Mark Weber, who blogs as Jersey Jazzman, was interested in a part of the DeVos’ 60 Minutes interview that most reviewers overlooked. She made the claim, based on “studies show” that competition with private schools improves public schools. He devotes this post to debunking that claim.
The effects of competition are tiny. They are “not modest,” he writes. They are “tiny.”
He asks, is choice a reasonable substitute for equitable funding, and not surprisingly, concludes that it is not.
If “choice” is introduced as a substitute for things like adequate and equitable funding, the overall progress of the system will be impeded. The sad fact is that the “Florida Miracle” has been grossly oversold; the state is a relatively poor performer compared to other states that make more of an investment in public education. Can that all be attributed to policy? No, of course not… but Florida is a state that makes little effort to fund its schools.
In any case, DeVos’s contention that public, district schools see improvement when there is competitive pressure is just not held up in any practical sense by research like this. As I said in my last post, the effects sizes of things like this are almost always small. In this case, the effect is exceptionally small; in practical terms, it’s next to nothing.
The idea that we’re going to make substantial educational progress by injecting competition into our public education system just doesn’t have much evidence to support it. I wish I could say that conservatives like DeVos were the only ones who believe in this fallacy; unfortunately, that’s just not the case. Too many people who really should know better have put their faith in “choice,” rather than admitting that chronic childhood poverty, endemic racism, and inequitable and inadequate school funding are at the root of the problem.

Competition doesn’t necessarily yield results beneficial to the public if that’s not the goal of all parties. If teachers & principals whose goal is to educate kids the best they can are competing with charter operators whose goal is to turn the most profit in the briefest time, what qualifies as a “win”?
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Betsy Devos after her interview with 60 minutes has destroyed her reputation among her peers. It has been reported that betsy is not walking with that stride any longer. This woman has been scorned and she can no longer walk with her nose in the air as people now look at her in a totally different light.
Tiger Woods was at the top of his game at one time, he was a nasty know it all person who was cheating on his wife daily, disrespected people and walked by people as if they were just in his way. Then one night everything changed as Tiger Woods was humiliated by his wife who found out about all the cheating. Woods went out that night, had some booze and some drugs and crashed his car.
Since that day Tiger Woods has never won another tournament. Tiger Woods no longer walks with that strut. Tiger Woods entire life went to the toilet. Fast forward Betsy Devos.
After devos performance on 60 mins, Devos has ridiculed herself and rumor has it she was embarrassed to fact her family members and friends. In the past Betsy would be the elephant in the room but now she has been reduced to a mouse. Devos has now got to live with this for the rest of her life. Devos never should have exposed herself because now everyone really knows her for her she truly is.
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I hope she does more TV interviews.
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Don’t understand why she continues. What could she possibly be getting out of this that makes it worth all that? She’s already got money.
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She has God on her side. (snark alert)
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“. . . has destroyed her reputation among her peers.”
Nah, it hasn’t done that. If anything her peers will reinforce their xtian fundie beliefs that were “put down” by Stahl (at least in their brains).
Now has she shown how shallow and lacking in the intellect that it takes to do the job? No doubt!
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Lenny,
“What could she possibly get out of this. . . ?
Personally, she can get the supposed satisfaction of “helping the peeons*.”
On a cultural note, she believes she is helping the broader fundie xtian religious right turn all public schools into xtian madrassas.
*Yes, that’s spelled correctly.
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It is, indeed, spelled correctly! 🙂
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In an era of fake news and research, we need people like Mark Weber and Mercedes Schneider to set the record straight. Many of the so called “miracles” are more hype and spin than substance. Choice does result in significant improvement. When choice is carried to the extreme as in many cities such as Detroit, the choice impact is negative. I would like for a city to invest in its urban youth with fully funded and equitably supported schools to see what type of change occurs. The evaluation should be conducted by legitimate educational researchers, not economists or half baked “think tanks.” Using real estate to fund education short changes most urban systems where the needs are the greatest. We need to figure out a more equitable way to fund our schools.
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Just think about how crazy that is.
