On December 10, the “Center for Union Facts” published a very expensive full-page ad attacking Randi Weingarten, the AFT, and teachers’ unions, blaming them for the PISA scores.
In this post, Mercedes Schneider explores the “Center for Union Facts.” As she says, don’t believe the name. It is a corporate-funded, rightwing foundation-funded operation whose goal is to destroy unions.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
It was Einstein I believe who defined insanity as repeating the same thing, expecting a different result. Montessori, Dewey, Adler, Dennison, Goodman, Holt, Illich, and hundreds of others all have been essentially looking for ways to transform experience for young people by proposing sensible and more humanistic changes in schools. Those concepts were not much different from what the militant defenders of public schooling are proposing now, except that they were defending children from the strictures of regimentation and bureaucracy. They saw the issues as endemic to the schools as they had been established as part of a bureaucracy. The current crop of defenders, on the other hand, have turned the tables to glorify the traditional establishment of schools, hoping to render the chronic problems inert or irrelevant through sheer will and good intentions. The new crop of public school supporters vilify the pretenders at reform and strongly condemn the quasi “reforms” that are a dizzying amalgam of the former bad aspects of schooling on steroids with new names, or new iterations of the same old negative aspects dressed up in new technologies. Yet, these anti-reformers fail to see that this is all part of a perennial series of mishaps and fundamental errors. The names are changed, but nothing protects the innocent. The innocent still get hurt, as always.
It’s very sad to see good people so deeply mired in conflict and controversy and obsessed with the screws, nuts and bolts, unable to recognize the part they are playing in a madly misanthropic history. While it may indeed be entirely impossible to change the paradigms under which we try to prepare young people for satisfactory lives by eliminating the laws that necessitate authoritarian bureaucracies, fighting amongst ourselves and spinning our wheels at the expense of children is incredibly wasteful and foolish. I’m sorry if I slowed down your bloody civil war. After all the knives and guns and incendiary devices, and after the nuclear winter, maybe someone will rethink the whole matter in terms that are less restricted by fear of true freedom. I will go back to working on finding ways to take my message directly to the students now and let you all keep reinventing the educational wheel. Happy Holidays.
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Barry, are you suggesting that there is some kind of equal fight between the school reform movement of the billionaires and most of the teachers who are victims of so called school reform? It’s almost like blaming the victim of rape for being outraged and wanting to fight back against the rapist. Most teachers just want to do their job and do not want to be engaged in conflict but the war has been taken to them and so they have no alternative but to fight back.
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Aha! Those who fail to study history are bound to repeat it!
PS (I’m a history teacher) Common Core completely marginalizes the “teaching” of history and submits historical anecdotes as “teaching”
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Joe, I have posted several comments on various occasions that spell out in some detail what my thinking is relative to this animosity & rancor. I am as zealous as anyone when it comes to fighting for what I believe to be right & on behalf of children & teachers, but as someone else said below, “those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it”. The current insanity being imposed upon teachers & students is merely the logical conclusion of laws that take education out of the hands of parents & presume to establish authorities & experts in institutions that can offer it universally. The only difference between what is happening now & what has happened for generations is that the billionaires have more money & power & people are more desperate than ever to try any freakish idea to put an end to the constant conflict & failure. Compulsory attendance is the thing that erases all prospect of authentic autonomy, regardless of who is in charge or how dedicated & competent particular individuals are at a given point in time. My whole point is that the fight is NOT between equal forces & fighting the wrong battles against more powerful enemies, who despite being hapless & incompetent are just as determined & persuaded of their correctness is self-defeating. But, no one is interested in hearing this message or in giving up their sacred mythology. I just don’t have time to waste anymore. Find the essays of Tolstoy on education.
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I understand the frustration that is informing this note, Barry. On the one hand, in this Civil War, as you describe it, there are the corporations, the plutocrats, and the government colluding to create a distant, totalitarian, top-down Common Core Curriculum Commissariat and Ministry of Truth that will rob teachers of autonomy and serve only a few educational materials monopolists. On the other side, we have organizations like the NEA and AFT that are simply calling for slight delays in the implementation of the standards and for doing away with VAM while wholeheartedly supporting national standards, which are the engine that runs the whole deform machine, including the disastrous high-stakes summative testing and VAM–national standards that treat kids as parts to be identically milled, dramatically distort curricula and pedagogy and limit possibilities for innovation there, and that help the monpoloists to achieve economies of scale that will ABSOLUTELY INEVITABLY shut out small, innovative educational materials providers. So, it’s easy to see how one might think that this is a lot of STURM und DRANG that will be pointless in the end. And, of course, the choice between totalitarian schools run by a centralized corporate-led authority and totalitarian schools run by centralized state authorities staffed by educrats is a devil’s bargain.
So, what’s the alternative?
Here’s the alternative:
Creation of a national portal for VOLUNTARY, COMPETING standards, curriculum frameworks, learning progressions, and pedagogical approaches and ongoing funding of groups of scholars and educators to develop materials for this portal instantiating different visions for education in each of the subject areas and domains within those subject areas.
National requirements that teachers’ work loads be reduced to provide time for ongoing Japanese-style lesson study in which teachers subject their own practice to critique and revision,
Autonomy on the part of individual schools that enables them to choose from among the competing standards, curriculum frameworks, learning progressions, and pedagogical approaches, within certain general guidelines related to Constitutional freedom (e.g., equal funding of education for every child, no segregation).
The elimination of mandatory standardized summative tests in favor of diagnostic and formative assessments.
Federal funding of studies of ways of creating, within individual public schools and school districts, viable alternative tracks for kids who, after all, differ, and will be taking on differing roles in a complex, diverse, pluralistic society.
The creation, for every child, of a continually revised IEP plan and of a group of counselors, consisting of teachers and guidance personnel, who meet with that child and his or her parents or guardians regularly to revisit the plan and to chart his or her particular course through the school.
Such an approach would have many advantages over the establishment of a centralized Common Core Curriculum Commissariat and Ministry of Truth. It would respect and build upon the differences in students. It would incentivize real innovation. It would encourage real competition instead of monopolies in the educational materials market. It would create bottom-up continuous improvement. It would create the autonomy on the job that teachers (and all workers) need if they are to give a d— about what they are doing. It would avoid handing control over what is taught to a few powerful oligarchs.
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I agree with the concept of the IEPER plan. Two of my children had IEPs. I met regularly with the teachers and counselor, and, at least once a year, with the team of administrator, teachers, counselor, psychiatrist, and parent advocate. My child was also present. We discussed his progress, his educational goals, his courses for the following year. How wonderful.
Why shouldn’t every child be given this opportunity – for the child and the parents to get constructive feedback and advice. I suggested this to my principal. He said it would be too expensive in teacher time and money.
Luckily we had an excellent guidance counselor who did many of these things. The teachers, during “grade” level meetings also discussed with the principal students who were falling short in their class and they tried to come up with strategies to promote success. We had a small school with less than 100 students per grade (grades 5 to 12 – about 800 students). We were like a family – I hope CCSS doesn’t change that.
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Mr. Shepherd, Does anyone go back at look at these things? I don’t want to offend anyone and I’m sure you are totally sincere, highly intelligent, and capable. But, don’t you think that there have been thousands of bright people with fantastic formulae before, and solutions that, if implemented on a wide scale, that would do much to improve schools? We’ve never had any lack for great ideas and great teachers and great students. The fundamental flaw is that it is impossible to overcome barriers and to find ways to translate ideas into action because we have an inherently oppressive and immovable framework by virtue of laws that by their design establish immutable authority and bureaucracy. Compulsory attendance requires a massive system that is unresponsive and self-perpetuating. The paradigm stands firmly against any alternative paradigm, while allowing just enough token “experiments”, such as the ones you recommend to provide the illusion of flexibility and innovation. How many more decades will it take for good people to stop pretending that these laws do more good than harm and that change is just around the corner? Sorry, but I’m not willing to wait.
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All i can say is “What?!!” This just gets more ridiculous by the day.
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I think AFT & NEA should use their clout to run ads about the moguls who are responsible for US income inequality, unemployment, & poverty:
http://crooksandliars.com/2013/12/pity-billionaires-politico-edition
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The dilemma is that the leaders of the AFT and NEA accept millions from those same billionaires, who have cleverly used their money to entrap the union leadership.
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Well, Diane, you’re just wrong. I’m told again and again that the ed reform “movement” is NOT anti-labor!
Just ignore that all of these anti-middle class worker screeds come from ed reform groups. Just ignore that Rhee hired a lobbyist to work with Kasich on anti-labor “reforms” in Ohio:
“The nonprofit group set up by former Washington D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee is facing criticism for hiring a lobbyist to work on controversial legislation in Ohio that partially restricted the collective bargaining rights of teachers.
Between January and April of 2011, StudentsFirst employed Robert Klaffky, the president of firm Van Meter, Ashbrook & Associates and a close adviser to Ohio Governor John Kasich (R) to help push various aspects of education policy.
In particular, the group, established by Rhee after she left the D.C. school system following then-Mayor Adrian Fenty’s defeat, had Klaffky work on SB5, the infamous anti-collective bargaining bill passed into law but already facing the likelihood of referendum.
Klaffky, in a brief phone interview, said that as a lobbyist for StudentsFirst he did not work on some of the bill’s toughest provisions, including language that limited collective bargaining rights among public employees (including teachers) for benefits, or language that eliminated binding arbitration and prohibited those same employees from striking. Rather, he confined his work to the issue of merit pay.”
Only ed reformers can hire DC lobbyists. Public school advocates cannot fight back, or they’re “politicizing” The Children.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/24/michelle-rhee-ohio-teachers-bill_n_866252.html
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Diane, I wanted to thank you for taking the discussion to Talking Points Memo. I think it’s so important for public education advocates to take the fight OUTSIDE education circles.
This debate is barren, because it’s one-sided. The “reform movement” dominate the conversation, because of course both parties are identical on “reform”. As a non-educator, I have to tell you, a lot of ordinary people never hear this stuff. When Ohio gutted collective bargaining rights for teachers and others, I talked to lots of people about school privatization. The vast majority of people in Ohio do not know that many Ohio charters are for-profits, private companies. They were shocked.
People hear “public schools” re: charters and they (understandably) apply their long-term definition to the word “public”. They don’t know that these schools are private companies.
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When does Brown vs Board of Education apply to private-public Charters?
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What are they going to do after they fire all the teachers? Who do they have to replace them? TFA?
Someone is going to be sorry. I guess all the unemployed teachers will have to home school their kids and grand kids. Maybe they can start a one room school house for the neighborhood – right in their kitchen.
