This is one of the best articles ever on how to end the teacher shortage.
Janice and Geoffrey Strauss write:
Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s irrational vendetta against teachers and public education, aided and abetted by the state legislature and former Commissioner John King’s inept handling of Common Core, charter schools and the public education system have all led to such a toxic atmosphere in education that few candidates want to even get near public school teaching…..
We must make public school teaching attractive again, and here is a short list of what should be done:
1. Eliminate the EdTPA. This system, promoted as increasing standards for teachers, is in reality so onerous and poorly thought out that it is discouraging qualified applicants to the profession. It costs both teacher candidates and the state millions, and has resulted in teacher candidates being less prepared for teaching rather than more so.
2. Eliminate standardized testing in the public schools and for teacher candidate preparation. Research shows the best indicator of a student’s success is their GPA, not standardized test scores. Standardized testing merely adds to the coffers of the private testing industry. Reinstitute teacher-created Regent’s exams. Teacher created exams are age appropriate, more accurately test the learning of students and cost much less than corporate prepared tests.
3. Let teachers mark their own students’ tests. It’s cheaper and better.
4. Eliminate corporate “canned” teaching modules created to meet Common Core Standards, and allow teachers to create their lesson plans. Teachers are the experts; release their creativity so that they can teach students properly.
5. Make the teaching profession attractive financially. Eliminate Tiers V and VI in the teacher retirement system. One of the tradeoffs teachers had accepted for the relatively low pay for the amount of education required was a decent pension. Tiers V and VI were created to punish teachers, not reward them for their service.
6. Create a “Teacher Bar Association” to establish educational requirements for teachers for public and charter schools, thus officially recognizing that teaching is a profession. Lawyers, doctors and CPAs are experts in their fields, as are teachers in theirs.
7. Establish a program to help raise the status of teaching in the public’s consciousness. Few want to enter a profession which is constantly derided by politicians and the press.
8. Common Core has been a disaster; eliminate it. While the intent was perhaps a good one, it was created by non-educators more for political and profit motives than educational ones.
If we want more teachers, we must make the profession attractive financially and creatively. Let teachers do what they do best — teach!
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Many teachers I know, including my spouse, are adamantly opposed to their children entering the teaching profession. I think that speaks volumes.
I refused to let me children enter public education. Both my wife and I are teachers looking for an exit strategy.
I find it interesting that the only option you see is to leave school completely. In nearly any job there is some type of accountability. I know folks that work for the US Govt that still must sign in and sign out every day to account for their hours (yes, I know – teachers have to often do it too)…so how is leaving teaching going to be that much better. Why not stay in and try and make change from the inside?
After 28 years if trying to change things I don’t have any more energy to fight from inside the system. I’m tired of the constant negative press about educators. 99% of educators do great things and all that is reported is 1% negative. I have to find a way to fight from outside the system.
I applaud your service to the profession…however one thing I have always learned is that there are only so many things in your control – you mention the 99% positive teachers and 1% negative that gets all of the press. I have seen plenty of positive press about teachers as well. And I am not sure that 99% are fantastic. I understand your perspective, but is it really worth leaving the profession, and a group of students (future students) that you could reach?
After 28 years if trying to change things I don’t have any more energy
At some point my peace of mind an sanity has to matter. A person can only be disrepected and treated like a leper so much before that can not take anymore. When you are in a job where there is no hope for advancement based only on having the wrong complexion and plumbing. It is very disheartening to watch less competent and qualified people continue to be promoted over me. I’ve hung on for 5 years just to get to my retirement.
We need to restore dignity and civility to this much maligned public service in order to attract the right type of people to the profession. Their proposals sound like a restoration to what we had in New York prior to the corporate attacks on public schools. I can attest the old ways are the better, more cost effective ways of handling testing. In the last ten years, our policymakers have lost their minds and have caved to the corporate demands that want to destroy public schools to make our children agents of corporate profit. We need to restore sanity and reason to public education for the sake of our young people and our future.
I doubt we’ll have much luck restoring the teaching profession so long as neoliberalism reigns. Unfortunately, that or fascism seem to be our only two choices next election. Unless, of course, we all wake up and realize that third parties do exist….
Good ideas but that’s not the plan.
The plan is to remove certification requirements. You’ve posted this in many instances. Detroit Public Schools just needs experts to teach. The Tea Party rag (aka The Detroit News) has had FOUR editorials in the past week praising the glories of non-certification. In one editorial, they mistakenly noted that a teacher shortage is happening and will be getting worse. So classrooms need adults.
The way to address it is apparently to have temps / tourists who will rarely stay. Or will stay until the more desirable and higher paying job occurs. At which point they’ll leave mid-year. I mean, we’re increasingly at-will anyway so why bother to feel any loyalty or commitment to the school or its students?
That’s the future. And market forces will somehow make all of this even better than what we have now. Right?
Excellent points.
Assumptions are key. If one’s assumptions are wrong, so is everything that follows.
One needs to address what (or more precisely who) is actually driving teachers away — Tech moguls like Bill Gates and Laurene Powell-Jobs and political “leaders’ in both major parties — and why they are doing it — to first replace career teachers with temps and eventually replace them all with technology.
Both Gates and Jobs have a vested interest in taking over public education and turning it into a tech, warehouse. Parents and community members should beware, “All than glitters, is not gold.” Research tells us that strong relationships with human teachers get positive results, and the research on cyber charters is an abomination. Communities must look before they leap.
Did anyone check to see whether there actually is a shortage of teachers in New York?
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2015/01/23/tough-job-market-teaching-candidates/22235837/
Just a small detail.
Tim,
Did you comment on the big story about Detroit yesterday, about how the expansion of charters has caused a collapse of education in that city?
Lots of choices, no good choices.
Why not send Eva to save Detroit?
Diane, regarding Detroit, I can’t say it any better than your friend Jay Greene. The Times used CREDO research to say that Detroit charters aren’t any better than district schools. Unfortunately, that’s not what the CREDO research actually concludes. https://jaypgreene.com/2016/06/29/nyt-hatchet-job-on-charters/
You’ll have to clue me in as to what Eva Moskowitz has to do with any of this.
Point 5 is specific for New York State.
6. Create a “Teacher Bar Association” to establish educational requirements for teachers for public and charter schools, thus officially recognizing that teaching is a profession. Lawyers, doctors and CPAs are experts in their fields, as are teachers in theirs.
My take: This is precisely the argument that lead to the edPTA and NOTE tests. This statement is also an implicit endorsement of charter schools and charter teacher ed programs designed for charter schools, notably the Relay Graduate School of Education with Doug Lemov the guru of no-nonsense Pavlovian-inspired indoctrination, especially for children from low income and minority students. But that is hardly the only example of peacock parading about “elevating” the profession and “lifting up” the work of teachers. The current preparation programs for the practice of law, medicine, and public accounting (CPA) are easy to hold up as if exemplary. Close comparisons of the work of teachers and other presumed-to-be-exemplary professions show how different teaching is/should be (until the algorithms and the robots do it all).
7. Establish a program to help raise the status of teaching in the public’s consciousness. Few want to enter a profession which is constantly derided by politicians and the press.
My take: This is part of the work of this and other blogs, many books by well-informed people, the July event in DC and so on. The problem is that deep pockets have been waging a non-stop and multi-pronged campaign to discredit teaching and with no small amount of the venom coming from the US Department of Education, from billionaires with their “institutes,” think tanks and other shills.
More generally, teaching is not now and is never likely to be comparable to the professions held up as if exemplary.
For some well-informed reasoning about this issue and with a bit of history see. https://danielskatz.net/2015/07/10/teaching-a-profession-unlike-most-others/
In doing research for a project, I looked into the Bar exam, particularly the Multi-state Bar Exam. Interestingly, the association establishing Bar standards (NCBE) complain that students leaving law school are poorly educated and ill prepared and scores are declining, pointing the finger at law schools. The law school deans counter that the Bar is rote, black letter law and a poor measure of legal ability. The educators contend that what is taught in law school is critical thinking and a better judge of the graduates’ abilities would be the law professors. The arguments from both sides looked eerily familiar. Déjà vu all over, again.
