This post turned out to be controversial.
It is the view of one teacher.
Other teachers disagreed, and i printed their views too.
This is my view of the role of parents: .https://dianeravitch.net/2012/08/16/what-i-think-about-parents/
The State Commissioner of Education John White memorably said in defense of school vouchers: “To me, it’s a moral outrage that the government would say, ‘We know what’s best for your child,’” White said. “Who are we to tell parents we know better?”
This Louisiana teacher disagrees. She says that parents should expect professionals to know what’s best when it comes to education. She says that parents and teachers should work together, but that it is irresponsible to assume that parents always know what’s best for their child.
I am tired of this attitude about parents knowing what is best for their children. Parents are easily swayed by politicians, talk show hosts and preachers. They rarely understand how schools work unless they are teachers themselves or have relatives who are teachers. If their child broke his leg they would not try to fix it themselves even if they did not have health insurance. They would take the child to a health care professional. So what in God’s name is wrong with taking your child to an Education Professional? This debasement of teachers and deprofessionalization of of K-12 education has got to go before we get a whole generation of uneducated, dysfunctional adults.
Certainly they should have a say and be part of the decision making about the child’s education but parents also starve, beat, tie up, and rape their children. They also spoil them rotten and don’t expect them to do anything and teach them that they are “entitled”.You have to have a license to drive a car, for your dog, and to practice most professions. No license is required to be a parent. I have also seen parents demand inappropriate programs for their child and not accept the truth that a child with a 30 IQ should not be mainstreamed into a college prep program. I had a parent swear that her multihandicapped son could rollerskate when he could not even turn over on his own. But I had to clean dried feces off the little boy’s butt.
I agree that some school programs are bad. They have no vision for the children’s success. They think poor kids are in a pipeline to prison. I have known some bad teachers, some lazy, some incompetent, some functionally illiterate, two drunks and some just not bright enough to teach. But at least 95% of teachers do their best and are competent and do better as they get experience. Some of the best teachers I have known started as paraprofessionals.
Programs may be inadequate or inappropriate for some students but that is not the fault of the teachers but of the politicians and upper administrators. That is part of why I stayed in Severe/Profound. I could pretty much do what I wanted because most people thought my children could not learn anything. I could keep away from the politics pretty well until I came to Louisiana. But this place is a mess from hell.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
FYI, John White is a former associate of Joel Klein’s in the NYC school district. Another opportunist who lectures us on what is best for children.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/crazy-facts-students-will_n_17580
How about some outrage from Mr. White about this? Would he send his children to a school which teaches that people and dinosaurs lived on earth together?
Link not working.
Do parents always know what\’s best for their child….no, not always. And there are too many parents who won\’t make the effort to love and nurture their child. But as a mother of a now young man with a disability, who might have been considered \”severe/profound\” while in school, I am frightened by the statements above.
I don\’t know the teacher and won\’t make judgments about her/him but my observations are that s/he wouldn\’t have been a good match for my son as a teacher. And therein lies the rub: how do teachers and parents work together? My complaints about teachers would mirror the complaints about parents: lazy, cold, mean-spirited, unwilling. When I expected professionalism, I got childishness.
Yet, as a person who spent more time with my child than any other adult, I was ignored. Ignored until i got ticked and said no. It was funny that I learned to say no, like a two year old, to get the attention of staff and the permission to cooperate with staff who taught me a great deal about my child and about the education process.
I am no saint and do not know how to translate saying no to a program or plan for better communication between staff and home. I am aware that many teachers just thought I was a hindrance, a nuisance and had ridiculous hopes and dreams for my child. I am not sure if that attitude was taught in the teacher training programs, learned at the knee of another teacher mentor or the result of hard won experiences but the attitude was there.
John White\’s comments do not soothe my worried brow. He is engaging in the us against them strategy of community participation. Pitting parents against teachers, he will destroy what should be a natural union of parents and teachers. Personally I don\’t think the man has an aim or a goal in mind, just a politically polarizing position…..and he is in over his head.
I’m not satisfied with the way this question is being framed; sometimes just taking an opposing stance to a bad argument isn’t correct.
Although parents don’t always “know what’s best” for their child, there is overall no safer repository for the child’s rights and interests than in their hands. Guardianship is a fundamental obligation of parents, as much as a “right”. The first principle for legal defense of children is respect for their families, because there actually isn’t anywhere children can be put which is capable of meeting their needs, or is safer for them. Sometimes the law has to step in and override the parent’s obligations, in instances of parental neglect or abuse, but that’s a grave step, which calls for utmost diligence and many counter-checks to prevent abuse by careless authority. Most parents I know would give their lives for their child, and call it a bargain.
The question of authority in the schools must be framed in those terms. Is psychoactive medication “best” for my child, even if it makes him easier to handle at school? Do the district’s attendance policies warrant their filing a legal CHINS order, and removing my child from her family?
My own district once threatened to file a CHINS on a sixteen year old student of mine, with cerebral palsy, because her mother failed to get her down the stairs in time to meet the scheduled pickup stops when the girl had her period. The solution of modifying the bus pickup schedule would have been too expensive, so this accomplished and delightful child was quaking in shame and terror, afraid of being taken from her low-income immigrant family and consigned to a group home.
Here is this morning’s heart-searing update on the inhuman “school to prison pipeline” professionals determined was best for Mississippi children:
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-08-10/us/us_mississippi-juvenile-justice_1_juvenile-detention-detention-center-civil-rights
Let’s refine our analysis, so we hold to the concept that professional educators can offer a public program that meets the needs of children and the obligations of society to assure a solid program. If parents find it fails their child, lets give them respectful recourse to the courts to modify the offering.
On the other hand, if parents wish for specific private facilities for their child’s education, they don’t have any automatic right to demand tax revenue to support that program. Within that framework, exceptions can be individually crafted. I would have been prepared to testify for my own students special need, if my district hadn’t relented.
“I’m not satisfied with the way this question is being framed; sometimes just taking an opposing stance to a bad argument isn’t correct.”
I agree. Were the institution of public education not under attack, it would be the tyrant.
First, as a matter of principle, we need to be teaming with parents to provide choices for kids and to develop their gifts. Second, by playing the expert card, we open ourselves to attack by power, which pretends to be the parents’ advocate.
Well put, Chemtchr…it’s not an either-or situation. The question is framed as if ONLY parents know about their children and no one else should have any input. I wonder how that phrase would go over in the medical community…
Very nice comment. Thanks for injecting some nuance.
Parents don’t know jack about education or schooling. If they did, there would be no need for schools and schooling.
Teaching and education is best left to us, the professionals. We spent many years working and learning, and yes, mr. white, we DO know what is best for kids, in terms of education.
After 63 years on the planet, with 40 of those years dedicated to the care and education of children, I disagree.
Yes, I’ve met some screwed up families, and also some bitterly hurtful teachers and administrators. When I was young, the horror of human failings like war, torture, the wanton destruction of whole peoples, and endemic family violence all over the planet felt overwhelming sometimes. It was the courage and dedication of the living parents and children around me that kept me sane.
There are no grounds for denigrating the intelligence or good will of the families it has been my honor to serve. Your tone towards them offends me, Warren; you don’t know jack about them.
No tone presented. I stand by my comments. I have met maybe, MAYBE 10 families in twenty-plus years of teaching who were capable of making curricular decisions for their kids – and guess what – they were all educators. Sort of proves my point.
I would like to think in my college town you would have at least 10 families who could make curricular decisions for their kids in each class.
I will never forget a teacher saying that our son should “not take an AP chemistry class early because only the schools AP scholars do that”. Of course he ended up as a national AP scholar. My wife and I knew that would happen. The teacher didnt see it.
Some parents do, some parents don’t, some parents learn.
Most parents are very concerned about the interests of the child. I pulled one son out of most of the public high school courses but think it is fine that another goes to all of them because I believe it is in the best interests of my two children. The only thing i required from the experts was to get out of the way.
If I ever have another child, he/she will be home schooled. Incapable of curriculum decision? You make me laugh.
Warren, I guess you are on board with the TFAers and their 5 weeks of experience in classroom teaching then, right? I mean, that’s what Arne Duncan says is the future of teachers so I guess we “uninformed parents” should take the word of Secretary Duncan and Michelle Rhee….a 5 week cramfest in learning how to be a “professional” will make all the difference in teaching children.
Teaching is not so much a profession any more. Maybe in the past they had autonomy and trust, but teachers’ hands today are tied by mandates and bubble tests. This “uninformed” parent knows the teacher has to teach “common” standards now. Doesn’t make me feel good inside about teachers teaching what’s “best for kids” when it’s controlled by special interest consortia.
I have NO idea how you could make that leap. I am a second career teacher, went back to school, took the ed courses, 2 masters and then a PhD in C&I – you are WAY off base with that assumption. I think tfa is one of the WORST things to ever be imposed upon students and communities. And you make the error of thinking Duncan and Rhee are teachers or speak for teachers. Duncan has never taught a day in his life, Rhee claims 3 years in the classroom (shrouded in much mystery that part of her life is). I think my educational background and 20+ years in the classroom more than qualify me to make the professional decisions that parents cannot not. That’s a big part of why I was hired, IMO.
I make that leap because that is what is written in Race to the Top and the TFAers hired thanks to the Democratic educational policy. Evidently this administration (and many Republicans as well) do not buy the argument that all those years of college experience in education makes a teacher a professional. A 5 week training course does the trick in the new educational blueprint. TFAers are cheaper and can be recycled quickly.
I never said Rhee and Duncan spoke for teachers. I am well aware of Rhee’s and Duncan’s lack of experience in education and their connections to special interests. They currently happen to have an enormous amount of power in making educational decisions. And while your degrees certainly have given you knowledge, it still may not supersede parental knowledge about their children. Good parents and good teachers can make a difference in a child’s life. But to elevate yourself far above parents because of your college degrees and discount parental knowledge and contributions does a disservice to children and parents, IMO.
And are most of these parents themselves the products of public education?
Most teachers are indeed concerned about the future of their charges to educate. An administrative person in our district informed my wife that our middle son was highly social, fun to be around and would always have a lot of friends, BUT, we should never expect to much of a lazy, fun loving boy who would never amount to much.
His lifes accomplishments filled a ten inch double wide column in the local newspaper.
He spent 20 years in the United States Air Force, was a member of the AG for four years, leader of delta force, completed two masters, two PHD’s and left that person in the dust. His thesis demands $25,00.00+ for each presentation seminar
My opinion, most teachers are after a paycheck and don’t care a whit about the students. SOME would (and do) give their lives for the best interest of their students.
Union activists and those promoting their personal political agendas are worthless. Worst of all are those promoting an alternate lifestyle. I suppose that Penn State University “professionals” also knew what was best for their students.
Was Sandusky a public school teacher? I don’t think so. Your generalizations are abhorrent.
YOU are TYPICAL of the, fortunately, very few ARROGANT “education specialists” I encountered in public school. While the vast majority of teachers I have met work hard to educate their students, there still exist a few who use their positions to bully students and, if they could have, to bully me through threats to my child’s GPA. When they learned that this would not occur, they backed off. Then we have the teachers who believe and employ only the “accepted” demagoguery of educational theorists from universities and colleges. Their theories are usually inane but are necessary to achieve tenure: “public or perish.”
I DO know about education and schooling because I attended school, was a teacher, and then learned what knowledge is really needed through actually working in the real world. The day you are out in the real world and not in some educational island and the day you actually know what skills your students must have to function outside the classroom will be the day you know what the rest of us have learned: all the educational theorists in universities and colleges are full of B.S.
Do not assume that you care for your students’ futures more than their parents care. Because that is the case, do not assume that you, a professional, know everything about your line of work and, much more importantly, that parents “don’t know jack about education or schooling.” Congratulations for insulting the very people who pay your salary.
Well, Elinor, I worked in your vaunted “Real World” as an engineer for 13 years before becoming a teacher. I am not hired to teach skills, per se, so away with that canard. I “learned what thee rest of us have learned”, as you so cutely wrote, a LONG time ago, when working many menial jobs to pay my way through my first two degrees, and then 13 years as an engineer. Again, just because theorists may be difficult for many to comprehend does not mena that they are “full of BS” – again, it reveals the weaknesses of the observer. So, got ya there.
Next topic – I do know most everything about my line of “work” as you put it (a profession, in actuality).
And I do not think that I insulted the people who “pay my salary”. The state legislators who allocate funds to the districts can take a little heat and a little ribbing, I think.
Again, my points are proven by a post which seeks to “correct” me or attack me. Too fun.
Secondly, I do not have a blog, so your claim that I made such statements is an outright falsehood (polite term for a lie). And I do know
I don’t know why us parents are wasting our time writing on this blog. All we keep encountering is the same thing: teachers who think they are smarter than us and talk down to us. The responses of most of the teachers on here, when they respond to the parents only prove the point the parents are making. And the teachers are asking us condescending questions like, “What’s the level of your child’s social intelligence?” No matter what we write,. the teachers are going to get back on here and write more snarky things. They’re going to twist our words and tell us that “it’s not been my experience.” Well, guess what? It’s been our experience. These negative things have happened to our children in school. And if you don’t believe us, it doesn’t make it not true.
You’re just proving our point by being the antagonistic teachers we’ve had the displeasure of dealing with in person, by being antagonistic to us on this blog. It just shows a lack of maturity on your part. And even though you may write that parents may know what’s best for their kids, you contradict that by treating us like we don’t know what’s best for our kids. Most of you sound like prejudice prideful prattling professors. And I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with you in parent-teacher conferences, bless my lucky stars.
This entire discussion has been an exercise in social education. The hot topic in schools today is bully behavior.
In my state, bullying is defined as follows: ” ‘Harassment, intimidation or bullying’ means any gesture, any written, verbal or physical act, or any electronic communication, whether it be a single incident or a series of incidents, that is reasonably perceived as being motivated either by any actual or perceived characteristic, such as race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, or a mental, physical or sensory [handicap] disability, or by any other distinguishing characteristic.”
Bullies often engage in unwarranted injuries against their victims through acts of generalized judgments motivated by actual or perceived characteristics. A very common response of bullies is to complain when these victims stand up for themselves.
For those who were attacked by education professionals on here, you are owed an apology. For those who were attacked by people who call themselves “parents,” you are also owed an apology.
Our blog’s host posted a letter that outlines the experiences of a teacher with the parents of the children this teacher has as students offering the question of whether or not parents know what’s best for their children. A group of highly insulted parents, many of whom happen to home-school their own children, came here in a defensive posture to strike down what they felt were insufferable remarks that vilified their role as those who knew best. I think most parents would have done the same had they taken the original post as an affront to their sensibilities. When it was pointed out that the original post was presented as a starting place for discussion and not an insult from the blog’s host, some admitted that they misinterpreted. Others ignored this and continued to disparage the blog host and education professionals, in general.
Throughout this discussion, many posters engaged in the practice of making generalizations about a particular group of people who were on opposing sides of the “who knows what’s best for children” argument. In responding to the post’s original topic and the discussion points throughout, many made the same mistake of demeaning education professionals by making insulting blanket statements that were disparaging to teachers. One of the education professionals on this blog responded to the original post and the posts of many from this group of parents in a fashion that insulted the very parents who were defending themselves as representatives of the home-schooling body. The parents decided to take the opportunity to respond to this educator’s comments by remarking that teachers are “arrogant and antagonistic.”
In some parts of the discussion, teachers were perceived as a different group from parents, but many teachers are indeed parents themselves. So to place people in groups with perceived characteristics without mentioning that some people straddle both groups makes this “side-taking” a bit foolish, in and of itself. The only reason there would be an “us vs. them” mentality is if there was hostility toward the parent-teacher relationship. For some, the teacher part of that relationship has been completely eliminated due to the fact that their children no longer learn in a school environment.
Many people were completely for one side or the other, but there were also many education professionals who believed that both sides had a stake in what was best for children. Yet, these people endured some of the most insulting and demeaning generalized commentary regarding their profession and the system in which they work, i.e. Schools are filled with ‘apathetic adults, teachers are teaching children incorrect historical accounts because they do not reference ‘GOD,’ or (the ever-popular) unions protect sexual predators and bad teachers, etc., etc. Despite the fact that these points were discussed and answered for, many of these discussions were simply met with more generalizations or they were completely ignored by the original offenders.
A back-story type of discussion regarding the merits of home-schooling and public schooling ensued with topics being hashed out by many posters. Yet throughout, some still decided to make insulting and disparaging remarks by using anecdotal “evidence” to back up these comments even after it was pointed out again and again how unfair these blanket statements were.
Now we have people complaining that they are going to take their marbles and go home because others aren’t playing nice in the sandbox.