Sounds like a science fiction novel.
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When do will a new generation of civil rights litigators decide that that ‘reform’ is a fight worth fighting; that this is the ‘good fight’? When will progressive unions align themselves with parent and community groups and reinvigorate the the legal struggle? ‘Tis ever so tragic, that we now are condemned to subsisting on fading memories of the seminal cases that articulated basic civil rights constitutional law (for example. Brown and its progeny, and Hobson v. Hanson). The list went on and on; and we took these cases and their protections for granted; we believed their holdings to be to be bed rock foundations of law that would stand the test of time.
What is to be learned is that each generation must fight to re-articulate and re-establish rights, or those rights will erode. The ‘reformers’ well know how to construct apparently appealing and efficacious , legal, policy and pedagogic narratives in their own image, and count on the the perceived inevitability of their struggle to reform constitutional law.
Thanks to the loose alliance of progressive parents, school workers, researchers and blogsters, the pedagogic counter narrative (truth telling), moves forward apace: the word is spreading to stake holders that the ‘reformers’ gelt ist dreck!
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http://bermanexposed.org/ ….
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Buckminster Fuller said: “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
Given that the unions are ineffective (thanks to being compromised by accepting money from the ed reformers and having TURNcoats – pun intended – working within their ranks), pushback to ed reform is now limited to what can be achieved by parents, individual teachers and awake and aware community members.
And I dont know that we can stop this juggernaut… we might be able to over time, but by then several generations of our children will have been irreparably and irretrievably hurt…
and I agree with Barry that its time to think about education in a whole new way… we are merely tinkering with a system that was never designed to see each child as a unique individual, and to foster that child to the fulfilment of his/her ENTIRE potential…
So maybe its time we took Bucky’s words to heart and build a new model of education?
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Dear Sahila, Wow! Someone who has read Bucky Fuller! I am impressed. You are the first person who seems to get it on this blog. Fighting them on their turf is exhausting and I believe futile. And, the worst part is that they aren’t bad people for the most part or natural enemies; they are just pathetic and floundering, making use of the power that they have been granted believing that they are fulfilling their obligations. I wonder however, if you understand fully how destructive the compulsory attendance laws have been and will continue to be until they are eliminated. Tolstoy predicted most of these dilemmas when he opposed the laws in Russia. They can and will be wiped out at some point, but not until many more people are able to abandon the delusion that children must be coerced and browbeaten and that parents cannot be trusted on the whole to take advantage of resources if they are provided via public money. I have a blog that you might find encouraging, which has been inactive for some time at: autonomyforall.edublogs.com (if I haven’t forgotten the address). I would love to hear more from you, although I have given up on this blog.
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I suspect you will like this, if you haven’t seen it already.
http://schoolingtheworld.org/film/
It left me questioning what our society really values and the goals of public education…..and my understanding of true freedom
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Dear Green Party Teacher, Just when I had given up on the followers of this blog, I am given new hope! The video has great relevance for those struggling with these issues. It reminded me immediately of a book that I read a few years ago entitled, “WE are the Paople: Voices from the Other Side of American History”. One of the stories by Luther Standing Bear about the Carlisle School: 1879 from the Land of the Spotted Eagle describes in some detail how the natives were stripped of their culture and brutalized by their arrogant white masters. I wish I could say that all that sort of mistreatment and cultural annihilation ended over a century ago, but it has never left us and can be witnessed in many places, including in the inner cities and in some rural areas. I admire more than anyone might imagine people such as Diane Ravitch who oppose the attempts of the latest technology and cultural missionaries who try to impose their ostensible superior education and culture on everyone. Yet, I worry that replacing one set of ideas and beliefs with another is still very injurious in the grand scheme of things. I suspect that you get what some have said all along; that compulsory attendance is abusive, anti-democratic on its face, and antithetical to education. I believe we have a different view of what being educated means and of how that is inseparable from the need to be free of coercion. You might want to look at a book by Lakoff & Johnson entitled,” Philosophy in the Flesh”. It turns all western thinking and philosophy on its head and provides a perspective on where the paternalistic impetus comes from. It is a revolutionary experience that will leave you amazed, I’m sure. I’ve been reading Ralph Nader’s book about his campaign BTW. It is sad to think that we are unlikely to see any third party or any meaningful political change until a new generation escapes from the servitude of schooling according to the “expertise” of the self-appointed edu-crats.
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American Arrogance! When will we learn?
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Yes, Buckminster Fuller – I haven’t head that name in a long time. Perhaps we should also all reread Future Shock. I wonder how prophetic Toffler was. . .
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Our principal had a vision for the new GT High School, less than three years old, that each student would have an individualized program. Easier said than done, but the first year several students were involved with internships which fit their unique interests. There was also a Saturday class taught by a college professor and some AP classes taught by Skype (with the local City Honors school). I know the curriculum choices were re evaluated, the schedule revamped for a shorter lunch, with an additional class period, plus various electives added (some to be taught on site by Niagara University). In my mind, all schools should offer an individualized curriculum – with certain basics, but more electives. And the universities should be chomping at the bit to be part of the equation. They complain the students aren’t ready – well here’s the opportunity to have a voice in the system. My mantra: Don’t open your mouth and complain unless you plan to be part of the solution.
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And my vision for our high school was a little different. I saw a “traditional” school format on Monday through Thursday, but on Fridays there would be special “programming”. Guest speakers, workshops, field trips, socratic discussions on various current issues, club meetings created to encourage special interests, concerts, plays, talent shows, film viewings, art exhibits, career days, college presentations, literary coffee houses, parent and community participation – a day immersed in enrichment. It didn’t fit into the current educational model. A pity!
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Dear Ms. Klock, I’m not clear on how these threads work when replies are posted to particular individuals. However, when I scroll up, I see my reply to Mr. Shepherd, which I believe quite thoroughly answers your points. Why couldn’t you get your fantastic ideas adopted “into the current educational model”? I do believe they are fantastic, BTW. There are people who have been given immense power who make those decisions and whose focus and goals are very different from yours. They derive that power from the established authority and hierarchy that are essential when state law specifies that all children will attend schools that meet certain requirements and “standards”. You give your consent to that authority and power implicitly when you fail to object to those unconstitutional and un-American laws. So, perhaps it is you who should be quiet if you are not willing to take the constructive action that is necessary to free you from those oppressive constraints and prohibitions which prevent you from implementing your superior ideas. I am not offended that you would tell me to sit down and shut up in effect, because I understand your frustration and I am not trying to tell people which formula of mine is better than the formulae that Arne Duncan or someone else Is forcing on you and your students. However, I can promise you that anytime outsiders are allowed to foist formulae/curriculum on teachers, education will not be the result. Once again; that is only possible because of the erroneous belief that forcing parents to send their children to school will solve the problem of an uneducated population. Coercion is not the solution and indeed, exacerbates the situation. Believe it or not. I will return later with your homework assignment. (That’s kind of insulting and offensive, don’t you think?)
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Barry, I was on the committee for the new high school. As soon as it was mentioned, I came up with a whole page of ideas. I envisioned a coordinator whose job it was to create those enriching events. The principal had his own ideas, which I also liked. Even he has had difficulty implementing his vision. My ideas didn’t fit his schemata.
It was ironic that our highly intelligent principal was so rigid (a type 1 personality ). We had numerous conversations. I had wonderful ideas, but putting them into action was sometimes a nightmare. I started out full time at the middle school, then became part time due to budget cuts and ultimately ended up at both GT schools PreK to 12. It’s hard to create programming when your day is full of taking care of the library needs of over a thousand kids, their teachers, and even their parents.
I worked within the system and around the rules. I arranged for a walking tour around the historic part of town – right where the Pan Am Expo was in 1901. Another field trip was when the eighth grade teachers walked with me and the classes to the nearby Forest Lawn Cemetery where we broke into four groups, forty five minutes each session. The math teacher was an arborist, so we studied the trees, the art teacher did sketching by the pond, the social studies teacher referred to the architecture of the mausoleums, and the science teacher talked about the weathering of the graves and the kids did transfers onto paper. Other years I brought in authors and story tellers. The GT teacher and I took the kids to Tiftt Farms where we did a nature walk. Each group had several cameras to record wildlife. Each child had a clipboard and a check off list to mark observations for a follow up discussion. These are just some of the enriching activities I provided, funded by various Grants I applied for as well as Book Fair profits. What I did over my twelve years would fill the page. And there was so much more I wanted to do. Then again, other teachers planned amazing events. Those children had much more than a standard education.
So I did walk the walk. And I made up my own rules according to my vision of education. (I drove my principal crazy.) Please note – in support of your theory – the attendance at my schools was exemplary (not counting the seniors) probably the best in the district.
And that’s what I want for all children.
Does that complete my homework assignment?
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It is clear that you are a human dynamo and a teacher of extraordinary talent, capability, dedication, and creativity. More people should be like you. But, here is my problem. You defined what education would be for your students. Better you than someone such as Michele Rhee, Bill Gates, or Arne Duncan, I’m sure. However, in my humble opinion, the student should be in charge of defining and designing her or his education. That, of course, is an ideal and not completely realistic in today’s world and probably not in any world that we will ever see. It is impossible when teachers have large groups of students of more than a dozen kids and with budgets that are less than the Pentagon budget. It appears that you were in a location where money and resources were less of a problem than many places around the country and where you did have a degree of flexibility and forbearance on the part of those higher up the chain of command. Nevertheless, the issue is not how wonderful the environment is, or how fantastic the staff is, or whether most students can be captivated and kept around to participate. The issue is that education is a personal possession that is pursued by the individual, and under a hierarchical framework where attendance is not voluntary there will inevitably be a long list of impediments to anything that can be called real educational opportunity in many areas. Being the exception to the rule does nothing to invalidate the rule.
I hesitate to call my insistence on doing away with compulsory attendance laws a theory. I believe that the evidence substantiating the benefits of autonomy and the detrimental effects of coercion and an authoritarian bureaucracy are so incredibly overwhelming as to be as close to factual as is possible. That evidence is ignored, or more often, it is mouthed and cited, while no one even asks why the logical next step is not taken. I have to give you credit for at least making the effort to think about it. If you had asked for homework, then we might be getting somewhere.
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Barry, thank you for your kind words. I loved my job and I did my job out of love. The feedback was great from the students and teachers, but never the administrations. My evaluations were rarely positive.
And there was no money. I wrote a lot of grants and We raised the money or we walked to events. We were located in an amazing spot, right in the middle of all the cultural hub – the Albright Knox Art Gallery, The Penney Birchfield Art Center, Delaware Park, The Buffalo Zoo, the Historical Society, Rockwell Hall (where children’s plays were performed), the local library.
