The historian Heather Cox Richardson puts the situation in Ukraine into context. Please open the link to read her footnotes and consider subscribing to her excellent blog.
After a two-month stalemate, earlier this month Ukraine launched a game-changing counteroffensive against the Russians occupying their eastern territories of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia.
Over the summer, Ukrainian forces destroyed Russian arms, command centers, and supplies behind Russian lines with U.S.-supplied long-range High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS), then began to talk of a counteroffensive in the south, near Kherson. To guard against such a move, Russia moved many of its soldiers from the northeast to Kherson, leaving its northeastern troops stretched thin.
On September 6, Ukrainians moved, but not near Kherson in the south. Instead, they struck hard on the weakened northeastern lines, cutting quickly through the stretched and disheartened Russian occupiers and capturing more than 6000 square miles in less than a week. Russian troops abandoned their weapons and fled.
Russian president Vladimir Putin had launched the war on February 24 with the expectation that a lightning-quick attack would give him control of Ukraine before other nations could react, much as when he had invaded Crimea in 2014, or Georgia in 2008.
But he did not reckon with the careful rebuilding and training the Ukrainian military had undergone since 2014 as it worked to hold off Russia. He also misjudged the strength and commitment of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), which former president Trump had worked hard to dismantle. In office only a year at that point, President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken had made reconstructing the world’s democratic alliances a top priority.
Those alliances held against Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation as they had not before when Putin had bought appeasement with promises: “Don’t believe those who try to use Russia to scare you, who say that, after Crimea, other [Ukrainian] regions will follow,” he said in 2014. “We don’t want to carve up Ukraine. We don’t need this.” In 2022, international sanctions began to bite into and then to bring down the Russian economy, while shipments of weapons and economic support kept the Ukrainians supplied. Rather than a quick, successful strike, Putin found himself in a drawn-out and deeply unpopular conflict.
The Ukrainian counteroffensive tightened the screws further. Putin responded to it on September 21 by hinting that he might use nuclear weapons and calling for what initially was described as “partial” mobilization, a move he had tried to avoid because of its potential to turn the Russian people against him. Immediately, Russian men headed for the country’s borders, while civilians and draftees, provided with few supplies and no training, began to resist.
Putin also announced that the four occupied regions would hold referenda on joining Russia and would be part of Russia as soon as those referenda occurred, so any attacks on them would be considered attacks on Russian territory. With this upfront admission that the vote was predetermined, Putin’s move was clearly designed to enable him to keep the Ukrainian territory he seems about to lose. It also violated international law by attacking another nation’s sovereignty, and Biden and other democratic leaders condemned it in advance.
Then, on September 26, the Nord Stream pipelines on the floor of the Baltic Sea that send natural gas from Russia to Europe appear to have been sabotaged with TNT in what appears to have been a warning that Russia could attack the critical infrastructure of NATO countries. In this case, neither of the pipelines was in use, and blowing them up might simply have been a way to get rid of them in such a way to collect insurance on assets that are losing value as Europe turns to alternative energy.
But the explosions might also have been a warning that the seven major pipelines delivering Norwegian gas to Europe could be next. Former president Trump promptly “truthed”: “Do not make matters worse with the pipeline blowup. Be strategic, be smart (brilliant!), get a negotiated deal done NOW. Both sides need and want it. The entire World is at stake. I will head up group???”
Today, in a televised ceremony, Putin announced that the sham referenda had taken place and that “there are four new regions of Russia.” The four territories, which Russia does not fully control, cover about 18% of Ukraine. Putin’s speech seemed to indicate a concern that the countries under his sway are sliding away. He focused on the “West,” claiming that Russia itself is under attack from western democracies. “The West is looking for new opportunities to hit us and they always dreamt about breaking our state into smaller states who will be fighting against each other,” he said. “They cannot be happy with this idea that there is this large country with all [these] natural riches and people who will never live under a foreign oppression.”
