Special Counsel Robert Mueller issued an indictment of 12 members of the Russian military intelligence for hacking the 2016 Presidential election.
Among their targets: Hillary Clinton’s emails; John Podesta’s emails; the Democratic National Committee; state election boards; a software company that makes election software for states. The Justice Department will follow up on the indictments.
Don’t expect them to fly to the U.S. for trial.
This was an attack on our democracy. If Putin can freely interfere in our electoral process, we have no free elections, but the candidates of his choosing.
Glenn Greenwald has made his living for the past two years scoffing at claims that the Russians interfered in our election.
Let him tell it to the judge. Or the Justice Department. Or Trump, who still thinks that the search for Russian hackers is a witch hunt. Ding, dong, the witch was found. At least some of the witches.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I do not think this will make any difference to Donald Trump. He is the Kremlin’s Agent Orange. Putin owns him.
Trump’s job is to cripple or destroy the United States and so far he is doing just that every single day a foot at a time.
It’s actually worse than interfering in the election, as we have seen on stark display in just the past few days. Russian intelligence has successfully aided and accelerated social and political dissension both domestically and internationally. The long term benefit to them will outlive one election by generations.
Peter Strzok was right.
The Russian goal was to disrupt our democracy and cripple our institutions They are succeeding The hearings were evidence of that. Putin has already destroyed one of our two political parties. It is ironic that he destroyed and captured the one that used to boast of its anti-Communist views.
“The long term benefit to them will outlive one election by generations.”
And it’s not like they’re going to just live off the dividends from the 2016 election. This will pay compound interest. It’s surely happening right now, will be happening this fall, will be happening on an ongoing basis from now on. And Americans can’t even reach agreement on whether it’s a big deal.
“This will pay compound interest.” Da, Comrade, Da!
FLERP!
And the reason there is any confusion as to the seriousness of the charge. Democrats do not know how to fight. Try envisioning a reversal of roles. Is it at all conceivable that Republicans would not be building a gallows on Pensylvania Ave? Several thousand rabid dogs were screaming lock her up at the convention.
The Democrats instead tell their members not to discuss this at Town Halls. Talk about local issues. Talk about healthcare.
Apparently, the Democrats do not think the American people can discern the difference between oral sex and Treason. The Republicans would have no such problem.
Joel,
Imagine if these charges were leveled against Obama. He would be impeached in a matter of days. And it would be bipartisan. And as you write, Hillary would be locked up.
Right on, Joel! That’s why Strzok’s testimony turned me into a giddy teenager for a little bit. It’s been so long since I’ve seen someone punch back at Republicans so effectively. Instead, Dems go back to the Blanche DuBois model and continue to immobilized by “they-ah vapahs.”
How can this possible be true when Putin told Trump, several times, that Russia was not involved in US elections. Trump believes Putin because Putin is SO honest.
I hate to think of what Trump will say when he gets a long private meeting with Putin and no reporters are allowed. What part of the US store is Trump going to give away? What is the hold that Putin has on Trump? Is it more than Trump’s love of dictators who don’t allow any protest? Is it his loyalty to Putin who wanted and worked to get Trump elected?
I asked John Dillinger if he committed any crimes, and he said “no.” I asked again, and he still said “no.”
I asked Bonnie and Clyde before they were gunned down, whether they were guilty of any crimes, and they were absolutely insistent that these rumors were false.
Settles the matter, doesn’t it?
I used to be a huge fan of Glenn Greenwald, not as much anymore. The evidence of Russian hacking and interference is pounding on the door, it can’t be dismissively ignored and pooh-poohed.
Our Great Leader Agent Orange speaks out.
………
Business Insider:
…Asked whether or not he believed Putin’s denial, Trump replied: “Every time he sees me he says, ‘I didn’t do that,’ and I believe, I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it. But he says, ‘I didn’t do that.’ I think he is very insulted by it, which is not a good thing for our country.”
Trump has repeatedly cast doubt on the CIA, NSA, and FBI’s assessment of Russia’s interference, calling it a “hoax” that the Democrats have used to justify losing the election.
“These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction,” his transition team said in a statement in December. “The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again.”…
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-i-really-believe-putin-when-he-tells-me-russia-didnt-interfere-in-the-election-2017-11
Also, if you read the entire indictment, you will see that Republicans were regularly asking Guccifer 2.0 for the information hacked and the Republicans were receiving it when they asked for it.
It is unconscionable that anyone does not care that the Republicans are getting help from illegal hacks of the Democrats’ e-mails.
And the hypocrisy is truly sickening. Can you imagine if it was Bernie Sanders or some other progressive’s e-mail being hacked and a selection of only the very worst out of context e-mails were used to pretend that the candidate was the most corrupt politician in history and even Donald Trump could be no worse than them?
I think it is similar to what we saw in Pete Strzok’s show trial yesterday. Instead of having a discussion of a person’s ACTIONS and whether those actions demonstrate corruption, the Republicans had to use some out of context rants and pretend that alone is evidence that this person would break the law. Strzok could have leaked — as the pro-Trump FBI officials leaked to Trump campaign surrogate Giuliani — to “get” this guy he didn’t like. But instead he just kept doing his job.
Glenn Greenwald is a hypocrite. Just not as evil of a hypocrite as the entire Republican party. For all we know their desperation to attack Strzok yesterday was because Guccifer 2.0 ALSO has the dirt on them.
The Money Quote: “Republicans were regularly asking Guccifer 2.0 for the information hacked and the Republicans were receiving it when they asked for it.
It is unconscionable that anyone does not care that the Republicans are getting help from illegal hacks of the Democrats’ e-mails.”