And I stayed in Buffalo because I had the autonomy there to create my own program, while in the suburbs I would be forced into a more structured (rigid) work day.
The curricular freedom of the learner you’ve mentioned is the old Summer Hill model which I also found intriguing. At first I thought my son might have done well with this type of education. He begged to be home schooled even when he was seven. The problem was his idea of home schooling would have been to play video games all day. I probably would have spent more of my day reading books, and not necessarily to him.
My supplement to my kids’ education was providing enriching activities by visiting local landmarks and giving them opportunities for growth. Ballet, horse back riding, baton lessons, gymnastics, sports participation, swim lessons, sailing, boating, fishing, plays, concerts, art shows, etc, etc. That’s what I wanted for my own kids – exposure to life and then they could decide what path to take.
So that’s my philosophy – throw all things against the wall and see what sticks. At the least they have developed an awareness and appreciation of what life has to offer. And my students deserved the same – exposure to the world. You don’t know what you’re missing if you’ve never had it. Some of these kids have no advantages – it’s the city and they’re poor and the parents don’t know (or care) that there’s free stuff out there (like story hour at the library). Thus curriculum. A guideline. An introduction. Some glue so that the wall paper will stick to the wall.
I worked at twelve schools in Buffalo and did my best in each one to provide the school what I perceived they needed from me. To be part of the solution. Attendance was a major issue. When there was no attendance policy in Buffalo, an amazing number of kids stopped coming. That’s one of the reasons they are failing the assessments. You can’t learn if you aren’t in school. Your proposal would result in a continued illiteracy in the urban areas of the country, especially amongst minorities. This would perpetuate a climate of helplessness and poverty. I have been in their homes and poverty sucks. Yet for them it’s all they know. And many have no “glue on their wallpaper” so there is no knowledge to build upon. They have no clue about what they need to know. Their world is BET, arguing with each other, and hooking up with a new guy or girl. Their interests are limited.
Your utopia is beautiful and I want to live there. I just know it doesn’t exist.
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Ellen,
Some of those names you mentioned before sounded terribly familiar. I grew up in Olean, and while I have only been in Buffalo a couple of times other than passing through the airport many times, I am familiar with some of the names. My brother lives in Great Valley and my sister lives in Holley outside Rochester. A few years ago I was in contact with a political group from the Buffalo area and I was quite amazed at the forward thinking progressive attitudes and beliefs that were represented there. My family is much more conservative and religious (evangelical Baptist) and I don’t share much in common with them anymore.
I’m not sure I got across what I was trying to convey to you very well. I am not envisioning any sort of Utopia and I am not a purist or hung up on visions of a world transformed by grandiose ideas. I read Summerhill many decades ago and I embraced the philosophy wholeheartedly, but I don’t see the practices and policies represented there as even remotely possible in the general population, regardless of who is in charge or what happens with schools and other institutions. A.S. Neill was working with badly damaged kids whose parents of some means had given up on them as I recall. The school was a place of last resort and was fairly isolated – in Great Britan. It wasn’t about preparing kids to succeed in a world of work and productivity so much as enabling them to survive into some sort of maturity and maintenance. I have no doubt that many succeeded by our standards, but we have standards that are quite radically separate from those of ordinary Americans, wouldn’t you say?
One doesn’t have to have utopian aspirations to look at the big picture and to recognize that the islands of calm that people such as yourself have created through sheer will and phenomenal devotion are just that. I’ve got to ask who is actually willing to accept the hard realities and who is not, now that you mention it.
The reality is that efforts like yours affect a small proportion of the kids who live in the conditions that you describe. Innumerable others – millions, in fact – are forced to attend schools where the conditions are not only not hospitable or encouraging but where they are neglected, abused, mis-educated, and harmed spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, and sometimes physically. That is the way it has been for generations and it isn’t going to be changed just because the of interminable Happy Talk of enthusiastic teachers and fans of schooling, or because the Polly Annas of school reform or anti-reform keep insisting that it must change. Talk is cheap. False hope is no hope at all for all but a small minority.
The fact is that those chronic conditions that harm so incredibly many kids are the direct and proximate result of the attendance laws and the authoritarian milieu that is a consequence of the laws. Change is blocked on any appreciable scale or for any length of time and the research that recommends change is deep-sixed. Truth disappears into a black hole, never to be seen again, or more accurately it reappears, only to be swallowed up again by that same black hole.
The laws were a fantastic mistake. It’s time to face facts. Schools would no longer be the prisons that they are now if the laws were no longer putting good people such as yourself in a strait jacket. You managed your miracle only through great sacrifice and self-denial. Imagining that most schools might be less like reform schools and more like the one you created is not a wild dream or a vision of Utopia. It is a vision of an America that has long been merely a pretense and an ideal worthy of pursuit. Have a little faith in poor people and try not to suppose that they need missionaries to save them so much as safe havens and opportunities for growth and development minus judgment and superiority complexes.
Barry 702-716-0472
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Barry, I agree with much of what you said. And I am a Pollyanna. I try to see the positive in life, but it doesn’t mean I am blind to reality. Olmsted was only a part of my career. I worked in all sorts of schools with all sorts of kids. In Buffalo, I worked in 12 buildings and I am familiar with the problems of those challenging inner city schools. I’ve also tutored (with district pay) students in their homes and spoken with their parents. I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen the differences between Williamsville, the top school in WNY, and those in the city of Buffalo. My rose colored glasses have turned black.
And the Buffalo Public Schools have not been stagnant. They have tried so many different ideas and programs to help the students better themselves. Some have worked or were at least somewhat successful. Others are still a work in progress. Unfortunately, many have not had the hoped for results measured by test scores. As I lamented, success sometimes cannot be measured until years after the child has left the education system. And a test score has nothing to do with it.
One program was promising. It was a full day summer school program for elementary school students held over four weeks at several low functioning schools. There were small groups of kids in each class with music, art, gym, computer lab, and library. Each grade was given a country to study. I worked closely with the teachers and we developed an enriching experience. I had never worked so hard before – it was intense. The disruptive children were sent home, but otherwise the program was open to everyone. When the following year’s assessment scores went up at that school, I felt proud. I felt I had helped these amazing teachers make a difference. They discontinued that particular summer program because it was too expensive. Sigh!
There is so much more. Too many experiences. Too much I have seen or heard. I base my beliefs, not on what I have read, but what I have experienced. A goal of making education so exciting that children can’t wait for the next school day, is laudable, but rarely doable. The closest I came to that was at the elementary school at Olmsted. Even then, you couldn’t reach everyone.
And creating your own curriculum from scratch is not for the faint of heart. It takes years to develop. A set of standards and benchmarks is a necessary guide as long as there is freedom for interpretation. Some teachers will need the script, others will create their own. There is room for both in education.
Ironically, I read something I wrote at 21 as I began my career, which was still true when I retired at 57. I had stayed true to my vision and never wavered in my beliefs. Although I had my share of turmoil, I kept my integrity and was privileged to touch thousands of lives. It doesn’t get any better than that.
(I’ve been to Great Valley and Olean. My daughter worked for a while at the Salamanca Indian Reservation and currently resides in Boston, NY near Kissing Bridge).
Ellen 716-208-6802
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Ellen,
There are many more things on which we would agree than on which we would disagree, I’m sure. It is apparent that you have had some very edifying experiences and you have unquestionably been a very positive influence in many lives. I don’t want to focus on negatives or disagreements. Nevertheless, I am obliged to be truthful about what I perceive as a degree of rationalization or denial.
You say that success cannot be measured in many cases for years, and I know you must know better, but success cannot be measured, or at least not by anyone but the individual. I think that such statements and your overall tone suggest a role for teachers that is awfully large. I suspect that I may even be hearing overtones of a type of paternalism, or in your case, maternalism. This takes me back to a definition for education that is quite different from the popular consensus. I need to write a book about it and there is no condensed version that will suffice, but I will try to put it into a nutshell.
Teachers who are trying too hard typically see their students as recipients of knowledge, which they dispense with great effort and intentional design. The effect on students is a default position of passivity and a type of dependence that I regard as unhealthy as a habitual frame. (Some of your statements contradict this belief, yet your history and current comments belie the more “liberal” or esoteric notions).
This is within the realm of theory and philosophy and I am more than happy to allow for exceptions, yet I believe that the theory behind my thinking is sound. Education happens when a student takes the initiative and when a student asks questions or seeks to find answers and explanations. This makes the concept of curriculum, and most particularly curriculum handed down by external “experts” completely untenable. Curriculum proposes to answer questions that are created for the student and that are part of a whole framework that is manufactured by teachers and their remote counterparts. It’s nice work if you can get it, but it isn’t education.
School is for fish. Learning happens much more effectively, efficiently, or consistently in private and where the learner is able to contemplate and mull over thoughts and subject matter. Again, the usual question is about basics. However, there are no identifiable basics that can be anticipated for learners. The basics for a two year-old or a twelve year-old are specific to that child and impossible to adequately isolate and analyze ahead of time. I’ve said repeatedly that we cannot do without school and I fully support publicly financed schools, but they do not educate. By definition, they are places where indoctrination takes place. The best case scenario is when they encourage educational opportunities and when students are enabled to take the initiative and ask their questions of competent teachers who can provide appropriate answers. But education is the business of individual effort, most often outside of, or in spite of, school.
School is mandatory because the conviction on the part of 99.99% of the population is that teachers can educate children and schools are the place where they can work their magic. Grains of truth conceal mountains of falsehoods. Some kids do educate themselves and much more of education is autodidactic than most of us can imagine. Still, teachers are absolutely essential. I will never deny that they play a profoundly important role. However, their roles are poisoned and compromised on a grand scale and on a daily basis in the vast majority of schools, due to the law and the bureaucracy and authoritarian framework that it necessitates. I’ve heard no arguments to disabuse me of that belief and dozens that reinforce it. Your frustrations are just more proof.
To the extent that parents feel that their rights are being denied and their culture is being erased by teachers who are missionaries of a different culture in areas of poverty, I am not surprised that they are reluctant to send their kids and that the kids want no part of it. They may even want the same kind of success, but they reject the processes and the trappings that are available. Schools are saddled with such images and perceptions. If they at least had the choice, they could be enticed to take a closer look and to lend their support. Shoving salvation down their throats is certainly not the solution.