He offered to negotiate for an end to the war, but said that the “four new regions of Russia aren’t up for negotiation.”
Journalist Anne Applebaum, who is a specialist on Central and Eastern Europe, identified Putin’s actions as a war not just on Ukraine, but on world order and the rule of law, a system embraced by the democratic world. It is, she writes in The Atlantic, “a statement of contempt for democracy itself.” That world order says that big countries cannot attack smaller countries and that mass slaughter is unacceptable. In contrast, in Putin’s world, she writes, “Only brutality matters.”
Secretary of State Blinken tweeted: “Today, we took swift and severe measures in response to President Putin’s attempt to annex regions of Ukraine—a clear violation of international law. We will continue to impose costs on anyone that provides political or economic support for this sham.”
In turn, Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelensky announced that Ukraine is applying for “accelerated ascension” into NATO. Ukraine’s membership in the organization would require other NATO countries to send troops to fight Russia. Admission to NATO requires the consent of all 30 members, and that consent is unlikely to materialize in the midst of a war, but Zelenky’s announcement overshadowed Putin’s.
Zelensky appealed to the ethnic minorities conscripted into Russian armies not to fight, telling them that more than 58,000 Russian soldiers had already died in Ukraine and warning them that they do not have to die for Putin. If they do come, he warned, those who are sent without dog tags should tattoo their names on their bodies so the Ukrainian authorities can inform their relatives when they are killed.
“The United States condemns Russia’s fraudulent attempt today to annex sovereign Ukrainian territory,” President Biden said. “Russia is violating international law, trampling on the United Nations Charter, and showing its contempt for peaceful nations everywhere. Make no mistake: these actions have no legitimacy.”
The U.S. announced new sanctions against Russians and Russian entities and will continue to provide aid to the Ukrainians. In what sounded like a reference to the damaged pipelines, Biden told reporters “America’s fully prepared with our NATO allies to defend every single inch of NATO territory, every single inch,” Mr. Biden said, adding: “Mr. Putin, don’t misunderstand what I’m saying.”
Meanwhile, Ukrainian troops have advanced around the city of Lyman and appear to be on the cusp of encircling the Russian troops there. Lyman is a key logistics and transportation hub, and the Institute for the Study of War, a think tank, says its loss “will likely be highly consequential to the Russian grouping.”
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I sincerely hope I am wrong, but I think that Putin the Horrible will use tactical nuclear weapons to level a few Ukrainian cities to end the war in a flash of radioactive waste. I don’t think we would start WWIII with Russia and Putin knows that. Sanctions are obviously not doing that much good in deterring Putin from his goals of destroying Ukraine as an independent country. Will Putin be satisfied with what he has gobbled up so far? I doubt it.
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Ukraine just took control of Lyman, a key rail hub in Donetsk, which Putin illegally annexed.
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If the world backs off and let’s Putin do what he wants because of his threats of starting nuclear war, then Putin will never stop pushing, expanding, starting small wars as he continues to swallow former Soviet occupied countries in Eastern Europe in his goal to rebuild Stalin’s dystopian Soviet Empire. And once Putin gets those countries, he’ll go for countries that already belong to the EU and/or NATO, one at a time, and expanding that empire may not stop with Putin’s death.
When it comes to Putin, the domino theory is real. Never give in to bullies. Never let them have their way, no matter what they threaten to do and even if they do it.
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If a frustrated Putin decides to blow up the Norwegian pipeline that is supplying Europe, it would escalate the war to a whole new level of potential conflict. Norway is a founding member of NATO, and the US is standing firm with its allies.
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nope, not jumping, nor crawling, drip by drip on the war wagon.
>
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Defending Ukraine from Russia’s aggression is not “jumping on the war wagon.” Putin invaded Ukraine. What Ukraine, with help, is doing is defense. Putin could end it all today by getting TF out.
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Peggy, like you, I oppose war. I wish Putin would withdraw his forces from Ukraine at once and end this brutal unnecessary war.
