Carol Burris, executive director of the Network for Public Education and a retired high school principal and a grandmother, argues in this article that public schools in New York City should reopen. She speaks for herself, not for the Network for Public Education. NPE issued a statement calling for additional federal funds to enable the safe reopening of schools. NPE put the emphasis on the necessity to protect the health and safety of students and staff before reopening. Just for the record, I personally am super-cautious about when it is safe to reopen (I don’t know), but my son who has a second grade child in public school is eager for schools to reopen. These are important discussions. There is no clear answer because none of us knows what might happen in a few weeks or months. Take it as a given that we share the same goals: the safe reopening of schools and a return to in-person learning. The only points of difference–and they are important– is when to reopen and how to determine whether the schools are safe for students and adults alike.
Carol argues that it is time for schools in New York City, which has a very low positivity rate, to reopen.
She writes:
No one knows with certainty whether New York City public schools can successfully remain open this fall. Some believe a second wave of the virus will overwhelm us, and others believe, for the five boroughs at least, the worst is past.
What is not an unsettled question, however, is the harm to New York’s children if they continue to learn exclusively online. The evidence of remote learning’s ineffectiveness is well established. For years, researchers have studied remote education via online charter schools, and from that research, we know what to expect.
The most comprehensive study of K-12 online schools was the 2015 study by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University (CREDO). That study concluded that students at full-time online charter schools fell far behind similar students in district public schools or traditional charter schools, equivalent to receiving 180 fewer days of learning in math and 72 fewer days in reading.
Macke Raymond, CREDO director, said that the gains in math were so small, it was “literally as though the student did not go to school for the entire year.”
A 2019 study of Pennsylvania online schools confirmed those results. It found that when compared with public school peers who were learning in person, online students lost “the annual equivalent of 106 days of learning in reading and 118 days in math.”
When it comes to graduating high school students in four years, online learning has terrible results. Half of all online high schools’ graduation rates are below 50%. These failing schools enrolled three in four online students.
Keep in mind, the above results are from a sector with considerable experience in remote learning and a student body whose families actively sought it.
For our youngest students, online learning is especially problematic. It goes against all of the research regarding how young children learn. Experts also warn us of the dangers of electronic screen time to the development of memory, language and thinking skills, in addition to its association with vision disorders and obesity.
Finally, we must consider our experience with remote learning since COVID to date. When I was a teacher, we had an expression, “You can’t teach an empty seat.” That holds true even when the seat is on the other side of a screen. As of May 27, The Boston Globe reported that 20% of all Boston students were “virtual dropouts,” not logging in since the beginning of that month. More than one month into the pandemic, thousands of California students could not be accounted for, and this summer, in New York City, 23% of students never logged on to summer school at all.
Since we closed our school doors, children have not slipped through cracks, they have fallen into canyons.
This is not to argue that we must open schools now across the United States as if the pandemic does not exist. Rather, it is to make the case that in those few states and cities like New York, where the virus is remarkably low, we have a moral obligation to children and our nation to try.
Will it take courage, faith and discipline? It will. Will students who refuse to follow safety rules need to learn from home? Sadly, yes. Should teachers and children with underlying conditions have a remote option? Of course. Openings will not be perfect, and schools may have to close from time to time. But if we throw up objection after complaint as we “get ready to get ready to get ready,” we undermine the trust of parents and fuel the fears of parents and teachers alike.
Even as we did during COVID’s darkest days, New York City can provide the leadership to other major cities, giving evidence of what to do when re-opening their schools as their rates of virus decline.
What we cannot do is try to wait COVID out. Childhood is short, and every year is precious. No politician, pundit or leader can put it on pause.
Thanks for this, Ms. Burris. A much needed voice on this issue in NYC.
The success of the reopening will depend on the efficacy of the reopening plan. From what I read,students will rotate between in class and online learning, aka, hybrid instruction. It is a complex plan for a for vast, complex school district, but it is designed to keep the number of students down at any given time. How they will handle transitions is a factor in the success. Transitions are the time when virus transmission will be the most risky.The success depends on the vigilance of all the moving parts of the plan. This is an outline of the proposed NYC plan. I do not know if there have been any changes since this article was posted.https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-public-schools-reopening-plan-heres-what-we-know-so-far
“ Should teachers and children with underlying conditions have a remote option? Of course.”
This statement goes against the entire argument put forth. When we are ok
with qualifying a condition for some, the entire crux of why we should open according to Burris goes out the window. If it’s not safe, it’s not safe. If online learning is damaging for all, it is damaging for some. I think she needs to scrutinize the situation a bit more deeply. Context is very important here. To what extent will school look different? The devil is in the details.
In my district, we have 70% of students in an alternating hybrid model and 30% all virtual (by choice). All core subjects and most related arts will be taught synchronously by way of mini-lessons lasting 5-10 minutes each. Then students will engage with independent work or guided learning in very small groups with paras and teachers alike offering assistance whether online or in person. Students won’t be “online all day,” they will be on for very short snippets of time but will have personal materials with which to work. Our self-contained students will be receiving in-person instruction for the entire week unlike our alternating hybrid groups. The district is working to accommodate students based on needs that we know about now. Will some students fall through the cracks? It is very possible, but this happens under normal conditions, too, until we learn how students’ needs change.
It is unfair to compare what many public schools are planning for the fall with what the predatory online charter academies have done in the past. Let’s give districts a chance to try while keeping everyone as safe as they can be.
“When we are ok with qualifying a condition for some, the entire crux of why we should open according to Burris goes out the window. If it’s not safe, it’s not safe…. “I disagree. Some even with conditions and older teachers and principals will come in. I know some who are planning that. But it is wise to give the option since nearly all of the deaths from COVID in NY have been in those with underlying conditions. I really do hope that online instruction for those who opt for it is better. But don’t discount what we know. The numbers in the online schools are going way up–not because districts don’t have online options, but because parents believe the established online schools (right or wrong) are doing online better. Look at all of the children virtually dropping out…. Let me share something that happened that “clinched it” for me.
I heard a check out lady at my local grocery store, someone who has been there throughout the virus, complain to a co-worker how she” came in and worked every day, and now these white teachers don’t want to be near my kids.”
