EduShyster interviewed Seth Rau, a prominent young reformer in Nevada, about the Silver State’s “universal choice” or “Education Savings Account” program, which gives every student $5,700 to spend in the school of their choice.
Rau is policy director for the reform organization “Nevada Succeeds.” He is an alum of Teach for America; he taught for two years in a charter school. The conservative Thomas B. Fordham named him the “Wisest Wonk” in the nation for a paper in which he said that schools should be regulated lightly, like brothels in Nevada.
Despite his sterling reform bona fides, Rau is not your typical reformer. He does not celebrate the great successes of charters and vouchers. He is honest about the flaws of both, including the ESA that was recently adopted in Nevada.
EduShyster asked where should a student with a backpack full of $5,700 go to school.
He answered that the charters in Nevada were nothing to brag about:
In Nevada, the miracle of the high-performing seats that you’re so familiar with in Massachusetts never happened. For the most part our district charter schools are strongly underperforming. There’s also been a heavy reliance on virtual charter schools. More than a quarter of the students who attend charters attend virtual schools, which have been a disaster for many kids. For example, Nevada Virtual Academy was the largest charter school in the state and had a 32.5% graduation rate in 2011-2012.
The charter sector is growing, he said, especially in suburbs where students are high-performing. The charter scores are rising because “they’re not serving students who are actually in poverty.”
When EduShyster asks about access to private schools, Rau says that those schools are for the children of the 1%. So who will benefit from the ESA-style vouchers?
Rau answers:
I’ve heard people extolling Education Savings Accounts, saying that this is going to be the great solution to poverty, but equity is not the goal of the ESA. This bill will benefit middle class and upper middle class constituencies….That’s going to be the majority of people who use the ESA program. They’ll come from our limited middle class or upper middle class who are dissatisfied with the school district or with charters for one reason or another.
I am not ready to nominate Rau to the honor roll yet, as I save that honor for champions of public education, but I happily name him the “Wisest Wonk” of the reform movement for his willingness to tell the truth about the poor performance of charters and to admit that the ESA (vouchers) won’t help the majority of poor kids. If other reformers owned up to basic facts as Rau does, we would have a different conversation about education in this country.

Then why does he still support Charters and vouchers?
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Never experienced down and out POVERTY with no relief in sight?
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Because that’s what Nevada Succeeds is all about Lloyd. Seth is their executive director.
Some info on Nevada Succeeds:
http://nevadasucceeds.org/board-of-directors/
Not an educator on the board and Gates is a sponsor. They believe the crisis in NV is caused by 2 things, one of them broken teachers. The ESA (vouchers) will be an advantage only to those already privileged.
Thank you Diane and Edushyster for bringing Nevada’s crisis to national attention, and for getting Rau to tell the truth. You are amazing!
I think Seth is going to take some heat from his people for letting the cat out of the bag.
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My Kids,
I read recently that Nevada has the worst performing charters in the nation. What studies have been conducted or data released?
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I do not believe that we actually have the data, at least not data that is reputable within our own state. This is why we union members I hope to see a research department develop within our union. Currently charter schools have been “supported” because they were only public charter schools. I dunno of the Edison charter schools that had continued to fail and regained funding after the first contract came up with the school board.
We have a school district that is 3/4 of the state, and we are under immediate fire. I say that because of the top 10 largest districts, we really didn’t hit the radar like we should have in comparison to the struggles we see and other urban districts.
The climate has changed to what we know nationally and we need to adjust to that change accordingly here, immediately.
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Nevada kids suffer from something called “transience,” and it is much higher in that state than virtually everywhere else in the country. The teachers and even the school districts, as corrupt as those like Washoe County SD are, can do nothing to change that. There are very few private schools in Nevada compared to say, the northeastern United States. Charters, however, are a much bigger problem and have been around for about 20 years there. I suspect this law really isn’t about parents having “choice” to attend the relatively few private schools in the state as it is about giving handouts to people who already have kids in those schools.
I lived in the state for many years, taught there, and have some kind of inkling of what education is like there.
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So this slip is similar to the one from that Stanford professor who runs the CREDO center who said market based education reforms did not work in education.
No problem for the corporate RheeFormers. They’ll just spend more money on propaganda to confuse and misdirect people and help them forget. Meanwhile. Seth will probably be called to the Gates woodshed for a verbal lashing that will include threats of losing his job if he lets his lips loose again.
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Which reformers don’t acknowledge that that there are lousy charters and lousy charter authorizers? Most even acknowledge that online charters shouldn’t exist. Most want lousy authorizers and bad state charter laws to go away. And most acknowledge that those pushing for vouchers are in it to get their own costs lowered, though there are notable exceptions. Finally, most agree that taking an economically disadvantaged kid who is behind and placing him or her in a private school is not in and of itself a solution.
Yes, it’s refreshing to hear someone say these things out loud, but it’s hardly an anomaly. Perhaps you think so because you lump all reformers together and so frequently “argue” with straw men of your own construction.
Rau can still believe in these concepts while challenging their execution. It’s what engaged, conscientious people should do. I wish there were more on the traditional district education side who can believe in that concept but acknowledge a lot of lousy execution there as well.
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I could potentially support charters if they were, in fact, being innovative in ways that public schools can’t and getting better outcomes for it. But I haven’t seen an example of that yet, unless you count the part about creaming off the easiest to educate students and then bragging about the superior test results. Could you give me an example of how charters are doing things that public schools can’t and how they’re getting great results from doing so? And, hey, I’ll even let you use test scores as your metric, even though I don’t think such scores mean a hill of beans.
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Sure. Almost every high performing charter in the country has a longer school day and school year, typically resulting in more than 60% more teaching and learning time. And results in NYC and the urban CREDO studies clearly show the results for anyone willing to look at the data objectively.
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Sorry, fail. Lots of public schools have gone to longer school days and longer school years too. Furthermore, research shows that neither one has an effect, except on a small handful of the very poorest students (the ones most likely not to be in charters).
Any others?
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Dienne,
Can you provide some data? The few I’ve seen that show that the results don’t justify the cost aren’t in any way controlled for how the school day is restructured and whether the extra time includes more instructional time and of what quality.
There are lots of ways to add to the school day without adding to learning.
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What happens when the oligarchs and corporations pull their funding from charter schools i.e. Fordham, sponsor of charter schools in Ohio?
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BTW, John, every “high-performing charter” also has a selective student body, consisting only of those who (a) had parents who were able to navigate the application system) and (b) can put up with the “no-excuses” power and control and drill-and-kill test prep methods used at those schools. So we don’t know if whatever meager improvement there is in test scores is a result of the longer day or the creaming effect. I suspect the latter.
And, again, some public schools have gone to a longer day, most notably Chicago Public Schools which is well-unionized. The CTU didn’t, incidentally, outright object to the longer day, but they did want to know (a) what is the theoretical and research-based underpining for such decision, (b) what is said longer day going to be used for and how is it going to be structured and (c) how are teachers going to get paid for the increased workload? I suppose you find teachers wanting to get paid more for more work “obstructionist”, but generally it is fair to increase compensation when responsibilities are increased, don’t you think?
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Dienne,
“Navigating the application system” is hardly a high barrier. Ours is one page, and our district has fought any notion of a uniform application process to district and charter schools. In fact, I believe you have to physically go to the district school to sign up, so that’s a higher barrier. I acknowledge that is unlikely that extremely poor, transient, and homeless populations apply to charters, but that fact does not make up for the difference in achievement (which is not meager).
Also, studies like the Boston one have disproved this by comparing outcomes of lottery “losers” to lottery “winners”; both with same parental motivation and support.
I know little about CPS re longer school day, but I agree that teachers should be paid more for more time.
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John,
The Boston charter study compared only charters that were oversubscribed and conducted a lottery. It did not include the charters that few students chose.
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BTW, John, do you support this method of raising test scores: http://edushyster.com/i-am-not-tom-brady/#comment-28578 ?
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John, the problem is that the definition of “lousy charter” does NOT include charters that have outrageously high suspension and attrition rates for poor kids and very low suspension and attrition rates for affluent students whose parents are college educated. I have yet to see any criticism of those schools from the pro-charter movement. Instead they are widely admired and we are told they are “model” charter schools and receive a disproportionate share of private money too.
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Brooklynparent,
I agree that politicians frequently gloss over the fact that you can’t look at results without looking at attrition, and I understand why that is very frustrating for critics. It’s actually frustrating for high performing charters as well.
The best charters acknowledge attrition data and are working to minimize it. An example is the KIPP Mathematica study that considers any student who ever attended a KIPP school to be in the “treatment” group and still finds significant growth vs. the control group.
Also, attrition can be due to things like not practicing social promotion. It still makes the scores not comparable with a school without that attrition, but it isn’t due to actively removing students.
Finally, lots of attrition from district schools is hidden due to backfilling, but exposed in charters because many do not. It even wouldn’t be unfair to consider every kid in a charter as being attrition from the district school that they opted not to attend.
I’m curious about your assertion about different suspension and attrition rates between affluent vs.non-affluent students. Do you mean in the same school or group of schools? If you’re talking across districts, the same is certainly true of district schools in affluent areas vs. urban areas. Please share some data.