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Every once in a while a large nation is shown to be not the mighty all powerful force it would like us to believe.
It is noteworthy that despite investments and resources the Russian army is still showing levels of incompetence in terms of motivation, logistics, strategy and operational level organisations. And at the bottom of this is the continued failure to build flexibility into its systems. Something which the USSR Red army by 1943-44 had learnt the hard way but was masterful at. How lessons are lost.
Ukraine has a long way to go though. Russian leaders have deep reserves of intransigence and a willingness to throw away lives. We now stand at a cross roads. Will this grind on down to an ill-tempered ‘peace’ deal? Or will Putin feel the ghost of Czar Nicholas II looking over his shoulder and saying ‘I wouldn’t if I were you,’?
The biggest blunder Putin made was not to approach Ukraine with soft power along the lines of ‘Hey you guys. We both made mistakes and things got a little heated. Now let’s talk things over. After all, we’re all East of the Oder, and you can’t really trust those Westerners, they’d buy you up and sell you off in little parcels all for profit,’
And give a few more friendly nudges (and bags of cash) to some willing MAGA types and wait.
Now he has to gamble.
And if things weren’t bad enough….Trump heading something????
On this magnitude of delicacy and seriousness.
Gimme a break
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Yeah, in Russia, it’s kleptocracy all the way down. The failure of the Russian armed forces due to decades of this is karma for the kleptocrat in chief, Tsar Vladimir.
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Agreed.
And now he broods and lashes out in his Kremlin. He reads like one of the bad chapters in the Czars. One where suspicion and vanity go hand in hand with a neurotic fixation of threats.
I’ve always maintained it’s not Putin’s Russia, it’s Russia’s Putin.
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That Trump is offering to broker a deal is laughable. How can NATO, now resurgent in the face of Putin’s aggression, take him seriously?
Putin’s threats are real and dangerous to world peace. I believe tactical nukes being introduced into the war would bring tactical nuclear retaliation, perhaps aimed at Putin himself.
Ukraine, meanwhile, faces decades of reconstruction following this war, complete with some of the political corruption that always comes out of a war.
Thanks, Putin.
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OMG, you guys are so funny. Four regions just voted overwhelmingly to join Russia and Russia just accepted them. There is celebrating on both sides. Now when ukrainian forces shell those regions, they will be attacking Russia and Russia will respond appropriately.
A country that exists entirely on stolen land devoid of its original peoples by genocide, which annexed Hawai’i against its will, which has invaded, occupied and bombed dozens of other countries, certainly has no room to complain.
Nearly everything else in this piece is lies and U.S. propaganda that is so utterly divorced from reality it’s risible, most especially the idea that Putin himself destroyed Nordstream. I swear the entire country is suffering from long COVID – you can’t even tell how badly this narrative fails the smell test. Yes, it makes so much more sense that the country that poured billions into researching, developing and creating the pipeline, which stands to gain the most from its operation, which is now losing millions in natural gas, would blow it up rather than say, simply turn the spigot. But then, you people think that Putin was shelling a nuclear plant in territory that he held. And he does it all just because he is a raving madman. I dunno, seems like if he’s that much of a raving madman that he’s destroying his own assets, maybe the best course of action would be to … just let him do it? How long will it be before he destroys all of Russia just because he is such a deranged lunatic?
But of course you don’t really believe he’s the one doing it. You choose to believe it rather than believe that your own country is the “bad guy” in this comic book narrative. I cannot imagine what that cognitive dissonance must be like. The U.S. is the one who benefits from the destruction of the pipeline. The U.S. has a history of doing exactly these kinds of things. Biden and Nuland both said the pipeline would be destroyed if Russia invaded ukraine. U.S.forces were recently conducting “drills” in the area of the pipeline. U.S. helicopters were recently circling the area. But of course, it’s a cwazy conspiracy theory to say that U.S. had anything to do with it. (the links to all of the above are found here: https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/10/01/how-to-defeat-putin/)
Doesn’t it worry any of you that every single establishment media outlet is parroting exactly the same narrative? Manufactured consent is predicated on lively debate within a narrow range, but you people have completely missed that there is no longer any range! Any deviation from the empire narrative, no matter how small, is automatically “Russian propaganda”! Do you not see how far into totalitarianism you have sunk? I have been trying to warn you for six years now, but you continue to laugh. By the time you are no longer laughing, it will be too late to do anything about it. I hope you are willing to sacrifice everything you have – everything we all have – to “liberate” ukraine (into the hands of its far-right corrupt controller).