The black and brown teachers in my grandson’s pre-school/childcare come in every day. They get paid crap (although they are certified teachers). They have been there throughout because his school is a designated center for essential workers.
There are no easy answers. But given the low levels of virus in NY, I believe we should try… especially for elementary kids.
At my elementary school, which is small, kids will be in school every day for 7 hours a day. Including teachers and staff, that adds up to hundreds of people in the building every day. So, this will be an interesting experiment.
If the NYC plan remains the one cited in the post above, the plan allows for remote and virtual options for students, older teachers and those with preexisting conditions.
Mainstream ed reform goes all in on universal vouchers:
Click to access Fund-Everything-2020.pdf
I knew they’d end up here. None of the rest of it makes any sense without the voucher funding mechanism. A little shady to push the agenda under the guise of addressing the pandemic though.
I think it is important to give context about where we are in NYC in terms of the disease. This is the latest positivity rate for each of the counties that comprise NYC–often referred to as the 5 boroughs…
The Bronx- 0.79%
New York (Manhattan)–0.38%
Kings (Brooklyn)–0.73%
Queens 0.68%
Richmond (Staten Island) 0.55%
That means that of all the people tested in those counties–those who believe they have COVID-19, as well as though whose might require a test for a job or medical procedure, those are the numbers that came back postive–in all cases, less than 1%. Certainly those with COVID would be over-represented in these tests.
0.38, 0.76, 1.52, 3.04, 6.08, 12.16. . . .
Take a look at the New York graph Bob. We have been very low and very flat since the beginning of June. During that time, we have opened restaurants (indoors except for NYC), hospitals to visitors, gyms (except for NYC), malls (except for NYC), all retail stores. Manhattan streets are bustling again. Traffic is again terrible. I live there. No spike. Numbers going down, not up. In NY, we have been three straight weeks in a row with a positivity rate below 1% We are well well below CDC guidance numbers and well below the Governor’s 5%, also informed by health care professionals. I find it odd that we complain about Trump not following science, yet we abandon it when it does not fit our opinion. If we believe that opening up our society little but little when the virus is low will lead to your projections, then we should all just hunker down and never leave our homes unitl there is a vaccine that is perfect and everyone is mandated to have it.
I understand, Carol, and I hope that this is the right decision.
Our situation here in Florida is much worse. We haven’t seen rates like those you cite, and our leaders latch onto a few days of leveling off as proof that it’s OK to reopen. I’m terrified that we’ll see the same results that we saw from leaving our beaches and bars open back in April.
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/28/16264
You are right to be terrified for school re-openings in Florida, Bob. I 100% agree with you. Your state’s virus is not under control yet, and with your Governor it may never be for a very long time.
Florida’s numbers are going down as well. At one point the state was over 20% positivity, and it is now at 12.48%. The problem with Florida is the libertarian mentality of the leadership. DeSantis refuses to issue a mask order, and some school districts are following his lead. Others are making local mask orders that are not always enforced.
Because of the recent downward trend in new cases, positivity rates, and deaths in Florida, our leadership is talking about reopening beaches for Labor Day and, ofc, pushing reopening, in person, of schools. So, the rates will inevitably increase. I live in the Tampa area. I see a lot of people out and about without masks. I think we’re in big trouble.
Context is indeed important.
A critical aspect of that context is test accuracy
From Robert Schmerling, MD (Harvard Health Publishing)
“If you want to know if you are currently infected with the COVID-19 virus, there are two types of tests: molecular tests and antigen testing.
Molecular tests (also called PCR tests, viral RNA tests, nucleic acid tests)
What about accuracy? False negatives — that is, a test that says you don’t have the virus when you actually do have the virus — may occur. The reported rate of false negatives is as low as 2% and as high as 37%. The reported rate of false positives — that is, a test that says you have the virus when you actually do not — is 5% or lower.
Antigen tests
What about accuracy? The reported rate of false negative results is as high as 50%, which is why antigen tests are not favored by the FDA as a single test for active infection. However, because antigen testing is quicker, less expensive, and requires less complex technology to perform than molecular testing, some experts recommend repeated antigen testing as a reasonable strategy. According to one test manufacturer, the false positive rate of antigen testing is near zero”
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/which-test-is-best-for-covid-19-2020081020734
End of quotes
So, one must interpret the “less than 1% positive” (>99% negative) results for NY in the context of the accuracy of the testing being done.
One can not simply take the reported positivity rate at face value.
As with all scientific measurements, it is critical to take uncertainty into account.
Maybe all the testing done by NY has only a 2% false negative rate in which case the less than 1% positivity” might be a fairly accurate indication of actual infections.
But it is also possible that a substantive fraction of the testing has a significantly higher false negative rate, in which case the reported ” less than 1% positivity” would be of doubtful reliability.
I don’t know what the actual situation is with NY testing, but I do know that the devil is really in the details.
I also know that one MUST consider — and REPORT — the associated uncertainty of the tests when making important decisions like reopening schools.
By the way, I don’t mean to single out Carol here, but not taking uncertainty into account is a very common mistake people make with regard to the SARScov2 virus in particular and to scientific subjects in general.
“bare” numbers reported without estimated uncertainty are essentially meaningless when it comes to scientifically related issues.
