Kenya Downs interviews Professor Christopher Emdin of Teachers College, Columbia University, about his new book, called “For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood … and the Rest of Y’all Too.”
Downs writes:
“There’s a teacher right now in urban America who’s going to teach for exactly two years and he’s going to leave believing that these young people can’t be saved,” says Dr. Chris Emdin, associate professor at Columbia University’s Teachers College. “So he’s going to find another career as a lawyer, get a job in the Department of Education or start a charter school network, all based on a notion about these urban youth that is flawed. And we’re going to end up in the same cycle of dysfunction that we have right now. Something’s got to give.”
Emdin, who is also the university’s associate director of the Institute for Urban and Minority Education, has had enough of what he calls a pervasive narrative in urban education: a savior complex that gives mostly white teachers in minority and urban communities a false sense of saving kids.
“The narrative itself, it exotic-izes youth and positions them as automatically broken,” he says. “It falsely positions the teacher, oftentimes a white teacher, as hero.”
He criticizes the “white hero teacher” concept as an archaic approach that sets up teachers to fail and further marginalizes poor and minority children in urban centers. In “For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood … and the Rest of Y’all Too,” his new book released this month, Emdin draws parallels between current urban educational models and Native American schools of the past that measured success by how well students adapted to forced assimilation. Instead, he calls for a new approach to urban education that trains teachers to value the unique realities of minority children, incorporating their culture into classroom instruction. I talked with him about the book and why he says the stakes are too high to continue with the status quo.
Emdin says:
I think framing this hero teacher narrative, particularly for folks who are not from these communities, is problematic. The model of a hero going to save this savage other is a piece of a narrative that we can trace back to colonialism; it isn’t just relegated to teaching and learning. It’s a historical narrative and that’s why it still exists because, in many ways, it is part of the bones of America. It is part of the structure of this country. And unless we come to grips with the fact that even in our collective American history that’s problematic, we’re going to keep reinforcing it. Not only are we setting the kids up to fail and the educators up to fail, but most importantly, we are creating a societal model that positions young people as unable to be saved.
I always ask my teachers why do they want to teach and I can tell by their responses how closely the white savior narrative is imbued in who they are or who they want to be. I always say, if you’re coming into a place to save somebody then you’ve already lost because young people don’t need saving. They have brilliance, it’s just on their own terms. Once we get the narrative shifted then every teacher can be effective, including white folks who teach in the hood.
Downs asks “What are the risks of continuing urban education as is?”
Emdin replies:
The repercussions are around us every day from criminal justice to engagement with the political process, to higher incarceration rates and low graduation rates. The outcomes are right in our faces today. I’m not absolving communities from blame or parents from blame. But we know that schools that have more zero tolerance policies, youth are more likely to get involved with the criminal justice system. We know that schools that have these hyper rigorous approaches to pedagogy, youth are less likely to take advanced placement classes. So the place where the magic should happen is inside the classroom.
It’s not a tale of doom and gloom. I’m simply saying this is why it’s bad but there’s a way forward. And the way forward doesn’t cost a million dollars! It doesn’t require you to give an iPad to every kid in the school district or a $3 million grant. It’s free! Teaching differently is free. Going into the communities and finding out how to do things better is free, man! It’s not an issue of finance or an issue of wealth. It’s an issue of identifying that what we’ve been doing before just ain’t working.

Take up the White Man’s burden-
Send forth the best ye breed.
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives need.
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild-
Your new caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child…
– Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden”
Kipling may have been the Poet Laureate of British imperialism, but he wrote this poem (still flabbergasting after all these years) to honor US colonialism in the Philippines.
It should be the Official Lyric of TFA, and all so-called education reformers, entitled/deluded gentrifiers and urban colonizers.
Just add a superficial layer of expropriated social justice rhetoric to this, and you have the mindset and worldview of so-called reform, in particular “no excuses charter schools, in a nutshell.
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I was just going to post that (and had put in [TFA] after “the best ye breed” in the first line) but you beat me to it!
DAM you.
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Michael Fiorillo: you hit the bullseye dead center.
That is why occasionally I write that when it comes to self-proclaimed “education reform”—
What’s old is new again. *Hint for all Kommon Koresters: it’s not meant as praise.
Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
😎
P.S. I remind the rheephormistas that object to your characterization that when “the sun never set on the British empire” its promoters and beneficiaries and enforcers and defenders used a variation of that familiar “it’s all for the kids” line—they weren’t in it for themselves, they were in it because noblesse oblige constrains meritorious social superiors to help undeserving social inferiors…
Do I rheeally need to finish the last sentence? End it in a Johnsonally sort of way to make it clear?
