The following comment was written by Robert Marzano, in response to my posting of Emily Talmage’s challenge to his teaching experience and to a purported contract with the Detroit public schools. Having no staff, I am not in a position to do any independent investigation of who is right or wrong. Marzano certainly has the right to defend himself, and I am glad to provide the space. Dr. Marzano, feel free to contact me at my NYU email. I don’t know what more I can do other than post your response.
Robert Marzano writes:
“Dr. Ravitch,
This is Bob Marzano commenting on your report of my interaction with Ms. Talmadge.
“When a friend sent me her blog post, I contacted her via e-mail and informed her that at least two of the statements she made about me were false. One was that I had never taught, and the other was that I had a 6 million dollar contract with Detroit Public Schools. I gave her some details about my teaching background and told her that I do not have a contract with DPS. I spoke one day about a year ago to district administrators for a modest fee. I said I would look into the contract issue since she sent me a link to a news story she had read that reported on such a contract. She had my e-mail and there was certainly a tacit invitation for her to respond to me directly. I found out that Learning Sciences International (LSI) does have a large contract with DPS. They use some of my intellectual property in their trainings. They have since written the original news agency that published the story and informed them of the error. They will be contacting you soon with the same information. To imply that I have a large contract with a district in financial difficulties certainly paints an inaccurate and unfair picture of me. I would have hoped that you would contact me first before writing a blog that implies I have lied and now have been “taken down.”
“I’m also quite disappointed with how Ms. Talmadge has handled this. Apparently she reached out to you instead of me, and you now have spread the false information even further. You have my e-mail now, so I would welcome a conversation with you and Ms. Talmadge that is not played out on a public blog. I must admit, i don’t understand blogs. They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies. In closely, let me say again: it is absolutely false that I have a 6 million dollar contract with DPS. You will be receiving proof of this shortly from LSI.”
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Emily has already addressed his response. His “teaching” experience came before he earned his BA, for one thing.
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Mr. Marzano, what is your teaching experience? That’s a very straightforward question that should be easy to answer. Either it is true that your teaching experience came before you had a BA, or after you had a BA and post-BA you had XXX number of years teaching XX grade at (insert name of school). That’s how most people answer such questions — no need to obfuscate.
However, if it is true that it is a company called LSI which has the $6 million dollar contract with DPS and you have nothing whatsoever to do with that corporation except that they are using “some” of your intellectual property in their trainings, then you make a good point. It is LSI — and their owners and operators — who should be looked into far more carefully if they have a $6 million dollar contract with a bankrupt system. But if you don’t benefit financially at all from that contract, it is unfair to claim that you do. I hope you will reply and clarify this, as well as your actual teaching experience.
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I don’t understand all of the intricacies but I do have this question. When LSI calls themselves the Marzano Center does that mean they incorporated around the intellectual property of Mr. Marzano? or, does it mean that their #1 product is the Marzano product?
http://www.marzanocenter.com
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“You have my e-mail now, so I would welcome a conversation with you and Ms. Talmadge that is not played out on a public blog.”
Marzano says, “I must admit, i don’t understand blogs. They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies.”
I don’t care if Robert Marzano doesn’t understand blogs. That is no reason to want to keep an e-mail conversation on this issue private unless Marzano knows he will not come out smelling like Chanel No. 5, but tainted more like a skunk.
In fact, the traditional media also fits his flawed logic. If the traditional media didn’t, there would be no need for fact check sites.
For instance,
http://www.politifact.com/
http://www.factcheck.org/
In addition there is Vote Smart, a sight designed to help voters wade through all the hype propaganda and misdirection we find in the traditional media.
http://votesmart.org/
I think that Mr. Marzano isn’t comfortable with a forum he can’t control. In a proper debate, that I’m sure Diane offers through her site, Marzano would have the opportunity to respond to anything that he thinks is not correct, but if he can’t, then that explains why he wants to keep this out of the Blog-sphere. If he doesn’t trust Diane’s Blog as a forum, he always has another public option to debate Emily Talmadge. The site is called Debate.org and it isn’t a Blog. It is a public forum where the audience is allowed to vote after weighing what both have to say in addition to their linked and reputable sources.
Debate.org is a free online community where intelligent minds from around the world come to debate online and read the opinions of others. Research today’s most controversial debate topics and cast your vote on our opinion polls.
http://www.debate.org/
The only thing Mr. Marzon has to fear is fear itself if the truth based on all the facts is on his side.
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“. . . but tainted more like a skunk.”
I have always enjoyed the smell of skunk. Was sitting on my front porch a year or two ago and here comes ol Pepe le Pew walking right towards me. Now, skunks cannot see well so I was hoping he would smell me and decide not to come up onto the porch as I although I like the smell, getting sprayed is usually too much (have had dogs get sprayed). Luckily he just strolled on by as I watched the marvelous little creature in it’s black and white beauty.
If your a town dweller though, the smell of skunk usually indicates an aroma of a different sort.
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:o)
Curious to discover what smells worse than a skunk, I found out that: “According to entomologist Renate Smallegange, human beings are the smelliest creatures on the planet. In fact, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service recommends using ‘human scent’ as an effective way to keep coyotes out of your yard. Perhaps the only predator who’s actually attracted to the way humans smell is the mosquito.”
#2 was the striped polecat also known as the zorilla. According to the “Guinness Book of Records,” a single zorilla once was able to keep nine full-grown lions at bay while scavenging their kill.
Therefore, It’s safe to say that Robert Marzano stinks worse than a zorilla (#2) or a skunk that was ranked #3.
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H-m-m-m. I wonder if human scent would keep bunnies and deer out of gardens.
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It doesn’t. Bunnies and deer know that human scent offers them protection from the coyotes. They learn to love it or at last toleration it.
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Dang, although it might work for one of my sons. He is a hunter. Nah. He follows the regulations. The deer probably know the times to hide, too.
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this is another question I have: “Educators Worldwide Will Chart the Future at Building Expertise 2016, Learning Sciences Internationals Fifth Annual Marzano Education Conference
Learning Sciences International announces open registration for its annual Building Expertise Marzano conference for educators, an event that has sold out every year.