Having been trained as a scientist, this is a pet peeve of mine.😀
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/28/16264
Good morning Diane and everyone,
In New York State, the following vaccinations are required for children to attend schools and day cares:
Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (DTaP/DTP/Tdap/Td)2
Tetanus and Diphtheria toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine adolescent booster (Tdap)3
Polio vaccine (IPV/OPV)4
Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR)5
Hepatitis B vaccine6
Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine7
Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (MenACWY)8
Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (Hib)9
Pneumococcal Conjugate vaccine (PCV)10
Is the risk of contracting any one of these diseases more than the risk of contracting Covid? I don’t know. We have reliable vaccines and treatments for all these diseases. Yet we have NO reliable vaccine for Covid. I suspect the treatments for Covid are getting better as time goes by. We don’t know the long-term effects of Covid although some of the effects seem to be pretty serious. I don’t know if I want to take the risk of contracting this disease only to be left with serious heart conditions or other issues for the rest of my life. I just don’t understand the logic of forcing shopping malls to have updated filtering and air flow systems to help with Covid, yet there’s NO mandate for schools to do the same. It boggles the mind. When I go to the hairdresser, I have to sit in my car and text her so that she has time to sanitize everything. Yet, I’m told I have to go into a school building where there will be hundreds of people in the building at once. We’re all going to use the same faculty rooms, bathrooms and other common areas. Sure, yeah…don’t worry, it will all be cleaned “regularly” – whatever that means. Movie theaters and casinos in New York can’t even open yet and weddings can’t have more than 50 people, yet teachers are expected to go into buildings with hundreds of people who may or may not be required to wear masks at all times. In schools I know, students will be allowed to remove masks during lunch in the cafeteria. Desks will be brought in the cafeteria and will FACE each other 6 ft away. Yet, students will be shouting at each other with NO masks on. HOW and WHEN will the air be cleaned? There’s NO ANSWER to that question yet teachers are just supposed to live with it. It also violates the New York State Education Department reopening guidance where on page 29 it says that all desks should face in the same direction!! Yet, again, we’re told to just live with it. I see NO logic to these varying situations. Teachers are not martyrs. Teachers and students deserve to have a safe environment in which to teach and learn. I am doubtful it’s going to happen in many places. The only thing we can do is protect ourselves to the best of our ability and refuse to be put in situations we deem dangerous to our health. If you don’t have your mental and physical health, you’re not going to be able to live a good life. So, that’s what I’m going to be working on this fall – how to keep my physical health and mental sanity in the midst of this craziness. Teaching a subject will be second.
Carol appears to be weighing academic losses versus human losses and comes down on the side of CREDO alghoryms. Sadly, I am disappointed by Carol’s triage approach, willing to sacrifice the health and possibly lives of teachers and students for increasing reading:scores.
While my son has to return to his school, he is wary and has little confidence in the ability of politicians to run schools. He opted for all remote learning for his children.
This is what I am most worried about, Peter. https://www.dailydot.com/debug/taco-bell-wifi/?fbclid=IwAR1yG5rZBWmD2yMvDxwsb31ddrn-1baSg3nd8qETq99MEre3e9Fn_6rxsGQ
My concern from the beginning has been that spending our time speculating and making plans about how to “safely” reopen schools has distracted us from addressing issues like this–lack of connectivity and equipment, families where the parents or guardians have to work, safety checks on kids, providing meals, planning for the best possible online learning (recognizing that the best will be a eunuch’s shadow of in-person learning).
well said
I understand your terror for you child who is a teacher. I was always worried for my daughter who is a dermatologist when she went to the office during the pandemic and terrified during the height of the pandemic in NYC when she was assigned to the emergency room of a hospital in the Bronx. I was worried for her and her then unborn daughter. She could have taken a leave, but she declined. And I was proud of her for that choice (though very scared.) I was equally scared for my daughter in California who works with homeless vets for the VA. None of this is easy on any of us. But I look at the two little girls in the picture… no adult supervision sitting next to a Taco Bell alone. Likely the parent is working… Are they wearing masks? We can’t tell. So I ask, where are they safer from COVID as well as from other danger? There is a big ethical question we all grapple with–no one knows. We all do the best we can to decide. If you think all I care about is reading scores, you don’t know me at all.
You have very good reason to worry about this, Carol. The digital gap is horrific.
The issue really is that opening schools during this pandemic, like it or not, is an experiment. I am also super cautious. Regardless of any study regarding education benefit regarding in school education versus virtual, of which I have no doubt, do we want to experiment with our children, our teachers and the rest of the adult staff? Do we want to find out weeks, months or years from now that in school was a mistake? I am retired. I can only imagine the difficulty of teaching children virtually for real teachers, the classroom is where we shine. But, this is short term and teachers will rise to the challenge, as best they can. While we know some of the short term effects of the virus, we don’t know the long term damage it can inflict. This pandemic has laid bare the problems we need to fix in our “democracy.” No need to rehash them here. In the meantime, taking a chance to develop data about in school classes is not an answer. Do you want to find out how many will get sick and/or die, your children, family members, friends? NO STATE SHOULD EVEN CONTEMPLATE OPENING.
Then I suggest following that argument that nothing should open. Not colleges, retail stores, restaurants, public transportation etc. Not hospitals to anything but emergency treatments.
Hello Carol,
When I’m in the grocery store or a retail store (which isn’t often), I can move around and avoid people. I go in and leave quickly. In school, I am with kids and adults in close quarters for hours at a time. In effect, I feel “safer” in stores compared to a school. Schools are petri dishes in the best of times. We all know this.
Mamie is correct. Schools are a real experiment. It escapes me as to why you are pushing this over health/medical issues that are profoundly life threatening.
Under that logic, why even allow hospitals to open for non-covid emergency treatments? It increases the risk that covid will spread.
I’m all for reopening if we take the same safety precautions that hospitals take. My daughter just had pretty major surgery in a Boston hospital. She had to have a Covid test 3 days prior and self isolate. She could only be dropped off by one person. Mask required. When my husband pulled up, a very lovely guard walked my daughter in and told my husband he had to leave immediately. She could have no one with her before surgery or in the recovery room. She was in a hospital with gold standard ventilation. Order lies cleaned constantly. Not nurses. Those trained in how to clean around infectious diseases (and understand this was in a non Covid ward) cleaned. Nurses were constantly sanitizing and changing gloves. My daughter wore her mask up until he time a breathing tube was used. Shall we still compare schools to hospitals?
I would not compare schools to hospitals. Hospitals are essential.
Keeping schools closed is also an experiment. 30 million unemployment claims is an experiment. The idea that there is any “cautious” approach to this seems flawed to me.
Some experiments are unethical.
30 million unemployed is one. Reopening schools is another.
Fascism as governance, 200,000 dead would be a third.
I usually respect Ms. Burris’ opinions, but this piece really stuck in my craw. One caveat – I’m a middle/high school teacher in the Bronx so, ipso facto, maybe my voice is not as important as the “experts”. .We lost colleagues and parents in the spring because of poor leadership. We were screaming from the rooftops to close schools. Now we are speaking from experience. You should listen.