Mentoring and apprenticeship have worked for humans over thousands of years. If you want to know a good teacher, you ask a great teacher.
So, considering that the bar exam is (from what I know) a memorization of facts, I can see why it is not considered useful…(sounds like the Praxis exams)…yet the key is that there is a common assessment of what lawyers should know..
yes, mentoring and apprenticeship work…and should not be taken out of the equation…but that is assuming that you can find enough strong mentors (that is a challenge at our teacher prep program)…
The objections over the Bar and Praxis are valid. Neither has prevented poor lawyers and teachers, but both certainly denied good ones. But since the latter is impossible to prove, the argument becomes “we can’t stop doing the wrong thing just because what we’ve been doing might be wrong”. These standardized certification tests (systems?) share much with actors at an awards speech and Reformers – all assume they are far more relevant than they really are and should just stick to what they do best and let others do their job.
So you miss the point. The question is whether tests like the Bar and Praxis are, in fact, a measurement of competence. The college deans and most in the professions agree they are not. They fail as a “common assessment of what lawyers [teachers] should know”.
My experience with all these standardized certification processes, from Praxis to Ohio’s RESA, is they suffer from hubris. Far from setting a minimum standard, these processes believe they can “raise the bar” with faceless econometric magic in a cubicle somewhere. Be honest. For both the Bar and Praxis, you go out and buy a cram book or take some prep course, then never visit the rote test content again. For RESA and, I will guess edTPA, you game the system to get through it, then later actually learn from others more experienced or through constant self improvement and experimentation.
Mentoring is not part of the equation, it is the answer. Nearly every accomplished person in their field has standing behind them a mentor. Not a test, but a real human who knows them. If we cannot find enough qualified mentors, it is because we no longer value and develop them. Experienced teachers should be viewed as a national treasure, not an annoying line item expense by some pinhead, number crunching Reformer with a spreadsheet but never a classroom. And we need to stop with the demonization of teachers. A little positive support would go a long way towards developing a mentoring corps.
Thank-you Vale Math. This is much more on point than all the talk about a “bar exam”. My husband and I definitely were not suggesting another test! We believe that, like other professionals, we are the best qualified to learn from and to help each other in this profession.
Janice – Duane has asked me before what makes me so qualified to make my statements – couldn’t I say the same thing to you – what makes you the person that is qualified to judge if a candidate is ready for the classroom. And if you list things like, “I have X number of years experience, I have won this award, etc” – those are similar qualifications of edTPA scorers who you deem are not qualified.
To your comment, “a large MAJORITY of submission involves work they do NOT need to do to prepare for the classes they are teaching. It forces them to focus on one class at the expense of their others. It takes huge amounts of time away from their prep time for the actual student teaching, and makes them sleep deprived, so they are not at their best. I see first hand the tears, the frustrations, etc:”
So, I have seen folks before doing edTPA be sleep deprived, and in tears, etc. simply because of teaching…Should we NOT have them student teach because it causes them stress, anxiety? One of the biggest misconceptions about the teaching profession is that it is a rather easy, cushy gig. It’s not. And worst -the more that you care, the more that you put your heart and soul into it, the more stressful it can sometimes be. You mentioned “focusing on one class” – are you saying that when they know that a supervisor is coming into observe a lesson that there isn’t more focus on one class? Finally, to me many of the characteristics involved with planning a strong edTPA – organization. discipline, focus, ability to meet a deadline, are some traits that I would want of any teacher…Teachers plan, instruct and assess daily – right? That is much of what edTPA is about…you mention things like kids being absent, video release forms…what happens when a teacher plans a major assessment and then finds out that morning about a field trip where 3/4 of their class will be gone (yes, that happens in teaching, right?)…they have to adapt, right?
Whatever.
Glad to see that you are open to conversation Janice. I could have said the same to anything you wrote, but am trying to be open to dialogue.
I don’t disagree with you that mentoring is very important – however are there really enough quality mentors out there? Maybe yes. but what I have often learned is that the answer is no. I recently worked with a former graduate – who had a mentor in her two years in one system. The first mentor met her maybe once or twice during the year. the second mentor was not even in her field. It’s not as easy as just saying, “Mentoring is the answer”…
In terms of one of your other points, “For RESA and, I will guess edTPA, you game the system to get through it, then later actually learn from others more experienced or through constant self improvement and experimentation” – two thoughts. 1) standardized (aka multiple choice tests” are not that easy to game – rather it’s a matter of memorization and getting the right answers. With something like edTPA, to me it’s about how the student views it. At my institution, we certainly have had students (and their faculty members) view edTPA as something that must be gamed and get through. On the other hand, we also have had candidates that have gone into it with an open mind and seen the process as a positive one, where they did grow in terms of examining their own teaching
The best way to attract great teacher candidates, and to keep veteran teachers from leaving is to focus on working conditions. Teachers want to work in a clean, safe, collaborative environment where they have a measure of autonomy and professional respect. Every corporate education reform (merit pay, test-based accountability, undermining job protections, focus on test prep) undermines these very basic needs and drives veterans away and discourages new candidates from making teaching a career.
http://russonreading.blogspot.com/2015/08/irony-education-reform-and-teacher.html
My former suburban New York school had several former NYC teachers in its ranks. Working conditions and class size were the two major reasons they gave for leaving, and third was a higher salary.
of possible interest…. On right now. Livestream on ESSA. Lamar Alexander versus Patty Murray
http://www.help.senate.gov/hearings/essa-implementation-update-from-the-us-secretary-of-education-on-proposed-regulations
Laura,
Give us a summary. Is Patty Murray defending John King?
Here is the transcript of Kings testimony:
Click to access King91.pdf
Thank-you so much for re-printing our “Guest Viewpoint”! We feel both honored and humbled! As for some of the comments here, we absolutely understand that this is NOT the direction our government is going, but hope those who care will use some of the points to lobby their legislators and whoever else will listen. We are counting on the old adage that suggests the more people hear something, the more likely they are to believe it! As to whether or not there actually is a teacher shortage in NY, it depends. I hate that kind of answer, but if you are majoring in physical education, for example, you will have much competition. However, my student teachers in ESL and often world languages get snapped up before they graduate. Substitutes are definitely becoming very difficult to find, and here in NY, their numbers will dwindle even more as the new law goes into effect whereby all certificate holders must register on the state’s TEACH system. Many currently subbing retirees are saying they won’t do it.
I hear you saying that NY student teachers in ESL and ‘even’ WL get ‘snapped up’ yet what I see on the ground w/ESL (NJ & NY) & ESL & WL teachers here in NJ are very much underemployed. From my viewpoint on the ground as a free-lance WL PreKteacher is that public schools have postponed Sp ed to 3rd-gr or later. Here in central NJ, Span-ed starts in K only in the highest SES districts, i.e., Summit and Livingston. A few PreK’s take that as a reason to start Span early; others figure why bother, kids will get Span in K. And there are many PreK’s who claim they offer Span, but what they actually offer is either an online program, which kids can participate or not at will– or they happen to have a bilingual staff member who teaches a few words & a song.
If you are looking for a highly-experienced PreK Span teacher to support early-language-learning, email me at ginnybee3@comcast.net
As with many things posted here, I agree with some and disagree with others.So here goes:
I completely agree with points 5 and 7 – more needs to be done to praise the teaching profession (and raise the salaries of teachers)…
With points 1 and 2…if you want to take out edTPA or other standardized tests – my question is how can one objectively determine if a candidate is ready to teach? I am not advocating for a removal of supervision, etc. And I am certainly not calling for non-certification (anyone can teach), but there has to be some way to objectively determine ones’ readiness.
