Florida Governor Rick Scott’s appointee to the State Board of Education has proposed a constitutional amendment to allow private schools to be funded as part of the state’s obligation to public schools.
If a parent doesn’t like public schools, she proposes, public money should go to private schools. The state hard also proposed eliminating the Blaine amendment, which bars public spending on religious schools.
The issue of public funding for religious schools was on the ballot in 2012, and voters rejected it 55-45.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Perforce this makes this guy’s “private schools” public.
Cross-posted at https://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/Florida-Madness-Chair-of-in-Best_Web_OpEds-America_Education_Education-Costs_Education-Funding-171031-724.html#comment677885
with this comment, which has links at the above address:
Privitization of public schools is ongoing in almost every state. The Demolition of Public Education is so much more than enriching the hedge funds and privateers. Look what happens when legislatures take over oversight The Koch brothers have had their hands in North Carolina for a while. North Carolina Plans to Adopt Koch-Funded Social Studies Curriculum | Diane Ravitch’s blog
What better way to end real history. They know democracy depends on shared knowledge.
Civics Lessons Financed by the Koch Brothers | Diane Ravitch’s blog
Here is some good reading to familiarize you with the PLOT & THE PLOY to demolish education in America , and with it the road to income equality and our democracy.
FORMER Assistant SECRETARY OF STATE’, DIANE RAVITCH wrote:
How Not to Fix Our Public Schools
Reign of Error: The Hoax of the Privatization Movement and the Danger to America’s Public Schools.
The Trump Devos Demolition of American Education
*Detroit: The Broken Promise of School Privatization
If this happens, well, let the good times roll. . .
. . . for the bastards that will make a killing off the tax monies while not providing an adequate education for all.
“for the bastards that will make a killing off the tax monies while not providing an adequate education for all.” That’s simple statement is the crux of the most alarming concern of Reform for all of us.
It’s all part of the plan. From Max Blumenthal’s “Republican Gomorrah”:
According to Frederick Clarkson, a pioneering researcher of the Christian Right, “Reconstructionism seeks to replace democracy with a theocratic elite that would govern by imposing their interpretation of ‘Biblical law.’ Recontructionism would eliminate not only democracy but many of its manifestations, such as labor unions, civil rights laws, and public schools. Women would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed.”
Yes, indeed it is and the xtian evangelical fundies have been workiing their plan to a “T” and making sure that it doesn’t appear to be what they want. Deception magnified in the name of their lord.
“All warfare is deception” – Sun-Tzu
Charles,
You keep quoting Sun Trump that “all warfare is deception,” to justify the lies that public officials tell.
Stop it. It is wrong to lie, as a person, a public official, a student or a teacher. The next time you quote this line, it will be deleted.
RE Charles. I delete his comments, after discovering that they come from some echo chamber in his mind. He is free to spout his very narrow perspective of reality, but it does not change anything, nor does he open up channels for discussion at a blog like this, where truth is the bedrock..
Susan,
I don’t know why I post his comments. I delete some of his comments, because he often posts the same comment multiple times.
Should I block him?
No, Diane. Let him rant. Freedom of Expression IS the issue, not freedom of speech. Your site allows free speech, as long as it is not ad hominem or vicious.
People who wish to participate at a place such as your site, need to consider the level of discourse, and then to show some personal digression. After all, you HAVE made your feelings known, and so have some of the other voices who follow the PLOT & THE PLOYS in the war on public education; yet, this person continues AND CHOOSES TO antagonize/annoy by offering his cherry-picked ‘facts’ which on the surface seem thoughtful… unless one lives in a larger reality facts.
At Oped News, where I read and write ( and whereat he publisher’s stated mission is OBSERVABLE REALTIY I.E .TRUTH) there are many political ‘creatures’ (for a better word) who try to derail important conversations.
Many are very, bright, too, and a few are sincere. Some actually believe that their ‘take-away’ on politics is valuable and that it stimulates conversation… and in a way it does, as those who actually live in a factual universe respond. That is when ‘freedom’ of speech comes into play, and the publisher is careful not to squelch it.
Many, eventually betray their personal’NEED’ for ‘attention, or NEED to PREVAIL (as the ‘smartest person in the room) with their ‘worldview’, by endlessly repeating their opinions, and trying to back up their fallacious reasoning with ‘alternative facts.’ Luckily, we do not have to endure such people vis-a-vis, and can bypass the static they add to important conversations.
When that does not work, a few attack the writers, but as OEN is NOT a blog, but a news source , ad hominem attacks are flagged, and then if the behavior continues then their commentary IS Blocked.
Everyone who comments here has a right to demonstrate that they live in a bubble.
Susan,
I moderate some who post. This is a private blog, not a public square.
If people want to attack me or my readers or the public schools or teachers, there are other blogs that will welcome them.
You have a good point there. This place is one that I value, as you know, because of the high level discourse that you promote and oversee. I agree completely with your view, but was… cautious… in answering such a direct question.
I know that you will always make the bet choice. That is why I read here… IT IS A MATTER OF TRUST in the integrity of the site. I trust you implicitly.
