those days, but I do.
Of course out of control mobs are a frightening spectacle. But what do you call people who are appalled and outraged at the daily, day after day scenes coming from Gaza on the nightly news reports. Scenes of bombed out enclaves (reminiscent of WWII) and the bloodied bodies of children and other innocent civilians along with the Hamas perpetrators. Last night I saw more Palestinian mothers and fathers howling in grief at the loss of their loved ones. It’s not about mobs, it’s about the never ending slaughter and mayhem in Gaza which gets projected across the globe every single day. And I am opposed to violence of any kind, peaceful protest only, such as sit-ins or Martin Luther King type demonstrations. Was King and his followers part of a mob?
Well said. We could call ALEC a special interest mob of billionaires that tailor make our public policy work for them. Instead, we give them tax exempt status for their politicking.
What’s the difference between a mob, a demonstration, picketing …
If you disagree with the issue it’s a mob, if you agree a demonstration.
I loved being with thousands of like-minded demonstrators during the 2017 Woman’s March, the 1967 Poor People’s March, I’ve walked picket lines, were the college student demonstrations “mobs” or passionate demonstrators?
Thin lines …
If you’re standing before a peaceful demonstration, you have no reason to fear for your safety. I you’re standing before a mob, not so much.
Was the Women’s March after Trump’s election a mob? Were the antiwar and civil rights marches mobs? Criticizing the protestors is an old tactic to distract from the message. The college demonstrations are peaceful and relatively small. Why suggest they are “manifestations of mob spirit”? For some, people, racism plays a role – “too many” Arab and South Asian students, along with those pesky “self-hating Jews.” For others, it’s chiefly their message that’s the problem.
Side with the child over the gun every single time, no matter whose gun and no matter whose child
— Naomi Klein
What if a group took over the lawn at Columbia chanting slogans that you believed were blatantly racist? Should the university order them to disperse? If they refused, should the police arrest them?
Unvarnish, if you read my original post on this subject, I wrote about the importance of maintaining conversation, discussion, debate, and civility on campus because institutions of learning are supposed to be institutions of learning.
Why did the crowds not gather on October 8 to protest the barbarity and brutality of October 7? That question is important to address.
I don’t like to see students arrested for protesting. But if they are not peaceful, if they harass Jewish students, if they make learning impossible for others, they should find another place to demonstrate.
It’s amusing to see LGBT students in the demonstrations, because they would not be tolerated in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.
Diane, I think you’re misinformed about how the students are acting. One of my colleagues, excited that our students at CUNY are starting an encampment, and fearing NYPD violence, sent me this quotation:
“They’ll say we’re disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.” Howard Zinn 1971
Ruth
I saw no NYPD “violence” in the footage I saw of the arrests. I saw routine arrests of people who don’t want to be arrested.
“NYPD violence” is the language the anti-police crowd always uses. “NYPD violently arrests students.” As opposed to lovingly arresting them? If the school calls the police to remove students, that decision is on the school, not the police. And once the police are there, if students refuse to go willingly and they get arrested, that’s on the students. And if the students don’t go willingly at that point and the cops exert physical force to remove them, that’s on the students again.
I stand corrected re the police actions at Columbia. Wasn’t there. But police action against UT Austin students was violent.
The main issue, though, isn’t the police or the demonstrators but the killing going on in Gaza.
Rereading my post, I see that I had not written that the police were violent at Columbia. I said my colleague feared NYPD violence against our students who were starting an encampment at CCNY. I’m worried, too. This is after police broke up student encampments all over the country, violently in Texas.
I just want to say that I agree with you. It appears to me that the term “mob” is being used too loosely and rather unjustly and/or inappropriately. And it seems to me that one can be horrified by BOTH the atrocities of October 7th AND the atrocities currently being perpetrated against the Palestinians.
I’m very torn on this.
