Thanks to G.F. Brandenburg for bringing this post to my attention.
Ross Cohen writes in Quota that there are rather important differences between Washington and Jefferson on one hand and Robert E. Lee on the other. While it is true that all of them owned slaves, the similarities end there.
Donald Trump is saying Robert E. Lee and George Washington are the same. That’s just silly. Who is dumb enough to fall for that?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are historically notable for many reasons, most of them positive. Robert E. Lee is known for just one thing.
We could all write blocks of text about how silly this is, but who really has the patience for that?
Trump is known to prefer graphics in his memos and briefings so maybe we can use some simple Venn Diagrams to help explain it. Please excuse my crude graphics design…
What follows are some graphic designs that anyone–even a non-reader–can understand.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Let’s see. Washington, Jefferson at al were guilty of treason. They were revolutionaries. They were slave owners. They fought against the established government, and in some cases, their “neighbors.” They found a cause, and fought for it.
Seven of the Founding Fathers were slave owners. And yet, NO ONE demands the removal of THEIR statues etc. (Historians have accepted the following seven men as the key founding fathers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, John Jay, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin became and abolitionist and freed his slaves.)
Robert E. Lee made some of the same choices.
There are statues of Sherman – a man who practiced “scorched earth” tactics, which would be considered war crimes in today’s eyes. Still out there…
There seems to be an unbalanced approach here…
Lee did not commit war crimes. He fought the opposing military forces. Sherman fought civilians.
War is never “good.” Acts committed against civilians during war can never be excused, no matter which nation/side commits such. They are rightly considered war crimes, be it a William Calley or a William Sherman.
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No hay ayuda para este tipo de ignorancia.
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If the American Civil War were as simplistic as this author makes it out to be, there would have been no civil war at all. If historical characters were so easy to fit into our thoughts, there would be no need for history as a discipline.
We find ourselves arguing about symbols instead of men and their beliefs. We find ourselves stating historical opinions as undisputed facts. Historians are used to real argument, not simplistic suggestion. Leave that for the politicians.
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A country founded on theft of the land from its original inhabitants, their genocide, slavery and a deep seated racism. It took an incredibly bloody Civil War to end slavery. For this country, abolition of slavery was a big step forward. The states that seceded were really about slavery, perpetuating slavery and extending it into the territories. The CSA statues and symbols should be taken down and moved to museums or historical parks. After that, the country needs a national truth and reconciliation commission to deal with our original sins.
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Human history is full of atrocities. There are probably few groups of people that somewhere in their history have not subjugated and/or decimated some group that was not them. The more recent and the more personal the sins are/were, the heavier they should weigh on us.
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“Donald Trump is saying Robert E. Lee and George Washington are the same. That’s just silly. Who is dumb enough to fall for that?”
Does anyone think that Fake President Donald Trump came up with this idea on his own?
Who is dumb enough to fall for that? Donald Trump, the Kremlin’s Agent Orange.
Look at Donald Trump’s Twitter account to discover who he follows. He only follows 45.
The odds favor that Trump came up with this idiotic idea from one of them. After all, Trump is the idiot who went out on the Truman balcony yesterday to stare at the eclipse without any protection for his eyes while his wife and son wore eye protection and someone else had to warn Dumb-is-Dumber to put eye protection on. Did anyone notice drool on his chin as he stared at the eclipse?
Host of “Tucker Carlson Tonight”, weeknights at 8 PM ET on @FoxNews. Re-tweets are emphatic endorsements.
Jesse Watters
Co-Host of “The Five” & Host of “Watters’ World” on Fox News Channel
3.Roma Downey
President @LightWorkers / Exec Producer of The Bible, Answered Prayers, A. D., The Dovekeepers, Son of God, Woodlawn, Little Boy & Ben-Hur / Star of TBAA
Laura Ingraham
Mom, Editor-in-Chief of LifeZette. Host, The Laura Ingraham Show, 9 to Noon ET. Listen live, join Laura365 to listen 24/7. Fox News. http://lauraingraham.com
DRUDGE REPORT
The DRUDGE REPORT is a U.S. based news aggregation website run by Matt Drudge(@DRUDGE).
Sean Hannity
TV Host Fox News Channel 10 PM. Nationally Syndicated Radio Host 3-6 PM EST. http://Hannity.com Retweets, Follows NOT endorsements!
Fox Nation
Join the community that believes in the American dream.
Fox Nation
Join the community that believes in the American dream.
Ann Coulter – (the queen of right-wing hate)
Diamond and Silk®
President Donald J Trump’s Most Outspoken & Loyal Supporters. Vloggers, Public Figures & Speakers. Internet, Radio & TV Personality. #ChooChooBaby …
FOX & friends
America’s #1 cable morning news show
Eric Bolling
Co-Host The Fox News “Specialists” and “Cashinin”. 2 New York Times Bestsellers “The Swamp” and “Wake Up America” can be ordered at http://ericbolling.com .
Bill O’Reilly
No Spin News on http://BillOReilly.com . #1 in cable news for 15+ years. America’s bestselling historian. Loving father.
There’s more but this will give you an idea where DT gets his ideas. It is obvious that FOX news should have its own office in the White House as the thinker for the Liar-in-Chief.