But we’re not talking warfare we’re talking supposed business and governing principles.
I lived through Vietnam and Watergate. Politicians lie. This is the world we live in. People who are opposed to the government-run publicly-operated school monopoly, are using every possible device to achieve their goals.
Public school supporters, need to get a dose of “realpolitik”, and see what is going on.
You mean we need to lie too, like those you admire?
No.
I will leave the lies to you.
I thought he was quoting Johnny Cash (The Boy named Tsu)
And he said, “Sun, this world is rough
And if a man’s gonna make it, he’s gotta be tough
And I know I wouldn’t be there to help ya along
So I give ya that name and I said goodbye
I knew you’d have to get tough or die
And it’s the name that helped to make you strong”
Yeah he said, “Now you just fought one hell of a fight
And I know you hate me, and you got the right
To kill me now, and I wouldn’t blame you if you do
But ya ought to thank me, before I die
For the gravel in ya guts and the spit in ya eye
‘Cause I’m the Sun-of-a-bitch that named you “Tsu”
Yeah what could I do, what could I do
I got all choked up and I threw down my gun
Called him my Pa, and he called me his Sun
And I come away with a different point of view
And I think about him, now and then
Every time I try and every time I win
And if I ever have a Sun, I think I’m gonna name him
Bill or George! Anything but Tsu! I still hate that name! Yeah
Boy named Tsu
Boy named Tzu
DAM spell correct
Q You mean we need to lie too, like those you admire?
No.
I will leave the lies to you.
END Q
I am saying no such thing. What I am trying to state, is that politicians don’t always tell the truth. It is naïve to assume that politicians will always tell the truth.
School choice proponents don’t come out at first, and say “We are going to eviscerate the public schools in your state”. They say: “We want to give choices to learning-disabled children, or children in military families, or native American children, or (fill in the blank) children. That is how the camel gets its nose in the tent.
I do not admire politicians who lie. But they do.
Proponents of public schools, need to recognize the strategy and tactics of their opponents. They do not necessarily need to emulate these tactics.
You have repeatedly admired liars and lying.
I will believe nothing you write.
You are a daily purveyor of fake news
So CALVANISTIC! We deserve to be rich and have everything, because our “invisible” friend says we are better. According to Calvanist beliefs, the poor deserve to be poor and the rich deserve to be rich, because this is their “invisible” friend’s wish.
How convenient.
“BIFF”
Best invisible
Friend forever
BIFF is risible
Yet, He’s clever
The issue of public funding for religious schools was on the ballot in 2012, and voters rejected it 55-45.
2012 was a long time ago. I think the outcome could be different now, given the money flowing into support for “religious freedom,” and with efforts to capture emerging majority groups by the Koch brothers, DeVos, Waltons, and rest ( especially Latina/o voters. Add the proliferation of “public private partnerships” that help to capture the public sphere and Florida looks like it could succeed with this effort. The Supremes may help this absurdity along.
They need a supermajority in Florida Congress, don’t they? How many votes can they buy, for crying out loud?
The FL House and FL Senate are governed by Republicans. Many of whom are anti public schools (aka, “government schools” to them.) Last week we lost a Sen Senator to a scandal —
He was a strong voice for public ed. I believe the FL Senate now has only 15 Dems- 25 GOP. We need 5 crossover votes.
So, will these schools have to get rid of their admissions offices and take in every interested student regardless of space, behavioral history, and academic performance/potential?
No. Florida private schools are largely unaccountable to the public. They have no oversight.
Previous legislation (over the past decade) siphoned $3 Billion from FL’s education budget and directed it to FL Vouchers. I guess that’s not enough!
BTW, that is $3 Billion PER YEAR that’s siphoned from FL public schools and redirected to voucher schools.
Not all private universities accept all applicants. Private K-12 schools need not accept all applicants. With school choice, there will be the appearance of “boutique” schools. Example: school for the arts, military schools, schools for the handicapped, schools for the learning diaabled, schools for the gifted/talented,etc.
“supply creates its own demand” – Jean-Baptiste Say, Economist
You lie. You advocate lying.
I will never believe you nor should anyone else.
We’ve been over this, Chuck, do try to keep up. We already have “boutique” schools such as military schools and schools for the arts and schools for the so-called “gifted and talented”, and we have had them for a very long time, all under the umbrella of the public system.
And, as I asked the first time I pointed this out to you, why do you think having separate schools for the handicapped is a good thing?
Of course, there are SOME specialty schools operated by SOME states. (Example, the Illinois Math and Science Academy). But there are very few residential preparatory schools for gifted/talented, that are run by governments.
There are a total of thirty-one (31) military preparatory schools in the USA, that are government-operated. see https://militaryschoolusa.com/all-states/public-school
What I am trying to emphasize, is that with school choice(vouchers,ESA,etc) families would then be able to select appropriate NON-PUBLIC specialty education for their children.
(I am a qualified sign-language interpreter)
I am certainly no expert on handicapped education. Nevertheless, not all handicapped/learning-disabled children should be educated in standard public schools.
