Professor Francesca Lopez of the University of Arizona responded to Betts and Tang’s critique of her post on the website of the National Education Policy Center.
She writes:
In September, the National Education Policy Center (NEPC) published a think-tank review I wrote on a report entitled, “A Meta-Analysis of the Literature on the Effect of Charter Schools on Student Achievement,” authored by Betts and Tang and published by the Center on Reinventing Public Education. My review examined the report, and I took the approach that a person reading the report and the review together would be in a better position to understand strengths and weaknesses than if that person read the report in isolation. While my review includes praise of some elements of the report, there is no question that the review also points out flawed assumptions and other areas of weakness in the analyses and the presentation of those analyses. The authors of the report subsequently wrote a prolonged rebuttal claiming I misrepresent their analysis and essentially reject my criticisms.
The rebuttal takes up 13 pages, which is considerably longer than my review. Yet these pages are largely repetitive and can be addressed relatively briefly. In the absence of sound evidence to counter the issues raised in my review, the rebuttal resorts to lengthy explanations that obscure, misrepresent, or altogether evade my critiques. What seems to most strike readers I’ve spoken with is the rebuttal’s insulting and condescending tone and wording. The next most striking element is the immoderately recurrent use of the term “misleading,” which is somehow repeated no fewer than 50 times in the rebuttal.
Below, I respond to each so-labeled “misleading statement” the report’s authors claim I made in my review—all 26 of them. Overall, my responses make two primary points:
The report’s authors repeatedly obscure the fact that they exaggerate their findings. In their original report, they present objective evidence of mixed findings but then extrapolate their inferences to support charter schools. Just because the authors are accurate in some of their descriptions/statements does not negate the fact that they are misleading in their conclusions.
The authors seem to contend that they should be above criticism if they can label their approaches as grounded in “gold standards,” “standard practice,” or “fairly standard practice.” When practices are problematic, they should not be upheld simply because someone else is doing it. My task as a reviewer was to help readers understand the strengths and weaknesses of the CRPE report. Part of that task was to attend to salient threats to validity and to caution readers when the authors include statements that outrun their evidence.
One other preliminary point, before turning to specific responses to the rebuttal’s long list. I am alleged by the authors to have insinuated that, because of methodological issues inherent in social science, social scientists should stop research altogether. This is absurd on its face, but I am happy to provide clarification here: social scientists who ignore details that introduce egregious validity threats (e.g., that generalizing from charter schools that are oversubscribed will introduce bias that favors charter schools) and who make inferences on their analyses that have societal implications, despite their claims of being neutral, should act more responsibly. If unwilling or unable to do so, then it would indeed be beneficial if they stopped producing research.
What follows is a point-by-point response to the authors’ rebuttal. For each point, I briefly summarize those contentions, but readers are encouraged to read the full 13 pages. The three documents – the original review, the rebuttal, and this response – are available at http://nepc.colorado.edu/thinktank/review-meta-analysis-effect-charter. The underlying report is available at http://www.crpe.org/publications/meta-analysis- literature-effect-charter-schools-student-achievement.
#1. The authors claim that my statement, “This report attempts to examine whether charter schools have a positive effect on student achievement,” is misleading because: “In statistics we test whether we can maintain the hypothesis of no effect of charter schools. We are equally interested in finding positive or negative results.” It is true that it is the null hypothesis that is tested. It is also true that the report attempts to examine whether charter schools have a positive effect on student achievement.
Moreover, it is telling that when the null hypothesis is not rejected and no assertion regarding directionality can be made, the authors still make statements alluding to directionality (see the next “misleading statement”).
#2. The authors object to my pointing out when they claim positive effects when their own results show those “effects” to not be statistically significant. There is no question that the report includes statements that are written in clear and non-misleading ways. Other statements are more problematic. Just because the authors are accurate in some of their descriptions does not negate my assertion that they make “[c]laims of positive effects when they are not statistically significant.” They tested whether a time trend was significant; it was not. They then go on to say it is a positive trend in the original report, and they do it again in their rebuttal: “We estimate a positive trend but it is not statistically significant.” This sentence is misleading. As the authors themselves claim in the first rebuttal above, “In statistics we test whether we can maintain the hypothesis of no effect.” This is called null hypothesis statistical testing (NHST). In NHST, if we reject the null hypothesis, we can say it was positive/negative, higher/lower, etc. If we fail to reject the null hypothesis (what they misleadingly call “maintain”), we cannot describe it in the direction that was tested because the test told us there isn’t sufficient support to do that. The authors were unable to reject the null hypothesis, but they call it positive anyway. Including the caveat that it is not significant does not somehow lift them above criticism. Or, to put this in the tone and wording of the authors’ reply, they seem “incapable” of understanding this fundamental flaw in their original report and in their rebuttal. There is extensive literature on NHST. I am astonished they are “seemingly unaware” of it.
#3. My review pointed out that the report shows a “reliance on simple vote-counts from a selected sample of studies,” and the authors rebut this by claiming my statement “insinuates incorrectly that we did not include certain studies arbitrarily.” In fact, my review listed the different methods used in the report, and it does use vote counting in a section, with selected studies. My review doesn’t state or imply that they were arbitrary, but they were indeed selected.
#4. The authors also object to my assertion that the report includes an “unwarranted extrapolation of the available evidence to assert the effectiveness of charter schools.” While my review was clear in stating that the authors were cautious in stating limitations, I also pointed to specific places and evidence showing unwarranted extrapolation. The reply does not rebut the evidence I provided for my assertion of extrapolation.