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I’ve said repeatedly that we cannot do without school and I fully support publicly financed schools, but they do not educate. [THIS HAS BECOME TRUE] By definition, they are places where indoctrination takes place [TEACHING CITIZENSHIP IS A REQUIREMENT!]. The best case scenario is when they encourage educational opportunities and when students are enabled to take the initiative and ask their questions of competent teachers who can provide appropriate answers [UNFORTUNATELY THE LESSONS OF POVERTY TEACH ABOUT THE HAND OUT NOT THE HAND UP.] But education is the business of individual effort, most often outside of, or in spite of, school. [BY NARROWING TO A COMMON CORE WE REMOVE THE DOORS THAT COULD OPEN]
School is mandatory because the conviction on the part of 99.99% of the population is that teachers can educate children and schools are the place where they can work their magic. [WHEN PEOPLE STOP BELIEVING IN TEACHERS WHO WILL EDUCATE?]
Three thoughts:
1) The deform movement wants the indoctrination.
2) Good teachers CAN and DO work magic when non-educators get out of the way.
3) Samuel Clemens: “Don’t let school interfere with your education.”
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Your comments are extremely interesting and require a lot of reflection. My initial reaction:
First of all, you can’t put the concept of education into one category. The ultimate goal is to create independent learners. My job as a librarian was to introduce children to the tools they would need to be successful. Some were factual – fiction vs nonfiction. How did I make them think about the concept – I would describe a book and have small groups of children physically walk to either the fiction or nonfiction section. The rest of the class would indicate who was correct. But the Dewey Decimal System is full of surprises – Big Foot is in nonfiction. Okay, why? When would we find Bigfoot with the fiction books. How about a scenario where a brand new ship crossed the Atlantic, hit an iceberg, and sank. Of course, they were all crazy about the Titanic. Nonfiction. Now when would a book about the Titanic be fiction? What kind of fiction? Realistic Fiction! This was a second grade lesson.
In the earlier grades I taught them the concept. At checkout they would have to tell me what kind of book they had selected. By second grade we could go beyond and explore what fiction or nonfiction really means – according to context. The goal is to introduce, reinforce, then go beyond allowing them to figure out as much as possible on their own.
And that’s a simple lesson.
Some concepts need to be taught and/or memorized. In Geometry you need to memorize postulates in order to complete proofs. My teacher had shown me how to prove that there can only be one right angle in a triangle. From this proof I could prove countless other proofs and solve many geometric equations. I got a 99% on the Regents exam, because I knew the basics and had learned how to manipulate them to solve problems.
You need all the components to make education work.
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I have read your postings several times. Are you really positing that that all roads to understanding the current struggle, of comprehending the wrap around ‘mean’ streets of ‘reform’ can be traced back to compulsory school attendance laws?
So, that I have captured your ‘thought’ correctly: if compulsory school attendance laws are extinguished, state-by-state, the daily lives of our lowest income citizens, both adult and school age, would be transformed by this new paradigm shift: social, medical, housing, employment inequities (and all their deleterious consequences) would wither away under the onslaught of ‘thinking outside the box’ ?
Say it ain’t so.
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Barry, I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad news. What I am telling you actually is happening. The former Superintendent did away with the attendance policy and the students stopped coming to school on a regular basis. In fact there is an attendance crisis from PreK to grade 12. Many students miss 20% of the school year, but, even worse, there are way too many that miss 30 to 50%. It is so pervasive that as part of the teacher evaluation system, there is a clause allowing for added credit based on student attendance for individual classes. Since the majority of Buffalo’s student consist of poor inner city minorities who cannot pass the required Regent’s Exams because they weren’t in class to learn the material and thus cannot graduate from high school, then yes, the lack of an attendance policy results in continued poverty and social services in Buffalo. And this is not speculation, this is reality.
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It is gratifying that people are paying attention. I doubt that I can give satisfactory answers in this narrow space but I’ll give it my best shot. First to Ellen’s “bad news”. The main criticism I seem to be hearing about common core and testing is that they force teachers to teach to the test and that the canned material is formulaic and not integrated or contiguous with learning that relates to the real world. I am in full agreement. So, why would there be such a problem with kids who miss class a lot and fail to memorize the answers to the tests that don’t measure valid educational content? If you claim that your brand of teaching is not just more filling up of empty heads with stuff that can be tested with these pathetic tests, then aren’t you contradicting yourself?
Was the message that parents and students received when attendance was no longer mandatory for some group in Buffalo that the administration had given up on them? How were they notified and what was the intent? Assuming for now that they hoped that removing the threat of punishment would be a plus and that attendance would increase if the rules were relaxed, I would suggest that much more would have to change to entice kids to attend more regularly. My position has always been, although I may not have stated it here, that the mythology all around will have to change and the thinking about relationships will have to change over time, once the laws are eliminated. If the schools were not seen by students as more hospitable and inviting places, and if they felt as if their personal options weren’t improved or that they weren’t given respect and a degree of autonomy without discrimination, I wouldn’t have expected any other result.
I am touched by all of this concern about the kids who come from poverty, but if you think that you will ever legitimately justify forcing them to attend school or anywhere else against their will in order to save them you have missed out on a whole lot of rigorous social science. I hate to tell you, but the net effect is not so pretty. The Hippocratic Oath should apply here also: “Do no harm”. The schools will be much more likely to adopt changes when legalities do not suffocate and strangulate every new thought and idea. No one has suggested that all of society will be transformed overnight or that the streets will suddenly become paved with gold, and poverty will be the bane of existence for those who suffer its ravages for as long as it exists. Let’s not pretend that poor people don’t see schooling as a part of the apparatus of oppression, cultural bullying, behavior modification, discrimination, and exploitation as it currently affects them.
As a parent and grandparent and as someone who has maintained close connections with many young people and this whole issue, more often visiting schools in affluent areas and knowing students who enjoy many privileges, I have to ask; what education, what reform, and what planet are educators living on?
Reform has taken many shapes and gone through more phases than one can count, yet the changes have done little to enhance the experience of school for the majority of students. There was the movement to reduce regimentation and excessive discipline. There was the revolt against grading and excessive measurement. There was the backlash against “permissiveness” and supposed inadequate discipline and lack of “respect” on the part of students. Parents have always been a convenient target and increasing involvement has been a continual mantra. There have been a million ‘flavors of the month’, every month, in every part of the county. Most recently, teachers’ unions have been the easy scapegoats and teachers themselves have been blamed for every failure. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Let me repeat that I don’t blame teachers for the problems, for the record. But, blaming administrators, federal interference, and outsiders is a cop-out too.
At the risk of sounding offensive again, I have to suggest that teachers can be and often are part of the magic, but there is no magic if the student is not engaged, free of undue pressure or concern, and prepared through a lifelong process of education through living, observing, acting, thinking, and feeling (as in emotion and visceral experience). If teachers get in the way by supposing that they are responsible for performing magic tricks and providing all the knowledge and direction, they take the risk of subverting their crucial mission and role. It is a difficult tightrope act and compulsory attendance laws and their endless consequences remove the safety net and continually push the teachers off the rope. Those who want to do missionary work and to alter the culture for poor people should probably enter the ministry.
Under the best of circumstances, I’m afraid that school does indeed interfere with education. That’s why I suggest that it be focused on socialization, enculturation, and practicalities, and why we need to recognize that indoctrination is a necessary function that should be managed and designed with cautious intention. You are teaching that this is a free country to kids who have no sense of autonomy and none of the liberty that you brag about. Do you believe in democracy, or not? Do you believe that kids are not citizens until they reach adulthood? Do you think that they are prepared for freedom and liberty by spending twelve years following the direction of teachers who themselves are subservient to authorities higher in the hierarchy, thanks to the law? Come on!
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Barry, sometimes you make me laugh, but mostly you give me a headache. I have to digest your comments, but I have a few initial reactions.
I was a good student and I enjoyed school, but I preferred staying home. My son was okay once we got him to school, but he hated going, even in kindergarten. By high school, the only reason he attended was so he could be on the golf team. After October, school was superfluous. I can think of very few situations were voluntary attendance would work (unless the parents institute their own attendance standards).
Sometimes you need to take your medicine – even if it tastes nasty. No School can always be Mary Poppins with a spoonful of sugar.
In order to learn you need consistency. If you can’t add a single digit, you won’t be able to add double digits. If you miss a week of Earth Science lessons, you’ve missed a lot. It’s important that people have a base line of information to make informed decisions later in life. And not all this information is exciting to all people. I could care less about biology, but I am fascinated by US history. Others feel the opposite. Yet, it’s important I know a little about the human body, diseases, etc.
Also, there’s a difference between assessments and final exams. A final tests what you learned on a given topic, an assessment seems to be a way to evaluate a student’s intellectual ability as compared to other students. A final has value in determining whether the student has learned enough of the material to pass on to another subject. An assessment has little value beyond a place value.
Obviously, everyone doesn’t share my opinions. But, I think, others will agree with me.
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Barry, another point – CCSS is not on everyone’s plate yet. There is still worthwhile information being taught in the Public Schools. One problem of CCSS is that it is cutting into valuable lesson time, replacing it with test preparation for the purpose of passing meaningless assessments which cannot be used to improve instructional.
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John, As horrible as it seems, the only way out of poverty is through education, and the lack of an attendance policy will lead to a lack of attendance and thus failure on all levels. Unless you consider a career as a drug dealer a success story.
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Barry,
My particular role as librarian was unique. I developed my own curriculum based on the needs of the students. In the last part of my career, lessons dragged on for YEARS as I scaffolded information from elementary through high school. This is not normal, so I cannot be used as a model. For better or worse, I was both Frankenstein and the monster. I became what I created.
When I was speaking of success, it wasn’t the students’ success I was referring to, but my own personal success. When a student writes to tell you that you have made a positive impact on their lives – it is a check in the plus column. Both my mother and uncle were favorites of their students and received the same sort of feedback. I learned to go above and beyond from their example.
I have worked with all sorts of classroom teachers. You could tell who were the masters in their field. They were attuned, they taught, they exposed, they let the kids create. There were others who were lacking – and no amount of experience would make them better. Actually, for them the scripted lessons would be a blessing.
There’s also the question of compatibility. My eldest had a fantastic English teacher in tenth grade. I was so excited when the next year her sister had the same teacher. Less than a month later, Jennifer had transferred to another class by mutual agreement. Elizabeth was on a rotten team in seventh grade. The teachers were uncooperative, they didn’t answer my calls, and she did poorly. The next year my son had amazing seventh grade teachers. We worked closely together and he had a very successful year. THEY WERE THE SAME TEACHERS!!!
When you write your book, you need to look at all perspectives. Include ALOT of anecdotes. I’ve read books on education, some by famous authors, and I knew they were Bullshit. They just weren’t based on the reality teachers face every day.
