This question comes up again and again, and different studies reach different conclusions. Typically, TFA teachers get better than usual results in math, but not in reading, which is less susceptible to test prep and more influenced by home life.
Mathematica Policy Research released a new study today, saying that TFA and TNTP teachers get better results in math than traditionally prepared teachers. But Dana Goldstein analyzes the findings and learns that the headline oversimplifies.
For one thing, the gains were modest: “For the average child in this study, who scored in just the 27th percentile in math compared to her peers across the country, having a TFA teacher will help her move up to the 30th percentile–still a long way off from grade-level math proficiency.”
For another, the study shows that experience matters: “The bias against first-year teachers is borne out in the data. The students of second-year teachers outperformed the students of first-year teachers by .08 standard deviations–a larger gap than the one between the students of TFA and non-TFA teachers. And even though TFA recruits did well in this study, that doesn’t mean teachers reach their pinnacle after two years on the job. To the contrary, the researchers found that for teachers with at least five years of experience, each additional year of work was associated with an increase of .005 standard deviations in student achievement. ”
And Goldstein notes that 89% of the TFA teachers in the study were white, which causes concern because there are many reports of urban districts losing teachers of color, especially African Americans. That may be as big or bigger a problem in the long run that a few percentage points up or down.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Who really believes this bs?
Believing it is one thing; endorsing it because it supports your agenda is something else entirely.
How do you tell the difference between someone disingenuously promoting an agenda, and someone so consumed by the ideology that no level of research will burst their brainwashed bubble?
The second one looks like your avatar????
Let’s all race to have our children (and grandchildren) taught math by TFA recruits!
There is no functional difference between a 27th and a 30th percentile. To make the claim that 3 points indicates more math knowledge means some researchers at Mathematica can’t see the forest for the trees.
TFAers are the Excellentest, Best and Brightest at scabbing, that’s for sure.
Read the entire article accessed by the link provided in the above posting.
No surprise that the measurable gain is based on standardized test scores. This despite the fact that standardized test scores are inherently imprecise and very limited in what they can measure and tell us. And even on their own terms, the gains are hardly earthshaking.
In an article in the LATimes, 8-29-13, Teresa Watanabe made a very good point re the use/misuse of the scores on high-stakes standardized tests when she used the phrase “are widely viewed as” rather than simply “are” when discussing academic performance in California’s public schools:
“The achievement ratings, called the Academic Performance Index, are based on a 1,000-point scale compiled from standardized test scores. They are widely viewed as a comprehensive marker of school quality, affecting property values and triggering penalties, among other effects.”
Link: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-api-scores-20130829,0,447246.story
Unless the Mathematica Policy Institute can do better than standardized test scores, this is nothing more than making a mountain out of molehill, and a very insubstantial molehill at that.
“He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts – for support rather than for illumination.” [Andrew Lang]
🙂
I would like to know how many TFA and Traditional teachers were used in the research. How long was the study conducted. Being a Math teacher, I tend not to put to much stock in these types of studies because you can make the data say whatever you want.
AMEN!
Well, traditionally, elementary education degrees focus on reading/language arts/spelling, not math. Traditionally, a lot of women didn’t go into math as a field of interest. It has changed in recent years. When I got my masters degree, I asked the department if they had a math emphasis degree. They didn’t, so they created one for me and a few other girls who decided to go that route. So, it probably makes sense that TFA might be a little better with math than reading. Math is also something that can be taught with a finite set of rules. It isn’t as open-ended, at least not in the basic parts of mathematical learning. So many early elementary teachers “love books” and love fiction, reading, etc. I was always equally interested in non-fiction history, culture, science, and other topics, not just fiction. It makes a difference in teaching perspective and pedagogy.
Your post is completely nonsensical. Elementary teachers are generalists, or didn’t you know that? Judging from your post, you don’t seem to know. Elementary teachers have to take math courses and math methods courses as much as reading and language arts. They also have to take courses in social studies, science, the arts, PE, and so forth.
Only secondary ed teachers specialize in specific subjects.