One of the biggest generalizations that many have made is to put all education professionals in the same boat as those who believe parents do not know what’s best for their children. This is as unfair as the generalizations about teachers and parents that have been made in this discussion.
I, for one, do not suffer bullies well. If you cannot discuss topics without making disparaging generalizations and if you cannot discuss topics with the intelligence to answer for such remarks, then you are no better than those you accuse.
I would hope that you will be able to teach the children in your charge to be more open-minded and tolerant of others’ viewpoints in discussions without injecting demoralizing judgments through misinformed generalizations.
P.S. In reference to the following, I offer these remarks to knittogetherinlove:
Education professionals have concerns about socialization among home-schooled children. I suppose from your remarks that you think it is bad form for education professionals to engage in discussions about socialization with home-schooled parents. This topic was not framed as an insult–it was brought up because it is a concern. I do not understand why it was taken as an affront, but perhaps the defensive posturing on this topic is indicative of past discussions with others who have the same concerns, or perhaps one just takes offense to any critical discussions surrounding home-schooling. Whatever the reason for this being taken as an insult, these concerns were discussed in depth, and even though the infusion of the topic is still mentioned as a “sore spot,” it does not lessen the concerns outlined. If one does not care to address it, that is one’s prerogative, but make no mistake, there are social differences between home-schooling and public schooling beyond the off-handed (and wholly unfair) remarks about how “awful the public school environment is.” Nobody was ever saying that home-school children are social misfits, but there were many instances where the public school environment was referred to as a bastion of social affronts by those who have taken their children out of the schools. Education professionals really do care about all aspects of a child’s development no matter where the child is schooled, despite what your perception might be.
Dr Warren (since below you insist on a military veteran addressing you as such, without considering that if we are to be so formal, it might be appropriate first to ask what his title is and lead by example)
You say, “Parents don’t know jack about education or schooling. If they did, there would be no need for schools and schooling.” In your reposted blog, you also generalize parents as abusers, rapists, spoilers, and dullards, easily swayed by the cunning, and either incompetent or uninterested in the tasks of parenting.
These are quite irresponsible, inflammatory, and apparently hate-filled statements, full of logical fallacies, and inappropriate for an erudite professional such as yourself. While I would agree that some parents fall into those categories (along with a much smaller percentage that deserve your other broad brush of parents who starve and rape their kids), what might be your response to equally irresponsible, inflammatory, and apparently hate-filled statements against teachers?
It might be, “But at least 95% of teachers do their best and are competent and do better as they get experience.” Well-said (best line in your blog, btw).
Perhaps we should all leave such hatred and vitriol off the net, and if we find ourselves unable to do so, instead leave it in the offices of other professionals trained to deal with such disorders.
Pat (no title required)
Hello, Pat. I guess you missed the emoticon I added on to that statement. Please go back and re-read that and perhaps you will see that I was just larking about.
Now to the more serious bit – your accusations that I posted some really inappropriate things in my blog re-post.
1.) I do NOT have a blog to re-post’
2.) I NEVER made any of the statements you are claiming I made. That is an outright falsehood (polite term for a lie).
Let’s get the facts correct please. Those things are inappropriate and uncalled for, and I would NEVER post such a thing is I had a blog.
Dr Warren,
My apologies – I incorrectly assumed that in your vigorous defense of the quote in the post, and your reference to the repost of the blog, that you were the originator. I do apologize for the mistake, and the carelessness of my assumption. That’s not the same as a lie, and in the course of earning so many degrees, I would hope one would learn the difference.
However, your statement, “I NEVER made any of the statements” IS a lie, as my first quote is directly from your 12 Aug, 10:16 response. “Parents don’t know jack…”
Denial and counter-accusations? Perhaps a conference between professionals IS warranted. (Insert appropriate emoticon here)
Now excuse me while I go see a man about a lark.
Pat (just Pat)
If Mr White had any real education credentials or experience in Louisiana classrooms I might feel more inclined to listen. But we all know that it is just politispeak and he doesn’t even believe it himself. Both White and our governor have no respect for our parents or teachers. The fact is that no one could possibly argue with it because then WE become the enemy. The whole point is to separate teachers and parents…divide and conquer. The way for educators to fight back is to let parents know we respect their role as parents and to create a climate for them to respect us as educators. We need to get parents on our side and show them that we also want what’s best for their children. How do we do this? We start with Respect. We must show them, not just tell them. As teachers and administrators we need to ask ourselves what are we doing or not doing that has created this environment where parents believe the ” trash talk” spewed by our governor and Mr White.
Yes, we are often expected to deal with parents and students that are difficult. But we can’t be disrespectful or judgemental bc it won’t serve our purposes. We have to remember to be the model of what we expect from students and their parents. Especially when they aren’t able to return that to us. Remember, we are teachers. Our job is not just to teach content, but also to give students the social tools to benefit from their educational opportunities. We have to work together with parents as true partners, no matter what. Or else Mr White will win them over with his false agenda and lies.
“But we can’t be disrespectful or judgemental bc it won’t serve our purposes.”
We can’t be disrespectful or judgemental because it is morally and professionally wrong to do so.
Telling the truth is not judgmental. Neither is it disrespectful to point out the truth.
Whose truth is it that you are talking about? Yours? I don’t know that your truths and mine are the same when it comes to students. I have spent many years going into the homes of the students in the community where I teach. I have sat on their living rooms. After 9 years I have learned not to judge their circumstances by my own limited experiences. These parents can spot hypocrites from a mile away. They know who has their child’s best interest and who is judging them. I choose not to be judgemental. You can call it truth if you want, but I suspect your truth is tinged with judgement. That judgmental attitude is part of the reason many parents are fighting against us instead of with is. Just my own point of view, thank you.
The one thing that con artists know how to do is flatter the intelligence of their marks.
Maybe it’s not such a pretty job, but teachers, however gently, have to tell it like it is.
“Education is too important to be left solely to educators.”
Francis Keppel
Then I suppose the same goes for engineering, or medicine, or economics. Heh.
Actually, yes it does.
“Parenting is too important to be left solely to parents.”
— Jonny Cache
Which is why it takes a village to raise a bairn …
Indeed that is true as well. Society often intervenes with parental decisions. Most importantly for the situation here, society requires that children attend school, no matter what the parents think.
@Warren,
Engineers draw the designs, but it is the construction workers on the ground that find the flaws and fix them as they build.
PAt – I was a construction engineer before becoming a teacher. that is sometimes correct – but usually, the “flaw” is a mis-reading or misinterpretation of the plans.
James Gill, a writer for the Times-Picayune, had this story in this morning’s paper.
http://www.nola.com/opinions/index.ssf/2012/08/odds_are_no_process_existed_fo.html
Such problems in the early days are only to be expected, but the state is inviting trouble on its own head by transferring plenty of kids to schools with an overtly religious agenda. Come September, Louisiana taxpayers will even be footing the bill for kids in many schools to be taught by creationist crackpots. Clearly, the criteria applied by White did not include adherence to the U.S. Constitution. This cannot conceivably survive court challenge.
The question may not be what criteria the state applied, but whether it applied any criteria at all. Public record requests for documentation that might throw some light on that have been stonewalled.
Religious or not, it’s up to the parents (the taxpayers) to determine whether to send their child(ren) there. I am quite happy with the faith-based private education my child is receiving. Unfortunately, the tax money that I am forced to pay goes to educate someone else’s child. How is that fair? Let the parents use their tax money as they see fit.
“Unfortunately, the tax money that I am forced to pay goes to educate someone else’s child.”
So you’re saying that you are unhappy because you are asked, as a citizen, to pay into society in order to reap the benefits of society?
The public education system is in place to provide educational services to the PUBLIC, not some elite group of people who have personal wants and everyone else “be damned.” An educated public serves the community, and yes, it even serves you. When a community fails to provide education for its children, what happens to the children? Do you think you can keep them out of your life if you just lock yourself in your little gated community?
If you don’t like paying taxes, perhaps you shouldn’t use the public emergency systems. In that case, I do hope you never need the police or fire company to come to your aid. Oh, and you really ought to stop using the roads to get around since other people’s tax money go to providing and maintaining the roads for you.
Parents do not have the monopoly on paying taxes. Childless people also pay taxes. Teachers pay taxes. Health care professionals pay taxes. Politicians pay taxes. In short, CITIZENS pay taxes. The tax money that you feel you are “forced” to pay goes to the infrastructure or what many like to call, “the commons.” Infrastructure includes the provision for educating the public. Maybe you need to educate yourself a bit more about how societies work–it might help you make better choices at the voting booth.
It’s astounding that this self-serving kind of thinking even goes on in this country, but then again…I haven’t been everywhere, I guess.
I think many of us would like to be able to decide where our tax dollars go, but what if all citizens had those choices?
Some people always drive their own cars or fly their own airplanes, so they’d want a transportation voucher.
Some folks prefer UPS or FedEx, so they’d want a mail voucher.
Some would not want their money supporting the police, fire department or military industrial complex and might want a protection voucher to pay for personal protection services.
Some folks wouldn’t allow their funds to go to the parks or forest preserves and would want a recreation voucher to pay for vacations.
People who prefer to own their own books would ask for library vouchers.
People without kids or senior citizens might not want their money going to schools at all or might want an education voucher to pay for field trips they can take to foreign museums.
Everyone would get to direct their tax dollars to their own pet project, like research on genetic engineering.
Before long, we would not have enough money to pay for any public services like transportation, mail, the police, firefighters, military, parks and forest preserves, libraries, schools, etc.
The upside is that many private for-profit industries would be raking in megabucks. Oh, and we will have the choice to select from private companies, instead of choices between private AND public services.
I used to be for private school vouchers. We had a big thing about it our state, to vote on a voucher bill. The NEA focused millions of dollars to fight it. They won. But they won with lies. My brother in law is a teacher and vice principal. He never read the bill, but shared with me what the NEA told him to say about it. To argue over it. All of his concerns were answered and disproved just by reading the bill to him. I tried to be as nice as I could about it. The bill was only 2 pages. Isn’t that ironic that he as a teacher, didn’t take the time to learn for himself? But instead believed what he was told by the left-winged NEA. Aren’t they supposed to teach kids to learn things for themselves and to research? The bill even provided for funds meant for the students who left the public school to remain with the public school for an additional 5 years. And it wasn’t going to take any money from public education to fund the vouchers. :The NEA told him that it would be funded from public education funds, etc.
Anyway, I’m off point. The reason why I’m not for vouchers anymore is because if public funds are used to finance private education, government bureacracies would get involved and IT WILL EVENTUALLY BECOME AS MESSED UP AS PUBLIC EDUCATION, and then what would we do?
Yes, I loved Newt Gingrich’s idea to send the money alloted to each child for public education and let the parents decided where to send their kids. Mitt Romney has recently adopted that idea. Of course it would have to go through Congress to first, I think. But that would end all arguments about whether parents are capable of knowing what’s best for their kids.
And there’s a lot of waste in public education. For example, I’ve heard of $400 textbooks. No wonder schools are stuck with out of date textbooks. My online school self-publishes their books, the are much more cost efficient. The students get up to date, lovely books each year. And if there are any changes that need to be made, it’s available online.
Private schools, many of them, can operate on less money than public schools.
And the teachers who are upset by the parents voicing their opinions on this ridiculous notion that parents don’t know what’s best for their kids, ought to understand our offense at this. Thank you for not blocking our posts.
You know, the idea of another adult spending the good part of the day with other people’s children, that has some gray areas. It can be emotional. We know it’s a job. And we know you have college degrees and ceritificates, but that doesn’t make you more qualified to tell us what to do with our kids. Involved parents hold teachers accountable and have entrusted their precious children to your for the day. We expect our children to be taught the 3 Rs and other accurate information. Teachers are employed by the government and are paid from tax-payer money (and yes, we all know that teachers pay taxes too)….I sure wish that that tax money didn’t get sent to the teachers’ union for dues, though.
Off topic, but I remember my 4th grade reading teacher said that words that start with Q always have a U after the Q. “Always.” As a 4th grader I remembered seeing Iraq and Qatar on a map. And was about to raise my hand to challenge her on it. But she was so mean. I had nightmares and anxiety about her class. Since then, I’ve learned the word, Qiviut, which is what the fiber from a musk oxen is called. It’s spins into the soften yarn in the world. Teachers don’t always teach accurate facts. And parents don’t either, because we’re human. But if we can teach children how to find the answers themselves and think for themselves, that’s what it’s about.
“Teachers are employed by the government and are paid from tax-payer money (and yes, we all know that teachers pay taxes too)….I sure wish that that tax money didn’t get sent to the teachers’ union for dues, though.”
It doesn’t, and the decisions a person makes about what to do with his or her own compensation are not yours to make.
Forgive me, but it appears that you frame EVERY point in this debate with a political bent. The more comments you make, the more obvious it is how politically charged they are and the less credibility you have for making them.
You really haven’t answered to any of the responses regarding the anti-union rhetoric to which you subscribe. You simply move on to other posts and inject more of the same diatribe. Why not engage in a discussion about it? Are you not open to learning something about unions that would counter what you’ve been told?
I love public education, I support teachers and unions….AND…. I’m sorry, but parents do know best what they want for their child… AND teachers I know and would otherwise admire ARE ENABLING THE ABUSE OF CHILDREN BY IMPLEMENTING ED REFORM; why would I want them to be my child’s teacher?
I would agree with a lot of what this teacher wrote IF/WHEN teachers were actively fighting back against ed reform AND were well informed on the latest in learning/neuroscience research AND implementing that research in their classrooms… which we all know IS NOT HAPPENING….
Until that time – yes, I do know better than teachers what my son needs/what I want for him in education… and no, I don’t approve of vouchers or charter schools…
I know this post is from other day, but I finally got to read it. Well, I suppose I can’t help but interject some politics in what I write. I’ve been turned on to political news since I was 9 years old, watching the Reagan/Carter debates of 1980. I’ve followed U.S. and world political news ever since, from many differing sources. I can’t help but be up on current events.
I did share a few quotes from union leaders in response to a post that was brought to my attention. And since I have so much to say, and other interesting posts came up, I couldn’t help but respond to those. It’s neverending I guess. So I’d better bid y’all (in tribute to Delaware’s Joe Biden and his ability to turn on an Africa-American southern accent depending on his audience) good-bye.
I guess some of my idiosyncrasies are that I flit around topics and I’m a political news junkie. But at least I brush my teeth 3 times a day.
you know – and this will be really unpopular – teachers ARE THE SERVANTS of their communities – parents, taxpayers…. you are a PUBLIC SERVANT…. yes, you have professional credentials, some expertise, some native talent in imparting knowledge, nurturing curiosity, encouraging intellectual growth… what knowledge that is and the process of imparting it, in a PUBLIC SCHOOL, ought to be decided by the community based on some community agreement as to what we think education is/looks like… not be decided by the oligarchs or by the teaching corps…
It’s your job to use the most effective, most innovative tools, techniques, strategies, research to impart that knowledge (and IMPLEMENTING ED DEFORM definitely doesnt qualify as doing your job) …
It’s not your job to be a gatekeeper of that knowledge, or to judge which child can/cannot have access to it…
I dont care if you think a child with an IQ of 30 cant go to college – its not your job to determine that and then decide what opportunities that child can/cannot have access to… who the heck knows what benefits/growth that child is experiencing in the process of living AS IF, on some level you cant see/understand?
Sahila, I wholeheartedly agree that, as a public school teacher, I was, indeed, a public servant. (Would that our elected officials realize and remember their role, as well!) I always felt that it was an honor and a privilege to work for the children and parents, and some of my favorite days were those of parent-teacher conferences. I taught Early Childhood Special Ed. for thirteen years, and part of my job was to make home visits, whereby I worked with the child while the parent(s) observed, resulting in a conversation. I have to say, it was one of the most satisfying parts of my job.
Working WITH parents–to help their children–is the best possible scenario.
I respectfully and strongly disagree with being referred to as a public “servant”. I am a very highly trained and accomplished professional. it is EXACTLY my “job” to be a gatekeeper of knowledge. that is how education works. The apprentices learn at the feet of the masters – just like the Medieval guild system.
It is certainly true that education once worked that way, but it is becoming less and less true. For better or worse, there are few gatekeepers on the internet. For many students I believe it is a good thing.
In some cases, I definitely agree. unfortunately, I have to deal with a ton of misinformation which students read online and take for the truth, particularly in relation to social or political topics. That is where my gatekeeper status comes to the fore as I explain to them how to assess information.
Most of my direct experience has been with a son teaching himself math. He and others have found the Internet an amazing learning community.
There are many professional public servants: teachers, attorney, physicians, etc. There is nothing inherent in public service that diminishes your professional accomplishments.
