Politico reports that the rightwing effort to remove ANY separation between church and state has begun:
NEW LAWSUITS SEEK TO BUILD OFF TRINITY LUTHERAN RULING: The Institute for Justice, a libertarian advocacy group that defends school choice programs in court, brought two new federal lawsuits aimed at unlocking public funding for religious schools — and building off momentum from the Supreme Court’s 2017 ruling in Trinity Lutheran Church v. Comer. That decision, written by Chief Justice John Roberts, held that Missouri wrongly denied a church a state grant “simply because of what it is — a church.”
— One of the lawsuits alleges that Maine unconstitutionally excludes religious schools from one of the nation’s oldest school choice programs . Under the program, the state covers costs for students to attend a school of their choice if they live in towns too small to maintain public secondary schools. But under state law, those schools must be nonsectarian. “Maine’s denial of a generally available public benefit — tuition payments for secondary education — to Plaintiffs because their children attend a sectarian school violates the principle that the government must not discriminate against, or impose legal difficulties on, religious individuals or institutions simply because they are religious,” the lawsuit says.
— The other lawsuit targets a so-called Blaine amendment in Washington state , which prohibits state money from supporting religious institutions. Because of the amendment to the state’s constitution, Washington’s work-study program only allows college students to make money working at non-religious organizations. “In sum, under the State Work-Study Program, a student may work for the government, a non-sectarian non-profit organization, or an international for-profit corporation (even in one of its international offices), but she may not feed the homeless at a church’s soup kitchen or tutor a child at a church-run school,” the lawsuit says.
— “Although the plaintiffs in these cases live at opposite ends of the country, they face similar discriminatory laws rooted in anti-religious animus,” attorneys for the Institute for Justice wrote in The Wall Street Journal this week, noting the lawsuits “seek to build on” the Trinity Lutheran ruling. “A victory in their cases could clear the way for states to adopt programs that empower parents — rather than government — to direct the education of their children.”

Humanism is a religion and it is the religion taugh in school. The first ammendment to the U.S. Constitution should stop something like humanism from being taught in schools, but it does not. I wrote a well-sourced, detailed blog post showing that Humanism is a Religion, here: https://lisajacksondesign.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/humanism-is-a-religion/
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Huh? Where are the churches, temples, pagodas for this Humanism religion? Who’s the head of this “religion?” I’m a retired teacher, I never taught something called Humanism. Do you have something against humans?
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For the record, Joe, I feel as if I am answering questions asked by my parents. They were public school teachers and are also now retired. I have a great respect for you for having taught children. I teach children myself and know it is hard work and necessitates a love for children. I think it is great that you worked in a profession wherein you got to be the Christlike person who suffered the little ones to come unto you.
I understand what you are saying to me. I understand why you are saying it. You are a Christlike person. You taught in public schools. You just have no idea that you taught Humanism, a religion, in public schools. You are not alone. I doubt there are more than 2 public school teachers in the U.S.A. who are aware that they teach Humanism, a religion, in schools.
There is no textbook given to public school children called, “Humanism.” In the state standards of any of the fifty states, there is no mention of this “Humanism.”
However, if you read my blog post and click on the links and read what is there at those links, you will begin to see that they are the same teachings that you taught from public school. The same doctrines on the religious webistes of the humanists are in the standards and the curricula in te public school system.
Let me make a really quick summary. Humanism is a religion which believes in human goodness and morals. There is no need for commandments from God (although there are Christian Humanists who do believe in the ten commandments of the bible) to help people to know right from wrong. Humans naturally (without the necessity of guidance from God) know right from wrong and know what is ethically right or wrong or good or bad. There are no miracles. Everything can be explained by science. History is only true if it is proven via archaeology. The bible is not history, as it is merely a book.
A teacher cannot legally talk about his or her beliefs about God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost in a public school. My dad is one of my sources on this, but the DVD, “IndoctriNation” is also one of my sources to back this claim.
Atheism is NOT taught in school. No public school teacher can legally say tk a student, “There is no God,” although they would surely get away wit it easily and not get fired.
Humanism, however, is completely legal.
If a public school teacher were to tell questioning student why the bible is not used in school, it would go something like this:
The bible is not a history textbook. It is something you can learn at home, not in school.
There is no archaeological evidence for God creating the earth and the heavens and the animals. There is no archaeological evidence taught in schools about Noah, the flood, the ark, and the animals he transported. Therefore, these things are not taught in schools.
