A reader posted a comment yesterday asking why I had a problem with religious schools receiving public funding. Aren’t there good religious schools. I pointed out that most of the religious schools that are funded by vouchers are not very good schools. The very good religious schools don’t have many seats available. The ones that do have seats available and need the money tend to be a certain type of Christian school that teaches creationism and uses textbooks that do not teach modern science, math, or history.
Then another comment arrived, this one from a man who is writing a book about education in Arizona.
I post this quote from a work in progress for the nice lady who wrote about Diane’s piece and asked whether there are good religious schools. Diane used a quote from me in the blog today.
Here are the Organizations already providing “scholarships” on the “tax credit” dime here in AZ. I am a proud Catholic School Graduate and I have grandchildren in Catholic Schools in New Hampshire.
Those choices were my parents and my children’s RELIGIOUS choice. They wanted their children indoctrinated into the Catholic Faith.
Catholic schools have their history in anti-Catholic sentiments going back to the KNOW NOTHING PARTY and anti-immigrant attitudes in the 1840s. There was a time when it was a “mortal sin” for Catholics to attend public school if a Catholic School was available..
We in AZ live in a state that allows a “Christian Scholarship” fund that doesn’t include any Catholic, or for that matter Mormon schools, that is a RED FLAG.
I ask the following.
How is it that the Senate president of the Arizona State Senate, can simultaneously be the executive director of a $17,064,168 organization, The Arizona Christian School Tuition Organization Inc., while having control over all of the bills that come up for voting in the Senate including those that benefit his organization?
o This while collecting a salary and other compensation of $145,705 per annum in 2014-2015 for directing the ACSTO.
Source IRS Form 990 FY 2013: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2014/860/931/2014-860931047-0b056c5d-9.pdf
o Again the question is asked, “Politically would this be considered “permissible” if the organization was dedicated to promoting Catholic Schools and run by the Senate President who happened to be the Bishop of the Diocese of Phoenix?
o Researching the Organization in question one finds a list of the “participating schools”. That list which is provided below is devoid of any Catholic or Mormon Schools. Do they not fit the organization’s definition of Christian Schools? Would having a Muslim or Hindu Tax Credit group be okay with the legislature? How about an ATHEIST School?
Bethany Christian School
Christian Academy of Prescott
Flagstaff Community Christian School
Joy Christian School
North Valley Christian Academy
Northwest Christian School
Paradise Valley Christian Prep
Scottsdale Christian Academy
Trinity Christian School (Prescott)
I am sure these are good programs but I have met some of their leadership and a lot of them ascribe to the philosophy that the world is 6000 years old.
• Catholic Education Arizona is an IRS 501(c) (3) nonprofit charitable organization and has never accepted gifts designated for individuals. Per state law, a school tuition organization cannot award, restrict or reserve scholarships solely on the basis of donor recommendation. A taxpayer may not claim a tax credit if the taxpayer agrees to swap donations with another taxpayer to benefit either taxpayer’s own dependent. This new law changes that.
o The rules for donating to a Catholic Educational Program speak volumes to the previous complaint regarding what is a Christian School. It required separate rules to “allow” the donations to go to Catholic Schools. The restrictions make it impossible for one to donate for their own child’s (or grandchildren’s) tuition.
This is a taxpayer funded way to provide the scholarships that Catholics used to provide in their donations to the church of their choice.
The leadership at this charity received compensation of $131,115 in 2013-2014. This was on revenue of $16,269,022.
Source: IRS FORM 990 See: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2014/860/937/2014-860937587-0b8e0571-9.pdf
“Freedom to choose” for religious purposes has always been an option in this country. Catholics chose to create Catholic Schools. Jewish parents chose schools based at their Synagogues. There are Hindu Schools and Muslim Schools. These faiths funded this choice with sacrifice and tuitions that were subsidized by their church, synagogue or mosque, not by diverting funds meant to support the public schools to their religion.
• Jewish Tuition Organization is another 501 C specifically to provide Scholarship or Grants to Attend Jewish Primary and Secondary Schools. http://www.jtophoenix.org/take-the-credit/
o The Executive Director at the Jewish Tuition Organization has a salary of $70.000 as of the 2013-2014 Fiscal Year. This is on Revenue of $2,922,316.
o Form 990 FY 2013 JTO: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2014/860/970/2014-860970081-0b26cdec-9.pdf
Diane Ravitch's blog 
A deliberate attempt to return to the Dark Ages of ignorance and possibly a revival of the Christian/Catholic inquisitions. Torture anyone? Burning women alleged to be witches at the stake anyone? Holding people under water until they die and if they die, they were possessed by the devil.