No, not really…
😏
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Add me to the list of people who were about to post this reference when I saw yours! 🙂
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A white teacher, particularly a white female teacher has to earn the respect of students from another culture in order to teach anything from the required curriculum. A teacher cannot run complicated labs and expect students to record results or read aloud in a chaotic classroom. He or she cannot teach a thing until she can get past obstacles such as a portion of the students not being anywhere near to grade level in reading and not bringing books to class, children being generally rude and disrespectful / not listening / starting physical and verbal fights / taking frequent bathroom breaks and students even talking behind the principal’s own back when he or she is in the room to discuss student behavior. A program to address these types of issues would be most helpful to teachers from another culture trying to reach students of another race. I hope there is such a program in place.
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I learned to do this (while pregnant, no less) as a white female. Granted, I had a LOT of help from a Latina assistant, but what she taught me was basic: build relationships. To be fair, my classes were fairly small (this was an alternative school), so I could do this better than I could in a large class, but I just built relationships. I asked questions. I listened. I was certainly not perfect, but I learned a lot and I got a lot better as I built relationships with kids. It’s not the total answer, but you’d be amazed at how much it helps.
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YES. In one section of my writing I thought back on how messy our low-income, non-dominant-culture school became when outsiders moved in to “fix” us and then forced their never-ending mandates and programs down everyone’s throat. I argue that if you don’t take the time to know a little about the kids in front of you, especially middle school aged students ( 🙂 ) they’ll outright ignore you. You’ll end up talking only to the wind.
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And I have NEVER thought I was a white savior. I hope the kids didn’t think of me that way. I just did the best I could.
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You earn respect by being you, and building relationships with the kids. Don’t try to be the “savior teacher”. The kiddos won’t buy this. Be you, be true to yourself. Joke some, laugh with the kids, talk to the kids, but also maintain discipline and take teaching seriously. If you don’t take your job seriously, they won’t either. If you take your job seriously, they’re more apt to take theirs seriously (in their own odd ways haha).
Don’t pretend that you can “relate” to the kids if you can’t (don’t force an “I understand you” thing), and don’t pity either. Both are evils. Be you, show respect, be firm, be a serious teacher, and you’ll get respect. Don’t befriend students because the students don’t want you to be their friend.
My students used to tell me, “You real”, and I’d always say, “No, I’m the realest” Lol. My students would follow up by saying, “yeah, you right”. “I know”. Lol, our students don’t need to be “saved”. They need quality schools with quality teachers who believe in them and push them hard, but also help them and provide as many supports as we can in the process.
Lastly, we are dealing with people, not robots.
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I’ve worked in Title I schools in New York City for 13 years, and I can attest to the astuteness of these observations. I just wish they would become axiomatic in these discussions, because I am weary of the nonsense that, say, Teach for America neophytes spout.
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White savior narrative? In the dictionary there should be pictures of Arne Duncan and Peter Cunningham.
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And Gates, and Walton and Broad and…(well, the list goes on.) But with the added definition for a White Savior Capitalism: how to make money off the backs of those you are “saving.”
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@ciedie aech: “And Gates, and Walton and Broad and…(well, the list goes on.) But with the added definition for a White Savior Capitalism: how to make money off the backs of those you are “saving.”
What do you make of the recently-revealed federal bribery/corruption scandal in Detroit Public Schools?
I find the following quotation from the above-linked article of particular interest in the context of the entire story:
“It’s pitiful that they’re going after principals who are probably just doing what they need to do even if it might be a little bit unethical in order to provide the students in their schools with the supplies and materials that they need that district and the state should be providing us,” teacher Cathy Brackett said. “They should be going after the big thieves who have come into the district under the guise of emergency managers and consultants who have skimmed not just thousands of dollars but millions of dollars away from our students and just move on to their next gig, seemingly without repercussions.”
There’s a perhaps more remarkable segment earlier in the piece about another indicted principal:
“The one defense lawyer who did speak is Doraid Elder, who is representing Stanley Johnson, 62, the former principal of Hutchinson Elementary-Middle School, charged with accepting $84,170 in kickbacks from Shy.
“Let’s not rush to judgment. These are merely allegations,” Elder told the Free Press. ” I don’t want people to forget that he’s put over two decades of his heart and soul into giving kids the best education possible.”