A previous poster complained that the creation of a Bar Association (6) led to things like edTPA. It is true that those that advocate edTPA see it as a “bar exam” for educators…Maybe it should be that a Bar Association comes first and determines the standards for teacher readiness across the nation, but I do believe that such standards should be set…I would propose options for assessments (edTPA, PPAT, NOTE, or states could create their own that would then have to be proven as valid or reliable). So unlike the bar or the medical boards, there would be openness to different teacher performance assessments.
Point 3 – here is my question – while this is ideal, how many teachers will be tempted to cheat when grading ones own tests (if its happened on standardized tests already, why not here). Where would the oversight be?
Also, I do believe that there needs to be a common standard of what students learn in different content areas across the nation…I sometimes see the product of the lack of rigor in HS math courses when students come to college – the high number of remedial math classes that are needed. It is unfair to those students to be fooled into thinking they succeeding at higher level math when they were actually not taught the proper content.
Now, about those “canned lesson plans” – that I agree with the authors – there needs to be more freedom to create lesson plans. However, I also feel that if teachers do not show the ability/creativity that is needed that back up options be necessary. I do not believe that every child must have the same lesson every day.
Also, concerning the poster that asked did NY have a teaching shortage. Honestly, I had heard that one of the reasons NY implemented things like edTPA was the exact opposite, that the state was producing TOO many teachers, so they needed a method to determine which ones were really ready for the classroom. So to see the announcement of a teacher shortage is rather surprising.
“…my question is how can one objectively determine if a candidate is ready to teach?”
You can’t. Teaching is inherently subjective. Trying to objectivize teaching is exactly what’s led to scripted lessons, standardized tests, teacher evaluations based on such tests and other loss of teacher autonomy.
“…how many teachers will be tempted to cheat when grading ones own tests…?
Why would they? If their own evaluation/pay/retention is not based on student “performance” (test scores), then what motivation would teachers have to cheat on behalf of their students?
well, there are some teachers that believe that they are helping their students by either providing them with tests that are not rigorous enough. And even if they are not judged on test scores, there are teachers that will want 100% passing (or a similar mark) to get praise, attention, etc. Or they believe that passing their student on (for the grade, or even graduation) is best – how often have students over the years simply been passed so that the teacher doesn’t have to deal with the student?
All of us (including myself) have probably graded tests subjectively – adding a point here or there to raise a students grade. Is this a horrible practice – probably not – in many cases it provides students the hope they need so succeed down the line. But if this is done on a regular basis or if students that shouldn’t be passing are passed, well, that can lead to issues.
Yes, I am stating what many may not believe – not all teachers are in the profession for the best reasons or their rationale (“this student has tried so hard…) isn’t always the best
“. . . my question is how can one objectively determine if a candidate is ready to teach?”
One can’t “objectively” determine that. One may evaluate, one may assess, one may judge but one cannot “objectively” do any of those things. It’s all subjective no matter how vociferously the protestations of psychometricians and standardized test supporters say otherwise. Repeatedly saying something is so does not mean it is so.
To understand why, allow me to quote the preeminent standards and standardized testing proponent Richard Phelps in the introduction to his book “Correcting Fallacies About Educational and Psychological Testing”:
“Physical tests, such as those conducted by engineers, can be standardized, of course, but in this volume, we focus on the measurement of latent (i.e., nonobservable) mental, and not physical, traits.”
Notice the specious argument by proximity of engineering standardized tests of physical properties with the psychometric supposed measurement of. . . what?. . . “latent (i.e., nonobservable) mental . . . traits-they must be the same thing, eh!?!.
And tell me how it is possible to measure something that cannot be detected, i.e., “nonobservable”? Umm, that’s a logical impossibility and that jlsteach is what you are asking if it is possible to do with your question of “objectively determine” if someone is “ready to teach”.
A logical impossibility (objectively determine. . .) resides only in the mind of the of the thinker and has no basis in reality, i.e., the perceivable world of science and/or rationo-logical thought.
jlsteach,
You stated “. . . when they were actually not taught the proper content.”
And how do you know if that actually occurred in the many classrooms from which those students come? Were you in those all of those classes and have read the syllabus and curriculum of each class to ascertain that the teachers didn’t teach “the proper content”. Perhaps it was the student who didn’t learn the curriculum as presented.
Your statement lacks credibility from a sheer common sense standpoint!
And it is absurd, then, to use that as a justification for having supposed standards, that aren’t really standards to begin with as no educational “standard” has been developed in a way consistent with the major standards organization’s such as NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) and ISO (International Organization for Standardization) requirements.
Duane – here is how I know. I had students coming to me from the different class showing me what their teacher was teaching them, which was different from the content of the class. That is now I know, I have also had students, after they graduated, return to the school and tell me that they didn’t learn the proper material.
Why is is that just because one person states something negatively about teachers you get so defensive and think that there it is impossible that I am speaking something that happened to me?
“I have also had students, after they graduated, return to the school and tell me that they didn’t learn the proper material.”
And you assumed that it was the teacher’s fault that the student didn’t learn. The student statement can be seen as self-exculpatory but still doesn’t begin to prove that the curriculum wasn’t followed and covered.
I get defensive when I read less than stellar arguments coming from those who I believe should know better than to pawn off such shabby arguments to promote their cause, which in your case is using the edTPA as a “gateway” test for teacher certification. Until you can address all the errors and invalidities involved in that process (and that will be never as it is a fundamentally, onto-epistemologically fatally flawed process) I feel compelled to address those, like yourself, who so vociferously defend the indefensible, that’s all!
So now we are not believing everything students say? Look, I know that the tide has changed. When I was a student, certainly whatever the teacher said or did was practically gospel – my parents believed the teacher more than anything else. The burden of learning was on me. When I last taught, even an AP Calculus course, I noticed a change, where the burden was completely all on the teacher. I get that.
As for, “my cause” of using edTPA – I would not say that is my cause at all…Rather I do believe that there should be a better relatively objective determination of whether a teacher is ready for the classroom than the multiple choice Praxis Exam. Yes, I think that edTPA is a good start on things. But one could chose PPT, the could chose NOTE, they could create their own, as long as they show reliability and validity. My “cause” if there is any – is to try and improve teacher preparation as a whole…I don’t think that one can stereotype anything in this profession – I have worked with lots of great teachers – some of them were Teach for America or from Alt-Cert programs. Others were not. I have also worked with lots of not so great teachers…
In regards to your last thought. I never felt I had enough information to judge another teacher. We, Spanish teachers, did have one teacher who struggled and I heard about it from the students. I discussed my concerns with the department chair who, by then, had also heard the concerns. She attempted to help the struggling teacher to improve. The struggling teacher left after a few years. I spoke a fair amount with that teacher and for me her problem was expecting public school students to act like the Catholic school students she went to school with 30 years before. But it was not my position nor my inclination to judge that teacher’s pedagogical skills as I never was in her classroom.
I never judged another teacher, mainly because I had never been in his/her class. I may have had my thoughts, as when all of the students concur on a teacher’s classroom teaching skills, but it is not my position to judge him/her, again, because I never saw them teach.
To use a few teachers who from your point of view were inadequate as the basis to say “I have. . . with lots of not so great teachers” is a bit hubristic and I believe not valid for lack of evidence, as it appears you weren’t in the teachers’ rooms and were not their supervisor. Perhaps in calling the kettle black you overcompensate for the black pot of your own judgement/condemnation of teachers for whom you did not have adequate information. And perhaps that is why you are so adamant about “objective” assessment???
I see know where I misunderstood you, jlsteach. I thought that your first statement referred to your teaching at the post-secondary level, but it appears that that you were referring to your secondary teaching. Is that correct?
yes. All it is when I taught at K-12.
jlsteach,
How long and when were you in a K-12 public school teaching position?
I ask because your comments @ 12:29 seem to reflect a very skewed view of teachers and what goes on in a K-12 classroom. It certainly doesn’t jibe with my 21 years in a public education classroom and discussions with many colleagues over the years.
Duane – I taught 10 years. As part of my teaching, I was awarded a national award for my teaching in a secondary mathematics classroom. I guess your experience and colleagues were different than mine.