Deaf children should be educated in a school which has instructors, who are proficient in sign language. Blind children, need instruction in Braille,etc.
Some (not all) handicapped children should be educated in a residential setting. The Kentucky School for the Deaf, is one such institution.
Some (not all) learning-disabled students can receive appropriate education in a more mainstream environment.
And when it comes to the gifted/talented, again, the educational experience should be tailored to the individual child.
see
https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/gifted-children-in-public-schools
Not all publicly-operated schools have the staff or facilities to assist gifted/talented children needed to enable these children to meet their fullest potential.
Why not give parents of gifted/talented children the option to obtain appropriate education from non-public sources?
From the University of Michigan site on Machiavelli:
Q Niccolo Machiavelli is known for being one of the most infamous political theorists of all time. Why? Machiavelli openly suggested that deception is necessary to carry out one�s political agenda. This was a threat to the society in which he lived; it is still seen as threat to our society. Man is so resistant to the idea of deception, but he uses it to further his agenda. This is political because it ties into all of the institutions that we allow to shape our culture and our lives. As people who belong to a certain social order, we are governed by these. Deception is the ultimate deviant tool, yet what is so interesting is that man time and time again allows himself to be fooled… END Q
Charles,
We do not live in Machiavelli’s era. We know that politicians twist the truth for their benefit but they should not be praised for lying.
You like lying. I don’t.
Leave it alone.
Have you ever heard the axiom, “when you are in a hole, stop digging”?
Here is an article about Virginia’s attempt to establish a state-operated residential preparatory academy for gifted/talented students. In 1990! see
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1990/06/04/va-panel-backs-tuition-free-boarding-high-school-for-gifted-students/3e1c04f8-c00f-4dc9-ab48-b7170d62bedf/?utm_term=.c2ff97e0ccee
The proposal never got off the ground. A similar proposal was put forth by the governor of Maryland in 1988. The Maryland proposal never got off the ground.
I assert, and I continue to assert, that the publicly-operated school systems in this nation, are not allocating appropriate resources to properly enable gifted/talented children to reach their fullest potential.
There are currently only nine (9) residential preparatory academies for the gifted/talented in the entire USA (publicly-operated). see
https://celebratinghighpotential.com/residentialacademiesforgiftedadolescents/
Can we not agree, that the state governments in this nation, are NOT doing an adequate job in providing appropriate educational opportunities for our brightest children? Why not give families of gifted children, the opportunity to obtain appropriate education, outside of the public sector? Especially since the public sector is such a dismal failure in this area? see
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-america-turned-against-smart-kids/
Charles,
It is extremely expensive to run a residential school. It is not something that should be done by government except for very unusual situations. My guess is that the actual cost would be at least $50,000 a year. Do you think that a parent with a $5,000 voucher would be able to use it at an institution that costs $50,000? Why should taxpayers foot the bill for such expensive boarding schools?
Innit kind of funny to link to an article in the American Conservative worrying about smart kids? Aren’t conservatives the ones who want to get rid of science and history and other inconvenient subjects?
Also, Charles, isn’t it kind of anti-conservative to want the government to take smart kids out of their homes and isolate them in a residential school for education? Doesn’t that smack of, well, indoctrination?
HUH? What? I can’t follow your ILLOGICAL words.
No one ever said, that establishing a residential preparatory school is cheap.
Already nine states are operating these academies. Even Mississippi, which is hardly a wealthy state, has such a school.
Of course, it costs more to properly educate a gifted student.
What do you define as “unusual”? Many states operated residential schools for handicapped/learning-disabled. Are these children unusual?
I assert that pulling gifted children out of standard schools, and relocating them to a residence school, is cost-effective. It is more economical to bring a state’s gifted children to one or more central locations, than to operate a gifted program in all of the state’s schools. This is an economy of scale.
Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science – Columbus, Mississippi – “MSMS is the state of Mississippi’s only public, residential high school specifically designed to meet the needs of the Magnolia State’s most academically gifted students. Each year, MSMS graduates are offered millions of dollars in scholarships.”
Do you not see, that a residence school, can address to “whole student”? Such a school can offer more than just academics. The students can be given instructions in how to obtain financial assistance for their university education. They can be given additional life-skills training, and social skills training. They can be guided to appropriate non-academic pursuits, like summer internships.
And there are other benefits to states establishing such schools. Industries will be more likely to locate in states, which have demonstrated a commitment to providing excellence in education.
We have discussed the financial differential before. Of course a voucher for $5k will not pay for an education which costs $50k. But vouchers can be adjusted on a sliding scale.
As far as why taxpayers should foot the bill for the additional costs of educating gifted kids, the answer is obvious.
Our society already spends additional resources to educate special needs children. No one objects to additional resources being applied to physically handicapped or retarded, or learning-disabled children, in fact it is required to do so.
Our society should be committed to allocating appropriate resources to ensure that all of our children are receiving the educational services they need. It is cost-effective to spend more on gifted/talented students, who will be the nobel-prize winners of tomorrow. Our society will be enriched, when we commit to our finest youth.