According to court documents, Johnson ordered school supplies from Shy, then submitted false invoices to DPS, which in turn paid for goods that were rarely delivered. Shy would secretly funnel money back to Johnson by issuing payments to sham companies that Johnson created to conceal the kickbacks, prosecutors allege.”
I have had many thoughts about this scandal since learning of it last week. It occurs, of course, in a much larger context. But while I don’t know all the individuals named, I don’t believe I’m going too far out on a limb to suggest that the vast majority of them are black (that’s because the vast majority of principals in DPS are black).
So who else is making money off the backs of the very people they have been charged with, if not ‘saving,’ at least to doing no harm to. At least.
Oh, and those Emergency Managers Cathy Brackett would like to see charged? Also black.
A fundamentally corrupt system isn’t choosy about skin color when it comes to seeing ethics go down the toilet.
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Unfortunately, such a common sense approach is considerably less likely to line the pockets of the data grabbers and the ed-tech purveyors.
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Good Morning Diane — my best, Deanna
For sharing: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-used-thinknow-think-deanna-burney?trk=prof-post
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This article reminded me of a time when I was studying for my M. Ed in ESL at Teachers College in the ’70s. We studied the work of William Labov because it was thought that students that speak non-standard English should learn to be bi-dialectal so they could code switch depending on the situation. Then, the whole ebonic movement, a misinterpretation of Labov’s work, happened. It seems so many years later we are still having a similar discussion. We should learn from history. Every time we have tried to impose an assumed “superior” culture on another, it has backfired. The colonialist mentality leads to the marginalization of social or ethnic group resulting in anti-social and self-destructive behavior. Whether it is Aboriginal. native people or immigrants, it is dangerous to try to erase someone’s culture. Even forced assimilation can have negative consequences. The French are experiencing backlash from their banning of hijabs. A better approach is natural assimilation which will often result in a healthier bi-cultural individual that respects the first culture and adapts to the second.
I spent my career as a white ESL teacher with black and brown students, although it was not in the “hood.” I always encouraged students to be proud of their families, home language and culture. I always invited parents to the class to share a skill, a story or a tradition with the class. I learned Haitian Creole and decent Spanish so I could communicate with families. My school and district had multi-cultural celebrations, events and dinners. We encouraged the participation of families, and we always let families know that we respect them and want to work WITH them to better help their children.
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Great comment.
When you say “it is dangerous to try to erase someone’s culture” I would add, & nearly impossible to do so. Civilization only slowly evolves from ethnic enclaves, through conflict & trade, to peaceful co-existence in larger groups. Interrupting the process through suppression does not cure balkanization as we see from post-communist times.
a micro-example: my son toured recently w/an Ethiopian/American band in Addis Ababa. It is five yrs since the lid was lifted from a junta that among other things, destroyed every LP it could find of a halcyon period of perfectly-blended Ethiopian folk/ American funk. All ages now gather at monthly festivals, old LP’s in hand, where they re-create & record & mix & perform the style, resuscitating it, restoring the path of evolving music.
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I recently saw a news piece on Cuba. The young people have been pirating American TV shows from Key West for years, and the government turned a blind eye to the issue. People will evolve and change. with exposure to differences. I minored in anthropology, and one thing I learned is to try to be culturally accepting. It helped me to keep an open mind with my ESL students. Respect goes a long way with cross cultural exchanges. ESL teachers like to say that America is a salad, not a melting pot. While we keep some of our first culture, we learn to blend with others.
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I used to teach in Oakland, CA and the part of the narrative that always really gets me is the narrative that it is some kind of MIRACLE or TRANSFORMATIONAL if kids from certain backgrounds and neighborhoods do well on some standardized test or go to college and folks make a movie showing what an inspiration the teacher is. No one blinks an eye if a group of upper class white kids all pass an AP exam and talk about what a miracle. I think that this type of language shows how low folks expectations. A miracle might be if the students cured cancer, not that they pass a basic standardized math test. At the school I taught almost all the students qualified for free and reduced lunch, however they also have a long tradition of some students doing exceptionally well academically. I think at the end of the day it’s not fair to take credit for your students’ successes; they succeed because they work very hard and as a teacher you can only guide guide them on their journey and provide support and encouragement, but please give them the credit for succeeding.
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sarah5565: outstanding.