Thanks for that info, jlsteach. Was your experience in a public school classroom?
yes, the latter part – I spent five years teaching in an urban public school district.
If you don’t mind me asking: And the first five years?
Two private schools.
When we scored state tests, the names of students were not on the papers the teachers read and scored. All the teacher saw was a number. Each unknown student had a number, and papers were distributed randomly. Teachers never got to see whose test was being scored. If the teacher knew she had her own student, she would switch with another teacher. The director of testing attached names to papers after the tests were scored. This system worked well for many years. It was helpful for teachers to see the types of answers random students from the school were producing. It shed some light on our strengths and weaknesses as a team. It was a fairly reasonable and helpful system, particularly when high stakes are NOT attached to the outcome.
So yes, this seems like a reasonable system…one of the things that many do not know is that edTPA scorers are half K-12 educators and half teacher preparation faculty…so that assessment IS scored by those in the field…
I graded my students’ regents exams for years and years before it was decided that I was not to be trusted as a professional. I get to grade their tests all year long. Actually, many students want their own teacher to correct their tests. Imagine if college professors were told that they could no longer grade their students’ exams (or MAKE them, for that matter). It is just another in a long list of loss of autonomy for teachers.
I am all for teachers creating their own tests in the classroom, and grading their own tests…however, my concern is how are we to know that what’s on those tests fits the curriculum and is accurately preparing students. I have witnessed (as a K-12 educator) colleagues have free reign on what is taught in a class without any standards at all – and then have those students feel cheated about what they were taught. That’s wy I think having some type of oversight is important. As for grading the regents or your own students – I think that 80% would be fine. And in many ways I don’t see an issue with it. I simply raised the question would it encourage others to cheat.
I doubt there are many openings in NYS for early childhood Spanish. NY has a requirement that students complete one unit of world language credit by the end of 9th grade. Now that so much effort is being poured into passing the ELA and math standardized tests, many schools that used to have elementary language programs have eliminated them. As a result Modern Language students are being steered by their advisors into ESL (now called ENL by State Ed). Consequently, when a school does need a World Language teacher, there are few candidates. I have actually had principals call me and ask me to have our WL graduating seniors call them. Hope that clears it up. Good luck to you.
“Make the teaching profession attractive financially. Eliminate Tiers V and VI in the teacher retirement system. One of the tradeoffs teachers had accepted for the relatively low pay for the amount of education required was a decent pension. Tiers V and VI were created to punish teachers, not reward them for their service.”
This is long overdue. It’s been almost a decade since we’ve had a retroactive pension benefit enhancement in NY. What could possibly go wrong?
Thank-you, Duane Swacker, for your comments on assessments. As we noted in our Guest Viewpoint, there is a great deal of information that indicates a teacher’s assessments are at least as, or more, accurate than standardized testing. I firmly believe that I, as a Student Teacher Supervisor, am a much better predictor of who will be successful as a teacher than is a standardized test. This is especially distressing now that the edTPA is taking a great deal of valuable training & practice time away from my students during their placements. It is seriously undermining our program. My students were already required to take several standardized tests, and those still exist; the edTPA is on top of all the others. With regard to other comments by jlsteach, yes, Cmsr. King did tell a SUNY gathering several years ago that NYS was producing too many teachers. He sure fixed that! My Methods class had 20 students in 2012. This year it had 5!
Janice – I think that the issue may not be edTPA but as you noted that students have to take so many standardized tests…From my perspective, edTPA could do a better job measuring candidate readiness than a multiple choice tests. So maybe if those were eliminated that would help.
I also ask a couple other things – do you know for sure it’s the tests that caused the numbers to drop? Are there other factors out there – maybe the impression that there are too many teachers in NY?
Thanks Janice for the kind words!
And thank you and Geoffrey for your well written post!
jlsteach,
You stated: “. . . could do a better job measuring candidate readiness than a multiple choice tests.”
No, it can’t as there is no “measuring” involved in either type of assessment. There is no agreed upon standard unit of measurement, no exemplar of that unit against which to calibrate the measuring device and there is no measuring device. It is a blatant misuse of the term “measure” when assess, evaluate, test, judge etc. . . could just as easily be used.
I’ll be honest, my student teacher supervising teacher was a dud. More interested in finding someone to fill in while he coached. Far too young and inexperienced and with little to offer. We need to ensure only the best teachers become mentors.
Some of the recommendations make sense, but this one: “Research shows the best indicator of a student’s success is their GPA, not standardized test scores. ” makes none at all. This would mean that as long as teachers give high grades to their students then the teaching quality must be high. Who believes this?
Some of the worst teachers I had in school consistently gave very high grades to everyone in order to make it less likely that anybody would complain about the class.
Some of the best teachers I had in school were very tough with grades and even a low grade meant that one learned a lot and the class was very worthwhile for most.
Furthermore, class selection in many cases isn’t random, so in a choice between the teachers above, which students do you think would find their way to which class? Lazy students and ones more concerned with grades than learning would tend to gravitate to the first one while dedicated ones and ones more interested in learning than grades would tend to end up in the second kind of classroom. I have no idea what “research” might show that somehow teachers being allowed to evaluate themselves is the most objective way for them to be judged, but it sounds about as reliable as when an accountant says that you shouldn’t allow an auditor to review his work because he is a far better judge of his own work than some auditor who might disagree with him would be.
Confident and competent people aren’t afraid to allow their work to be reviewed by others. A refusal to be reviewed and evaluated is a sure sign of either lack of trust in the reviewer or lack of self-confidence among the people being reviewed or both.
Brian – I completely agree with you here…Education courses are often courses where students are given grades of A, where a B+ may be the lowest grade in the class,..
and I really appreciate your last statement, “Confident and competent people aren’t afraid to allow their work to be reviewed by others. A refusal to be reviewed and evaluated is a sure sign of either lack of trust in the reviewer or lack of self-confidence among the people being reviewed or both”
I know that in many cases it’s the lack of trust of the reviewer, but I have always thought that if folks are afraid of being evaluated maybe its because they are worried what folks will really think of their teaching
Hi Brian, Start reading. There are numerous studies, articles, etc. out there to support what Geoff and I said. https://edsource.org/2014/high-school-grades-are-a-better-predictor-of-college-success-than-sat-act-study-says/58033
Janice – So I think what Brian (and I in my comments) were referring to was grades (or GPA) being a better predictor of successful teacher than other measures. I doubt there is anyone here that would disagree with the study that you just posted – that GPA is a better predictor than SAT/ACT scores….
jlsteach – My personal opinion is that the vast majority of standardized tests should be eliminated, certainly those now being forced on teacher candidates. In its present iteration the edTPA is the most harmful because it destroys the student teaching experience. Of course, any eliminations would help. My students complain a great deal about costs. And, no, I don’t believe it is just the tests that have caused the numbers to drop. Note the other issues we mention in our Viewpoint. There are many things going on that we did not even mention. (We had a 500 word limit) Here in NY, there has been much legislation, largely instigated by the governor, that makes teaching much more difficult. Students are being advised by parents, teachers, etc. to stay away. A perception that there are too many teachers in NY is NOT one of the reasons ever mentioned. Thanks for asking.
Thanks. You and I can agree to disagree about edTPA “destroying the student teaching experience” – our candidates have completed it for the last few years and this has NOT been an issue at all – now, granted our state is no a policy state, so it is not high stakes, however, we have about 20% that do get officially scored because they are moving to other states that are policy states. edTPA involves some writing (some say a lot of writing). But its basic components – lesson plans, instructions, assessments, are things candidates should be doing every day. So how does this “destroy student teaching?”
Going back to what Brian mentioned – if one is doing well in the classroom, why should they be worried about being assessed?
Grades vs standardized test scores means nothing since both are notoriously invalid.
The foundational question should be: “Should public K-12 be the sorting and separating mechanism for higher ed, for the work force and/or the military?” In other words: “Should the government through public schools be discriminating against (through genetically influence/controlled abilities) some students and their wishes/desires while rewarding others?”