THIS is the reason Marcie Wheeler decided to go to the FBI. SHe took a huge risk as a journalist turning into a witness in an investigation. It
would burn up your cred pretty badly. There’s gotta be something deeply corrupt here and the Republicans are playing right into the Russian’s hand.
https://majorityreportradio.com/2018/07/11/marcy-wheeler-how-deep-does-the-russia-attack-go
In defense of Glen Greenwald, his criticism of the Russia probes are aimed at the MSM for publishing rumors, innuendo & falsehoods before verifying the information. Accepting leaks from the government officials as fact has led to the public being misled about the Iraq war & WMD, as one example.
He’s done some excellent reporting on how powerful corporations have used public law enforcement to crush animal rights activists who expose animal cruelty on corporate farms. https://theintercept.com/2015/07/28/dylan-roof-terrorist-animal-rights-activists-free-minks/
Ay ay ay. First, an indictment is not, as FLERP! said below, evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.
Second and much more importantly, the issue is not and has never been did Russia interfere with the election? They certainly tried, of course they did. All countries do interfere in other countries’ elections, the U.S. most of all. Whether or not their interference was influential enough to turn the tide is a big question. But the bigger question is and has always been the heart of the Mueller investigation: Did Trump collude with Russia to interfere with the election? There is still no evidence of this. A bunch of Russian military folks on an embarrassingly successful phishing trip does not in any way indicate that Trump was part of it.
This is what Glenn, myself and many, many other skeptics have maintained from the beginning. As soon as we see actual evidence of Trump colluding with Russia to steal the election we will be happy to believe it. In the meantime, this is just yet another of the “See, we told you so!” that ends up petering out to be not much of anything.
Incidentally, let’s say you get the evidence you hope for and Trump is impeached on collusion grounds. What then? Does “President Pence” roll off your tongue easily? Or do you still harbor fantasies that HRC is going to be swept up to her rightful place?
Did you miss the section where the Republicans were asking Guccifer for the dirt they got from illegally hacking Democrats and it was being provided?
You seem to be saying that you and Glenn Greenwald believe that since Nixon won the 1972 election in a landslide, that it was no problem that his campaign was the knowing beneficiary of illegal actions designed to help them win.
I watched the Strzok testimony yesterday. It did not surprise me that the right wing Republicans in the House would give Trump the benefit of the doubt while deciding that just because an FBI agent texted something nasty about Trump (after he insulted the parents of a dead soldier), it is clear and convincing evidence that the FBI agent committed a crime to help Trump win. It doesn’t surprise me that right wing hacks in the House would claim that a negative personal text is far more important evidence than the fact that at no time did the person who sent that private text ever try to undermine the Trump campaign by his actions and provide negative information to the Democrats or to journalists.
I expect that double standard and hypocrisy from right wing Republicans. But not from self-described progressives like Greenwald and yet that is exactly what Greenwald does.
“As soon as we see actual evidence of Trump colluding with Russia to steal the election we will be happy to believe it.”
And what, pray tell, will you accept as actual evidence? Trump has shown himself to be very adept at passing the buck when it comes to dirty work. It is quite clear that the Russians were actively involved in getting Trump elected. It is also quite clear that the Trump campaign at the very least did nothing to “out ” the Russians.
Trump will just say the evidence is fake and most if not all of his deplorable supporters and minions will swallow it not knowing or caring it is toxic poison.
Lloyd,
He said that exactly.
And it is quite clear that Trump has done nothing but kowtow to Putin while insulting everyone else. Many of the European leaders Trump regularly insults are quite conservative! But somehow Putin is completely inoculated from any real insults or criticism from Trump. And then Trump insists on meeting with Putin alone?
It’s hard to understand why people are repeating the right wing talking points that there is absolutely no evidence at all so why is anyone concerned? Especially when I highly doubt anyone would be this insistent that there was absolutely no evidence if any of the names were changed and someone they didn’t hate so much was the victim. Imagine if Chelsea Clinton received emails from Russians who were offering dirt on Bernie, and in response the Clinton campaign orders the top campaign officials in for a meeting with those people. Which leads to the Clinton campaign doing a direct favor for Putin, and then having Russia make public illegally hacked e-mails from the Sanders’ campaign specifically designed to help the Clinton campaign by hurting Bernie.
If that had happened, I would have been appalled. And I’m guessing so would some of the people who are insisting — when it is Trump campaign — that they see absolutely nothing there to convince them that those facts I just described were just a happy coincidence.
Perhaps most incriminating is that when there were questions about the Russian hacking, Trump covered up that his top campaign staff had been offered dirt on Clinton from Russians. He lied. Just like Trump lied when he wrote his son’s lie about what the meeting was about. If this had been a different President, they’d be calling for her head.
Trump is doing exactly what Putin wants him to do: disrupt the Western alliance. Destroy the EU. Turn the US into an international laughing stock. I wonder why there will be no note-takers allowed at his summit with Putin.
As usual, thank you, Dienne. It’s been remarkably easy for the DNC and the deep state to lead everybody to believe their narrative. I appreciate your continuing to speak up in here. We need to support public schools, but we don’t need to buy into the narrative about Russia.
Have you ever posted on this blog before, Kat?
kat is probably a Russian sock puppet — a troll paid to side with anyone that casts doubt on the fact that Russia supported Trump in the 2016 election and hacked the DNC to find dirt from personal emails, dirt that could be twisted to support Trump, where individuals thought they were free to express how they felt.
Yes, Lloyd, “the DNC and the deep state” says it all. And that final sentence is a doozy!
The DNC is not the Deep State. The Deep State is the Koch brothers and the members of ALEC and their allies and minions. Russia is also a member of the Deep State.
In short, the Alt-Right is the Deep State funded by Koch and ALEC, Russia, et al.
The Democrats are too disorganized to be behind the curtain of the Deep State.
Sorry, Kat. But you too are clueless. Perhaps willfully. Whatever, if you’re a Trump troll, you should take your nonsense somewhere else.
dienne is clueless. I’ve already outlined – on a previous thread on this blog – the conspiracy that’s already been established between the Trump campaign and the Russians, and that was BEFORE the new Russian indictments came down. There is much more to come.
Face it. The conspiracy is very real. So is treason.