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Jim, I agree with you that to a certain extent that schools are an indoctrination center. I’ve had to unlearn a lot of nonsense I was taught as a child.
However, for some reason, here we are on this blog questioning the concept of education and the dangers of the CCSS and high stakes testing. Somehow we must have learned how to think and reason for ourselves. Are we underestimating our youth? Won’t they question authority on their own? Might they not make their own decisions about their beliefs?
I’ve listened to young people discuss life in general and I can assure you they are not lemmings. Let’s not be so pessimistic about the future. Let’s focus on the important issues and smooth their path from the obstacles people like Rhee have set before them. But let’s not worry too much – with our help they’ll come out stronger in the end.
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So rather than protect our young from the perceived dangers we should let them figure it out on their own?
If we take such a laissez faire approach we certainly don’t need to be pessimistic about the future, I’m sure it will be somewhere between Lord of the Flies and Brave New World.
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Jim – those of two of my favorite books. This whole situation does sound like a plot from a bad science fiction dystopian novel. The “Education” Games!
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I hope your use of the word favorite doesn’t mean you favor their message!
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Jim, You’ll have to read my novel to find out.
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Ellen,
hope you don’t read my reply to Barry as directed to you. To the contrary, those who have struggled for years in low income communities know that extinguishing compulsory education laws is the height of folly; a proposal that would sit well with Swift’s modest proposal, guaranteed, in the absence of a real social safety net, or commitment to a common good, to increase the already tragic and most often hopeless loop from school to incarceration, to dead end low paying job, if any job at all. What we are seeing is the planned consequences of a war on low income and urban youth.
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John, after awhile – you forget who you are talking to. However, Barry always tries to be thought provoking. Just when I think I know what I’m talking about, he makes me second guess myself. Ultimately, I believe what I believe – sometimes based on my own theories of life, but usually on the reality of my numerous experiences over the years. Until now, I didn’t realize how diverse my background truly was, but I can say, with confidence, I have seen it all (at least in regards to education).
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Ellen, Jim, John, et al,
Well, I have to admit I am shocked. I am arguing with teachers who have great influence over children and whose ideas are impressed onto young citizens sometimes indelibly, who speak with great zest and zeal almost incessantly about freedom, justice, equality, liberty, and the values on which this country was founded, who have no problem denying those very ideals to those same students!!!! I’m getting ancient maxims such as that “kids should be forced to take the medicine of schoolwork, even if it tastes bad to them”, that school is preparation for life, (therefore, their lives should be suspended and they should endure the same miseries of the adults who work in unsatisfying jobs), that without this training and instruction they will be wild and uncivilized (Lord of the Flies, etc.), and that education and school are synonymous, or that learning what they offer in schools that are demoralizing and authoritarian is better for “certain poor kids” than learning elsewhere. My God. I thought this was the 21st century. What happened to the last two hundred years of science?
“If you miss a week of Earth Science lessons, you’ve missed a lot.” Where do I begin? Of course, one can hardly argue with such a statement. It is unquestionably true. But, I thought we were talking about education. I missed out on most of Shakespeare, most of the great classics, many volumes of history, tons of current affairs, etc., etc. Despite having some fantastic teachers, an uncle who was a certified genius whom I emulated, a family that held education and science in the highest esteem, and various other positive influences, I was mostly disengaged in school and spent my time daydreaming and idolizing Cindy Johnson. She was a goddess.
You decry the war on low income and urban youth, yet you acquiesce in their conscription in institutions where they have languished and failed to succeed for many generations. You reject the facile solutions of the billionaires and number crunchers, yet you want more of the fiasco that has been schooling for about fifty percent of the population since day one. What kind of bubble do you occupy? The great experiment was a massive boondoggle and a disaster. Social engineering via incarcerating children for twelve years best prepares children for incarceration – and that’s where we find a couple of million young people. If you have cancer, radiation might work. If it doesn’t work, surgery that removes the tumor in its entirety is often the only other option. The cancer that is eating away at democracy and education and the spirit of the American people is the system of mass subjugation of children and the repression of the teachers who want to influence them. There is no reason why we can’t still do our utmost to provide educational opportunities, and far superior opportunities in the absence of laws that imprison the mind.
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The post/reply structure is a tad confusing:)
I hand it to you, your care and kindness is manifested in your postings. Even when I sink back into a reactive position of disagreement with you, I never forget from whence you come; and that is a, child centered place, informed by lots of years of passionate engagement. No more need I say on that topic.
I do not find Jim’s positions to be provocative, merely dangerously wrongheaded. What pleases me is that his ideology is not draped in liberal rhetoric: it wears the transparent cloak of the libertarian impulse.
Libertarians hold no posit worth or value in democratic public sphere, in which the marginalized at least have an opportunity – albeit a constricted one – to acquire/learn the critical skills required to be agents in shaping their own lives. As odious and heavy handed and undemocrstic are the Common Standards, lthe half baked thought of extinguishing compulsory education as the one dose panacea to what ails our public schools is simply breathtaking.
If this country was committed to ameliorarating the consequences of a perverse inequity in distribution and allocation of goods and services necessary to lead a decent life, then resource inputs must flow to where they will be efficacious: enlarging the social safety net, creating jobs and raising income of those most affected by our permanent economic disaster.
On the other hand if one committed to a libertarian perspective, with no notion of a common good world view, then less is more, and even that is too much. We live in a contradictory moment of pernicious corporate sharks marching forward with those deeply embedded in a. Delusional model of individual choice.
Reviewing your screed, above, it is abundantly clear that further conversation is a waste of time
Ellen, continue to fight the good fight. You have an unnerving amount of positive and constructive energy. Gratuitous advice: this struggle will be opronged; don’t struggle alone. Alliances are waiting to be formed.
Take good care. This is a fight worth winning.
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John, Ellen, Jim, et al.,
Admittedly, I am becoming a crank in my old age. I should apologize. But, I’m doubtful how sincere an apology would be. Sorry. I find it incredibly presumptuous of anyone to be making a claim that they should judge what is good for parents, poor or rich, and that their brand of enlightenment and instruction is so valuable that it should be forced upon children who for whatever reason want no part of it, or at least who aren’t ready to accept it as pertinent for them.
I’ve been hearing that same sort of paternalistic bunk, elitist blather, and erroneous logic for about fifty years and I am getting less and less patient about the endless repetition. I am especially disappointed after thinking that a reference to Summerhill was an indication of awareness and insight about the relationship of autonomy to education.
I believe that John’s comment mentioning Jim was actually intended for me. I’m not sure what he believes about my positions and philosophy, but if he has labeled me a Libertarian with a capital “L”, I’m afraid he has read much, much more into my statements than was there. I have some libertarian tendencies, primarily with respect to education, however I am opposed to the politics and extremism that typically characterizes that category of cranks. I am not opposed to government, big or small, to taxes, to regulation, to legal processes, or to whatever else the Libertarians object. I do not recommend eliminating schools, defunding them, or putting any restrictions on teaching, educational, vocational, sports, music, art, or other programs. I am militantly opposed to privatization.
Schools should probably focus on job and social skills, hygiene, manners, and various aspects of personal development. But, education is something that elevates individuals out of the demands and adversities of life. Education is much too private, personal, and important for any institution. It is precious, but it is not a panacea and school is not the avenue to the panacea. Knowledge is embodied and it is not transmitted and transferred in the way that John has been led to believe.
The clamor for reform is a reaction to the abject failure of the paradigm that has existed largely unchanged for over one hundred and fifty years. While human adaptability and resilience have permitted a sizable proportion of students to overcome the institutional handicaps with the guidance of many wonderful teachers, as you all undoubtedly are, the authoritarian schools with a majority of reluctant scholars get little credit. That view debunks the mythology of schooling, which is too radical and painful for most people to process. But, when the message reaches a critical mass among the students, watch how quickly that change we’ve been hearing about for over a century happens! Happy Holidays.
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Thank you John. Unfortunately, this is only a battle of words. The real war is being played out and our children/grandchildren are the collateral damage. Some might even say that public education is being devastated by drone strikes.
I do my small part by trying to educate the general public, with the help of my teacher friends. I write letters, I lobby to elect politicians that are education friendly. I read this blog and other articles to keep myself informed. I sharpen my brain by arguing with my fellow bloggers. It’s not enough – I don’t have the power to change the direction we have taken.
However, I support Diane Ravitch and I feel she can make a difference. I urge her to continue writing books and using the public forum to speak out as an expert in the field. I pray for her continued road to recovery and good health. Her authority carries weight and I think people are starting to listen. I just hope it is not too late.
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Barry, I finally understand your problem – you didn’t study enough Shakespeare.
All kidding aside, we really do need to pursue alternatives to the traditional education system for those who are falling through the cracks. One sub group we are failing is inner city boys from the black community. They are not responding to what we have to offer. CCSS is not the answer. They need structure, more hands on, less textbooks, less distraction (perhaps an all boys school ), a true learning environment (maybe even a boarding school), counseling might help, add in recreation (there’s not enough down time in the school day), positive role models, discussion of relevant issues in their lives, relating what they learn to real life situations, and immediate feedback and rewards for their efforts. I’m sure there are experts who can agree or disagree, the main point is we need to explore and/or look at innovations to assist our youth in discovering success (not failure).
That doesn’t mean we throw out the old model. It works just fine – 30% had mastery in New York State so we must be doing something right.
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Ellen,
I’m beginning to think you must be a complete masochist. Please, please, stop torturing yourself trying to conjure up the right formula for solving all of the problems of education. Don’t you see yet, that there is no formula or formulae? I don’t have the correct formula; Arne Duncan doesn’t have the right formula; Bill gates doesn’t have it; Obama doesn’t have it; the Pope doesn’t have it, and even Diane Ravitch doesn’t have it. That is the whole point!
School attendance by fiat presumes that some experts somewhere will work out the right combinations and the right curriculum for not only some kids, but for all kids. Can’t you understand how absurd that is? It isn’t about figuring out why Black males or kids with ADHD are not getting with the program. Obviously, none of the children anywhere in the country and none of the myriad problems should be ignored or left unattended. But, coercion is never the way to deal with children, especially for twelve years non-stop. Pretending that one agency, organization, institution, or other entity will be capable of creating what is needed and making it the responsibility of some hierarchy of authorities and self-affirming experts is the surest formula for disaster ever imagined. That’s precisely how you get to Common Core and all the other arbitrary, capricious, and petty political crap you’ve dealt with in your career!