Is that just? Does it follow from the fundamental purpose of public education as gleaned from the states’ constitutional authorization of public education “The purpose of public education is to promote the welfare of the individual so that each person may savor the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the fruits of their own industry” that the state should discriminate against some through inherent genetic and out of control pre-k environment which are no different that by race, gender, sexual orientation, while rewarding others?
jlsteach,
You reiterated and concurred with Brian’s statement “I really appreciate your last statement, ‘Confident and competent people aren’t afraid to allow their work to be reviewed by others. A refusal to be reviewed and evaluated is a sure sign of either lack of trust in the reviewer or lack of self-confidence among the people being reviewed or both’” and you stated “but I have always thought that if folks are afraid of being evaluated maybe its because they are worried what folks will really think of their teaching”
I have never seen anyone in any position (except maybe those at the top of the hierarchy-ha ha!) who were “afraid of being evaluated, and especially not because “they are worried what folks will really think. . .” (not only teaching but anyone in any position in the business world).
I really wonder how you come up with these absurd “rationales” that you give in defense of the indefensible, standardized testing like edTPA.
And finally jlsteach at 3:12 raises her stawman argument: “if one is doing well in the classroom, why should they be worried about being assessed?”
That is about as unfounded and specious a question as could be raised. I’ve never, yes never, have seen that in either the business realm or in schools in the 45 years I have worked.
In respnse to Diane, this is not a summary of today’s ESSA hearing, but a few highlights.
At about 1: 55 on the live stream running over two hours, Senator Alexander read the National Public Education letter aloud and into the record. NPE was heard, but not much more than that.
Senator Alexander and others were not pleased with King’s use of “regulatory guidance” on ESSA to rewrite the law. In his closing comments Alexander illustrated the two step, around the barn door rhetorical tactics King was using. His noted how these tactics worked with this example: USDE inserted the common core into RTT grants without using the words Common Core, but instead saying: “states may apply for these grant if they have standards in common with a substantial number of other states.”
Earlier in the hearing Alexander pointed to some of King’s “guidance” offering states the option to do this or that. Alexander, clearly angry, said to King: “You do not have authority to specify options.”
Secretary King has managed to anger at least three senators for letting staff respond to letters addressed to him and/or not responding at all. When Senator Burr of North Carolina asked King why he did not trust local and state officials to make decisions, King invoked his all-purpose reply of the day: The law allows flexibility but keeps the “civil rights guardrails” in place (meaning testing and other mandates). Senator Murray and several other Senators referred to ESSA as “a civil rights law.”
Senator Murkowski wanted clarification on “waivers” for some grant programs. She pointed out that USDE had the practice of giving “competitive priority to diversity in choice” in some of the grants (code for including charter schools and personalized computer delivery of instruction). She pointed out that 80% of communities in her state, Alaska, were are so isolated from roads and technology options there is “no choice.” King had no answer other than to suggest that other grant programs might work (all of these legacies that will vanish in about seven months). Murkowski also got a double royal runaround on her urgent request for an accountability waiver due to totally botched statewide tests.
King is a master of doublespeak. He conflated standards and assessments as if evidence of validity and reliability for assessments can be/should be mustered for state standards. The law does not require evidence, just “assurance” that state standards are challenging.
King deflected attention from his regulatory guidance (re-writing of ESSA) by repeatedly assuring Senators that he was following the letter and spirit of the law, giving states “flexibility” while keeping the “civil rights guardrails” (testing mandates) in place. King used that phrase several times to justify his “guidance.”
King reiterated that the law requires a 95% participation rate in tests and that states were given freedom to decide on consequences. He justified the breakout of test scores by subgroups as a civil rights issue, “not letting any student performance be swept under the rug.” He justified the use of one summary score for each school in state report cards so that “parents and other stakeholders” could know how effective their schools were.
Senator Warren made a brief appearance. She asked how USDE would address the “opportunity” gap. She cited data on the frequent absence of calculus and advanced placement courses in schools with high enrollments of minority/low income students. In response, King referred to “legacy” programs offering competitive grants, and otherwise dodged the question, noting that ESSA funds are supposed to supplement not supplant state resources. Warren’s second question addressed the issue of contracting for loan services in higher education. She asserted that there was evidence of political influence, too little accountability and asked King what he intended to do about that. Vague promises, not much more. (This was the wrong hearing for that question).
The next hearing will deal with Title II, teacher education. That should be a doozy.
What a ploy! Get the black guy to support “civil rights guardrails.” King is trying to activate “white guilt” to justify federal overreach. If King knew anything about testing, he would know it does not serve minority students well, especially if low scores are used to deny the student access to a free public school with authentic teachers, and their parents are denied a voice in the new corporate school. That’s a much bigger civil rights issue in my opinion.
Duane Swacker – I knew there was a reason I liked you. I taught Spanish for most of my 33 years (more, if you count subbing and college level classes) in public K-12 education. Also have my ESL certification and have done that some, more now that I teach at the college level. jfsteach and Brian Yoder, there seems to be a misconception that standardized tests — whether they be for grades 3 – 12 or the edTPA, are an accurate tool to be used for teacher evaluation. They most definitely are NOT! Not wanting standardized tests has nothing to do with fear of evaluation! I also read the comment that the edTPA is graded by half K-12 and half educators in the field. That is not true here in NYS. There are many retirees grading here and a candidate’s most important qualification is how close s/he comes during training to matching Pearson’s grades on anchor papers. To answer jfsteach’s question about how edTPA harms the student teaching experience — it goes way beyond actual lesson planning. it takes a very large chunk of time that used to be spent on preparing real lesson plans and forces the candidate to use that time to work on the edTPA answering repetitive inane questions. Most submissions are 60-70 pages in length, and all must include uncut video following a pre-determined set of students. Absent students, waivers not complete, etc. etc. screws up everything. If the cooperating teacher has several preps, you can be sure student teachers do not have enough time in a 24 hour day to do it all.
I guess it all boils down to this — either you believe me or you don’t that this reform movement is an existential threat to our public school system. If you do, our letter provides you with some ideas how to fight for our schools when speaking to legislators, etc.
Janice Strauss, I do believe you. I am just a free-lance teacher of PreK Fr&Sp (mostly Sp these days) in NJ. What is ‘our letter’– can you give me a link? I would like to support you.
The “letter” just refers to the letter to the editor that my husband & I wrote & that Diane posted here on her blog. Technically it is called a Guest Viewpoint because our newspaper only allows 150-200 words for letters & up to 500 for Guest Viewpoints. Then Diane saw it and posted it here.
Bien dicho, Janice.
Viste (vamos a tutearnos,eh) que jlsteach no me respondió a mi respuesta de 1:53 que tiene que ver con eso la objetividad versus la subjetividad, y que nunca será una evaluación que sea objetiva. Cuando no se puede negar ese hecho los que aman esas malprácticas no dicen nada y tratan de olvidarlo. Les causa una forma especial de disonancia mental que no se permiten a asimilar.
Desafortunadamente la disonancia mental les extende a mis estudiantes! Voy a continuar luchar estas “reformas” con todo que lo tengo. For those of you who don’t speak Spanish – I say simple that the mental dissonance mentioned by Duane extends to my poor students & so I am going to continue fighting these “reforms” to the best of my abilities.Thanks to all of you in this existential fight with us!
Duane – lo siento que no se respondi a su respuesta (yes, Duane, I know Spanish)…
Janice – to respond to you comments – 1) How do you know that NY has a majority of retired teachers scoring edTPA assessments? And is there a problem with having retired educators as evaluators?
as for your comments on standardized tests, for the most part I would agree that standardized tests are not effective. But I think that you and I would disagree on whether something like edTPA is a “standardized test” – yes, there are rubrics – however where you and I will probably disagree is that there is one “right”answer for doing well on edTPA. That is not the case at all. I also believe that some type of common assessment is of value. As I have mentioned before (and clarified with Duane) I have seen examples of teachers that will teach however and whatever they want in subject and then give students a high grade for material that they really didn’t study. Who is that hurting? The students.