#5. My report points out that the report “… finds charters are serving students well, particularly in math. This conclusion is overstated; the actual results are not positive in reading and are not significant in high school math; for elementary and middle school math, effect sizes are very small…” The authors contend that their overall presentation of results is not misleading and that I was wrong (in fact, that I “cherry picked” results and “crossed the line between a dispassionate scientific analysis and an impassioned opinion piece”) by pointing out where the authors’ presentation suggested pro-charter results where unwarranted. Once again, just because the authors are accurate in some of their descriptions does not negate my assertion that the authors’ conclusions are overstated. I provided examples to support my statement that appear to get lost in the authors’ conclusions. They do not rebut my examples, but instead call it “cherry picking.” I find it telling that the authors can repeatedly characterize their uneven results as showing that charters “are serving students well” but if I point to problems with that characterization it is somehow I, not them, who have “crossed the line between a dispassionate scientific analysis and an impassioned opinion piece.”
#6. I state in my review that the report includes “lottery-based studies, considering them akin to random assignment, but lotteries only exist in charter schools that are much more popular than the comparison public schools from which students are drawn. This limits the study’s usefulness in broad comparisons of all charters versus public schools.” The rebuttal states, “lottery-based studies are not ‘akin’ to random assignment. They are random assignment studies.” The authors are factually wrong. Lottery-based charter assignments are not random assignment in the sense of, e.g., random assignment pharmaceutical studies. I detail why this is so in my review, and I would urge the authors to become familiar with the key reason lottery-based charters are not random assignment: weights are allowed. The authors provided no evidence that the schools in the study did not use weights, thus the distinct possibility exists that various students do not have the same chance of being admitted, and are therefore, not randomly assigned. The authors claim charter schools with lotteries are not more popular than their public school counterparts. Public schools do not turn away students because seats are filled; their assertion that charters do not need to be more popular than their public school counterparts is unsubstantiated. Parents choose a given charter school for a reason – oftentimes because the neighborhood school and other charter school options are less attractive. But beyond that, external validity (generalizing these findings to the broader population of charter schools) requires that over-enrolled charters be representative of charters that aren’t over-enrolled. That the authors test for differences does not negate the issues with their erroneous assumptions and flatly incorrect statements about lottery-based studies.
#7. The authors took issue with my critique that their statement, “One conclusion that has come into sharper focus since our prior literature review three years ago is that charter schools in most grade spans are outperforming traditional public schools in boosting math achievement” is an overstatement of their findings. In their rebuttal, they list an increase in the number of significant findings (which is not surprising given the larger sample size), and claim effect sizes were larger without considering confidence intervals around the reported effects. In addition to that, the authors take issue with my critique of their use of the word “positive” in terms of their non-significant trend results, which I have already addressed in #2.
#8. The authors take issue with my finding that their statement, “…we demonstrated that on average charter schools are serving students well, particularly in math” (p. 36) is an overstatement. I explained why this is an overstatement in detail in my review.
#9. The authors argue, “Lopez cites a partial sentence from our conclusion in support of her contention that we overstate the case, and yet it is she who overstates.” The full sentence that I quoted reads, “But there is stronger evidence of outperformance than underperformance, especially in math.” I quoted that full sentence, sans the “[b]ut.” They refer to this as “chopping this sentence in half,” and they attempt to defend this argument by presenting this sentence plus the one preceding it. In either case, they fail to support their contention that they did not overstate their findings. Had the authors just written the preceding sentence (“The overall tenor of our results is that charter schools are in some cases outperforming traditional public schools in terms of students’ reading and math achievement, and in other cases performing similarly or worse”), I would not have raised an issue. To continue with “But there is stronger evidence of outperformance than underperformance, especially in math” is an ideologically grounded overstatement.
#10. The authors claim, “Lopez seriously distorts our work by comparing results from one set of analyses with our conclusions from another section, creating an apples and oranges problem.” The section the authors are alluding to reported results of the meta- analysis. I pointed out examples of their consistent exaggeration. The authors address neither the issue I raise nor the support I offer for my assertion that they overstate findings. Instead, they conclusively claim I am “creating an apples and oranges problem.”
#11. The authors state, “Lopez claims that most of the results are not significant for subgroups.” They claim I neglected to report that a smaller sample contributed to the non-significance, but they missed the point. The fact that there are “far fewer studies by individual race/ethnicity (for the race/ethnicity models virtually none for studies focused on elementary schools alone, middle schools alone, or high schools) or other subgroups” is a serious limitation. The authors claim that “This in no way contradicts the findings from the much broader literature that pools all students.” However, the reason ethnicity/race is an important omission is because of the evidence of the segregative effects of charter schools. I was clear in my review in identifying my concern: the authors’ repeated contentions about the supposed effectiveness of charter schools, regardless of the caution they maintained in other sections of their report.
#12. The authors argue, “The claim by Lopez that most of the effects are insignificant in the subgroup analyses is incomplete in a way that misleads. She fails to mention that we conduct several separate analyses in this section, one for race/ethnicity, one for urban school settings, one for special education and one for English Learners.” Once again, the authors miss the point, as I explain in #11. The authors call my numerous examples that discredit their claims “cherry picking.” The points I raise, however, are made precisely to temper the claims made by the authors. If cherry-picking results in a full basket, perhaps there are too many cherries to be picked.
#13. The authors take issue that I temper their bold claims by stating that the effects they found are “modest.” To support their rebuttal, they explain what an effect of .167 translates to in percentiles, which I argued against in my review in detail. (The authors chose to use the middle school number of .167 over the other effect sizes, ranging from .023 to .10; it was the full range of results that I called “modest.”) Given their reuse of percentiles to make a point, it appears the authors may not have a clear understanding of percentiles: they are not interval-level units. An effect of .167 is not large given that it may be negligible when confidence intervals are included. That it translates into a 7 percentile “gain” when percentiles are not interval level units (and confidence bands are not reported) is a continued attempt to mislead by the authors. I detail the issues with the ways the authors present percentiles in my review. (This issue is revisited in #25, below.)
#14. The authors next take issue with the fact I cite different components of their report that were “9 pages apart.” I synthesized the lengthy review (the authors call it “conflating”), and once again, the authors attempt to claim that my point-by-point account of limitations with their report is misleading. Indeed, according to the authors, I am “incapable of understanding” a “distinction” they make. In their original 68-page report, they make many “distinctions.” They appear “incapable of understanding” that the issues I raise concerning “distinctions” is that they were reoccurring themes in their report.