Article III Section 3, U.S. Constitution.
Mueller alleges Guccifer 2.0 is Russian intel in disguise, if he can prove it, bring on the evidence.
But let’s be clear, the indictment doesn’t reveal any collusion between Trump and the Russians. It doesn’t even contend that the Russian interference swayed the election.
Also, if revealing the internal emails of the DNC is equivalent to “hacking” the election due to the public’s outrage about their self-dealing and dishonesty, isn’t that a good reason to hold the Democrats to a higher standard, in addition to investigating who revealed their dirty laundry?
Mueller is not finished.
“if he can prove it, bring on the evidence”
It seems that you do not understand that legal investigations do not run on predetermined schedules. The evidence, or lack thereof, will be known soon enough.
Your interpretation of the selected quote is also disingenuous. Using your reasoning, attempted murder is not a crime.
GregB,
I think the issue is that attempted murder is not a crime if the Republicans do it. But just making a joke about attempted murder and not actually attempting to murder anyone IS a crime if the Democrats do it.
That has been a right wing talking point for a long time, but it’s sad to hear self-described progressives saying that is so.
To rephrase a bit in an even more basic formulation, this reasoning suggests that attempted murder is not something we should be particularly concerned about.
I am flabbergasted to see seemingly reasonable people react with a shrug of the shoulders to the fact that a hostile, foreign government is working to undermine the integrity of our elections. It’s really depressing, actually.
re: attempted murder analogy
Headline: “Mr. X was murdered by Russia!”
Evidence offered: indictment of Russia for attempted murder
Of course murder and attempted murder are both crimes, but there is a difference between them. There is also a difference between proving who committed a murder, and accusing someone of attempted murder.
You say “The evidence, or lack thereof, will be known soon enough.” Ok, then I’ll wait for that.
You are on a roll, FLERP! Your comment reminded me of a note I made a while ago.
Writing about the far right tilt of the German courts, Kurt Tucholsky noted this in an essay in 1922, “For 314 murders by the Right, 31 years and 4 months in prison sentences, plus one life sentence. For 13 murders by the Left, 8 death sentences, 176 years and 10 months in prison sentences.”
The reactionary audacity in the courts was incredible. In a case of attempted murder against a prominent columnist, Tucholsky sums up the defender’s opening statement about one of the two defendants, “[He] wanted to rehabilitate himself to his family through the murder! He wanted to make his dear father happy!!” They were sentenced to just two years!
I’m always impressed by your ability to read, like, books and sh!t.
You sound like you’re a fan of Little Britain!
Why would you claim that the hack of DNC e-mails reveals “self-dealing and dishonesty” but scoff at all the evidence that the Trump campaign was getting help from the Russians?
It’s that hypocrisy that bothers me the most.
I find it more than ironic that it is often the very same people who insisted that the DNC e-mails released from the Russian hack provided clear and convincing proof that the DNC took specific actions to insure Hillary Clinton won the primary are the same people who say “you cannot judge the Trump campaign on innuendoes unless you have absolute proof.”
There is a true hypocrisy with those who say “So what if we know for a fact that Trump Jr. was offered dirt on Hillary from Russians and then invited those Russians offering that dirt to a meeting at Trump Tower attended by top officials of the Trump campaign and then the Trump campaign ordered the RNC platform to be changed to exactly the position that Putin wanted. It isn’t proof!”
But then we hear “but a DNC official said something bad about Bernie so that’s all the proof I need to know that the entire DNC is a corrupt organization and the entire primary was crooked.”
The hypocrisy astonishes me. At least the people who have decided that the entire 2016 Democratic primary was corrupt should be ashamed to be claiming “but we don’t know for sure whether the Russians helped Trump so shut up until you provide us more evidence because we have such high burdens to meet before we are willing to bash any Republicans as corrupt before the evidence has met our high standards.”
If you are going to say the 2016 democratic primary was corrupt based on a few e-mails, it takes a real chutzpah to deny that the general election was corrupt because the evidence hasn’t convinced you yet.
At least be consistent instead of bending over backwards to give right wing Republicans the benefit of the doubt you refuse to give to Democrats.
Is it hypocrisy when extreme confirmation bias is responsible for a Trump lover to condemn Hillary on alleged evidence vs Trump with how many of his former staff members pleading guilty to Muller and/or cooperating with Muller to end up with a smaller or no prison term?
How many guilty pleas have there been so far in Mueller’s probe vs how many guilty pleas from Hillary’s presidential campagin staff and/or the DNC?
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/Guilty-Pleas-Muellers-Probe–475015953.html
Factbox: Under investigation or indicted – the Trump aides facing scrutiny
(Reuters) – The federal investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election and potential collusion by Donald Trump’s campaign has targeted – directly or indirectly – a growing group of presidential associates.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-aides-factbox/factbox-under-investigation-or-indicted-the-trump-aides-facing-scrutiny-idUSKBN1HH3HH
BTW, this, Diane, is patently false and borders on slander: “Glenn Greenwald has made his living for the past two years scoffing at claims that the Russians interfered in our election.”
Glenn earns his living writing for The Intercept (and before that writing for The Guardian, Salon and his own blog Unclaimed Territory, as well as his law practice). His writing covers numerous topics ranging from animal abuse to Muslim/Palestinian rights to progressive politics and more, most of which I’m pretty sure you’d agree with. He’s also written at least six books which he gets royalties from, and his husband is a city councilman in Rio. Very little of his money comes from debunking Russiagate – he mostly does that on Twitter for fun.
Hello Diane and all,
Glenn Greenwald is an award winning journalist who’s perspective is extremely important and valuable. I follow him closely and I disagree with your characterization that he has “scoffed” at claims that the Russians interfered in our election. Instead, he has demanded clear evidence and he has pointed out (with numerous examples) that the United States (including HRC) has interfered in many elections of other countries. The United States has also orchestrated coups in many countries including ones where democratically elected leaders have been in power.