As for your comments on edTPA, I never said edTPA is just lesson planning. It includes instruction and assessment. And yes, some commentary. The 60-70 pages that may discuss – here is my question – how many of those “pages” would be part of the normal lesson (such as lesson plans, instructional materials, etc)? Don’t teachers have to create those anyway? As for forcing candidates to answer “repetitive questions” – questions such as how a lesson plan addresses who your students are and how you meet student needs seem somewhat important. Aren’t these the same type of questions that a candidate may verbally answer after an observation? Also, there are studies that show the value of watching a video clip of ones teaching to notice things for improvement, which is what candidates are doing with the instructional task.
Finally Janice – I ask – are you suggesting that there should be no assessment or no standard of who becomes a teacher (you mention that you don’t like edTPA or standardized tests). So what is the measure? And if you simply say we should leave it to the schools to decide, well, consider how many schools have let folks enter the classroom only to see those teachers leave a few years later.
“Many” does not equal “majority”. I did not say that. And I know that because I know “many” of the scorers first hand. I confess to having scored for Pearson for a year so I could see their procedures first hand. So I guess you missed my point that it is inaccurate to say half the scorers are k12 & half in the field. As to your questions about the edTPA, a large MAJORITY of submission involves work they do NOT need to do to prepare for the classes they are teaching. It forces them to focus on one class at the expense of their others. It takes huge amounts of time away from their prep time for the actual student teaching, and makes them sleep deprived, so they are not at their best. I see first hand the tears, the frustrations, etc. I stand by my original premise – it needs to GO!!!!!!!
jlsteach,
Me alegro de que sepas el castellano. Que bien.
For the rest of the readers. I figured that you could always put my comment through a translator and figure it out. It-the post being in Spanish-was not meant as a means of obfuscation but just as one Spanish teacher to another. And it still brings up what I said in that post that whenever I explain that there is no “objectivity” in evaluation in the teaching and learning process and that there can only be subjectivity as I did in my response @ 1:53. Like all standardized test supporters have in the past you have dodged and not responded to my post. Which is to what I was referring in my post in Spanish.
“. . . my question is how can one objectively determine if a candidate is ready to teach?”
Which I answered @ 1:53. And since you didn’t respond should I assume you agree and if so why would you continue to defend the edTPA? If not, please explain why you don’t agree with my analysis of objectivity vs subjectivity as those concepts relate to standardized testing.
Gracias,
Duane
Duane – sorry I didn’t realize that you wanted me to respond to something so specific…I have responded to various things on this post. But here goes:
So in terms of objective – yes, I can see your point. any assessment will have some type of subjectivity involved. You also write, “And tell me how it is possible to measure something that cannot be detected, i.e., “nonobservable”…so, here’s my response – if you think of non-observable as what was going on in someone’s mind in making a decision, well edTPA tries to get to some of that by having a candidate explain their thinking through their commentaries. It allows candidates to explain some of what may not be seen (or the thoughts behind the moves)
You’re right Duane – when human’s are involved, there will always be some subjectivity. That also includes those that supervise or are mentor teachers (which many have stated here that those are the only assessments that we need – we don’t need any outside assessments like Praxis or edTPA)…So why do I advocate and support things like edTPA. Here goes – I think that the current ways we credential teachers – such as the Praxis exams – aren’t really strong or really measure a teacher’s readiness.
DeAugustino and Power (2009) did a meta analysis looking at test scores and GPA…
http://www.jstor.org/stable/27667175?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Here is something they said (p. 165) – Furthermore, it is important to distinguish between the types and forms of assessments…and performance based assessments…even while considering the lower reliability of the scorers…the scores might more authentically reflect actual teaching…”
BTW, I know that in this same paper is noted the irony that tests that were supposed to hold teacher preparation programs accountable were less reliable than other measures…
So, is edTPA perfect. No. Is is a step in the right direction. I think so…
Thanks for responding jlsteach! Most supporters of standardized testing don’t and I appreciate you taking the time to “justify” (not quite the right word) your belief in the benefits of the usage of edTPA.
For me you are still stuck in what I consider “maldiscourse”, that is, the discourse of “measurement” as being possible in assessment practices as you use repeatedly use “measures” and various forms of that term in your response.
The subjectivity does not come from the fact that humans are involved in the process. It comes from the fact that there is no objective measuring, measurement to begin with as I explained in the post @ 1:53. The necessary and logically accepted scientific parameters for measurement are not met, not in the least, again, as I showed in the 1:53 post. Since that is the case we are left with only subjective (unless there is a third or fourth or fifth way of perceiving and describing reality-ha ha) assessment.
Now were the proponents of standardized testing to explicitly state so and drop the whole veneer of objectivity and of standardized testing being a scientific endeavor, I might but probably not, accept that practice. At least it would be more upfront honest. But proponents don’t do that they insist that psychometrics is scientifically based. It is not! It has no more basis in science than does psychometry as proven by the lack of a proper agreed upon standard of unit of measure of the teaching and learning process, no measuring device and attempting to supposedly measure the “nonobservable”. Basing a practice on falsehoods can only result in conclusions that have no validity whatsoever.
Why would one base practices on proven falsehoods?
Duane all this talk about psychometrics, etc. leaves me to ask this question – how should teachers be assessed that they are doing a good job? Or should they be? In all of my posts, I have never stated anything about testing being scientific, etc. Any test can be manipulated, and any two items can be proven to have statistical significance if you manipulate things enough (example – if one were to statistically show a correlation that those that ate mustard only on their hot dogs were better teachers, that doesn’t mean that the faculty lounge should ban ketchup)
So I go back to you -how should teachers be assessed to demonstrate they are doing well? Student grades – well those can be easily manipulated based upon the content of the course (make an easier test, kids get higher grades – even if the content were correct). In your world – imagine a Spanish IV exam where you only asked students vocabulary such as Hola or Como estas? Yes, teachers do this. Observations – well, I think this has its merit, but according to you, it doesn’t. So then, we don’t do anything at all and we just let all teachers get by?
Again – I ask, “how should teachers be assessed that they are doing a good job? ” You have yet to really respond to that. And don’t give me Wilson or psychmetric babble – I am talking about real teachers and real kids..
First agree that “psychometric babble” is just what psychometrics is made of. And I’ll take your request (command?-“And don’t give me” sounds like something my mom used to say to me-ha ha**) with a grain of salt and in a humorous fashion.
To answer your question/demand:
First teachers have been being evaluated in some fashion since public education began and we seemed to have survived quite fine. Personally, I liked the TOA-Topic, Objective and Activities as a starting point for outlining for the evaluator/principal a starting point for observation with a pre-observation discussion about the lessen the goals and then have the observation and a post observation discussion on what the good and bad (never if I was being observed-ha ha, except when I didn’t see two students sword fighting with their pencils, ay ay ay) and indifferent points of the class were. Both parties would write a narrative of how it went which would then give the administrator and the teacher something concrete to document the observation and evaluation.
That’s one of my preferences but certainly not the only one. Since, especially at the 6-12 level where there are “specialists” and most often the administrator doesn’t know the subject as the teacher does and is at the mercy of the teacher to help him/her along in the evaluation process, again it being one of collaboration, responsiveness and respect for the knowledge and skills of the teacher.
What I see you looking for, jlsteach, is a “gotcha” method of evaluation where one can “weed out” all those supposedly terrible teachers (which in reality hardly exist). The teaching and learning process is an extremely complex process involving many humans-students, the teacher and the administrator and any attempt to simplify that process down to a few numbers on a page is ludicrous and risible.