I am sure this is fine for you, as you probably like the first ammendment in the U.S. Constitution. I am sure you love the constitution, as do I.
I am simply pointing out that Humanism is indeed a religion, as you can see from my blog post and its link to the Humanist religion online. I am also simply pointing out that the same basic and fundamental teachings held up by the Dewey Decimal System and taught in schools, are also the main tenants of the religion called “Humanism.”
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Where can I get some of that good stuff you’re smoking L-F-H?
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Horse manure. I’m pretty sure your god doesn’t approve of you lying.
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If this is the “logic” you teach in your home-school, I feel sorry for your “large family”. They are going to have a devil of a time in college. You found a website from “Mormon Humanists” (a contradiction in terms if ever there was one), an article from a preacher in Alabama, and a brochure from a group claiming to be humanist. Sorry, but that is not “well-sourced. Basically your “detailed” blog post boils down to “humanism is a religion because I say so and if you disagree, we’ll just redefine the terms so that the conclusion is inevitable.”
Sorry, fail.
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What do you mean by “Mormon Humanists” being a contradiction? Watch yourself. I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon). I agree with the rest of your post, and I am not a supporter of this supposed “logic” from the original poster.
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Large-Family-Homeschooling,
My kid was never taught “humanism” in public schools. My kid was taught the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If that is what you call “humanism”, I can see why you don’t want that idea near your children. You seem to believe in the Trump golden rule being taught — treat others like dirt, especially if you are richer and more powerful than them. I hear that the Christian right loves Trump so much and wants their children to be taught to be just like the guy they adore. Maybe you can teach that to your children.
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I only skimmed the first blog post. Whoa! While I did notice a distinct absence of research skills, I did not see how you jumped to the Trump indictment, NYCPSP. Another post?
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I looked at your blog and “well-resourced” links. None offer evidence of your claims about what is taught in public schools.
I do see that you have an affinity for Tea Party political thinking and are opposed to the concept of sustainable development…likely because it was a major topic for the United Nations.
It is not necessary for you to attack public schools in order to homeschool your children as Mormons.
Public schools are forbidden by law to indoctrinate students.
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I totally disagree — humanism is not an organized religion.
I note that you left out the word “organized” … tricky, tricky, tricky … but that is what a religion is, organized (my definition) to recruit followers, program them to think the same and feel guilty for whatever sins a lspecific religion lists, and collect money from those programmed followers.
“Humanism is an approach to life based on reason and our common humanity, recognising that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone. While atheism is merely the absence of belief, humanism is a positive attitude to the world, centred on human experience, thought, and hopes.Oct 27, 2009”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/humanism.shtml
Religion:
1The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
‘ideas about the relationship between science and religion’
1.1 count noun A particular system of faith and worship.
‘the world’s great religions’
1.2 count noun A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
‘consumerism is the new religion’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion
Religious vs. Secular Humanism: What’s the Difference?
“The most commonly cited “essence” of religion involves supernatural beliefs, whether supernatural beings, supernatural powers, or simply supernatural realms. Because they also define humanism as fundamentally naturalistic, the conclusion follows that humanism itself cannot be religious — it would be a contradiction for a naturalistic philosophy to include the belief supernatural beings.
“Under this conception of religion, religious humanism could be thought of as existing in the context of religious believers, like Christians, who incorporate some humanist principles into their worldview. It might be better, however, to describe this situation as a humanistic religion (where a pre-existing religion is influenced by humanist philosophy) than as a religious humanism (where humanism is influenced to be religious in nature).”
https://www.thoughtco.com/religious-vs-secular-humanism-248117
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I can assure you that this and other generalizations made to split our country are not truth in any way. Erasmus was a humanist. Would you suggest that he was not a Christian? Right wing propaganda to the contrary, public schools are places where love and human consideration are as much a part of the Christian background of the teachers as it is anywhere else.
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The above was meant for the original post by LFH
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PLEASE do not assume that most Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are represented by LFH. The vast majority of Mormons love public schools, and the LDS Church has no private schools.
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Right. I am not a Humanist. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This religion mentioned is a separate religion, just like the Fundamentalist Mormon Church is a separate religion. Thanks for clarifying for others who may not be aware.
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I am not against religious groups, but EGADS…so many have wars over their “invisible” friend(s).