Ms. Burris’ writes, “no one knows with certainty whether New York City public schools can successfully remain open in the fall.” Let that sink in. Who will be the guinea pigs? While nothing in life is certain, we do things to make things safer if we can. We buckle up, we vaccinate our children, we wear helmets. I and my colleagues are screaming from the rooftops- going back to school in NYC right now is akin to riding in a car without a seat belt. It is not safe. It might have been. But we are again being led by a bumbling mayor and commissioner.
Ms. Burris argues infection rates are low in NYC. The reason why the rates are low is because we locked down mid-March. The mayor has already acknowledged there will be clusters of infection when we open schools.
While it’s true the rates are low city-wide, there are pockets of the city that are over 5% – the Governor Cuomo’s cut-off for school closing. We have students riding buses and subways from different parts of the city attending middle and high schools. The mayor is purposely using city-wide rates as criteria. We will have students traveling by subway from areas with a 7% infection rate to a 1%. It is inevitable rates will rise. On top of this, many of our students summer with family in countries with high infection rates. They are coming back.
No one is saying schools should remain closed forever. I don’t like remote teaching. I would much rather be in a classroom. What we are saying is it is not safe. Our leaders have failed us. We have HVAC inspections occurring using a piece of toilet paper on a stick. If one vent out of five is blowing some air, it is getting the green light. Our own principal has expressed concern about our ventilation system. They are not getting answers. Just so parents know, THERE IS NO VENTILATION IN OUR STUDENT BATHROOMS. Perhaps the mayor is, but my colleagues and I are not willing to play roulette with a child’s life. I’ve been to enough funerals thank you.
Ms. Burris cites studies showing the inferiority of online learning. No one is arguing online learning is superior. However, what Ms. Burris fails to recognize is online learning is not remote instruction. When I taught remotely in March, April, May, and June, it was not online learning. It was my classroom albeit in a remote environment. It wasn’t perfect. But it was far from a canned curriculum. My remote class laughed together, sang happy birthday to one another, and engaged in project based learning. Several of my students preferred remote learning. One explained she needed to become more independent in her learning. She said she “learned a lot…and I do mean a lot.” By the way, she is an English Language Learner.
Ms. Burris uses NYC summer school statistics to support her argument. She writes, “23% of students never logged onto summer school at all.” I would argue that 99% of these students were in summer school because they didn’t log in during regular school hours in the first place, so 77% attending sounds good to me. What are the pre-pandemic numbers of students attending summer school? Did Ms. Burris research these for comparison?
Finally, Ms. Burris writes, ” Will students who refuse to follow safety rules need to learn from home? Sadly, yes.” Here’s the thing – the mayor and chancellor have not given any directives on what to do with students who refuse to follow safety rules. The mayor and chancellor have given no directives on what to do with students who show up on the wrong day. The mayor and chancellor have not adequately inspected and repaired HVAC systems. The mayor and chancellor have not hired more custodians to clean using the new requirements. The mayor and chancellor are proposing a hybrid model which requires more teachers yet are threatening 9,000 layoffs. The mayor and chancellor are saying most parents opted for a hybrid model but they are included parents who didn’t fill out the survey at all. The mayor and chancellor say it’s safe for students to eat in their classroom but it’s not safe for indoor dining. I say it’s safer for indoor dining. At least restaurants will have working HVAC systems. The mayor and chancellor haven’t even been able to put out a school calendar yet. It’s two weeks before school.
Ms. Burris – NYC is not safe. We could have been. We are not. Who’s child are you will to sacrifice?
Are students safer at school or not at school? Honestly, we don’t know. There is COVID in the community. If a child is NOT in school and contracts COVID because they are in an unregulated “pod” or left to their own as mom works, is that a child that is “sacrificed” because schools did not open?If you do go back, and as I understand it the UFT plans to strike if they believe conditions are not safe, and you or your class need anything, please let me know. I will do my best to help. A sincere offer. Set aside the NYC summer school numbers. Look at Boston and LA and their virtual dropouts. I do not know what the sign on rates and attendance rates for NYC schools were in the spring, if they were published please show me where. Toilet paper on a stick is actually one of the CDC recommended tests.
Restaurants are open in NY everywhere but NYC. The mayor has stated he is not opening them or gyms because he wants all of the efforts to focus on opening schools. He told restaurants not until schools open. Frankly, I think that shows good priorities. I agreed with the spring closures and called for NYC schools to shut down. None of this is easy. It is a choice between two difficult options.
Two things:
Teachers and the public schools have been used as the failsafe for so many issues in our society. We cannot continue to do this. It’s unfair and exhausting. Expecting teachers to endanger their health because kids aren’t safe in their neighborhoods is too far to go.
It could instead been reported that with no notice and no infrastructure, teachers were able to engage 80% of their students on line in the spring. The framing of a “dropout” rate of 20% hides many factors – access to wifi being number one, followed by problems in connecting virtually with undocumented families, older kids working to support their families, illness and death in our communities. The Boston Globe was prominent in this reporting; they have outsourced their education reporting to the Barr Foundation, which is a group of privatizers.
Also, on the very same day that Boston’s schools were closed in March, the superintendent signed an MOU with DESE allowing a state takeover at any time. We’ve been in the Walton’s gunsights since we foiled their charter takepover in 2016.
Remember the first tenet of disaster capitalism: let no crisis go to waste.
Hello Christine,
Yes, thank you so much for this comment especially the first part. Teachers are expected to do so much – be a teacher, psychologist, negotiator, role model and on and on. And once again, when school starts in the fall, we will be expected to do more with less and many of us in dangerous conditions of buildings falling apart, water problems, unsanitary conditions, lack of materials, etc. It is unfair. But we can reject a lot of that expectation, too. I also like your second paragraph as well. Agree wholeheartedly. Thank you.
Thanks, Mamie.
One factor I left out above is that Boston is home to some 170,000 college students, soon to be arriving. They live in the same crowded neighborhoods as many of our students, with multiple roommates and take public transportation, as do our 7-12 graders. They patronize neighborhoods stores, where many of our students have jobs.
Reopening public schools is foolhardy. Meanwhile, I’ve seen virtually no criticism of the 42 charters which will open remotely.
It sounds like your argument basically boils down to taking care of vulnerable children. Perhaps CDC guidelines using toilet paper on a stick is adequate, but the toilet paper only moved for ONE vent. That seems to be fine for schools but not for restaurants? What will the children sitting outside a Taco Bell do when their mother gets sick? The mayor wants to open schools before restaurants to see what happens. Again, guinea pigs anyone?