Lake Buena Vista, Florida (PRWEB) January 13, 2016
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I know when Governor Sununu wanted to retire from public service he was seeking a Gifted Magnet School that would be a showcase and use his name in the title.
When a board member retires sometimes they name a school after him (it’s rarely a her) such as the Don Meals “special school” in our neighboring town.
So , does this conference get called the “Fifth Annual Marzano Eduction Conference” because he likes a “Showcase” (as Governor Sununu formerly of NH) , or does it mean that he gave them a huge philanthropic donation and they desired to name the conference after him because he was a retired philanthropist?
Just wondering. As I mentioned I don’t have any information on the intricacies of how the corporations are set up… My only experience was with the former Superintendent who used a non-profit corporation to siphon of over 30 million dollars to feather his own nest and get his teacher’s pension up to the highest in the state of MA. And the Attorney General has boxes and boxes of the data to portray the many loopholes in the legal arrangements (the legislature seems to think they have closed the loopholes but wait til they take the cap off the charters)
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it appears the the contracts are in several states/districts…. such as OK, FL, but for a City with such poverty and “busted budgets” why would it continue to be a priority?
This is the wording for a school district in FL. “6c. The multi-metrics components of the Marzano Teacher Observation/Evaluation system will be calculated as presented in the trainings presented by Learning Sciences International. The first year of implementation (2011-2012) the Status Score will represent 50% of the summative score. In year two and beyond, the Status Score will be combined with the Deliberate Practice Score for 50% of the summative score. The Instructional Practice Score (50%) will be combined with the Student Achievement Data Score for the remaining 50% of the teacher evaluation.
6d. The multi-metrics represented in the Marzano Teacher Observation/Evaluation system will be implemented beginning in school year 2011-2012.
6e. The proficiency ratings presented in the training by Learning Sciences International are those adopted by the Great Teachers sub-committee for the summative evaluation.
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Given my anger and frustration with the CAP procedure in MA and the Gates “grants” for teacher education observation in MA , I would like to know about the reliability and validity of the “teacher observation/evaluation system” that is described in this Florida district and contract for intellectual property of LSI.
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one newspaper cites the costs for a “contract”
“According to Michele LaBute, chief operational officer with Collier County Public Schools, the purchase price for the iObservation contract was about $445,000, including $144,650 for the software license and about $300,000 for professional development. Of that amount, $100,000 was paid through the district’s general fund and the remaining $345,000 was paid by the district through the Race to the Top grant.”
Maybe the “Collier” school could afford this and they probably had to choose from the state approved evaluation systems.. I thought something like this was happening when Margaret Spellings was in control and Reading First was examined for various conflicts? There were several states that wanted to know about the government choosing the product and then the local district having to buy what was recommended/selected by the “feds” or the state commissioner’s office. I would have to look back at the files I saved on Reading First.
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“paid by the district through the Race to the Top grant.”
Ugh. Race the Top must have been an absolute money machine for the various contractors. 4.3 billion dollars spent and we have nothing to show for it.
They should have done improvements to facilities- they would have employed some people who were desperate for work in 2009 and we’d have built something that lasts. Instead we bought services from contractors.
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Click to access marzano-application-2013.pdf
LSI … a LLC corporation
New York has the product as FL also does for districts to review before buying anything. Seems to me that some districts would not be able to afford all of this. Last week I think i commented that the corporate computer software/licensing/ firms go direct to the Purchasing Office with the contracts in hand…. and the boiler plate (presumably the state education DESE has approved before hand? but then the process can vary from state to state.
As I mentioned I am not overly pleased that the Gates ‘Philanthropy” is digging into the teacher ed programs in MA — as we have great hospitals we also had many great teacher education institutions and my fear that Gates will take us backward (you know how David Berliner says Cronbach pounded reliability and validity into this head ? I don’t think the people in the Commish office have had enough of that pounding).
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In an attempt to discover where and what Marzano actually taught with he was an alleged teacher, I can’t find any detailed information from Wiki or his own site that brags about all of his college degrees but not one work about his teacher experience.
Who proclaimed that Marzano is a “leading researching in education”. That’s what it says on his own site: http://www.marzanoresearch.com/robert-j-marzano
Robert J. Marzano, PhD, is cofounder and CEO of Marzano Research in Colorado. A leading researcher in education, he is a speaker, trainer, and author of more than 30 books and 150 articles.
No mention of his alleged teaching. Why?
And what exactly is a ‘leading researcher’?
I even checked Wiki and even that entry, that sounds like it was written by someone who works for Marzano, says nothing about his alleged teaching experience.
Here’s a Blog post that I found about Marzano:
“Marzano is an author, reseacher, and CEO; he is not a teacher. The official Marzano websites are replete with access to countless workshops, teacher training, books, DVDs and other products. His research laboratory has amassed tons of statistics on student learning, assessment, strategies, learning goals and rubrics; all in an effort to increase student achievement by helping teachers master the dozens of strategies deemed necessary to create the highly-engaged, highly-effective classroom. Those wishing to be fully “baptized” in his methods can now obtain a Master’s degree in The Art and Science of Teaching via Wilkes University in Pennsylvania (shall I save you a seat?)
“As a recent recipient of Marzano teacher training, I’ve had a chance to observe firsthand the scope of changes to come; the entire system is being overhauled. Some strategies are just a repackaging of what good teachers have always done, others are very new to most of us. Admittedly, the new ideas have rekindled my efforts to be the best teacher I can be; yes, even this ole’ dog is excited about learning a few new tricks. Many teachers are feeling anxious and overwhelmed by the rapid pace of new procedures on top of the already heavy burden of fulfilling their daily duties.”
http://hubpages.com/education/How-to-Survive-Marzanno
I smell the scent of a charlatan, a fraud and a skunk, and I don’t think it matters that Marzano believes his own thinking and is his own biggest cheerleader.
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Thanks, sad subject, but the comments are light enough in places to give some relief! “believes his own thinking and is his own biggest cheerleader” That sounds like an important person we all know…
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Reading First controversy — A Questionable Controversy…” investigation and a series of reports by the Department of Education’s Office of the Inspector General citing supposed lapses by Reading First staff and potential conflicts of interest among contractors and panelists reviewing programs.