Why not just learn about other cultures and WORLD RELIGIONS?
We all know about the KKK and how crazy this group is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
https://www.history.com/topics/ku-klux-klan
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I have often advocated for more teaching of comparative religions in public schools. A person can complete K-12, and never read the Holy Koran, and never have any introduction to the religion of 20% of this world (Islam). All educated people, should have a basic understanding of the main religions of the world.
Our society is pluralistic. I have Hindus, Muslims, Baptists, Russian Orthodox, Catholics, and Mormons, living on my street! There is a Buddhist pagoda about a mile away.
Religions and religious literature can be studied in public schools (See Abingdon v. Schempp, 1963). The Holy Koran is one of the finest examples of early Arabic prose available. The Hindu Vedas are beautiful Sanskrit (Possibly the model for the “Star Wars” films).
“We must learn to live together as brothers, or we will surely perish as fools” – Dr. Martin Luther King.
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Yes we must learn to live together. But paying public money for religious schools breeds intolerance, not learning to live together.
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The same people who want g-d in the schools (the xtians) are the same ones who are vehemently opposed to what you suggest. They only want their god, taught their way. The very phrase “some Christians believe…” is anathema to such people. I’ve said for a long time the solution to religion in the public school is to allow it, but with the caveat that all who identify as Christians get a seat at the table to decide how it’s going to be taught. Just be sure to have a hazmat team standing by to clean up the bloodbath….
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@Dienne: I do not follow. Some people want a return of religion and school-directed prayer in the public schools. This is not going to happen! (See Abingdon v. Schempp). Many people of faith, want public schools to teach comparative religion, and have students learn the basics of the major religions of the world. How can any serious person be opposed to studying the Holy Koran as literature? Islam is the religion of 20% of this world!
Christianity can be taught as an historical subject, the development and spread of the Christian faith is necessary for the understanding of Western Civilization. The study of the crusades, is impossible to understand, unless the student has a grounding in the Christian and Islamic religions.
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Seems Libertarians have sold their souls. Once upon a time, as in the 18th century, they opposed forms of private power (aristocracy, state churches) that used their power to get the state to grant them special rights and special treatment. They were the good guys in those days. It’s deeply hypocritical that constitutional “originalism,” the divine dogma among Libertarian right-wingers these days, sanctifies the words of our Libertarian “founding fathers,” to such an extent that we must interpret our fathers’ words in the Constitution only as they meant them, at that time (as if it were really possible to do so with any certainty). Why? Because religious devotion to the words of the “founding fathers” cools when it comes to the many warnings “the fathers” gave about the threat of the concentration of economic power to the enjoyment of liberty (which is what they were against in those pre-Koch, pre-corporate days). So here we have the irony of a bunch of self-described Libertarians who argue that Americans “chose” an illegitimate President (stolen election), an illegitimate Supreme Court (Gorsuch), and an illegitimate Congress (gerrymandering, denial of the right to vote). A majority of Senators represents just 18% of the US population. Wrap your Libertarian head around that one! All of this Illegitimacy is an effect of the concentration of money. Libertarians have become the party of mindless adoration of “choice.” Same thing applies to “school choice.” Parents won’t get to “choose” their children’s education; it’ll be the Lords of Charter Schools (DeVos, DFER, Moskowitz, Coleman, Gates, Broad, Bloomberg….et al) who will determine the education of the children of these parents. George Orwell didn’t know the half of it.
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NO Thanks, DEFORMERS.
And now we have this: https://politicalwire.com/2018/08/17/investigating-trumps-ties-to-the-russian-mob/
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If parents want to send their children to religious schools, they should have to pay the bill themselves or get a scholarship from the religious sect. Many churches collect mounds of cash on which they pay no tax. They can afford to create scholarships. Most religious school offer poor quality education, and many of them are unaccredited. Wealthy people are using vouchers to offset tuition they would have paid for anyway. This is draining tax dollars from the middle class and poor students and sending it to the already privileged. This is a misuse of public money. Tax dollars should go to “common schools” that take all students, are democratically operated and accountable to the public. Everyone is better off when there are clear boundaries between church and state.
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Should be simple: Any public funds to a religious entity violates the establishment clause. Unfortunately, that red line has already been breached. Now, they want to build on the breach because they reject the clause.
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That’s the problem! Now the camel wants to push public education out of the tent as Don the con eagerly appoints right wing judges.