#15. The authors next find issue with the following statement: “The authors conclude that ‘charter schools appear to be serving students well, and better in math than in reading’ (p. 47) even though the report finds ‘…that a substantial portion of studies that combine elementary and middle school students do find significantly negative results in both reading and math – 35 percent of reading estimates are significantly negative, and 40 percent of math estimates are significantly negative (p. 47)’.” This is one of the places where I point out that the report overstates conclusions notwithstanding their own clear findings that should give them caution. In their rebuttal, the authors argue that I (in a “badly written paragraph”) “[insinuate] that [they] exaggerate the positive overall math effect while downplaying the percentage of studies that show negative results.” If I understand their argument correctly, they are upset that I connected the two passages with “even though the report finds” instead of their wording: “The caveat here is”. But my point is exactly that the caveat should have reigned in the broader conclusion. They attempt to rebut my claim by elaborating on the sentence, yet they fail to address my critique. The authors’ rebuttal includes, “Wouldn’t one think that if our goal had been to overstate the positive effects of charter schools we would never have chosen to list the result that is the least favorable to charter schools in the text above?” I maintain the critique from my review: despite the evidence that is least favorable to charter schools, the authors claim overall positive effects for charter schools—obscuring the various results they reported. Again, just because they are clear sometimes does not mean they do not continuously obscure the very facts they reported.
#16. The authors take issue with the fact that my review included two sentences of commentary on a companion CRPE document that was presented by CRPE as a summary of the Betts & Tang report. As is standard with all NEPC publications, I included an endnote that included the full citation of the summary document, clearly showing an author (“Denice, P.”) other than Betts & Tang. Whether Betts & Tang contributed to, approved, or had nothing to do with the summary document, I did not and do not know.
#17. The next issue the authors have is that I critiqued their presentation and conclusions based on the small body of literature they included in their section entitled, “Outcomes apart from achievement.” The issue I raise with the extrapolation of findings can be found in detail in the review. The sentence from the CRPE report that seems to be the focus here reads as follows, “This literature is obviously very small, but both papers find evidence that charter school attendance is associated with better noncognitive outcomes.” To make such generalizations based on two papers (neither of which was apparently peer reviewed) is hardly an examination of the evidence that should be disseminated in a report entitled, “A Meta-Analysis of the Literature on the Effect of Charter Schools on Student Achievement.” The point of the meta-analysis document is to bring together and analyze the research base concerning charter schools. The authors claim that because they are explicit in stating that the body of literature is small, that their claim is not an overstatement. As I have mentioned before, just because the authors are clear in their caveats, making assertions about the effects of charter schools with such limited evidence is indeed an overstatement. We are now seeing more and more politicians who offer statements like, “I’m not a scientist and haven’t read the research, but climate change is clearly a hoax.” The caveats do little to transform the ultimate assertion into a responsible statement.
Go to the link to read the rest of Professor Lopez’s response to Betts and Tang, covering the 26 points they raised.

Bravo! This is truly impressive.
LikeLike
This is very complex stuff from both sides. The thing that jumps out at me…..is betts and tang’s frequent use of the word “cherry-picking”. There is not much substance to it, but, it serves a purpose for them. It is a subtle attempt to mock some of the most valid criticisms of charters…..criticism for the percentage of students not classified as special needs, criticism of rates of students who magically disappear not too long before testing, and criticism of what is a positive things in many ways, but affects statistics….the number of children whose parents level of concern for their children is above average. It reminds me of when right wingers attempt to characterize people from organizations dedicated to civil rights as “racist”. In both cases…..cherry-picking and racist are used as mockery.
LikeLike
Some of us have urged an end to the battle about which is best, district or charter. There are great examples, and things to learn fro both.
Money would be much better spent bringing district & charter educators together, and paying them to share “what’s working best.”
LikeLike
Right, because unless teachers are paid to share, they simply won’t, being the selfish creatures they are.
Anyway, I think public school advocates would be more willing to live and let live if charters, especially the big chains, and their politician supporters, weren’t making it their mission to undermine and destroy public education. If public education were adequately funded and had access to the same kinds of brand new buildings, facilities and technology that charters do, for instance, and if charters would stop setting up shop right across the street from (and even in the same buildings with) public schools.
LikeLiked by 1 person
We’ve found educators appreciate being paid to attend meetings and share information in the summer, as a sign that they are professionals.
LikeLike
The United States spends a greater percent of GDP on education than almost all of the OECD countries. Money isn’t the problem. On the average charters have significantly less money per pupil to spend than traditional public schools, but generally get much better results. Almost all charter schools are non-profits, including the big chains. The mission of the charter school movement is to improve k-12 education for all students. Traditional public schools in districts tend to also improve once there is charter school competition. It also, of course, is to give, as much as possible, every child an option so that if they aren’t being served by their traditional public school they have a choice. The anti-reform movement doesn’t want children to have a choice because that hurts the teachers unions.
LikeLike
Socrates, there is no evidence that public schools improve when charters are introduced, drawing away the most motivated students. We used to have a dual public school system in this country: one for whites, one for blacks. Do we need to have a dual system again?
LikeLike
Charter schools in my district are destroying the public school system. I have shared more than my portion of heartache.
LikeLike
Socrates – you’re new around here, right? Let’s just dispense with the nonsense that charters get “better results” than public schools. That’s only true if you don’t control for the kinds of students. Charters cream the best students out of public schools and still score only very modestly better than public schools. And that’s if you only care about test scores, which is all charters focus on.
As for money, first, charters usually start off with new facilities and technology, giving them a leg up on public schools. Second, they pay their teachers significantly less in terms of both salary and benefits. Third, they have much greater access to private donation money. Fourth, they don’t have legacy costs. Fifth, charters enroll fewer expensive students to educate – English language learners, kids with disabilities and kids in deep poverty. Sixth, charters originally claimed they could do more with less, but now they’re trying to claim that they need “equal” funding with public schools. So yeah, tell me it’s not about the money.