Excuse me. It is NOT nonsensical and I resent your implications. I most certainly know what I am speaking of. It may have changed somewhat since I got my masters in 1979, but at that time, teachers traditionally did NOT focus on math in the elementary grades. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken. I said it may have changed somewhat. But, I went to Miami University in Oxford, OH, and they created the degree FOR me. Don’t you call me names when you don’t know of what you speak. It has been a consistent fact that even though elementary teachers are “generalists” as you say, there is not enough TIME to thoroughly focus on ALL areas of the curriculum. The teacher ed departments in all of the areas where I have taken post grad course acknowledge the same thing. I have and Elem Ed degree grades 1-8, with a specialization in elementary math grades 1-9 and an Elem Masters degree in math grades 1-9. There has definitely a greater focus on language arts for elementary teachers in every situation with which I have been associated. And I have interviewed many candidates for positions. I might add that most of the professional development provided is in language arts, not math. At our district, we never had math professional development other than when we adopted a program.
But, I waste my time trying to convince you, since you have chosen to be insulting.
OH, and I have taught 29 years and have been a principal.
Perhaps this (primary education teachers being generalists) is part of the problem with student math performance coming out of elementary schools in the U.S. Of all of the elementary school teachers that I know, very few of them even like math, much less possess the ability to, not only teach it well, but help students to learn like it. Kids are smart. They can tell if you don’t like something. If the students see that the teacher doesn’t like math, how is that going to affect their views of it and the amount of effort that they put forth into learning it? When I went into public high school in the early 2000’s, I was shocked by how many of the students weren’t even ready to take algebra 1. It was a good 80% of the freshman class. You’ll always have a few students who don’t like and/or aren’t good at math and/or who have home issues and the like, but 80% of the freshman class not even being ready to *start* algebra 1? That says a lot about the preparation and encouragement that the kids are getting to pursue math during their elementary and Jr. High years.
Students who want to pursue the fields where the job growth is in America right now – engineering, math, science, and technology, especially, but also medicine to a somewhat lesser extent – need to complete *calculus* before they graduate high school or, at the very least, pre-calculus. That’s kind of hard to do when you’re spending your freshman year in pre-algebra. As a professional engineer myself, I would recommend that students who seek to pursue engineering take calculus 2 before they graduate high school if at all possible. When I was in public high school, I was actually actively *discouraged* by the councilors from taking calculus in high school, even though I was making very high A’s in all of my math classes. Thankfully, I was smart enough to ignore their advice and that was an enormous benefit to me when I got to college. If you’re not ready for Calculus I (or, much more preferably, Calculus II or III) by the time you start college, you’re already behind if you want to get a degree in engineering, math, science, etc. People in these fields will be needing to take classes that heavily rely on calculus II at least by the beginning of their sophomore year, if not even during their freshman year. It is vitally important that we do a better job of getting kids the math background that they need in elementary school, so that they’re ready to take the courses in high school that they will need before going to college. A student who has only taken through algebra II and geometry in high school will be woefully unprepared for college in any of these fields.
😦 Maybe in the old days, math is taught with a finite set of rules; now, one has to elaborate, describe, illustrate and detail their thinking which may or may not be sound to tell how they arrived at an answer which may or may not be correct.
A whole lot of wasted time with more chance of error than simply teaching those nasty little “tricks” that the Common Core is seeking to expose for their fraudulent claim of proving a child knows math.
CCSS Math is total chaos
Ya know this will sound trite, but. . .I was cleaning out my closet tonight and thinking about TFA like the Goodwill. Goodwill takes donations, hires cheap labor and the CEO makes a lot of money. Should high end retailers feel threatened because people buy their clothes at the Goodwill? To me, TFA is like the Goodwill. You might go there when your budget is tight and find something fun, but ultimately is it really a threat to buying new things?
I am sure I am trivializing the threat people see of TFA hurting the profession of teaching. But are we truly keeping things in perspective? Is it really a realistic threat that a powerhouse will one day staff all American schools? Is it a threat that one day everyone will shop at Goodwill?