On the one hand, I am disturbed at what I see happening on college campuses, as well as what I’ve seen on the streets where I live and work. Most of these protesters are well-meaning, if maddeningly naive, I think. But there is a level of animosity and acrimony that is scary, and must be palpably so to many Jewish students. And there are also people who are not well-meaning. There are straight-up racists at some of these protests. There are literal Hamas sympathizers. There are the semi-professional anarchist types consumed by an ideology that loves disorder and dismantling and undermining our culture’s institutions. Aggressive anti-Zionism is part of the list of political projects they all align on (supported by all kinds of NGOs that get public money), including police abolitionism, prison abolitionism, anti-capitalism/Marxism. I truly loath these people.
But I am leery of the crackdowns and the degree to which they seem to be based on the idea that politically “unacceptable” and even hateful speech harms students. Governor Abbott sent out the tweet below, which strongly suggests (and surely will be used in litigation against the state) that students were dispersed and arrested because they were engaged in antisemitic speech. That sounds like classic viewpoint discrimination, illegal under the First Amendment.
https://x.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1783237229252346194?s=46&t=vV_4bJ7GuABaalzetJofQA
There’s a balance to seek and it’s not easy to do, because mobs are volatile and can get dangerous real soon. But it’s hard to feel good about any of this.
Authoritarians tend to tend to have distorted views on the freedom of speech. DeSantis announced that he is allowing untrained chaplains in schools. Critics complained there will be Satanists in schools, and the governor’s response is priceless. He intends to treat Christians differently from others and has no qualms about it.
“Some have said that if you do a school chaplain program, that somehow you’re going to have Satanists running around in all our schools,” he said at a press conference at a high school in Kissimmee…”We’re not playing those games in Florida,” DeSantis continued. “That is not a religion. That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this.”https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2024/04/fl-ron-desantis-vs-words-also-satan.html
One ought to be in college to learn how to think, how to argue your point of view when you encounter someone with an opposing point of view.
Learning to deal with uncomfortable feelings is part of life. When did we as a society decide that NO ONE must ever, ever, encounter people, ideas, organizations with whom we disagree?
Birdchum, yes.
I shudder to think what I’d do to a mob if confronted by one. Especially if I was at home with access to a firearm or in my car. Cars easily may be turned into 3,000 pound weapons.
There a lot of truth to the old saying that “Once a Marine, Always a Marine.”
The U.S. Marines does not train its recruits to run away or feel fear. Feel fear we might, after we’ve already done something without thinking.
Marine recruits are trained to react without thought when threatened.
This is what happens to most combat troops in combat. To react as trained in reaction to a threat of some kind through repetition followed by yelling “Kill!” as loud as possible.
“It IS a neurological coping mechanism. In fight or flight situations, your brain breaks everything down into the most basic of perceptions. This often results in percieving time more slowly, in an attempt to maximize reaction time to whatever danger is present.”
“This combination of reactions to stress is also known as the “fight-or-flight” response because it evolved as a survival mechanism, enabling people and other mammals to react quickly to life-threatening situations. The carefully orchestrated yet near-instantaneous sequence of hormonal changes and physiological responses helps someone to fight the threat off or flee to safety. Unfortunately, the body can also overreact to stressors that are not life-threatening, such as traffic jams, work pressure, and family difficulties.”
Sources: The Guardian, Harvard Health, edu, Psychology Today
A difficult topic indeed. My mind knee-jerk-rejects calling these student protestors “mobs.” But that’s because my entire experience of student protests was 1968-1970, and they did not have the tone I sense hovering in the wings of these protests. Even the one in DC with 250k mostly-young people– never felt volatility, sense of people being out of control.
The Gaza War protests seem a tinderbox by comparison. Any breakdown in understanding and civil discourse can lead directly to “then you’re against me/ my relatives/ my community/ our race/ our religion.” There is also the practice of pro-Palestinian protestors to envelop head and face in keffiyehs as a symbol of solidarity. Originally a practical garb for desert travelers, in a US protest setting it can look positively sinister to the rest of us. Too reminiscent of KKK, or balaclava-clad bank robbers.There were other things that made most of those ’68-’70 protests feel peaceful and unanimous, rather than a confrontation. A significant chunk of our male colleagues/ boyfriends/ fiances would be drafted into combat shortly after graduation, and some of us had already lost friends or relatives. And the “enemy” was clear-cut: our govt, which was running that war.