We have an entire “movement” staffed with public employees that offers NO direct benefit to kids in public schools, but instead insists that kids in public schools might benefit indirectly from the schools these public employees prefer. Maybe. If the market theory holds.
They don’t do their actual job. They do another job and offer that this other job they’re doing might eventually benefit the 90% of schools they ignore. She’s announcing that public schools are the last priority. If public schools happen to benefit from her promotion of charters and private schools, well, that’s the absolute best she can offer to 90% of people. We’re supposed to thank her for this “work”? Why? She’s admitting she’s offering absolutely nothing to 90% of families.
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Oligarchy mentality: the smaller the number of kids/parents who can benefit from her policies the more she feels that her policies are appropriate?
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Ed reformers write whole papers denying that charter and voucher schools harm public schools.
This is the bar now. They’ve gone from promising the public they would improve public schools to congratulating themselves for not actually harming public school students.
That gets a gold star. Not harming 90% of US students. Forget helping them! That’s unimaginable, apparently. We could never ask for THAT.
They have managed to so lower expectations from public school families that Besty DeVos not actually destroying every Michigan public school is something we’re expected to thank her for.
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The capture is so complete it’s breathtaking. DeVos’ team cannot bring themselves to support a public school – any public school- at a PTA meeting.
That has to be a new low in the annals of ed reform. Ignoring public school students while standing in a room full of advocates for them. That takes dedication. They all must be up for awards at the next Jeb Bush convention. I didn’t think they’d pull it off.
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Benefit is in the eye of the beholder.
Benefit is only tiny or nonexistent if one assumes that Deformers actually mean improvement in the quality of education when they talk about benefit of competition.
But business people mean profit.
The “benefits” of “competition” are not tiny if you are the one who stands to profit.
If you are the one who owns a holding company that is leasing a building to a charter school (which competes with public schools for scarce dollars) at an exorbitant rent, the benefit (to you) can be quite large.
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Allegedly, both DeVos and Trump (and the rest of those that worship at the altar of avarice) learned a vital lesson from Joseph Goebbels that, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
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It strikes me that we are spending a lot more on education than we did thirty years ago. This whole issue got me to wondering about things I do not know. How much are we spending relative to the basic cost of education in 1990? Are class sizes and teacher loads down or up? What portion of our public expenditure is going for testing? What portion is going for administration? Is the cost of education rising faster than the rate of inflation?
These question would certainly bring different answers if I asked different people. I claim these are not questions that have simple answers. How much greater is the complexity of questions that appear on high stakes tests given to an eighth grader?
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“It strikes me that we are spending a lot more on education than we did thirty years ago.”
Are you sure about that? Are you talking about fed budget or state budget (& if state, which ones?) Some of these comparisons (esp re: fed budget) aren’t even corrected for current dollar value, or worse, for pop increase. Others are contradicted when expenditures are expressed in different terms: I remember PISA singling out USA in a recent year for being the only OECD country whose % of GDP spent on ed had declined from the previous year. And none of the natl comparisons I’ve seen attempt to correlate an increase in ed spending w/ the precipitous increase in child poverty over 30 yrs…
There are some states whose ed budgets have stagnated or declined since the ’07-’08 fin collapse. And others (like MI) who are just waking up to the possibility that school choice has raised their ed costs (or IN which is still expanding school choice la-la-la-style w/o totting up the increase).
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Have you been drinking ALEC’s misinformation Kool-aid with its cherry-picked facts?
Of course, the cost of education has increased from thirty years ago, and one of the biggest factors is the increase in students.
In 1984, there were 39.2 million students in public schools. In 2014, there were 50 million — an increase of 10.6 million children.
And that is not the only reason for the increase. There are others ones too.
http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2015/mar/02/dave-brat/brat-us-school-spending-375-percent-over-30-years-/
Inflation also plays a role and I’m sure expensive high tech products are adding dollars to that total.
In 1986, the expenditures per pupil student was $3,724. The same buying power today would cost $8,460.24
Then there’s this:
“The world’s developed nations are placing a big bet on education investments, wagering that highly educated populace will be needed to fill tomorrow’s jobs, drive healthy economies and generate enough tax receipts to support government services.