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How sad you must be to see Ukraine continue to liberate Ukrainian territory that Russia annexed. Dienne, who started this war? Did Ukraine invade Russia?
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PUTIN: Ukraine and Russia are one country. They have always been one country.
HISTORIANS: Uh, no.
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND INTERNATIONAL LAW: Uh, no.
UKRAINIANS: Hell, no.
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PUTIN (imprisons or kills all viable opposition leaders; holds gun to voter’s head): OK, now vote in free and fair election.
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I shed tears for loss of virtuous Russians being turned back from territories they have liberated. Not only that, as you can see from the pic in this story, they don’t even get thanked for plowing the Ukrainian fields with new fangled plows dropped from the air!
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/russia-withdraws-troops-lyman-ukraine_n_63239253e4b082746be83531
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They liberated Mariupol pretty effectively. It’s now been liberated of the living. Liberated of its children. Liberated of its grandmothers and grandfathers. Liberated of its cultural monuments. Liberated of all but smoke and ashes.
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LOL. Where was your concern for the people of Mariupol when Poroshenko was saying that the children of western ukraine would go to schools while the children of the Donbas lived in cellars? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk
The people of Mariupol were very happy to be liberated by the Russians. That’s why they voted 90+% to become part of the Russian Federation.
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Dienne, you believe that the sham referenda in occupied territories were valid? How is that a free election? Putin killed thousands of civilians in Mariupol, hiding in a theater. And they like Russian rule? Surely you jest.
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The posts here defending Putin’s reprehensible actions are truly frightening in their pure delusion.
A shorter version of this manufactured outrage would be:
“How dare you believe your lying eyes over my always truthful sources at Russia propaganda central!”
Suffice to say, when someone trusts Putin’s propaganda more than Bernie Sanders and AOC, then it is as pointless to speak with them as it is to discuss issues with a rabid Trump supporter.
They need to be marginalized because until they are, they spew fact-free “truths”.
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Overwhelming voted? You refuse to acknowledge the absolute corruption of the Putin regime and the war crimes committed. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad to s e you grasping at straws, Dienne.
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How many times do I have to say it? The referenda were overseen by international election observers. The only claims of “sham” are coming from the kiev regime.
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No, the UN chief said the elections were a sham. Where were the international observers? From North Korea?
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This is a beast who runs a dictatorial mafia state in which opposition spokespeople and leaders are murdered or jailed, where people go to prison for 15 years for holding up a blank piece of paper on the street. It’s breathtaking that anyone where is defending this bloody criminal. It’s not exactly a mystery why all those former Eastern bloc countries joined NATO. The only mystery is how anyone could be so deluded as to take the transparently absurd Putinist claims at all seriously.
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The propaganda that “the referenda were OVERSEEN (a blatant lie) by international election observers” is something we should all be preparing for because it is exactly what the right wing Republican neo-fascists will be saying when their Republican-controlled states run their “fair and balanced” future elections in which “voter fraud” means anyone who won’t vote for Republicans is not allowed to vote.
What is being spewed here about this vote is simply a test of the right wing propaganda that is designed to normalize the right wing idea of “free” elections in this country in the future.
There is NO WAY that anyone who is a real progressive would ever support that. Allowing people who spew this kind of propaganda the kind of credibility and legitimacy this blog allows them is no longer acceptable to me. It isn’t being called out, it is being “debated” as if there are two sides.