Warren, you’re clearly a bright man, but you’ve got some difficulty relating to others. You may have the education and credentialing of an educator, but education is not solely about that sort of thing.
More than technical competence, there is relational/emotional competence. You can never attain the level of mastery the parents of your students have, usually as a matter of nature. That’s the crucial point you’re overlooking. The relational competence of parents conveys to them a moral authority you lack, and can never possess.
You need to learn to respect that distinction.
You’re an extension of the parental education process, a very important extension, but an extension nonetheless. You serve at the pleasure of the parents of your students, and if they cannot exactly “fire” you, they can certainly yank their children from under your tutelage. If that doesn’t humble you, I don’t know what will.
Until they say something contrary to your beliefs. Then you go into defensive mode to defend your curriculum as the be all and end all of education. Gatekeeper of a union paycheck. Highly trained to put out progressive propaganda that clouds young minds. Teaching kids to be socialists. We all know. We read the text books our children bring home. Out right lies and fabrications. Distortions and deletions of major facts in our history. Paid for by the progressive elite, priming the next generation for the New World Order.
“Do Parents Always Know What Is Best?”
I didn’t want to get into this, because I knew that it was going to be contentious, however, now I think I must.
I don’t think that any single human being can “always know what’s best for children”. However, parents and teachers alike make commitments to do what is in the best interests of children, and people have expertise in different areas, so teachers must collaborate with other professionals, work in partnership with parents, and we need to all recognize that we’re on the same team, not in competition with each other.
Warren, look at Oxford and Cambridge, if you want to see the Medieval system still in practice today. It’s very different from traditional education in America. Professors there are called “tutors”, because they meet regularly with small groups and provide 1:1 tutoring, rather than lectures. Sometimes, others are hired to be Lecturers, but tutoring, not lecturing, is the dominant teaching method. A substantial body of research has demonstrated the efficacy of tutoring, too, which might help to explain why many parents who home-school are effective.
The example regarding the Internet that you provided as evidence of being a “gatekeeper of knowedge” sounds more like instruction and supervision. In this age, we are responsible for teaching students to be critical consumers of information, which comes with the territory for both teachers and parents. It sounds to me like you might think of yourself as a sage on the stage. That’s your prerogative, but I think it’s different from gatekeeping.
In academia, gatekeeping typically refers to making sure that people are capable and adquately trained to work in a profession, which is why there are certain college requirements and certification tests for people in education, bar exams for lawyers, etc. I don’t think gatekeeping decisions should be the domain of teachers in P-12 education, because we’re talking about children who develop at different rates and who have not fully matured, and I don’t believe people’s futures as an adult should be based on their performance as children. The frontal lobes of the brain, which are the seat of Executive Functions, are not fully developed until the 20s, so many folks are naturally late bloomers.
I don’t claim to know what any student’s potential is, because I really don’t know that. I, too, once worked with children who were identified as having severe to profound cognitive disabilities, including some with autism, and I frequently felt like there was more going on with those kids than how they did on tests of IQ and adaptive behaviors. In those days, unfortunately, professionals often advised that we could not get through to them and that they had little potential. I was a paraprofessional at the time and it made me wince to hear that, because I sensed it was not always true, so I often tried to prove them wrong –and I did get through when others hadn’t. Thank goodness for parents who did not give up on their children, too, because today we know that helping kids develop communication skills can be key, and that Autism is a spectrum with a range of severity and many kids can be reached through intervention.
Parents, professionals and paraprofessionals all bring different but valuable information to the table, and I don’t think any of us should see ourselves individually as all knowing. (And John White may be “the government”, but I am far from it.)
thewickedshallfall says:
August 14, 2012 at 10:55 pm
“Until they say something contrary to your beliefs. Then you go into defensive mode to defend your curriculum as the be all and end all of education. Gatekeeper of a union paycheck. Highly trained to put out progressive propaganda that clouds young minds. Teaching kids to be socialists. We all know. We read the text books our children bring home. Out right lies and fabrications. Distortions and deletions of major facts in our history. Paid for by the progressive elite, priming the next generation for the New World Order.”
You made quite a stretch to link unions to “PAID FOR” text books. You DO realize that the union does not make curriculum choices or provide the funding for text books, right?
Texts and curriculum resources are actually chosen by non-union curriculum administrators and supervisors basing resource needs on (in many states) the content standards—these resources are published by the PRIVATE industry (note, non-public union) to reflect the state content standards. I think you are putting two of your “enemies” in the same bed which is not only unfair, but it is without basis.
I’m trying to wrap my head around all the things you’ve said, as if there is SOME truth to your reality, but it just seems like propaganda to me. Maybe it’s much, much easier to just make comments bathed in anti-union, anti-public school rhetoric with no basis because people who believe them won’t do any research for verification purposes.
You know, Warren, you sound really insecure. I’ve met plenty of people with a bunch of letters after their names and they weren’t any smarter than me. They often didn’t really know much about a lot of things. They needed those diplomas to feel validated. But you know what? No one is superior to anyone else.
I have nothing against getting advanced degrees, but I am most impressed by those who are humble and seem to think they can learn things from children.
I am glad that parents have a choice in education for their children. Parents do know what’s best for their kids. And I am so glad that I don’t have to send my kids to learn from your masterful feet.
My kids who are schooled at home are pretty smart. I have a child going into Kindergarten who is tested to read at a 2nd grade level. My 3rd grader has had that opportunity to advance in math far above her grade level. My 5th grader reads on a high school level. The local school wouldn’t know what to do with them. I pulled the older ones out of that school because of prideful teachers who were limiting them and holding them back. They were appalled that I would want to teach them at home and thought my kids woudn’t survive. But they have flourished.
So you can’t tell me that parents don’t know “jack” about what’s best for their own children’s education.
Interesting. The textbooks we use are quite accurate. No outright lies or distortions. I would be interested in seeing some of the “outright lies and distortions” of which you speak.
Let’s just agree to disagree and think outside the box, Dr. Warren. Do you think you might have some preconceived notions about home schooling families calling most of them “radical evangelical fundamentalists”?
You can do what you want. I’m not trying to take your job away from you. Just don’t try to take my sacred right as a parent to choose what’s best for my children away from me.
I’m just glad that I found an educational program that’s custom made for my children who wouldn’t thrive in the common public school classroom. The common school classroom would not know what to do with my kids. And it would be a disservice to their progress to put them back into a 20th Century classroom model when they’re used to one on one attention and having many beautiful textbooks and cyber lessons that can go as fast or as slow as needed. They have certified teachers to work with and they have me. Science is barely taught in local school until 4th grade. Where the online school teaches it regularly since Kindergarten. They also learn history from the beginning, but that’s not taught in local school until 6th grade. They can also choose from many foreign languages, including Latin as early as 1st grade. The Art courses are on par with college level Art History with some application. It’s wonderful. They also have P.E. believe it or not. I want what’s best for my kids and I’ve found it. Maybe your schools are better than my local school, so I’m not criticizing your school. But I sure am glad that I can choose the much better education option for my children and don’t have to go with the status quo. Our school is ranked near the bottom of the 400 elementary schools we have in our state. I shouldn’t have to just accept that and send my kids there. I should and do have the right to choose a better educational option for my kids.
My nephew was ignored by his 1st and 2nd grade teachers and they didn’t teach him to read. Sad but true. They made him sit at the back of the class. I did not make this up. They thought he was a trouble maker just because he’s over weight and big for his age. So my sister in law enrolled her kids into the same online school as my kids and this online school has wonderful programs for children who are special needs or below level (as well as advanced learners like my kids ; D) and my nephew has done so much better. He can read now and the goal is to get him on level. Not keep him in Resource classes for the rest of his school career like the local schools would do.
Do you see what I’m saying? I’m not trying to be antagonistic. I’m just sharing. Hey maybe some of you might consider being online teachers. You don’t need to worry about putting up with nonsense and discipline. You just need to teach. And it’s perfect for young mothers who can work from home being an online teacher. It’s win-win and the way of the future.
Thanks to the advantages of 21st century educational technology, my preschooler can read on a 2nd grade level. She’s about to go into Kindergarten. The local school could not accomodate her, but the online Kindergarten curriculum is more advanced, plus there is upward mobility for children who want to and are able to advance through the work. My soon to be 3rd grader was able to do 2nd and 3rd grade Math in her 2nd grade year, because she’s good at Math. She will be starting 4th grade Math in a few weeks. To be able to advance like that and get one on one attention in a common classroom, is nearly impossible. Online education has worked very well for our family.
We’ve had very good results with online school. My daughter scored perfect 100s in Language Arts and mostly 100s in Mathematics in the state testing. She has really opened up and is articulate and confident. Before when she was bored and bullied in local school she was shy and grouchy.
And since making that choice, my oldest daughter doesn’t have to worry about being bullied at recess anymore (the recess duty lady and her teacher never did anything about it, though they spouted the virtues of the school being anti-bully) Our family is closer too. Online school at home, or independent homeschool isn’t for everyone, because it takes a lot of effort and sacrifice from the parents. But those parents who choose to do it should not be criticized. If those educational professionals are true lovers of education, they would not be upset at this.
I’m sorry if my posts added to the negativity. I’m just sharing my experiences. If you have a headline like, “Do Parents Really Know What’s Best,” expect some opinions. That’s an emotionally charged title. And Ms. or Dr. Ravitch, what is your personal opinion about that? Do you agree that parents don’t know what’s best for their children? And I have researched the teachers’ unions beliefs on this topic. The head of our state EA has vocalized that she thinks parents don’t know anything about education and to leave it to the “professionals.” Anyway, it is what it is. I didn’t mean to sound critical of the profession of teaching. I just don’t want them to criticize parents for the choices they make or try to take away our choices. Thank you for allowing me to share my opinion on your blog.
Parents might not “always” know what’s best for their children, but that doesn’t mean they can’t learn. That is precisely what HispanEduca and its parent blog “Padres con PODER! aims to do: make education policy issues accessible to Hispanics, including parents, so they are not the mere recipients of education information, but an educated army that has the tool to impact education policy–and what happens at school that impacts their children. Don’t we all believe in the power of education? Parents too can become educated citizens. At least that’s what HispanEduca will advocate for.
“But at least 95% of teachers do their best and are competent and do better as they get experience.” It could also be said that . . . at least 95% of parents do their best and are competent and do better as they get experience.
It is pretty clear that some parents, I mean the ones being taken in by profiteering con artists, do not have a clue what is best for their children.
It is not going to be good for their children to live in the kind of society that these profiteering con artists are trying to sell them.
Got that right!
Hrmm I’m gonna go with my gut here and say a broken bone is way different then a kid’s ability to learn. I home-school my kid. I have education professionals marveling at the fact that my kid is learning above her grade level. But thanks for thinking that I’m not capable of knowing what my kid needs. You’re not the first know it all that tried to tell me that only professionals can teach my kid, you probably won’t be the last.
Honestly I survived “professional education” and later I looked up what they taught me and found a damn good portion of it was wrong. So if I can learn to think on my own and question authority, and study the subject matter on my own, I think I can be trusted to teach my kid.
How is your kid’s level of social intelligence?
I sent a comment hours ago and you never put it on your blog. there was certainly no swearing or questionable words?? so why is that?
I did not receive a comment from you in past three days. Please resend.
Pretty good actually she’s very sociable.She makes friends everywhere all ages. People have remarked how polite she is. 🙂
That’s very good to hear and a true testament to her upbringing.
Now, how does she relate to other kids her age? I find the social education of being in a public school to be quite valuable, whether or not it’s always pleasant for the child. The public school is a microcosm of a macrocosm to borrow the phrase, and a great place to learn about others in order to foster an understanding of what other people go through in life. It is my hope that parents understand the importance of exposing their children to people in general, not just “people like them.”
I don’t know why it is that whenever someone mentions that they homeschool, the top concern by others unfamiliar with it always ask about socializing. I suppose that’s a valid question, since it’s such a common question. My husband’s answer is, “we don’t want our children to be socialists.” He’s kidding of course. But we don’t get any questions about if our children are getting a good education. Because it’s common knowledge that homeschool kids are very educated and above their peers, in the majority of cases.
So is common public school ( I write “common” instead of traditional school, because throughout most of the world’s history, most people were homeschooled, so that’s as traditional as you can get), is public school only good for socializing children? Is that it’s main purpose?
I can tell you from our family’s experience that my oldest child was happy and friendly before she started public school. She would say “hi” to everyone on the playground as I walked with her. But none of the kids responded. Eventually, she became not as friendly. Her social experience in elementary school was bullies, fair weather friends, and shouting teachers with strict rules. Is that what life is about?
The homeschool kids that I’ve met look you in the eye and smile. They are bright and friendly. I haven’t seen that in the majority of public school kids. So the question is, what kind of socializing do you want your kids to have? My kids play with friends everyday. They also have playgroups. And Dr. Warren is not going to like this, but my kids go to church each Sunday. 2 hours of which are children’s singing time and lessons. They are comfortable around people of all ages. We go places. My kids make friends quickly.
I guess it depends on the parents and homelife. Kids in happy families when the parents spend positive time with them, are more socially well-adjusted than kids who don’t have that privilege. We learn socializing from our families as we grow up. The public schools and the teachers can reinforce it–hopefully, in a positive way. But that isn’t the foundation of socialization.
One of the founders of Headstart said that the longer the children spend with their mothers before the school years, the better off socially, emotionally, and mentally they are. But Headstart is a safety net for children who’s parents need to work, or if they don’t know English, or are not in a good home environment.
At a public school classroom, they sit there with 20-30 students. And no one is allowed to talk very much to each other or they get in trouble. And we all know that on the playground you can hear every swear word in the book, repeatedly. And all the bad manners possible. Maybe it’s a “real world experience” that is beneficial to children to be around that 8 hourse a day. It probably teaches them important lessons.
Anyway, if parents want to send their kids to public school to be socialized, that’s great. I support their choice.
One more thing, “Do Parents Always Know What is Best?” is an offensive, ridiculous, and unnatural question. It harks of Marxism and Stalinism. It’s like the Time Magazine cover story that came out a few years ago, “Are Parents Necessary?” You know, the stork still delivers babies to a mother and father. He does’t deliver to a classroom.
“So…is public school only good for socializing children? Is that it’s main purpose?”
You mean “its purpose.” Should I use your lack of proper grammar in that statement as evidence that home-schooling parents provide a kind of inferior education to their children? I mean, after all, there is ONE example of something that is a REPREHENSIBLE grammatical model—surely, if I followed YOUR logic, all home-school parents would look like illiterate fools based on your mistake. If you agree with my subjective judgment, then if I were you I would pull your child out of that home-school but quick since the teacher cannot even use words properly. (That sarcasm was meant to prove a point about how subjectivity does not always make a person the best judge of a system that serves the public—it was not meant to devalue you personally, BTW. You seem like a good sport, so I took the chance. 😛 )
No, providing a social education isn’t the main purpose of schooling, but I can tell you that learning and practicing social skills is a very important part of a public school education because these skills are important to living in society. Children in public schools have opportunities to learn about other people daily. I salute you for being aware of these skills and fostering them in your own children.
But what type of socialization do you foster with your children—that is an important question. One can make the argument that a country club membership promotes socialization, too. It is my hope that your children learn to interact with people from all walks of life including children in your community who are disadvantaged. Now before you say that you encourage your children to volunteer to help the needy, this does not qualify as “interacting” socially from a peer stand-point. If your child is sitting in the classroom next to a child of meager means or one who has abusive parents, your child can learn a lot more about children in these situations than from acting as some a philanthropist. There are many opportunities to gain a social education in public schools—that is all I am saying.
“Her social experience in elementary school was bullies, fair weather friends, and shouting teachers with strict rules. Is that what life is about?”
Fair weather friends exist outside of the public school environment (you find them in politics, too). The existence of bullies is a fact of life—you cannot shelter your children from bullies. Schools are working to help educate everyone on dealing with bully-issues, so there is more than just protecting a person physically, mentally and emotionally in learning how to deal with these problems. You can be part of the community solution or you can run away from the problem by abandoning and bad-mouthing the community schools. Now, I certainly do not hope that your post mean you are against rules?
“The homeschool kids that I’ve met look you in the eye and smile. They are bright and friendly. I haven’t seen that in the majority of public school kids.”
That is your experience—not mine. I’m glad that you find this among the home-school children you know—it’s actually comforting to know that. However, that does not mean you are correct to generalize anymore than I am.
“I guess it depends on the parents and homelife.”