Gifted children should mingle with all kinds of children. They should not be segregated in residential schools. There are many kinds of giftedness, not Judy the kinds that are found on standardized tests. Do you want residential schools for athletic stars? Gifted musicians? What else?
Q Aren’t conservatives the ones who want to get rid of science and history and other inconvenient subjects? END Q
Of course not. I am a political conservative, and an engineer. Who ever said that conservatives want to get rid of science and history? I have advocated for increased science (all STEM), and education in history for many years.
Of course, Trump is trying to silence scientists. Government officials are no longer allowed to discuss climate change.
Q isn’t it kind of anti-conservative to want the government to take smart kids out of their homes and isolate them in a residential school for education? Doesn’t that smack of, well, indoctrination? END Q
Of course not! There is nothing “anti-conservative” about advocating for providing a residence preparatory education for gifted/talented children. The government does not “take out” children from their homes and enroll them into the Illinois math and science academy. Admittance is by competitive examination, and not all applicants are permitted to enroll. Competition to get into such schools is tough, and no one is compelled to attend. And it has nothing to do with “indoctrination”.
Once you open that door, there will be residential schools for religious groups.
Q Gifted children should mingle with all kinds of children. They should not be segregated in residential schools. There are many kinds of giftedness, not Judy the kinds that are found on standardized tests. Do you want residential schools for athletic stars? Gifted musicians? What else? END Q
Why do you think that gifted children should “mingle” with all types of children? Do you have any special training in this area? Gifted children can and do “mingle” with children. They need not necessarily do so in an academic setting. Putting gifted/talented children in classrooms with learning-disabled children will not serve either group. The gifted kids will be bored, and the learning-disabled will have instructions that are over their ability to grasp.
Residential schools like the Illinois Math and Science academy, are terrific for (most) gifted children. With the specialized instruction, the bright kids can be given the instruction and learning experiences that will enable them to achieve fullest potential.
And I do advocate for residential “specialty” schools, like you describe. Texas has a residential academy for students who have special talents in the humanities. There are 31 existing residential military prep schools, operated by the several states. I think the idea of a residential prep school for children who have athletic talent, is a terrific idea. (The East Germans, used to identify children with athletic skills, and relocate them to special schools. The children received athletic coaching, and academic instruction. The East Germans won a lot of Gold Medals, with these children. )
Ah, I see, you envy East Germany, where children were owned by the state.
I have two gifted children, and I would never have dreamed of putting them in a state boarding school. What a dreadful idea.you remind us that you have no children.
Hey, by the way, when is Ref Rodriguez going to resign? He needs to for everyone’s sake.
Ask every day
The Sunshine Theorem:
America = God + guns + plutocrats + propaganda > or = to Florida
Even if this were to become law in Florida, any private school worth it’s salt will tell the state to keep it’s money. No government money keeps school programs and curriculum under parent control.
Florida could establish ESA’s where the parents have direct control of the educational spending for their children. This creates a “wall of separation”, and then the government is not concerned.
Florida has tax credit vouchers. They don’t need your advice.
It’s the ideology- if your “movement” is exclusively about “choice” all you do is promote charters and vouchers.
They don’t have anything else so they don’t DO anything else.
Florida can disband this board completely once public schools are eradicated- there’s no reason for them to come to work. A competent bookkeeper can replace people who just hand out vouchers and he or she would probably do a better job on the accounting end.
I wonder if this is politically timed to push back against the Florida newspaper expose of Florida’s completely unregulated voucher program.
That was bad for ed reform. None of them bothered to mention that the schools weren’t regulated at all- even regarding basic safety, like fire codes. Bet you 50 dollars none of the voucher parents knew THAT.
You all are familiar with Ohio’s ECOT? The giant failing online school ed reformers have been promoting and funding for 15 years?
Meet Indiana’s version:
“One of Indiana’s largest high schools ended this past school year with almost 5,000 students, but no desks and no classrooms. The school also had very few graduates — 61 out of more than 900 seniors graduated last year.
What Indiana Virtual School did have: Tens of millions in state dollars due to come its way over the next two years, and a founder whose for-profit company charged millions of dollars in management fees and rent to the school.
Thomas Stoughton founded the school in 2011, taking advantage of a new law allowing Indiana charter schools to serve students exclusively over the internet, rather than in brick-and-mortar buildings.
In recent years, students have signed up in droves, responding to social media advertising campaigns. The school they end up attending differs widely from other online charter schools emerging across the country, with far fewer teachers per student — 1 for every 222 students last school year, according to state data — and fewer students taking and passing state exams.”
State education officials are forbidden BY LAW from intervening because ed reformers lobbied and bought lawmakers to avoid regulation. This giant school isn’t regulated AT ALL.
It’s a money machine. And ed reform wants to jam this cheap online model into every lower income public school. 1 teacher for more than 200 students. Profitable!