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@Arthur: Why do you feel this way? Public funds go to religious enterprises like homeless shelters, and drug rehabilitation centers, with almost no objection.
University students attend religious universities, with Pell Grants, and no one objects.
How is providing public assistance to a family who is sending their child to a religiously-operated school, an “establishment of religion”?
The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly, that assisting parents, in the financial costs of educating their children in a school, operated by a religious entity, is NOT establishing a religion.
Why do you think otherwise? Do you have some insight that the Supreme Court does not?
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K-12 religious schools indoctrinate their students into the religious. It is a well-established tradition over the centuries that taxpayers don’t pay for religious indoctrination.
That doesn’t happen in homeless shelters or hospitals or universities.
It happens in schools.
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I think otherwise because I have seen the growth of new private schools in response to the prayer in the schools issue, desegregation issues, and fear of lower classes. I do not want my money, taken as taxes, to go to promoting a peculiar way to tech children religion, segregation in the disguise of Christianity, a religion that is very important to me personally, or any other philosophy that means to splinter the country for the good of a few. Nor do I approve of those who want help from the government when it helps them personally, but criticize the government if it helps someone else.
I do not mind giving tax money to a homeless shelter. These people are adults. I wish the taxes might help homeless people more than they do, but I seem to be in the minority. I do not mind giving money to treatment centers for drug dependency or similar programs, for there is nothing wrong with public and private funding working together. What I do mind is the underfunding of schools and hospitals because of the relationship between public and private monies. This will only get worse if we go to vouchers.
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Vouchers are a form of money laundering. Sending the money through the parents to the school supposedly makes government aid to church schools constitutional. If money laundering is illegal for crime families, why not for government?
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It ain’t broke – don’t fix it.
We’ve made it decades in tens of thousands of schools keeping church and state separate. Teach about religion; don’t teach religion.
Is everyone happy? Of course not. Has anyone suffered? No. It’s like Churchill’s democracy – – worst form of government there is but the best one we’ve got. Separation is not perfect but moving the line only divides us more
Where does it end?
There’s a park on our temple grounds. Can I have my portion of taxes that goes to DPW shifted to the temple? I only swim in the country club pool. Can I have my portion of parks and rec tax dollars vouchered to the country club?
Baseball is religion in some places and football definitely in Texas. Can I get tax credits for my season tickets. (seriously).
Seriously – public education and public tax money should not support anyone or anything for some vs. all. And what is taught in public schools should not be restrictive of who can participate and not. Again – learning about religion provides mutual understanding and empathy. Learning religion in schools keeps some kids out.
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I like the way you see this. Once you blur the lines, the religious folks keep looking for more. In the case of education, those funds come directly out of the pockets the schools that serve the neediest students. How is it going to help the neediest if they keep getting less?
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I would add that teaching history is often teaching about religion. We have been doing this for decades too. Despite the abysmal record of some religious people in history (the Sand Creek Massacre, the Thirty Years War, the Spanish Inquisition……) historians manage to dance delicately around the conclusion that religion in the hands of some has been a disaster and in the hands of others a blessing. All in public school.
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@Roy: I agree that history is inextricably combined with religion. The ancient Egyptians had their pantheon of deities. Hitler thought he was an agent of God, fighting the atheistic Communist Soviet Union.
A person cannot have even a cursory understanding of Western Civilization, without a grounding in religion.
I think that public schools are simply not doing enough, to give students an understanding of the religions of this world. I personally, find studying religions to be fascinating. I have spent many enjoyable hours, reading the Holy Koran, and the Hindu Vedas. J. Robert Oppenheimer was a fan of the Vedas.
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Charles,
As usual, you don’t know what you are talking about. How many public schools have you visited? Please tell me the exact number. How many states have you visited in your tour of public schools? There are about 80,000 public schools. How dare you claim to know what they are teaching.
Based on what is happening in the public sphere, I’d say we have an overdose of religion, especially fake religion, people using religion to advocate for political solutions that are definitely not Christian.
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Q The United States is one of the most religious places on earth, but it is also a nation of shocking religious illiteracy.
•Only 10 percent of American teenagers can name all five major world religions and 15 percent cannot name any.
•Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that the Bible holds the answers to all or most of life’s basic questions, yet only half of American adults can name even one of the four gospels and most Americans cannot name the first book of the Bible.