**The decision about which “research-based” curricula to use was left to the states and districts.
**[staff member Doherty] was forced to resign after he was “caught” steering states away from programs he felt did not meet the requirements of the law. (A series of vivid e-mails in which he denigrated things he believed were flagrantly against the law did not help his cause.) His deputy, Sandi Jacobs, was reassigned. Congress held hearings and decried the Department of Education’s management of the program.
***The dispute over his [doherty’s] actions rather reflects a deeper disagreement over the proper role of the federal government in education,,,, [the law] further instructs the Department of Education to assist and hold states accountable in meeting this rigorous requirement [of Reading First]. But, as if denying or ignoring the import of what such assistance necessarily entails, it leaves in place older language that prohibits the department from endorsing programs or dictating local decisions about curricula. The IG and some in Congress have interpreted this prohibition as trumping the mandate to guide the states and hold them accountable, but no legal guidance has been issued establishing that this is so.” end quote
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What comes to my mind is Arne Duncan’s flippant and disingenuous letter to Ed Markey saying “we give you all the flexibility” in the world; and “the locals” are responsible” to see that vendors maintain integrity (this was to do with FERPA and privacy of student data).. so the Catch 22 presents itself.
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Just as “the decision about which to use”, the Commish of MA is now going to meet with each individual school committee where they chose NOT to use PARCC. But , as Duncan told Markey, we are giving you all the flexibility…. (and will search and destroy in the event things don’t work out… but that will come later when we fire your school committees and close your schools).
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this is big business “http://www.celtcorp.com/resources/1/Summit/CELT_National_Education_Summit_2014.pdf
we need to get the momentum going again on “Repairs not iPads”
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Bob Marzano writes to (1.) contest the details of Emily Talmadge’s original post. But he also is attempting to (2.) call into question the validity of blogs.
He writes, ” I must admit, i don’t understand blogs. They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies.” Bob prefers that a conversation that is, “….not played out on a public blog.”
Okay, Bob.
And, I’m sure Bill Gates and Andrew Cuomo and Eva Moskowitz, to name just a few powerful people, would also prefer that bloggers just go away, too. They’d love to control the terms of engagement. But, you know, democracy and free speech are messy. And, this is still the United States.
You might not want to have a “conversation” that is played out in public. But what about the millions of hard working teachers who have been publicly shamed by the so-called “reform movement’s” attack on public schools? And, what about all the kids who have been harmed by the long list of half-assed, unproven “reform” schemes?
In regards to this particular blog, let me say I have the utmost faith and confidence in Dr. Ravitch’s integrity. My children all know about her. My son recently did a major project that included many of her ideas.
I’ve never paid a penny for the fantastic education and inspiration I’ve found reading this blog.
My guess is your services typically come with a price tag.
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“call into question the validity of blogs”
Since the corporate public education demolition derby (CPEDD) can’t control most blogs—except for those they fund and launch on their own as counter propaganda—it makes sense that these charlatans, frauds, fools and crooks, and I think Marzano as one of them even if he doesn’t think so—wants to destroy the validity of blogs, but they must tread lightly here because there are tens of millions of bloggers, who have friends and/or followers, and many of them would be offended if they were attacked as a group.
For instance, I produce four Blogs, and one of them, the most popular blog, has more than 650,000 hits and more than 16,000 followers. Last year, just this one Blog averaged 278 views a day.
The validity of anything, be it a blog post or a traditional media piece, must be fact checked. To accept anything one reads without knowing the valid facts from reliable primary sources is foolish and stupid. The traditional media does not guarnatee balance or truth. I know what I’m talking about. I earned a BA in journalism—and learned enough to know how inaccurate and/or biased much of what is published in the traditional media is.
The traditional media a for-profit industry and often the truth/balance is sacrificed on the alter of greed, but for many Bloggers, where greed doesn’t factor in, passion for an issue rules supreme even if one is horribly biased and cherry picks the facts to support their thinking.
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John Ogozalek: well put.
😎
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“He writes, ‘ I must admit, i don’t understand blogs. They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies”
and I don’t understand the intricacies of LLC or corporation but “they seem to be a venue for” getting the purchasing managers/business office to purchase expensive computers (that need to be replaced and updated every year) and the “licensing” agreements that will hold you in slavery in perpetuity “without consequences” for the slipshod experimental data with limited reliability or validity (a la Pearson)
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This reminds me of the questions surrounding Charlotte Danielson. When there is public monies up for grabs we can guarantee that consultants will be the first in line.
Remember this? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-singer/who-is-charlotte-danielso_b_3415034.html
From the article, “Charlotte Danielson is supposed to be “an internationally-recognized expert in the area of teacher effectiveness, specializing in the design of teacher evaluation systems that, while ensuring teacher quality, also promote professional learning” who “advises State Education Departments and National Ministries and Departments of Education, both in the United States and overseas.” Her online biography claims that she has “taught at all levels, from kindergarten through college, and has worked as an administrator, a curriculum director, and a staff developer” and to have degrees from Cornell, Oxford and Rutgers, but I can find no formal academic resume online. Her undergraduate degree seems to have been in history with a specialization in Chinese history and she studied philosophy, politics and economics at Oxford and educational administration and supervision at Rutgers. While working as an economist in Washington, D.C., Danielson obtained her teaching credentials and began work in her neighborhood elementary school, but it is not clear in what capacity or for how long. She developed her ideas for teacher evaluation while working at the Educational Testing Service (ETS) and since 1996 has published a series of books and articles with ASCD (the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development). I have seen photographs and video broadcasts online, but I am still not convinced she really exists as more than a front for the Danielson Group that is selling its teacher evaluation product.”
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I agree. It seems that neither of them will just say up front where they taught, what they taught, and when they taught. Danielson’s website and support sites have only said that she has “She has taught at all levels, kindergarten through university, has worked as a curriculum director and staff development director, and is the founder of The Danielson Group.” (from the danielsongroup.org website) Notice how there is never any mention of the particulars as to her teaching. I can’t imagine her teaching kindergarten as what I’ve seen of videos of her scare me enough let alone children. I find very little information as to her background except that she is “a former economist”. Maybe that explains it right there.