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While I at no time excuse the tragedy of the War Between the States (1861-1865), I dispute that R.E. Lee is known for only one thing. Gen Lee graduated West Point without one single demerit. He later served as superintendent. He was a brilliant engineer, and designed the first railroad bridge across the Mississippi. He served brilliantly in the War with Mexico (1848).
Notwithstanding his service to the Confederacy, Lee opposed both secession and slavery.
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Well then, he had a very curious way of expressing his opposition to secession and slavery, didn’t he?
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I am not an historian, as has been pointed out several times. R.E. Lee was personally opposed to both secession and slavery. He would not “lift a sword” against Virginia, which he considered his “country”. You should see the Ken Burns show, and/or read the history by Shelby Foote. Lee also opposed monuments of the nature, which are now in contention.
see
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/
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As Michael Fiorillo said, if Lee opposed secession, why did he lead the Secessionist states?
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There were many Southerners, who supported the Union, and were opposed to the War. (ex: Andrew Johnson). There were Northerners who were in favor of secession, and supported the Confederacy. see
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-generals-who-fought-against-their-home-state-in-the-civil-war
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Lee did not “lead” the Confederacy. He never held public office. He refused to ” le\ift a sword” against Virginia, which he considered his “country”. You are an historian, haven’t you seen the Ken Burns documentary, nor read the history of the war by Shelby Foote?
I do not excuse Lee’s behavior, nor condone slavery nor any aspect of it.
Lee himself opposed monuments to Confederates. In fact, many of the monuments were not erected until decades after the Confederate surrender.
The Confederate monuments, which are causing so much consternation today, owe more to Jim Crow, than Gen Lee, for their existence.
I believe it was not until Gerald R. Ford, over 100 years after the surrender, that US Citizenship was restored to Gen. Lee. see
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-generals-who-fought-against-their-home-state-in-the-civil-war
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Charles,
The Civil War is called “the Civil War” in the North.
In the South, it is called either “The War Between the States” or, as I heard it said in South Carolina, “the War of Northern Aggression.”
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The war is called by several different names, in different parts of our nation. A tragedy by any name, is still a tragedy.
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I grew up in Louisiana. It was called “The Civil War.” Nothing about it was simple or straightforward. Much of the motivation was about economic power and control between the states, NOT the “freeing of slaves.” Everyone from the North wasn’t “Good” and everyone from the South wasn’t “Bad.” People are complex, not one-dimensional. To try to reduce that era (especially using today’s norms and filters) to one dimension oversimplifies everything and ignores the nuances of history.
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@CarolB I find myself in agreement. I am from Kentucky, and the war is called by several names. Kentucky sent more soldiers to the North than Michigan, and more soldiers to the Confederacy than Florida. Bowling Green was the confederate capital, and Frankfort was the Union(federal) capital. I have ancestors who went AWOL from both sides!
The causes of the war were many, and not exclusively slavery (or the extension of slavery into the territories).
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Not only about slavery but slavery was a central cause
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The Venn diagrams should be of use in teaching anyone who is falling for Trump. I was really put off by the title on the link to the diagrams. Trumps was supposed tohave the best education money could buy.
What does it say about the state of schools in liberal states when liberals deny President Trump’s accurate statement that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves?
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Christopher Knight argued recently in the LA Times that communities should move these statues into history museums, where they can be curated and placed in context. Curious what people think of this idea.
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I think that this is could work, but if the history museum exists to aggrandize the confederacy, no.
I do favor the move to get these staues out of environments where they are easily seen as if heroric and honoring some great legacy.
The Stone Mountain sculptures are a significant problem.
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A comment from an article re. Stone Mountain which speaks louder than the removal of ANY statue…
“Until you change the people’s hearts … taking down the monument I don’t think is going to make a big difference,” said regular climber Nikki Harris, catching her breath on a hot summer afternoon. Behind her was a commanding view of metro Atlanta’s skyline, clusters of high-rise buildings poking up from a slight haze.”
The speaker happens to be ‘African-American.’
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Interesting article about Thomas Jefferson from Smithsonian magazine:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/?amp=&preview=_page&page=1
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I totally agree that these statues should not be on public land, but there is plenty of room near the Museum of the South in Richmond, VA. and perhaps near some other museums as well.
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Here’s an insightful analysis on current sophistry, particularly of Don the Con’s arguments. He has a useful new category, “whataboutism”:https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/whataboutism-what-about-it/2017/08/17/4d05ed36-82b4-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html?utm_term=.ce115232ab16
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I am ashamed to think how easily we capitulate to badges and names,
to large societies and dead institutions. R.W. Emerson
The self is not something ready-made, but something in continous formation
through choice of action. John Dewey
All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers. Francois Fenelow
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It’s very easy to explain how Washington and Jefferson were different from Lee. A U.S. President should be able to draw that distinction, especially when so much is riding on the question, as is the case now. Naturally Trump failed that test. I will throw this out there, though: There is more to Trump’s slippery-slope argument than many or most of us will admit. I don’t think this is the point at which most of us will be forced to confront, rather than dismiss, that argument, but I think we’ll reach that point one day. For example, many people have already articulated coherent, non-trivial arguments about why Woodrow Wilson’s name should be scrubbed from Princeton’s campus, and President Wilson, unlike Lee, was not a traitor.
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