The teachers will only speak on the record if the paper won;t use their name- they fear “retribution” from their employer.
https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/in/2017/10/31/as-students-signed-up-online-school-hired-barely-any-teachers-but-founders-company-charged-it-millions/
“Reiniventing schools” is the book ed reformers are all promoting this year- gushing reviews, front page placement on their websites, national tours…
The book’s author points to Indiana as a model for national ed reform. However. In the book promotion product tour he insists this privatized model is “non-profit”
That’s not true in Indiana. Indiana has loads of for-profit charters.
He’s misleading people, conducting a national tour doing it and all of the leading lights in ed reform are clapping along.
Ed reformers are concerned that Bill Gates wants to HELP public schools too much.
“But all of this assumes that what our schools most need is help. Better tools, better data, more support. What if help is necessary but not sufficient? What if what many of our schools really need is a swift kick in the ass?
What if lots of school board members and superintendents and central office staff and principals and teachers don’t really want to change? I mean, sure, they want to improve as much as the next guy or gal, but not if it means dealing with conflict, telling someone they are bad at their job, canceling a textbook contract, or heaven forbid denying a teacher tenure. What if the reason that teacher evaluation reform was so disappointing—with 98 percent of teachers still rated effective—was because we misdiagnosed the problem? It isn’t a technocratic issue—principals not having the training or tools to provide good feedback to teachers. It’s a political problem—principals don’t want to give negative feedback to teachers they have to live with because they can’t get rid of them.”
It must be terrifying that Gates is veering away from The Doctrine- “punish public schools, lavish rewards, praise and funding on charters and private schools”.
Heresy! How will all these think tank adults continue to collect a paycheck if ed reform helps public schools? Their whole ideology depends on giving public schools ” a swift kick in the ass” – the grants could dry up!
Reply to Charles above part 1 (my replies keep getting swept off into the ethernet):
“But there are very few residential preparatory schools for gifted/talented, that are run by governments.”
Yes, and there will be very few few residential preparatory schools for gifted/talented run by private entities either, at least that anyone besides the rich can access, even with a voucher. A $5,000 voucher doesn’t go very far against $40,000+ tuition.
There are currently nine(9) such prep schools currently in operation. In the entire USA (run by governments).
I assert that our nation needs to spend more on our brightest children. We spend more on handicapped/learning-disabled. It is an excellent investment, to provide additional resources to our brightest youth.
And not all parents of gifted children are wealthy, of course. The amount of the financial support provided to the families of gifted children, should be set up on a sliding scale.
How can you predict that with additional school choice, and providing financial support to families, that more private operators will not appear to meet the demand?
If government offers to pay $50,000 per child for a residential school, there may be many takers but is that a wise use of money when so many schools are ill-funded? Like Utah? Arizona? Texas? Why not reduce class size for many children rather than squander money on boarding schools, where children may be subject to bullying and sexual abuse by adults?
First, Charles, what is your interest in residential schools? Why do you want so-called “gifted” kids to be taken out of their families and isolated in a residential school away from peers, friends and family? And more specifically, why would you, as a conservative, want these schools to be run by the big, bad gubmint?
Secondly, I’m unaware of any voucher program that gives more than $5,000 per voucher. As Diane is trying to get you to respond, how is $5,000 going to help any but the already-very-rich families to afford education that is likely to top $50,000? So why would more operators “appear to meet the demand” if very, very few people can afford it anyway? That would be like giving people a voucher for $5 for fine dining and expecting more restaurants like Masa to open up.
If you cannot see the benefits of providing additional resources to gifted/talented children, then there is no point trying to enlighten you. The benefits are self-evident.
Of course, our nation has only a limited amount of money that we can spend on education. That is why we have a political process, to make decisions for the common good, and decide where we shall spend our education dollars. No one objects to providing additional resources to physically handicapped, or learning disabled children. But, when you suggest spending additional funds on children, at the other end of the “bell curve”, they call you an “elitist”.
Of course, class size can be reduced, with the hiring of additional teachers. And this costs money. Our society has to decide whether to spend on hiring more teachers for the public schools, or making a commitment to support our brightest children.
And how can you predict that children who attend a residence preparatory academy will be automatically subject to bullying/sexual abuse?
If you cared about the Common good, you would stop pushing school choice, which benefits the few at the expense of the many.
Texas operates a residence school for students who have excellence in the humanities.
Q Texas Academy of Leadership in the Humanities – Beaumont, Texas – “The Texas Academy of Leadership in the Humanities is a residential honors program for gifted and talented Texas high school-aged students who seek to develop their full potential as citizens and who show special interest and aptitude for study in the Humanities. TALH objectives are to provide an enriched college academic environment for gifted and talented high school – aged students, and to provide opportunities for leadership development through volunteerism, organizational participation, tutoring, and other forms of campus and community service.” END Q
You are a Texan. Do you advocate closing this school, and using the saved money for other educational purposes, like reducing class size?
Yes, I do
Either they should be equally available to all or each child should get the same resources, eg, $50,000 per child.
Why should children who are already more advantaged get more money than the child with greater needs?
You have probably figured out by now, that I was identified as exceptional, when I was 9 years old. I can state from experience, that not all public schools have the resources or staff to properly meet the needs of gifted/talented students.