And thank you for your offer. Yes. I do need help. I need a ventilated classroom where I can open the windows more than 2 inches from the top. I need circulation of FRESH air, not the re-circulated air system my school currently has. I need a bathroom with toilet lids, hot water, and ventilation. In fact, can you provide that for every school in NYC?
Yes. We do need to protect vulnerable children, but not at the expense of everyone else. There are ways to do this. The mayor and chancellor are not even entertaining this.
“Toilet paper on a stick is actually one of the CDC recommended tests.” Is this recommended by the CDC that was B.i45 (Before it45)
or A.it45 (after it45 made it the it45-censored CDC/watered down guidelines, & declaring that testing of asymptomatic, exposed to covid-19ers need be done/should not be done, as so “approved” while Dr.
Anthony Fauci has been in the hospital, recovering from surgery?!
“We don’t know.” Exactly. You’re a researcher. You do KNOW the protocols for using human subjects in research. Dr. Fauci has said reopening schools is an “experiment.” We both know there’s no informed consent in this experiment, and the potential outcome is DEATH or permanent disability. Forcing or coercing participation, which is what is happening to teachers and other staff, is unethical. It’s only considered acceptable when our government is pandering to parents demanding free daycare or to QAnon followers who discount the seriousness of this virus.
Another point: positivity rates are skewed when thousands are being tested and most are asymptomatic. Numbers are also lower than earlier in the pandemic because everything has been closed down. As we see openings, the environments don’t remotely resemble classroom environments. Anyone who has ever taught knows that. Remote learning isn’t ideal, but I’d take it over death. My community was especially hard hit by COVID with rates double the next highest infected community in Suffolk county. Once schools open we will see a spike again. It’s inevitable.
It’s easy for someone to sit behind a keyboard in a cushy home and dictate that others risk death in an ‘experiment’ whose outcome can be deadly. How sad that anyone would prioritize any other agenda over saving lives.
I’m disappointed that this blog would be used to advocate for experimenting with the lives of children and those working in education because one person, who does not have to return to a school next week, has made it a personal mission to push her agenda and opinions.
As a reminder: Dead kids don’t learn. Dead teachers don’t teach. Dead parents don’t parent.
Elizabeth,
This blog is open to different points of view. I don’t know the answer. Neither does Dr. Fauci. We discuss. We debate. We listen to one another.
“Toilet paper on a stick” seems vaguely reminiscent of the old fashioned white flag used to surrender (old fashioned because i suspect that if you raised a white flag in battle today, you would be summarily blown to bits without a second thought from Alexa or whatever bot happens to be making decisions)
So maybe what we should be lobbying for is not putting people who do not live with one another together in schools, but for providing assistance to families to help them through this temporary situation. Of course, if you frame it by the human stories of how this pandemic has affected childcare situations, it seems that opening schools again is the thing to solve these problems, but there are reasons why the numbers are so low now in NYC. People were not together inside buildings in groups that don’t live together.
When parents are telling me that they are home working remotely because of covid, but they really think their children should be back in school, I say to them, why are the standards of safety so high for you but so low for your children and the school personnel who are working with them on site?
I have the utmost respect for Carol Burris, but I feel this is a bad decision.
Massachusetts, too, has a low rate of infection, but the virus needs no one’s permission to travel.
In Boston, the overall infection rate is low, but averages hide important data. One neighborhood, East Boston, has an infection rate of 8.8%. It reflects the demographic one might expect: a high percentage of Latinx families living in multiple family dwellings, a substantial number of undocumented residents, many who work in face-to-face environments that have been declared essential, reliance on public transportation. 12% of Boston’s public school enrollment live in East Boston, and they attend schools spread across the entire city. Students in grade 7-12 use public transportation to get to school buildings.
From a research by a Boston middle school science teacher:
Some Boston neighborhoods have very high COVID rates
“COVID-19 data vary wildly from neighborhood to neighborhood in Boston, Sasaki points out. In East Boston, the percentage of tests coming back positive was 8.8 percent for the week ending August 12. It was 1.1 percent in Allston-Brighton and in the Beacon Hill, Back Bay, Downtown, West End, and North End areas.
The average for the whole city was 2.8 percent. But East Boston and several other high-COVID neighborhoods account for a disproportionate share of BPS students. East Boston residents, for example, make up 7 percent of the city’s population but 12 percent of BPS students.
So using the positive test rate as a measure of the risk that a person is infected with the virus, the average risk for BPS students is higher than the average risk for Boston residents.”
https://schoolyardnews.com/bps-is-in-the-covid-risky-red-zone-according-to-science-teachers-numbers-9b2798ad840a
It seems logical that similar conditions exist in NYC.
As of now, Boston schools will begin remotely, but some groups of students are expected to begin to return to school buildings October 1. These are vulnerable populations; SWD, ELL’s. No one doubts in person instruction for a child with autism, for example, will be more effective than remote. However, these are precisely the kids who will find it difficult to social distance, keep on masks, and use covid effective hygiene. Their teachers and support personnel will be at greater risk of exposure. In classrooms with more than one adult present, their risk will also be multiplied by that exposure.
Massachusetts’ commissioner of education, Jeff Riley has issued guidance that even in school systems which will begin the year with remote instruction, teachers are expected to report to school buildings to work. Teachers have objected that buildings are unsafe; years of disinvestment have left us with a lack of effective ventilation or HVAC systems, hot water and space. Riley seems to believe teachers are too lazy to do their work if no one can actually see them in real life. (Riley is appointed by Governor Charlie Baker, whose funders are the Kochs and the Waltons, so there’s that.) Other grownups work from home!
https://www.wbur.org/edify/2020/08/27/remote-learning-requirement
Here’s the perspective of the head of the Massachustts Teacher’s Association and an infectious disease physician at Boston Medical Center.
https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2020/08/25/should-mass-teachers-return-to-the-classroom-even-if-they-are-teaching-remotely
I also find it troubling to compare on-line charter instruction with public schools using remote teaching. Every teacher I know has been working to recalibrate their instruction anticipating that even if schools reopen in real life this fall it’s likely there will be a return to remote teaching. They are credentialed professionals in a career for the long haul. They are not Teach for Awhile recruits awaiting greater glory in some or another edu-business in a year or so. They will do all that is possible to provide the best teaching they can.