LikeLike
That was a very nice reply to the obvious troll. How anyone can read the real research and still repeat those talking points is beyond me. I know legislators do it cause that is what their handlers pay them to do, but real people cannot honestly believe the talking points.
LikeLike
Socrates NY: I have heard many complaints about the high cost of education in the US. Keep in mind it costs much more to warehouse people in prisons. Presenting a total expenditures without looking at specifics does not provide a clear picture of the problem. One huge problem is the vast inequity in the allocation of resources which leaves poor districts with high need students with few resources and wealthy districts with Rolls Royce educational options.
LikeLike
@Socrates,
>The United States spends a greater percent of GDP on education than almost all of the OECD countries
The US spends approximately 5.4% of GDP on education as of 2009-2010. This exceeds OCED average(4.4%), but is way much lower than Denmark, Brazil, and China. Moreover, the US spending on education based on GDP percentage has been declining since 2008–due to economic crash and random budget cuts by both states and the federal government.
LikeLike
Dienne: touché!
😃
And, if I may, let me add two others:
1), Why are test scores considered an example of learning rather than knowing how to fail or ace a test?; and
2), Why are we stuck on such limited goals like math and reading that test scores do such a poor job of “measuring” to begin with? What about so many other goals of education (at least that’s how I look at it) that can’t be measured like creativity and compassion and persistence and critical thinking and learning how to learn and joy of learning and good citizenship in a democracy?
Thank you very much for all your comments.
😎
LikeLike
Socrates of NY,
The website, Knowyourcharter.com disputes your claims, with evidence from Ohio. Funding for the site’s research was
provided by middle income workers, who live and pay taxes in our communities, providing funds for the food, education and health needs of poorly- paid Walmart workers.
Was your spin funded by the foundation, of 6 Walmart heirs? They don’t live in our communities but, they take profits from our towns and cities, enabling them to amass the income of 50,000,000 Americans combined (Politifact).
LikeLike
Linda,
Is there a reason that you don’t describe the source of Knowyourcharter.com’s funding as the dues from union teachers rather than the vague statement about middle income workers?
LikeLike
I am surprised Joe. There seems to be a slight concession in your suggestion to “end the battle”. You are actually suggesting that public school teachers might have something valid to say?
LikeLike
Betsy,
You do know that Joe taught for over a decade in an urban public school, his spouse just retired after over three decades teaching in an urban public school and he has a child currently teaching in an urban public school, right?
LikeLike
Another troll!
LikeLike
Socrates, uh, nice talking points. Stale arguments. most of what you wrote is the theoretical, but unproven, reason for the creation of charter schools.
Second, Joe, I’ll take you at your word on collaboration but there is no reason for this collaboration to occur. Charters and publics are competing for the same students and attracting those students is critical to survival. In fact, this would defeat the entire “competition” model so eloquently (ahem) posited by Socrates highly original (and unresearched) philosophy.
If we all worked together, why would there need to be parallel school systems functioning in the same locality or region?
I’m not saying the collaboration idea isn’t good, but it isn’t in the interest of numerous parties.
LikeLike
Long beforeearning from eachother all over the country. chartering there were parallel systems, cities and suburbs. Alt district schoools received some of same criticisms 40 years ago that charters receive now.
Chartering began and continues in part to expand opportunities for low income families.
Chartering also provides new opportunities for some frustrated veteran district educators.
Fortunately district and charter educators are finding value in working with and learning from eachother all over the country.
LikeLike
Here’s my favorite lines:
“Social scientists who ignore details that introduce egregious validity threats (e.g., that generalizing from charter schools that are oversubscribed will introduce bias that favors charter schools) and who make inferences on their analyses that have societal implications, despite their claims of being neutral, should act more responsibly. If unwilling or unable to do so, then it would indeed be beneficial if they stopped producing research.” (p.2)
Well said, Dr. Lopez.
LikeLike
Yes this is great!
LikeLike
I think the rejoinder after this quote should’ve been “Checkmate.”
LikeLike
Actually, Betsy, we’ve been operating on that idea for more than 15 years. Via projects, publications, videos and newspaper columns, Center for School Change has pointed out successes of both district & charter schools. Numerous projects have and are bringing together district & charter educators.
You can see examples at http://www.centerforschoolchange.org
Sorry we have not done a good enough job of communicating this.
LikeLike
This academic bickering only underscore that education, like the social sciences and economics, is nothing but what Richard Feynman called a “cargo-cult science”—a lot of gobbledygook and intellectual incompetence dressed up with mathematics and jargon that looks impressive but actuallly obscures intellecutal understanding.
The fundamtal problems with educational research were discussed in the Washington Post’s Answer Sheet ‘blog recently here. Valerie Strass commented that:
Meta-analyses of bad studies will not make a good study. You can’t use statistical methods to mend basic flaws in methodology or analysis. Given the comments about the basic nature of educational research publications, you can’t trust anyone to give reliable analysis or recommendations.
I hope everyone reads Strauss’s ‘blog and the underlying paper.
LikeLike
Yippee! All charters, all the time in the new Congress, the Obama Administration and (now) 31 states:
“In a jointly penned column for the Wall Street Journal, Speaker John Boehner and future Majority Leader Mitch McConnell laid out their agenda for the upcoming session. The red meat was all ACA and taxes, but lower down the pair pledged to consider legislation “to support innovative charter schools around the country,” adding that they plan to tackle “an education system that denies choice to parents and denies a good education to too many children.” This is no shock, considering McConnell got behind a 2013 charter initiative in Kentucky. ”
Do ed reformers even bother to mention public schools anymore? Other than to issue new mandates or economic sanctions, I mean.
We’ve spent the last 6 years with a laser-like focus on DC’s favorite schools, and it looks like it’s only going to get worse.