One of Glenn’s main points is that ALL countries are guilty of these types of actions and that so far what has been revealed about Russian interference hardly effected the outcome of the last presidential election. Others have also made the point that our own U.S. corporate media gave Trump billions of dollars worth of free advertising. That gave him far more advantage in the election than any Russian adds on Face Book.
Jill Stein attempted to prove with clear evidence through the courts that our own state governments colluded in massive voter suppression that DID in fact effect the last presidential election. But she was thwarted in that effort and not allowed to have her law suits heard because the court said she was not a legitimate party that would be personally effected by any change in the election outcome. HRC could have joined Jill Stein’s law suit but she would not do so. Why?
We don’t need to blame the Russians for our completely corrupt political and electoral system. We have done that all on our own. Of course we need much better cyber security. But we also need money out politics and publicly funded elections, no private companies allowed to control voting machines, Instant Run-off Voting and Rank Choice Voting, Proportional Representation, full and fair debates that are not controlled by private companies, and a fair playing field for third parties and alternative candidates.
Hacking of our election is a crime. When it is perpetrated by Putin and Russia, the goals are clear. To destroy our democracy. Don’t make excuses for Glenn. I’m not buying.
There is no doubt the US election system needs an overhaul and that we are guilty of the same types of interference in other country’s elections. That doesn’t preclude Russian interference in this election. Everyone should listen to this interview with the journalist Marcie Wheeler.
Marcie Wheeler has an amazing capacity to synthesize massive amounts of information about the Trump Russia investigation. After she received a seemingly innocuous text message from someone she won’t name after the 2016 election, she decided to go to the FBI about it. She’s been reporting on the Mueller investigation since it started & after digging into the story that text message took on a new meaning.
If she’s right, it’s going to lead up to some $#it hitting the fan in a few weeks when Manafort’s trial starts.
https://majorityreportradio.com/2018/07/11/7-11-how-deep-does-the-russia-attack-go-w-marcy-wheeler-m
There was a short piece in WaPo about Wheeler going to the FBI—not something journalists would normally do—because she
had serious concerns that people she’d interacted had committed crimes. As a journalist, turning into a witness in an investigation
would burn up your cred pretty badly. So there’s gotta be something interesting here.
If US voters can’t choose our own president, but let Putin choose, we are totally screwed
There is no doubt the US has interfered with elections all around the world, including fomenting coups against popularly elected officials who didn’t back US corporate hegemony.
However, that fact doesn’t preclude Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election. Trump & his cronies are trolls and destroyers with no alternative plans.
America’s real strength has been that we’ve not had too many of these
flamethrowers running the show.
Marcie Wheeler has an amazing capacity to synthesize massive amounts of information about the Trump Russia investigation. After she received a seemingly innocuous text message from another reporter after the 2016 election, she decided to go to the FBI about it. She’s been reporting on the Mueller investigation since it started & after digging into the story that text message took on a new meaning.
If she’s right, it’s going to lead up to some $#it hitting the fan in a few weeks when Manafort’s trial starts.
https://majorityreportradio.com/2018/07/11/7-11-how-deep-does-the-russia-attack-go-w-marcy-wheeler-m
There was a short piece in WaPo about Wheeler going to the FBI—not something journalists would normally do—because she
had serious concerns that people she’d interacted had committed crimes. As a journalist, turning into a witness in an investigation
would burn up your cred pretty badly. So there’s gotta be something interesting here.
Did we interfere with the Russian election and elect Putin?
Thank you so much, Daniella.
“The United States has also orchestrated coups in many countries including ones where democratically elected leaders have been in power.”
This argument does not pertain to election interference, it makes a parallel to Russia taking back the Crimea (& other moves suggesting intention to re-establish post-WWII territorial buffer zones). Yes, transparency in our foreign interventions would be nice, like, “we’re protecting our oil prices/ et al [mostly trade] issues & here’s why that’s strategically necessary to protecting our freedoms.” Often the motives are clear enough, but lipstick is applied, & it’s really the hypocrisy we hate – & being pre-empted from a public discussion of the strategy.
Here’s the parallel: “the United States (including HRC) has interfered in many elections of other countries.” I like Scott Shane’s reporting on this (NYT 2/17/18). Long-time CIA operative/ head of Russian desk Steven L Hall agreed, & stated current Russian activity is merely the digital version of Cold-War-era machinations by both sides. But he and Loch K. Johnson (“the dean of American intelligence scholars”) agreed: “In recent decades, Russian and American interferences in elections have not been morally equivalent. American interventions have generally been aimed at helping non-authoritarian candidates challenge dictators or otherwise promoting democracy. Russia has more often intervened to disrupt democracy or promote authoritarian rule.”
As for interfering in other countries, I don’t recall that we helped to elect Putin.
Exactly, Diane.
I am also one of admirers of Glenn Greeneald for her dedication to civil liberty and integrity of journalism. I agree with her contention that 1) we should be extremely cautious about the allegation of Russian involvement in national election since the mainstream media jumped the guns to directly/indirectly link Russia with election outcome with scant evidence at the very beginning; 2) DNC and powerful establishment democrats deflect their audiences from their blunder on campaign strategy by shifting all the blame on foreign elements. I think Glenn is more concerned over the declining integrity and ethics of journalism and free press since 9/11 and Iraq, and the way the mainstream media frame the suspicion of Russian intervention after the election result is definitely something that cannot be dismissed. At the same time, however, I find that Glenn put herself in a very precarious position because of the way he frames the issue(I don’t know the degree of skepticism if not entire dismissiveness, though) and the timing she called for the challange. Her mentor and admirer Jim Rosen criticized her for eclectic stance on the issue.
I guess her skeptical stance on Russian involvement possible stems from what she found out about media attitude on Iraq War, Chelsea Manning, and Snowden case throughout years of her investigation. I don’t know how much she invests in this issue compared to other ones, or how/if this indictment would change her initial attitude. It’s just one of those issues she’s covering right now. We should not use the blaming of Russia as an excuse for failing election strategy or fractured democratic system on one hand. But we should not dismiss the allegation of their intervention as hearsay anymore, regardless of its connection to Trump or not.