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So, she’s the Mavis Bacon of teacher evaluation checklists…
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“You might not want to have a “conversation” that is played out in public. But what about the millions of hard working teachers who have been publicly shamed by the so-called “reform movement’s” attack on public schools? And, what about all the kids who have been harmed by the long list of half-assed, unproven “reform” schemes?”
the NY description is a public record ; the school committee purchases are public records… He is trying to intimidate anyone who would dare to say “look at the record” “Look at the costs” “where are the data on reliantly and validity ? are they published?”
public record — open meetings — mean open conversations
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What do you think of King’s apology?
“In his first major speech, the acting U.S. Secretary of Education John King apologized to the nation’s teachers.
Speaking to a small group of teachers, students and local politicians here last month, just three weeks after taking over the post, King admitted the USA’s education debate over the past few years has been “characterized by more heat than light,” and that despite reformers’ best intentions, “teachers and principals, at times, have felt attacked and unfairly blamed for the challenges our nation faces.”
King acknowledged the attacks had come from as high up as his own federal agency in Washington, D.C., where he’d served as a top advisor to former Education Secretary Arne Duncan for more than a year.”
I think it’s interesting they are finally admitting this. It seemed obvious to me that teachers and public schools were being blamed for everything under the sun and I’m not even a teacher.
I wonder if it’s political positioning, and if it is, why now?
http://www.jointhefuture.org/join-the-future/us-department-of-educations-belated-fake-epiphany
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King’s toast, like his boss. Too much bad karma, activity and press, it’s beyond the tipping point for redemption. The Congressional hearing where he appears not to know the difference between right and wrong, is 100 times worse than Rubio repeating his 25 second sound bite, over and over again.
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Mr. Marzano in his own words:
1), “I must admit, I don’t understand blogs.”
2), “They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies.”
The second immediately follows the first.
While others far more knowledgeable than I can discuss the pedagogical aspects of this, I am somewhat nonplussed by Mr. Marzano’s one-two punch against himself.
First, speaking strictly for myself, when I “don’t understand” something that has some importance to me, I investigate first = do my homework. Case in point: I read ed blogs for years before starting to post comments.
Second, when someone asserts they “don’t understand” something then makes a damning assertion—contradicted by the very presence of their comment on that disreputable platform called “blogs”—
I will be charitable and assume that Mr. Marzano is not rereading, and thinking through, his comments.
I hope I haven’t gone quite that far myself, but my choice of words and comments have not always been the most felicitous. So nobody is perfect…
That said, Mr. Marzano should be grateful, and express that explicitly in heartfelt thanks, that the owner of this blog offers him the opportunity to directly respond to what he asserts is misinformation.
A word to the wise: a lot of blogs don’t give people that opportunity.
That’s the way I see it…
But then, what do I know? I am just your run-of-the-mill neighborhood public school krazy TA that believes in a “better education for all.”
😎
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I would like to add – Diane Ravitch’s blog is really one of the best out there on the internet. It is well run, it is very fair, the contributers are intelligent and informed, it is open to a wide variety of viewpoints as long as the post is respectful. Any debate on this blog brings with it lots of questions, lots of reasonings, lots of further thinking…
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forgive me for beating a long dead horse but some may not have seen this in their own state (yet)
DiMasi’s small-time. The big loot’s in education
The Lowell Sun
Sal DiMasi chose the wrong profession. Instead of politics, he should have gone into the education racket.
Now the former speaker of the Massachusetts House, who was so broke he couldn’t even pay off some $50,000 in credit-card debt, is facing 20 years in prison after being convicted of accepting some $65,000 in kickbacks for getting the $17 million Cognos software contract, later rescinded, through state government.
That $50,000 credit-card debt that DiMasi carried around — plus a couple of second mortgages — barely comes to walking-around money for the high rollers in the education administration racket, particularly one John B. Barranco and his friends.
Barranco, 59, former executive director of both the taxpayer-supported Merrimack Special Education Collaborative and the nonprofit Merrimack Education Center…. stuck it to the taxpayer, in more ways than one.
The Merrimack Collaborative, a governmental education agency, was established to allow school districts in the Merrimack Valley to pool resources in order to lower the cost of educating students with severe physical and mental disabilities as well as students with behavioral and medical challenges.
While the hapless DiMasi racked up thousands of dollars of debt for largely “recreational purposes” — travel, clothing, cable-television bills, phone bills and
Fast Lane charges — Barranco, according to Inspector General Gregory Sullivan, used his corporate credit card “to purchase more than $50,000 in goods and services that appear to be personal in nature or have no apparent relationship to the activities and mission of the nonprofit.”
Bad as the alleged credit-card abuse appears to be, the pay and bonuses that Barranco gave out to his girlfriend and to his friends is absolutely mind- boggling, particularly when you consider that the mission of the two organizations was to provide services” [to special education students with the most severe types of disability.]
“While paying himself up to $500,000 a year,
including bonuses, Barranco also collected a $157,000-a-year pension from the Massachusetts Teachers’ Retirement System. He also provided a lavish salary and bonuses for his live-in girlfriend and saw to it that repairs to her home,
where he lived for eight years, were paid by MEC.
Barranco also hired several former board members — all retired area public-school superintendents, and all connected to Barranco in an old-boy network — to well-paying jobs that entitled them to bonus payments as well.
To add insult to injury, Barranco also allegedly put Cognos lobbyist Richard McDonough, who was convicted along with DiMasi, on his state payroll in a phony, make-believe job so that McDonough could qualify for a state pension. While McDonough averaged a salary of $96,115 in the three years he “worked” for Barranco, he also operated his lobbying firm, McDonough Associates, on Beacon Hill.
“It was literally a no-show job,” Sullivan said.
U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz, upon the conviction of DiMasi and McDonough on corruption charges,
said she had delivered a blow to the “culture of corruption” at the Statehouse. Perhaps she has. But you wouldn’t know it reading the inspector general’s report.
Sal, you look small. Forget politics. You should have become an education administrator. That’s where the real money is. What a racket.