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John,
We know from your many comments that you are a fan of charter schools. As you know, one of the biggest complaint about charters is that they cherry pick their students. The way to allay this suspicion would be for a chain (like KIPP) to take over an entire district, instead of having a mix of many charters, a few high-performing (the best cherry pickers?), and most low-performing. Charters can put this doubt to rest if they took over every single school and took responsibility for every student. Let them show the world that they have a method that can be scaled up. Our goal–that is, America’s goal–is education for all, not education for some. Why don’t you try to persuade KIPP or one of the other well-funded charters to take the challenge.
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Diane,
I’m a fan of the concept of charters (building level control and flexibility in exchange for accountability) and I am a fan of many individual charter schools. I’m also a fan of many neighborhood district schools, including the one that my children go to.
Frankly, I don’t think there is an objective measure that you could see that would cause you to embrace the concept since you are clearly against it philosophically. You won’t acknowledge that charter performance is going up every year. You won’t acknowledge successes like NYC and the CREDO urban charter study. You won’t acknowledge studies that control for your alleged cherry picking, nor are you critical about the lack of hard data regarding many of your criticisms. For example, charter schools are very disproportionately included in lists of top high schools in the country. (http://www.publiccharters.org/2014/09/hs-rankings/) Do you maintain that this is cherry picking, or is it media conspiracy? Shouldn’t those who truly care about public education be looking at this in detail?
So, charters will continue to enroll more and more students, all by choice. Our overall performance will continue to improve, and we will continue to get better at policing our ranks to weed out low performers and dishonest operators. Meanwhile, critics will continue to raise the bar of “success” in order to rationalize away their performance and the implications for district schools. It is right and appropriate to question results, but there are few sources of objective criticism.
As for taking over a district… You probably disagree, but I think mayoral control in NYC has resulted in huge improvements vs. the system that was in place before that, but look how long that has taken so far and what political will it required. I don’t think any charter organization is mature enough yet to take on even a moderately sized urban district by themselves, but I do think that day could come. But, I think your point is rhetorical because you would be on the front lines fighting this if ever stood a chance of becoming reality, true?
Also, I don’t think charters exist to take over public education. I think they exist to demonstrate what’s possible in order to push public education into doing better by students. In fact, the proliferation of charters (again remember parents are choosing them) is very much due to the failure of neighborhood schools to change.
Meanwhile, let’s watch NOLA and Camden. Or can we even agree that the baseline in both places was/is horrendous?
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Wow, what a shock. Charters are heavily represented in a ranking system developed by charter supporters. Very convincing.
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Ah, almost missed this: “In fact, the proliferation of charters (again remember parents are choosing them)….”
Do you know why parents are choosing them, John? Might it have to do with the fact that people like Rahm Emanuel are closing public schools left and right and defunding the ones remaining so that charters are the only possible option left? It’s sort of like how I “chose” to bank at Chase – they bought out Bank One which bought out First Chicago.
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Dienne,
Yes, there are a few places (Chicago?, Newark?) where some district schools have been closed over parent objections and the charter that a student is in might not have been the parent’s first choice. But, the majority of charter students are in their schools by choice, and the exceptions don’t make the rule.
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Try, “pretty much every urban area”.
As far as the non-urban areas where parents are choosing charters, I’d be interested to know how often that is a matter of getting their kids away from “those” kids.
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Dienne,
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that “pretty much every urban area” does not have plenty of non-charter choices.
In my (relatively small) urban area, “those kids” are the ones at the charters. Parents of means who want to get away from “those kids” just move out.
I personally support charters where they are an option of choice vs. poor district schools. Suburban charters are rarely that, nor are charters where there are no district options.
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It’s funny that you mention NOLA above but don’t count it as a place where parents “choose” charters because that’s the only choice. Same with all of these new “achievement” districts that GOP governors are now so fond of. You also forgot Detroit and Philly. And that whole district in Michigan that was taken over by a charter that subsequently left with its tail between its legs because it couldn’t turn a profit.
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Dienne: save your gunpowder. Among others, this is a grossly ineffective straw man argument:
“Rau can still believe in these concepts while challenging their execution. It’s what engaged, conscientious people should do. I wish there were more on the traditional district education side who can believe in that concept but acknowledge a lot of lousy execution there as well.”
No, it is precisely those that support public education that are the strongest advocates for a “better education for all” and the fiercest critics of ANY school or educational model that doesn’t ensure that. For a sampling of same: just go back over this blog and its threads since its founding in late April 2012.
*I will just use myself. I have given concrete examples of the same kind of massaged and tortured stats used at the HS I worked at that are employed by the rheephormsters as they trot forth the [on paper] numerical miracles of New Orleans and other charter/privatization wonders. And let’s not forget Campbell’s Law, shall we?*
BrooklynParent: just so! That is what the heavyweights and enablers and enforcers of the so-called “education reform” movement bray from the rooftops. Quite literally, they are furiously peddling failure on an ever-increasing scale but doing so in large part by manufacturing success stories out of twisted definitions and calculated misunderstandings—all in the interest of $tudent $ucce$$.
Lastly, more [open and disguised] test prep does not genuine teaching and learning make.
Except when defending corporate education reform. Then it’s all about creating “little test-taking machines.”
Link: http://nymag.com/nymag/features/65614/index3.html
😎
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KrazyTA,
I’ve been reading this blog for a long time. It’s pretty rare to see a post by someone acknowledging lousy execution on their own part or on the part of their peers. I’ve said many times that there are lousy charter schools, but I rarely see anyone acknowledging the existence of lousy district schools or school districts.
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“It’s pretty rare to see a post by someone acknowledging lousy execution on their own part or on the part of their peers.”
I know I’m pretty rare in that there is only one me-ha ha! But to be serious, I (and many others) have been condemning the many educational malpractices that occur in the public schools that are pointed out on this blog since I first started posting in May ’12 when I first heard that the “enemy” of public schools had her own blog. Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised to read a “different Diane” than I was expecting and that she has even evolved further away (although not as much as I would like to see) from those educational malpractices that she had staunchly supported prior. And if you get a chance to meet and talk with her, just as with many others who post here (thinking NPE conferences), you’ll see that she and they really do care about “a better education for all”, not just a select few and certainly not for a select few to make huge profits off the backs of the most innocent, the students.
Many of those educational malpractices are rooted in a fundamental fallacy in epistemological and ontological thinking: That the teaching and learning process can be measured. And then through that supposed measurement the teaching and learning process can be standardized and assessed according to that standardization. Many of the multitudinous battles, conflicts, disagreements in policy and procedures result from that one simple false concept-that the teaching and learning process can be “measured”.
As much as some of us try to “get the word out” about that fallacy and the many negative consequences for the students, and by extension the teachers, far too many teachers and administrators (and policy wonks and politicians) refuse to listen the voices of reason, of rationo-logical thought and refuse to resist the nefarious educational malpractices that are mandated from the feds down to the state level departments of ed to district administrators through the teachers and ultimately harming many students.
Those teachers and administrators are what I call GAGA*ers, equivalent to the average Hans and Hildegard of the Third Reich who chose to silently and efficiently implement social policies that were devastating to many of the most innocent and vulnerable of society. While I jest about the GAGAers (see below) as a way to hopefully wake them up to the devastation they are bringing on the vulnerable and innocent students, the harm they cause is indeed deadly to the spirit, soul, mind of those innocents through the implementation of sorting and separating devices that are the result of THE fundamental fallacy of “measuring the teaching and learning process”.
Throw on top of that the desire of the few avaricious bastards who want to destroy and privatize the public education realm using lies, deceits, propaganda, non-public charters and voucher and tax schemes and one has a perfect maelstrom of insanity disguised as “choice”. I have no problem with “choice” per se as long as those who want to provide a privatized education do so without any public school monies, any TIF, any public resources etc. . . . Let those charter, private and/or religious schools go ahead and compete in that supposed vaunted free market of schooling in America and let the chips fall where they may. But in the meantime the public schools should continue to do their constitutional mandates and provide appropriate public schooling FOR ALL CHILDREN, not the select few.
Going Along to Get Along (GAGA): Nefarious practice of most educators who implement the edudeformers agenda even though the educators know that those educational malpractices will cause harm to the students and defile the teaching and learning process. The members of the GAGA gang are destined to be greeted by the Karmic Gods of Retribution upon their passing from this realm.
Karmic Gods of Retribution: Those ethereal beings specifically evolved to construct the 21st level in Dante’s Hell. The 21st level signifies the combination of the 4th (greed), 8th (fraud) and 9th (treachery) levels into one mega level reserved especially for the edudeformers and those, who, knowing the negative consequences of the edudeformers agenda, willing implemented it so as to go along to get along. The Karmic Gods of Retribution also personally escort these poor souls, upon their physical death, to the 21st level unless they enlighten themselves, a la one D. Ravitch, to the evil and harm they have caused so many innocent children, and repent and fight against their former fellow deformers. There the edudeformers and GAGAers will lie down on a floor of smashed and broken ipads and ebooks curled in a fetal position alternately sucking their thumbs to the bones while listening to two words-Educational Excellence-repeated without pause for eternity.
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Duane,
I’ll read your post in more detail later, but your comment that “I have no problem with “choice” per se as long as those who want to provide a privatized education do so without any public school monies” basically tells me you have no problem with choice for those that can afford it, but do for those who can’t.
Even the fact that you talk about those “who want to provide” as opposed to those “who want to consume” belies your focus on the adults and schools as employers vs. the children and schools as educators.
At least public charter schools are offering choice to low-SES families as opposed to the “choice” that district schools offer: make enough money to move to a better neighborhood or take one for the team.