Agreed. The important thing to remember is that some children will never have the type of home-life where positive and community-minded social skills are fostered. The public schools often do pick up the responsibility for helping to guide these children although there is plenty of room for error. Education professionals can only do so much, but they often are the only advocates that some children have. Therefore it is in the community’s best interest to support them. If you care about your community, you would be thinking about your community and trying to improve it instead of tearing it down because you think that your children should not have to follow “strict rules.”
“The public schools and the teachers can reinforce it–hopefully, in a positive way. But that isn’t the foundation of socialization.”
For some, it just might be which is why you should support this system for the good of your neighbors and your community.
“At a public school classroom, they sit there with 20-30 students. And no one is allowed to talk very much to each other or they get in trouble. And we all know that on the playground you can hear every swear word in the book, repeatedly. And all the bad manners possible.”
Ok, this is what is called “injecting a value judgment based on subjective experience” which is pretty much all over your commentary in this debate. This practice may strengthen your resolve, but it weakens your argument. You are, in effect, stating that public schools are “bad” because they serve the public. So let me take this one step further: You obviously think that the public is “bad” unless you are talking about your personal family. This is the attitude that pulls people away from “public” schools. I cannot think of how horrible it must be to despise other peoples’ children so much that you would abandon public schools just so that your children do not have to learn everyday with them. Or is it that I am making a subjective judgment based on nothing, as well? I can certainly read between the lines—but perhaps I am misjudging you. Correct me, if so.
“Anyway, if parents want to send their kids to public school to be socialized, that’s great. I support their choice.”
I’m sure they are thrilled to have your endorsement.
“One more thing, ‘Do Parents Always Know What is Best?’ is an offensive, ridiculous, and unnatural question. It harks of Marxism and Stalinism. It’s like the Time Magazine cover story that came out a few years ago, ‘Are Parents Necessary?’ “
These are what are called “provocative questions” meant to illicit debate. They are not political statements until you make them political. When you read them with your own personal bias, you make them political. Why else would you take offense to these if you did not feel you had to defend yourself in the first place? It would better serve you to read these articles with the eyes of someone who is a scholar—without bias—instead of an emotional entity who is trying to prove something. I mean, after all, you are home-schooling children—it is in their best interest for you to present logical and unbiased thinking as a model for them. Otherwise, they are not learning to think for themselves. To do anything else is NOT the best for your children—and you can choose to be offended by that statement or not.
Feeling the need to defend oneself is putting a personal spin on the issue—this is exactly what educators in public schools SHOULD not do. I am sorry if you felt that the ones you experienced did this, but they are not supposed to, and I would want my children to have something better if this is all that I found in the public schools. This is why parents need to speak out on the injustices, IF they are valid. Parents have the power to make changes in the public systems. However, I know from many, many experiences in public schooling that your experiences do not represent the whole of public education.
I certainly would expect a home-schooling parent (or any educator) to know the difference between a provocative philosophical question and political rhetoric, but if that parent does not, how is it again that the parent is qualified to be educating her own children? Academic freedom is scary to those who wish to live in a closed-off world. Most of your arguments appear to support your choice to present your children with only your personal political view of social and academic reality. Again, correct me, if I’m wrong, but it appears you dislike the public school system because you feel that the only academic freedom of worth is that which echoes your own political rhetoric. There are plenty of ideas out there that would benefit your children that I can bet they will never know about from an unbiased point-of-view like they may find in a public system, but then again, you feel that the public system is biased AGAINST your ideals. Therefore, you hate the public, plain and simple. Right?
Hi there, just so you know, I’m not rich at all. I don’t take my kids to a country club…Maybe you’re just being snarky. Kudos to your clever wit.
The fact is, I live in what would be considered “an underprivileged neighborhood.” But I believe that it’s right for me to be a stay at home mom. And I’m willing to make the financial sacrifice to take care of my young children. And I’m not criticizing mothers who work outside of the home. We all do the best we can.
Many of our neighbors are immigrants from south of the border, Samoan Islands, Asia, African refugees, different religions, and even democrats (gasp!) But I’m blind to skin color, I just struggle sometimes as I try to understand accents. So we are blessed to have so many things to share with each other.
But anyway, the main reason I changed schools was because I found wonderful curricula provided by an online school that is better than curricula offered at local school. It’s amazing. I’m so excited about it. And I do want the best for my kids, so that’s why.
From first grade, they learn the history of the world from the dawn of time in the Fertile Crescent and it continues through 4th grade. In 5th and 6th they focus specifically on American history. Where local school basically begins teaching history in 5th grade and it’s American history. In 6th, they have World History. Of course, it’s a brief history. I know I focus a lot on history because I love it. But they also offer fantastic Literature courses, Language Skills, Composition, Math(s), Science, History, Music, Art, P.E., and a choice of international languages of French, Spanish, German, Latin, Chinese, Japanese.
If these courses were offered at local school, that’s where my kids would be, despite my negative experiences there. But I’m really enjoying having my kids at home with me. I can’t relate to those mothers who are happy when summer vacation ends. But please don’t misunderstand me, I think those mothers are good mothers too. I’m not criticizing them or their choice to be happy to have a break from their kids.
Sorry about that grammatical mistake I made. Grammatical mistakes bother me too. I have noticed some other typos I’ve made as well.
Please don’t misunderstand–I was not criticizing you for typos. I make them on a regular basis. (There were at least two in my response to you–maybe more!) I was just using one as an example of how easy it is to make generalizations from just a little information.
Regarding the “country club” argument, I did not intend to make any assumptions about your financial status–that is certainly not my business to know, and there is no need to offer personal information in that regard. I was simply countering the “country club is socializing” argument in case it was brought up as an example.
Here is the analogy: Any social group can be considered “a country club type environment” in that this group values many of the same things. There is nothing wrong with socializing with people with which you have something in common, but there is something to be learned from peer experiences with children who have much less in common outwardly with your children. Philanthropy or other types of learning “about” others from observation or carefully positioned interaction are not substitutes for peer-directed social learning. The reason I brought this up is: I’ve seen so many parents who will not put their children in the public schools and who think they are doing a good thing by “exposing” them to the social education of philanthropy. I agree with them that volunteering and giving something to the community is an excellent disposition, but it is not a replacement for spending time on a peer level with other children as they might experience in the public schools.
A big concern for home schooled children is the need for peer interaction outside of a particular “social group.” No one is saying that all children should be friends, but there is a lot to learn from sitting next to someone who comes from a different background and mindset from you and collaborating with them in a learning environment. This type of social interaction often breaks down social barriers and helps us to be a better and stronger community. It also teaches us to be tolerant of others, and how to deal with people who are intolerant of us. There are lots of lessons to be learned outside of the curriculum. Some schools even have a social education curriculum, and those that do not have this social curriculum built in akin to a “hidden curriculum.” This is just a natural by-product of a social system.
You have outlined a little information regarding the demographics of where you live. Do your children interact with other children who are not home schooled? What have they learned about their neighbors who are not home schooled? Obviously, there are many peer groups with which they can get involved, but I would imagine it’s much more difficult when they are not in school with other kids.
I agree with you regarding the time spent on history and social studies in many of the public schools today. Like has been said before, no system is perfect. History is almost an after-thought in many of the schools today, but this is more a result of the push for math and language arts to be the centerpiece of “success” than for the failing of educators. In my district, the students go back and forth between history and science every other quarter in the elementary school, but in middle school, social studies is a core subject they get every day. There was a push for double math putting history and science on the schedule every other day in the middle school a few years back as a reaction to a drop in standardized test math scores. Thank goodness it would have been “too expensive” for the district to implement this since it would have required doubling its certified math staff and re-assigning or firing some members of its science and social studies staff. I disagree that money should have been the reason to keep history and science on equal footing with other core subjects, but sometimes the bottom line wins out. History/social studies should be an every-day subject. I’m glad you found a curriculum that is rich in world and American history for your children–this is absolutely important.
It’s an impressive concept to “think outside the box” but for some learners, the environment “outside of the box” is the same as it ever was–not appropriate for all learners all the time. Beware of bad ideas under the guise of “innovation.” This is not to say that the current systems are perfect on their own and there is nothing of value with one-on-one instruction (there most certainly is), but the merits of an environment that fosters both individual AND collaborative learning have been researched time and again.
There are some subjects that can be taught one-on-one because they deal with processes that train the individual mind (such as math, historical theory, etc.), but I’m very curious how one learns to make music and how one partakes in physical education without both the observational eye and ear of a specialist in these areas and the interaction of others in a peer group. Physical training can result in injury without guidance or understanding of how the body works. Even professional athletes (who pretty much know their craft) have trainers–why shouldn’t children? An online school can cover history and theory quite well, but for practicum, one needs observation, collaboration, and guided action. Learning is not just about facts and figures–learning requires critical thinking, and to close the door on collaborative learning is to prepare children for living a life in solitude–living with and depending only on one’s self is not very community-minded.
As well, not every child is comfortable learning on his or her own–many children find comfort in participating within a group. Interacting with others brings a deeper level of understanding through “peer example learning” from both being the example and learning from one. The public school environment provides opportunities for “peer example learning” on a constant basis. Sometimes it can be overwhelming for some learners who are easily distracted by all the examples around them. That is where the professionals in the classroom take the lead in working to provide an environment with less distraction and the possibility of better collaboration. I sweat over seating choices when making the seating charts for my classes because learning personalities are so important to the processes that go on in my classroom.
Online schooling does not afford the kinesthetic learner the opportunity to be observed for motor skill deficiencies/affinities or thinking processes. Technology can read kinesthetic learning to a point (xbox kinect, wii, etc.)–but the observations of a specialist can stop problems before they even appear.
There are just far too many disadvantages to online schooling especially for elementary school-aged children who require a nurturing environment with an attentive teacher. I’m sure that’s where you come in which can only be a good thing for your children, but not every child enrolled in an online school has someone like you. Before we sing the praises of online schooling, one must always remember that children naturally need a human interface to guide learning. A skilled educator can read the faces of his or her students and instantly know when to offer more explanation or when to change modes to accommodate those with differing learning styles. A computer, no matter how sophisticated the application, just simply cannot do this.
well yesterday at the pool a kid called her stupid. After the girl apologized they were friends. My daughter is learning to solve conflicts through talk. most children she plays with are between the ages of 10 to 4 so she gets a good healthy mix of kids.
There isn’t much socialization in school, unless you count relentless teasing, apathetic adults and the rare but dangerous teacher that encourages children to hit another student. I’ve heard people use bullying as an argument for school. saying kids should get bullied so they become stronger….
When we can afford it she will make more friends and become stronger in karate class, for now she makes friends in ballet class. in fact she made friends from an enemy. once the girls understood each other, they were friends. 🙂
Abbi: Glad to hear that your child is socializing with kids who have things in common with her.
But I have to ask you about this:
“There isn’t much socialization in school, unless you count relentless teasing, apathetic adults and the rare but dangerous teacher that encourages children to hit another student.”
Are you serious–a teacher encouraged children to hit another student? How did you find this out and what did you do about it when you found out? Please don’t tell me you “heard” this from someone else.
Adults in schools are apathetic? That has not been my experience at the four school districts (across two states) in which I’ve taught. I know that four different districts does not speak for all, but with how many districts have you had the experience to say that school is a place with “apathetic adults?” I think your comment is a bit over the top especially when used as a guide as to whether or not school is a place for socialization. Really–let’s be honest about presenting reality for a moment instead of exaggeration and hyperbole.
“Are you serious–a teacher encouraged children to hit another student? ”
yeah it was in the news, I don’t know if I’m allowed to post links here. A teacher heard from a kid that another kid was being a bully. So they were all told to line up and hit him. Then they were told not to tell their parents.
Perhaps I am baseing my argument off my own experinces, but honestly as the school outcast punching bag, my family and I don’t have many good experinces. My mother was basicly told that my brother was out of control and he needed medication. They where happy with the results but didn’t bother to tell mom that my brother was a zombie in class and my parents noted he had poor grades. It had to be a result of the medication but they told him he was fine. It was played off as his fault, he didn’t study enough. That part of what I mean of apathy.
When I was bullied in elementry all the teachers would do is to tell me to handle it myself. If I could I wouldn’t have gone to them. My 3rd grade teacher took out a problem with my mother on me often. I distictly recall her giving me one on one spelling tests were I was the only kid taking it and she’d blow through the words pretty fast and I barely 3 words spelled out and the test was over. There were 10 words to spell. I failed each one. I hated spelling tests because I was punished. I’m sorry but thats not normal.
Part of why I homeschool is that in the 4 grade I was sent to specail ed school. They taught me very basics. I was years behind my age level and I knew this because the other kids would be talking about stuff I knew I should know, but I didn’t. So I asked the teachers to teach me. They wouldn’t and told me to teach my self. I know this sounds ludicris. It sounds ludicris to me. Teachers should be teaching. They shouldn’t refuse to teach a subject, they shouldn’t dumb a student down, they absolutly should not blow through lessons knowing the kid can’t keep up.
sorry this reply is late.
Add in the fact that some of those teachers actully physcally abused kids, and school officals laughed at you often when you tried to tell them things, or listened to your mother’s complaint all year about her kid coming home crying most of the time and then stick you with the nasty teacher that did it to you in the first place.
I may decide to send her public school one day but honestly after hearing the other moms complain they kinda echo my own.
Abbi, so sorry to hear about all your bad experiences. Please rest assured that not every school and not every teacher are like those you described. There were obvious injustices from your description.
It is horrifying to think that education professionals would engage in such behavior. I hope this community took the school to task.
I am so grateful to live in a state in which parents’ have a choice in education. My kids have school at home and they are far above the level of their peers who go to the local neghborhood school. They also seem more sociable, confident, and happy. Their homeschool friends are also very sociable and polite. They seem more “alive” than the kids who go to local schools. Those kids won’t even look you in the eye. And don’t seem to know history. My kids are having a wonderful education. If we didn’t pull our kids out of local school, they would have been lost in mediocrity.
I’m grateful that we have the freedom to choose. And looking back, I also was taught some false things in public school. My teachers were left wing nuts who made inappropriate remarks and actions toward the kids. If I knew then what I know now, I would have reported them to the school board. I’m glad my kids won’t have to go through that rubbish
If any teacher says she knows better than you do what’s best for your kids, run the other way.
In the beginning, parents required teachers to be well-trained and certified so that they could trust these “adults” to spend the day with their kids and try to teach them stuff. Now, we’ve created a monster! These “teachers” think they know better than parents what’s best for our kids. But in reality, teachers are just useful idiots to the unions who want Obama reelected. run the other way.
This is typical of the nonsensical response that comes back from parents on this sort of debate.
The question is “Do Parents ALWAYS Know What is Best?”. It isn’t about whether or not homeschooling is ok or not. It isn’t about YOU or YOUR child. It isn’t personal.
If you want to home school your child be my guest. Your child is clearly smart and doing well.
You had a bad experience of school and have still done ok. I congratulate you. However as I said the debate is not about you.
It’s not about whether you can be trusted to teach your kid.
Are you really saying that ALL parents know what is best for their children on ALL issues ALL the time? I think that is at best questionable.
I, for example, teach 11-19 year olds Mathematics. There are lots of people that know more than I do about teaching someone how to read. I can of course read. I love reading. I don’t know that much about the mechanics of teaching reading. In that area I don’t know best. I’m happy to admit it.
My two year old is beginning to be taught to read but my involvement is more supportive than active because I’m at work most of the time Fortunately for me my better half teaches 3-7 year olds and my mother was an English teacher and Educational Psychologist so I bow to their expertise on that one and have no problems doing so. When it comes to teaching subjects outside of Maths and Science my daughters teachers will have a far better knowledge of the pedagogy than I do. They ought to. They are trained to teach that subject. I’m not.
There are likely to be many issues in my daughters life where there are many people more knowledgable than I and hopefully I will be able to draw on their expertise and work with them but I’m not going to pretend that I know best because I don’t. It would be extremely arrogant to think that I do…
My mother for example has 3 degrees and extensive training in psychology, child psychology and child development. Should I pretend that I know better than her out of some misguided notion that as I parent I should know best? I think not…
My partner and I make the decisions about our child and hopefully we make them wisely. Let’s not pretend we know bets though because on many issues we do not.
It seems to me that many of the parents posting here cannot tell the difference between a point about parents generally, a point about some parents and a personal point about them specifically.
When someone says “Parents do not always know best” I don’t immediately think they are talking about me. I don’t get bent out of shape or upset. This is partly because they are right and partly because it’s not about me.
well I’m sorry but when peoples’ ability to understand the needs of their own offspring were called in to question by making the comparison of child abusers. It kind of became personal. Yes I personalized my post. But its less abstract that way. People do home school, other people send their kids to schools, parents make what they believe is the right choice for their kids every day. I don’t see how someone who, while educated, does not live with the kids 24-7 and teaches classes that may or may not have more then 30 kids would know better then the parent of said child. If the personalization of my posts have offended anyone apologies are offered. It was not my intention to make the post about me.