Peter Lucas’ political column appears Tuesday and Friday. Email him at plucas@lowellsun.com.
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This expose is a great example of why we need professional journalists at the local level. Thanks Silicon Valley for recklessly destroying (oh, I mean “fruitfully disrupting”) America’s institutions of journalism. Investigative journalism should not be left to chance, or to volunteers, or to paupers. It’s a crucial institution that needs to be safeguarded.
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I must admit, I’m enjoying all this “piling on” on Marzano and Danielson. Teachers are tired of school district administrators buying the programs–wholesale–from these (and other) education consultants who sweep into districts, sell their programs with their registered trademarks–which always including thin, square, dumb, and extremely colorful “how to” books passed out at in-services like candy–promising if the districts just follow their strategies, their schools will dramatically improve. From standards-based grading, to declaring that no student can ever make less than 50% on any assignment–ever, from allowing infinite do-overs on tests, from 80% formative to 20% summative, etc., yada, yada, yada…It’s really tiresome and discouraging to teachers who are always being told the Next Big Program will save us, and it never does. It does, however, line the pockets of these consultants who have influenced education practices as least as much, if not more, as the “reformers” have.
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Click to access 20120927-ma-early-learning-proposal-v11.pdf
go to page 11 for her cost summary; don’t bother with the “logic model’….
Did anyone ask the libraries about this? could the funds be better spent in the schools or the library programs?
These hyper-marketing “data” gathering gimmicks always get me.. This is the individual who says there is no need to get parent to sign forms because they gave an electronic signature when they signed in for the child to get a free “AP”for hand held device etc.
And, the award/contract was given out through the state early childhood (not the DESE)…
What I am might assume is the State of MI suggested that schools in MI would sign on to Marzano and then the Emergency Manager (if there was one in place at that time) just rubber stamped it because we can always “assume the state commissioners have the best judgment on thee things”
Even though the board for this Massachusetts program said they did not see the educational value in the “stuff” the person in charge at the state level just automatically went forward with a unilateral decision (she is now gone)
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So, Dr. Marzano, you receive only a “modest” fee for your speaking engagements. Got it. But LSI, who must have paid you for your “intellectual property,” happens to be located in the very same place as your Learning Sciences Marzano Center.
Fine, Doc. You don’t make millions, but the company WITH YOUR NAME ON IT does! Surely some of that comes your way, right?
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Many years ago (maybe 12 or so?), when my school district first directed us to Marzano’s teaching strategies (before his iobservation program), I googled him. As I recall, he had a substitute teacher position for a couple of years in New York and then went out west to a small private school where he served as a department chair over a department of six teachers for two years. At the time, I thought his experience in teaching was very short and weak. Several years later I attended a conference in Ft Lauderdale where he was a speaker. He still had not developed his evaluation program. At that time, he said he had developed a program for education majors to see what made experienced teachers good teachers. He also mentioned that the best teacher he had ever observed broke all the rules. He also mentioned his own experience and said he was not a very good teacher, implying that he would have been much better had he had the information he was giving us. Next thing I know, he is making huge amounts of money from districts who were using his teacher training program as a system wide evaluation program requiring teachers to jump through dozens of hoops to prove they were effective. I never thought his program had much merit as an evaluation program as it rewarded mediocrity rather than creativity and innovation. I retired a year early because I could no longer stomach the iobservation, i.e. Big Brother, mentality.
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Robert Marzano:
What is your response to this multi-part review, http://edinsanity.com/2009/06/02/marzano_part1/ of your study of the effects of using interactive white boards (IWB) on “academic achievement”?
As one who is not totally enthralled with technology, hell I don’t own a cell phone, I understand you not being comfortable with “blogs” but in this case it’s easy. Just click on the link above and when the site appears read what’s there then click on the Part II link on that page. As each successive page appears, read and then click on the next part to continue reading.
I am very interested in your thoughts on that critique of your IWB study.
TIA,
Duane
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I’m crying a river for Marzano.
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The Marzano rubric has produced more dog-and-pony shows than the Ringling Brothers. It has ZERO credibility with every seasoned veteran I have ever talked to.
Your rubric gives no credit for content expertise or creative pedagogy or program quality. End of (sad) story.
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“let me say again: it is absolutely false that I have a 6 million dollar contract with DPS. You will be receiving proof of this shortly from LSI.”
Wait, from reading the above replies, is it true that LSI is at the same address as Marzano’s company? Is Mr. Marzano trying to argue that Emily’s post is “false” because the contract isn’t with him as an individual but with one of the companies he is CLOSELY associated with? (Or even founded himself?) Located at the exact same address as his own?
If that is the case, it would be so typical of the way so-called “reformers” always need to mislead (lie) because they don’t trust the public with the facts.
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“They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies.”
Is he talking about blogs or his books?
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Applause.
I have just reviewed again the one size fits all checklists from Marzano and have the same opinion of them as those from Danielson.
I am certain that these instruments of surveillance are seriously draining school budgets in addition misrepresenting their validity, reliability, and relevance for every subject, and every grade, and every teaching context. Snake oil.
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I am bewildered. Why would a purportedly rational Marzano contact the most read education blog to have a private conversation? Higher order thinking skills are not required to present one’s teaching experience. I would hope that the reliability and validity of his products are held to the same standard.
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“They seem to be a venue for anyone to say anything they want without verification and without consequence for inaccuracies.””
Is he talking about blogs or his books? 😉
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“She had my e-mail and there was certainly a tacit invitation for her to respond to me directly.”
Why not explicit, clear, unequivicol?
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She was already accused of slander. She was probably advised not to correspond with him.
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I don’t know Dr. Marzano personally. But I am familiar with the Marzano evaluation system as it has been practiced by the School District of Palm Beach County, FL. We’re told that the Marzano evaluation system is based on research of best practices of teachers. But we are teachers also. And we’re in the classroom, right now, not some time long ago. And we too are researchers into what works and what doesn’t work for teaching and learning in our classrooms. But apparently the research of living, breathing teachers doesn’t count. Only those in the distant past (even 20 years ago is a long time, given the current pace of things). Here’s a School Board talk I gave about how Marzano is practiced in our school district:
https://youtu.be/hG1Z06tOqNk
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Andy, in the video you talk about how Marzano dictates intensive discussion of the lesson’s goal –which eats up time that should be devoted to actually teaching content. Do you think this fixation on learning goals has had a net positive or negative effect on kids’ learning?