(For the sake of conversation. . .)
They’re scabs. Period.
Thankfully, journalists are now questioning these “studies” and not just accept them at face value.
Look at the faculties at elite public and private schools. No TFAs there. Parents wouldn’t stand for it.
Linda, look at the faculties at elite public and private schools. They aren’t TFAs, but they are students from the exact same institutions, with remarkably similar backgrounds and skill sets. What you in fact see is that most parents of elite schools *demand* TFA-like educators.
Here are a few random examples from New England prep schools:
http://www.kua.org/podium/default.aspx?t=130119&rc=0
http://www.exeter.edu/academics/72_faculty_list.aspx
At Exeter, press “CTRL+F” to search for 2011-2013 teacher appointments. Their undergraduate institutions are:
Trinity, Cornell, Cornell, Harvard, Michigan, Oberlin, Wellesley, Cheney, SUNY, Penn State, Bard, Smith, Tufts, St. Olaf, etc. etc. etc.
I could go on, but the trend is pretty clear. At the most elite prep school in the country, they hire young grads from prestigious universities often *without* education degrees to teach at institutions where parents are spending tens of thousands of dollars annually for the very best education for their kids.
I am a recent graduate of an Ivy League institution with many peers who are currently in TFA or are alumni of TFA. If I had to blindly choose between an *average* teacher at a struggling public school with an *average* TFA teacher for my children, sight unseen, I would choose TFA every time.
Ask yourself how you would choose based on what you know about the quality of the schools and faculty at the places where TFA works. And if TFA was indeed ruining an inner city school, wouldn’t it be ideal if the parents could send their kids elsewhere?
Why would you choose TFA? Don’t you want your children to have veteran, experienced teachers with actual training?
One obvious difference that you omit is that while many of the teachers at elite private schools went to elite undergraduate institutions, many of them also have one or more postgraduate degrees (MA, MS, MAT, etc, , with a good number of terminal degrees as well).
They are not the same as the TFA crowd. The faculty at an elite private school has education, experience, and credentials that go far beyond 4 years of college and a 5 week crash course.
And in many cases, the fresh college graduates without an advanced degree (the actual equivalent of a TFAer) are hired as “teaching interns” – not a teacher, but an intern, with limited teaching responsibilities, and a faculty mentor.
Can someone explain why there is such hostility towards TFA? Is there data to suggest that they replace teachers who are out on strike? Are they paid more than existing teachers? Are they showing up outside of very challenging schools in large cities or where it is difficult t find teachers?
James, look again at the faculties at elite public and private schools. Yes, many of the teachers are from excellent universities but they are also prepared for teaching. Primary teachers are often graduates of Teachers College and Bank Street. High school teachers often have doctorates and years of experience. The teachers in the affluent public schools are almost always have clear credentials. There are no TFA teachers in these schools.
After my own son graduated from Harvard, he visited my first grade class on several occasions. I never left him alone with the class for one minute because he would have been totally lost. Being a Harvard graduate with a bachelor’s degree might make you well educated, but you are still not a doctor, a lawyer or a teacher.
For over fifty years we’ve been sending the least qualified teachers to schools populated mainly by poor children of color. Let’s put a stop to this shameful practice today.
Today I started a petition to require a fully certified teacher for every classroom in California. Please support fully prepared teachers in your state.
@Lousiana
I would choose TFA based upon what I know of the “average” public school teacher versus the “average” TFA teacher. I would trust my kids more with the average TFA teacher. It’s not a question of whether some public school teachers are better than some TFA teachers, or vice versa; the answer is obviously yes to both.
I did undergraduate work in public economics and all of the social science literature suggests that in terms of *what we can measure* in student outcomes (future income, graduation rates, scores), teacher credentials are useless, and experience is useful up to a point; teachers tend to plateau after their first 3-5 years, some at a high level, some at a low level. As such, I value experience, but only insofar as it connects to their energy, proficiency, heart, and commitment.