Charters and vouchers. Nary a mention of the unfashionable public schools.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2014-11-10/public-education-back-under-fire/
LikeLike
I read somewhere else this week a quote that said parents have “Choice, but no voice.” This conveniently is missing from the talking points of Boehner, McConnell, et. al.
LikeLike
Th meta analysis article, Lopez review, authors’ response to her review and reviewer’s response, are complex and sophisticated. The open minded lay reader (or even a reader with some knowledge of statistics) is pretty much left behind in the dust of combat. Given the complexity of all this material, would it not be fair to the original authors, the reviewer and the public, to submit the original article and follow ups to a third person, mutually acceptable to all, who would take on the task of making sense and passing judgement on the original journal article and subsequent back and forth submissions? Otherwise, advocates from both sides of the charter question become cheering sections for the original authors or the reviewer, based on pedagogical/ideological/political persuasions. From my own position I most assuredly cheer on Lopez. But I am honest enough to know the basis of my cheer leading.
From a practical perspective, we will end attempting to cheer on or hiss a seemingly endless thread of blog postings from posters with insufficient statistical expertise but more than sufficient opinions.
LikeLike
I find your posting puzzling. This is the work of academics. Dr. Ravitch is a world-renowned academic. Many, if not most, of the readers and posters here are academics.
Why should it be troubling or confusing for Diane to post the peer review of a prestigious researcher over a widely-reported academic study?
The dichotomous choices you present as inevitable are false choices. Academics attempt to look beyond simplistic explanations and divisions.
Perhaps that is why they are so ineffective against the us vs. them mentality that has decimated our country’s progress for the last generation or so.
LikeLike
Come on, Chris. Diane is a renowned educational historian. Her post was fascinating; It offered readers the opportunity to follow the complete trail of research and review.
Would you agree that complete set of issues tissues raised on both sides are not complex, though certainly comprehensible?
First, if you have followed this blog for any length of time, you would be sufficiently aware that posters cover the full spectrum of opinions; that is how it should be; and on both sides, those opinions range from the purely ideological, to simple, to sophisticated and complex.
Second, I have no doubt there will be a goodly number of posters who will opine of the merits of this ‘case’. That is why this forum is so popular. Check the the thread. It is expanding quickly, along the continuum of opinions. A fine thing it is.
Third, I was simply giving an opinion on how the parties in this research dispute could resolve – or attempt to resolve – their dispute(s). Hey, from a personal perspective, I find the Lopez review and late riposte, compelling.
LikeLike
John, having earned a PhD and done a number of statistical reports and read hundreds of them, I can report that education researchers have many disagreements and having read hundreds of studies
For some, comparing district & charter achievement is a bit like comparing gas mileage of leased and rented cars. It’s not a meaningful comparison.
As has been noted numerous times, charters and district schools vary widely. Some aim for a cross section of students, some serve students with whom traditional schools have not succeeded. Some are language immersion, some are Montessori, some project based, some arts focused. Some serve suburban youngsters, some inner city.
Some of us have raised these issues with funders and legislators. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don’t.
Meanwhile, I find many day to day educators around the country interested in what’s working well in schools that serve populations similar to the ones in which they work, whether district or charter. Mostly they ignore they rhetoric about whether district or charter are better. Not meaningful.
LikeLike
Joe, I am waiting for you to demand an end to for-profit charters. I am waiting for you to condemn Imagine Schools, K12 Inc., Academica, and Baker Mitchell’s very profitable charter chain in NC. I am waiting for you to condemn the charters that exclude or push out English language learners and students with disabilities. I am waiting for you to condemn the high racial segregation in charters, higher than the surrounding district. Will that day ever arrive?
LikeLike
Please, Diane, for all our sakes, don’t hold your breath.
LikeLike
Diane asked: “Joe, I am waiting for you to demand an end to for-profit charters. I am waiting for you to condemn Imagine Schools, K12 Inc., Academica, and Baker Mitchell’s very profitable charter chain in NC. I am waiting for you to condemn the charters that exclude or push out English language learners and students with disabilities. I am waiting for you to condemn the high racial segregation in charters, higher than the surrounding district. Will that day ever arrive?”
Diane, many times on this blog and elsewhere I’ve criticized public schools whether district or charter, that use admissions tests to admit studsents or encourage students to leave because of their low test scores, disabilities or limited English status.
As to schools run by for profit groups – I think we should be examining the quality of the services provided, in terms of transparency, quality and student outcomes. There are some companies that have earned a bad reputation. I think district wisely don’t do business with them.
I think a school district reviewing a proposal for a new district school or an charter authorizer should review a group’s record carefully, whether they represent a small group of teachers, a non-profit or a for-profit, before approving their proposal. A variety of state legislatures and a few Congressional committees have asked for advice on these issues, and the above is what I’ve suggested. See next comment re racial composition of schools.
LikeLike
Good comments. I’ve found your last paragraph to be generally true when applied to other aspects of the education reform movement. Even the school district I live in that has a lot of poor and minority students and is constantly under the gun for poor performance most rank and file teachers in the traditional schools are actually glad for these reforms and can’t wait for the day that they don’t have to deal constantly with the students who didn’t learn anything the year before because their teacher(s) couldn’t or wouldn’t teach. Charters, however, are a different matter. Every time a new charter opens up the district has to lay off teachers from the traditional public schools, and having a last-in-first-out contract means that almost always leaves the worst teachers in place while getting rid of some of the youngest and most capable teachers.
In this district its a constant battle between the pro-charter and anti-charter factions, and neither faction is covering themselves in glory. The whole thing is sort of funny to watch because the allies on the pro-charter side generally wouldn’t be caught dead with each other on practically any other issue (poor/minorities, conservative business men, the dominant wing of the controlling local Democratic party, and almost all the anti-chart side of the issue are middle to upper middle class and/or live in the surrounding suburbs despite the fact that the school district is predominately poor and minority). Activists on both sides tend towards nastiness and dishonesty.