Some (NOT ALL) gifted/talented students have psychological problems and social-adjustment problems, which not all public schools are equipped to address.
Smart kids are teased, and called names “geek” and “nerd”. Bright kids have difficulty fitting in, and socializing with other children.
Our society has not done an adequate job, in meeting special needs of gifted/talented children.
I know from experience.
Why didn’t you want to live at home? Did you really want to be sent to a boarding school with many kids far smarter than you? Poor Charles.
Q Either they should be equally available to all or each child should get the same resources, eg, $50,000 per child.
Why should children who are already more advantaged get more money than the child with greater needs? END Q
I am sorry that feel it is necessary to close this Texas school. It is obviously providing needed educational services to its students. It is a state-run enterprise, so there is no private, or profit-making motive behind its operation. Since it is a public school, and you cherish public schools, there is no reason why you would object to it.
The citizens of Texas (through their legislature) authorized its creation and funding. Do you claim to know more, than the legislature?
Since it is a public enterprise, application for admission should be open to all of the schoolchildren in Texas.
Since there is no income requirement for admission, it is safe to assume, that children from any economic level would be welcome to apply. Why would you believe that students at this public school, are more “advantaged” than any other Texas schoolchild?
I claim to know more than the legislature of Texas. I claim to know more about education than most state legislatures. If they were informed about education, they would stop creating Failing voucher programs, state Takeovers, and abusive and stupid testing.
Q Why didn’t you want to live at home? Did you really want to be sent to a boarding school with many kids far smarter than you? END Q
You are making some incorrect assumptions. First, when I was identified as gifted, there was never any question of my being sent to a residence/boarding school. I had no desire to be sent to one, and it was not economically possible in any case. The possibility of boarding school, never came up.
Charles, so sorry you could not go to a boarding school for the
Gifted. Why do you want to segregate children with high test scores and separate them from their families? Why are you obsessed with boarding schools for the gifted? Are you projecting? Did you want to get away from home and there was no place to go?
First, Charles, what is your interest in residential schools? For some children, a residence preparatory school will provide them with the learning experiences, that can assist them in meeting their full potential. This applies to handicapped/learning-disabled, and other types of children. I learned sign language, from an interpreter at the Kentucky school for the Deaf. I saw the excellent level of instruction provided to the students.
Why do you want so-called “gifted” kids to be taken out of their families and isolated in a residential school away from peers, friends and family? For some exceptional children, having them attend a residential school is the best way to go. Already, there are nine(9) such (publicly-operated) schools operating. More are certain to follow. There are residential military schools, and residential schools for the arts/humanities. Some gifted/talented children can be properly educated in non-residential schools, with “honors” programs.
And more specifically, why would you, as a conservative, want these schools to be run by the big, bad gubmint?
-State governments run all types of schools. Many people who are opposed to school choice/vouchers want the government to run the schools. Fine. Why not give parents/children, the choice to select different types of schools, including residential schools, that best meet the needs of their children. Instead of placing all children, in the public school, closest to their residence, why not give parents/children more choices, within the government-operated school system? I assert, that if families had real choices in the public systems, the demand for vouchers, to bail out of the public systems, would vanish.
Secondly, I’m unaware of any voucher program that gives more than $5,000 per voucher. -The amount of voucher/ESA varies from state to state. You can see the various amounts at
http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/voucher-law-comparison.aspx
As Diane is trying to get you to respond, how is $5,000 going to help any but the already-very-rich families to afford education that is likely to top $50,000?
-I have explained many many times, that a voucher worth $5k will not pay the tuition costs at a school which charges $50k. Stipulated. -But a voucher worth $5k will pay for a school which charges $5k. If a school charges $7k, then maybe families can come up with the additional $2k on their own. Some non-public schools, may choose to charge tuition on a sliding scale, and offer partial scholarships to some families. Some families may be able to get some tuition assistance from a NGO, in the form of a scholarship. Some families, may be able to accept the $5k voucher, and then begin home-schooling their children.
So why would more operators “appear to meet the demand” if very, very few people can afford it anyway? – Once school choice is implemented, there will a demand for some families to withdraw their children from public schools. Non-public schools will come in, to provide alternate education to these families.
That would be like giving people a voucher for $5 for fine dining and expecting more restaurants like Masa to open up.
-Disagree. When states offer school choice, alternate schools, will begin to open up, and accept the vouchers.
Charles,
I am too bored to answer.
Yes…that is the way to go…getting back to real data and important issues.
Part 2:
As far as blind and deaf education, my understanding is that most blind and deaf kids are now mainstreamed in regular schools now, often with an aide, but not necessarily. With the adaptive technology now available, there is very little need to segregate blind and deaf kids into their own schools.
Not all physically handicapped children are learning-disabled. (Helen Keller graduated with honors).
Of course, some physically handicapped children can be mainstreamed, but not all. And learning-disabled, ADHD, and other types of children with disabilities, need to have the learning experience that is appropriate. Children with Down’s or other forms of mental retardation, should be provided with the instruction that is appropriate for them.