What does 30% mastery actually mean, BTW? Mastery of what? Who decides? What if you or I disagree? Figuring out the meaning of Pandora’s box was never this ugly.
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Barry – a few points
1) I know there isn’t a perfect solution.
2) I’m not a complete idiot. The purpose of middle school is survival for both the student and the teacher. If they learn a little something, that’s gravy. I’m grateful nobody judged my future on my middle school experience. Preteens are just too unreliable.
3) The 30% comment was an attempt at humor. Obviously a system that only has a 30% passing rate is invalid – or, in this case, the test is ludicrous. And you are right, we aren’t even sure what mastery of the CC assessments represents – definitely not education.
4) The failure of black urban males in our public schools has been an issue which has perplexed me for years. In this case, failure to reach these boys should not be an option. Their goal is to become a major league basketball players – their reality is to aspire to a job at McDonalds, or, worse yet, selling drugs on the street corner. And the problem doesn’t start in high school. These are issues stemming from their early years. Even with excellent, caring teachers, the results remain the same. If there was a simple solution, I would share. I’ve got nothing!
5) Your point, about CCSS being used as an excuse for trying to solve the problem, seems right on the money. We all know that this will only exacerbate the situation – (at least for 70% of the kids). It moves from “trying to find the solution” to “there is only one right solution”. Not going to work.
6) Thank you. I guess I’ll stop beating myself up for things which are beyond my control.
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This has to be brief. I’ve got a million things to do. Here’s the scoop. Since Montessori and Dewey, both who had figured out that education is not filling up the head with facts, information, data, or someone else’s knowledge, we’ve had the benefit of probably no less than a few billion dollars of high level professional research. In addition to educational research, there has been psychological, sociological, anthropological, neurological, and lots of other revealing research. There are all kinds of appropriate solutions and there is no shortage of studies and meta-studies that could provide direction and answers for all of us. This research in many cases is definitive and beyond any reasonable challenge. The problem is that it sits on a shelf, after a brief period of excitement or experimentation with the methods and concepts discovered. In many cases, it confirms what good teachers knew before Montessori and Dewey. The reason that it is impossible to implement what is known and demonstrated very adequately, is because of the structure of our institutions and their built-in resistance to any disruptions of the status quo, any challenge to authority, or any threat to vested interests and the beliefs and myths of those who hold power. Let me repeat myself. It is the compulsory attendance laws that require that the immutable edifice be immutable. The research clearly says that children must be able to exercise initiative and autonomy. The law says that there absolutely must be an established authority to administer and control each and every aspect of each and every classroom, teacher, and student. And, it all has to be rated, evaluated, and certified to justify the expense and control.
You spoke about nasty or bitter medicine. This is the medicine that John, Jim, you, and a lot of others might try taking for yourselves. It doesn’t mean that your work and dedication have been wasted or irrelevant, or that anyone should stop doing what they do to inspire, motivate, and teach kids. However, it does mean that we can do a phenomenally better job of providing edifying and exciting educational experiences for kids. First, we have to set them free and set ourselves free. Democracy depends on it. If kids aren’t free their minds are not free and their bodies are not free and they are not equipped to live in a free society when they come of age. Spread the word.
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Barry, you make some very valid points. We agree on almost everything, except the attendance issue. However, I want to believe. Maybe I’ll go shop at Macy’s today – and borrow their Christmas motto. Happy Holidays.
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Ellen, In other words; the bitter medicine is just too hard for you to swallow. When you finally recognize that the disease is fatal, perhaps then you will be ready to relinquish denial and face facts. Have I referred you to my blog? There is a bibliography or reference list somewhere there that might be helpful. I haven’t checked it for weeks but I’m assuming it’s still available. It can be accessed at: autonomyforall.edublogs.com. Let me know if you try to find it and it isn’t accessible. There are several articles there also that might clarify for you why you can’t get past your irrational fear that the world would implode if kids weren’t dragged kicking and screaming to schools, or if schoolwork wasn’t sugar-coated and sold via high-pressure sales tactics to kids and parents. The issue is not that kids must put their noses to the grindstone and make sacrifices in order to learn what they need to know and to develop discipline in Spartan fashion. The issue is that they MUST be trusted to make that sort of effort, and if they have an environment that is encouraging, rather than discouraging, uplifting, rather than demoralizing, and real, rather than fabricated and improvised by supposed experts, they inevitably will. The question is whether or not you truly have respect and love for children as children, or whether you don’t really like them so much as they are and don’t understand how crucial dignity and autonomy are to the educational process. Self-discipline is not a product of enforced discipline. You already know that. Self-discipline comes as a result of self-respect, confidence, optimism, acceptance, early success, and adequate feedback. Don’t let your fears and anachronistic beliefs prevent you from your own growth and development as a person. It isn’t healthy.
PS: When you figure this out, let Diane know what you have learned. She is hung up on some of the same negative misconceptions and it is harming her health terribly.
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Barry, the website is up and running and I will peruse it more carefully after I’m done with my online shopping and gift wrapping. Life interferes with blogging. You do need to change the headline from weekly articles to occasional articles (you’re a tad behind even for monthly articles).
The problem with your attendance “theory” is it doesn’t work. Many will do just fine, but way too many will be left out.
If Diane agrees with me, I am definitely in good company.
We’ll debate this later.
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NEWSFLASH! There are many being left out now, since many drop out, many get suspended or fail to attend on a regular basis, and many are absent even when they are physically present. But, more significantly, there are uncounted masses who are left out from a sanguine, meaningful, and beneficial educational experience, as victims of a system that is impervious to change or criticism and that is indifferent to the things that matter most to students and to their individual progress, while they are being told they are doing great because they pass tests and complete assignments like good little soldiers. This has been documented a million times in a million ways and places and this destructive war is only distracting from any useful action. I’ve seen firsthand what is happening to these kids many times over decades (including my family members) and it is criminal. They are inept, semi-literate, emotionally and intellectually confused, and they hate books and have trouble thinking coherent thoughts. You are defending a criminal and immoral system because you’ve had good feelings and good relationships with some portion of your classes. Subjective experience and “positive bias” don’t hold up under scrutiny, however. Kids who are filling seats to get federal dollars are being cheated and what is being substituted for education isn’t even remotely useful in way too many cases. Now I’m getting angry again. Maybe a hot bath will calm me down. I only blame the people who should know better and who get paid the big bucks to deal with reality, in any case.
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Believe it or not, Barry, I agree with everything you said in your Newsflash. The first sentence was especially on target for the Buffalo Public Schools.
When I was ten, I realized that I was being sold a bill of goods in school, and that they were avoiding teaching us the reality of life. I had discovered everything in the US wasn’t rainbows and lollipops.
At the age of eight I determined that education was a game that I needed to learn how to play. I knew what to say and do to get good grades. I discovered techniques on how to pass the tests. I separated out my “role playing” in school from my true self. I learned as much from reading books as I did from my teachers – maybe more.
I had excellent teachers in high school that actually did help me learn the truth (we won’t mention the Hell of Junior High). My American history teacher had us read original documents and debate many issues which are still relevant today. I was fifteen when I first heard that women were considered inferior to men. I was flabbergasted.
I have always been an independent thinker. I am open to new ideas, but one of my mantras is: “Just because you say it’s so, doesn’t make it so!” I believe the Missouri motto – “Show me!” So I am listening. I am thinking. I’m agreeing. But I’m not necessarily buying. To be continued . . . . At a later date.
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Ellen,
I’m encouraged again by your honesty. Unfortunately, some people can see proof that other people would find overwhelmingly convincing and still find it beyond their capacity to accept due to a need to believe (the confirmation bias that was mentioned in another post or in an article Diane posted.) It has been shown by good research that people go way out of their way to convince themselves that something they have believed is true, even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary, and even when the new evidence would advantage them personally in a major respect. I can only hope that you and a few others I reach eventually are the rare exception to that fickle tendency.
It might have been Holt, or someone from that era, who said that school does more harm than good. That was a somewhat more innocent time and things have deteriorated since. But, the evidence surrounds us and impacts us daily. A huge number of the kids who graduate from high school, and many who are regarded as the cream of the crop and those who go on to college are frequently lacking in so many areas that it is the stuff of regular stories in the news. There are reliable statistics galore that back up the less scientific observations. Where do you want to start?
For starters, I’ll recommend another great book entitled, “The Insanity of Normality”, by Arno Gruen. If you think the society in which we live is AOK and the race of the rats is peachy, you might not ever get my message. The signs of disorganization and dysfunction are everywhere apparent. Drugs, both legal and illegal are used by people to sleep, to numb feeling, to speed us up, to slow us down, to elevate mood or lower mood, and you name it. We have all manner of conflict from domestic violence to school shootings to a bizarro Tea Party that forces a government shut down for weeks just to be ornery. The richest nation in the world has beggars living on the streets and children who are hungry, homeless, and hopeless.
The Coles Report, the Blue Ribbon national study that was called, “A Nation at Risk” could hardly be criticized as biased or based on bad comparisons to other countries. It identified so many profound problems and deficits that one would have to be living in a fantasy world to deny their seriousness and validity. I’m working from memory, but I believe they were all about lack of literacy, poor skills and lack of knowledge in the STEM cluster, deplorable social skills and emotional regulation, rampant discipline problems and violence, drop-out rates, delinquency, teen-age pregnancy, lack of intellectual curiosity or maturity, unsophisticated language and logic capacities, etc., etc.
It really isn’t fun being the skunk at the picnic. I’m not naturally inclined to be a doom and gloom person, but someone has to deal in the facts. Not everyone believes as I do that education encompasses much, much more than academics, but I don’t think one can talk about education without talking about the whole child. If schooling is mandatory and schools assume/usurp responsibility for education, or even just lesser goals, it follows that they are obliged to not only protect the child in every way possible for six hours a day, but to maximize growth and development and opportunities for advancement and success in the world at large.
Young minds that are inundated with information, data, and facts, few of which young people have been able to anchor to any meaningful concepts or integrate into a fabric of awareness, knowledge, perception, and feeling relative to other things they “know” are cluttered minds. Being able to win a trivia contest or a game show says a lot about a good memory, but nothing at all about education. How many students out of a hundred actually have a coherent framework for knowledge and reach a point where they can process and articulate that framework? The trends seem to be mostly in the wrong direction.
People in my age range characteristically love to indulge in happy nostalgia and often wax eloquent about how much better their education in school was half-a-century ago, but I have been careful not to delude myself. I don’t imagine that we learned more or better somehow back then. I don’t doubt that IQ’s are higher now than they were then either, or that many students are currently superior on average in many ways to my cohort of students from the fifties, or to students in other countries, as Diane has asserted.