@Bill
http://www.nber.org/digest/aug07/w12828.html
Very true, many teachers from these elite undergrad institutions pursue advanced degrees. But these don’t make them better teachers (in a way that social science can measure); they do get paid more for them. And as high quality teachers, they care about their craft and seek to improve it and enjoy these educational opportunities. It’s not clear that the answer is, “Credentials make suitable teachers for elite schools.” as much as “High quality teachers, whom elite schools recruit, like to get credentials over time.”
At the lower end of credentialing, you see more of an impact (emergency vs. traditional licensing for example) but I think this is more an endogenous indicator than a treatment effect. If you are bright, motivated, and passionate (i.e. good qualities for a teacher) you won’t generally be entering teaching on an emergency license from a noncompetitive university.
Some are “teaching interns” but some are full lecturers in English and History departments. I have two friends at Exeter and KUA – their first year out of college, one in science and one in English, both teaching with no advanced credentials or degrees.
One cannot look at that and say, “Elite parents demand teachers with credentials and years of experience, and would never stand to have their children educated by TFAs.”
A more reasonable take is, “Elite parents demand great teachers, many of whom are credentialed and experienced, but some of whom are young and inexperienced. Elite schools produce a lot of great teachers; obviously, not every elite graduate is cut out for teaching. We should celebrate every time a great teacher gets in a classroom, regardless of how experienced or how credentialed they are.”
James:
You said:
We should celebrate every time a great teacher gets in a classroom, regardless of how experienced or how credentialed they are.”
I agree but I would add, in fairness, “or where they went to school.”
Nicely crafted piece. The open issue for me remains, however, how well TFA teachers manage in their target arena: inner city schools.
Bernie, thank you for that addition; I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that great teachers can only come from elite schools.
Studying economics taught me to think “on the margin” – to see that utopian grand solutions are rare, and that we should celebrate the accumulation of diverse, small improvements even as larger problems persist.
I would be shocked if TFA was a miracle cure for any struggling school. There is so much brokenness in these communities and there are multi-pronged problems of inter-generational racism, crime, poverty, fatherless homes, culture, poor administration, etc. I won’t reject anyone who can step in and make a positive difference.
James:
One of the great strengths of Diane’s Death and Life of the Great American School System is that it does a compelling job debunking magic bullet solutions. Alas magic bullet solutions plus the status quo are the easiest to sell politically.
I also was trained as an economist and by the likes of Joan Robinson, Nikki Kaldor, etc. Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem remains a touchstone for me in discussing social issues and potential solutions. That and the need to think incrementally yet to truly go beyond short term solutions.
Bernie, I just ran across this post from Edushyster that may help you in your quest for info on TFA in the inner city: http://edushyster.com/?p=3191.
2old2tch
This looks interesting. Many thanks.
Linda,
Does your petition call for fully certified teachers in private schools?
Wow, this is one nasty, offensive and unprofessional string.
TFA was an excellent idea that has been warped beyond recognition. Yes, they are being used to take veteran teachers jobs. At the same time Chicago has been closing neighborhood schools and laying off veteran teachers, they have been opening charters and upping their TFA teachers. There is extensive information on TFA on this blog.
2old2tch:
Are there numbers for Chicago ? Presumably the Union has been keeping track?
Maybe one of our Chicago teachers will steer you. I am in the suburbs and follow local blogs and news.
Bernie, I can’t speak for others but I dislike TFA because it perpetuates the disgraceful American tradition of placing the least qualified and experienced teachers in our most challenging schools. It also reinforces the false belief that “anyone” can teach. Few beliefs hurt education more than this one.
It’s time to place a fully qualified teacher in every classroom. Let’s have high standards for entry into the teaching profession and then uphold those standards. Let’s stop the shameful practice of granting “emergency” credentials to teachers of poor children.
Linda:
I agree. It seems both odd and counterproductive to send the least qualified into some of the toughest teaching assignments in the US.
At the same time how does one solve the problem of getting qualified, competent and experienced teachers to take these very difficult inner city assignments?