I get that people on here don’t see the danger. And I am tired of being castigated for being too harsh in calling it out. You all normalize this at the risk to our democracy without understanding how you are being complicit with legitimizing this. It’s exactly like complicit Germans saying that Hitler has many valid points to make about the way the economy should be run even though they absolutely have a difference of opinion with Hitler about the superiority of the Aryan race and the evil of the Jews and they would certainly “debate” Hitler about that. It is how fascism got normalized.
We are now allowing and normalizing disagreements on what reality actually is, which is exactly what the billionaires like Peter Thiel want. It is Orwellian, and we play right into their hands.
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Indeed, NYC PSP. Dictators often hold “free and fair” elections in which they receive all the votes. I just held an election in my kitchen to decide whether Avignon should become part of Boblandia. Guess what? It’s mine now. Dienne, if you have the time, could you write the French and let them know?
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It is already established that Putin is guilty of the Crime of Aggression, War Crimes, and Crimes against Humanity in Ukraine. He invaded a sovereign UN country. He has conducted mass forced deportations. He has used illegal thermobaric and cluster munitions. He has illegally targeted civilians, civilian infrastructure, and cultural monuments, including schools, passenger train stations, hospitals, and theatres. His soldiers have carried out widespread looting and murder and rape of civilians. And now he has illegally annexed (AGAIN) another UN member nation’s territory via a sham referendum.
But the worst may be yet to come. For some time now, he has been threatening to use nuclear weapons:
That’s the thinking of a madman. If it quacks like a duck, . . .
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If Putin is such a power hungry madman, why was he willing to agree to a peace deal with Elensky back in April? https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/ And if Elensky is the sane and noble one, why did he scuttle it after a visit from UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson?
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Dienne,
Who is the aggressor in this war?
You keep insisting that Outin is seeking peace. Why did he invade Ukraine? Why doesn’t he return Ukrainian territory to Ukraine? Why does he keep seizing more of Ukraine? Why did he try to seize Kyiv? I fail to understand why you continue to defend the aggressor.
If Putinnwants the war to end, he could bring his troops home. Why doesn’t he? What is his goal? According to the UN Charter, it’s a war crime for one sovereign nation to invade another.
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Putin has explained his goals numerous times. You insist on not believing him. I have explained the series of events that led to this point numerous times. You insist on not believing me. He doesn’t give back the territory he has taken because the people there don’t want to be given back because they are tired of being bombed and slaughtered by Kiev-regime fascist nationalists. You insist on not believing that either. I have provided so many sources so many times. I have led you to water, you refuse to drink.
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Why are the Ukrainians fighting so hard to expel the Russians? Why does Putin have El the right to seize territory that belongs to Ukraine? Who were the international observers who oversaw the rushed referendum? Do you really believe that more than 90% of the people in the Ukrainians regions voted to belong to a dictatorship?
Ukraine did not invade Russia.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
If Putin loves Ukraine so much, why does he bomb hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, humanitarian convoys, and non-military targets? Why does he bomb civilians trying to flee?
Why do you support an imperialist warmonger who tried to capture all of Ukraine by seizing Kyiv?
Doesn’t it make you sick when mothers and children are slaughtered by Russian bombs?
Why doesn’t Putin just go away?
Stop the war.
Stop the killing.
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Only some ukrainians are fighting to expel the Russians. Most of the people in the Donbas were fighting against those ukrainian forces. It makes me sick to see mothers and children slaughtered by any bombs, including ukranian bombs. History (if we live long enough to have a future history) will show that an awful lot of those atrocities you talk about were committed by ukranian forces. Many of the survivors from the Donbas have already said so. Of course, I know you’re not going to believe me and none of the sources I have already posted nor any I could post will ever convince you of that. You refuse to look at reporting from people actually in the Donbas like Eva Bartlett, but you insist on believing Heather Cox Richardson who has never been to ukraine at all. How can I convince you if you refuse all evidence? Trying to talk to people who have built an unfalsifiable world for themselves is like trying to talk someone out of a cult. I can only hope that something someday opens your eyes because once you see the western propaganda, you can’t unsee it. Russian propaganda is clumsy and harmless by comparison.
