Helen Ladd of Duke University debated Marty West of the Harvard Kennedy School about the cost and quality of American education. It is a podcast and I think you will enjoy listening when you have time.
They were invited to talk about whether the U.S. spends more money than other countries and gets worse performance than other countries on international tests. Ladd disputes both parts of the question, while West is on the side that says we spend more to get less quality.
I would like to see a debate about how the U.S. could have such a “terrible” school system, as the reformers allege, yet have the world’s most powerful economy, with the most innovation, the best military, and the best technology. It is a puzzle.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/recruits-ineligibility-tests-the-military-1403909945
interesting read on this subject…
Rudy,
It is very sad that you have such a low opinion of your adopted country. What keeps you here?
Low opinion? After all that has been said on this list about SIXTY MILLION people, I’m the one with a low opinion???
After Thousands of people who did not agree with the outcome caused millions in damage, in the one with a low opinion?
Well, yes, you express your negative views of this country almost every day.
Once again, I have never expressed a negative opinion about this COUNTRY!! I have read innumerable negative opinions about this country on this list since November 9th. The language used to describe SIXTY MILLION PEOPLE who you disagree with is unbelievable to me. I disagree with positions taken, but at least I try to be respectful in my language.
When I write about the amazing things done in this country by those who are rich, I’m called a trumpite. But when you write about all the perceived bad things, you consider yourself a hero.
I have a low opinion?? I work in the every day world of public education, and experience the bad decisions which are made – daily – where money is tossed away. And the next day the same people complain about the financial problems public education experiences.
I see a Democratic governor ripping money away from public education, and literally, within a week, unions demanding 8% pay increases.
I see the next democrat governor ripping yet more money away from schools, and then wonder why schools have such in issue following educational mandates.
I see a Republican governor Adding millions of dollars to public education as a grant, saying the next year he will make it part of the education budget and school funding for the next year – but forgetting to tell districts that other funding will not be increased – while the extra millions could only be used for the silliness of pulling SIXTY teachers out of the class rooms and hire replacement but no extra money to pay for the extra teachers.
Do I have a low opinion how education is done? For good reasons!
But as I have stated numerous times, I get to work with some great teachers. But you read past those statements.
You attack people why think differently than you do. That’s your right. But you attack the people instead of their cause. And then I’m the one with the low opinion!
I have been member of some groups where insults were tossed about. But this group is beyond me.
But you love this group!
I am reminded that a large percent of Americans who were drafted in World War II were disqualified because of low weight. Guess you cannot fight if there is a famine. Funny thing is, no one blamed the rejected draftees, and most took wartime jobs, doing work they had been barred from before the war on the basis of their incompetence. Today finds the military needing smart kids who are physical too. I bet there are more who could not pass the physical part.
I want to add:
How could the U.S. have such a terrible school system and yet be ranked the 4th most educated country on the planet with almost 3 college graduates for every job that requires a college degree, and to have the largest publishing industry on the planet that sells more books, magazines, and newspapers than 2nd place China that has more than 4 times the total population?
How do we measure a country’s literacy?
By the number of readers who actually buy books, magazines, and newspapers, and who read. Test scores do not reveal how many people read. The best way to discover how many people are reading is to look at a country’s publishing industry.
1st place: United States with 21.5 billion Euros in net revenue and a total market value of 31 billion Euros.
The U.S. has about 320 million people
2nd place: China with total market value of 10.6 Billion Euros
China has about 1.357 billion people
http://publishingperspectives.com/2012/10/ipas-global-ranking-of-publishing-markets-us-china-on-top/#.WDMrkvkrKUk
Today 1 Euro is equal to 1.06 US Dollar
== How could the U.S. have such a terrible school system and yet be ranked the 4th most educated country on the planet with almost 3 college graduates for every job that requires a college degree, and to have the largest publishing industry on the planet that sells more books, magazines, and newspapers than 2nd place China that has more than 4 times the total population? ==
A degree does not necessarily imply a well educated person. If I have to believe the writings about Jared Kusher, the majority on this list seems to believe his Dad bought him the degree.
Apart from that, many graduates end up with jobs totally disconnected from what they graduated with. Case in point: I have worked in the technology section of a school district, but none of my degrees have even the slightest bit to do with the job requirements.
The largest print industry is also an easy one. Des Moines. IA (Which is rumored to be the magazine capitol of the world) prints magazines that are distributed all throughout the English speaking world. Same with the book publishers etc.
Just because you print a lot of reading material does not mean that you have people who actually read the materials.
More people speak English as a second language (and that includes China!) then speak Chinese as a second language – hence, a better market for English language publications.
Rudy,
I assume you left the Netherlands and moved here for a positive reason. No one forced you to come here against your will, right?
Most Americans think this is a great country. Most readers of this blog think this is a great country that should be addressing its problems, not pretending that the free market cures all ills. It doesn’t.
Where have I ever said this is NOT a great country? What I did was show that it is a false conclusion to say we are the greatest because we publish the most, have more people who graduate from college… have the best military…
What the WSJ makes clear is that the Armed forces are really much pickier than they used to be, and that TWO THIRDS of the age group does not make it into the military – and education is part of that reason.
They also do a much better job, by the way, of pushing continued education while serving their country.
“A degree does not necessarily imply a well educated person.”