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I said, hinted at nothing of the sort that you state in the first paragraph. My statement is that if someone wants to start up a school, hey feel free to don’t expect my tax dollars to fund your adventure. My tax dollars already fund, rightly so, the local community public schools which for the most part are fine. Can there be improvements, yes, can/should things change for the better, yes and there are processes that one has to follow to do so.
And again your guestimate of my mental state in your second paragraph is not what it is nor what I wrote, So please don’t put words into my head and mouth.
The only public charter schools are the ones that are administered by the public school district in which they are located. Any other private, whether for profit or not, charter school is not “public” as the charter sector has been declaring in the various courts when they are challenge to open up their operations in the fashion that local community public schools are mandated by law to do.
Your straw man arguments and putting words in my mouth don’t stand up as a valid criticism of what I wrote.
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Duane,
Even your definition of “public” is focused on the adults. State law says the children I have responsibility for are public school students. It also says my school is a public school. Your opinion doesn’t change the fact.
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We’ll see what that definition of “public” is as the various cases are defined but as it is now, the charter supporters have one definition of public and the rest of the public has another. (and again a charter can be public if controlled and administered by the district).
By the way do you have a link to the text of the laws concerning charter for your state that we can look at? At the moment it would appear that there are in essence at least 50 differing versions.
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John, so many charter schools are low-performing that the “choice” is unsavory. I wrote a post about this issue a few weeks ago. I believe in school choice; if you want to go to a religious school, do it on your own dime, not with taxpayers’ money.
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Diane,
I agree 100% about religious schools. If parents want that, it is not up to the public to provide it.
But should it also be a requirement that you pay on your own dime to go to a quality school if your neighborhood school is not?
If you want a luxury suite in the hospital, pay your own way, but if you want quality healthcare, I think you should get it without having to move or pay more. I feel the same way about public education.
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Choose a quality public school, not one that is controlled by a private board of directors and free to make up its own rules about admission, suspensions, expulsions, etc. Charter schools are private schools receiving public money. That does not make them public. If so, then Lockheed and Boeing are public companies.
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It’s not the taking of public money that makes charters public, it’s the law that created them and the fact that they educate public school students.
Is the NYS Thruway private because the Thruway Authority doesn’t have an elected Board? How about SUNY for the same reason?
Which charters “make up their own rules” about admissions? State laws are pretty prescriptive about such things.
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You feel sorry for public school kids in Nevada, now that lawmakers have just decided they have no duty for public education other than issuing vouchers.
What a grand experiment! What bold policy leaders! Gosh, I hope there are no negative effects on the public school kids, which, as usual in ed reform, were completely and utterly ignored. Can we at ;least acknowlege that “choice” systems impact kids in existing public schools, or are we still in this ridiculous denial stage where we won’t admit schools are systems in a given geographical area?
If we’re going to designate public schools as the provider of last resort, the “back up” to the choice system lawmakers prefer, the very least we could do admit that and try to limit the damage. This “agnostic” stuff is pure baloney. Actions have consequences and when they pull one thread in a system the whole system shifts. At least own the potential downside, the “winners and losers” they’re busy creating.
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Can someone explain to me why public school parents just finished listening to 6 months of stern lectures from ed reformers on why we all have to turn our kids over for testing for the good of the system when ed reformers are pushing vouchers?
Why do public school parents have a duty to consider their actions in the context of the whole system when voucher parents don’t?
Vouchers are the ultimate opt-out, by both parents and lawmakers. These politicians are now responsible for absolutely nothing other than issuing funds. We could hire a clerk to do that.
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In fairness, many parents are forced to send their children to a district school they dislike at as cost that is far higher than the cost of a private school that they do like, or they have to come up with the extra money themselves.
I’m not a voucher fan because I do agree that it would have a big negative affect on the whole system and is a cop out, but I absolutely understand why some very principled people who believe in public education do support them. It’s a matter of weighing the needs of the individual vs. the needs of the group.
I’m very sympathetic with parents who work their butts off for $6,000 to send their kids to a private or parochial school while we (the public) send $20,000 to the district school they would have attended for *not* educating that kid and not offering that parent what they want. And I’m frustrated that many of the students that have accomplished so much in our middle school are forced to attend a much more expensive (district) school that we and their parents know they will do worse at. On a personal level, it’s a tragedy,and anyone who has made their mind up about vouchers without considering that isn’t thinking through the entirety of the issue.
I have no sympathy for opt-outers who don’t want their kids to take a few days of testing a year when compared to a parent who is forced to choose what’s right for their children’s future vs. what they can afford to eat for dinner. The amount they are giving up to benefit the “whole system” can’t remotely be compared.
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But that isn’t how vouchers work in practice. They haven’t worked like that in Ohio. They’re a subsidy for parents who were sending their children to private schools anyway.
That’s the whole point of the ed reformers objection. Vouchers won’t benefit the children we were told they would benefit, and in fact may harm them.
I don’t agree that testing is a “few days a year”. Testing drives the whole system in public schools and it gets worse, not better, every year. I’m not an opt outer, but my lawmakers recklessly approved the CC testing experiment on every public school kid in this state. When they were forced (by parents and teachers- ed reform groups did nothing) to LOOK at the CC testing they determined the tests were too long. Is it too much to ask that they not climb on every bandwagon when we’re talking about tens of millions of kids?
Ohio public schools spent the last year on that test. Next year they will have a new one. There’s just total disregard for existing public schools. There is NEVER any analysis of downside risk.
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Chiara,
I agree with you that they don’t work that way in practice, which is why I am generally against them.
But, I equally think that the objection to them is not because they aren’t helping the neediest students, but is instead on philosophical and protectionist grounds. Most critics are against means tested vouchers as well. I’m not an expert on them, but the DC voucher program seemed to serve the appropriate students, but was still vociferously attacked. Most opponents are against means tested programs as well.
The actual testing is in fact a small number of days per year. What public education has done in light of attention being paid to results (mostly via teacher eval; much of it not yet even with any consequences) is to overemphasize the tests.
Yes, many testing regimes are poorly implemented, as are many of the new teacher evaluation schemes. They are replacing lack of accountability and are being forced on public education because public education has not come up with its own methods of meaningful accountability and evaluation. I hope there are substantial improvements made because neither extreme is good for kids.
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“What public education has done in light of attention being paid to results (mostly via teacher eval; much of it not yet even with any consequences) is to overemphasize the tests.”
Hilarious. Charters, of course, don’t overemphasize the tests.
And what do you mean teacher evals don’t yet have consequences? Losing one’s job isn’t a consequence? What planet are you on?
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Dienne,
No teachers have lost their jobs due to poor student test scores in NY, yet there is plenty of test prep, pressure put on students, etc. Also, I can tell you that there is more “test prep” and angst in my children’s suburban district school than in my urban charter.
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John,
I am in agreement. It is a simple calculation to show that when a parent takes $6,000 from the school district and places his/her child he/she is doing four things.
1. They continue to pay taxes like everyone else to finance the public schools and
2. They will leave behind $14,000 a year per child which is a great charitable contribution to the public school district.
3. Without the ESA they would be leaving behind even more, $20,000.
4. They can not even deduct this from federal/state/local income taxes. These parents are truly generous and public schools should encourage many more to join this crowd.
Take the example of New York State. There are no vouchers and the private school enrollment is 233,000. At $19,552 per student expenditure at public schools in New York State the parents of private school children are leaving behind $4.5 Billion to the public school system. This probably is the largest philanthropy in the world.
Finally, the opt-out movement has no place in my book either. Here the concept is never to let a new idea be tested, a catch 22 situation. Opt-out is out right scare tactics and will harm the society.
Examples to follow are Massachusetts and California. They are replacing existing MCAS and STAR testing with common core tests. This change is meant to not increase test time. Opt-Out movement is not very popular in these states. Test time alone is not an issue, it will settle down and get resolved, when we accumulate some experience in this new concept.
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Will Nevada evaluate the effects of vouchers on existing public schools, or will we continue to get analysis that excludes public schools, as we have with charters?
Any cost/benefit system-wide thinking going on, or does that only apply to public school parents and our duty to go along with each and every standardized test they roll out?
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It is my understanding that Mr Rau, Nevada Succeeds and others worked with the legislature in Nevada to bring the state Educational Savings Accounts (vouchers) and an Acheivemnt School District fashioned after those in Louisiana and Tennesee. I am glad that he was truthful in his interview. Everyone needs to know that education reforms in Nevada are about supporting upper middle class and wealthy families, NOT those most in need. This is what is going on in the state in which I teach.
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According to his LinkedIn profile, Seth Rau taught fifth grade for 7 months. He left the students mid-semester (in March) to become policy director for the reform organization, Nevada Succeeds. It seems that he is a TFAer who did not complete a full school year. https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethrau
Mr Rau’s Fordham paper suggests that teachers be regulated like Nevada prostitutes. He recommends, “non-unionized independent contractors tested and examined regularly to ensure the customer’s safety and satisfaction”.
I’m glad Diane’s not ready to nominate him for the honor roll.
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What an idiot. He has nothing but contempt for the teaching profession when he thinks they should be regulated like prostitutes. Nevada has no real unions at all anyway. What a dolt.
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Well said, DNA.
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Isn’t Rau Klingon for whore??
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A big Ohio University donor, as reported by Columbus Dispatch reporter, Reis Thebault, recently sent an e-mail, in his capacity as an OU Foundation trustee to Ohio University administrators, advising them to “play the race card”.