Speaking of western propaganda, have any of you gotten the chance to read that Michael Parenti book I recommended – Inventing Reality? He painstakingly documents hundreds of media lies from the 50s through the 90s – each and every one of them in favor of the U.S. empire. What makes you think the media have changed their ways?
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BURGLER: Who is that outside?
HOMEOWNER: I called the police.
BURGLER: You what? I should nuke this place. I tell you what. I will make a peace deal with you. I take just your jewels and your cash. I leave your electronics. And I slip out the back door.
HOMEOWNER: No deal. The cops are here. There are going to arrest you.
BUGLER: What’samattuhyou? You act like I’m some power-hungry madman. I’m trying to make a deal here.
HOMEOWNER: You are in my home.
BURGLER: So? Dienne, explain it to him.
LOL
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So, the little item you (and the folks at “Responsible” Statecraft) forgot to mention is that shortly after those discussion between Russia and Ukraine, the Ukrainians discovered the breathtaking war crimes that Russia had committed in village to the north of Kiev..
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Do we have to remind you that these territories (and Crimea) are part of the sovereign UN state of Ukraine and that only Ukraine can, under international law, hold elections there? I cannot travel to France tomorrow and announce an election to determine whether Avignon will become part of the state of Boblandia. LMAO. This ought to be obvious enough. And, ofc, there were no UN observers of these “elections.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/27/europe/russia-ukraine-referendum-intl
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Boblandia sounds like a grand country. Why don’t we gather a team and annex part of Canada or Mexico?
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Doubtless the people of Canada and Mexico long to be liberated and to claim their historical place as part of Greater Boblandia. Putin’s dog, Trump, can declassify documents with his mind. Maybe I can annex countries with mine. You know, as Tsar Vladimir does. OK. Putin also has access to armies of thuggish rapist and murderers. I grant that difference. But the legitimate annexation of Ukraine is something that exists only in the imaginations of those suffering from Degenerative Putinopathy.
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Please see my essay, Diane, “On the Historical Unity of Avignonnaises and Boblandians”
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From dienne77: “Four regions just voted overwhelmingly to join Russia and Russia just accepted them. There is celebrating on both sides.”
Well-informed people of goodwill can have opposing opinions about the wisest course of action regarding Russia’s military action in Ukraine. We all have the right to our own opinions, but we don’t have the epistemological right to our own facts that are at variance with blatantly obvious reality. The vote in the four regions of Ukraine was not in the least a voluntary expression of choice whether or not to be annexed by Russia. Russian troops coerced Ukranians into marking their ballots Putin’s way. Any belief otherwise is based on crackpot anti-American ideology, as has often been expressed on this blog regarding the Russian invasion.
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https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/09/30/putin-illegally-annexes-four-regions-in-ukraine-as-country-applies-for-nato-membership.html
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Just out of curiosity, have any of you actually listened to Putin speak?
I’ll tell you a little story, even though it doesn’t make me look very good. For years I refused to listen to, look at or even be in the same room with Karen Lewis on the TV or radio. The establishment media which I subscribed to in those days had done such a great job of portraying her as this raving, frothing, power-hungry mad Black woman and I just didn’t want any part of a b—- like that.
Until one day my husband literally made me sit down and listen to her for an extended speech. After I got over my kicking and screaming, I sat there with my jaw on the floor. The woman was calm, rational, articulate, knowlegeable – brilliant, in fact. I was so horrified that I had bought into the smearing of her that I made it a point to listen to her and read whatever she wrote as often as I could. I still at times disagreed on one point or another, but I realized how much my understanding of her had been shaped by the vicious portrayal of her by the media and it’s agenda against public schools.