Children with disabilities have federal rights and protections in public schools.
They abandon those rights when they go to private/voucher schools.
Yes, Diane, and one of those rights is to be educated in the least restrictive setting. For the vast, vast majority of kids with disabilities (the preferred term, incidentally, Charles), that means educating them in mainstream schools alongside their peers. Both the kids with disabilities and the supposedly “typical” kids benefit from this arrangement.
The Kentucky School for the Deaf (and other such schools for the physically handicapped) is a state-run institution. Students who attend such schools, of course have the same rights as in any other state-run school.
As far as children attending non-public schools for disabled children, the government needs to enact legislation, extending similar rights to children in such institutions. That is only fair.
Sorry. If you leave public schools, you abandon federal rights.
I agree, that if a child departs from a public school, and relocates to a non-public school, then the rights afforded under the current federal law are forfeited.
This is a travesty, and should be addressed.
Why not enact legislation, which would extend federal rights protection to all children, including children in non-public schools. This is only fair.
Charles, if you choose to drive on a private dirt road, you lose the protection of traveling on a public highway. Do you want a public nanny to blow your nose? Your desire to expand government into the private sector is alarming.
It appears that a big push of Choice and Reform is to separate students of disabilities. The push for Choice seemed to co-incide with the push for inclusion in regular education. They want to return to pre 1975 before PL 94 142 where parents won the righst for their disabled children to be educated. Reform and Choice is about separating regular ed students and students with disabilities. Charles your comments affirm my beliefs. I taught in a public school where inclusion worked for all students regular education and special education students.
I can’t seem to post part 3 at all. It’s a response to Chuck’s hand-wringing that the big, bad gubmint isn’t doing enough to provide individual education to the “gifted and talented” (a/k/a “the best and the brightest”). Apparently Chuck doesn’t seem to realize that all humans are gifted, so he’s perfectly fine with standardizing all the lessers that don’t excel academically and therefore, in his view, are not “gifted and talented”. In case anyone needed further confirmation of what an elitist Chuck is.
Here revealing the view attached to too many school “reformers” in our modern age: reach out ONLY to those who fit into the right descriptive box.
I find your comments on this topic to be beneath contempt.
Publicly-operated schools do not meet the needs of gifted/talented children. Our society does not allocate adequate resources, to meet their needs. Fact.
I.Q. tests, do not reveal that all humans are gifted. Quite the opposite, intelligence is distributed on the “bell curve”.
It is not “elitism”, to advocate for all children, to receive the educational experience that they deserve.
And this goes for gifted, average, and learning-disabled.
IQ tests were discredited in the 1920s and shown to be a measure of educational opportunity and culture, not innate intelligence. Did you know that on IQ Tests at that time, northern blacks had higher scores than Appalachian whites?
You say;”Publicly-operated schools do not meet the needs of gifted/talented children. Our society does not allocate adequate resources, to meet their needs. Fact.
Real fact: Our public schools, in many of the 15,880 schools systems which you know so much about, do meet the needs of many of our most gifted, even though funds are evaporating as folks, such as you– push charters and other private venues.
My sons, who attended local public schools were gifted as ere so many of the kids whom I met in this system and were accepted to Cornell, and WashU. One is a cardiologist and on his CEO of an internet security company.
Hardly rejected by society !
OUR SOCIETY CARES! It is the corporate sycophants that pay for elections of Congresspeople who wage a war on public education that do not care.
IF schools were funded and not robbed, then they could meet all the needs of gifted kids.
The austerity measures of our corrupt CONGRESS, who have their own ‘alternative facts’ about our budget, and our deficit, have assured that states and cities end up on austerity budgets, and so the first thing that goes is the school funding, followed by health care, and housing and anything that the people in our SOCIETY NEED!.
Throw the bums out, and return the money to our INSTITUTION OF PUBLIC EDucation, SO THAT ALL CHILDREN, gifted or not, get a chance for income equality.
Go support charters and vouchers at a blog which is an echo chamber for your alternative reality.
“I find your comments on this topic to be beneath contempt.”
Well, then we have something in common. Your elitist ideas about IQ tests says a lot about you. Google IQ tests and eugenics sometime. I suppose you don’t care about this country’s dehumanization of those deemed “lesser” based on such flawed tests.
“It is not “elitism”, to advocate for all children, to receive the educational experience that they deserve.”
So just what kind of education do “non-gifted” (sic) children deserve? Underfunded, no excuses, drill and kill test prep?
Talk about beneath contempt, Charles.
Our Teacher’s Union is selling out Miami – I wish there were an investigation – 21 yr teachers are only 1/2 way up the salary scale with less than $54,000 a year plus 3% goes back to the state- a 15 year teacher only makes a few thousand more than a beginning teacher, even Professional leave has been dissolved. It is disgusting!!! Seriously someone needs to investigate the Union i
Oh dear Maria… the PLOY in the PLOT to end public education is to REMOVE THE VOICE OF THE REAL PROFESSIONAL.
Just Miami?