You also talk about Marzano’s rubric categorizing teachers as “Innovating” or “Applying”. Do you think these rubrics have any validity, or might they just be the fruit of a putative expert’s derriere? Do you think the terminology “innovative” and “applying” are apt descriptions of teachers’ ability levels, or just pretentious synonyms for “good” and “not-so-good”?
Do you know any teacher who got better by following Marzano? Do you know any who got worse?
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Here are some blog entries challenging Mr. Marzano’s very lucrative program. Some are well-researched. Many debunk his claims about his ‘research’. Interesting to read the perspective of someone who isn’t invested in jumping on the bandwagon and going along to get along. . . .
A Deeper Look at Marzano
http://thethots.com/2015/08/29/a-deeper-look-at-marzano/
Venting My Cynicism: Marzano’s Database
http://education.modernsense.net/2012/10/marzanos-database.html
Marzano’s Causal Evaluation System
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/on_performance/2011/06/marzanos_causal_evaluation_system.html
The Withering Apple
http://thewitheringapple.com/tag/robert-marzano/
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Thanks, Chris… I started with the Edweek article here is a statement from that source: ” Effect sizes are a legitimate thing, but Marzano is misconstruing their meaning to imply that whenever fewer than 100% of students are below standard, the solution is to force teachers to implement strategy after strategy.
Indeed, obedience is the dark side of this evaluation framework. When superintendents and principals become convinced that they can “cause” higher levels of learning by mandating Marzano’s favorite practices, they stop paying attention to the professional growth of teachers, and start policing.”
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reported from a university that implemented Hattie’s list of “practices” found in the meta-analysis (Marzano prepared his lists in the similar fashion to Hattie; I think he reported in a McRel report the details.. it seemed to be behind a pay wall even though the price listed was $0 I did not want to enter personal data to print out his lists. They are probably available through earlier McRel publications)
quote:”statistical procedures cannot adequately capture the complexity of the social world (Glass, 2000). Lee Cronbach argued that a reliance on averages reduces the social ‘terrain’ to a ‘featureless, flat, with no interesting interactions or topography’. To get beyond these issues one of the founders of meta-analysis, Gene Glass, suggests moving closer to the evidence, by amassing archives of raw data via the internet, rather than moving even further away, which Hattie’s synthesis of averages inevitably does. The question thus emerges about the extent to which Hattie’s framework of 43 attributes, even with its vast database, can serve to ‘plot the complex, variegated landscape that most likely underlies [its] crude averages’ (Glass, 2000). In other words, can the attributes – as a basis for ‘intelligent problem-solving’ about teaching and learning – deal effectively with the particularity of the classroom and lead to improved practice that enhances a range of valued outcomes for individual students ?”
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and this is what teachers who have to use the Marzano “stuff” are faced with.
Yes, that’s the Cronbach that David Berliner said hammered validity into his head. (These lists of thousands of practices , like the lists of tens of thousands of objectives in common core)
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thanks Chris in Florida: I pulled out a paragraph from thethots.com that you recommended: …. I think the author at thethots might be referring to “white board” articles and research by Marzano.
“In his research, Marzano used relatively small samples testing separate elements of his model. Because the sample sizes were small, the overall effects of his program were magnified. The primary way in which he conducted his studies was by asking teachers – each with two similar classes – to give their students a pretest and a posttest and gauge their improvement in a percentage. One class was given the experimental variable while the other was not. However, the internal validity of the experiment is questionable. The teachers Marzano used for his research varied by subject, grade level, and state. In addition, there were psychological variables amongst the participants of the study that could have interfered. Examples of psychological variables can be drawn from Marzano’s partnership with Promethean, which had the purpose of examining the effects of interactive whiteboard systems on learning (need I point out one of the reasons behind this study was to sell whiteboards?). There could have been a rivalry between the students belonging to the class that used the technology and those belonging to the class that didn’t, and some students may have tried to purposefully thwart the results out of jealousy. The teachers also knew what results Marzano was looking for, and paid better attention to their teaching and students. As a result, there did not truly exist a dependent variable for comparison. Finally, Marzano used percentiles incorrectly. Percentages are not the same as percentiles. Marzano used bell curves to obtain the value of the percentile gains he claims. However, this does not work because the scores of the dependent variables (the performance of the student) are not normally distributed (this is a statistical term that I encourage you to read more in depth on).”
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This blog is a public forum Mr. Marzano and all opinions are respected so long as they are respectful of others. The lionshare of people who contribute to this blog are veteran teachers with years of teaching experience. I myself appreciate a forum that allows the exchange of ideas without having to have a “personal invitation” … private invitation is subject to politics as far as I am concerned. You mention two erroneous facts in regards to you in the article in question, “One was that I had never taught, and the other was that I had a 6 million dollar contract with Detroit Public Schools…” I wonder if you could clarify. 1) Did you teach in a classroom of a public school with appropriate certification and beyond the 5 year period in which teachers typically say are “the first years of teaching”? 2) Does LSI buy your Marzano Program and use your name (in which case I do believe you would be likely to receive some form of payment whether it is via the royalties on materials bought or the use of your name)?
My main problem with the whole Danielson and Marzano thing is that it has become a “one-size-fits-all” on an entire nation of public school teachers. I am an intelligent person who has an area of expertise in my specialization at the masters level as well as an education degree at the masters level. I love working with students and love the challenge of creating and implementing lessons. I have the intelligence to be able to reflect on my practice without the rubrics you and Danielson provide. This is what makes me love my profession… intellectual autonomy. These “how to” rubrics are a hinderance to my practice. And you know that districts are forcing teachers to follow them lock-step!