I think you had that backwards . Wasn’t if if the don’t die they are possessed by the devil . Then must be burnt at the stake.
I probably did get it backward. I’ve read that there was also a drowning test. If they survived the attempted drowning then the devil protected them and they’d be burned at the stake, but if they died from drowning, they were innocent.
There was no way to win once an alleged heretic and/or witch was accused.
They actually pulled them out of the water. The ones who floated were the guilty ones since the sacred water rejected them. Not that this doesn’t make it any less horrific!
The final sentence was supposed to read: Not that this makes it any less horrific!
There are Mormon private schools? Not ones sponsored by the Mormon Church, at any rate.
Why do you think there are no private (PreK-12) schools, sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) ?
There are four(4) such currently operating in Utah.
see
https://www.privateschoolreview.com/utah/latter-day-saints-religious-affiliation
There is at least one(1) privately operated high school operating on LDS themes in Utah:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/business-booming-at-utah-s-only-lds-based-private-high/article_1e18cfa2-6a9b-5427-bdef-905737742466.html
The voters of Utah overwhelmingly rejected vouchers in 2007.
The LDS church does NOT sponsor religious schools except in a few places in Polynesia. LDS-themed schools are NOT sponsored by the LDS Church.
I read the LDS Church News. Do you?
Exactly, Diane. Private schools are not particularly popular in Utah, partly because there are many large families here (six children or more is not surprising). The last numbers I saw were about 3% of students in Utah are privately schooled.
Charles, that website on private schools is REALLY bad. All three of the schools listed on that website are CHARTER schools. Just because the school is near an LDS temple doesn’t make it an LDS school. There are 18 LDS temples in Utah.
The website is confusing. The LDS church does not sponsor any schools, but there are schools with LDS “themes”. I do not read the church news. My mistake!
Apology accepted, Charles. But, be aware that most of us know our local communities FAR better than you do.
The Untied States separates Church and State. Why should any public funds go to a Church affiliated school? Unless someone changes the basis of our Country it should be clear–we are about ‘public education’ and if one chooses to attend private school they can at their own cost.
No religious school should get any tax breaks, vouchers or anything at taxpayer expense. Nothing, nada, zilch. You don’t want to go to public schools fine, go pay to go to your religious fanatic school on your own.
There is a case coming up, before the Supreme Court of the USA, which will determine exactly that. See
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/trinity-lutheran-church-of-columbia-inc-v-pauley/
The case involves whether the state of Missouri, can provide shredded tire chips at a playground at a religiously-operated school.
This is the most important religious freedom case to come before the court in many years. There are about 30 or so “Amicus Curiae” briefs that have been filed with the court. (These are “friends of the court” briefs, which indicate a high degree of interest in the case)
Oral arguments are scheduled for April 19.
Does the 14th amendment’s equal protection clause protect the rights of children to play in a playground with rubber chips on the surface, provided at taxpayer’s expense?
That’s a BIG leap that this case will be the equivalent of accepting vouchers. Tire chips for a playground are NOT the same as vouchers.
They already burn male and female witches at the stake. The people they burn are referred to as “teachers,” a practice that has impacted me on a personal level, depriving me of happiness and peace, acceptance and stability.
http://whowhatwhy.org/2017/04/07/what-is-the-endgame-of-the-resistance/
“The philosophy that the world is 6000 years old.”
I am not sure this should be called a philosophy. It is a statement of disbelief in science and disbelief in the evidence of human history dating thousands of centuries before that BC/BCE marker. I wonder if our new Supreme Court Justice who claims to be an Originalist has some views about the age of the world as exactly or approximately 6000.
I live not too far from the ARK replica, in scale. I suppose it could house a large variety of dinosaurs in addition to other critters that lived 6000 years ago. I think freedom from religion is important as freedom of religion. I do not want to pay a “religious” tax marketed as a voucher.