Just for flavor, here’s a video of Khymani James, one of the leaders at the Columbia demonstration. You can see him in various videos, including one where he organizes a human chain to physically force some people identified as “Zionists” out of the protest area. This is a video that James took of himself during a disciplinary hearing. His main point is that “Zionists” should die.
https://x.com/emilykschrader/status/1783862005679497236?s=46&t=vV_4bJ7GuABaalzetJofQA
If you watch the videos or listen to eye-witness accounts of the encampments in Columbia Univ and other colleges across the country, these protests are hardly “mobs” but peaceful anti-war demonstrations, taking time to hold community seder dinners and/or provide opportunities for private prayer. Check out this AP report out, for example: https://apnews.com/article/inside-columbia-protest-movement-0b35ff55f18d0bf4b2c8c0a27b1dbe04 Those who are portraying these peaceful protestors as “mobs” are echoing the sort of disinformation disseminated by the right-wing media outlets like Fox News.
Don’t gaslight, Leonie.
The conditions at each protest are different. The idea that the protest at Columbia is a raging, out of control mob isn’t consistent with the video and eyewitness accounts. But the idea that these are simply “peaceful demonstrations” with “private prayer” and lovely “community seder dinners” also underplays the degree to which many of these protesters have engaged in behavior that is severely disruptive and, to many students, intimidating.
This includes the leaders of the demonstrations. Khymani James, one of the leaders of the Columbia protest, can be seen on one video leading the crowd to form a human chain to physically force people identified as “Zionists” out of the demonstration area. Video surfaced today of James telling Columbia administrators (apparently during a disciplinary hearing) that Zionists should be killed. I believe he’s issued some kind of apology today, saying he “chose his words poorly” lol.
I’m not saying the protesters are all antisemitic. But this movement has an antisemitism problem and you’re trying to gloss over it.
Here’s an excerpt of the video I referenced.
https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1783703196428587490
Looks like my other comment got hung up in moderation. Maybe it will show up.
This is a video of an interview taped sometime in 2023 and irrelevant to whether the protestors at Columbia are peaceful – an interview used by the right-wing media to distract from the reality of what is happening right now. Moreover, the Israel govt. and their defenders apparently agree with the argument made by this individual — whoever he may be – that some killing is justified, as they’ve slaughtered over 30,000 Palestinians, the majority of them women and children.
This guy is one of the leaders of the Colombia protests. He’s in all kinds of videos circulating, including one where he directs a crowd to physically push people identified as “Zionists” out of the lawn area. He is not atypical of the more vocal people at these demonstrations from what I’ve seen on video and in person.
But it’s good that your instinct appears to be to recoil from what this guy has to say.
However, it seems to me that it’s becoming standard among young progressives horrified by the Gaza war to say that Zionism is fascism and must be opposed. Do you disagree? Are you an anti-Zionist?
Don’t show an irrelevant interview from 2023 from the right-wing media and try to pawn it off as relevant to this debate. It reveals more about your proclivities than the reality of what is happening on the ground at Columbia.
If what you claim is true, provide a video or two or any reliable reporting showing the behavior of this individual, or any of the other students involved in the encampments, if this evidence exists. There is plenty of evidence from reliable media sources indicating the opposite is true: the remarkable non-violence of students participating in this encampment.
It’s not irrelevant. It shows how this guy thinks.
And sure, here’s a video of him identifying “Zionists” who need to be pushed out of the encampment and organizing a group of people to physically push them out.
https://x.com/katiedaviscourt/status/1782276023108927757?s=46&t=vV_4bJ7GuABaalzetJofQA
Leonie, are you an anti-Zionist? Or is that question too hot to handle? The students at these demonstrations don’t seem to have any qualms about being aggressively anti-Zionist.