If your “philosophy” and approach to teaching were something teachers could read if they wanted to (and as a professional educator I do enjoy reading all kinds of education-related research) and if we teachers could decide if we thought it had merit or not, I do not think one teacher would have a problem with this. BUT, you have allowed your ideas to become a sort of gospel that every teacher MUST follow lock-step because you knowingly market it to school districts that are looking for a one size fits all approach and know that you will profit by it if the school district buys into it. You profit by this and know that your word is being forced on many an “unwanting” teacher. Charlotte Danielson knows this too. I went to the Teaching and Learning Conference in DC (its first year when it was free to many teachers). Danielson was asked by a NYC teacher contingency if she was aware that teachers were being unfairly fired on the basis of her rubrics. Her answer was, “This was not my intention and I have no idea about this”. Her kind of response is not good enough! Mr. Marzano, are you aware of the intense dislike of your “approach” by so many teachers forced to follow it lock-step? Do you want teachers to be forced to follow your ideas “lock-step”? If not, do you get into confrontations with school districts that do make teachers follow your ideas to the detriment of their own practice?
How can I improve my practice? I can walk into the classroom of a veteran teacher who has honed his/her craft over years and “be a fly on the wall” and I can do this for FREE too! I can observe his/her strategies and watch, watch, watch and then debrief with that teacher and ask him/her to come to my classroom and observe for FREE. The students benefit by this because experience counts for something and the school saves a lot of money to boot. Or, I can suffer through an expensive Danielson training and leave with a book and be forced to robotically follow a checklist of “best practices” that come at such a high cost to my district and a professional cost to my practice… ideas that are so disconnected.
Sell your program on line and in book stores but not to school districts! And do address the questions put forth on this blog. But please do not berate Diane Ravitch for publishing this article or the author who wrote it. You do have a chance to refute what was said in the article with concrete answers (and certainly addressing the valid issues put forth by many who added comments). And… since you posted here, you should respond to some of the comments.
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Hattie used a similar process to come up with his list of “researched” practices …. looks like Missouri created an evaluation system from Hattie’s list of his own preferred practices (based on meta-analysis)….https://dese.mo.gov/sites/default/files/10-Research-ProvenPracticesHattie.pdf Any idea if that is in place? still working? any results or consequences? probably a competitor to Marzano’s system of “evaluation” so Missouri didn’t buy the Marzano products….
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Kelwyn Smythe says teachers and principals need to call “76 Trombones” to Hattie’s “egregious errors… ” In this paragraph you can substitute Marzano for Hattie because they use the same methods …
“Ministers of education or their equivalent in nearly all Western countries regularly pronounce, sometimes mysteriously, sometimes boldly, they have special knowledge from a source not always identified, that children’s socio-economic circumstances are of little moment in education achievement – that source is the voice of Hattie or his quantitative local equivalent or, increasingly, both. Sometimes Hattie breaks away from the neoliberal message but this is often just tactical, serving to maintain a degree of credibility with teachers while making no dent in government and bureaucratic faith in him. Indeed, he is of more value to governments and bureaucracies if he can bring along with him a significant number of the school community.”
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Marzano is the quantitate local equivalent…
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Now that Bob Marzano has weighed in, perhaps he can clear some things up.
Bob,
1. How much public school teaching experience do you really have? There’s a year referenced in New York schools? Was that student teaching, or was that a full year in a public school? And what about those three years in an all-boys Catholic school…why did you leave teaching?
2. You say that you have no contract with the Detroit schools. In your comment here you say this: “To imply that I have a large contract with a district in financial difficulties certainly paints an inaccurate and unfair picture of me.”
Yet, Learning Sciences International does – according to you – own “much” of your “intellectual property.”
And Emily Talmadge writes that you told her this about Learning Sciences International: “I can’t imagine that they received a $6,000,000 contract, but if they did, such money does come back to me.”
Okay, so YOU don’t have the contract, but Learning Sciences does. And guess what? YOU are listed as “the executive director of Learning Sciences Marzano Center for Teacher and Leader Evaluation.”
Don’t you make a fair chunk of money off of that contract? And if so, aren’t you sort of just play a game of semantics?
3. There has been criticism that some of your research (on homework for young kids, on interactive white boards) has been grossly misrepresented. Would you agree or disagree with that, and why?
4. A wide array of research – including your own – finds that most of the factors related to student achievement are not under the teacher’s control. In fact, the direct effect of the teacher is a very small portion of the total variance in student achievement scores, is it not? If that’s the case, then why are schools spending so much time and energy – and money – on your programs?
5. At the Learning Sciences International website, under “Who We Are,” there are no names listed. But it does say they engage in a “partnership with you for the “Marzano Teacher Evaluation Model, the Marzano School Leadership Evaluation Model, and the Marzano District Leader Evaluation Model” and for the “Learning Sciences Marzano Center Essential Strategies for Achieving Rigor.”
In addition, Learning Sciences touts an annual conference “hosted by Learning Sciences International and world-renowned education researcher Dr. Robert J. Marzano.”
So, in a sense, Learning Sciences is YOU, and YOU are Learning Sciences. How would you describe your “partnership” with Learning Sciences? Describe your financial partnership.
6. The main purpose of the conference referenced above, held last month, was ” to connect administrators and educators with innovative, visionary ways to provide rigorous instruction and prepare students for success in college and the global workplace.”
How does this college, workforce readiness, and global competitiveness stuff differ from the Common Core?
I’d very much like to see your response.
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Where is the evidence that Marzano’s or Danielson’s methods actually improve student outcomes? I recently attended a conference put on by Marzano and he spent most of the day talking about what was behind his paywall.
I learned one thing at the conference.. there is money to be made, lot’s of money.
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Great leader in academia. Robert Marzano is one of the best!!!
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Is Marzano a jesus freak along with his demi-god status as education bolviator??
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Or does my sarcasmometer need adjusting?
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Dr. Marzano: This is a top-down, authoritarian, in your face, patronizing, unscientific, punitive, approach to evaluating teachers and you are making a lot of money off of it—and draning resources from budget-strapped districts. Your framework does not work for early childhood education and is developmentally inappropriate for Kinder and first grade. And ditto for K-1 English Language Learners. I know because I have been teaching K-1 for 15 years and have over 20 years working i early childhood education. Your repetitive, direct instruction, paper-and-pencil strategies (for example) in vocabulary word development is probably OK for 3-5th grade students but there is no, none, zilch evidence that this is how young children learn.