“owning up to the facts”
White, entitled men of the 0.2% misuse people, particularly the vulnerable like minorities, to get what they want. Currently, it is money from charter schools. They’re very comfortable falsely protraying a money scheme, as a civil rights movement.
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Chiara: ah, that old saying—
Figures don’t lie but liars figure.
I remember, as I am sure you do too, that not so long ago there was a strike in Chicago PS. There were assertions, including on this blog, that the “average” CPS teacher made approx. $77,000@year. Wowza!
One teensy weensy little problem, as several folks online tried to clarify the situation. As is so often the case with rheephorm math, were the spin doctors of the top CPS educrats mixing in, say, highly paid administrators and central office apparatchiks that held teaching credentials with the actual in-the-trenches working-everyday classroom teachers? If they were, were those credentials still valid, or expired, or did it matter? And did that yearly amount include teachers receiving money for doing all sorts of extra work that added to, but were not a base part, of their yearly salaries? And just what “average” were they dangling out in public: mean, median mode?
So much money here! So much money there! Charters schools are public schools, just the same, but better—and for being better they get less! It’s, like, totally unfair, gag me with a spoon!
😱
Uh, a recent posting by Jersey Jazzman, on what some of the maximum “thought leaders” of rheephorm say about funding disparities:
LInk: http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2015/07/why-u-arks-charter-philanthropy-study.html
If I may cut to the chase, just a part of his comments on how charters get “cheated” on transportation monies [I leave out the important graphical elements between paragraphs]:
[start]
For this example, we’ll talk about transportation. In many states (including New Jersey), school districts that host charter students must provide transportation for those students attending those charters. This saves the charter from having to worry about getting their students to school, both financially and logistically, as the entire burden is on the local district.
Here we see the taxpayers giving money to the local district for transporting all of the district’s resident students, whether they attend a charter or a district school. The charter school gets none of it… but then again, they don’t have to transport any kids! But U-Ark doesn’t appear to care at all about this[…]
Instead, because they are focusing only on revenues, they look at the extra money the districts get without thinking about the extra obligations the district has. Obviously, this makes no sense; there has to be some way to account for the difference if we’re going to make a useful comparison. Unfortunately, as Bruce points out, there is no evidence U-Ark ever attempted to do just this.
[end]
[brackets mine]
And Jersey Jazzman concludes with this gem about the intellectual derring-do of this particularly distinguished group of rheephorm “thought leaders”:
“That is a preposterous analogy. U-Ark isn’t looking at total revenues in all publicly-funded schools; it’s dividing up the schools into groups that do different jobs. What they’re actually doing is more like counting up the revenues that flow to the Defense Department and the Department of the Interior, than bemoaning the fact that one gets less — without acknowledging that they don’t have the same function!”
Click on the link provided to get the full, er, “story”—although I think you might conclude that when it comes to such daring feats of inventive mathematical thinking Homer is all the rage with rheephormistas:
“I didn’t lie! I just created fiction with my mouth!”
They should have paid more attention to something else he said:
“Words empty as the wind are best left unsaid.”
Go figure…
😎
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KrazyTA,
In my district, services that the district provides to charters (transportation, nursing, etc.) add up to about $700 per student, while the charters get about $7,000 less per student.
Here’s an exercise for you. Find me *one* school district that has shown, using actual numbers, that a charter school student costs them more money to educate than a district school student. They have all the numbers. They even have the ability to give themselves the benefit of the doubt when deciding how to present them. Yet, for all of the talk of charters “siphoning money” from districts (note no mention of “siphoning students”), I have never (literally not once) seen a specific accounting that attempts to demonstrate this.
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” Find me *one* school district that has shown, using actual numbers. . . ”
Are “actual numbers” real numbers? Or are they irreal numbers?
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The Ohio charter funding formula subtracts a set amount of funding for each public school per student. The problem with that is Ohio public schools don’t receive a set amount of state funding for each student. So, if the school gets 5k in state funding and makes up the rest in local funding, the charter student takes 2k in local funding with them.
Yet they continue to insist they get no local funding. Which is not true. The reason they didn’t get local funding is because we have no public representation on their boards and there is zero transparency. It was bait and switch.
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Diane, of course, partial vouchers won’t help the poor. They are intended to help the middle and upper classes. That is a no-brainer.
But to see what really helps, let’s look at the ACA exchanges. When the poor get to choose their insurance for essentially free (since many poor on the exchange receive virtually 100% subsidies and even caps on out-of-pocket expenses), they get to decide what insurance option is best for them. The same is true on some levels in Medicaid. The poor choose the doctor (albeit from a more limited pool) and it’s paid for by the taxpayer.
Only when the tuition funding truly follows the child – or when vouchers equal the annual state/local cost per pupil – will be see the poor benefit. Why don’t you support increasing the amount of these vouchers then? I mean, since you are so confident that everyone loves public schools, you must believe that every student will remain in a public school instead of charters/private ones. See, we have another agreement!
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Virginiasgp, why not have vouchers for police and firefighters? Why not hire your own security guard? Or have a firefighter whom you have chosen?
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I hope you are not serious, Diane. Vouchers for police and fire services obviously do not make sense. If my neighbor’s house is on fire, I am affected regardless of whether they have fire protection. Vouchers should be issued when a standard product/service is consumed by the recipient but quality may vary. Let’s look at examples where vouchers do work:
1. Medicare (you choose your doctor and the gov’t pays them a voucher amount)
2. Medicaid (same as #1)
3. Per diem travel (both car and hotel are paid but you choose the company)
4. Military housing
5. Food stamps
6. ROTC/NSF/etc. scholarships from the government
7. Insurance company claims
and the list goes on and on and on.
Essentially, somebody determines what a product/service is worth (or how much the gov’t can afford). And then you go obtain your product or service. If there is a gov’t facility that can accommodate (e.g. military housing), you are free to choose that option. Same with public schools. However, you are free to spend your voucher amount however you like. If it cannot cover the amount (e.g. if military housing allowance did not cover rent), then essentially it would only subsidize the middle/upper class.
Your analogy fails on all counts.
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There is not much in the way of private schools in Nevada, having lived in that state for 26 years. It will be only the parents whose kids are currently in those school who will get the 5k windfall. Of course, the private schools will merely jack up the tuition in order to keep the “riff-raff” out.
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Susan students that are currently in private school in NV are not eligible for the $5K. A student must be enrolled in public ed for a minimum of 100 days to qualify.
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John & Raj,
John wrote:
“I’m very sympathetic with parents who work their butts off for $6,000 to send their kids to a private or parochial school while we (the public) send $20,000 to the district school they would have attended for *not* educating that kid and not offering that parent what they want. . . On a personal level, it’s a tragedy,and anyone who has made their mind up about vouchers without considering that isn’t thinking through the entirety of the issue.”
Raj wrote:
“I am in agreement. It is a simple calculation to show that when a parent takes $6,000 from the school district and places his/her child he/she is doing four things.
1. They continue to pay taxes like everyone else to finance the public schools and
2. They will leave behind $14,000 a year per child which is a great charitable contribution to the public school district.
3. Without the ESA they would be leaving behind even more, $20,000.
4. They can not even deduct this from federal/state/local income taxes. These parents are truly generous and public schools should encourage many more to join this crowd.
That $20,000 is not the student’s money, it is not the parents’ money, it is the amount of money it takes on average to educate a student in X district in a given year. So the parents/students are not “leaving behind $14,000” or any amount, it was never their monies. What about those who pay taxes and don’t have any children, should they get that $20,000 to use how they see fit? Your way of thinking is such that since I am driving more in the next state over due to a job change I am leaving behind X dollars of highway funds in my home state and am entitled to them to give to the next state over as I see fit. What about those that don’t drive at all? That ESA concept is essentially saying that we all should get $X amount of public school or highway funds to use as we see fit. What a STUPID idea and way of thinking.
And that’s the heart of the matter, it’s not the parents’ nor students’ money anymore than the highway fund money is mine to take my supposed share. Not to mention it is the state’s constitutional mandate to provide the schooling, and the system we have set up, that has evolved over the years to have many checks and balances continues to be the best way to ensure that our tax dollars are appropriately used for all students, not just a few who choose (hey there’s that choice concept) to not use those schools for whatever reason.
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Wow, Duane, that might be the least applicable analogy I have ever seen.
You are correct that it’s not the “parents’ money”. However, that money would be expended if the child attended school. By the parent providing an education outside of public school, the state saves the $20K. For example, if you had a clue and were to fund the education of John’s kid in private school, you would save the state $20K, not yourself. It’s obviously not the parents’ money or your money.
The same would apply to snow removal on public sidewalks. If a citizen shovels them, they save the state/city money. It wasn’t their money but you can’t save they didn’t save the gov’t money.
Get a clue. You are truly hopeless.
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Virginiasgp, I live in NYC and Long Island, where we sometimes get heavy snows. If I shovel my own sidewalk, it saves the city and the county nothing. They still have the same fixed costs.
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Diane, are you talking about the sidewalk for which you are responsible? I am talking about the public sidewalks (think in front of a park). And no, their costs are not fixed. They would either need to maintain more staff or pay overtime or hire contractors if all the citizens stopped pitching in to shovel public sidewalk. Either way, they pay more. Maybe the opt-out folks should take a basic accounting class at some point.