Diane, you already know what a pretentious, retentive stickler I am about language, so please forgive me. I would not use the word “philosophy” for the believers in a 6,000 year old world, however technically correct it may be. I, instead, would use something like: “an ideology based on willful ignorance and aversion to objective facts.”
I don’t understand why this discriminatory practice is not challenged in the courts. This is what “choice” produces, discrimination and exclusion.
Here is a site that lists all the court cases state-by-state dealing with workplace fairness
This page is for just Texas
https://www.workplacefairness.org/court-cases?state=TX
And here’s one from USA Today late last year
“Trump’s companies face open cases of sexual discrimination and fraud, unpaid bills and contract disputes. In any of the open cases, litigants would have the right to demand testimony from Trump or people close to him, some of whom could become senior White House aides.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/10/25/pending-lawsuits-donald-trump-presidency/92666382/
I have discussed this topic about 50 times. Why doesn’t everyone know, that the providing of vouchers to attend religiously-operated schools, has been settled constitutional law for over fifteen (15) years?
Wrong, Charles. Most states prohibit spending public money for religious schools.
What is permissible in higher education is not permissible in K-12.
The American public oppose paying for religious indoctrination.
Yes, Charles, you have discussed it 50 times. Please stop.
Charles,
You are trying to take charge of the blog with the same comments, posted repeatedly.
Please stop. Start your own blog. Enough is enough.
You admit that you have posted the same comments at least 50 times. Stop now.
Q Most states prohibit spending public money for religious schools.
What is permissible in higher education is not permissible in K-12.
The American public oppose paying for religious indoctrination. END Q
According to Wikipedia, 38 states have some form of Blaine amendment, prohibiting state tax money from going to sectarian schools.
The Supreme Court ruled that public money can go to vouchers for K-12, just like public money goes to BEOGs and GI Bill programs.
I agree, that a majority of Americans oppose paying for religious indoctrination. This is even set out in the 1st Amendment.
Is Arizona a state with a high number of the orthodox Catholics who are, for the most part, in favor of the extremist-right agenda on education? Also, has anyone done a “population study” to determine the number of Protestant religious schools compared to Catholic ones? I ask because my daughter taught at a Catholic school that was abruptly shut down by the archdiocese without a word of warning to the parents. Is that a trend, or were they just unlucky?
I grew up in a protestant church. I recall a visiting missionary that led a prayer asking us “to pray for the Jews and Catholics that they may some day see the light.” I almost fell off my chair. I think that was the beginning of my mental departure, which I did, completely at age twelve.
If any tax money is used to send a student to a religious school it should be challenged in court. I am Catholic and I know (as well as anyone) that the Catholic Church prohibits women from obtaining certain jobs in the Church simply because they are female. This is discrimination. Tax money used to send a child to a Catholic school is an acceptance that discrimination against women is okay. It is not okay. It runs counter to democracy.
The constitutionality of using tax dollars to provide for instruction at religiously-operated institutions of learning, has been settled for 15 (fifteen) years.
Your taxes pay for BEOG’s (Pell Grants), and GI Bill benefits, which are used to obtain education at religious institutions of higher learning.
Wrong. If the issue were settled, why is it being debated? Why no vouchers in Texas, Michigan, NY, etc.
Just because a couple of state courts have ruled doesn’t mean it’s settled. That would take a SCOTUS ruling, which hasn’t happened.
Well, to look on the bright side, the Protestant Christian Evangelicals and the Catholics have been playing footsie with each other for decades now trying to combine forces to “Christianize” education. Now maybe the Catholics will realize the Evangelicals are not their allies after all. (I’m still waiting for many Jews to realize the same thing.)
I’ve long said that the solution to the problem of religion in education is to allow it. Get representatives of all the religions and various sects thereof together and let them haggle out what’s going to be taught and how. Within an hour I guarantee there will be bloodshed and all those “good Christians” (and Muslims, Jews, etc.) will realize why it is that we don’t teach religion in the public schools.
The Evangelicals send more money to Israel than Jews. Evangelicals are big supporters of the West Bank settlements because they believe the second coming of Christ will occur on a hill in the west bank. The Evangelicals want a front row seat, and they do not want the area to be settled by Arabs.