How polarizing can we be? We believe we are doing pretty well with the tough job of homeschooling our kids, and know many families doing the same. We also know many wonderful teachers doing their best to teach others’ kids.
On the other hand, we know some bad apples in both the homeschooling and traditional schooling environments who wreak various levels of harm upon children and the community.
Maybe we could spend our efforts improving both options rather than tearing them both down.
Yes, the main goal is to educate future citizens. And since each child is unique, the children’s parents who know them and love them more than anyone else on earth have the sacred right to choose what’s best for them. As long as children are educated, why is it skin of the nose of public teachers? It kind of makes the teachers sound like CONTROL FREAKS if they object to and belittle parents’ right to choose. If the homeschooled kids end up knowledgable, skilled, and productive adults, what’s your problem?
My best friend (husband) was bored in school and didn’t do his homework, but he aced all the tests. He was given low grades though. He thought, “I know this stuff, why should I waste my time doing this busy work?” I on the other hand did all my homework and aced some of the tests. We all learn differently. Not every student fits the pigeon hole of public school. It’s impossible to customize education to each student in a classroom of 20+. With a teacher who may be a little harried and merely mortal. And may have a chip on his or her shoulder.
That’s why it’s “Hello, Homeschool!” for some. And it’s become more and more popular.
And if homeschoolers don’t end up being knowledgable, skilled, and productive adults, don’t wag your heads. Because there are lots of public schooled adults who are not knowledgable, skilled, and productive adults. Thousands of them are in prisons, by the way.
But I’ve never met a homeschooled adult who was a failure. The ones I’ve met are either overachievers or married to one.
If teachers were to actually teach, and not indoctrinate so much, that would make it easier to decide if they “know” better.
On what basis do you make the insinuation that teachers do not “actually teach” and instead “indoctrinate so much?”
As an academic, I cannot allow comments to stand as rhetoric. It’s my “two bits” to your “shave and a hair cut.” So please enlighten everyone, or at the very least, me.
I’m going to step in here and give “my 2 bits.” And I hope the person your reply is for gets back on here.
In my experience, my teachers told Ronald Reagan jokes. Told us the 2nd Amendment was wrong and that we should ban guns. That was elementary school.
In high school, my history teacher told us that a fetus was “just a piece of meat,” and that abortion is not big deal. Another history teacher mocked Christianity. And he also, in front of the class, mocked my religion. He also showed us slides of Renaissance Art (which is great, I wish we wouls have gotten more of that. My elementary kids know more about Art History and Appreciation than I ever go the opportunity to learn. I just love auditing their online courses. I never learned that stuff in public school. I did learn some of it in college, though).
Well, this teacher showed a slide of Michelangelo’s David and he said, “No girls, that’s not what Mark —– looks like naked.” These teachers were totally inappropriate, but us teens thought they were cool. Just like the teens have said it’s cool that a female teacher hooked up with teenage boys in their school. So the teachers think they can get away with it because the kids aren’t going to tell their parents.
There is definitely a liberal leaning agenda for most of the teachers I’ve had. The teachers’ unions donate millions of dollars to the democrat party. And one of the perks of paying dues to the union, is that the union will tell the teachers how to vote. The teachers ridicule students for expressing conservative views learned at home. So with one stone, the teacher implies the students’ parents’ views are wrong, as well as the students’ view.
Don’t pretend like it doesn’t go on.
The experiences you had may have colored your concept of public school, but they are yours and yours alone. If you feel that your public school is not serving your community, get out there and make changes. Why abandon a public system that might be the only place to get an education for some of the community children? It is your responsibility as a community member to make the changes you seek, but be very careful as to what those changes are and who they serve. You need to keep the public interest in mind.
“There is definitely a liberal leaning agenda for most of the teachers I’ve had.”
What you are referring to when you say “a liberal leaning agenda” is actually a convenient little descriptor made by those who have specific political beliefs. It says more about you than it does about any “public school agenda.” What you are most likely referring to is a public school education professional’s acknowledgement of the injustices of certain social groups injecting their prejudices over other social groups. Schools are to remain neutral and, at the same time, respectful of the personal affiliations of those in the public constituency.
Let me tell you what I see going on when I hear this “liberal agenda” argument: Some portions of the “public” do not like that there are other people who are “different” from them whether it be in positions on religion, lifestyle or social status. And in some extreme cases, some portions of the public have little to no tolerance for people who are different from them by nature, i.e. race, ethnicity, parental citizen-status, etc. Tolerance is often called a “liberal agenda.” Schools are bastions of both acts of tolerance and an understanding of these differences, and in no way should education professionals be promoting any personal political stance in their classrooms. But, like so many other experienced education professionals who know children, I have found that children like to embellish the truth sometimes. It’s important to get the whole truth from the person who is said to have made the statements, and not from the third party, the student. If you yourself have had conversations with teachers while they have put their own personal political bent on topics, report them immediately. This is unprofessional behavior.
“The teachers’ unions donate millions of dollars to the democrat party.”
I implore you, STOP SPREADING THIS LIE! This is the exact type of misinformation that must end, and it is your responsibility to educate yourself on this topic, ESPECIALLY if you have taken the position of “educator” for your own children.
Unions do not donate one cent to ANY campaign—only PACs do. If union members wish to donate their own personal money to a PAC, that is their prerogative, but no union uses its members’ dues for this purpose—this is the law. Therefore, one cannot say that unions are donating the money. It is the PAC that donates the money.
Now let me tell you what PACs do. The PAC to which union members may choose to donate (again, independent of the membership dues) elects unpaid committee members to research the candidates in ALL parties by asking these candidates specific questions about education and other issues that affect society. Of the candidates who respond, those whose responses line up with the interests of the membership gain the endorsements and the funding of the PAC. These interests include issues that affect children, not just issues on how educators get paid, mind you. If candidates refuse to respond, they lose any chance of an endorsement. Many do not care to respond, so blaming the PAC for not endorsing them is foolish.
There is no one party that any teachers union PACs support. To say that PACs only endorse democrats is to promote more political rhetoric that you chose to believe instead of educating yourself to how these systems work. I suppose it is much easier to just believe what you’ve been told.
Again, if a candidate refuses to respond to the PACs questions, that candidate purposely prevents an endorsement. Nice play, isn’t it? Ignore the union PAC thus solidifying your opponent’s chances of getting the endorsement and then blaming the union for bias. Great tactic based on bad play, yet many anti-union candidates will use this against unions every time making themselves the “victims.” Any intelligent person would see that this is unfair. Surely you could see it, too.
The teachers union in my state has endorsed republicans, independents and democrats alike based on their platforms. But I can tell you this, if a candidate wants to dissolve unions, why in the world would a union’s PAC endorse him or her? I would think you are intelligent enough to understand this without putting a biased spin on it.
Now that you know all this, are you going to continue to spread misinformation about endorsements or are you going to set the record straight? I would think that you as a person of integrity would choose to do the right thing and stop the nonsensical lies.
“And one of the perks of paying dues to the union, is that the union will tell the teachers how to vote.”
Well if you believe it—it MUST be so! Uh, no. Nice try, though. A non union dues-funded PAC endorsement is not “telling people how to vote.” Teachers obviously have a right to do whatever they want, but saying that does not vilify unions enough for the union-haters.
“The teachers ridicule students for expressing conservative views learned at home. So with one stone, the teacher implies the students’ parents’ views are wrong, as well as the students’ view.
Don’t pretend like it doesn’t go on.”
It should NEVER go on, and if it does, there ought to be an investigation into this person’s level of professionalism. I would do it myself if I had the authority. I do not tolerate this kind of behavior and neither should you, but to make a generalized insinuation that “ALL teachers are using their children as political pawns by making political statements to them in their classrooms” is biased and irresponsible. This tactic is used often in the political arena by those who want to disband unions—my governor is fond of doing this on a daily basis. It is a disgusting and despicable charge to make a generalization such as this, and I would think that you, as an educator of your own children, would know better.
However, you are injecting more political bias into the argument by saying that “teachers ridicule students for expressing conservative views learned at home” as if “conservative” thinking is correct and what you call “liberal” is wrong. Political views have no place in the school environment, but if you look for problems, you will find them whether they exist or not.
It seems that “some” parents really do know best…how to squelch free-thinking.
Government monopolies are completely counterproductive. In California, we waste huge sums of money on public education, and now they are mandating education on all sorts of perversions. It will be the pedophiles haven, and an educational morass. A perfect breeding ground for democrats.
Waste money educating children?
Ignorance is far more expensive.
The commentor isn’t saying that educating a child is a waste of money. But there is a lot of bureaucratic waste in education spending. Just like the infamous $400 hammer in military spending, the same things happen in public education spending.
Something that would help is to get rid of Dept of Education, and bring edcuation on a more local level, at least a state level. But giving education funds to parents to use to choose a good education for their children, that’s as local as you can get. And there would be more accountability, less waste, and education would improve because the teachers and schools would have to, as Obama says, “Up their game.”
Our state education has a higher standard than the Common Core Curriculum, which is a national program meant to replace No Child Left Behind. We don’t want the Common Core, but we’re gonna get it. By the way, No Child Left Behind worked fine (I hear) in Texas, when Bush was governor, on a state level, but when Ted Kennedy cowrote the bill and it was implemented on a national level, well, you teachers know the rest. I don’t think you liked it much.
absolutely agreed. I think the problem here is that some of us are getting a little one sided. one person says parents don’t know best and lumps us in with child abusers, then we get the other end were some says teachers are bad and lumps them in with child abusers.
We have to remember there’s good and there’s bad in every human and which ever one we run into will greatly alter our perceptions but we can’t let that cloud our judgment, we have to be a little more open.
Government monopolies? School districts are locally controlled by the community. There is no “government monopoly” at work here–not yet, anyway. If the state has management issues in the way they run their departments of education, that is one thing, but local school boards have the power to control their districts and communities have the power to choose their local school boards…at least that is what has been the situation for many years. With politicians “taking over” the schools, communities have less and less power. This is why it of utmost importance that you support your local districts and the communities they serve instead of merely complaining about them.
What do you consider a “perversion.” Example, please.
“Pedophiles haven?” Yeah, I read the news, too. There are doctors, public servants and parents who are pedophiles, too, but that doesn’t mean that ALL doctors, and public servants and parents are pedophiles. So what is your basis for this comment except to present a short-sided generality of education professionals based on a few cases here and there?
I won’t even ask for why you seem to think that democrats have “breeding grounds”–it would probably weaken your argument if you spoke to that, and this discussion is about far more than “playing politics.”
I suppose the curriculum taught falls somewhere along secular humanistic lines. The school books of today do not tell the whole truth. You get politically correct teachers from a politically correct union. This turns out useful idiots to run amok in society. The system has dumbed down subjects that todays kids find boring. Now they can take electives as opposed to real classes in English,History or Science and Math. Yes, I take offence at this woman’s blog. When did teachers stop believeing in God? When the Secular Humanist union told them to. I have a real problem with them corrupting my child’s faith. So I will teach my child at home so she will not be a socialogical experiment for the progressive New World Order. That she will know more about the propaganda that the government is feeding our children in the public school system.
Many teachers are Christians and believe in God. I’m one for example. Christian and politically conservative are not synonymous. Nor would I set out to corrupt any child’s faith. There is a separation of church and state in public schools, which upsets many people, but it protects the faiths, the many faiths, of the students.
We had an experience in conf. with our kid’s 1st grade teacher who taught that Thanksgiving was about the Pilgrims thanking the American Indians. I reminded the teacher that Thanksgiving was about the Natives and the Pilgrims thanking God. The teacher replied that she can’t talk about religion. The kids were all Christians, I don’t think they would’ve broken their crayons if they heard the phrase, “thanking God.”
You wouldn’t leave Islam, Buddism, or Hinduism out of the history of the Eastern World? No, that would be impossible. But all to often, the PC teachers leave religion out the the history of the Western World.
So the teacher said they can’t talk about religion at school. But they apparently can talk about politics. Each day, it seemed, in the Fall of 2008, my kid would come home telling me how wonderful Obama is and that her teacher said I should vote for him. She wasn’t even aware that their was another candidate in the election. Of course I educated her on that myself. Parents need to fill in the gaps. I have never seen that in my lifetime, and I’m sure that the teachers are going to sing Obama’s praise again this fall at school.
That’s why we have to abolish the Dept. of Ed, and the teachers unions.
Reasons Public School Teachers and Unions are Failing Children and Bankrupting America http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/03/18/epic-fail-10-reasons-public-school-teachers-and-unions-are-failing-children-and-bankrupting-america-1/
The NEA’s Anti-American Agenda Threatens Our Nation http://www.natvan.com/american-dissident-voices/adv031393.html
got to remember, today most parents are products/results of the Liberals’ take over of America’s schools —- they don’t know any better.
@Abbi – My husband and I also decided home-schooling was the best option for our daughter. She too had a teacher tell her that something she learned at Space Camp several years before was “wrong” because the answer bank in her outdated textbook said so.
She attended a small public elementary school and benefited from having parents who were involved in her classrooms, the PTA, and education in general. She also had a group of teachers and administrators who were familiar with most of the children in their grade level and sometimes the whole school. She then moved on to a private school for two years until there was a major change in administration and focus of the school. At that time we explored public magnet schools but were troubled about the limitations because even the International Baccalaureate program was using a literature book she had studied 2 years before. Since the program offered no alternative, we determined home schooling was best for her situation.
Was our choice ideal? No. Would I blindly recommend home schooling for most others? No. But, with that being said, I firmly believe it was the best option for our daughter and she is now a PhD candidate in Engineering. Just yesterday, she indicated she is part of a very small/elite group of PhD students at her college this semester who are U.S. born females and an even smaller group of the same in Engineering. What we provided her in home schooling was the freedom to follow HER interests along with the tools and encouragement needed for success.
I do not in any way believe education professionals are all bad, nor do I believe they should be the sole authority in determining what is best for anyone’s child. While some schools are doing a good job, I believe those are few and far between. In general our public schools are not adequately preparing students with the math and science skills needed for college and they are missing in action in offering students not skilled or interested in college with trade school alternatives which could prepare them for well paying jobs.
IMHO
Very well said. Congratulations to your daughter!
oh I hope I didn’t give the impression that I think they are all bad. no far from it. Its just I think of schools have a preferred method of teaching and it doesn’t always fit. homeschool is fairly traditional as before there were public schools many children were educated at home. Thank you by the way. 🙂
I just read these punches and counter punches and have only one word to say as I have a high school education obtained i a public school, worked my way thru college 1962 thru 1973 getting my BS degree in Civil Engineering after spending 4 years in the US Air Force during this time also then going to Evening School while working 58 to 72 hours a week at my engineering job completed my Masters Degree in 6 years. I met very few teachers who were as important as my parents were in my education process and I would like to say without any doubt this “WARREN” character “IS” a “PUBLIC SERVANT” and is trying to spit “B–l S–T” out of his mouth and I definitely would not want someone like him teaching my child in a class room. In my 68 years as a professional I have never heard anyone trying to go on such a self ego trip. You earn respect Mr Warren, You don’t give it to yourself!!!! Enough said!!!
I must say that I have been both amazed and amused at the responses of those I assume are responding from the re-post of this blog entry. Amazed at the over-wrought, hyper-emotional hyperbole of many of the negative posts; amused y the amateurish attempts some few have made in trying to label me as “insecure”, for one (too funny), and Mr. Taylor’s post just above is absolutely filled with an antagonistic attitude. I think Mr. Taylor would change his mind about wanting his kids in my classes if he knew me, but of course, that is the great failing of fora of this type – we don’t know each other, so it is easy to be over-the-top and distraught at the tiniest perceived slight.
So to Mr. Taylor, I will not respond with any mean-spiritedness nor vitriol when I remind him again that I am not a “public servant”, nor do I “serve at the pleasure of parents” as one other respondent wrote – I sign a contract each year wherein I agree to teach certain classes for a certain (very small) amount of money.
What I find most interesting is that the tone of these posts pretty well proves my original hypothesis that the vast majority of parents are not the best qualified people to make curricular decisions fort their kids. I teach in a relatively small district, and each year we gain several students who have been “home-schooled” prior to entering the schools. On average, they are 2 grade levels behind where they should be over-all, and their knowledge of Science and Mathematics is all most nil. I have no doubt that their parents mean well, but they are not professional educators. Best leave schooling to the professionals. And Mr. Taylor, that is not B***S***, nor is it any kind of an “ego trip” on my part. Just the facts, as Joe Friday was fond of saying.