Yes, I’m haunted by the idea that public schools will take a hard hit from the vultures pushing screens, ed tech and vouchers. I don’t think exposing teachers, students and their families to a deadly virus is a fair sacrifice to forestall the privatizers.
Pitting teachers against those we serve is an old tactic. Let’s point instead to the failure to contain the virus and raise a coordinated response to it as other nations have. Let’s do what public school teachers always do: protect our students and their families as while looking to our own well being and that of our own families.
I think that schools should remain closed and that a massive effort should be launched to address connectivity and equipment in student homes, to ensure that kids get meals, to do safety checks, and to provide support for parents who have to work. I’m not particularly worried about a few months of remote learning opening the door to the Deformers who want to computerize our instruction, for I know that at its very best, the online instruction will be worse than in-person instruction is, and I think that this will be obvious. The bottom line for me is that you don’t experiment on kids and their teachers. It’s a matter of the precautionary principle. Carol is right that there are no good options here, but when one of those options is the potential for severe physical harm to children and their families and teachers, that seems to me decisive. But, in much of the country, what I think is irrelevant. The experiment will go forward, catastrophically.
Oh, there you go again with your scientific (risk assessment) approach and big words (precautionary principle) to the case with a potentially high impact outcome.
So what, SDP? Bob is correct.
Schools and everything else cannot really open safely, securely, so we feel safe, absent a national, coordinated strategy. That can inly start next year as long as we get the Trump and his party soundly defeated. This is the reality. They do not care about us, only about clinging to power for the 1%.
Having lost a healthy 45 year old former student, a NYC Special Education teacher, to this horrible virus early on, I can’t disagree more. One thing we all want is our children and students participating in in person school. We ALL worry about the reformers taking advantage of this situation, and God knows, Andrew Cuomo will never let a good pandemic go to waste when it comes to rewarding his charter buddies. However, all one has to do is look at the spread in SUNY Oneonta this past week to understand that even worse will happen once children are put back in classrooms. Rather, I’d like to see Dr. Burris putting her efforts into calling for schools to be as safe as hospitals.
I agree. The work that is needed is to make the schools safe and to come up with original ideas, like using other buildings (churches, for example) and the outdoors as classrooms, not to write essays about “courage, faith and discipline.” Faith in whom or what? I got sick in the last epidemic that coursed through our school, and I most certainly do not have faith.
And ventilation systems, bathrooms, hallways, and lunch time seem to be the overlooked areas in districts across the nation.
Perhaps the time that schools are closed could be put to good use renovating them so that they are NOT unhealthy places for students and teachers even in non-pandrmic times.
And to demolish schools that can not be fixed and build new schools in their place.
Never let a crisis go to waste, right?
Calling Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Fakebook, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, George Sorros, Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of the corporations and philanthropists who could certainly pool their cash on hand to finance the project.
And now, I will pay down on the couch and tell the good doctor about when the delusions started.
69% of Boston’s school were deemed deficient in air quality, ventilation and HVAC systems pre-covid.
The mayor (former leader of trades unions) could order renovations to our 123 school buildings, pleasing the tradesmen, employing local residents who need jobs and creating safe facilities for kids to return to on a rolling basis. Win-win-win.
But he won’t do it.
I think the stakes are too high. We are gambling with lives, not cash, and I know something about gambling.
My dad was a gambler and he was good at it. When he died at 79, my mother lived off his gambling money (known as a poke) for an entire year. My mother did not approve of his gambling so he hid his poke but she knew where he hid it.
Poke
1) A bankroll. 2) The place where one keeps that bankroll, as a wallet or purse.
http://www.dictionaryofgambling.com/gambling_terms/poker/p/index.htm#poke
When I was in my thirties, I spent more than a year at home teaching myself how to count cards and memorized the rules that maximize your winning when playing blackjack.
Then for several years, I made numerous trips to Vegas and Reno where I won enough to pay for all my expenses and return home with more money than I left with every time.
I stopped because it was not easy to focus like that for six to ten hours a day at the tables and not get caught counting cards. And, back then people were still smoking in public places and a lot of Vegas gamblers smoke. Counting cards is not cheating or illegal,l but casinos can refuse to let you play at their tables. When they catch a card counter, they share his/her mug shot and info with all the other casinos.
Call it gambling or experiment, it doesn’t matter, they should be in the same sentence with kids and their families.
They should not be in the same sentence.
Not just in the same sentence, but gamblers should also never be in the same casino with kids and their families.
Bad for the kids and families and particularly bad (distracting) for the gamblers.
I disagree. Well trained kids can be very helpful in giving hints about what cards the other players have. Who’d suspect a 4 year old?
Good point.
Sounds like you are speaking from experience.
In 1918-19, the New York City commissioner of health and AMA president Victor Vaughan wrestled with two bad choices. Vaughan thought the children were better off in school than they were in some of their housing situations. Chicago has similar issues. (See p 97, American Pandemic, by Nancy Bristow)
I wonder if we have similar housing in places now.
Generally, poor people in high dollar areas in and around NYC live in cramped, crowded quarters. The families of my ELL students often lived in shared apartments with a different family living in each bedroom. It was the only way they could afford to pay rent.
People simply can’t make an informed decision in the absence of a proper risk assessment for the reopening of their OWN school that includes detailed plans for testing and contact tracing., properly accounts for the uncertainties involved (eg, with the accuracy of the tests) and that considers details of the particular school ( student and teacher population, ventilation, school nurse availability, class sizes, etc)
It should be obvious but low “positivity rate” within a surrounding area is alone NOT a sufficient basis for deciding whether it is safe to reopen a school.
I agree, SDP. “Kids need learning” and “numbers are low” have not much to do with a proper, scientific evaluation of the situation made by a scientist who has been dealing with this kind of stuff for decades.
We can all learn the meaning of numbers related to glucose levels or body temperature but that doesn’t make us a doctor.
We and our kids do have time to wait and see what happens in Europe as schools start opening up. There is no need to conduct our own mass experiment within our inadequate healthcare system.
As a country, we’re dumb and we’re done.
Tough call. Very, very tough.