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I don’t know if you ever lived in a city, Virginia, but the public doesn’t shovel the public parks and sidewalks. So far as I know, that function has not yet been privatized for profit.
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Ok, let me make it a little simpler (although schools must shovel their public sidewalks in front of their buildings). Let’s use snow removal on the street. If their is an industrious guy with a truck who removes snow in front of his street (with a front loader), that many has unquestionably saved the city/state/county/etc money since they don’t have to plow the street. The gov’t would be wise to offer the cost of removing the snow to such folks so that the gov’t doesn’t have to maintain the same level of workers, equipment, etc.
Or let me make the example a little clearer for all you city folk. Hurricane Hugo came to shore in SC over 20 years ago. It was pretty devastating to the Charleston area but was still packing hurricane strength winds 200 miles inland near my home. We lost water for about 3 days and power for 1-2. Folks couldn’t get out of their neighborhoods in the morning (storm hit at night) because of all the fallen trees. Did we just sit around and whine and wait for the gov’t services to come “save the day”? Of course not, everybody got out their chainsaws, cut the trees apart and cleared the streets. If the gov’t had to perform that work, it would have cost $$$$.
The compensation shouldn’t go to the parents, schools, etc in the vouchers case. It should go to compensate anyone who pays for the schooling of a child for whom the state is responsible for educating. In most cases, this might be the parent. But it could be a private benefactor. The money should follow the child, period.
I had started to think you all were being obstinate (Diane, Duane, Dienne, etc.), but I’m starting to realize you just don’t have the intellectual horsepower to comprehend basic economics. Very sad indeed. No wonder you couldn’t make it in the private sector where concepts like marginal cost, substitution costs, opportunity costs are critical to success.
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Virginiasgp, no more insults or you are out of here.
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Diane,
I find that analogy ridiculous. if 20% of the people in NYC were to decline garbage pickup, would the city not be able to retire a few garbage trucks and reassign a lot of employees?
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John,
I don’t know of any resident of New York City who would “decline garbage pickup,” do you? What would they do with their garbage?
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Property owners in NYC are required to maintain their own sidewalks, including snow removal. So the city doesn’t budget anything for removing snow from private buildings.
http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/2489/snow-or-ice-on-sidewalks-report
Have I ever mentioned that I really don’t like argument by analogy?
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Ya te dije
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¡Basta contigo!
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“By the parent providing an education outside of public school, the state saves the $20K.”
I can assure you that I would not be saving the City of New York $20,000 if I took one of my kids out of public school.
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FLERP, yes you would! If 24 other parents and you took your kid out of school, the schools could get rid of a classroom. Thus, all the marginal costs associating with educating those kids (~$15-16K/yr) would disappear.
Over a larger group, you could begin to eliminate whole schools and thus the fixed costs (building, utilities, insurance, etc.) would disappear. If 10% of a district’s population chooses charters, then 10% of the district’s costs disappear.
I can suggest some great Econ 101 classes at your local community college if you are having trouble with basic principles. Should I look them up for you?
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Certainly I understand your point that there’s an economy of scale there. Take one kid out of school, no real marginal cost reduction. Take out a whole class, perhaps you get measurable marginal savings. Take 50% of students out of public schools, and now you’re really getting somewhere.
My point was simply that it does not cost $20,000 per year to educate either of my kids. You should be using that fact to get me all riled up about how few of my tax dollars are actually going to my own children’s education. Maybe I’d start demanding vouchers.
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“I find that analogy ridiculous. if 20% of the people in NYC were to decline garbage pickup, would the city not be able to retire a few garbage trucks and reassign a lot of employees?”
No, that’s the problem. Unless all the decliners are on the same blocks or something. But otherwise, the public garbage collectors still have to go down all the same streets.
Same thing applies in education. Unless a charter school pulls all of the kids out of one class, the public school still needs all the same teachers for all of the remaining kids. Still needs the same number of classrooms, the same amount of heat and electricity, the same bus routes, etc. The savings are minimal, but the loss of funds is big.
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Dienne,
Another oft repeated fallacy that doesn’t get any truer with repeated retelling. It is true to a small extent for a short amount of time when small percentages of students leave, but my local district says the same thing after 10 years and 20% of students gone. It’s just a rationalization for not reducing staff while the schools who are attracting students are adding.
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Virginiasgp, if you have a datacenter and one worker decides to store all their files on a thumb drive instead of the network’s data center how much money does that save IT?
And please stop insulting Diane and the people who comment here.
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Virginiasgp, FLERP! is correct.
And you are not correct. One would not only need 24 students to withdraw, you would need them to leave at one grade level in order to reduce a section and its marginal costs…and that is in an elementary school model. In a secondary school model where the 24 students in a grade are likely distributed over many courses one would need more students to leave before reducing sections without reducing access to courses for other students.
The other thing that needs to be considered is that public schools function in many respects like a public utility. While losing a student at the margin reduces expenses negligibly and gaining a student at the margin likewise does not increase expenses much (unless they are a high cost special needs student), when you say that if 10% of parents moved their children to charters that there would be a reduction in fixed costs that would depend on whether we can expect all of the students to stay with the charter or some to return from the charter.
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Hmmmm…
Hectoring that folks on this blog “don’t have the intellectual horsepower to comprehend basic economics” is rich fare indeed! Especially coming from someone that invent facts that aren’t, er, factual.
😳
At first, claiming that “in-class products” by teachers were the basis of the Atlanta cheating scandal might seem just sloppy fact-checking, an inexplicable inability to google easily accessible information, and a thoughtless rush to judgment. But when self-correction doesn’t kick in even after a such a misstatement has been made and pointed out, it morphs into a self-serving lie and a sign of utter contempt—
For the person that persists in standing by a lie. Self-inflicted damage. Merciless self-parody. The intellectual equivalent of seppuku [traditional Japanese ritual self-disembowelment] but without even a hint of honor attached.
Me? I didn’t have to do a thing.
Just reporting the facts, ma’m…
😎
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Krazy TA, when did I refer to the Atlanta cheating scandal involving in-class products? I don’t recall that. I mentioned my local district had an issue with a principal who pressured for grade inflation but the principal also was accused of changing test answers and having her team give out answers on those standardized tests.
In the post on question, you take exception to a discussion of marginal vs average costs. So tell me, in economic terms, how many students must withdraw from public schools to rationalize using an average cost (reported per pupil cost) vs just the marginal cost (minus the building cost, overhead cost, etc)? We all agree that in DC , where 40%+ are enrolled in charters, the cost savings to the district for those 40%+ is similar to their student population – 40%+ cost savings – and justifies using average cost. Removing a single student from public schools does not and would warrant using a lower marginal cost.
Is that transition at 700 students, at 10k students, at 10%, etc? Every industry performs the save calculation with production. Ramp up/down production with labor (overtime, part-time, etc) until they either need to but more capacity or sell off capacity. Where is that transition/cutoff for schools? It must exist.
It appears that my answers don’t always reach the blog as Diane feels I post too much – her prerogative. Since I don’t always verify my posts show up, please let me know if I haven’t responded and I will again.
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Well said. If it’s our money, then I want my share of military spending back to spend as I see fit. Maybe I’ll buy my own bomber.
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Better yet, I’ll take my share and go “attend” Costa Rica and transfer it to them.
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Dienne, spoken as only someone who has never even thought about defending our country could!!!!
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Virginiasgp, how about privatizing the military? Let every citizen decide which wars they want to support. Then hire Blackwater and other profiteers to fight the wars. Why have a military, when mercenaries will do the job. That’s your logic.
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Privatize the $500B/year military? Deal, but only if we also let folks determine how much of the $1000B/year (or $1T/yr) in gov’t handouts they want to chip in on too.
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Señor Swacker: amazing that when you and others get real, suddenly the anti-philosophical crew gets all philosophical on us.
I think they must have misunderstood that Mexican superhero of yesteryear, El Chapulín Colorado: he did not say “No contaban con mi falta de astucia” [they didn’t count on my lack of astuteness] but rather the opposite.
Only one point of many. I don’t expect this to penetrate the consciousness of the “Campbell’s Conjecture” crowd but let me remind those that are not inflicting Rheeality Distortion Fields on themselves that if one investigates rheephorm’s ‘midyear dump’ by charters on public schools [aka keep the $tudent $ucce$$, dispose of the non-striving test suppressors] it’s going to be difficult to find a lot of hard data points. Let’s take, say, L[os]A[ngeles]USD, where there’s a heap of them miraculous charters and some of them crummy public schools too [sarcasm, rheephormsters; it’s a word in the dictionary—look it up]. Rheeality: you can’t produce the figures because there’s nothing untoward going on. Reality: the people that would ferret out the numbers and keep track of them are the same rheephormistas that are running LAUSD. It is not in the interests of the charterite/voucherite/privatizer pack to provide a running account of their own double think, double talk and double standards.
Ask a fox in the henhouse how many hens he’s eaten, after first informing him that X number of hens will get him, er, terminated. Surprised when he massages and tortures the numbers & stats, albeit haltingly and with great effort as he coughs out all the bloody feathers?
Those that are surprised and believe that fox are all in for self-proclaimed “education reform.” The rest of us…
Not really.
Thank you for making an effort, but as another famous character of Mexican tv [both created by Robert Gomez Bolaños, “Chesperito” aka “Little Shakespeare”] said, El Chavo del Ocho—“Primero muerto antes que perder la vida!”
How are you going to communicate with folks that think that “I’d rather be dead than lose my life!” makes a lot of sense?