The irony of the present situation—I.e., attacks on the FBI by Trump and GOP—is that Hillary was far ahead of Trump in the polls until Comey came out 11 days before the election and said he had re-opened the investigation into her emails, which later he recanted. Her lead on the polls collapsed. That gave the election to Trump. Now Trump believes that the FBI conspired to defeat him. If that were true, Comey would have remained silent. If Strzok wanted Trump to lose, he would have told the media about the Russia investigation. Why did the FBI make the HRC Investigation public yet keep the Trump-Russia Investigation quiet. This is a topsy-turvy world.
Diane, I don’t think Trump ‘believes’ anything, he just grabs the lever that supports the narrative of the moment & bullies subordinates/ congressmen & core into following suit, counting on their lack of will [subordinates/ congressmen] or cognitive dissonance [core] to wash the 180’s out of consciousness.
Comey was a frenemy cuz Comey (a)swung the election for him, but (b)that makes Trump look like a barely-won-it weakling – so Trump’s actions follow the conflicting narrative: he lets Comey hang out a few mos in case Comey proves to be a seriously loyal friend in Justice Dept despite the bad look; dumps him as soon as he fails that test.
Yeah, Glenn Greenwald has done some good reporting. He’s also tried to blow off the Russian hacking of the election, which was very real and very dangerous. Hell, even the writers at the National Review are admitting it all happened. Even the late Charles Krauthammer admitted it, and that was LAST summer. There’s much, much more evidence of it now.
If you are still denying it, then you just don’t want to know or you are cognitively challenged.
Not buying it, Diane, at least not yet. Still not seeing hard evidence, nor do I automatically believe Rosenstein, et. al. And Glenn is not the only skeptic. I’m not defending the Russians, but the truth will serve us all better than wishful thinking.
What are you not buying? Did you even read the indictment? If so, what allegations in the indictment do you “not buy”?
Well, allegations are not convictions. I’m not an expert on the Russia investigation, but I have read many credible challenges to the veracity of the allegations, most of which simply ask for verifiable evidence. The example that comes to mind most readily is that the DNC computers were not and, as far as I know, still have not been examined by the Federal investigators (e.g., the FBI). Not saying there was no Russian involvement, just interested in proof.
I mean what specific allegation in the indictment do you not find credible, and why?
Charles,
I suggest you fly to DC and ask Mueller—the Republican who earned a Purple Heart in Vietnam as a Marine—to show you the evidence. Clearly you are far wiser than he.
I want to add that Muller was also awarded the Bronze Star with Combat “V” and two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals with Combat “V”.
The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States, distinguishes himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service … Mullers Bronze Star was clearly marked for being earned in combat.
Mueller had originally considered making the Marines his career but explained later that he found non-combat life in the Corps to be unexciting
What was the Glorious Fake Orange Tan doing during the Vietnam War? Trump avoided Vietnam with five deferments, four for college and one for bad feet that never stopped him from participating in contact sports.
In college, Trump stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.
But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.
In an interview with The New York Times, The Kremlin’s Agent Orange said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.
It’s obvious that if the Great Liar really had bone spurs, they were not painful. Since bone spurs in the foot don’t always create problems (some people don’t even notice them), treatment is not needed in every case. I have bone spurs in both feet and if inflamed, the pain can be crippling. Trump would remember that pain. He never had any pain from his alleged bone spurs.
Muller has demonstrated courage his entire life and was a real war hero. Muller, a lifeline Republican who has lived his life by the Marine Corps motto, Semper Fi (always faithful), was respected by both Democrats and Republicans until President Fowl Mouth the Bully launched his campaign of lies to discredit him.
Trump has been a serial liar, a business cheat, a womanizer that cheated on all three of his wives and even his mistresses, a fraudulent, failed businessman, a bully, and a coward his entire life.
Lloyd: “Trump has been a serial liar, a business cheat, a womanizer that cheated on all three of his wives and even his mistresses, a fraudulent, failed businessman, a bully, and a coward his entire life.”
Well spoken truth. How do we get rid of him? Pence isn’t the answer. We’re screwed until we can get rid of the whole bunch. The GOP is working to hurt average people.
This year we have two chances to get rid of them or set them back dramatically until we can sweep them out of our house and drive them back to the caves of the underworld that they crawled out of.
Those two chances are M&M, Muller and the Midterms.
The GOP is the party of avarice and racism
f you are still denying it, then you just don’t want to know or you are cognitively challenged.
This is off topic but of grave concern to me.
Why is there money for more nukes and nothing for Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, ACA, CHIP and Social Security? What do these people expect to do with $90 million on new updated and shiny nukes? Destroying mankind in order to save it seems to be the ‘thought of the day’. Is there no common sense in our government anymore?
…..
Trump gets his nukes:The House and Senate both voted to approve $90 million for a new nuclear weapons program. Now in closed-door negotiations over a final bill, the new more “usable” nuclear weapons will pose an entirely new kind of security threat.
The GOP WILL spend billions on defense then starve Social Security and Medicare
This one flew right under my radar, thanks for the heads-up, cm. The $ piddling but the plan sucks: (a) adding to lo-yield nukes for ‘conventional battlefield’ runs counter to deterrent theory; (b) timing! Way to undermine our position on Iran & NKorea, fools.
Thanks, Diane, for responding to my comment directly. I read you faithfully and love your advocacy for public education and teachers.
I must admit, though, I’m very disappointed in your position on this particular issue. My comment was about substance, but your response was about personal character. Related but separate subjects. I value integrity in people, too, but it is not a guarantor of truth.
In this case, I think the loathing lots of us feel for Trump is making us desperate for something, anything that may bring him down, and desperation may be clouding our judgement. Can’t afford to let that happen. Let’s fight him with facts, not speculation.