And for a second time, it’s not an “interview from right wing media.” It’s a video he took of himself and broadcast himself. Are you just intentionally lying?
FLERP: In briefly perusing this argument, I think there is a relativist rabbit hole down which (it seems to me) you might be descending.
Also, If there ever were a time when most of us need to depend on the long-time EARNED TRUST of professional journalists and vetted platforms, now is that time.
Even if in this case totally real and well-meaning, maybe once, but no more does “believe me” and my homemade video cut it. CBK
I don’t see what’s relativist about it. One of the leaders of the Columbia student demonstrations is a zealot who believes Zionists do not have a right to live. That’s not debatable and it’s not a gotcha. I think it’s a fair example of how a lot of these people think.
FLERP I was referring to your single-zoom video person. Some of your other comments and references sound reasonable to me.
The big “however” however, is how it gets sorted out as the historical lenses draw back to take in more of the context for all of us to understand better, and also for all of the students to think through. CBK
The video was recorded by this person and posted by him on instagram. It is not, as Leonie claimed, an interview from right wing media.
FLERP: You write: “The video was recorded by this person and posted by him on instagram. It is not, as Leonie claimed, an interview from right wing media.”
. . . and you write this, which is obviously beside the point, because . . . . ?
And if you don’t understand the point, do take some time to think about it. CBK
I confess I don’t understand what you’re saying, Catherine.
FLERP. If I am to take you seriously that you don’t understand the point, I thought (L’s) point was the same as mine . . . that the video could easily have been self-made propaganda; and in today’s world of misinformation coupled with online (remote persons) communications, it doesn’t make the cut of a serious/critical person’s warranted belief.
And by the way, in THAT world, eyes sometimes lie, especially when one’s thinker is out of whack. Take a break? CBK
Oh, and if you don’t trust your lying eyes and need a professional journalist from a vetted platform to say what I wrote, this just hit the presses:
I seldom if ever disagree with my good friend Leonie. But I disagree about the campus protests. The students are passionate but uninformed. Hamas flags are flying. Do students know that Hamas is a terrorist group? Have they read the Hamas charter? Do they know that the one goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel? I say this with total contempt for Netanyahu and his rightwing Trumpist government. There is plenty wrong on both sides. The ultimate end must be negotiations and a peace process, not more hatred and death.
A Hezbollah flag was at a student protest at Princeton yesterday.
Also it’s not from an interview. I don’t know where you heard that but it’s wrong and you shouldn’t repeat it. It’s a video he made of himself while on a zoom disciplinary hearing.
I’m pasting this NYTimes article below in full, because I think it helps illustrate the extremely intense acrimony that characterizes the most vocal people at these rallies, including the some of the people organizing chants and even acting as spokespeople for student protesters. People can try to downplay or gloss over it as much as they feel they need to, but the students who say they have felt intimidated by the Columbia protesters should not be dismissed out of hand.
Student Protest Leader at Columbia: ‘Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live’
By Katherine Rosman
Video of incendiary comments by one of the leaders of the student protest encampment at Columbia University surfaced online Thursday evening, forcing the school to again confront an issue at the core of the conflict rippling across campuses nationwide: the tension between pro-Palestinian activism and antisemitism.
The student, Khymani James, said in the January video that “Zionists don’t deserve to live” and “Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists.”
Mr. James made the comments during and after a disciplinary hearing with Columbia administrators that he recorded and then posted on Instagram.
The hearing, conducted by an associate director of the university’s Center for Student Success and Intervention, was focused on an earlier comment he shared on social media, in which he discussed fighting a Zionist. “I don’t fight to injure or for there to be a winner or a loser, I fight to kill,” he wrote.
A Columbia administrator asked, “Do you see why that is problematic in any way?”
Mr. James replied, “No.”
The remarks were widely shared on social media and go to the heart of a question that has been swirling around the protests: How much of the movement is driven by sincere concern for the suffering of Gazans, and how much is tainted by antisemitism?