What you have requested, which is fine be me, but reminds me of “Well What is your solution” meme that sooo many people demand. Here is what I have written for part of the afterword of my forthcoming book “Infidelity to Truth: Educational Malpractice in American Public Education”: A tactic of administrators or any powers that be to silence those bold enough to critique their policies and practices, even after agreeing with one’s critique, is “Well, you’ve criticized what we are doing but “What is your solution?” usually said with such tone and emphasis as if they have now trapped the perpetrator in a debate dilemma. The administrator knows that it is impossible to come up with a feasible solution to your critiques in the minute or two they allot you to do so, solving his/her problem of the critical thinker in their employ. He/She walks away smug in his/her confidence that he/she won that verbal battle. And you’re left standing there thinking “What a smug ass bastard!”
It takes an immense amount of ego, of hubris and gall to think that one person can solve long standing, seemingly intractable structural problems in the public education realm especially on such short notice. To attempt to do so guarantees failure. Not only that but who am I to propose solutions for everyone else? Our society doesn’t work that way. So I offer no specific answers but I do offer some general guidelines in struggling to lessen the many injustices that current educational malpractices entail. . . .
**Mama Tried:
Duane – the methods that you recommend here are for those that are observing K-12 teachers. And if I had confidence that they were all used as they should be used, then I would have more faith in the system. But the reality is that this sense of collaboration doesn’t happen often enough.
I was asking you for a method to determine if pre-service teachers are ready for the classroom – if we just “trust” those that are at the teacher prep program, then that has to include those in alt programs or any program
One thing that struck me – many of the posts on this blog discusses the horrible issues at charter schools and the need for some type of oversight at such schools – with administrators stealing money, etc. And yet, removing things like edTPA or other assessments – does this mean that there should be no oversight at all of those that are about to enter the profession?
As for me asking you what your opinion is, or what do you think should happen, I think that you take that question completely wrong. Rather it seems that everything that exists currently, such as edTPA, or Praxis, etc….well, you have offered why they don’t work. So in asking you your opinion, I am asking you what you think would work. Will anything work? Personally, I appreciate when someone asks for my opinion…It’s not always right or perfect, but I hope that I can offer some thoughts on an issue…
jlsteach,
I didn’t realize that you wanted my thoughts on assessing prospective teachers. Hmm. . . . Allow me to give an “ideal” assessing process.
Upon entering the pre-service teaching program, in other words generally after the first two years, I would assign each student to a small group of 3-5 students and 2-3 professors with one of the professors being in the advisor roll helping to shepard the student through the two years (or however long) to complete the undergrad education degree, including student teaching. I would have the student observe in the first semester of being in the program, and the following semester with perhaps greater responsibilities such as being an aide in the class and not just observing. (I say this because I am a firm believer in small class size, i.e., fewer students per adult and this could perhapshelp alleviate finding aides) up through student teaching, progressively getting more responsibilities as they proceed in the program.
As part of the program the group would meet at least every other week at a mutually agreeable time. The meetings would be mandatory and perhaps viewed as a seminar type class that would last the first three semesters leading up to the student teaching semester. During student teaching semester I’d have the student meet with the advisor and the professor in charge of the student teaching class meet at least every other week along with the cooperating teacher. Through this whole process a narrative and/or portfolio of thoughts, ideas, problems, hopes, dreams, etc. . . would be kept, perhaps like a diary for the student teacher with expectations of the student to write or speak for five or so minutes a day to have a record from which to work during the meeting times.
I would bet that a system like this or something similar where the process is one of collective, responsive and collegial back and forth would weed out those who couldn’t handle it for whatever reason and result in a more fulfilling experience for the student.
Now, costs, time, staff, etc. . . I can’t say because I’ve never been privy to any of that information so I have no suggestions there.
Yes it would take tremendous buy in from the faculty, but it seems to me that it would change the culture of teacher ed departments for the better.
I consider myself a “process” type person having succeeded in a number of positions where prior folks had failed due to not correctly identifying the problems and limitations involved, prioritizing solutions and activities towards those solution and setting up systems to do it.
Basically, what I am saying for evaluating student teachers we need to cultivate a collegial, responsive, and collaborative environment in working with the students. And to get rid of the “measuring and grading” attitude and mindset where in the professor is the master and the student the underling, while at the same time recognizing where the expertise lies.
As my youngest son says when someone brings up education: “Please, please don’t get my dad started on talking education, it’ll never end!”
I hope that you weren’t taken too aback by my response to the “What would you do about. . . ” I get flustered because I’ve seen it used the way I described way too many times even in casual conversations. And as I said, I don’t pretend to have all the answers mainly because the problems and potential solutions are so complex and many times out of my realm of “being,” influence (not quite the right word) and/or I certainly don’t consider my knowledge of most educational problems as inadequate to begin to explain a complete synthesis for the complicated problems involved in the teaching and learning process and all that that process entails. (oh shit another run on sentence-ha ha).
Am very much enjoying the conversation, especially when we stop being so defensive* and discuss things as like now.
*I know I can cause that “defensiveness” with some of my caustic comments. (which usually come out when I get frustrated with what I perceive as perhaps not thorough readings of my posts-not that those misreadings aren’t necessarily caused by my not explaining things well.)
One final (at least for now) thought. You stated: “here’s my response – if you think of non-observable as what was going on in someone’s mind in making a decision, well edTPA tries to get to some of that by having a candidate explain their thinking through their commentaries. It allows candidates to explain some of what may not be seen (or the thoughts behind the moves)”
First, how long does it take the edTPA results to get to the teacher?
Because if it is anything more than a few days after submission, I don’t see how that process can help the student teacher in their student teaching. Or is it meant only to be a summative evaluation?
If it is meant as a summative, high stakes test then I have serious concerns as the edTPA process has all the fundamental conceptual (onto-epistemological) errors and falsehoods that all standardized tests have resulting in the results being completely invalid.
But if it is a part of the formative process (and not high stakes) of trying to evaluate the teaching of a student teacher I might be inclined to say okay. But I’d hope that discussions of the student teacher’s abilities and practices would be taking place on a daily basis in a collaborative process much like a physician residency program does. The medical resident doesn’t undergo a standardized cumbersome and expensive process as you (and others) are expecting a student teacher to go through.
Wilson’s Responsive frame of assessment is what should be happening wherein the cooperating teacher, the university teacher and the student teacher discuss and evaluate daily on how the student teacher is progressing.
So, could edTPA not help students in their student teaching per se but in their first year of teaching?
As for the summative/formative question – certainly some states that have it as a policy see it as summative…and I know you already listed you problems with it in that way – I noticed you have yet to answer my question of how teachers should be assessed (I mean in a summative fashion)
I know of universities that use local evaluation where candidates get feedback on their edTPA (qualitative feedback) a couple of weeks after their edTPA – and then can use the feedback to create a professional development plan to assist them going into their first year of teaching. Note – official scoring for edTPA does not offer the qualitative component.
You write, “I’d hope that discussions of the student teacher’s abilities and practices would be taking place on a daily basis in a collaborative process” – I WISH that were happening, and certainly if that were happening consistently then I think that we would all feel better, but the reality is that, for the most part, it is NOT happening – not with student teachers, or with first year teachers.
You also write, “the cooperating teacher, the university teacher and the student teacher discuss and evaluate daily on how the student teacher is progressing” – that would assume that the university facutly (even the university supervisor) is in the classroom on a daily basis – which certainly is NOT the case. Most often it’s about 6 to 8 observations a semester..
So see Duane – you can talk about all of your ideals, what should happen, etc. But the fact is that many reasons – money, time, resources, etc are preventing the ideal from happening. Too often teachers are not being observed, or given enough feedback…
Are you going to avoid my question again, – how should teachers be assessed?
Not avoiding at all. If I would have read this before responding to your prior post I would have put the second half of the post here, but it’s there all in one. Plus a bonus from Merle!!
Another thought.
As the edTPA becomes THE test it is guaranteed that the student teachers will focus far too much time and effort to satisfy the requirements, especially considering the cost (and the cost of a retest), the stakes-that four to five years of hard work and effort may be flushed down the toilet because of a COMPLETELY INVALID assessment (I hesitate to call it a test, although it is like one long drawn out nightmare of a test) leaving the student’s dream shattered and more likely than not deeply in debt.