Now $tudent $uccess, that makes a lot of ₵ent¢ to them…
😎
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KrazyTA,
Here’s an easy challenge for you. Provide some hard data on “midyear dump”. Should be a piece of cake since school districts have all of the hard data and can easily say how many students come back at specific points in the year from specific schools, true?
Or, how about the hundreds of lawsuits and newspaper articles that must exist about parents whose kids were kicked out at test time? Those must exist, right?
My local district and employees constantly talk about this concept as well, but when asked for an iota of evidence, can’t deliver. Can you?
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Rheeality: the LAUSD BofE is fiercely protective of public schools, taking absolutely no positions or actions, pro or con, re corporate education reform initiatives like charters. The LATIMES is interested in the truth and nothing but the truth, zealously hewing to no side in the ed debates but investigating every ed issue with an impartial and even hand. If there were even a hint of a midyear dump by charters both the LAUSD BofE and the LATIMES would be all over it like white on rice. Reports from the LAUSD and articles in the LATIMES would be too numerous to count.
😳
Reality: the LAUSD BofE fiercely advances corporate education reform initiatives like charters, often irregardless of the harm done to teachers and other school staff, students, parents and the communities in which those public schools are located. The LATIMES acts as if it is the MSM arm of the charterite/privatizer movement. From their furious devotion to John Deasy (until they threw him under the bus) to their long-after-the-fact timid exposés of rheephorm abuses, a plethora of possible Pulitzers were sacrificed to their fawning devotion to rheephorm [hint: iPads & MISIS, anyone?]. Neither the LAUSD BofE nor the LATIMES can ever be rightly accused of violating (except in minor and self-protective ways) the sacred servility in which they hold themselves in thrall to the gatherers and reapers of $tudent $ucce$$. For both organizations, their silence in the face of ongoing abuses by the self-styled “education reformers” is not just compliance—silence is the golden bottom line. And for the bidness minded supporters of the rheephorm business plan that masquerades as an educational model—they’re in it to spin it!
😡
Game, set, match, KrazyTA.
😎
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Game, set match, are you kidding me? You provide no data nor anything that can be verified and have not only convinced yourself, but think you’ve “won” some kind of argument?
Why don’t you FOIL the information? Why doesn’t the Network for Public Education? The answer to all of these questions is that the rumors work fine within your echo chamber where you don’t have to defend them to anyone. That doesn’t make them truth.
I swear it sounds like Fox News here sometimes. Denying reality and creating false narrative looks the same regardless of political stripe.
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You should have listened to Homer:
“Words empty as the wind are best left unsaid.”
But you made this day count:
“A day without laughter is a day wasted.”
Thank you for following Charlie Chaplin’s advice and making sure this day was not wasted.
At least for those of us on Planet Reality.
😎
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Duane,
I still pay my taxes and I am not demanding any thing back from the state for the school, fire, police ambulance services and other public services. Ideas about making this similar to police, fire and other services came from Diane Ravitch.
It is so simple, the parent is not using the public school for his child and therefore the school district does not need to spend that money. If you do not spend it, you save it. It is a straight forward logical conclusion.
Yes the state has a mandate to educate the children, but does not have a mandate to force my children to attend the public school. Therefore the state is obligated to accept home schooling and private schooling. They have the right to monitor home schooling and private schools. The states obligation to educate my children ends as soon as my children are sent a private school.
The ESA concept only talks about school funds and does not include highway, fire, ambulance, police and other public services. You mention high way funds, it is a tax on gasoline, and those who drive a lot pay more.
I know what you think, it is not the students money, parents money, states money. But you think it is your money, you representing the school, the district and all the teachers. Is it because you say so?
Diane Ravitch goes off the track and brings in fire, police and all the rest of the public services. I sincerely hope I do not use any of them, but I am not demanding a refund because I did not use them till now. If needed I hope they are there for my protection. I pay taxes for this protection. It is not the same as a public school. If I do not use the public school, will I be helped if my house burns down or when I am robbed or some such horrible outcome?. The answer is no. The other public services are not the same as education. They are some form of insurance. If I do not like those services I can go live in a remote corner of the country, I will be the loser.
If I do not use the public school system I am not the loser. If I willingly do not use the public school by using a private school, I have not harmed the public school or my children. I have only reduced the cost to the public school district, because they have one less child to spend money to educate. Just one child makes no significant impact in the big scheme of things, but 233,000 children in New York State has a very large impact ($4.5 billion) indeed.
It is such poor logic Ravitch uses when she does not have a good argument to rebut my comment. It is the old story, when you run out things to say, attack, simply attack. The loudest person wins or wait it out until this blog goes away tomorrow.
Oh, these knights in shining armor coming to defend their fair maiden is another story altogether.
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Is the providing of education a constitutionally mandated function of a state’s (or it’s subsidiaries) government?
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Duane,
Compulsory schools attendance laws existed in all states as of 1918.
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More on compulsory school attendance laws:
Click to access ED119389.pdf
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Raj, who attacked you?
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Aww, did you get your wittle bitty feelings hurt, Raj? Then perhaps you’d better watch yourself, pal. You have way more than the average number of insulting posts on these threads. Goose, gander.
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A lot has changed in the past 20 or 30 years, nothing more so than the cost of tuition at an elite private K-12 school. I can’t tell you at what point it became the norm for such schools to give their enrolled students tests like the CTP-4 or Terra Nova, but I can assure you that today the vast majority of them do.
Perhaps this note from Sidwell’s head of school, which I have posted to your blog numerous times before, will better your understanding of why the elite private schools give standardized tests (although it doesn’t mention anything about counseling out), and why there is no “opt out” movement at such schools:
“For several years, Educational Records Bureau (ERB) has offered schools the option of doing the Comprehensive Testing Program (CTP) online. Given that SATs will be given online in the near future, the Middle School will take advantage of this option this year, giving the students practice with online assessments. Seventh and eighth graders will take the tests in their advisory Tuesday, February 5th through Thursday, February 7th. Fifth and sixth grade will take their tests in homeroom the following week, Tuesday, February 12 through Thursday, February 14.
“As in the past, students will take Verbal Reasoning, Reading Comprehension, Writing Concepts, Quantitative Reasoning and Math Achievement subtests. Should a student be ill and miss a test, there will be some opportunity to make up the test on Friday of the testing week. As with the paper and pencil version, the best preparation for the testing sessions is a good night’s sleep followed by a nutritious breakfast. Teachers will assign light homework, and no tests, quizzes, projects or papers will be due that week.
“The testing schedule is a little different from that of past years. Because students will be on screen instead of on paper, ERB recommends that the test sections be staggered over the course of the day. On the three testing days, students will take their first section after Silence in the morning and their second section after lunch. If it is possible to avoid appointments on the three testing days of your child’s grade level, that would be appreciated.
“Parents will receive results by the first week of March. It is important to remember that standardized test scores are only one measure of a student’s academic profile, a snapshot if you will. A more complete and accurate picture emerges when the scores are combined with classwork, daily performance, regular assignments, projects, and tests. Still, the ERB/CTP’s can help parents and teachers understand more clearly and completely a child’s balance of strengths and needs. Teachers may review the scores in detail, looking for patterns that emerge from one year to the next, and then use that information to be more effective in the classroom.”
And John just made another great point, which is that opt-out didn’t exist in NY until tests were tied to teacher evaluation. The tests were always long and bad, and endlessly prepped for. There wasn’t opting out after the big Steiner cut score adjustment of 2010, or even the first year of Common Core scores.
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Duane,
The money is the public’s money, which they want used to provide a quality education to a student they have collectively taken responsibility for.
It should not be taken for granted as being the “district’s money” regardless of performance either.
Parents have a much more vested interest in the outcomes, and publicly elected school boards have a terrible track record regarding improving education.
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John, let me remind you that we live in the greatest nation in the world. It got that way because we have a public education system. It has plenty of flaws and much room for improvement, but we didn’t attain greatness with charters and vouchers.
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Yes, but let me remind you that the quality of the public education (and other public services) you receive in this country is largely determined by your zip code, and that quality of education is one of the many things in this country that are leading to greater wealth gaps and greater injustice.
Our current public education system has shown success in educating those from high-SES, non-minority backgrounds who are motivated and come from families that are motivated. Unfortunately, the growing majority of our students are not that now. Our students have changed, but our institutions largely have not. Can you honestly say that schools have adapted to these changes and tried their best to provide the same educational outcomes for today’s students as those of 50 years ago?
I agree that we got where we are because we offered a public education system that achieved great outcomes for the students it had. Do you think we still have that?
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Quality of education is defined not by zip code but by parental income. Look at the SAT scores.
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Diane knows that:
1. SAT doesn’t reflect education but aptitude of the children
2. Income is correlated to SAT scores because income is also correlated to IQs which are causal to SAT scores
Both of you are incorrect in assuming that poor neighborhoods have bad schools because their achievement scores are low. You can’t make that conclusion until you’ve seen the VAMs. And yes, Diane, even the ASA said that VAMs could be useful over larger sample sizes like schools and districts so you lose double on that one.
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Virginia, ASA said VAM could be useful for large groups but NOT for individual teachers. Read it again. It is only 8 pages.
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“Quality of education is defined not by zip code but by parental income. Look at the SAT scores.”
And to think of all the time I’ve wasted worrying about whether my zoned schools will provide my kids a quality education. I should have just been increasing my income!