College administrators have pledged to Congress that they will take swift action against hateful attacks on Jewish students and antisemitic threats. “I promise you, from the messages I’m hearing from students, they are getting the message that violations of our policies will have consequences,” Columbia’s president, Nemat Shafik, told congressional leaders last week.
On Friday, a school spokesman said, “Calls of violence and statements targeted at individuals based on their religious, ethnic or national identity are unacceptable and violate university policy.” He declined to say if Mr. James had been, or would be, disciplined for the remarks.
Early Friday morning, Mr. James posted a statement on social media addressing his comments. “What I said was wrong,” he wrote. “Every member of our community deserves to feel safe without qualification.” He noted that he made these comments in January before he become involved with the protest movement and added that the leaders of the student protests did not condone the comments. “I agree with their assessment,” he wrote.
Mr. James did not respond to a request for comment.
It is unclear how many students are directing the Columbia protest movement, but Mr. James, 20, emerged as a public face of the demonstrations earlier this week when he led a news conference to assert the demands the movement is making of the Columbia administration.
“This encampment — a peaceful, student-led demonstration — is part of the larger movement of Palestinian liberation,” Mr. James said at the conference.
In his biography on X, he calls himself an “anticapitalist” and “anti-imperialist.”
Mr. James was raised in Boston, and graduated from Boston Latin Academy, according to a 2021 interview with The Bay State Banner.
He told The Banner that at Columbia, he planned to study economics and political science. “The ultimate destination is Congress,” he said.
FLERP, you write: “Oh, and if you don’t trust your lying eyes and need a professional journalist from a vetted platform to say what I wrote, this just hit the presses: . . . “
Again, your single zoom video doesn’t cut it, ON PRINCIPLE, regardless.
Also, about your picture of that young person, I’m remembering how I thought when I was that age and how many times I’ve thought “stuff” through, added real nuance, self-corrected and changed my mind–rightly and wrongly, and more times than once.
In the interim, two other things: I can recognize a “high horse” when I see one–get off it with the attitude, please.
And secondly, Diane just wrote–I am with her on that, especially about the potential for too-quick judgments on the part of students.
And then there’s the “kill all Jews” doctrine that Hamas apparently has been teaching to their Gaza children since they were “elected.” I think many also forget the place of (deliberate or not) provocation (of extreme statements) in such battles, especially for young people.
And one can love Israel and think Netanyahu despicable, all in the same breath. CBK
Sorry about the high-horse tone, Catherine. I guess I don’t really understand what you mean when you say “your single zoom video doesn’t cut it.” But maybe it’s not worth sorting out.
As for whether I’m being too harsh on this guy, I don’t think so. This wasn’t a poor choice of words in a heated moment. He wrote something on Instagram that could be read to suggest he was willing to “kill . . . Zionists” if he were physically confronted by one. This prompted a disciplinary hearing (which frankly is a little Orwellian) with college officials, which was held over Zoom. The officials gave him multiple opportunities to walk that back. Rather than do that, he doubled down and made an argument that Zionists deserve to be murdered. The argument was fairly well thought out, and I’m sure it isn’t the first time he made it. He then was so proud of this that he posted a video of himself saying it on Instagram. So, yes, he may change his views as he gets older. But no, I don’t think I’m being harsh when I conclude that he is a zealot with an authoritarian streak and, dare I say, not a good person.
Diane: obviously you disagree with the student protesters and are free to criticize them for their flags or any other symbolic action they may take, but calling them a “mob” is inaccurate and only serves to justify bringing in police and encouraging a violent crackdown which is not merited in my view. Nor will it serve the goal of stopping the protest movement. In fact, it is more likely to cause the opposite, as history seems to indicate. The same language was used to stigmatize the student protesters against Vietnam in the 1960’s, and they were proven right, even as I believe these protesters will be shown to be right with time as well. I also wonder if you saw the videos of the many faculty members who support the protests being pounced on by the police and arrested, including the head of the philosophy department at Emory. Would you label them as part of a “mob” as well?