You definitely spot-on with the general meaninglessness of most of the “research”. it’s devilishly hard to conduct truly meaningful research that involves human beings acting in a social context in real world situations. It becomes nearly impossible to do so when the issue is so politically and emotionally charged. Given that, it’s still sort of disturbing when you know what the results of a “research study/analysis” are going to be forehand by looking at the description of the “research/analysis”, who’s conducting it, who’s publishing it, and/or who’s paying for it.
LikeLike
Regarding your last paragraph, you are actually giving credit to Dr. Lopez for what she says in her response to Betts and Tang.
LikeLike
Dr. Ravitch,
The idea of requiring charters to be non-profit organizations is certainly a reasonable regulation, but are you willing to accept the existence of non profit charter schools?
LikeLike
I am waiting for Joe Nathan, teachingeconomist, and FLERP! to repent their religious bigotry.
I think we will all be waiting for a very long time.
LikeLike
Chris,
What did I say that make you think I have religious bigotry to repent?
LikeLike
Apparently the Pope shares some concerns I expressed about issues in the church. The Pope has removed a cardinal who disagreed with the the Pope about efforts to be more open on issues that I mentioned such as same sex marriage, abortion, etc. etc.
The Pope’s actions are being widely discussed in both Catholic and mass market publications as an effort to promote more openness. While some see criticism of certain long time Catholic views as “bigotry,” others (including apparently the pope want to encourage more opennness)
http://www.jsonline.com/news/religion/pope-francis-removes-former-la-crosse-bishop-raymond-burke-b99165146z1-236134851.html
LikeLike
Chris, I’ll offer this compromise: How about I double down on my religious bigotry right now and let you wait for me to repent that, too?
I am a confirmed Catholic, for what it’s worth, which is absolutely nothing. I have little respect for the Church or its instrumentalities. I also strive to be catholic, so the same goes for Islam and Judaism and Mormonism and the high and low Protestantisms. I also think devout people themselves are silly (and in many cases much worse). So the next time someone feels the need to blather about how religious schools are wonderful because of their wonderful faith, I may make a comment you find offensive. You, in turn, may call me a bigot. And in the meantime, you can wait for me to repent.
LikeLike
@Dianneravitch,
The school districts where the charters appear to be more racially segregated almost certainly on the whole have even more inter classroom segregation than between the charters and the traditional schools. The charters have a high percentage of black students because those students were being denied equal access to educational resources in the traditional resources. I filed a class action lawsuit with the U.S. Department of Education / OCR against my local school district and luckily for now the school district has backed off without having to go to court. We all know that there is huge inter school district problem with segregation, but what about inter-classroom segregation? I couldn’t find any really good research on this issue. You have access to resources and influence. Why don’t get the ball rolling on some comprehensive research in this area? Maybe you will soften your opinion about charters when you see the results.
LikeLike
It’s easy for organizers to label for-profit or non-profit, but it’s nothing more than a façade. They can make whatever name they want and register their operation as non-profit by hiding what they are exactly doing under the label–just like Japanese commercial whalers taking off-shore to hunt whales under the name of Institute for Cetacean Research(ICR).
LikeLike
Thank you Professor Lopez for your reasoned approach and critique of their paper. Far too few people have the training or ability to understand statistical analysis, but software packages have made access far too easy so we are inundated with much so-called research. Far too many reports indicate the findings were not statistically significant, then go on to claim the results indicate improvement or some other impact. Far too many sessions of major conferences are spent trying to justify such approaches instead of focusing on how we can improve our models, our data collection, and our analytical methods. Take the CREDO studies that purport to find positive impacts of some charters over public schools (it is said this is the case for some in Indiana). Instead of using real data, readily available from the state DOE test datasets, they contrive a model set of data for use in their comparisons. The data are available to track a student from the public school to the charter school (or voucher school), make direct comparisons controlling for ses, ethnicity, special needs (although this population is not well represented in the choice schools), ESL, and time in attendence at each type of school, as well as being able to track those children who return to the public schools for whatever reason (we do not collect the reason for the return, sadly). The reserchers could have matched pairs of students, looked at a student over time, or used some other accepted method, instead they decided to ignore the real data. Even at that, they failed to show that charters outperform the public schools from which the students were drawn–with a few exceptions and those became fewer over time.
I find it odd that so many scholars are able to earn doctorates using meta analysis instead of doing original research. I know, funding is scarce. And in doing the meta analysis, identified weaknesses in studies are summarily dismissed or pushed to the side and the resutls, based on bad research/conclusions/methods are then combined with other results as if they were real. Once weaknesses are identified, dismiss the study. Keep up the good work.
LikeLike
I wondered the same thing on meta-analysis.
LikeLike
Akla: excellent observation.
A striking feature of the leaders of the self-styled “education reform” crowd is their gullible acceptance of shallow slogans and misleading rhetoric.
It simply doesn’t occur to them to think deeply, thoughtfully, and self-critically about any issue—except what’s in it for themselves.
On one level, it’s just a cynical attitude: everybody’s got their studies, you’ve got yours, I’ve got mine, they cancel out; all that matters is imposing your will on others.
But beneath all the bravado and billions of $$$$ and heavy duty political connections and fawning MSM coverage is the realization that they can’t defend their ideas and programs in open public debate.
If they could, they would be lining up to take on Diane Ravitch at every turn. As it is, Michelle Rhee and David Coleman and who know how many others simply find ways to avoid having to explain what they’re doing and saying.
Like John Deasy dissing Shakespeare. In private. As if such mediocrities even know what genuine teaching and learning are about.
Thank you for your comments.
😎
LikeLike
There is a difference between real and faux research A real researcher remains neutral, tests a hypothesis, collects data to see whether the facts support the hypothesis or not and draws conclusions from the data. Biased research starts with a conclusion and tries to force the data to support it. Then the research is sent over to Fox News where it is distributed to the masses. It then goes to the bully pulpit of the internet where it is repeated a million times until it is an accepted fact despite the fact “the truth” is based on horse manure.