And, Bernie, that is the problem. How DO we get experienced teachers to tackle these tough schools? They are quite frankly AFRAID to go there. Whether it is fair or not, it is the case. I know of elementary schools in the Cincinnati area that require teachers to have a custodian to escort them to their cars after dark or where teachers must leave at a certain time for their own safety, particularly young women. It is a big challenge to someone who is unfamiliar with the environment. However, TFA teachers have the same difficulties. They are just able to leave whenever they wish since they have no aspirations to being a low-paid teacher for the rest of their lives.
Bernie,
Obviously this is a topic on which you need to do more of your OWN research. There are many studies you can find with Google. Time to roll up YOUR sleeves and get informed. Good luck, there’s a lot of info out there to wade through.
Tracy:
I have rolled up my sleeves. I am looking for data, for example, on the demographics of those teachers in Chicago who were let go this summer in response to the budget issues. How did these 1000 teachers compare to the population of 24000 teachers in Chicago as a whole? Were they more senior? More certified? As I said elsewhere on this thread, I would have thought that these kinds of facts would have been front and center.
That said, the comment you referenced was driven not by an absence of knowledge on my part but by the animus displayed by a number of the commenters towards those involved in TFA and even among themselves.
In 2004 Mathematica Policy Research did a similar study and came to a similar conclusion. The study had so many holes in it you could use it for a sieve. That study found that TFA corps members’ students achieved 17% in math compared to 14% of students of other teachers in the study. Reading scores were the same, a paltry 14%. You and I may look at that data and shake our heads — pitiful. But TFA has a way of making a silk purse from a sow’s ear. They used that result to tout TFAers as superior to even veteran teachers, raising hundreds of millions of dollars in the past decade.
The current study was paid for by you and me. We paid $5 million for it. It was funded from the DOE i3 $50 million grant awarded to TFA in 2010. This new study seems to be a rehash of the old one. Only the percentages have risen to make TFAers look a little better, but the results are still pitiful. I’m sure TFA plans to turn this study into millions more. Mathematica Policy Research is, or has been in the past, funded by the B&M Gates Foundation that also funds TFA. No conflicts there. You might say that Mathematica Policy studies are the best research money can buy.
At this rate, in another three decades, TFA “teachers” may bring their students all the way up to 60% — or passing.
A TFA teacher does not walk in and begin teaching without the help of a Veteran teacher.
TFA’S KNOW MORE THAN THEY UNDERSTAND!
I started to read the Mathematica study only to find some serious flaws in the design. The “traditional” teachers used as a comparison were not necessarily teachers who had been trained in traditional degree programs. Forty-one percent of teachers matched to the TFA teachers came from other alternative credentialing programs. Twenty-seven percent matched to Teaching Fellows were from other alternative programs. In addition, TFA recruits were more heavily concentrated in middle schools and Teaching Fellows were more heavily concentrated in high schools. I’m sure Mercedes could do a much more thorough job than I have. This information is contained in the Executive Summary.
.
The critique of this study definitely needs more expertize than I have. I should have read the entire summary first. I still have many concerns but am not the one to articulate them well.
NO!
Except until they teach for at least 10 years and then maybe.
Who is to say which teacher is “better” than the other? It is possible to have a teacher with little experience be better than one with 20 years of experience. It is possible for a TFA to be better. Is it assured. NO. And, the evaluation of teachers is just as random. One year a teacher might be better than another year: different students, class size, personal health, stress, deaths in the family, divorce, children’s problems, students’ problems. WHO KNOWS? One year one teacher may seem better than another. Then it changes. Different parents have different opinions about the same teacher. Test scores don’t do any more accurate job of determining this because they measure ONE moment in time.
So what do we have to complain about? The TFA teachers who don’t have to be evaluated and fired through their student test scores have an advantage. There are no guarantees. And, TFA teachers don’t plan to make it a career. There is a totally different mindset when someone is hired as a stepping stone to higher salaries at Goldman Sachs than there is for a person that plans to work their entire life to be part of children’s lives in the community. There is no way to compare.
I am disgusted with this entire mess created by privitizers.