“Bucking that trend is the United States.
“U.S. spending on elementary and high school education declined 3 percent from 2010 to 2014 even as its economy prospered and its student population grew slightly by 1 percent, boiling down to a 4 percent decrease in spending per student. That’s according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development’s annual report of education indicators, released last week.”
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-09-18/while-rest-of-the-world-invests-more-in-education-the-us-spends-less
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Thanks for responding. My question really stems from noticing some things locally we do that we did not do before. As I said, I really have no idea about the economics of education. It just struck me one day that we are spending much more on administration than we did, much more on testing than we did, and way more on health care than we did in1990. I sort of sensed that teacher loads are up and real salary is down (relative to cost of living)
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I recall that Eva Moskowitz and the NYC Charter Center made a similar claim that competition from her charters raised scores in nearby and co-located public schools. As JJ points out, however, scores are no way to judge school improvement as we’ve seen precisely the shift in focus to test prep from a well rounded education at the local public schools, which don’t have the resources to do both. Also, and importantly, the studies generally fail to look at the test score effects of neighborhood gentrification, which are significant given that most charters, including Success, were initially and exclusively located in fast gentrifying parts of Manhattan (South/Central Harlem) and Brooklyn (Cobble Hill), rather than the City’s stubbornly poorer neighborhoods including the South Bronx.
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It is difficult for public schools to compete in a zero sum game. For every “choice,” there is a budget reduction. More “choice” leads to depleted budgets and stranded cost for public schools. It is mathematically impossible to fund multiple “choices” for the same dollar. Everyone gets less money, or cuts have to be made. Choice increases inefficiency, and the questionable results are not worth the disruption and destruction.
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Noah Gotbaum, thank you making those good points.
Also, that study they cited was very suspect.
The “nearby schools” were chosen by a researcher who was absolutely clueless as to what NYC public schools were and the scale of those schools. The choice of which schools to compare to made little sense.
Although you are correct that Moskowitz has opened a single school (or none) in many Bronx Districts that have high poverty rates, and opened 3 elementary schools just for the students in one of the very richest school district in the city — District 2/Manhattan. It is always weird when a charter school that claims to be helping at-risk kids would have three times as many schools in a low poverty district than a high poverty one. Good thing the journalists covering education in NYC are so clueless that they take every claim Moskowitz makes at face value and don’t think to do the research to see if it is true (or are too lazy).
And remember, Eva Moskowitz demanded that the SUNY Charter Institute allow her to drop priority for at risk kids after they happily allowed her to change the location of one of her schools from a very poor district to a very rich district. When SUNY heard she wanted to drop priority for any at-risk kids, they didn’t bat an eye in rushing to do her bidding.
And some of those schools now have as few as 25% economically disadvantaged students.
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The last school you refer to was Upper West Success in the heart of the Upper West Side – The old Brandeis HS campus on W 84th – which, as you point out, is and always was predominantly white and non-poor, unlike the public schools in the building. To make room for UWS, the DOE was going to move out a transfer high school which included 50 teenage mothers (and their kids) into a rat infested warehouse in Washington Heights. We raised hell and the DOE didn’t move the school, thank goodness. In the end, Moskowitz was not able to fill her seats at UWS, including being a full class of 25 kids short in year one, despite claims of massive wait lists. The whole thing was disgusting. And still is.
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I truly don’t understand the relevance of competition here. What are schools competing for? What are the rules? How do they select the winner?
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Thank you, Máté Weirdl, for posing the pertinent question. There is some kind of ‘catch-22’ in the logic here (drawing from a recent thread)– dammed if I can untangle the tortuous logic, but I expect the factors involved include bus model [for-profit] vs inst model for the broad public good [not-for-profit], narrow job-training goals vs learning how to learn for flexibility/ innovation — the whole seems confounded for lack of ed goals, hence conflict on what achievement is, hence conflict on how to measure it!
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Discover what The Young Turks said about Betsy DeVos –
Betsy DeVos Interview is TOTAL DISASTER.
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