Charles,
Please read the Mueller indictment. It is filled with facts, not speculation.
My loathing for Trump is based on facts, not speculation. He has stated he wants to roll back women’s right to control their bodies. He has appointed administrators at EPA who are determined to roll back regulations that protect our air and water. He has appointed people to Interior who want drilling and mining in our National Parks. He has appointed as Secretary of Education a person who has campaigned against public schools for 30 years. He has demonstrated a hostility to other democratic nations and sought to break up the alliance of democratic nations. He has expressed admiration for tyrants. I could go on and on, but I think you are aware of the facts.
Wow, this is so depressing, and not for why you may think. Both parties are owned by their corporate donors.For starters, both parties completely support the military-industrial complex, the tax-payer funded private police of the corporate oligarchy creating regime change when ever it fancies a nation’s oil, minerals etc, creating massive human suffering paid for by us. Face it. This Russia thing is a distraction. Oh, remember “weapons of massive destruction?” Glenn Greenwald is right.
“Both parties?” That’s a cop out. Both parties were the same in 1973 and only right wing shills who wanted to protect a corrupt President were saying that investigating Watergate was a “distraction”.
Trying to protect our democracy is never a distraction. And what is depressing is hearing Americans demanding that those who subverted democracy should be allowed to continue to do so. That’s the most depressing thing I have heard in a very long time. Protecting democracy is a distraction? One has to live in an entitled world of privilege and believe that their white privilege will protect them to believe that.
Amen, Annemarie!
Annemarie,
So you think it is of no importance that the Russiam Military Intelligence Service hacked into the computers of at least one major political party, as well as the computers of at least one state election board? Is it okay if they choose our president, outer senators, congress members, and governors. If so, why? It doesn’t concern you that Putin chooses our government?
I suspect both these posters would have cared a lot if the campaign being helped by a foreign country was the Hillary Clinton campaign.
I suspect these are the same kinds of paid trolls who were posting all during the election. I have no doubt that after Mueller’s indictments, they are working overtime. Have Annemarie or Charles Browning ever posted before about education issues?
Never.
The Mueller indictment included some of the fake names that the trolls were using to post their propaganda.
“Alice Donovan”, “Jason Scott” and “Richard Gingrey” (from page 14 of the indictment) were some of the names they used.
It’s probably just a coincidence that Alice Donovan — the fake name the Russian trolls were using — and Annemarie Dewey have the same initials.
I apologize in advance if Annemarie Dewey and Charles Browning are just very concerned Americans who felt obligated to post right after the Mueller indictments that the Russia investigation is a waste of time. I just find it odd that they both would come to a blog about public education and their very first posts would be to repeat the right wing talking point that the Russian investigation is a “distraction” (while being sure to bash the Democrats as absolutely no different than the Republicans – which we know from Trump’s actions in 18 months is a lie that no one but a troll would post after seeing what the Republicans have done.)
Anyone who is posting non-stop that there is absolutely no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans and the Mueller investigation is worthless is most likely a troll. I don’t even think Glenn Greenwald is claiming those things.
I believe I have commented before, but can’t remember exactly. Also, not a troll, just a “concerned American.”
Charles, you have every right to be concerned. We have a president who is ignorant of history, who spent his life in night clubs chasing women, who has done business for decades with the Mafia in his casinos, who went bankrupt so often that no American bank would lend him money, and now he is on the world stage, making our country look stupid.
CB, please define what you mean when you allege you are a “concerned American”?
Thank you, Annemarie! Distraction at a minimum!
Wow, Kat. Do you ever actually read?
Let us accept your argument that “Both parties are owned by their corporate donors.” Which party is more likely to be changed at the grassroots level? And if you answer neither, what is your strategy and level of engagement to be part of an effective third party movement that will displace either of the two major political parties? Or, if third party creation is not your thing, how are you willing to engage to change one of the major parties?
The Russia “thing” is hardly a “distraction.”
It’s very real and very dangerous.
Trump, his campaign and top Republicans have committed treason.
Really, there’s little question about any of this. As all of us will soon find out.
I am an IT professional, and I have worked as an election judge. There is every possibility that there was unauthorized “hacking”, and hostile interference in the conduct of the 2016 election. This is going to be interesting.
As opposed to authorized hacking.
Here’s how the Orange Monster takes this.
….
From TheHill.com: White House: Russia indictment ‘consistent’ with claim of no collusion
The White House on Friday said the indictment of 12 Russians for hacking Democratic officials during the 2016 election is “consistent” with President Trump’s claim his campaign did not collude with Moscow’s election meddling.
“Today’s charges include no allegations of knowing involvement by anyone on the campaign and no allegations that the alleged hacking affected the election result,” White House spokesperson Lindsay Walters said in a statement. “This is consistent with what we have been saying all along.”
The statement is the White House’s first official reaction to the indictment, which will complicate Trump’s planned summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday…
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396919-white-house-russia-indictment-consistent-with-claim-of-no-collusion
Trump’s lies are growing in number and he is getting through to millions of people daily. He is too ignorant to hold a press conference but Fox, campaign rallies and Twitter are spreading what he wants to say. The Orange IDIOT needs rallies to boost his ego.
………………………………..
4 Ways to Combat Trump’s Endless Mendacity..By Robert Reich
…As the political season heats up, Trump is ramping up his lies through his three amplifiers: Fox News, rallies, and Twitter.
According to The Fact Checker’s database, the average daily rate of Trump’s false or misleading claims is climbing.
…The biggest problem is his lies aren’t subject to the filters traditionally applied to presidential statements – a skeptical press, experts who debunk falsehoods, and respected politicians who publicly disagree.
The word “media” comes from the term “intermediate” – that is, to come between someone who makes the news and the public who receives it.
But Trump doesn’t hold press conferences. He doesn’t meet in public with anyone who disagrees with him. He denigrates the mainstream press. And he shuns experts.