LikeLike
“software packages have made access far too easy so we are inundated with much so-called research. Far too many reports indicate the findings were not statistically significant, then go on to claim the results indicate improvement or some other impact.”
I think that is exactly right.
I am a big fan of statistics (they are absolutely indispensable in fields like high energy physics ), but they are far too easy to misuse and abuse either through ignorance or on purpose.
People need a license to drive a car but for some reason, they don’t need a license (or even a brain) to use statistical software.
Easy to use statistics packages allow the statistically ignorant to input data, turn the crank and see what comes out the other end with little or no understanding of what the output means — indeed if it means anything at all.
The prevalent — and in my opinion, reckless — use of VAMs has taken this “plug and play” mentality to an extreme.
And worst of all, in the case of VAMs being used to ‘evaluate” teachers, the source code is not available for inspection, so even those who do have the required knowledge have no way of knowing the details of what is going on “under the covers.”
Though we do have access to a limited amount of output data (for NY city, for example), which alone is reason enough to question the validity — and value — of these things.
LikeLike
Good counter. Maybe Betts and Tang took lessons from Reinhart and Rogoff. Peer review is a wonderful thing. We need more of it. Much of “reform” research is floated out there in the hopes the media will pick up a sound byte and the questionable claims forever ingrained in voters’ minds. It takes time for the science to catch up.
LikeLike
Bunch of nonsense. The National Education Policy Center is almost entirely funded, directly or indirectly, by teachers unions and their political allies. I stopped following them when I noticed that they never had anything positive to say about the reform movement and much of their output was shoddy and little more than anti-reform movement propaganda.
LikeLike
Socrates of NY, I think you mean, “Sophists of NY”?
There is nothing positive about so called reform movement. It’s a euphemism for deform movement. Too much misinformation, caveat, and phony narratives manufactured by politicians, media corporations, billionaires, hedge-fund managers, and their tag-alongs.
LikeLike
Socrates, the researchers at the National Education Policy Center are highly esteemed scholars. They are not like many of the think tanks in DC where writers often lack any scholarly credentials, but do have a devotion to ideology. Disagree with the findings if you wish, but offer evidence, not your opinion.
LikeLike
One might say that the researchers at Harvard are highly esteemed scholars, but at least some are regularly accused of being bought by donations. Do you disagree with the posters that claim academics at institutions like Harvard, Colombia, and NYU are being purchased?
LikeLike
I think it’s important to note that the authors of the underlying report are also reputable researchers, at UCSD. Neither NEPC nor its reviewer, Prof. Lopez, know or care about the source of the funding for the CRPE report or any other reports we review. Our concern is with the strengths and weaknesses of the work. While I’m not thrilled with the tone of their rebuttal, I’m glad they responded and that Lopez in turn responded. Some of the issues under debate are certainly too technical for most readers to evaluate. But overall I believe the exchange is beneficial. NEPC’s funders, btw, are listed on the website (http://nepc.colorado.edu/support), and if “Socrates” or anyone else would like to support our work, we would be very grateful.
LikeLike
Kevin,
You have to understand that this is a routine criticism used against people it is difficult to criticize otherwise. Many here claim that Professor Raj Chetty was bought by the individuals and institutions that have donated to Harvard for example. It is a sort of goose gander thing here.
LikeLike
@dianeravitch,
I never offer “evidence” anymore in venues like this unless the situation really warrants it and I can find it on the internet easily so I can link to it. Unfortunately on issues like this most of the people reading and commenting on the blog almost all agree with the blogger and denounce people who disagree and will claim any evidence that doesn’t support their opinions is invalid for one reason or another. If somebody replies to a comment of mine with a link to a clearly reliable and unbiased source I’ll look into it, otherwise forget it. What I get most of the time are bogus links to comments in other blogs or to online vanity journals. As far as I’m concerned on this issue in particular almost everything from both sides is opinion, even when it’s masked as “evidence”. As for the National Education Policy Center may have people with good credentials (I dispute the esteemed part) but that doesn’t matter much when they are just as biased and ideological as the people they’re railing against.
LikeLike
and yet what evidence, links or otherwise, do you put forward to support your allegations that charters outperform public schools etc? Evidence?
LikeLike
Judging by your early posts here, your opinion and ideology is passing for research. Sounds like a good premise. Don’t challenge the research you dislike. Simply dismiss it. Cool.
If you’re interested in reading research that only supports your intuition, may I suggest any number of other blogs to read. (Jay P Greene, for example).
Oh and even Jay P Greene, conservative Walton-funded man that he is, makes arguments for the value of arts education and recently posted that merit pay for teachers is unlikely to work. (His reasons had to do with teachers generally being risk-averse individuals for the curious.)
So, by your reasoning, I refuse to acknowledge anything written by the Heartland Institute, CRPE or Mathematica. Much of their output is shoddy. Largely because I don’t agree with it. See how simple that was.
LikeLike
Here’s a good link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_the_United_States#New_Orleans
There are summaries of some of the more prominent research and links in many case to the source studies. I have followed up on this and read many of the original source documents. Taken on the whole , however, the research really isn’t much good for anything. Unfortunately it’s the best we’ve got, but whenever I have provided links to research that was pro-charter in a venue like this I got jumped and bombarded with claims that the research was biased, invalid, etc, In any case I don’t see any of the anti-charter crowd supplying links to unbiased well done research, so why the double standard?
LikeLike
“Socrates Speaks”
I know that I know nothing
And that’s what nonsense is
So nonsense is the one thing
That I can surely dis
LikeLike
So Socrates, what great things has the reform movement accomplished? Can you refute their argument with facts? You are a reformer, obviously, and you don’t like public schools. What else would you like to tell us? Do you have any useful suggestions to make public schools better? I suggest that until we improve our communities, provide jobs that a person can live on, give our children adequate health care, dental care, and food and shelter in a secure household, our schools will continue to perform poorly. The secret no one wants to know is that schools can’t fix society, they only mirror it. Ask Pasi Sahlberg and others that really know something about education. If you are so sold on the reform movement, why come here?