Do any of you think that maybe, just maybe, you could be victims of such media portrayal of Putin? He’s a crazed, power-hungry, blood-thirsty tyrant out to rule the world! (Bwahahaha!) I can see how you want no part of a man like that. But if you actually watch and listen to him, you won’t see that in anything he does. He’s calm, he speaks slowly, deliberately, thoughtfully. He builds his arguments block by block based on history (albeit history from Russia’s perspective) and logic. He’s smart, well informed (again, from Russia’s perspective), knowledgeable, articulate. How do you square that with this media portrayal of a frothing evil madman?
Now, I’m not saying that you have to agree with him. Most U.S. presidents (the current one and the immediate past one notwithstanding) have likewise been calm, articulate, rational, compelling public speakers and I certainly don’t agree with much any of them had to say. But do you think maybe the media has an agenda in portraying Putin as such a raving, frothing, unreasonable madman? If he is only a raving madman, then returning violence for violence and crushing him completely is, naturally the only sane response. But what if he is a reasonable, rational man who could be negotiated with? What then would be the wisest course forward? Who stands to gain from which path? Cui bono?
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Dienne, you have gone too far. Karen Lewis was a very dear friend of mine. She was a brilliant, charismatic, brave and beautiful person. She worked to make people’s lives better, not to force them to obey her. She believed deeply in democracy.
To compare her to a mass murderer is beneath contempt. Putin is a power-hungry megalomaniac. He is a tyrant. Please do not insult Karen Lewis’s memory. And please do not post here anymore. You have crossed the line with this insane rant.
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Thank you for this reply. I posted a comment above before I read this latest outrageous rant.
It is absolutely true that Putin sometimes says something that is true. So did Hitler. So did David Duke. So does the person who posted this outrageous rant.
But I am old enough to remember when the media actually focused on the lies and abhorrent things that David Duke said which made him lose credibility. These days, the “fair and balanced” media would make a passing reference to his lies and abhorrent statements while writing lots of stories about the other things he says, is if it is no longer important that a politician might base his campaign on convincing the public of a reality that doesn’t exist, because sometimes that politician tells the truth.
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File this one under bizarre. What’s more bizarre than bizarre?
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My fear is that the worse it goes for Putin the more likely he is to use nuclear weapons.
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That is a valid fear, but it is even more of a reason that democracies need to stand up to Putin.
My fear is that some short-sighted politician believes that Neville Chamberlain was right and if England had just let Hitler invade a lot more countries and simply annihilate all the Jews and non-Aryans like he wanted, they could have avoided war and the terrible toll it took.
Unfortunately, every time a raging madman who believes only in their own power and is willing to sacrifice all is empowered, there are NO GOOD OUTCOMES.
There are no good outcomes, so rather than to act because you think the outcome will be slightly less horrific than another horrific outcome, one should act in the way that is morally better. Sometimes that is difficult to figure out, but it certainly was not when it came to Hitler and it certainly is not when it comes to Putin.
There are no good outcomes here. The best we can hope for is that some folks with power in Russia figure out their own self-interest is no longer being served by Putin.
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And to think, in the late 80s/early 90s, serious people were toying with the idea of dramatically decreasing nuclear threats. We’re living through a Twilight Zone episode now.
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Bob Shepherd
“It’s breathtaking that anyone where is defending this bloody criminal”
Now forget the typo God knows my house is made of glass.
But there could be a serious mistake in that statement. Now ‘here’ could mean on Diane’s blog, in which case you would be okay . However after 6-7 years of 77’s absurdity and clearly RIGHT WING and Authoritarian enabling attacks. It is clear to me that ‘here’ if it refers to a physical location may be thoroughly absurd . She could be a fat kid sitting on his bed in Jersey or perhaps Moscow.
If it seems like I am being demeaning to 77 I am !
Having anything like an intelligent conversation with a troll is a waste of effort . But keep up the good work.