I do not have the skill of this blog’s wordsmith [see his contribution below] but let me use the words of a very old and very dead and very Greek guy to show my appreciation for your contribution to this thread:
“Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach.” [Aristotle]
😎
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“A Prayer for public schools”
Save us from the saviors
All the superheroes
Duncan with his waivers
Chetty with his zeros
Save us from the Evas
Billionaires and pols
Save us from the divas
Save us from the trolls
Save us from the testing
Save us from the VAMs
Save us from molesting
Save us from the scams
Save us from the charters
Save our public schools
Save us from the Harvards
Save us from the fools
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For what it’s worth (probably not much): I’ve worked with white teachers in inner city schools who’d been teaching in those communities for decades and harbored the same beliefs as Chris Emdin’s hypothetical white boy Two-and-Done-Lawyer-of-the-Future. Not sure which is worse, but I have to ask why it matters that his imaginary fellow will be gone from the classroom in two years. Isn’t that better than spending 30+ years under-serving inner-city kids of color by operating with deeply entrenched racist attitudes?
Further, I will state unhesitatingly that much of what he says regarding white teachers, while true, is also true of more than a few veteran black teachers I worked with in places like Detroit. The problem goes considerably further than “White Hero teachers.”
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Wonderfully said. From the first day I started teaching inside our inner-city district, I’ve had to stand up against culturalism, religious/sexual intolerance, elitism and racism where I found it. It came from all quarters of the “color” spectrum, and, just as importantly, those who stood up to fight against it? ALSO came from all quarters of the “color” spectrum.
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@ciedie aech: Yes, that was my experience in Detroit, Pontiac, Flint, NYC, etc.
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“Not me” and “Both sides do it!” and other deflectors in response to a person’s shared experience of racism is white privilege at its worse. It silences their perspective and shifts the focus back to the privileged. Listening with open ears and an open heart and acknowledging their lived experience is so hard for entrenched white make privilege holders, as exemplified here. Shameful!
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Yes, Chris, using a bunch of cliches instead of actually responding to what I wrote is really a winning strategy. I won’t waste my time asking you to demonstrate that I was saying anything vaguely like that paragraph of nonsense you offered in “answer” because your mind is so utterly made up about things that it would be pointless. Continue to believe whatever you need to in order to avoid thinking. Knee-jerk PC or other flavors of blindness really save effort, don’t they?
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Only a tiny percentage are brilliant, regardless of setting, so hyper-rigorous academic approaches are harmful. More career education is needed.to help kids make it in the real world of American life.
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Reading through the full interview with Emdin, a lot of what he says is jibberish. So his hip-hop curriculum will trump a poor and broken home life? Sounds like he is saying his super-curriculum, but not a super-teacher, is the answer to all the problems. Too bad that’s not true.
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“. . . .he calls for a new approach to urban education that trains teachers to value the unique realities of minority children, incorporating their culture into classroom instruction.”
How does Emdin reconcile this view when “their unique realities and their [black urban male] culture ” includes denouncing and rejecting educational opportunities and ignoring responsibilities while embracing a “their” culture – one that has lead to a dead end for all but a select few, mostly athletes and entertainers?
Edmin is just another ivory tower elite who has made some interesting observations but offers no solutions that would work in the trenches of urban classrooms. Yeah, lets get them to write rap songs about the water cycle – while ignoring 20 to 40 absences a year, chronically rude and disruptive behaviors, and refusal to read, or to study, or to complete the traditional assignments that lead to HS diplomas and college applications.
No, it is not our job to re-make our classrooms in the image of urban culture, but to open doors of opportunity as we drag them (urban students) into the academic cultures of science, history, mathematics, and literature.
Are there some things we can do to help urban youth be more successful in school that maintains academic credibility? Of course; and many of these ideas have been in place for years in the classrooms of veteran teachers. We respect their culture. We listen to their problems. We offer counseling, free breakfast and lunch, credit recovery, and endless opportunity for success, and we offer understanding. And we fight against a test-and-punish culture that is every bit platationism in disguise.
And as far as playing hero, white, ivy league TFA teacher, for a year or two while planning our corporate careers. Twenty years of this FAILED approach is all the evidence we need to reject Wendy Kopp’s undergraduate thesis from Princeton.
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This is probably the moment for further disclosure: I worked, albeit briefly, with Chris Emdin. That is to say, we were both working for the same NYC-based organization, though my work was almost entirely in Detroit and his in NYC. We did attend the same professional development meetings at Teachers College. Someone commented here that he sounds like another Ivory Tower elite. I can’t say absolutely that he is nothing more than that. However, after hearing him in a few of our meetings and then checking out an interview he gave about the appointment of Cathie Black (remember her???) as NYC Schools Chancellor, I e-mailed him to request links, references, and/or materials of his that I’d also asked for in person at Columbia and which he’d promised to send. That was in December of 2010. I’m still waiting. I’m not convinced that he’s more than air.