Despite this lack of basic knowledge, politicians and pundits continue to root public policy arguments in religious rhetoric whose meanings are missed—or misinterpreted—by the vast majority of Americans.
“We have a major civic problem on our hands,” says religion scholar Stephen Prothero. He makes the provocative case that to remedy this problem, we should return to teaching religion in the public schools. Alongside “reading, writing, and arithmetic,” religion ought to become the “Fourth R” of American education.
Many believe that America’s descent into religious illiteracy was the doing of activist judges and secularists hell-bent on banishing religion from the public square. Prothero reveals that this is a profound misunderstanding. “In one of the great ironies of American religious history,” Prothero writes, “it was the nation’s most fervent people of faith who steered us down the road to religious illiteracy. Just how that happened is one of the stories this book has to tell.”
Prothero avoids the trap of religious relativism by addressing both the core tenets of the world’s major religions and the real differences among them. Complete with a dictionary of the key beliefs, characters, and stories of Christianity, Islam, and other religions, Religious Literacy reveals what every American needs to know in order to confront the domestic and foreign challenges facing this country today.
END Q
see
For some years now, I have been in correspondence with Academician Stephen Prothero. He advocates the teaching of comparative religions in public schools (As do I). He states that only 10 percent of American teens can name all five major religions, and that 15 percent cannot name any. I trust his research.
Only half of American adults can name even one of the four Gospels. His research lends me to believe that American public schools are not doing a proper job in teaching comparative religion.
I was educated in public schools. I have visited a half-dozen public schools in WashDC, installing wireless data routers. (What of it?)
I agree with Professor Prothero. Religion should be the fourth “R” in our public schools.
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I am not an expert on what the nation’s 80,000 public schools are teaching. I only know that this nation is a nation of religious illiterates. I trust the research of Professor Prothero. Since 90%+ of Americans were educated in public schools, and only half of American adults can name even one of the four Gospels, we can then properly deduce that American public schools are not doing an adequate job in teaching religious literacy.
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Charles,
You have no idea what is taught in public schools.
Explain why people who believe that dinosaurs and men co-existed are so numerous. That is not what is taught in public school science classes.
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I disagree. The curriculum for Fairfax County Public Schools is public record, and posted on their website. I agree that I do not know exactly what is taught in every one of the 80,000 public schools in the USA.
see
https://www.fcps.edu/index.php/academics/high-school-academics-9-12
As to the large number of people who are ignorant about Evolution and Science, there are many reasons.
-Some people take the Genesis Biblical superstitions/myths to be reality. They believe in a 6-day creation, and think that the earth is only a few thousand years old. There is a “creation museum” in Kentucky see
https://creationmuseum.org/
It has a full-size model of a dinosaur with a saddle. People sincerely believe in the creation story, and they are not interested in facts.
Why they believe this nonsense, is a matter of conjecture. Muslims believe that Mohammed (PBUH) is a prophet of God. Mormons believe that there was a vast pre-Columbian civilization in the Americas, and that Jesus Christ appeared to the Native Americans. Hindus believe in 300 million deities. Why? I don’t know.
One reason for the general ignorance about evolution, and the scientific truths of the universe, is that the 90%+ of people who attend public schools, are not getting the scientific education that they deserve. If public schools had a more rigorous science program, perhaps the number of people who believe in superstitions might be reduced.
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yes
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Academician Stephen Prothero states that religion should be the fourth “R” in our public schools. I agree!
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That will guarantee a dynamic economy. Not.
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No one is suggesting that studying comparative religions will result in an improved economy. Professor Prothero is postulating that improved religious literacy will enable more people to appreciate the political discourse about religion. It will improve our ability to have a peaceful and pluralistic society.
Understanding of Islam, might convince people to get legislation passed to forbid the horrendous and barbaric practice of Female Genital Mutilation, which is on the rise in this nation. I met a registered nurse some time ago, I mentioned female circumcision to her, and she had no idea that it was practiced anywhere in the world, let alone the USA.
I believe sincerely that our nation should encourage a healthy religious dialog. If we do not know anything about other religions, how is this possible?
Most people forget, that it was religious people who pushed for the abolition of slavery, and that many Christians including Quakers, operated the “Underground Railroad”.
You. more than most people, should know that education is not just about giving students the ability to earn more money. Education is about more than dollars and cents.
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You of all people, should agree that education is about more than dollars and cents.
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