However, giving compulsory schooling the credit for the brighter news about kids overall, instead of giving credit to video games, Sesame Street, encouragement from parents, individual ambition and initiative, teachers who break school rules and make phenomenal personal sacrifices, cultural trends, computers and other technologies, ad infinitum, is a bit presumptuous and highly questionable. I know how distressing it is to think that what kids may have learned elsewhere or in spite of teaching, textbooks, and schoolwork is more relevant or authentic than the improvised stuff of the curriculum, but I have to respectfully suggest that there are many better ways and better places to learn what truly matters.
The fact that 30%, or 60%, or 90% of students pass tests and graduate doesn’t impress me much either, when fully half of them are severely handicapped by problems such as, anxiety, insecurity, neurosis, inability to maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships, anti-intellectual attitudes, ignorance about everything from current affairs to scientific advancements, short attention spans, anger issues (due to frustrating injustices, repression, bitterness, and self-contempt), and a cumulative file with too many uncomplimentary or derogatory entries. This last item is a flagrant and unconstitutional violation of the civil rights of child citizens.
Does school reflect society, or is it the other way around? I think it works both ways. We are victims of our own success and prisoners of technology, trapped in traffic alone in cars for hours a day in many cases. We hate authority and pride ourselves on our rigid adherence to rules. I can’t prove to anyone how much damage is caused by sitting in classrooms for twelve years if they prefer to believe that down is up. But look at your neighbors and the way they live. Look at what’s on the Internet and in media. Get students to talk candidly about how they really feel and get a sense of how many are adequate to face the challenges of life. The proof is in the pudding.
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Do you review your postings prior to hitting ‘send’? Your posts drip with arrogance and condescension toward any one who deigns to voice an opinion or experience different than yours: your clear skill is hectoring and lecturing, under the guise of educating; posters deserve better responses than they receive from you.
Whether you ‘like’ it or not, there is a reality that exists outside your head. You seem to believe that you are the sole possessor of truth, right and good. That certain posters continue to engage you, is a testament to the deep well of their tolerance and kindness. They don’t deserve mean-spirited hectoring and lecturing They deserve a simple respect that you are unable or care to articulate.
The struggle against ‘education reform’ is arduous. There is an expectation of lousy ill-mannered behavior from the ‘reform’ cabal, which has, indeed, been well documented To such suffer at the hand of a so-called ally is just plain sad.
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john a – I never know if Barry is sincere in his beliefs or just playing devil’s advocate. It doesn’t matter which is true. The upshot is that he forces us to think through our views and solidify our perspectives. Coming up with rebuttals is a intellectual exercise which helps keep the mind engaged.
While at times I think I’m in over my head – so many of you are truly brilliant and have contributed much to the educational scene – I am grateful to be allowed a voice. My perspectives may be narrower than most, but my responses come from the heart. And on occasion I seem to get it “right”. Thank you all for including me “at the table” – you now seem like old friends. Please keep me pondering.
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Ellen,
It was my intention to respond to your comment separately, but I’ve been swamped. I will do my best to give a brief response now.
There are times when I try to use irony, a dry or subtle sense of humor, or even self-deprecation in my writing and I probably have done those things in comments on this blog. For the most part however, I am as serious as a heart attack. I am not averse to playing devil’s advocate and may also have done that here, but generally, I remain firmly committed to my statements and avoid misinterpretation. I try not to appear dogmatic and I sincerely believe I am not merely spouting a dogma that is only about belief or opinion. Nevertheless, when someone is completely secure in what they believe, prepared to back it up with credible scientific or other proof, validation, or sound argument, and there are profoundly important issues at stake, one should never be too complaisant.
You are 100% correct when you say we can’t all be leaders, at least not at the same time or in the same place or group of people. Yet, I don’t think that is in any way a valid argument against anything that I propose. There is authority based on superior knowledge, status, legal recognition and popular consensus, and then, there is arbitrary authority. Once again, I have to ask if you believe in constitutional principles and democratic values, even for children. I suspect you do in reality. Arbitrary authority is sometimes necessary and may even be lifesaving in critical situations or crises. However, it is not conducive to learning as a rule, or to education and edification, and is normally met with fierce resistance if felt as oppressive, unfair, or illegitimate. If you think that it is possible to have laws that compel attendance and yet somehow keep arbitrary authority from being a continual destructive and disintegrating influence, I’d like to know how you propose to accomplish it in schools on a universal basis, given human nature and the demands of a large institution. The evidence seems to be stacked extremely heavily against such an objective.
John may have bristled at my scoffing at the idea that kids need to be reminded that life is not all peaches and cream and that there will be bad medicine that will have to be taken and hard work ahead for anyone not born into royalty or the family of a billionaire, and even then, life is meaningless without a sense of reality and purpose. I’m not uninformed about such pithy common sense acknowledgements. But, that whole thing in relation to learning and education has been quite well understood for many decades. I don’t mean to insult or hurt feelings and I may have been a bit abrupt in my reminder for the purpose of emphasis, but teachers would know more about this if they weren’t too focused on tradition or convention; platitudes; self-righteousness; mythology, or conformity. It is basic freshman high school psychology. Kids will swallow nasty tasting medicine and work harder than any adult if they have the desire, motivation, self-confidence, resources, models, and opportunities. But, coercion and compulsion are antithetical to each and every one of those things as well as to personal initiative.
I much appreciate your kind words and sincere attempts to get it right. We can all make great sacrifices of time, energy, money and even of our personal or family relationships, but being martyrs in a lost cause is simply wasteful and tragic. If we’re going to defeat the billionaires, hard-nosed business people, and misguided zealots, we must be fighting for the whole enchilada.
Happy holidays. Barry
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Again, Barry, much to ponder.
We are all flawed in some way, but I’m not going to blame this on the education system. And society is filled with horrors. If the world was hunky-dory, we wouldn’t be reading this blog.
My view on education is not as pessimistic as yours. School is just a part of a child’s life – they are influenced by the world around them – a more global place due to new technology. My son just got back from visiting his online girlfriend in Brazil. My daughter’s boyfriend is from Morocco. Those who have, take advantage of their privileged life and are constantly acquiring information and analyzing the world. The poor are being left behind.
And I am in contact with today’s youth. I see life through the eyes of my children and their friends. I read comments from my students on Facebook. (Last night one of my students declared that college was so much easier than high school. I guess he was more than college ready.)
Yes, there is drug abuse, and violence, and even death. Stupidity and human fragility reign. And sometimes we catch a glimmer of reality that rocks our world and makes us look at life with new eyes. A most disconcerting experience, not unlike a paradigm shift.
So I agree with almost everything you say, yet your theory on attendance policies seem out of place. That won’t fix the problems. Nice theory, but in practice, it just doesn’t work. Given human nature, I don’t think it ever will – not in any scenario I can envision. Try to focus your energies on something productive that might really make a difference.
Wishing you the best, Ellen.
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Ellen,
As I quite expected, what I perceive as proof and as truth, you cannot accept as anything but a cynical or skeptical perspective on life in the day of a person unable to change much of anything. In every comment to date, if my recollection is correct, you have found it expedient to zero in on your own experience and you have related numerous stories and accounts that describe what it is that makes YOU believe that children should be deprived of the personal decision to choose or reject school and that it should be legally required in order to do whatever YOU think it does.
We all need to trust our instincts and our experience to the greatest extent possible. Ultimately, deciding for one’ self is the essence of democracy and freedom and life in America. Do you see any contradiction there? You are just elitist enough and paternalistic enough to believe that the philosophy applies to you, but not to others. So, once again I find myself asking; why don’t you believe in America and what it stands for?
Blaming the common liabilities and imperfections of humans on the “education system”, which is not an education system by any stretch of the imagination, would be absurd. Humans have demonstrated their lack of perfection and proclivity toward conflict and chaos from the beginning. But the promise of school was to make things better and to equip citizens better for living. The incredible failures of society AS THEY RELATE TO SCHOOLING are documented as solidly as one could possibly ask.
There are reams and reams of studies and reports and analyses that tie schooling specifically to the problems and behaviors that I outlined. There are bad parents, bad neighborhoods, bad peers, bad religions, and bad politics. But, kids who are illiterate or inept or damaged by destructive school environments are the living proof of failed systems and laws. This has nothing to do with going global or the fact that the world has changed due to technology and “progress”, or social dislocations
The game of “Let’s Pretend” is for very small children. Blaming teachers for the problems is asinine, as is blaming parents or children. But, pretending that the problems are just par for the course, or that ignoring the fundamental cause is an acceptable course for adults because the emotional discomfort of a responsible adult solution is too disturbing is insane.
My religious relatives and others take the position summarized on a bumper sticker I’ve seen. It says, “God said it; I believe it; and that’s that”. Some of them want to tell me and others how they should live. I believe that people who take a position that affects others directly or involves crucial social issues are obliged to defend their position with facts and science, just like the rest of us are. I will never let anyone get away with that kind of sloppy logic and self-deception without calling them out on it. Lie to yourself if you must. But don’t give me that evasive semantic BS in order to justify an illusion.
Living without laws requiring attendance in school was a practical reality for thousands of years. Those laws are very recent on a chronological scale. Evolution is a theory. It has been “proven” to the satisfaction of all sane biologists and scientists worthy of the name, despite the fact that nothing can be declared to be 100% proven in science. If what I propose is a theory, it has been proven already to a similar standard. Mankind thrived for many centuries – centuries – without the state taking children away from parents, except in a few short-lived and unpleasant dictatorial campaigns. The theories that have proven to be badly flawed are the theory that school assures education (oops) and that forcing children to attend is somehow beneficial for them (ludicrous on it’s face).
Control is for control freaks. The only monkey wrench that needs to be removed is the coercive element. What is it about children that you need so badly to control?
Barry
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Barry, what am I to base my opinions on except for the experiences I have had in my own life and observed in the lives of the people who surround me? Perhaps I am blind to the fact that not everybody shares my view. That’s why I listen to you, but I don’t have to drop my own vision and follow yours.
And I suppose I am controlling. But I don’t say anything I’m not willing to back up with action. I consider myself a leader. I’m willing to put myself out there – right or wrong – and accept the consequences. I’m like you – I’m not afraid to speak my mind. And we’ve both earned that right. Actually we’ve been given that right, just because we were lucky enough to have been born in the United States.
So, I am privileged and so are you. And because we have successfully navigated the system we can share our ideas. The question is – can we make a difference? We definitely need to try.