I appreciate (greatly) the comments here.
I’m in New York….my union is going in (as of this writing.) I am able to go in (as of this writing.)
I was talking to a parent a few weeks ago and something similar (though not as well composed) as what Carol wrote came out of my mouth. Carol said, “I believe we should try… especially for elementary kids.”
Agreed. “Try.”
I know there are lots of people who are in different places than me -in many senses of that word, “place”. I get that.
And, I certainly respect the reasoned perspectives of the people on here (Thank, God, for you inhabitants of this warm, sane little corner of the internet.)
Trump and his ilk, on the other hand….They actually make me feel ill. Physically ill. And, ashamed for our country.
P.S. someone (or someones) in my rural area of the nation swiped two of my Biden signs in recent days. The original and its replacement. So, as a project, me and some interested kids (young relatives of my wife) just made a new and improved “Biden 2020” sign. It’s hand painted on a wall of pressure treated 2X 4s, fastened together with some of those weird screws that defy typical tools, then buried 18 inches in my yard, anchored with a concrete footer. I’d call it a teachable moment but the project took much longer than a moment. But we did have fun including a classic ribbon cutting alongside the road. And, happy to report, the kids got some positive responses from drivers by….waves…beeps. And, I loved their descriptions of the other, not-so-happy with our sign, poop faced drivers, too.
BTW I think it would help if Joe Biden talked more about our children and grandchildren and THEIR futures. For a lot of really good reasons.
Did you just say that Biden was set in concrete?
The sign is anchored in concrete. Yeah. Just like I did when my Obama signs were stolen in 2008. Except that year I used a sheet of plywood, bright orange paint and lights at night -to make my point.
I’m ready to go there again if need be.
You should cover the sign with aluminum foil and hook it up to a 6 foot battery feeding a spark plug ignition coil.
6 volt
Not 6 foot
Self correct knows nothing about electricity
A gigantic, 6 foot tall battery is fine with me. Very dramatic.
I live in Fresno, CA – a bastion of conservatism. We had a fairly low number of cases – until we tried to reopen the economy. People are not careful, and we surged. My cousin posted a heart-breaking description of what she witnessed as her husband was hospitalized for an illness other than covid-19.
We have seen what has happened as schools have attempted to reopen- it hasn’t been good. I don’t know about others, bt I do not want my two 5 year old grandsons attending school in-person until we are certain we have this virus in check and an effective way to treat or prevent it. I’m not willing to sacrifice one child, one teacher, one grandparent- not anyone!
The view of teachers as martyrs who would “do anything” for students needs to end. This teacher contracted covid in the spring. Her district wants to terminate her employment because she forwarded emails to her personal account. She also requested to work remotely.
Oh, and she donated a kidney to a student.
“Mazzotta-Perretti, who donated a kidney to one of her students in 2009, so was particularly at risk from COVID-19, said she had contracted the coronavirus two weeks earlier at work. She still suffers from recurrent fevers, fatigue, migraines and other lingering symptoms, according to letters from her doctor that she provided to NBC News.
“She renewed her contract over the summer with the Massapequa School District, where she had worked for three years and was overseeing 1,200 special education students. On Aug. 7, after she gave her supervisor a letter from her doctor saying she needed to work remotely until at least Sept. 7, she was told she was being recommended for termination.
“Her supervisor said it was because she forwarded work emails in 2018 and 2019 to a personal email account she shares with her partner. She said she did so to be able to work on cases at nights and on weekends and was unaware it was not allowed. She believes that she was retaliated against for requesting to work remotely.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/school-employee-says-she-contracted-coronavirus-job-faces-firing-after-n1238572
No good deed goes unpunished in the world of education.
Teaching is one of those jobs that can really bring out the sadist or the masochist in a person. I’ve had and known both kinds of teachers. I would say the masochists tend to reign.
I wouldn’t experiment with kids and certainly wouldn’t suggest a mass experiment with them, especially not with an unpredictable and poorly understood disease. Who would?
Is Carol an expert with the disease and pandemics? Are the “low” numbers she quotes sufficient to describe the situation and predict how the disease will behave in the future? What if the numbers start going up? We know that then it’s too late to react, and regular testing is useless here where people have to wait a week for test results.
What’s the reason to hurry? Why not at least wait what happens in Europe where much more disciplined countries with proper healthcare and extremely low numbers open schools cautiously?
Knowledge can wait for kids for a year or so.
In case you may not have noticed.
In the US, scientists don’t make the critical decisions — or even matter, anymore.
And “Unpredictable and poorly understood ” (aka scientific uncertainty) are translated by nonscientists as “Things might turn out great. Why worry?”
Here’s an example
https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20200616/us-taking-wrong-approach-to-covid19-testing-expert-warns
”
Interpreting RT-PCR results
The probability of having a false-negative result with reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) is lowest during the first few days after symptom onset, according to research published in Annals of Internal Medicine. The analysis included data from seven studies that assessed RT-PCR performance. Results showed that the median false-negative rate decreased from 100% on the first day of infection to 67% on the fourth day of infection. The rate further decreased to 38% on day 5 — which is typically the day of symptom onset, according to the researchers — and 20% on day 8. It then increased from 21% on day 9 to 66% on day 21.
///
Note that even with RT-PCR testing, which is generally more accurate than antigen testing, the false negative rate can vary greatly depending on at what stage in infection the testing is performed.
Also note that in the studies, the false negative rate never went below 20% and was as high as 100% on the first day of infection and was still 67% on the 4th day of infection.
For this reason, quoting “positivity rate” without regard for test uncertainty (particularly false negative) is a fools errand.
But our politicians (Cuomo and others) are quoting “low positivity rate” as if there were NO associated uncertainty.
The “bare” number can be very misleading if the tests have a high probability of false negatives.
This is also highly relevant
https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/if-youve-been-exposed-to-the-coronavirus
“We know that a person with COVID-19 may be contagious 48 to 72 hours before starting to experience symptoms. Emerging research suggests that people may actually be most likely to spread the virus to others during the 48 hours before they start to experience symptoms.”