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Dienne has attended at least one NPE conference, and several here have met her. So, no. She is a real person, a real person who claimed that Trump is not a racist, that Putin would never invade Ukraine, that NATO is a threat to Russia, that Ukraine bombs theatres full of Ukrainians, that reporters from around the world and aerial surveillance photography and the UN and all the NATO countries and independent organizations like The Red Cross and Doctors without Borders and everyone else around the world (just about) are dupes or bad actors, and that Vladimir Putin and some crackpots at Consortium “News” are the voices of reason and truth and justice in the world.
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Bob,
Thanks for the summation. I feel badly about Dienne. She is a real person. I have met her at an NPE conference in Chicago. She cares about kids and schools. We part ways bigly on her views about Putin. I wish she could let it go.
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I think, Diane, that this kind of back and forth clarifies. Should one engage with stuff this absurd? Well, I think one should. Why? Because dangerous falsehoods metastasize. Democracy is doing so messy. Does it waste time? Yes. Dienne posts regurgitated Russian propaganda. You or I or someone else definitively refutes it. Dienne repeats it and wonders aloud at our denseness. LOL. That’s democracy in action.
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The most important lesson I tried to teach in my short career: Democracy is messy and it’s supposed to be that way.
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Bob Shepherd
Well you cleared that up and summed that up pretty well . Of course I live in a glass house on confronting trolls as well. Spending too much time on Facebook pages affiliated with Building Trades Unions confronting Right Wing Trolls who have the audacity to pretend they support unions.
Most of the bloggers on Diane’s page leave me with little to confront 77 about . Why with up to 98 % of Ukrainian voters in the four regions voting to join Russia what could possibly be wrong with that election.
It has been seven years of nonsense from 77 and in the beginning we held similar views about the failure of Democrats and Neo Liberal policies.We probably still do . However as the election of a fascist Trump in 16 became an evident possibility to many including Chomsky that changed. As some of my Labor friends who like to call themselves Communists (I do not) say . ” The Revolution can wait fascism is too dangerous ”
Putin is not a Communist nor a Socialist he is a Fascist Kleptocrat as we have both said. He is no different than a Mafia Don . With the rest of the Russian hierarchy of oligarchs no more than Capos .. He is also the nexus of a right wing authoritarian movement whose roots have sprung up from Brazil ,to the US ,to Western Europe and the East…
Movements relying of Xenophobia , Homophobia and religious intolerance to pursue totalitarian goals.
Crushing him as important as crushing Mussolini Crimes he has committed in Ukraine and Syria combined with threats to use Nuclear and Chemical Weapons put him in a league with Hitler’
At least on FB I get to lob 4 letter insults at the trolls.
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dianeravitch
You also parted ways with her on her Bothsidesism equating the threat from Democrats with Trump. Dating back as far as Hillary . I a left wing populist (ie Sanders ) loathed the Clinton’s and Obama but Republicans and Fascists are a whole other species.
That after 6 years, a seditious conspiracy, an alliance with Christian and White Nationalists she is still at it , is as unacceptable as those in Greg’s post who empowered Hitler .
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Should one engage with stuff this absurd? Well, I think one should. Why? Because dangerous falsehoods metastasize. That’s that propagandists like Putin and Peskov and Lavrov (and Joseph Goebbels and Lee Atwater and Newt Gingrich and Stephen Miller and Christopher Rufo) depend upon. Is doing so messy. Does it waste time? Yes. That’s democracy for you.
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cx: That’s what
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I am offended that Ukrainians are not mentioned as one of reason that the “special operation” didn’t succeeded, but only the Ukrainian military and NATO. What NATO did in the first days of the “operation”? Did they take arms? Did they dig trenches around and in Kyiv? Did they bring food and blankets to those people? Did they feed Russians soldiers soup after which they were sick like old lady did? I grew up in Kyiv and 90% of my friends there (all russian-speaking by the way) are against Russian invasion. I would not even start about Dienne. She is completely repeating Putin’s propaganda.
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