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I don’t think we need a “hip hop” curriculum, nor should we accept anti-social behavior. I do think we need to think in terms of respect and reaching out to families. Sadly, the schools that need a community based approach are often the ones that are underfunded and forced to operate on a bare bones budget. The blood sucking charters in poor, urban communities make a bad situation worse.
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Sage advice. Spread it far and wide!
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I was that white teacher who was raised in a poorer neighborhood, was the first in her family to graduate from college, thought that was quite an accomplishment, and if I had done it, so could and should everyone else. And I was just the crusader to inspire the elementary school students in the Hispanic area where I taught for 38 years to do it. About 7 or 8 years in, I think I got it about validating those students and their families and the community. Hopefully I practiced what I had been taught – meeting students where they were educationally and developmentally, and taking them as far as they could go. I’ve been retired for 10 years. I cannot adequately express how grateful I am to have missed most of this era of high stakes testing.
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I had a great principal. I was one of the first white teachers she hired; because in those days in DC – they’re weren’t many. She stressed what it took you several years to see. That and she always stressed giving our children a constant exposure to the city, people, and experiences. Many of my students had never left their neighborhood. Many had never done the touristy things that so many people who come to DC do. I had an old-school principal. Too bad many of today’s teachers don’t!
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Your history is similar to mine only I taught ESL to poor students in a middle class district. While I never thought of myself as a crusader, I was always there to do the best I could. I learned a great deal from my students as well as I taught them. Lots of the poor ELLs managed to go to college and have entered what is left of the middle class. I too am so glad that I am not teaching in our current test crazed world. I would probably be on the wrong end of VAM despite having what I would say was a successful career.
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Suppose education wasn’t about getting a job or getting into college, but about just becoming educated by reading good stories, history, geography, and so on. What if it wasn’t about “saving” anyone, or creating “success,” but about becoming the self you want to be? What if your education meant you did what you had wanted all along? What if an education meant you had an opportunity to simply learn about other than your immediate surroundings? These discussions would not be necessary.
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C’mon, we all know education is about answering questions about random texts like this, a released CC test question from the EngageNY website:
In line 41, the narrator compares the musical notes to “flickerings of flame from the candle” to show that the sounds are
A strong and powerful
B gentle and delicate
C quick and changeable
D sad and brief
CCLS: L.7.4,a:
Use context (e.g., the overall meaning of a sentence or paragraph; a word’s position or function in a sentence) as a clue to the meaning of a word or phrase.
Percentage of Students Statewide Who Answered Correctly: 60%
Here’s the context:
“The second movement. How many times Heavenly and I’d gone to sleep listening to it, with our arms around each other. I reached inside my body for the key change and the rhythm change and I felt for the gentleness of it. I saw Leah, a little girl in a long white
nightgown, climbing into her bed by candlelight, and I took a medium-size breath and played. The notes sounded like little flickerings of flame from the candle, little bright lights floating in a dark room. I played it for her to drop off to sleep in her feather bed with her braids spread out on the pillow.”
The “correct” answer is B, but isn’t C also true? And what are they really testing –or at least trying to test –here? The “skill” of scrutinizing context for clues. Assuming we even need to teach this skill (I have my doubts), should learning skills like this be the main focus of education? Seems like a dry and shriveled little thing to me.
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“What was educationally significant and hard to measure has been replaced
by what is educationally insignificant and easy to measure.
So now we measure how well we taught what isn’t worth learning.”
COMMON CORE testing continues to bastardize the MC format using subjective test items. This is as FRAUDULENT as standardized testing can be.
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“Educationally insignificant” is right. When in the history of the world has practicing the skill of using context clues been a major goal of education? Boy, I guess the ancient Greeks and Chinese and Hebrews were really missing the boat with their putative intellectual excellence.
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So here we go again. In the 80s, when I started teaching, there were lots of complaints that white teachers don’t understand the culture of “our” children. “We need people of color in the classrooms because they are best suited to teach “our” children.” It was rubbish then and it’s rubbish now. As a staff developer, I have worked in hundreds of classrooms and one thing is clear, a teacher’s ethnicity has nothing to do with his/her success or failure. Some people have the skills to communicate. Some do not. Some can organize a classroom and some can’t. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. The people who go into teaching want to be heroes, and those with the skills to succeed ARE heroes. They DO save children. To assume that there’s racism behind that attitude shows a distinct cynism on the part of Prof. Edmin.
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