Oh, and Mr. Taylor, it is Dr. Warren, not Mr. Warren. ;-))
AFR has posted your post, and that is probably part of the reason you have had so many comments.
http://afrafrontpagenews.blogspot.ca/2012/08/do-parents-always-know-what-is-best.html
Quote from site:
” Friend,
When you think of parents, what things come immediately to mind? Are words like “starve” or “beat” among them? Shockingly, in a recent blog post, parental choice opponent Diane Ravitch has offered up a Louisiana teacher’s perspective to support the view that parents really don’t know what’s best for their children when it comes to education.”
” Believe it or not, Ravitch’s blog is not alone in her demeaning rhetoric. Union leaders and education bureaucrats from across the country have routinely belittled parents; they believe that their own power is more important than giving parents a choice in their child’s education.
This assault on parents has got to stop!”
The American Federation for Children has posted a link to this column on its Facebook page under the following heading:
“An outspoken opponent to education reform recently dared to ask, ‘Do Parents Always Know Best?’ She notes that parents starve, beat, tie up, and rape their children so why should they be expected to know what’s best for their education? Don’t believe us?Check it out and share your responses here!”
http://www.facebook.com/SchoolChoiceNow
Note: The American Federation for Children describes itself as “America’s leading advocacy group fighting for school vouchers and scholarship tax credit programs”.
Yes, and thanks to the AFR, this blog has gotten lots of posts. You know what they say, “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.”
I happen to have found this blog thanks to the AFR. And I appreciate them for it, so I can be aware of the things teachers are saying about parents.
My kids are schooled at home. Actuallyl, they belong to an online charter school. I just love having parent teacher conferences with their teachers. The teachers are asking me how my kids are doing. I think it’s so sad that normally, it’s the parents who have to ask the teachers how their kids are doing and how they behave, etc.
All to often, the parents are conditioned by the schools to let the schools teach their kids–not just the three Rs, but values and behavior. They let the schools feed their kids, even give them clothes.
The school districts do “free” summer lunch in the park for all kids ages 0-18. A lot of parents send their kids there for a “free” lunch who don’t truly need the assistance. We’re not rich, but it’s my responsibility as a mother to feed my own children. Some people really don’t have any food and in that case, the “free” summer lunch program is a good safety net. But if parents who don’t need the assistance wouldn’t take advantage of it, then that would save money that could go toward education.
There’s a lot of waste in education spending. I’m glad that my kids’ online school does so much more with fewer funds and it all goes towards education. Love it. Go AFR and PEC!
Actually, most of the money your online school is paid by the government goes to pay profits to the investors in the corporation.
The Pennsylvania auditor said that the online companies were charging double what they were spending–the rest was profits.
It’s a private company that provides the curriculum to our online school. Yes, I know they get government funds, because it’s a public charter school that we belong to. The curriculum is far, far superior to what my kids what get at the local school. So the private company has earned and deserves the money they get.
But the local school districts actually take a big chunk out of the money that’s allotted for my children to attend the charter school. And I know the dollar amount of the funds that are used for their online education and it is less than the dollar amount that goes to fund the education of each student at local elementary.
Our state governor signed a bill into law that would allow middle and high school students to enroll in up to 2 online courses to suplement their conventional pulbic school education. The students can choose courses from both public or private curricula providers.
Teachers unions fought the private providers being an option. So they updated bill to provide that the private companies wouldn’t be paid until the end of the course, and only if the student passes the course satisfactority. There is no reqirement for the public curricula option. The public provider will be paid upfront and whether the student passes the class or not. I know the private provider is superior anyway.
But my whole message is that everyone knows the public education system is broken. More money keep getting spent on education, with mostly mediocre results. The parents have blamed the teachers for years, and we all can think of lousy teachers we’ve encountered. But there have been a rare few that impressed me. But it’s not right for the teachers to attack the parents and saying we don’t know what’s best for our kids. That’s just wrong.
So, charter schools are a pretty good bandaid for now. But the NEA states that parents shouldn’t have the right to decide if their kids should go to a charter school. I disagree with that of course.
I agree with Steve Jobs when he said that in order to improve education, get rid of teachers’ unions. Mitt Romney echoes that. These smart, successful, and educated men know a thing or two about things. Romney has endorsed cyber schools. Yes! So the teachers’ unions endorse Obama. Of course.
dianarav, your comment: “Actually, most of the money your online school is paid by the government goes to pay profits to the investors in the corporation.
The Pennsylvania auditor said that the online companies were charging double what they were spending–the rest was profits.”
is an expression of total ignorance. You whine about a company providing education “for profit”, but even with their profit, the cost to the school district is always significantly less than a “not for profit” public school. Factor in the fact that the results are equal to or better (most often better) than a public school and your argument collapses.
Sorry, but there have been evaluations of the Pennsylvania online schools, and they have significantly WORSE results than the public schools.
They have lower test scores and lower graduation rates.
Read this: http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/PA%20State%20Report_20110404_FINAL.pdf
It comes from CREDO, whose chief economist is charter-friendly and conservative.
It was funded by the Walton Foundation.
Good conservative credentials.
And read this article about online schools in the NY Times: Online Schools Score Better on Wall Street Than in Classrooms – NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/education/online-schools-score-better-on-wall-street-than-in-classrooms.html?pagewanted
It really is appalling to read some of the previous comments by both teachers, parents, and others. This type of polarizing rhetoric is part of the reason why we are in such bad shape today as a society. as an administrator I work really hard to set the tone at our school for respect toward both students and adults. Students, teachers, parents…are held accountable. We MUST begin to work together as a team. No one in the triangle can be left out if we want to be successful. We need to stand together or we will all fall together. As professionals we should respect the parents role in their child’s education. If parents don’t respect us, we should ask ourselves what it is that we can do differently to earn their respect.
There seem to be an awful lot of teachers who are also raping students.
Do you have evidence for that statement?
If you pay attention to the news, there are frequent stories of teachers (male and female) who take advantage of students and seduce them, or just rape them. it happens more often than anyone would want to know. And there was that elementary teacher in CA who tied up the class, blindfolded them, and played a game with them in which he made them, ahem, taste his body fluids. The whole school was under fire for that.
That’s sick, I’m sorry to bring it up. But don’t act innocent as if you’ve never heard these stories in the news. You do pay attention to current events don’t you? If you don’t, I appologize. I guess you’re just ignorant. I don’t want you teaching my kids. They deserve a better learning environment than your classroom.
Here are the statistics from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, from the Fourth National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-4): Report to Congress, January 2010:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/abuse_neglect/natl_incid/reports/natl_incid/natl_incid_perp_char.html
Perpetrators of Child Maltreatment (which included “every alleged form of maltreatment”):
80% Biological Parents
12.4% Non-Biological Parents and Parent Partners
6.8% Others –which breaks down as: 3.6% Other Family Members, 3% Other Unrelated Adults and 0.2% “others”
It doesn’t say anything specific about teachers, but caregivers are included so I would think that teachers are a part of the 3% Other Unrelated Adults
In regard to Sexual Abuse:
37% Biological Parent
23% Nonbiological Parent or Partner = 60% vs
40% Other Person –which presumably includes the three groups of “others” mentioned above, other family members, as well as unrelated people. I see no further break down except by gender, of which 86% of perpetrators were male (about 80% of teachers were female at the time)
You are right, Venjeana. But DianaRav and the other teachers on this blog are in denial.
.
i don’t think it is helpful to treat “parents” as a homogenous group. Some parents know best about some issues some of the time.
If a parent thought they knew better than me how their child should be taught maths then it highly likely they would be wrong unless they are themselves a maths teacher. However when it comes to issues around the childs personality, mood, emotional well being etc there is every possibility that they do know best.
To suggest that all parents know what is best for all children in all situations all of the time is a nonsense that I doubt anyone actually believes. Parents who get angry about this often want what they want when they want it. They get retrospectively angry about not being consulted or not being listened to when they aren’t happy and things are not turning out how they want. They don’t like being called into school to discuss issues they see as unimportant though. These same parents get very angry about that…
We are supposed to both read minds and see into the future to correctly ascertain which issues we should be asking parents about and which we can assume we know best.
About 10 years ago I had a student whose parents repeatedly complained to the school because I was not changing my style of teaching in the way they demanded or consulting them before making decisions regarding their child. My response was to phone them at least 10 times per day to ask them about everything from how I should teach calculus to the most trivial of issues. They finally conceded when I got a colleague to sit with my class for a few minutes while I rang them during a lesson to ask their advice about I should teach integration by parts and then rang again to ask how I might get their child to stop talking and do some work. We eventually agreed that on some issues I did know best…
Parents generally know that there are things teachers know best about. Some don’t like to admit it though…
If parents don’t like the way the teacher is “teaching,” then the parents should pull them out of that school and choose a good charter or private school, or teach them at home. A lot of parents can’t afford to send their kids to private school or can’t teach them at home because they have to work. So a lot of parents have to settle for a mediocre public school where their kids get babysat while they are away from their parents.
But if the parents are able to make the sacrifices to do what’s best for their kids, isn’t it wonderful that we have the right to do so in America? Isn’t it wonderful that the teachers’ unions don’t run this country?
I take exception to the accusations that Ravitch writes against parents saying that they starve, beat and rape their kids. You know stuff like that happens in the classrooms at the hands of teachers. I don’t appreciate your attitude. Teachers are public servants who are paid by public government funds. I reiterate that us parents have created a monster and this monster is attacking us, in vain.
Homeschooling is more common than it’s been in hundreds of years now. And the majority of these homeschoolers are more educated and better socially adjusted than the majority of public schoolers.
But if parents want to send their kids to public school that’s fine. If they want to send them to charter schools, or private schools, that’s fine. If they want to school their kids at home, more power to them. At any rate, in America, we have familiies’ choice in education. If the teachers’ unions don’t like that, they can move to a communist country where they’ll feel more at home.
“I take exception to the accusations that Ravitch writes against parents saying that they starve, beat and rape their kids.”
Ravitch did not write that. Please look up top again. Everything that’s written in italics below the paragraph that begins with, “This Louisiana teacher disagrees” was written by that Louisiana teacher.
Ravitch often re-posts what people have written on her blog, as she did here, in order to promote discussions, but that does not mean she necessarily agrees with what they have said.
Based on what I’ve read, Ravitch is a parent herself, as well as a grandparent, and she supports parents. Parents in Parents Across America http://parentsacrossamerica.org/ and Parents United for Responsible Education will attest to that: http://pureparents.org/
Thank you for sharing those websites with me. Well, the fact that Ms. Ravitch would share this post about how parents don’t know what’s best for their children, could possibly mean that she agress with the sentiment. That is one of the basic tenets of the NEA. And the actions and attidtudes of teachers who’ve confronted me leads me to believe that that’s a belief of most public school teachers. Perhaps Debbie Squires of MI speaks for all teachers? And the posts I’ve read from many teachers on this site shows they mostly agree that parents don’t know what’s best for their own children.
That’s the attitude that communist governments have and they actually break up the family unit. And so it frightens me when a Debbie Squires or other “expert” says those things.
So when I caught wind of this from a Twitter friend, I had to check it out and tell you that I disagree with what the NEA says and what many teachers have said about parents not knowing what’s best for their children. It makes me sad to hear that and it makes me grateful that I don’t have to deal with unionized teachers anymore.
My kids’ online teachers are not unionized and are very respectful. They don’t talk down to me like their former teachers did.
Knittogetherinlove- Are you really suggesting that there are no parents that rape, beat or starve their children? Even if Diane Ravitch wrote those accusations (which she did not), on what basis do you object?
That there are SOME parents that do this is a well documented fact…
You say that homeschoolers are more educated and better socially adjusted than the majority of public schoolers… What is that based on? where is your evidence? We can all make outlandish unevidenced claims should we choose to…
Peronsally I object to your generalisations about teaching and public schools. You’re reight I do teach in the UK and I do not babysit. I work in a school in one of our most deprived areas and I teach the most challenging students in that school and I do not “babysit” them. I teach them Maths and I do so well. I do however object to being told how to teach by those that have little knowledge of Maths or teaching…
Parents know more than I do about their kids but surely you can accept that I know more about Maths and the teaching of Maths than most parents. Therefore in the area of teaching Maths the likelihood is that I know better than most parents. I’m not sure why this is controversial…
BTW do you have any evidence to support your suggestion that teachiing unions are against parents having choices? There seem to be a lot of unevidenced accusations flying around…
There are several things that I know better than most parents:
1) Mathematics
2) The Mathematics syllabus
3) How to teach Mathematics
4) The requirements of the Mathematics exams
5) How to get pupils to pass exams in Mathematics
6) What is required if students wish to study a Mathematics related subject at University
I am very fortunate in that I benefit from the support of most of the parents who children I teach. Most parents (unlike your good self it appears) acknowledge that I am a skilled, hard working professional that knows his stuff, cares about their children’s learning and will help their children get the best result they are capable of getting.
A classic example of this happens almost every year. The local community near our school want their children to become doctors. This is viewed by the parents as the most desirable profession so almost every bright child that meets the entry requirements (B grade in Maths and 4 other grades of at least C including English and the sciences in GCSE which is taken at 16) takes Maths along with at least two from Physics, Chemistry and Biology. In order to get into Medicine you generally need all A grades at A-Level (which is significantly harder, requires significantly more work and is taken at 18).
Every year my A-Level class contains several students who want to be doctors (or to be more accurate whose parents want them to be doctors) that scraped a B in GCSE without doing much work or beingmuch good at maths. Many of them lack the ability or work ethic to even pass A-Level much less get the requied A in it.
Last year I had student that was a very talented writer. She had previously excelled in English and History and yet had taken Maths and Science A-Levels on instructions from her parents. I told her parents that she would have to do 5 hours extra Maths work every week, attend the extra classes I put on for her and revise very hard if she wanted to pass at all and that an A grade was unlikely. They refused to listen to me because they were so determined that she was going to become a doctor. She did not do the required work. Her parents were informed of this on a fortnightly basis and did nothing about it. She failed all of her exams this year.
Next year hopefully she will take English, History and other subjects she is actually good at.
Did her parents know best? I think not
Hi Big Kid. That’s neat that you teach in UK.
Um, I never suggested that kids don’t get abused by their parents.
And here are a few quotes from the NEA, from the head of the UEA, and from Debbie Squires, a big public education honcho from MI
“It follows from these purposes that a charter should be granted only if the proposed charter school intends to offer students an educational experience that is qualitatively different from what is available to them in mainstream public schools, and not simply to provide a “choice” for parents who may be dissatisfied with the education that their children are receiving in mainstream public schools.” From NEA website regarding charter schools and parents’ choice.
“I suppose there are those who feel 13 years as a public school student qualifies them as an “expert.” Others may think parenting public school students or teaching youth on Sundays gives them “expert” insight into the role of a public educator. Is it too much to think those of us who have dedicated our lives to the profession may have a somewhat upper hand in public education knowledge?” Sharon Gallegher-Fishbaugh, head of state education association in an editorial that was printed in city newspaper.
And then there’s Debbie Squires from Michigan, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/08/debbie-squires-education-official-says-teachers-know-better-than-parents_n_1264025.html
I’m sorry that you felt attacked. I sense insecurity and unhinged anger.
@knittogetherinlove You did say “I take exception to the accusations that Ravitch writes against parents saying that they starve, beat and rape their kids.” didn’t you? (apologies if you did not). Unless you thought Diane Ravitch was accusing all parents of doing this why would you take exception? It is indisputable fact that some parents do…
On the subject of your quote from the NEA website I have to say that I do not know enough about charter schools to comment knowledgably. I do know that their UK equivalent costa lot of money to set up. They are also being set up in places where there is no demand for school places and not being set up in places where there are desparate shortages of school places. I would therefore agree that setting up a school SOLELY to allow parents choice is not a good use of the limited money available in education. Would you dispute that?
Sharon Gallagher is right. Most parents on not experts on education. Most of them are experts on their kids, but not how the exam systems work, not teaching pedagogy and not how schools work and what teachers actually do. Do you dispute that?
Is Debbie Squires wrong? Do you know more about education than a trained teacher. You must be most unusual…almost unique in fact.
Perhaps the education is very different in the US.
None of those quotes are evidence that TEACHERS are against parents having choices btw
I have 2 degrees in mathematics, one in mathematics education and will shortly be beginning a doctorate in teaching mathematics to gifted youngsters. If you,or most parents, know more about the teaching of mathematics than I do I would be very, very surprised indeed…
That’s not to say that parents don’t have useful input they can make about their child specifically, just that they don’t know how to teach mathematics better than I do.
I didn’t feel attacked. I was. You have made several accusations about teachers generally. As you did not exclude me from your accusations presumably I am included in them.