To me it is the teacher prep institution’s fault that a student would get to that point and then “fail” the edTPA. The institution should be guiding the student to not be a teacher by the point that he/she does his/her student teaching even if there is a remote chance they will fail the edTPA.
But hey, sitting in the “ivory tower” one doesn’t have to worry about being subjected to that high stakes testing bullshit (and I’m insulting cattle by bringing that in).
Duane I’ll respond to some of your other comments later, but a few to this:
1. Edtpa may be required, but it will never be THE only thing needed…students still need to pass their courses and their student teaching. So they will be assessed on multiple levels
2. I agree with you on the responsibility on the teacher prep program to prepare candidates for Edtpa. Some take this responsibility more seriously than others…
However…3. I find it contradictory that back in one of the earlier posts when I questioned if a teacher was preparing students you asked many accusatory questions, such as how did il know it wasn’t the students fault or the student simply saying they weren’t prepared…yet if the teacher is a professor in higher Ed the blame is all on the institution and no responsibility on the students? Is that really fair?
No, it’s not fair to assign “all” the blame on the teacher prep program and I don’t believe stated such. Correct me if I did say that.
Is it fair, in light of what I wrote earlier? No, that wouldn’t be fair either except that when I wrote that I thought you were speaking from the university level of interacting with student coming to you from various high schools. I thought I clarified that I had misunderstood that you were really talking about your experiences at the secondary level. I didn’t make that clear enough, my bad.
But my concerns about supposedly knowing what goes on in another teacher’s class with very limited knowledge and no actual observational information, whether actually being in the class and or asking directly what a teacher was teaching leaves me to suspect any teacher’s analysis, including my own, of another’s competence. I don’t have any confidence in evaluating another professional (except adminimals-ha ha) with minimal anecdotal information. If those teachers as you describe were allowed to stay in the classroom that is an administrator problem and needs to be addressed at that level to prevent further instances of teachers not teaching the curriculum.
The assessment can only be summative. It involves, among many other things, following 3 students throughout the entire placement. They have to show growth! Last year’s semester ended approximately May 20th. I received edTPA scores July 24th. Teacher candidates get their results at approximately the same time. I know this because I get excited calls or emails when they receive their results.
Janice,
Thanks for that information!
Two months later. Hmmm, didn’t we learn something in our first testing and evaluation class (quite awhile back in my case-ha ha-only about 40 years ago) about timely feedback??? Maybe that is just an old-fashioned notion, eh.
For vocab quizzes I got them back the next day but for the chapter tests I used to give them back halfway through the next chapter to use as a means of going back over what they had learned and to refresh their minds. As you know learning a second language entails being able to access and use all that one has learned prior. Not all subjects demand that.
Wanted to clarify edTPA does not expect one to follow three students throughout the placement but rather during the learning segment (there are three focus students). In terms of when official scored get back this is correct…but isn’t it possible for students to use the results in a formative way??
I agree with the authors but I feel much more needs to be said about the bloat of the US Ed Dept. and the unchecked growth of the private education services industry.
We just opened boxes for our summer session containing Pearson curriculum. Our whole summer is scripted with not one teacher allowed to write a single lesson. This one size fits all, Common Core curriculum is way off from the needs of our students, 50% ELLs, 40% SWDs, and almost all overaged 1-3 years. It’s a wasteful travesty and I’m predicting attendance drops quickly.
The testing, the standards, the evaluating is all class war (no pun intended), where the Gates, Waltons, Kochs and hedgefunders play the long game through think tanks and nonprofits, buying off politicians and media. We actually spend too much time debating the technical aspects like validity or accuracy when the crucial reality is that it’s all unproven, disproven and anti-scientific, pushed onto the states through naked payola and the revolving door.
The fatal flaws of deformers is that they see shortcuts where none exist. They use money, fear and threats as motivators which only pervert incentives. They standardize, they privatize and they federalize. This is a major states rights issue, a constitutional crisis. But states are also railroading and ripping off their own districts in kind, especially now as ESSA brings deform to all 50 states individually.
The Strausses correctly ask, why can’t teachers just teach, localities make decisions on their own? Because Obama didn’t want to relinquish the federal NCLB power grab, urged on by John Podesta and CAP who also advise the Clintons, the idea is to carry out the wishes of the large donors, but couch it all as philanthropy, helping the disadvantaged.
I’m not buying it, and neither are the members of the civil rights community. We still have federally mandated testing destroying the joy of attending school and they say it’s so we can identify where the need is in order to…send in corporate curriculum.
Finally, there is existing DOJ/CDC research suggesting the best predictors of future student success are not academic measurements, nor poverty markers, but social-emotional. As a teacher in a high needs middle school, I see how commonly learning obstacles are unrelated to cognitive capability. Many of these issues are trauma related and home based and not fixable through standardization. For almost 15 years, the “big government” hand has been completely barking up the wrong tree.
Jake,
You might be interested to know (I just learned it today) that New York’s tests, allegedly designed by Questar, a new test vendor, arrived in boxes marked “Pearson.”
We were limited to 500 words if we wanted any chance at all of publication, so there was some husband and wife negotiating as to what got included and/or left out. I am not an expert on federal bloat although I don’t doubt it exists. I did speak up at several NYS forums saying that Meryl Tisch’s “research fellows” at NYSED need to go. They are still there and frequently calling the shots (despite denials). My hope is Betty Rosa can do something about that. I do know there are many TFA alums in various places “advising” legislators and bureaucrats in DC, which scares me. As for Pearson, as I suspect you already know, the media hype about their being fired here in NY was nonsense. They still had another year to go on their “canceled” 3 – 8 grades contract, and have been allowed to finish that year. In addition, their questions that had been field tested were to be used by Questar, which would explain Diane’s comment about Pearson’s name being on the arrivals. And of course, Pearson still has many other contracts with the state for everything from the edTPA to some of the Regents exams. Some of your terminology makes me think you are probably a bit to the right of me politically, but we are in complete agreement here!
Reblogged this on David R. Taylor-Thoughts on Education.
Jake, I appreciate your views. I think many of the assumptions that ground most discussions of “fixing” education would be different if, for example, teaching in the arts and humanities served as the source of case studies for thinking about teaching. This is to say that the usual mental model for “effective” teaching is really that of teacher as sage-on-the-stage delivering pre-determined and strictly academic content, in a detailed plan that includes assessment (tests) for learning that content, with recall and relevant use of the knowledge gained a bonus. The major sources of models for thinking about “proper instruction,” proper teacher preparation, who gets judged as “qualified” to teach seem to be math, the highly conventional aspects of ELA (not literature), and the so-called hard sciences. The pursuit of standards to be met by teachers and students has become indistinguishable from a call for standardized teaching–instruction that resembles training more than education. In the arts, instruction is good in the degree it becomes strictly academic, includes conventional content often taken for granted as if essential, and too often stripped of attention to the affinities of students, the possibility of expanding their horizons (and your own) beyond the planned lesson.Those idiotic exercises called SLOs, SMART goals with up to 25 criteria for “thorough” planning and data use are designed to eliminate the possibility of inspired interactions with students leading to unplanned wow-filled activity that makes learning memorable, intelligible, and embraced with love. Too often, the casualty from this preoccupation with rigorous, academic, fully planned, and precise measures of efficient, effective teaching is a love of learning. Students “master” the content and learn to hate the subject.
Reblogged this on Mister Journalism: "Reading, Sharing, Discussing, Learning" and commented:
Janice & Geoffrey Strauss: How to End the Teacher Shortage
Reblogged from Diane Ravitch’s blog:
This is one of the best articles ever on how to end the teacher shortage.
Janice and Geoffrey Strauss write:
Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s irrational vendetta against teachers and public education, aided and abetted by the state legislature and former Commissioner John King’s inept handling of Common Core, charter schools and the public education system have all led to such a toxic atmosphere in education that few candidates want to even get near public school teaching…..
Read more…