Two things can be true at once. A student demonstration that includes encampments and refusals to allow entry to “Zionists” can (1) not be a “mob” but (2) be intimidating to some students. Don’t ignore the second point.
Do you think it’s good policy for administrators to allow student groups to form encampments indefinitely in common areas? Can we at least agree that there might be a valid reason for administrators to try to stop that from happening?
Do you think it’s a good thing for leaders of student protests to refuse to allow other students to enter protest areas because those leaders believe they are “Zionists”? Or can we at least agree that’s not a good thing?
And do you consider yourself an anti-Zionist? Because a lot of these students consider themselves that.
These protesters are not right because their premises are wrong. Many, if not most of them, are echoing Hamas propaganda. Hamas doesn’t want peace. Read the Hamas charter. Hamas wants to eradicate Israel. Do you agree? I don’t.
If, as some protestors say, Israelis should “go back to where they came from,” then why not apply the same principle to the U.S.? Everyone should go back to where their ancestors came from and return the land between the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean to its original inhabitants.
That is not going to happen. It won’t happen in Israel either. Israel is not going away.
If the students want the war to end, they should demonstrate against both Israel and Hamas. They should demand the release of the hostages. They should defend Israel’s right to exist, while criticizing the decisions of Netanyahu and his rightwing cabinet. They should be calling for early elections so Netanyahu can be ousted and replaced.
They should not be denouncing Zionism, which is a recognition that the one small nation in the world that is majority Jewish has the right to exist.
So long as they continue to spout the propaganda of a terrorist group dedicated to eradicating the state of Israel, I cannot support the demonstrations or their uninformed views.
Anyone still think it’s not accurate to call the situation at Columbia a “mob”?
The question now is whether this is going to happen at the Democratic convention.
Flerp: I heard on Morning Joe this morning that there were “outside agitators” in the group/demonstration (I think they were talking about Columbia), which doesn’t surprise me with all of the shenanigans, goons and sycophants, and partisan donor money floating around; but what do you mean by “mob” and why is it important to hanker on about what to call it? That term doesn’t say anything about what’s going on there. CBK
https://x.com/ritchietorres/status/1785280876936302679?s=46&t=vV_4bJ7GuABaalzetJofQA
This is partly what I mean by mob.
Flerp: I guess I just don’t get your point. CBK
The point is this is a mob.
Flerp: . . . and? CBK
These comments are under a post titled “reject the mob.” There has been a debate in the comments about whether in fact the demonstrations at some of these schools are in fact a mob. I am saying the protests at Columbia have clearly become a mob. It’s not a complex chain of reasoning and I’m not sure why it seems to bother you that I’m calling the Columbia protesters a mob.
Flerp: Shrug . . . . CBK
?
Was my explanation not clear to you? Do you still not understand why someone would write that a demonstration is a mob amid a debate about whether demonstrations are mobs?
Flerp: I think the whole argument is a rabbit hole calling everyone to jump in and leave all nuance and context, especially historical context, behind. I said what I had to say in my earlier note about “outsiders” coming in and making trouble. But apparently you didn’t care to read it.
Write again about this to me, and you CAN have the last word, with my complements. CBK
Columbia already barred all outsiders from campus. That said, surely there are outside groups agitating among students. On the other hand, many of the students are part of those outside groups, and many student groups coordinate with the outside groups.
President Biden is supposed to speak at the Morehouse College commencement and get an honorary degree. Students and faculty want to cancel the speech and the degree. Biden will be humiliated whether he speaks or not. Who benefits?
The constellation of anarchist/decolonization/anti-capitalist/defund/decarceration/anti-Zionist (it’s increasingly a package deal—you have to accept the whole slate of issues or you’re outside the encampment) non-profit activists who promote and show up at these things. No one else.
Note that the “All Zionists deserve to be murdered” student who was barred from campus is now back, seen here working with other students to physically force other students (presumably non-believers) out of the protest area.
https://x.com/aghamilton29/status/1785292725115342947?s=46&t=vV_4bJ7GuABaalzetJofQA