How you get the impression I am insecure is a mystery to me. I am an extremely good and highly successful teacher. I know it, my students know it, my colleagues know it and the parents of the pupils I teach know it.
Whoa, folks! I never wrote that parents beat, starve, or rape their children, Stick to facts, not wild-eyed prevarications! No mud-slinging!
Diane Ravitch
I beg your pardon. As someone unfamiliar with your blog and your style of writing. At first glance I thought you may be referring to yourself in the 3rd person. That you may be speaking about yourself being this Louisian teacher. Perhaps you could have written, “a Louisian teacher disagrees, etc.” It would have been a more clear way of writing. But I don’t mean to critique a professional teacher’s writing or anything.
“This Louisiana teacher disagrees. She says that parents should expect professionals to know what’s best when it comes to education. She says that parents and teachers should work together, but that it is irresponsible to assume that parents always know what’s best for their child.
I am tired of this attitude about parents knowing what is best for their children…” and so on. It was possible to be confused about who is really speaking here.
But anyway, Dr. BigKid, I know that all teachers do not rape children. I’m quite level headed. Thank you for allowing for the right of parents to choose homeschool if they wish. Is homeschooling legal in U.K.? I’ve heard that it’s illegal in Germany.
Big Kid wrote, “Unless you thought Diane Ravitch was accusing all parents of doing this why would you take exception? It is indisputable fact that some parents […]”
Oh, and BigKid I did not think that Diane Ravitch was accusing all parents of raping their children. I never wrote “all parents.” But I now realize that it is mentioned by “this” Louisiana teacher, whomever she is. But I have the reading comprehension skills to know that even the mysterious Louisiana teacher did not accuse all parents of doing these horrible things to their children.
But I am enjoying reading your histrionic British comments. It is culturally refining.
Thank you. It’s sad that the U.K. is having money troubles. But they sure put on a great Olympics. The U.K. was the birthplace of capitalism. And in those days it did flourish. Too bad the liberals took over. And in the last few decades it went downhill financially. Too many entitlements, etc. Your woman, Margaret Thatcher was right when she said something like, “Socialism is fine, until you run out of other peoples’ money.” I hope that things start looking up again and the world economies can stabilize and improve. It’s bad all over the world, but socialist countries were hardest hit by the bad economy.
Charter schools can be started and funded at least in part by private businesses
knittogetherinlove- I notice that you have not answered most of the questions I have asked you…
You also have repeatedly made some generalisations about teachers, homeschoolers, schools and unions that do not stand up to scrutiny…
Calling my posting style “histrionic” doesn’t change the simple fact that you are making allegations and generalisations that simply do not hold water.
knittogetherinlove- thanks for your kind words about the UK. your comment about entitlement is right in some respects although it isn’t as simple as that. All the major parties have signally failed to address the social security system when in power for the last 50 years. Nothing to do with liberals. Margaret Thatcher herself didn’t really address the issue.
Interesting the supposed liberals have widened the gap between richest and poorest…
Our economy probably will not pick up until the world economy does as it is so based on financial services.
Home-schooling is legal in the UK but it isn’t common. Most parents in the UK that have the time to homeschool either lack the required level of education/intelligence to do so successfully or have enough money to send their children to private school.
Most parents send their children to a local state school. The way the system works means that it is difficult to get children into schools unless you live near the school. This raises the prices of properties near outstanding schools. Affluent, educated people tend to be better at picking out good schools and gaming the system (buying a house next to a good school, using a family members address rather than their own, pretending to be of a certain faith to get their kids into a faith school etc). This means that those that might want to home school can generally get their kids into a “good” school and so do not need to.
The exceptions to this are those who cannot get their children into a faith school that matches their beliefs. This is rare as there are catholic schools, church of england schools, jewish schools and islamic schools in growing numbers. Some Jehovah’s witnesses homeschool for example…
In the UK the worst schools sadly tend to be in the poorest areas. The parents in these areas are either working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet and so cannot home school or are not capable of home schooling for reasons of language, education, intelliegence, motivation or a combination thereof. That doesn’t stop some of them from trying but it is rarely a success. More often than not we have to rectify the situation in a short space of time so these pupils have a shot at exam success.
Often home schooling is a necessity rather than a choice here. When a child gets permanently excluded from a school they can have problems finding a new school place. This is especially true when they were excluded for violence, sex offending or drug related incidents. The special schools for excluded pupils (called Pupil referral units) are full to brimming and very difficult to get pupils into. It is equally difficult to get pupils places in special schools for those with behavioural, emotional or social difficulties.
i suspect that home schooling may become more prevalent in areas where there is significant demand for school places. This is because there are not enough new schools being built. Central government think that local government should pay for them. Local government are faced with swinging cuts and simply cannot afford to do so. They think that if they wait for the situation to get bad enough central government will be forced to pay for it. In the meantime the pupils, parents and teachers suffer.
Unfortunately the government is more concerned with making education cheaper rather than better.
It seems to me that people are getting a parents right to make choices mixed up with “Parents knowing best”. Parents clearly know their kids better than anyone else is likely to. In the overwhelming number of cases parents are best placed and best qualified to make choices regarding their children (within reason). I will defend to the hilt any parents right to make reasonable choices regarding their kids. However that does not mean they “know best”.
Parents make bad choices all the time because they don’t know best. They don’t know everything. Parents that cannot look back at some of the choices they have made and think “I wish I had done that differently” are very rare indeed. Why? Because parents do not always know best.
I cannot for the life of me understand why this is so controversial. I KNOW, with absolute certainty, that there are many things about which I do not know best. As a parent I will do my best to make good choices. Most parents will. I’m not going to pretend I know best though because I don’t
Yes, parents are no more homogeneous than are the children in most classrooms today. (Do you teach in the UK –where they say “maths”, while we say “math” in the US?)
In some areas of education here, such as Early Childhood Education and Early Childhood Special Education, teachers are required to take courses in working with parents. I think it’s a mistake to not require that in virtually all areas of education, because it’s important to partner with parents throughout children’s schooling, not just when kids are little.
We all have different perspectives and parents can shed a lot of light on many things that we may not know or understand about their child. Sometimes there are inconsistencies, but not necessarily for the worse. For example, some parents responded with shock when I told them how well-behaved their child was in school, because of struggles they’d had in dealing with their child’s non-compliance at home, and they often asked for suggestions so they could facilitate that themselves.
I think parents are one of our best but least tapped resources for the teacher pipeline. (Can you hear me, Arne Duncan?) Certain programs like Head Start require parent involvement, so you often see parents helping out in those classrooms. Programs for older kids don’t always capitalize on parent interests in working in the classroom though, and they may even outright reject parents –which, understandably, can really hurt, anger and alienate parents. (That happened with my own Mom.)
Some of the most effective teachers I’ve known started off as parent volunteers in the classroom, including many from low income groups. Typically, they felt they’d found their calling, went back to school, moved into roles as paraprofessionals and, eventually, earned teaching credentials.
I think that everyone should be required to work as paraprofessionals in education before being designated as professionals who are ready to teach their own classes. That’s the model I think Teacher Education, school districts and states should be emulating, rather than increasing opportunities for TFAers and TNTP Fellows who take a 5 week cram course and then have free reign over their own classrooms. (Teaching 20+ unrelated, heterogeneous kids on your own is very different from the small groups tutoring they often give during their summer school training.) But, of course, increased classroom training/experience would be more time consuming and costly, and the real point of hiring minimally trained people in classrooms is to save money…
Well, “Math” is short for Mathematics. And so people who call it “Maths” may be from Ireland or the UK where they are taught proper English. But I think that saying “Maths” is more correct than saying “Math.” Because Mathematics ends with an “S.”
You’re right, I teach in inner city london in a very deprived area. Many of the parents of my students speak little or no English and have very limited knowledge of how the school system, the exam system and many of the institutions work. They are largely supportive but don’t always know how to support and often are not confident in doing so. The pupils are often more knowledgable than the parents about many of the rules, laws, conventions and institutions of our society than the parents. Some of the students abuse this situation to get away with a lot of things. I enjoy working with parents where this is possible.
Maths is a problem area for many parents so I helped run a scheme where there were maths lessons for parents and students to attend together in which the students would prepare for their exams and the parents were taught ways in which they could best support their children. It was very successful but had to be cancelled as my workload increased and it became unsustainable.
One more thing. When my kids went to local public school, they seemed to have a bad attitude. They seemed more withdrawn. And they yelled me at me a lot. When they shared some things the teacher told them that wasn’t accurate, they were shocked when I told them it wasn’t accurate. They wouldn’t believe me. They thought their teachers were more knowledgable than their mother. Then when I proved to them that what I told them was right and what the teacher told them wasn’t accurate, they started to wake up.
For example, my daughter would bring home the same homework every week. The same math homework–it never changed. The only thing that sometimes changed were her spelling words. “Mule” was one of the words. She told me her teacher said it was like a donkey. I told her that it was half donkey and half horse. We looked it up and she got interested in genetics. All from a spelling word that her teacher had defined incorrectly.
My daughter was so bored of having all those hourse of school in which she was bored and then coming home to do homework. It would take her 3 hours to get her homework done. Not because it was hard, but because she was too bored to do it. I thought, well, if I spend 3 hours coaxing her to do her homework each night, then I might as well be homeschooling her. And with her 2nd grade teacher holding her back from the rest of the class’ progress in math and telling us at conf. that our child will have a hard time in 3rd grade made us concerned. This child skipped kindergarten, but her 2nd grade teacher thought she wasn’t smart.
So luckily, I found the Parents For Choice in Education website and found online school. Teachers’ unions hate PEC and they hate parents having a choice in education. I’m very passionate about my childrens’ education and I’m offended when I read nonsense like the article on this blog. This 2nd grade teacher fought me on my decision to have school at home. But it’s none of her business and she sure didn’t do much good for my daughter while in her stewardship. Parents should have the right to take action to do what’s best for their kids. Period.
With apologies to Diane–I am absolutely DISGUSTED at the arrogance and hatred posted in this comments sections towards teachers, parents and teacher unions. It’s amazing how many generalizations are being made based on lies and misinformation.
Teachers are rapists? THIS is an argument for home schooling? Parents are child abusers? This is an argument that supports the statement that parents do not know best?
There are people in all walks of life who do good things and bad things. To color all parents or all teachers as child molesters because there are SOME who have done this is unfair and completely biased. The majority of parents and teachers that I have known have been nothing but true advocates for what’s best for the children in their charge. There are some parents who do not have the knowledge or resources to take the very best care of their children, but the majority of parents I have known are loving and dedicated to their children. Likewise, there are some teachers who might lose sight of what’s best for the children from time to time, but they have their colleagues, their administrators and their students to remind them on a daily basis. It’s easy to judge others when one hasn’t done their jobs.
The majority of teachers I have known want to do their best for their students. Nobody enters the teaching profession to get rich, and all the rhetoric about how teachers just want to collect a paycheck is insulting. I cannot even fathom how this could be an “argument” knowing what I know about the job and the professionals I see in it. Again, there is good and bad in all walks of life, but HOW DARE YOU color the profession based on such nonsense. It is reprehensible, not to mention hateful.
How can anyone make a blanket statement saying that parents do not know what is best for their own children? I am not saying that parents know everything there is to know about educating their children–I am saying that parents are partners in the education of their children, and they are very important to teachers and vice versa. The conversation lines ought to be open especially in the elementary years where child development is on a rapid pace. One thing I wish is that middle and high school environments were more personal and less assembly-line like so that teachers at these levels had more available time to counsel each of their students, but that is not the fault of teachers–that is how the system is run and funded. We need MORE teachers, not less, but we cannot pay for all that we need. Parents need to understand the system has its flaws, but certainly, take an interest in your child. Teach your child to be responsible. It’s a shame that there are so many parents who either don’t care enough to get involved or who make themselves TOO involved to the detriment of the school community by advocating for their own child, everyone else’s kid be damned. This is not how public systems work. The public is responsible for itself, meaning: The individuals should be held responsible for their role in public education but with the needs of the community, at-large, in mind. I do not stand for those with a purely selfish stance when it comes to education. The parents who are most helpful to their own children are also most helpful to the children of their neighbors. These parents are community-minded people and they are a big part of what make public schools great. They also teach children to be citizens, not “takers of rights and freedoms to do whatever they want.” This attitude, on the whole, is damaging to our democracy. It’s not what’s in it for you and yours–it’s what’s in it for all of us.
For those who are spouting off anti-union commentary, please outline exactly how unions are bad for the schools. From my perspective, unions provide protections against political firing and hiring practices thus creating a dedicated workforce that serves the community instead of a workforce hell-bent on job-hopping for the next buck. These protections ensure that people are being hired for their expertise, not for who they know. Unions protect the academic freedom of the educator to teach the curriculum AS PER THE LAW, not as per the standpoint of their personal feelings or of a type of religious zealotry that serves only a portion of the public. Religion is taught from an analytical sense–not for the purposes of prayer–because to do otherwise is unconstitutional. Unions help to negotiate employment contracts for total compensation which is a combination of salary and deferred compensation–this package makes life manageable for those who earn the abysmal salaries that the public can only provide. It is understood that the public can never pay a teacher what he or she is worth.
And despite what political rhetoric spews, unions DO NOT protect bad teachers. They only protect the right to due process for tenure charges that, if they are real, will result in the termination of the employee with the union’s blessing. The onus is on the school districts to make a case for termination–the union only prevents people from being accused without the opportunity to defend themselves. If a union teacher is found to be in violation of the tenure agreement, the union wants them out. If you did not know this before, you do now. Those who believe otherwise have been fed propaganda from a political faction that is trying to disband the unions all over the country by spreading false information about the tenure system. It’s abhorrent how many lies are said and believed by those who are ignorant to the realities of how these contracts work. The best stance is one that has devoured the ignorance of not knowing reality, and instead has replaced it with knowledge of the truth. If any of you who “hate” unions knew how unions actually worked, you would be singing a different tune. But I suppose it’s much easier to let politicians tell you the way of the world. Think for yourselves. Do research. LEARN about unions, instead of allowing yourselves to succumb to rhetoric and generalizations that manipulate you. I KNOW what a great many non-union shops do, and the way they treat employees is deplorable. Mind you, not all non-union shops are like this, but a great many are. I will always fight for the average person to have job protections–it’s in everyone’s best interest. And before you spout off about this union or that union, please know that not all unions are the same. I have told you about how teachers unions work to protect a workforce, and that is the only union in this discussion. So, next comment?
I wonder what people are teaching their children about tolerance if all they offer to this discussion is hatred based on untruths? For those who consider themselves Christians, I KNOW that the bible does not tell you to hate people and spread lies about them yet this is going on right here by the very same people who claim to have strong religious backgrounds. I apologize to those who are not screaming “religion in the schools” in these comments. Obviously, not everyone is the same which is the point of my post.
There is an epidemic of untruths about public education among the home schooling arguments here–I would like to discuss these points with people who actually have something to say that is based in reality and NOT rhetoric. Your ideas are important because you have them and you are part of this discussion community no matter what your intentions.
P.S. In case those of you who ALSO hate Obama (great…more hatred to teach children) haven’t noticed, the president’s stance on education is not 100% popular with many who read this blog, but how would you know that unless you actually DID YOUR OWN RESEARCH? Again, it’s much easier to make assumptions based on your own propaganda than to know the reality of situations.
I thought hard about whether to post these comments. My first reaction was to delete them. Then I decided that my readers should see the vitriol coming from these homeschooling parents. You have to wonder what kind of values they are instilling in their children.
Some of the comments were incredibly venomous and insulting. But I decided to let them go through anyway.
Do you think I should continue to post these comments?
I don’t like people who are so hateful to enter our conversation.
But is it instructive?
Or should I block them in the future?
I’d like your advice.
I had wondered about the kinds of posts that you mentioned getting yesterday, so it was instructive to see what you’ve been facing.
That you were blamed for saying something that had actually been written by someone else –and continue to be blamed for it even after it was pointed out that you merely re-posted that as a topic of discussion– suggests that some folks may just be on the warpath.
I think this is about much more than parents, children and teachers, since politics has also come up a lot. It’s very sad that so many people don’t realize they’ve been hoodwinked by corporate profiteers.
I’m very sorry that you’ve had to go through this, because you don’t deserve to be anyone’s punching bag. Personally, I would prefer to see it end now, please. (If you decide to not block though, I’m just going to ignore those posts.)
Thank you for trying to set the record straight.
Diane, you made the right choice to post all of these comments.
There is a poster in my classroom that says, “Every Voice Counts”–everyone has a place in this discussion no matter which side they are on. I do not believe you should block anyone with an opposing viewpoint from your blog even if other blogs do that very thing. Your blog is a community, and this is what makes it such a great “place”: As a scholar, you understand the need for all points to be represented, and you champion this.