Instead, his lies go out to tens of millions of Americans every day unmediated.
TV and radio networks simply rebroadcast his rallies, or portions of them…
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/4-ways-we-can-combat-trumps-endless-mendacity/
Trump’s pick of Kavanaugh is meant to ensure the wealthy control elections. This is one more stake in the heart of our democracy.
……………………………..
Brett Kavanaugh, Who Has Ruled Against Campaign Finance Regulations, Could Bring an Avalanche of Big Money to Elections…Intrercept
THE ELEVATION OF D.C. Circuit Court Judge Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court could have a profound impact on the rules governing the American democratic system.
In recent years, the Supreme Court has swiftly remade the landscape of American politics, gutting 1960s-era civil rights laws restricting voter suppression, sharply weakening labor unions, and deregulating the campaign finance system to allow for wealthy individuals and corporations to exercise greater influence over elected representatives. With President Donald Trump’s pick for the Supreme Court, that influence is poised to grow.
Kavanaugh’s appellate court decisions and public comments suggest that he will accelerate the trend toward a political system dominated by wealthy elites — often operating in the shadows, without any form of disclosure…
In decision after decision, Kavanaugh has embraced this theory and wielded the First Amendment as a cudgel to unravel decades of laws designed to ensure that ordinary Americans are not squeezed out of the electoral process by organized economic power….At a March 2016 event at the American Enterprise Institute, a neoconservative Washington think tank, Kavanaugh was asked point-blank if he believes that “money spent during campaigns does represent speech, and therefore deserves First Amendment protection.” His answer: “Absolutely.”…
https://interc.pt/2mdgkiE
This is for Lloyd. I’ve been reading Diane Ravitch’s blog for years. I fight Common Core and the horrible state tests, . It’s an uphill battle and I’m glad I have Diane in my corner.
I’m pro-Bernie and, like Dienne, am appalled at the nasty way the DNC and Deb Wasserman Schultz blocked Bernie. I am not a fan of Clinton or the current Democratic establishment. Yes, the Democrats are serving up a load of garbage, just like the Republicans. I am sorry that so many people who are on my side with respect to the takeover of public schools are now blindly following what the deep state wants them to.
I usually don’t post much, because of situations just like this; I am shaking all over after having someone as familiar to me as you are, Lloyd, say such awful, nasty things to me! I am a teacher like you are, Lloyd! I am pretty much the only person in my entire school who knows what’s going on with the anti-public school movement. They all seem to think that the Common Core “curriculum” is the cat’s pajamas.
Please ask yourself why you would immediately use the term “Russian” in your response to me, without waiting to learn more. I imagine I’m not the only shy one reading this blog.
So if you’re “appalled” and consider our sneering commentator an ally, what are YOU DOING other than snipe and whine?
What is the “deep state”? I have heard this term used only by Trumpistas. They think the bureaucracy is standing in the way of their fascist plans.
The Deep State is defined as a body of people, typically influential members of government agencies or the military, believed to be involved in the secret manipulation or control of government policy. The Deep State works in the dark using dark money to manipulate elections and legislation.
The Koch brothers and the members of ALEC, their minions and their allies fit that definition exactly. There is no similar organization on the left. The closest thing on the left ore organizations funded by George Soros and His Open Society, but they operate more in the open than in the dark.
George Soros launched his philanthropic work in South Africa in 1979. Since then he has given over $32 billion to fund the Open Society Foundations, which work in over 100 countries around the world.
The Open Society Foundations work to build vibrant and tolerant democracies whose governments are accountable and open to the participation of all people compared to the level of influence that the ALEC private-sector members hold over its public-sector members has been controversial. According to The New York Times, “special interests effectively turn ALEC’s lawmaker members into stealth lobbyists, providing them with talking points, signaling how they should vote, and collaborating on bills affecting hundreds of issues like school vouchers and tobacco taxes.
Does the Open Society Foundation sound like ALEC?
Kat, who do you think the Deep State is?
The Deep State is NOT the DNC. It is the GOP and the Koch brothers and their ALEC organization.
Trump and the GOP are more of a threat to the United States’ Constitutional Republic than the Democratic Party is.
Attacking the Democratic party only makes it worse and plays into the hands of the Alt-Right Deep State. Trump, Russia and the GOP love it when anyone bashes the Democratic Party. Bashing the DNC plays into the hands of the real Deep State.
I agree that there are individuals in the Democratic Party that are not working for the best interests of most of the people in the U.S., but those Democrats can be replaced if more voters vote in the primaries and repeat what Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez did.
I suggest you and Dienne77 (or whatever number Dienne uses) get over what happened to Bernie in 2016, and stop attacking the Democratic Party and the DNC. Instead, work to replace the current leadership of the DNC with people like Alexandria — one person at a time.
Change comes from within but nothing will change if all Berienies followers do is keep attacking the Democratic Party when the real enemy is the Trump, Russia and the GOP.
Do you know who Sun Tzu was and what “The Enemy of my Enemy” means?
Anyone that repeatedly attacks the Democratic Party while ignoring Trump, the GOP, and the Russians becomes the Alt-Right Deep States friend.
Lloyd. Thank you.
Here is what I don’t understand about “Kat”.
“Kat” says she has been reading Diane Ravitch’s blog for years and has been fighting the Common Core and the horrible state tests.
And yet “Kat” only chooses to post – after years of reading the blog – to insist that there is no evidence that Trump is anything but upright and demanding that we stop talking about the serious issues Mueller is finding.
I have noticed the way to call out the fakes is to ask them to describe what they think about Donald Trump. The sock puppets say lots of things like “Democrats are as bad as the Republicans”.
But the sock puppets don’t seem to be able to offer any serious criticism about Donald Trump. They might say that Democrats are just like Republicans, but they will never straight out say something that is highly critical of Trump. As in – Trump is corrupt and willing to enrich himself and his company at the expense of the United States. As in – Trump has lied repeatedly to the American people.