LikeLike
Diane asked, in part, “Diane asked: “Joe, I am waiting for you to condemn the high racial segregation in charters, higher than the surrounding district. Will that day ever arrive?”
Bill Wilson, The first African American elected to the ST Paul City Council, and former Mn Commissioner of Human Rights in Minnesota has pointed out that huge difference between
a. Being forced, as he was during boyhood in Indiana, to be bused, with no options to a inferior school miles from his home because of his race and
b. The opportunity to choose among various schools, some of which are mostly or exclusively people representing a particular culture.
White people with $ have been able to select “public” districts that are virtually all white for decades. Just as people have been able to select predominantly white institutions, historically Black Colleges and universities, & tribally controlled colleges and universities, I think this options should be available to low income families and families of color. More about the Historically Black and Tribally Controlled University issue and its relevance for K-12 can be found here:
http://centerforschoolchange.org/2014/10/learning-and-teaching-with-fire-lessons-from-hbcus-and-tribal-colleges/
LikeLike
Just a heads up about “Socrates of NY”
He has already made clear here that
“The anti-reform crowd is nothing more than a bunch of thugs guarding their turf. “
LikeLike
SomeDAM Poet: speaking of all your posts on this thread—
TAGO!
Ah, me oh my, ideological wine that’s way past its time in new bottles…
The old “your side, my side, every side has good and bad, and it all cancels out.”
First, that’s just an talking point that doesn’t hold water. That’s just debaters’ tricks on this blog. Because…
Second, the leading lights of the charterite/privatizer movement constantly bray in public that they have secret sauces, magic bullets, cure-all elixirs; they instill the followers of their free market fundamentalist cult with a love of the unreal. They don’t hesitate to proclaim themselves—and their fantastical remedies for what ails education—as vastly superior to what they insist is the tired old education establishment, a pathetic lie since they ARE the education establishment. *And just for a teensy weensy example: remember all the EvaMoskowitzBots that descended on this blog to proclaim their undying loyalty to The Chairwoman Herself? And the mind boggling exaggerations re $ucce$$ Academy?*
Third, it took me years to realize how the numbers/stats folks for a “better education for all” and for public education were so careful to qualify and honestly handle the same sort of data that turns into charterite/privatizer pixie dust in the hands of accountabully bean counters.
Although an unfairly small number of ethical numbers/stats folks, I refer to the blogs of the following, apologizing in advance to those I do not frequent or am so familiar with: Mercedes Schneider, Mark Weber, Bruce Baker, GF Brandenburg, Gary Rubinstein, and Audrey Amrein-Beardsley.
But let me leave the ‘technical’ points behind and get to the heart of the matter…
The shills and trolls for the self-proclaimed “education reform” movement that appear on this blog trim their sails to suit whatever prevailing winds will carry them and theirs to the Land of $tudent $uccess. Their moral compass doesn’t function anymore. Am I exaggerating? Am I engaging in behavior that calls for the next round of pearl clutching and couch fainting? Just consider their deafening silence when it comes to the depredations [yes, I know what that word means!] of a John Deasy or Michelle Rhee[-Johnson] or Paul Vallas or Cami Anderson.
It’s the same siren song that Sandy Banks of the LATIMES sings. Today she fiercely decries bullying and harassment in the military [see link below]. She has done the same re the same in the NFL. But when it came to former LAUSD Supt. John Deasy doing the same reprehensible things year after year, e.g., to Ms. Patrena Shankling, Sandy Banks was slightly concerned but while Deasy was heading up the LAUSD she was a junkyard dog defending him from one and all, so smitten was she with his alleged passion and drive and commitment.
Link: http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-1111-banks-female-veterans-20141111-column.html
The educrats and the edubullies and the edufrauds and the accountabully bean counters are the ideological soul-mates of the shills and trolls. These are the true-blue embodiments of everything that moves their hearts and souls. Hence, unleashing their indignation against those folks is unseemly and uncalled for.
No, they feel the need to go on “Diane Ravitch’s Blog A site to discuss better education for all” and project on to others their own moral and intellectual vacuity.
So with all apologies to the owner of this blog, let me make a point that is alien to the self-proclaimed [and hidden!] leaders and followers of the “new civil rights movement of our time.”
Diane Ravitch has a personal friend, Randi Weingarten. Yet that doesn’t stop her from sharply and publicly disagreeing with her—and even, at times, agreeing with her. And she has taken a lot of heat for that. Yet she hasn’t trimmed the sails of her opinions to suit her friends. And she was in the middle of the charterite/privatizer crowd when she decided that she couldn’t in good conscience continue to promote what she increasingly saw as failure and steps backward. That cost her a lot. But she did it because she has a moral compass.
What Frederick Douglass said isn’t just a bunch of words to her:
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
And what sort of example do I think she sets for the rest of us? At least for me, whatever kind of education we’re talking about and fighting for, I’m all in for a “better education for all.”
And nobody and nothing—ZERO! NADA! NIL!—gets a free pass.
So bring out all your big Marxist guns and fire away.
“The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you’ve got it made.”
And I don’t care how many Grouchos you try to bring against me, I—
WON’T BACK DOWN [hee hee!]
😎
P.S. SomeDAM Poet: I don’t miss any of your contributions. Just, er, following the rubric set down by Dorothy Parker:
“There’s a hell of a distance between wise-cracking and wit. Wit has truth in it; wise-cracking is simply calisthenics with words.”
You’re on the side of wit. Although I am sure that the shills and trolls sometimes feel that you are making them feel as if:
“I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.”
Either way…
😏
LikeLike
I really wish that I can be wit like Krazy TA. Thanks for the best wonderful expression. Back2basic
LikeLike
Hi Francesca,
If I understand your rebuttal, you say that Betts and Tang overstep their bounds. Not surprising. The position of CRPE represents ideas that, decided on Monday, remain unchanged on Friday, no matter what occurred on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.
Thank you for your clarity.
Best,
Adam
LikeLike