One clarification, though: after I’ve increased my income, do I need to do anything, like apply to some expensive private schools and send my kids to one? Or will the SAT scores just automatically skyrocket?
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“Quality of education is defined not by zip code but by parental income. Look at the SAT scores”
No, educational outcomes are correlated with parental income. Quality of education is not the same thing, and by many measures, we offer a poorer education to poorer families.
Also, yours is a distinction without a difference since zip code and parental income are largely correlated
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I’m not suggesting that the performance of a district should be taken for granted. All taxpayers have a vested interest in a district providing the best teaching and learning process, education for the students. If any taxpayer doesn’t like what he/she sees going on in a district there are many avenues (although they may not be apparent at first glance) from organizing other patrons and confronting the board to running for the board itself. Or even take the time to volunteer in the schools to get a better picture of what actually is going on inside of the school’s walls.
And we’ll have to disagree about the “track record” of improving education FOR ALL especially the most educational resource needs children. I see that much has improved for many children over the years. Have some boards been recalcitrant in providing the opportunity FOR ALL STUDENTS in the past? Yes, but eventually things have gotten worked out, usually for the better, much in contrast to the educational malpractices that are thrust upon the districts, schools, teachers and most importantly the students.
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Diane,
You said “but we didn’t attain greatness with charters and vouchers”
With all due respect let us ease up on blaming charter schools. Charter schools may be not the solution for all the ills of K-12 public education, the ills of this society or one’s skin condition.
If you believe scholarly research, the charters are equal to or better than the schools they have replaced. Remember charters are only approved to replace failing schools. There are many times more failed public schools than all the charters in a given state. Just look at school rating for any state and add up all the public schools within ratings of D or F and do the same with charters. You will be surprised. Then compare the failing public schools and the charters for the same period. Raw data is available for year 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013.
Stop demanding that failed charters be shut down. You will still be left with 4 to 5 times as many failed public schools. What do you do with them? Bad charters will fail on their own and be gone, but will the bad public schools ever improve?
Why should the failed charter school have a death penalty and all its teachers fired when a similar death penalty does not apply to failed public schools?
Stop glorifying public schools at the expense of charter schools using fraud as a measuring stick. Charters are only 5% of all schools. Charters are not the only schools with fraud. Public schools are not immune from fraud. Fraud is committed by individuals who run charters and/or public schools. Fraud and malfeasance have cost the LAUSD upwards of $200 million in the last three years.
Remember in a public school system, you have no choice, your child must attend the school that is assigned to your area. There is a legal case going on against a mother who sent her child to another public school. She was only doing the best for her child. I hope the judge finds her innocent and convicts the district.
In my area the nearest elementary school is rated 7 as compared to another school in the same district rated 10 about a mile away. Some of my neighbors are violating the law and sending their children to the school rated 10 using false addresses. Should they be punished?
You do not even have a choice of a teacher in the given school. The public school system is afraid. They misuse the power invested in them.
There are very many great public schools but there are many failed public schools. We are trying to improve the failed public schools while keeping the great public schools.
Finally, what the charters have accomplished is to start a nation wide conversation on our partly failed K-12 public education system. Parents are voting with their feet when possible to attend charters on little high quality published information that is available. Let this conversation reach its logical conclusion.
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Wait, wait, don’t tell me. I have a great idea. Why don’t we get rid of the all the post-secondary “charters” (aka private colleges and universities) and just rely on the public schools to educate our students. While most foreigners aren’t yearning to come over to the US to enroll in public high school, they definitely try to seek admission to our private universities.
Our colleges and universities are definitely a major part of why the US became so great, especially as they have attracted foreign talent. And yes, we do have some great public schools (Berkley, Michigan, Texas, Ga Tech, UCLA, Virginia, etc.), most would admit that it’s the private institutions that warrant the most acclaim (Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, etc.)
With all that being said, many of the charter schools scare me. I don’t find many that I would send my kids too. I’m generally invested in public schools and want to reform them. But I think the competition is healthy and if folks can figure out a winning formula (a la KIPP), I say go for it.
But the charter school advocates need to be careful not to confuse greater variation in smaller schools with sustained excellence. As the Gates Foundation found out, when you have smaller schools, you have greater variation. Yes, some will excel but that may just be a statistical illusion. You will also have more than fail. We need to be quick to judge the performance of charters and shut them down. And we cannot stop trying to reform public schools.
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Raj,
Our public schools are not failing. Most of the scholarly research shows that charters underperform as compared to public schools
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Even the SAT folks know it doesn’t reflect “aptitude”. That’s why the initials don’t stand for anything anymore. Geez, Virginia.
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Dienne, wrong again. That’s quite a streak. While the College Board has tried to decorrelate the SAT from IQ and make it more of an achievement test like the ACT, it is still pretty closely correlated.
Why don’t you read this article from a progressive bastion – Slate – to end your confusion. Anybody who uses SAT scores to determine the “quality of one’s K-12 schools” is foolish. As I’ve said before, a college friend scored in the 99.9+ percentile on the SATs and graduated high school with a total of 8 students in his class. He was woefully unprepared for college. His high school definitely was not the cause of that high SAT score.
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Virginiasgp, an anecdote is not social science. The tight correlation between family income and standardized test scores is well established.
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Diane says “The tight correlation between family income and standardized test scores is well established.”
Sure, as is the tight correlation between family income and other measures of poor academic achievement, including high school completion, college completion, incarceration rates, lifetime income, etc.
What you’ve said in no way lessens the value of the tests.
Anticipating your frequent response that we shouldn’t bother testing if income level predicts results, you know full well that that is true in aggregate, but not for subsets. Measuring a group of students, school, or district against “predicted performance” based on socio-economic factors is valuable information. Do you suggest a better way, or do you consider such things unmeasurable?
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John,
I spent seven years on the federal testing board. The standardized tests have many flaws–statistical errors, random errors, confusing questions, two right answers, errors in scoring. They are not that reliable a measure to tie people’s fates to. The bell curve is unforgiving. I suggest sampling like NAEP for large groups–states and urban districts–and teacher-made tests.
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Diane,
How can teacher-created tests be considered valuable anywhere except in the classroom in which they are created? Teachers generally won’t test on anything they haven’t covered, so they aren’t a measure of whether kids are learning what they are supposed to be learning. They’re also hardly objective. Kids come into my school having gotten Bs from their teachers in 4th grade when they can’t read. Not some; almost all.
Would you like med school professors or schools to give out medical licenses? Some objective measures are absolutely needed. They need to be improved, but I can hardly see why you would value NAEP and not state assessments. It certainly seems that it is objective evaluation that you don’t care for.
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John,
Kids who go to private schools don’t take standardized tests. They take teacher-made tests.
When I went to public school, I never took a standardized test.
The greatest generation never took a standardized test.
You want a nation of standardized minds.
Not me.
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Diane,
I went to public school and took these tests. Did you not take the Iowa Test of Basic Skill or some such? It was such a low key part of the experience that my guess is that many who took them have forgotten.
Some private schools take state standardized tests and some don’t. Your statement that they don’t is simply inaccurate. Remember the widely spread rumor that Commissioner King’s kids went to a Montessori school with no private tests? Untrue; they take them. They’re not required to, but they do.
I don’t want a nation of “standardized minds”. I want a nation of children that can read and do math. I want a nation of children that have the opportunity to live successful, choice-filled lives. Do you really think that the issue is that we’re graduating too many narrow minded savants that are excellent at Math and ELA but not well rounded? That is the furthest thing from what I see.
When I hear what you’re saying, I hear that you want a nation of no testing so that suburban teachers whose kids have always done well enough don’t have the angst of having their performance measured and so that we don’t have to cast light on the thousands of low-SES kids who drop out, are unemployable, and who are likely to end up in jail.
The idea that “standardized tests are for standardized minds” doesn’t pass the sniff test. I for one like the idea of “standardized” doctors, lawyers, automobile drivers, nurses, etc. I think a high school graduation should mean that you understand certain concepts and have certain skills. Do I hope you know more than that? Sure. But let’s have a baseline.
Do the tests need improvement? Sure. I’d love to see teachers working on that. Get rid of “trick” questions so that they are more simply assessments of whether students have a particular skill or not and don’t overemphasize test-taking strategies. But, to say they should go away is to say that we should give up on educating the hardest to educate, that we should not be trying to improve education for the easy to educate, and that we should just leave teachers alone to take care of this most important undertaking without monitoring or feedback.
There’s a well known saying that you can’t improve what you can’t measure. Do you disagree, or do you just think that education is so inherently unmeasurable that we can’t hope to improve it?
Education worked in the 50s because there was a middle class and because much of the rest of the world was so far behind us. Now, we have a large underclass for whom education is not working and the rest of the world has zoomed past us. Deniers think this isn’t true, but it’s our kids who will pay the price. Like climate change deniers, they will protect the people who benefit from the status quo at the cost of the future.
Here’s a simple question for you. Given more resources, can current urban schools, doing more of what they’re doing today, graduate successful kids from most low-SES families? If your answer is no, then education is headed towards becoming something just for the minority successful population and the wealth gap is headed to the stars. If your answer is yes, how much money and where is some evidence that it will work?
Yes, it’s harder to educate a kid who starts at a deficit and doesn’t have parental support. One response to that is to say that we continue to work as we always have (deliver a “standard education”) and that kid gets what they get. If they fail it’s their fault or their families. Another is to say that we have to do what it takes for them to be successful.