This is a weak attempt to discredit what the U.S. education system has accomplished. Before NCLB, RTTT, and all the other crap, it was the most admired education system in the world. Before 1999, the Chinese and Finland sent teams to the U.S. to study what our public schools were doing. They returned to their countries and implemented what they learned and now Shanghai, China and Finland are not only highly ranked on the PISA but are both considered excellent public school systems, among the best in the world.
And most of what they learned in the U.S. has been swept aside for tests that rank and punish.
The claim you made may be true but it also applies to every country in the world. The U.S. was still ranked 4th in one ranking, 8th in another, and 10th in another, depending on the method used to rank countries. Earning a degree isn’t the only factor.
For instance, comparing on-time high school graduation rates in Japan to the U.S. Japan wins only when the details are missing.
96 percent graduated on time, but 70 percent of Japanese high school students graduate from academic high schools while the other 25 percent graduated from vocational schools so they could go right into the workforce instead of going to college.
89 percent of Americans have high school degrees but they are all from academic high schools because the U.S. doesn’t have any vocational high school degree programs.
We can argue about the relative value of our schools all day, but I agree with Diane. Our public education has had a profound effect on the accomplishments of our citizens and our country. I also have to defer to Pasi Sahlberg when he states,”America does not have a problem with “failing” schools; it has a problem with extreme income inequality.” No policymakers want to tackle this issue honestly and frankly.
They mention that since our schools are decentralized, it may make more sense to compare one state to another rather than our average to other nations. What is missing in all the comparative data associated with value, there is no discussion about the relative value of charters and vouchers. Not only have charters and vouchers squandered valuable education dollars on waste and fraud, they have diminished interest and spending on the common good. The whole structure of charters and vouchers automatically reduces our capacity to provide quality education for the public schools most children attend. America cannot afford to spend tax dollars on market place gambles that produce meager results while they increase segregation. We should be focusing our efforts and resources on legitimate public schools. No nation has ever successfully privatized its educational system, and every high functioning nation invests in strong public education.
“I would like to see a debate about how the U.S. could have such a “terrible” school system, as the reformers allege, yet have the world’s most powerful economy, with the most innovation, the best military, and the best technology.”
Been asking that question since the advent of the edudeformer and privateers holy writ “A Nation at Risk” (which has been debunked many times over.
I don’t understand why we’re not talking more about the great things our teachers are doing in spite of being under funded. What don’t our schools have? My goddaughter asked for a ream of copy paper for Christmas a couple of years ago! Her whiteboard is actually plastic shower stall wall material that can’t be cleaned. She works in the Boston area.
Our schools are giving our students wonderful, whole child educations. They’re winning awards for the wonderful things they do with parents, students and other community members but we rarely talk about it.
What do the almighty (all richy) charters have – facilities in good repair with great technology, small classes, resources we can’t even dream about? That’s what I hear is the case for many charters. Where does that money come from? Do they save so much by not paying certified teachers that they can afford all those amenities or do they get tax deductible gifts from afar? How much more money does all their splendor take? Can community public schools get some from the same places? How about just enough for small classes?
Proud of public schools
Mary
Given that some, many, most?? other nations in the world do not educate ALL of their children, isn’t comparing education in the US where every child is provided free public education to other nations an apples and oranges comparison?
Community public schools are far and away the ideal education model in a democracy in my opinion. They can operate as great safety nets — I’ll never forget the day a $3500 electric bill evaporated within hours of an email that went out by a respected teacher… noting that the lights were going to be turned off of some student’s family in the school. The family was never named. As I went to make a $25 donation at the end of the day, it was no longer needed. Just 1 of the bigger examples of all of the many, many small things that happen as a group of teachers/administrators and parents/neighbors work together in a common goal of giving their children the chance to realize as much of their potential as possible.
From the way you write, you seem to imply that non-public schools do not get involved in such things??? How many examples do you want?
Are you a professional contrarian? The wages and benefits must be good. Dental and vision covered? Just kidding.
When I see insulting things written yes, that bothers me. Our district has connections with a number of religious schools. I see the same kind of involvement in the lives of their students.
Some of the churches in the area have members who volunteer for hours after school is out to help and mentor kids who cannot go home right away.
And this is at buildings where the parents choose not to have much to do with their kids education. R
To PTA Mom:
There is so much that tax payers can afford to pay for their BARE daily survival after paying all kinds of taxes, insurance for healthcare, car(s) and house.
Would you think that everyone can have extra $25 donation like you? This is the true reason that paying equity is matter to protect workers’ dignity and their DECENT living needs.
Most of all, if all parents MUST work overtime or a second part time job to meet their survival, then children will suffer in learning at home. Further, the digital or online education for K-12 is a fraud scheme to loot PUBLIC TAX FUND for the real WHOLE CHILD education in Public schools.
In short, the white nationalist movement determines to elect the administration who will work against their wishes = restrict people’s freedom of expression, but promote political GRAFT. Back2basic
Here is a definition of GRAFT or you can click on the link for more details of GRAFT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graft_(politics)
[start definition]
Graft, as understood in American English, is a form of political corruption, being the unscrupulous use of a politician’s authority for personal gain. The term has its origins in the medical procedure where by tissue is removed from one location and attached to another for which it was not originally intended. Similarly, political graft occurs when funds intended for public projects are intentionally misdirected in order to maximize the benefits to private interests.
[end definition]