So, how about it, Kat? Maybe if I hear any real criticism of Trump or you able to write the words straight out: Trump is a liar who has lied repeatedly to the American people and his meeting alone with Putin is absolutely wrong and highly unethical.
Or maybe you don’t think Trump is terrible at all, Kat, which is what I suspect.
Why don’t you tell us straight out your opinion of Trump, because we certainly know that you have a very low opinion of the Democrats and a very low opinion of the Mueller investigation.
Is Trump a liar, Kat? Has Trump been repeatedly lying to the American people? Trump trolls never admit that about Trump.
Dear Kat. If you are parroting the same old tired worn-out Russian-produced propaganda, like the lie that the Dems “blocked” Bernie, or using the term “deep state” – then you are part of the problem. You’ve been suckered. Maybe willingly.
Can a sock puppet be “suckered”?
It doesn’t pay to go against Putin. I’m posting this because I don’t believe Trump has any idea of who he is meeting. I couldn’t get an URL on this article.
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Boris Nemtsov Joins List of Dead Vladimir Putin Critics
By TERRY MORAN LONDON — Feb 28, 2015, 12:08 PM ET
1.) Russia’s top investigative body says it is looking for a motive in the slaying of prominent opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, who joins at least six other critics of Vladimir Putin who have died since his first term as president.
2.) Anna Politkovskaya
The Russian journalist and human-rights activist was shot and killed inside her apartment in October 2006. She was a fierce critic of Putin’s war in Chechnya.
3.)Alexander Litvinenko
The former agent for Russia’s Federal Security Service was poisoned with a highly toxic radioactive element shortly after he made a series of accusations about secret Russian government involvement in terrorism, and then publicly accused Putin by name of ordering the assassination of Politkovskaya.
He died in November 2006, 21 days after he was poisoned.
4.) Sergei Magnitsky
The accountant and auditor was imprisoned in November 2008 after exposing massive corruption. He was found dead in his cell a year later.
Authorities ruled his death a heart attack, but supporters claimed Magnitsky was beaten to death.
5.)Stanislav Markelov
The leading Russian human-rights lawyer had represented Politkovskaya and other anti-Chechen-War dissidents. He was shot to death outside in Kremlin in January 2009.
Also killed in the shooting was Anastasia Baburova, a freelance journalist.
6.) Natalya Estemirova
The human-rights activist and documentary filmmaker was abducted and executed in July 2009. She was the first winner of the Anna Politkovskaya Award, given to human rights defender in a conflict zone.
7.) Alexei Devotchenko
The popular Russian actor renounced two awards he had “received from Putin’s hands” because he was “ashamed.”
“I’ve had enough of all this czar-state stuff,” he wrote in a blog post.
Devotchenko was found dead in his apartment in November 2014. Russian investigators originally told reporters his death “was of a criminal nature,” but they later said they found he cut his hand and hit his head after drinking too much, and bled out, according to The Telegraph.
Trump owes Putin big-time. We will never know unless someone tells or his tax returns are released.
Mueller may be our only hope to stop Trump and seriously hurt the Alt-Right Deep State machine
“Why Robert Mueller Probably Has Trump’s Tax Returns
“I believe Mueller has already obtained tax returns in the Russia investigation,” Renato Mariotti, a former federal prosecutor in the Securities and Commodities Fraud Section of the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Chicago, said on Twitter on Aug. 10. He later wrote in The Hill he often used tax returns in his own federal investigations, and that it is almost a necessity in an investigation like Mueller’s. It’s also done without knowledge of the subjects of the investigation.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-09-18/robert-mueller-likely-has-donald-trumps-tax-returns
Oh, give Kat a break. I think what she & Dienne (& maybe Annemarie) are pointing up is something we’ve mostly all here agreed to before the Trump election began to make insidious divisions among us: both parties have sold voters down the river – Dems, post McGovern, threw their lot in w/neoliberalism, thus becoming barely distinguishable from Rep centrists, abandoning unions et al middle-class public goods, which pushed both parties to the right, causing Reps to fold in fringe rwnjs while leaving much of tradl Dem base out in the cold. Hence our present demise.
The group repped by Kat & Dienne is not happy w/Dem focus on Russian interference, calling it a “distraction,” because they feel it is an easy out & takes the heat off pressuring Dems to clean up their act & start winning elections again by representing the people instead of big $ interests to whom they are beholden (which, again, makes them hardly distinguishable from centrist Reps so why even vote).
Now me, I have no qualms leaving all that squarely at the feet of the Rep party starting w/Reagan (& consequent to 16 yrs’ Rep admins): their pusillanimous response to automation/ digitalization/ globalism was to deregulate & untie every knot left in place by New Deal between a thriving middle class & the rich/poor divide of 1929-1946. [Basically, trickle the $ up fast & let the most powerful grab & keep the biggest pieces of the shrinking pie.]
By the time WClinton came around the $ had already trickled up & those w/biggest pieces were calling the shots. It really doesn’t matter that HRC had a history even back then of pushing for universal healthcare & poor kids/Moms etc, the die was cast.
You can call it deep state or whatever: there has always been corruption in politics, on both sides, but the dereg under Reagan/ Bush Sr, signed off on & used by WClinton & continued under Bush Jr – culminating w/Cit-United decision – made it all legal & child’s play to thwart democracy [1 man 1 vote] – & to impose free-market values over wkg/middle-class American jobs & well-being – from late ’80’s up to present. No “party” – Dem or otherwise – can turn that ship around w/o getting the $ out of politics [publically-funded campaigns step #1].
Personally, I am fine w/using whatever pearl handles Trump gives us [Exhibit 1, longtime biz deals w/Russian oligarchs + Russian election interference = possible treason, or at minimum obstruction of justice to cover it up] to bring to the attention of the electorate the consequences of this dereg – to begin to understand the legislative/ regulatory roots that have led us to govt as pay-to-play ping-pong. I challenge the Dem party to take up the cause as the centerpiece of its platform.