My answer is that teachers and schools can make a huge difference if we make substantial changes including having kids spend more time there and if we focus on the needs of the kids more than the needs of the teachers. Yours seems to be that we should just continue down the path we were headed on before NCLB, etc. Oh, and we should solve poverty through other means so that we can educate the kids we want instead of the kids we have.
Sorry, I don’t want a country filled with gated communities for the haves and prisons for the have-nots.
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BTW, if the SAT really does measure “aptitude”, what’s your explanation for why black and Latino students score lower than white students? Are you saying that blacks really are inferior?
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Diane wrote “Kids who go to private schools don’t take standardized tests. ”
This simply isn’t true. Children at most Catholic schools, yeshivas, and other private/parochial schools in New York sit for the entire battery of NYSED 3-8 tests.
Children at nearly all the elite private schools — Lakeside, Sidwell, Lab School, etc. — take multiple years’ worth of multi-day standardized bubble tests in elementary and/or middle school. Yes, even at the $45,000/yr schools that Dewey would approve of.
Why do the elite schools do this? Primarily it is to guard against what commenter John (who has been hitting the ball out of the park in all of his comments here) mentioned: they are to make sure that the teacher assessments are aligned with reality. But there is a dark side, too: these tests are used to build a case against children who are “counseled out” due to the belief that they are not on track to gain admission to a competitive college. They are certainly stakes for the students and teachers.
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TIM,
You are wrong. My two sons went to a private school, and they never took a standardized test. I hear from young parents that they flee to private schools to avoid standardized tests. The tests are so error-ridden, why would you pin the fate of children on them?
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Diane,
The tests have been what they’ve been forever and the stakes for children have generally gone down, not up, via full inclusion,etc.
It’s disingenuous to pretend that the current angst about testing is anything other than pushback for evaluating teachers, not kids.
And, though the tests may have issues, is it appropriate to “pin the fate” of children on chance and not knowing how they’re doing? That’s what we had before, and while I acknowledge it was more comfortable for teachers, it certainly wasn’t doing kids, especially those from subgroups, any good.
I guess it would be hard to argue that information about how kids are doing is a bad thing, so you have to argue that the tests don’t provide any useful information.
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John so true. But there is now a growing consensus that the tests are measuring not only academic gains but demonstrable long-term outcomes (future income). And these studies have been repeated over and over and over again in such a short period of time.
It’s hard for the opt-out movement to come up with new excuses. Their best line is trying to convince parents/students that these tests shouldn’t be used to “categorize” the students (don’t treat me as a “number”). But the main purpose of the tests is to measure “growth”, not absolute scores, and thus determine the effectiveness of schools, not the abilities of children.
In twenty years, the use of tests to measure the effectiveness of schools will not be controversial. I wonder how history will judge these activists given that there is so much research supporting VAMs right now. Will they be equated with the segregationists who resisted change for so long?
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Virginasgp, Wrong again. There is no consensus on the value of VAM, and zero evidence based in reality. You are citing Chetty and Kane. There are many highly reputable scholars who know about schools that don’t agree with them
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(Reposting this where it should have gone in the first place, apologies to all)
A lot has changed in the past 20 or 30 years, nothing more so than the cost of tuition at an elite private K-12 school. I can’t tell you at what point it became the norm for such schools to give their enrolled students tests like the CTP-4 or Terra Nova, but I can assure you that today the vast majority of them do.
Perhaps this note from Sidwell’s head of school, which I have posted to your blog numerous times before, will better your understanding of why the elite private schools give standardized tests (although it doesn’t mention anything about counseling out), and why there is no “opt out” movement at such schools:
“For several years, Educational Records Bureau (ERB) has offered schools the option of doing the Comprehensive Testing Program (CTP) online. Given that SATs will be given online in the near future, the Middle School will take advantage of this option this year, giving the students practice with online assessments. Seventh and eighth graders will take the tests in their advisory Tuesday, February 5th through Thursday, February 7th. Fifth and sixth grade will take their tests in homeroom the following week, Tuesday, February 12 through Thursday, February 14.
“As in the past, students will take Verbal Reasoning, Reading Comprehension, Writing Concepts, Quantitative Reasoning and Math Achievement subtests. Should a student be ill and miss a test, there will be some opportunity to make up the test on Friday of the testing week. As with the paper and pencil version, the best preparation for the testing sessions is a good night’s sleep followed by a nutritious breakfast. Teachers will assign light homework, and no tests, quizzes, projects or papers will be due that week.
“The testing schedule is a little different from that of past years. Because students will be on screen instead of on paper, ERB recommends that the test sections be staggered over the course of the day. On the three testing days, students will take their first section after Silence in the morning and their second section after lunch. If it is possible to avoid appointments on the three testing days of your child’s grade level, that would be appreciated.
“Parents will receive results by the first week of March. It is important to remember that standardized test scores are only one measure of a student’s academic profile, a snapshot if you will. A more complete and accurate picture emerges when the scores are combined with classwork, daily performance, regular assignments, projects, and tests. Still, the ERB/CTP’s can help parents and teachers understand more clearly and completely a child’s balance of strengths and needs. Teachers may review the scores in detail, looking for patterns that emerge from one year to the next, and then use that information to be more effective in the classroom.”
And John just made another great point, which is that opt-out didn’t exist in NY until tests were tied to teacher evaluation. The tests were always long and bad, and endlessly prepped for. There wasn’t opting out after the big Steiner cut score adjustment of 2010, or even the first year of Common Core scores.
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Tim, the only point I’ll differ with you on is that tests were always “endlessly prepped for”. I think test prep has gone through the roof as a result of teacher evaluation being tied to growth. That’s what I’ve seen in my childrens’ school and is certainly what many “opt-outers” are saying.
I think most here even acknowledge that and say that it is inevitable (see “Campbell’s Law”; think Starbucks workers who rudely shout at customers to make up their minds about what kind of latte they want because they’re being evaluated on how many customers they serve in a day).
Apparently, one can’t expect teachers not to cheat and endlessly prep if they are being evaluated based on the tests to any degree, so it is not permissible to evaluate them using anything other than the nonexistent perfect evaluation tool.
In public education, one must always evaluate ideas relative to the hypothetical perfect and then reject them instead of deciding based on whether something is better than what we’re doing now. It’s one of the key pillars of mediocrity that enforce the status quo.
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John, I won’t deny that the temperature has gone up with respect to test prep, but my kids in NYC DOE schools have been in one testing grade or another for five years, and the quantity really hasn’t changed that much.
Yes, I’m a big fan of the argument that test prep just can’t be helped, not at the district, school, or classroom level. Especially when in the next moment I’m told that tenure is indispensable as it allows teachers to always do what’s best for kids.
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“You have no evidence that in class products are any more reliable. First, teachers are notorious for inflating their students’ grades (see Atlanta cheating scandal).” My interpretation is reasonable, although a case can made that black is white, day is night and…
😳
Clueless. As in, taking seriously my humorous reference to raising students from the 13th to the 90th percentile [forget that pesky co-teacher!], then eviscerating even the thought of doing so, when it was the claim to miraculous teaching fame of the person about whom the following was sung in praise:
“Btw, my personal hero is Michelle Rhee. While I respect the civil tone of Arne and Joel Kline, there was nothing like watching Michelle on TV telling principals they would have to perform or else the students would get a principal who would. A principal that that those students deserved! ”
😱
It would give you some cred to show even a little “grit” and “determination” and take a moment or two to do some homework about your own statements.
But what should I expect from someone that buys into the foolishness of IQ and its being a fixed and measurable entity: “I’m only suggesting that when many studies show IQ has a greater effect than income on success and results, then it’s critical to acknowledge the elephant in the room. If you can’t change IQ, there is no reason to fixate on it. Focus on what we can change. However, we have to have realistic expectations of all policies and players.”
Uh, okey dokey. Look that one up too. But you’re right—after looking over some of your comments a second time, I have a much more realistic expectation of what you can and can’t comprehend.
“In the end, it’s pretty simple. Just remember it’s all about the truth, justice and the American way. If we will stop blocking progress, we will no longer have to wait for Superman. He is already here. “He” is just cloaked as VAMs!”
You leave me speechless.
But not John Steinbeck:
“Man is the only kind of varmint sets his own trap, baits it, then steps in it.”
So please keep being intimate with “I will continue” and “to be” and “hoisted by” and “my own petard.”
😎
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I wonder what the brown vs BoE would say today. Institutionalized racism wasn’t ok, but, now we see if you create 2 systems, people can choose, then you can fund the favored system (vouchers?) and minimally fund the other (race to the bottom cash grabbing charters) and you end up with the same system we have been trying to break up racially for literally decades.
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Some realities:
1. Seth Rau and his group Nevada Succeeds promote privitization in Nevada. I will not separate the two, as he promotes their agenda off hours.
2. Nevada Succeeds is a think tank that is an extension of America Succeeds, a growing group that did much damage in CO legislation as well.
3. Communities of color and poverty have been oppressed and ignored in Clark County School District, the 5th largest district in the nation. Unfortunately, this group began to listen first which built a trust off of misguided interests.
4. Now Seth and his group takes a step back as those leaders of those groups question implementation of a voucher system that perpetuates their original cry for support and resources for students in poverty, ELL, and POC.
5. This group that promotes the destruction of due process, the demise of public education based on toxic testing, and promotes failure as to gain itself a purpose at our community’s long term cost.
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Excellent points.
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