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We often discover new things and much of the time we recognize that what we had thought we knew wasn’t quite in conformity with reality, requiring a different view for those who are honest and growing. There is something that generally trumps our individual knowledge and discovery, which is hard science. As I said, even that isn’t ever 100% confirmable, but it’s far more reliable than simple opinion or observation and anecdotal stories. Hardly a week goes by without a study done under professional auspices that renews or reconfirms the harsh criticisms and scandalous culpability of schools in this debacle or that excessive failure rate. Any single research study or report or even a few might be somehow subject to question. But, after a century of constant controversy and charges of bureaucratic failure and dysfunction and an overwhelming preponderance of scientific scrutiny that is so heavily negative, the only explanation for inaction is denial and powerful forces backed up by law preventing change. The misconceptions about the need to control children have been drilled deeply into our consciousness. You can change your consciousness by being honest with yourself.
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Barry, perhaps some things are too deeply imbedded to be easily removed. I will continue to ponder.
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Ellen,
If I gave you the impression that I thought this was going to be easy, I’m sorry. It will be like pulling teeth in the same way that getting through to the people on this blog has been like pulling teeth. What I see as the upshot from your statement is that, if doing the right thing is difficult, it’s okay to continue doing the wrong thing forever. I know that isn’t Diane’s philosophy, and I’d be surprised if that’s actually what you would ever suggest. You can kid yourself about what the right thing to do is for just so long, and then you have to admit that you have let fear or other emotions obscure your view.
What is embedded is altered by the embedding of something else that not only appeals to common sense and experience, but leads to gradual improvements. Such profound changes don’t happen often or without struggles. But struggling toward something that enhances freedom, democracy, and education beats struggling to repeat more mistakes and to reinforce a monolithic system designed to place limits on children and teachers and to prepare students for a life of conformity and mediocrity.
Barry
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Barry, although I agreed to reflect on what you said, I did not agree to accept your premise.
Conformity is not always a bad thing. We can’t all be leaders – some need to follow.
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Here is the CREW web site devoted to exposing Berman, a true scumbag that makes other lesser scumbags (such as corrupt politicians) look like saints. http://bermanexposed.org/
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This is Barry speaking. I’m having trouble figuring out who is responding to whom at this point. I just saw John A’s comment for the first time and Ellen’s response to him, which appear to be out of order chronologically. For John, I don’t think I can say much to make you happy. You haven’t addressed a single point, issue, or argument on which I have commented or even identified a post of mine that you disagree with or find inaccurate or “condescending”, so it seems you prefer to engage on the basis of ego, personality, or attitude. I have tried to keep personal remarks to a minimum, and while I am brutal with people who seem to be inauthentic or dishonest with themselves because this is profoundly serious business, I try to temper my remarks or make an effort to distinguish justifiable anger and frustration from attacks on any individual. Ms. Ravitch or whomever is the designated monitor for the blog should certainly be notified if I have been out of line or offensive. I have utmost regard and respect for Ellen and others on the blog, but since this particular thread began, it has been mostly her and I answering each other’s comments. She is obviously a very kind and loving person and she hasn’t taken anything I said too personally, judging from her remarks, including her response to you. Sometimes it is necessary to try to analyze (I emphasize the word, TRY) why someone believes what they do or what their frame of references are and whether or not fear, bias, or other emotions are motivating them. Sometimes one makes a judgment relative to the propriety of allowing those emotions to dictate thinking. It isn’t always easy to avoid seeming to be over-critical in expressing those judgments. I have admitted that I have emotions and get exasperated by the failure of people to see certain things that I think are obvious or by the phenomenal repetitiveness of this endless back and forth. You, John might be a young person who isn’t aware of the decades of history of controversy and conflict in this field, or an older person who has been too preoccupied with your own controversies and conflicts to explore the big picture. But, if I am wrong, by all means correct me, or argue on the merits, as Ellen has made a sincere effort to do.
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Ellen,
My last post didn’t quite cover certain relevant points that are too important to leave out. In talking about arbitrary authority it should also be noted that there are huge social implications. Some people believe that humans are born with antisocial, violent, or otherwise undesirable traits that must be trained out or somehow eliminated through practices, such as “breaking the spirit”, undoing the ego or super-ego and remaking it (to suit THEIR purposes or beliefs), and educational methods that involve behavioral and attitudinal elements. At the other end of the spectrum are people who believe human nature is either inherently benign and good, or neutral. Others fall somewhere in between. This is essentially just one aspect of the centuries old nature/nurture dichotomy.
The available science to date isn’t quite as definitive and robust as some of us would like and most people form their own views and child-rearing philosophy irrespective of the science. As you could have guessed, I come down firmly on the nurture side of the debate. I believe I can provide you with scientific research that almost irrefutably substantiates the fact that experiential factors (nurture) outweigh genetic factors (nature) by a wide margin, but I will spare myself the months of hard work and you the embarrassment of being proven to be the real cynic. It is much more pessimistic and cynical to act as though children will be miserable ignorant wretches if not saved by twelve years of domination and indoctrination making them obedient little soldiers.
For educators, the question in any case is what kind of society they prefer. If you think that the political and social conditions that prevail in North Korea, Iran, South Sudan, Cuba, and many similar places throughout history are optimal, then arbitrary authority is your obvious choice. If you like democracy, the less cynical and dramatically more humanitarian authority makes sense.
You may have supposed that, since we live in a democratic republic, we have nothing to worry about. But, since the founding, we have been repeatedly warned that democracy is fragile and can be undermined by myriad influences and a lapse in vigilance. My argument is that children need positive experiences with maximum autonomy and hands-on experience. They need practice with thinking about choices and issues that is personally meaningful and thoroughgoing. They need to feel empowered, competent, and trusted. They need to be allowed to find their own path to becoming informed and knowledgeable about people, politics, life, and social issues. If schools could provide all of these things, don’t you think we would have a voting participation rate that is above the pathetic and a population that understands current affairs and what’s happening elsewhere around the world that doesn’t render them myopic and unsophisticated.
I’ll repeat this again. Kids who are programmed and repressed by twelve years of arbitrary authority can’t possibly be in a frame of mind or have the capabilities and competencies to suddenly become active and engaged citizens in a dynamic democracy. When they are herded like sheep for their formative years, they continue to behave like sheep and are suckers for paranoid nonsense such as appears 24/7 on the Fox Nusiance right wing propaganda channel.
If we can’t create places where children will fight to get in and where knowledge isn’t seen as the wonderful thing that it is, then we have no right whatsoever to demand that children attend the places that we are deluding ourselves about.
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Barry, Ellen, et. al.:hyb=nuq
The ‘physical’ structure of the blog does not faciliate a smooth post and reply format; it sees to be the ‘nature of the beast’ and leads to a certain amount of discontinuty of discussion, which we have to live with.
Our perspectives – social, cultural, political, economic – are informed by both our own individual experieces with public schools and the larger spheres in whch we operate.
As for myself, i spent thirty plus years working at the state and local education levels, i believe that if society is committed to inculcating and nurturing democratic value, which value human agency, social justice and the common good, then existing, then the exisiting perverse income inequities must be ameliorated. essentially, pouring resorces into schools, in the absence of macro redistributions, will not significantly impact the lives of poor and low income communities. Regardless, there remains the inherent worth of supporting and stregthing .public scools and fighting against privitization.
Regarding “compulsory education”, it remains the resposibility of the state to ensure kids go to school. i have no issue with your contentions regarding some of he down sides of state mandate attendence laws. A personal note that you will appreciate: i am a ‘product’ of the New York City Public Schools. I despised the twelve years of my imprisonment. I suffered t the hands of a number of mean spirited, if not sadistic, teacher, who had to ‘teach 35-40 kids in a class, with several kids sitting on he radiators. I ‘zombied’ my way through my 4000 student high school. I picked up sufficient literacy and numeracy skills to earn a graduate degree. What took far longer to heal soul crushing factory school culture. I don’t ascribe blame to the attendance laws, rather to teacher with a severely limited understanding of what kids need to learn..
So, ‘youse’, a deep, probably unbridgeable philosophical and political divide separates us. What we share is a common enemy. It is worth while to support that commonalty. Given the enemies’ current strength, we need all the help we can summon.
There has been enough space, time, misunderstanding, and energy expended on the current topic. Time to move on.
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John,
I started this thread about two weeks ago by trying to move on. I said in effect that I was giving up because of the constant reiteration of the same things and repetition of the same errors. Every time I have posted a comment I told myself that it would be my last, because I don’t have time to waste spinning my wheels, reinventing the educational wheel, and fighting battles that cannot be won, because that common enemy we are fighting has not been properly identified in this blog space. I got some responses that gave me a sliver of hope and some that simply could not go unanswered and here we are again. This time, I’m sure I will be able to cut it off and move on as originally intended.
But, there are two things in your commentary to which I MUST respond. One is the gross contradiction in terms, or the ultimate oxymoron that I find obnoxious, offensive, and ludicrous. That is the term “compulsory education”. I have to give you an “F” and suspend you indefinitely for using that term. Let me say it one last time. If there is compulsion, coercion, or even the threat of punitive consequences for non-participation, education does not and cannot occur.
However you define education and whatever else is actually happening under those circumstances, the two concepts are antithetical. That means that force is inimical to education. That means that learning that takes place in that context, even if it is beneficial, gloriously wonderful, rewarding, everlasting, and positive in nature, is NOT education. Sometimes something learned within that context becomes a part of one’s education due to its integration into the learning that takes place in the absence of coercion. Indoctrination or things learned in socialization and enculturation may be appreciated and useful today or sometime in the future and I do not rule them out as all bad. But those experiences in an authoritarian atmosphere are tainted and one cannot even call them mis-education or bad education. They are merely something foreign to education. Context matters a great deal and education denotes the pursuit of learning through personal initiative and voluntary engagement toward personal goals.
The other point is that you can change the subject if talking about compulsory attendance makes you uncomfortable or if you disagree that it is a fatal flaw. You are a free agent, it’s a free country, and I have no need to continue to be a fly in everyone’s ointment. I will gladly go away. However, that IS the subject, whether you know it or not. Those sadistic or abusive teachers and the difficult learning circumstances you faced in your experience were only allowed to continue BECAUSE of the laws and the vested interests of virtually everyone in a corrupted system. Without the laws, you would have seen profound change before you got to second grade.
Diane Ravitch and others like her cannot help but figure out in due time that all of this stuff about common core, testing, charter schools, etc., etc., is a superficial distraction, a variation on an old theme, and nothing new at all. You will be hearing a great deal more about it whether you want to or not. You can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic all day long, but the ship is sinking and that gaping hole can’t be patched up with chewing gum and band aids.
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