In fact, come spend a day in my classroom and I will show you how bored, restless and frustrated my students get when I try to teach Tier 2 vocabulary words to students that don’t even know English well. What a joke the whole system is. There are tried and true ways to teach English in early childhood education. And drone-infused-robotic-every-child-is-the-same-approach is stifling and harmful to children.
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this was the experience of my colleague visiting a 2nd grade classroom to evaluate a student teacher candidate from one of the teacher education colleges in Greater Boston: “I know you are required to teach these words this way but do you know it is not appropriate for 2nd grade?” and they went into details as to why…
restless and frustrated my students get when I try to teach Tier 2 vocabulary words to students that don’t even know English well. What a joke the whole system is.
jeanhaverhill@aol.com
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Marzano taught for four years in the 70s. I saw his CV and it shows that he is a well renowned researcher, but he does not have near the experience be called a veteran teacher.
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Help!! Marzano has found his way to Australia and my dictator Principal, who worships at the feet of the newest, latest, quick-fix, one-size-fits-all snake-oil salesman, loves Marzano. It fits in with her need to control everything at the school and now, by making teachers do Marzano Art & Science of Teaching, she is able to ‘police’ us by enforcing compliance to using ASOT.
My own son attends the same school where I teach and he has said that the Marzano Proficiency Scales and Learning Goals do not help him or any other student in the class. My son, quite astutely, has commented that students don’t really listen any more when the teachers talk about the learning goals and proficiency scales!
I must admit that I am finding it hard to continue teaching with this load crock sh*t that is being forced upon us. At no time were the teachers in the school involved in the implementation of this ‘paint-by-numbers’ framework.
I must admit, that one thing I have noticed about Mr Mazano, is that when his highly suspect research is questioned, rather than defend his research with evidence, he seems to personally attack his detractors! I think this in itself is evidence that his research is suspect and can not be defended.
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A Perspective from those of us who have taught longer than a beginning teacher (4 years)!
I have taught in FL between 1997-2021.
Marzano is wrong and living in a fantasy land much like Mayberry, RFD (rural free delivery)! I wish we all could live there in this perfect world!
(1) ESE/ESOL Populations, Multiple Preps, & Class Size
Observations:
How is it possible to use a one size fits all (Marzano) observational protocol when classroom environments differ substantially? For example, a teacher who has 37 students per period, with students who have only been in the country for one week to a few months, is vastly different from a teacher who teaches gifted or regular ed with approximately 12-16 students that are fluent English speakers.
Class Size:
Additionally, there are special education classes with 28 to 30 students with varying learning needs and behavioral issues that are impossible, i.e., ADHD, Downs, EBD, ODD, etc.–no amount of classroom management can cure brain disorders. Let me repeat that…no amount of Marzano classroom management protocols can cure brain disorders.
ESE/ESOL:
Then, there is the paperwork teachers are solely responsible for producing. The district, federal, and state compliance paperwork is mandatory for ESE and ESOL teachers, i.e. specialized lesson plans, extensive planning, IEPs, 504s, accommodation documentation, etc. All of these documents must meet federal and state mandates (LRE).
How does this one size fits all Marzano work with these population?
Teacher Workload:
As an ESE and ESOL teacher, I worked an extra 40 hours each week just to keep pace with the demands, i.e., IEPs, staffing meetings, principal meetings, grade level meetings, department meetings, parent/teacher conferences, caseload meetings, district training, department training, etc.
I taught multiple grade-level preps for both ESE and ESOL with mixed classes each year (6th, 7th, 8th) & (9th, 10th, 11th, 12th) in secondary education. I also taught multiple content-area preps (i.e., earth space science (10th), integrated science (12th), intensive reading (6th, 7th, 8th) & (10th & 11th), developmental language arts through ESOL) each year.
I’ve spent many a late night while my regular ed peers darted out on time just as students were dismissed. I left these 2 fields and now I can dart out and have a normal life, normal assessments, and normal evaluations, but no one is speaking for those I left in the trenches. They are still being judged according to the same once size fits all criteria as regular ed teachers.
(2) Administrator Observational Protocols by Marzano–Where is it?
Why isn’t there an assessment protocol for principals and assistant principals for teachers?
Inexperienced Admin:
How do you cope with the fact that you’ve had administrators who were not model teachers or may not have taught at all? I find it difficult to understand how an administrator who has little to no classroom or teaching experience is capable of assessing teachers.
Thus far, I have had principals who were former coaches, deans, lawyers, college professors, artist, soldiers, etc. respectively. I have also had principals, with less than stellar teaching credentials, that were former teachers. For example, I had a former colleague (a former coach turned classroom teacher) who had terrible teaching reviews and honestly, the teacher did not like the classroom nor students.
I had a former dean as a principal who had no clue about educational pedagogy. Are these uncredentialed pseudo-educators actually qualified to assess teachers?
Time Have Changed:
Are principals who have taught a class since the late 70s, 80s, & 90s still qualified to assess teachers in today’s classroom environments? Times have changed is an understatement.
(3) Environment, Title I, Low SES, Dropouts
Again, Marzano was honed in Mayberry RFD. I have taught in several Title I schools though out the years. Schools that were built in 1926 and are in exactly the same condition as when the kids’ grandmothers attended. I have taught in what has been labeled 3 of the worst schools in the State of Florida.
This one size fits all Marzano method does not work with these populations, ESE, ESOL, low SES, homeless youths, migrant youths, rural youth, inner city youth, dropouts, etc.
Many teachers around the country have echoed the follow sentiment:
Marzano is for the district and not the kids. So, why am I paying $Millions for model that has no impact on the successful outcomes of my kids?
(4) Conclusion–Career Teacher (RESPECT)
Ask the people who are actually doing the hard work everyday–career teachers.
Update–On May 28, 2021 I resigned my teaching position to escape Marzano, just like thousands of other FL teachers. Marzano’s one size fits all does not fit my student populations and the data is there for review–CCSS vs. B.E.S.T.
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Keep speaking up, Daphne! Make life uncomfortable for the incompetents who run the show.
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