The kids who do return to school will find an oppressive and depressing environment. They will be constantly pestered to keep their distance, to stop playing with their masks, and repeatedly reminded about proper hand washing. If they need to sneeze, cough, or blow their nose, teachers will be providing inconsistent directives. The mask wearing alone will drive them crazy for hours a day. Teachers and administrators will have trouble drawing the line on safety violations as student complaints will add to the already pressure cooker vibe. Teachers and kids will be on constant edge with underlying tensions that are more than exhausting. This will be exacerbated as positive tests and infections produce cohorts of quarantined students and teachers. Subs, if schools can find them will struggle mightily trying to enforce safety protocols as kids take advantage of their inexperience. Many of their friends will be home with remote instruction, and virtually all of the fun, social aspects of school life will be absent. This new, dystopian version of the school experience may in fact be more damaging to the psyche of children than the isolation of staying home. This is one reason the trade-off of re-opening may just not be worth the risk.
Exactly. The pressure on teachers will be unbearable. Their responsibilities will increase manyfolds. Even in the university setting, I wouldn’t want to be responsible to enforce all the extra rules about mask wearing, sitting arrangements, cleaning. Chances are, I’d screw up. What if 3 students in my class and their families get sick? Will I be held responsible for that? What if I get sick? Why should teachers be sacrificed for a few months of learning?
Thank you, Rage. That’s it precisely.
Interesting points.
I guess we’ll need to ask the students….
Health care workers on the job . . . no different than teachers?
Can your school administrator describe the proper protocols for . . .
Sneezing?
Coughing?
Nose blowing?
And do they follow CDC guidelines?
At my husband’s school, students will be able to remove masks in class when they are seated 6 ft. apart. What if a student sneezes or coughs without as mask on? What do we do? First of all, have you ever seen a class of students react to a bee flying into the room or a student coming in late? It’s complete chaos. So, you can imagine if someone sneezes or coughs without a mask on. The response from the students will be interesting to say the least. But I’ve asked this very question. Crickets. In my mind that means just live with it and hope you don’t get sick.
According to CDC guidelines, no one should sneeze or cough into their masks!
CDC on Coughing or sneezing
https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/hygiene/etiquette/coughing_sneezing.html#:~:text=To%20help%20stop%20the%20spread,your%20elbow%2C%20not%20your%20hands
CDC Guidlines
Don’t sneeze , or cough
Or breath! Enough
Of all this spreading stuff!
But can I snuff?
Whatever you do, don’t gamble.
You can sniff
And you can snuff
Cuz breathing in
Will hold the stuff
Any other questions?
AskaDAMPoet.com
I read that NYC schools have poor ventilation systems. Teachers are scared and students are probably scared too. Every day we hear something new about this virus.
As one who recognizes the concerns with schools that remain closed, I think it’s risky to open schools at this time. Teachers feel responsible for their students. What a heavy load if one of their students gets sick. Not to mention how children will feel.
We can afford to wait a little longer and work to address the problems children face without schools. There should be an effort to reach students remotely, which doesn’t have to be online, especially students with disabilities.
Here’s a list of problems teachers face in reopening schools during this tough time. These aren’t easy to resolve.
https://nancyebailey.com/2020/06/28/22-reasons-why-schools-should-not-reopen-in-the-fall/
Imagine being the counsellor who has to explain to a class of 25 first graders that it wasn’t their fault that their teacher got sick and died.
This scenario will undoubtedly play out somewhere before it gets better.
There is another party who we aren’t even considering in this…we’ve got our politicians, we’ve got our teachers and support staff, we’ve got our parents and yes we’ve got our students. But our administrators are taking the brunt of the burden to make these decisions. I may not agree with opening my district, but the plan our admins put forth with the help of the reopening committee of which I was a part is extremely detailed. I feel as if we have probably the safest reopening plan I’ve seen to date, save complete remote learning. I don’t have a financial choice to stay out of the school, but the cohorts are so small and the staff exposure so limited that I feel we have a chance to keep the virus at bay. They are providing PPE for all of us, staff and students alike and I won’t be teaching students in person, but some of my colleagues will. We just have to take every precaution to do this right.
I salute my admins for working with everyone within the confines of our state regulations here in NJ. And the spectre of calling all remote is looming over our shoulders. We are all remote for the first two weeks while others in the state are opening first day and still others are remote indefinitely. We certainly shall see in the first two weeks what happens. Hoping for no spread, but my district conveniently chose a two week remote trial period. I’m starting to think it will be to see how it goes elsewhere. Such a sad time for everyone.
LG,
Do you teach in an affluent community? That can make all the difference. It shouldn’t, but it can.
I know you have a disclaimer of sorts up top, Diane, but I do think publishing this reads as tacit approval, and I think Carol’s stance is strikingly at odds with so many of the allies and supporters who usually stand with and support NPE; as such it does NPE no favors, and I fear, reputational harm. In one of her replies upthread Carol mentions that speaking to a checker at a grocery store “clinched” this for her. As someone who is a meticulous researcher, she must realize this anecdote, added to those about her grandchildren, is hardly the stuff on which to base a building re-entry decision that affects over one million school children and tens (hundreds?) of thousands of their teachers, therapists, counselors, etc.
The unions representing the city’s principals, teachers, custodians, and nurses–in other words the people on the ground and most familiar with the daily conditions in their buildings–are united in calling for a delay in reopening. So too are progressive parent leaders, including those of AQE and the NYC opt out movement (from HST). I mean, seriously, did you catch the AQE/MORE presser? (If not, I am looking for a public link, which I will come back and post here.) Listen to the parent leaders, teachers, elected officials, and school leaders. Think about which communities the latter are representing in a school system that is 70%+ Black and brown and tell me how this op-ed does not come across, at the very least, as tone deaf, if not worse.
I am responding to this blog post a little late, and had not intended to respond at all, but am doing so now because SO MANY people have emailed me this link and asked me what the hell is going on.
Here is the info to see the presser I allude to above. I highly recommend watching. It moves pretty swiftly and there isn’t much, if any, extraneous pontificating.
Topic: AQE/MORE Safe Reopening Press Conference
Start Time : Aug 27, 2020 10:37 AM
Meeting Recording:
https://us02web.zoom.us/rec/share/3sJNJurI0WJOSZXs-B-AebQMILnXaaa8gyAZ-_sKykiDwSKR2OG70CfrFKNwSycO
Access Passcode: T!nRSh6K