Religious education is allowed. In fact, parents can withdraw their children from public schools, and send them an institution which provides religious education (at their own expense). See
Pierce, Governor of Oregon, et al. v. Society of the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary, 268 U.S. 510 (1925)
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1962/142
Religion is taught in public schools, as well. The Supreme Court ruled in School District of Abington Township, Pennsylvania v. Schempp (1963), that the Holy Bible, (and other religious texts) can be taught in public schools. I took a course in Bible literature in a Kentucky public high school.
I do not understand, why people cannot understand what the Supreme Court has ruled.
There is a difference in teaching about religion and religious indoctrination.
I wish more public schools taught comparative religions. Most Americans know very little about Islam, and it is the religion of 20% of the world’s population.
Stephen Prothero, a college professor has long advocated “religious literacy”. see
https://www.bu.edu/religion/people/faculty/bios/prothero/
He wrote about the subject, which was a best-seller, and was a TIME magazine cover story.
In our pluralistic society, we should all know the basics of our different religions.
“We must learn to live together as brothers, or we will surely perish as fools” – Martin Luther King, Jr.
Charles,
You are a big Trumpster. Tell him about religious tolerance.
The following information is to stop stereotyping everyone under one religious banner as the same. Being a Muslim does not make you a terrorist.
To be precise, there are 1.6 billion Muslims divided into 72 sects. Four Sunni Muslim Groups were responsible for 66 percent of all terror killings in 2013.
https://www.real-islam.org/73_8.htm
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/4-sunni-muslim-groups-responsible-66-all-17958-terror-killings-2013
Being a Christian does not make you a fundamentalist evangelical Christian. According to a 2011 Pew Forum study on global Christianity, 285,480,000 or 13.1 percent of all Christians are Evangelicals.
There is Christianity and that includes an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics with an estimated total of 2.2 billion Christians.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-21443313
http://gospelclarity.com/2010/08/25/the-largest-christian-denominations-in-the-world/
Next, how many Christian denominations worldwide?
World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982) apparently estimated almost 21,000 denominations, and the updated World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, Johnson; Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001) estimated at least 33,000. “Denomination” is defined as “an organized Christian group within a country”.
The top ten countries for Islamic terrorism is Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, Syria, Somalia, India, the Philippines, Yemen, and Thailand.
How many of those countries were not on the malignant narcissist’s list and was that because his family does business in those countries?
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/4-sunni-muslim-groups-responsible-66-all-17958-terror-killings-2013
It’s particularly fine to teach ABOUT religions in schools, as long as there is no proselytizing. Religious private schools proselytize. That’s the difference.
I have no objection to kids learning about religion. It’s the “Christians” who do. Just try to put something in a school curriculum that says “some Christians believe….” The “Christians” want only their way taught and they want it taught as fact, not as “some believe”.
Lloyd, re: world Christian stats. I know this was not your point, but googling around I was surprised to find that over 30% (roughly) of the US population self-describes as evangelical/ born-again. (The figure 25% is also seen– that would be the political bloc– but leaves out the 60% of African-American Protestants who are evangelicals).
What a bubble I’ve lived in. I had tended to view the rise of Bible-Belt political power as a relative minority egged on by free-marketers, strict constitutionalists etc. Explains a lot.
Figures show, nearly 1/2 of Tea Party identify as evangelicals– & nearly 90% of evangelicals support TP positions.
You might also find this interesting.
According to Pew Forum.org, 76-percent of Evangelical Protestants and 86-percent of Mainline Protestants are white.
http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/racial-and-ethnic-composition/
And where do we find the most white evangelical protestants? The 2nd map shows 17 states.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/26/the-religious-states-of-america-in-22-maps/?utm_term=.8b59e524ed0f
Remember Galleo’s finding? The Catholic Church would not accept heliocentrism as truth. Galileo’s findings defied church teachings.
This is just one reason for separation of church and state.
One good thing recently happened in ILL-Annoy: a bill to permit vouchers was killed–quickly–in Committee. Not that they won’t try again, but this is great news for the time being…especially since charters are still being pushed (20 new charter applications in Chicago for next year, I believe).
Reblogged this on Network Schools – Wayne Gersen and commented:
This exemplifies the kind of corruption that inevitably accompanies privatization. In this case church coffers are by- passed and, arguably, church’s control over their schools could be compromised as a result. It is clear that the longstanding separation of church and state is destroyed as a result. But the profiteers and political donors are happy and that’s all that matters.