My dear, they began in the biggest system of the 15,880.NYC. The unions petit happen to NYC http://gemnyc.org/2012/05/20/the-inconvenient-truth-behind-waiting-for-superman-now-online/
IN 1999 THIS http://www.perdaily.com/2011/01/lausd-et-al-a-national-scandal-of-enormous-proportions-by-susan-lee-schwartz-part-1.html
happened to me, when I was a celebrated educator, the NYC cohort for the Pew research on Teaching Standards for Learning, and the NYS Educator of Excellence. http://www.opednews.com/author/comments/author40790.html
The UNION LET IT HAPPEN ACROSS AMERICA.
Here is LA (the second largest school system in America.
http://www.perdaily.com/2015/01/were-you-terminated-or-forced-to-retire-from-lausd-based-on-fabricated-charges.html
Lenny Isenberg, created Perdaily.com, to chronicle the destruction of LAUSD.Now, it has sunk into the abyss, taking with it thousands of teachers.A decade ago e wrote about the thens of thousands of teachers went packing on fabricated charges, while the union let it happen: Lenny pointed out the collusion of the union UTLA http://www.perdaily.com/2011/03/lausd-and-utla–connecting-the-dots-of-blattant-corruption.html
which supported the dismissal process (so much for all the ranters who claim unions protect those ‘bad teachers)!
Seventeen years later 200,000 experienced educated teachers are GONE!
Yes, Maria,YOU nailed it!… the unions are COMPLICIT…
http://www.perdaily.com/2014/07/former-ctc-attorney-kathleen-carroll-lays-out-unholy-alliance-between-union-and-public-education-pri.html
BUT it is too late,!
FAKE NEWS tells the people IT’S THOSE LAZY, BAD TEACHERS!
http://www.opednews.com/Quicklink/HAVE-REPORTERS-BECOME-POLI-in-Best_Web_OpEds-Media_Media-Bias_Media-Blackout_Media-
THE EDUCATIONAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX owns the media, and the legislators https://greatschoolwars.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/eic-oct_11.pdf
At least you can find the truth here, even if it is too late to stop the rampage and demolition in Florida, as they BAMBOOZLE THE PEOPLE http://www.opednews.com/articles/BAMBOOZLE-THEM-where-tea-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-110524-511.html
and offer MAGIC ELIXIRS with no evidence required!
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Magic-Elixir-No-Evidence-by-Susan-Lee-Schwartz-130312-433.html
I for one am glad that Diane posts and argues with Charles on this blog. Like my mother, I love a good argument.
Like Charles, I feel we do not do enough for the Gifted. Unlike Charles, I would not recommend boarding schools as a panecea for all that afflicts us. Here is why. Gifted students are generally perceived as gifted because they had a particular advantage in society. Either due to their environment or their hereditary, they excel at some of the tasks we use to identity this gifted status. Surrounding these people with others who are like them will lead them to think they live in a perfect world. My own daughter, labeled as gifted and well served by a great public school, has benefited perhaps even more by her association with the children she meets who did not grow up under a roof which can barely contain the books and vocabulary.
Charles is right, the students we teach deserve the best. Unfortunately, so many rural schools and inner city schools have to spread their tax dollars very thin to offer any services. This is primarily because voters in wealthier school districts vote for politicians who keep their state taxes down. Their local taxes make up the difference locally, starving the rest.
So channeling money into private schools will only exacerbate the problem. It will satisfy the needs of a few parents who might otherwise be vocal supporters of higher taxes on the wealthy.
We live in a very rich country. Why do we force some communities to do without services, knowing that we would never allow our own communities to forego those same services?
The federal Dept of Education spends 2 cents of every 100 dollars, on gifted/talented programs.
Our nation is not doing enough for the gifted/talented.
Charles, as you have often said, the federal contribution to education is only about 10%. The lion’s share of funding is state and local. Why do you expect the feds to pay for gifted education? In the past, the biggest fed contribution to gifted was Research. It was called the Eisenhower program. I think it was abolished.
Read the second sentence of my post. Our “nation” is a federal nation, comprised of the several states (and territories). When I say “nation”, I mean all governments, federal/state/local.
There is very little enthusiasm at the state/local level to increase spending on gifted/talented programs. Politicians who press for additional programs for gifted/talented are called “elitists”. The governors of Maryland and Virginia were tarred and feathered by the teacher’s unions, when they attempted to set up residential schools in their states.
I advocate for all governments, to increase spending and to provide additional resources to our nation’s gifted/talented children.
Two cents out of every hundred dollars, is a disgrace.
Charles,
As you often tell us, if state and local governments won’t pay for it, then there is no political support. Forget about it. I am deleting any future comments from you about this topic, which has been thoroughly discussed.
Q We live in a very rich country. Why do we force some communities to do without services, knowing that we would never allow our own communities to forego those same services? END Q
Simple- Our current system of financing public education through property taxes, enables wealthy districts to have excellent schools, and poor districts (rural and inner-city) to have crap. This is “educational apartheid”, and has been written about for many years. See the book “Savage Inequalities”.
We force poor areas to do without services, because we can get away with it.