I apologize for coming on so strong. I felt that there were needless attacks on the different groups represented here, and I had had enough of the lies that fueled some of the comments. It appeared that there was little to no counterpoint in response which is why I jumped in.
The attacks on you are completely uncalled for. It’s obvious to anyone who reads the blog without bias that you were presenting the original letter as a point for discussion–you were not presenting your own views.
The misinformation that was passed around via twitter (and a few other blogs) that made you a villain just shows the level that those who would spread untruths can sink when they make assumptions and generalizations. It’s quite possible that those who did offer their opposing viewpoints felt so passionately about the topic that they failed to do the proper research on whether or not it was your stance. This type of reactionary behavior is akin to, “Shoot first, ask questions later.” If people in this discussion feel that their viewpoints are important, perhaps they should correct the misinterpretation of your view online and in their respective communities. If they do not correct the injury en masse, they are no better than they wrongly accuse you of being.
The discussion is necessary, but people need to discuss reality, not rhetoric. We get nowhere when we continue to spread propaganda, no matter how good it makes us feel about ourselves and our personal decisions.
Thank you for speaking up. I have gotten used to attacks and misrepresentations. You know what they say about the heat in the kitchen. I am comforted when others speak up in my defense.
Diane
LG
I hope you understand that I am not endorsing the vast majority of what is being said here, but you did ask to name a union practice that is not in the interest of students. I think the last in-first out layoff practices that are standard in union contracts is not in the interest of children. There is a nice report on it here:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/education/jan-june11/teacherlayoffs_05-09.html
I have worked a lot in the non-unionized private sector, in both for-profits and non-profits, and I have never been a member of a union. Seniority has reigned everywhere that I’ve worked, whether in business or education, because experience has been valued there traditionally.
As indicated at the end of the above PBS report, an arbitration panel found no evidence of harm and let stand seniority and bumping in CT. Eliminating LIFO in public education is a strategy to bust unions and minimize costs –and one which is a pet project of Michelle Rhee.
I do think your observation that seniority is often important in deciding who to fire from an organization is correct, but I doubt that few take it to the extreme of using social security numbers to break ties.
I posted earlier about a teacher of the year in Sacramento that was fired because of first in last out. I understand that this was only one teacher, but to her current and future possible students, she was important. There are few organizations that would fire their best. Unfortunately, K-12 education is one of them.
As a tax payer and an economist I should also speak up for minimizing costs. There are too many urgent needs in society for us to spend resources inefficiently.
I’m sure that many of the veteran teachers with seniority who were let go were just as important, if not more so, to their past, present and future students, as well as their parents and the community in which they taught for so many years. I don’t think that firing senior faculty based on unreliable VAM scores or because they have a higher salary –which is often the motive– is any better than using a social security number.
When you a create a false premise like equating the sum of all student learning with the results on standardized tests, it’s easy to then build a case for eliminating teachers based on those test scores and claim make phony claims that getting rid of FILO should be the place to start. That’s the house of cards that Hanushek, Gates, Rhee et al. built, and I have faith that it will topple some day.
I have never had job security, since I’ve worked mostly in the private sector and haven’t had an opportunity to belong to a union, so I know very well what it’s like to teach without academic freedom or due process, as well as what it means to be the working poor with decades of experience and multiple degrees.
Employers call virtually all the shots in this country, and that is precisely why I must post anonymously. Frankly, it often makes me feel like I live in a police state, governed by those who pray to the almighty dollar. So, please, pardon me if I have little tolerance for economists who want to treat education like a business, dictate policies and fire teachers based on their perceptions of inefficient resource allocations.
I so wish there was an edit button here to correct typos!
@ Prof W
I made no argument about how to make the decision on which person to keep or which to let go, my post was arguing that strict seniority was not the best way to do it from the perspective of learning in the classroom. I created no premise about testing, true or false.
I too work without a net, at well below what beginning tenure stream faculty are paid in my department dispute the decades of experience I have. It has not made me feel like I am in a police state, perhaps because my employers appreciate the work I do. I take some pride in knowing that for most of my career someone has evaluated me annually and concluded that hiring me was not a mistake. I know that my employers think hiring some of my tenured colleagues was a mistake.
Finally, as a society we do need to figure out how to allocate resources, balancing education, healthcare, food, shelter, etc.
You’re lucky because we get contracts for each term (not semester), are evaluated monthly and can be let go after six or eight weeks –and we do not qualify for Unemployment Comp or government assistance.
In my youth, I stuck my neck out and did a lot of whistle blowing and I did lose my job once due to that. Since alert employers tend to claim other reasons for terminations, I was fortunate to have had a lawyer relative then who got me reinstated pro bono. I don’t have that luxury today. I’m a senior now and I should be retiring soon, but I have not earned enough income, nor gotten any benefits or pension, to do be able to ever do that, so I’m planning to work until I die.
In nearly two decades of teaching in higher ed, I came the closest to losing everything I own and becoming homeless this year, and I just can’t afford to take those risks with absolutely no safety net.
As long as this country is owned by corporate profiteers, THEY should be the ones who are held accountable for the inefficient allocation of resources and inequitable distribution of wealth, not the middle and lower income peons who work for them.
The reason I subscribe to this post is that I enjoy staying informed about current educational issues. Diana does a great job of keeping us week informed. It is sad that this discussion has been taken off track by parents who have had bad experiences with public education. As an administrator it has been my experience that if a parent comes to me with a problem, we are usually able to work together to solve it with a good degree of satisfaction. Usually those parents who leave unsatisfied are those who are unwilling to work with us or refuse to admit the role that they and/or their child play in the problem. Most parents are reasonable, but not all.
My experience with parents who homeschool is usually that they have preconceived ideas about public ed and it is a waste of time discussing education with them. They have their reasons for homeschooling that have a lot to do with segregating their children and that is their choice. But they should stop blaming teachers and judging us in public Ed. Stay home and educate your children if you choose, and I will educate the children in my school whose parents choose to be here. I am sure there are many reasons for your choice, so now that you have made it move on and leave us professional educators to our job of educating.
I hope that the parents of my students will continue to work together with us so that we can continue to improve and be a team for success. I wish that educators would refrain from making disrespectful comments to parents because we each play a role, as LG states. I choose to take the high road and I hope others do so also. It seems that many here have had bad experiences, I am sorry for that, but I see much more good than bad at my school community. Not every school is like the one where I work, but I have always worked hard at creating an environment that is respectful, no matter where I have taught. It starts with your own behavior. We can never forget that we as teachers are role models for our students!
Oops, well informed!
You are spot-on about the pre-conceived notions of the home-schooling crowd. In the region where I reside, most (not all, of course) of those who home-school are radical evangelical fundamentalists who have decided that the public schools and the teachers therein are out to “brain-wash” their kids and turn them into godless communists, or something like that. As you noted, you really cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone of that bent, because they base their worldview in religious belief rather than in logic. It is impossible to engage in debate when one side refuses to acknowledge that there are alternate points of view.
This thread leaves me speechless. I was always under the assumption that parents and teachers needed to work together for the benefit of the child. I have had parents over the years who were antagonistic from the get-go and nothing I did all year-long pleased them, but I have found that most parents have been very supportive once I explained what I was doing and the rationale behind it. Setting a collaborative tone at the beginning of the year makes a world of difference.
Warren you are a demeaning idiot. A parent who home schools their children are NOT the weird radicals you frame them to be. It’s people like you who drive parents to home school their kids. You so called professionals who seem to know everything there is to know about somebody else’s child are failing our kids left and right. It is the so called professionals who have decided what, where and how these kids advance or don’t through the system. I am now 60 years old and grew up in the Louisiana educational system. You professionals are the ones who refused to help me through 4 years of stuggling through math. You are the ones who belittled me and shamed me when I asked questions I did not understand, put me in the back of the room and told me to shut up instead of helping me. You are the ones who decided that instead of teaching a subject it was better to just spend hour after endless hour posting information on 4 blackboards for the entire class to memorize for your tests, just because you hated the idea of teaching us to understand the subject. Yeah I remember how many crappy professionals I struggled with who knew so much more than my parents about what I needed to get through the educational system. By the way, none of you prepared me for college. Few of you cared one way or another whether I learned anything. I managed ok out in the world but sucess was a stuggle because the Educators, the teachers, the Principals didn’t do the job they were hired to do. I wanted to learn. I probably had ADD but since nobody even knew what it was then they just assumed I was lazy or stupid or didn’t care. I did care. I wanted to learn, but so few of you even bothered to show you wanted to teach. Don’t expect me to have a lot of compassion for your cause Warren. You’ve chosen with your unions to make a mess of the educational system. If there are good teachers out there who really want to teach may God bless them and I would support them. But the system has been crap. I know I struggled against lousy teachers when my son with dyslexia struggled in school. Now I have grandchildren in the system and 1 has benefitted enormously from a year of home schooling. So you want respect? You want help? Then TEACH instead of trying to manipulate the political system. Then you will get MY respect and help.
First off, Michael, how you were treated as a student is terrible, and I can understand your frustration. However, that was how many years ago in only one state?
Yes, we all have personal stories for and against public education, but it is irresponsible to let one story rule the opinion of an entire system. I was educated in public schools in the Northeast, and I will say that not only did I have among the best language arts and math teachers, I had probably the best science teacher I have ever met in my life in my school. He influenced me and others in my family to seek the truth and learn as much as we could about the world. He even influenced my brother to become an electrical engineer–one who worked on the high definition constant. If you have an HDTV, thank a public school teacher for fostering the love of learning in one of its developers. I will tell you this: Your personal story is just that…yours. To use that as your basis for public education is wholly unfair and completely demeaning.
I’m sorry that you struggled with the system then, but how is it that the system has changed since then? Change is the best thing about public systems–they are constantly morphing into something better because the public demands it, and this is precisely what has been happening and continues to happen in public education. Education has come a long way in the last 45 years especially in helping children with special needs or those who struggle with ADHD. Back in your time, there were a lot of different social ills in our country–surely you cannot color today’s issues with those of that era with a straight face.
I have asked this of others, but apparently, you missed it. How exactly is it that unions are bad for public schools? Let’s hear your diatribe. I’m ready to discuss this with you.
Yeah, and remember those teachers who would waste our time talking about their personal lives instead of teaching the subjects?
You know along with public funds being wasted on unnecessary areas, time is wasted too. Especially in middle and high schools. At that point, the teachers just give out the assignment and then the kids are expected to work quietly or listen to the gossip, bad jokes, etc., from the teacher who has a captice audience.
When I had trouble in Geometry. My teacher didn’t help me during class time. But he told me to come in before school and get some help. My transportation situation wouldn’t allow for that. So I didn’t get help at all from the teacher. My family helped though, a bit. I think the school day could be cut in half. And then have some tutors available afterwards. One on one attention is where it’s at.
One-on-one isn’t feasible for educating the public–the public simply cannot afford it. So if you are suggesting that the public adopt a system of education that is that expensive, better get used to paying more in taxes. You won’t, though, because it’s clear from your comments that you personally don’t believe that your taxes should go to help anyone but yourself and your children. So how would you fund this? Would you just allow some people to have this but not all?
I tell my students personal stories all the time–it is a way to connect with them, and they really do appreciate knowing me as a person. This helps develop trust and speaks to the purpose of learning. We don’t teach subjects, we teach people, and by showing students that we ARE people, we are showing them the value in learning.
Since you think telling personal stories is “wasting time” and feel instead that teaching should be “all-business,” I implore you to inject the same inhumanity into the educating tactics you use with your children if you feel that showing students you are a human being with a life is wrong.
One on one attention for a student doesn’t need to be expensive. And it is possible. It’s call 21st Century education. It’s called online school, virtual school, or cyber school. Couple that with a parent and it’s something that has been wonderful for my family.
Homeschooling is another way to give children the attention they need as they learn. Some children may need a little more attention than others.
There are a lot of possibilities that don’t need to be expensive. We just need to think outside the box.
Whoops, I just read the rest of your post.
“it’s clear from your comments that you personally don’t believe that your taxes should go to help anyone but yourself and your children..”
I didn’t write anything remotely similar to this. I’m sorry if you got that impression. I don’t mind my property taxes going to support public schools. I am quite aware that many families are not able to have school at home or send their kids to private school. And I know that it’s important to educate the next generation. My main point is that parents should have a choice in education and that they know what’s best for their own children.
I talk with my kids all the time and listen to them, but when we’re learning the lessons, we focus on them, other ideas may come up and that’s okay. I do have the advantage of being their mother and can have a lot of time outside of school time to talk with them too. But we’re always learning, aren’t whether it’s “school time” or “home time.” And that’s something parents can do even if they don’t have school at home, right?
But I do think it rather solopsistic for a teacher to tell the class about his or her dating life, or their divorce, and they shouldn’t say inappropriate things that in appearance seem like sexual harrassment. That was my point.
“But I do think it rather solopsistic for a teacher to tell the class about his or her dating life, or their divorce, and they shouldn’t say inappropriate things that in appearance seem like sexual harrassment. That was my point.”
Agreed–there is no place for that kind of personal information or subject matter in the classroom. Children are far too impressionable to be involved in personal discussions such as these.
I am horrified that anyone would deign to engage in these types of conversations from a personal standpoint, but if it has happened, that person ought to be investigated for unprofessional behavior. As an educator, I take exception to non-clinical mentions of personal topics. Conversations about these issues are best left to parents, although some parents are not equipped to counsel their children. That is where guidance counselors, school psychologists and nurses can offer help, but there are rules of discretion and protocols regarding personal privacy that must be followed to protect both parties.
Obviously, there are instances where topics regarding emotional and physical health are going to covered in health and social science classrooms, but there is no place to inject personal information about the instructor into the conversation unless it is something benign.
I tell stories about my cats from time to time when I need an example of a kind of learning process. Second grade students love to hear about them, and often ask about them, but students should never be privy to personal or intimate details about any adult’s (or child’s) life outside of their own family, and even that is up to the discretion of the family, not the education professional.
And thank you for teaching me a new word. I actually had to look that one up!
Excellent. Kids love it when teachers talk about their pets. They really do.
You do realise that arguing that ALL teachers and ALL schools are bad because YOU had a bad time in school umpteen years ago is utterly illogical and insane don’t you?
When I was 10 I broke my arm. 3 different doctors over a 2 month interval looked at it and said it was sprained. Eventually I was sent for an x-ray and my arm had to be rebroken so it could be set. If I said “I’m not going back to any medical practitioner ever again because they’re all useless, I’ll deal with all future issues my family might have myself” it would be akin to your argument…
I think that you benefited from changing doctors. Perhaps children might benefit from changing schools.
Go ahead and change schools, but you still should pay into the community infrastructure that keeps kids from becoming criminals and robbing you as you sleep because they did not have access to a free education. 😀
I agree but that isn’t what is being argued here. I’m all for pupils changing schools if there are problems that are not easily solved.
I’m merely pointing out that “There is anecdotal evidence that some teachers are not good and some pupils have a bad time in school so therefore I will not let any teachers near my child” is not a logical argument.
Nor is “I’m homeschooling my child because I had a bad time at school many years ago.”
Nor is “I saw on the news that a teacher somewhere did something terrible to students. Therefore I am homeschooling my child.”
All of these arguments are irrational, illogical, nonsensical and insulting to the many hard working professionals in education.
That’s not to say that parents shouldn’t home school their children and I fully support their right to provided they can do so well enough. That support does not extend to supporting some of the ludicrous arguments that are proliferating accusing teachers of all sorts of things.
I really don’t care whether or not people home school their children provided they do so well. I do care about people unfairly denigrating the teaching profession. Even more than that I care about logic and making sense.
I often oppose nonsensical arguments not because I care deeply about the issue (although in this case I do) but simply because nonsense irritates me.
All the talk of indoctrination makes me laugh. Every time there is some sort of societal problem schools are expected to solve it. When every problem society faces from teenage pregnancy to knife crime from drugs to gun crime, from illiteracy to obesity is looked at the first question on many lips is “Why aren’t the schools dealing with this?” I don’t know about the US but in the UK we try, with our meagre resources and time spent with the kids to push against the multi-billion pound advertising, peer pressure, poverty etc. That is apparently acceptable indoctrination (What else would you call it?)
Parents have no problem with indoctrination they agree with…
Funny that.
I find it interesting that this teacher who did her best to avoid the political aspects of education would then so nonchalantly accuse so many parents of being lead astray by some politician. Are you kidding me? It would seem that this teacher believes that while 95% of teachers know better about a child’s education, most parents know nothing about education, don’t care, or are purposefully hurting, abusing, mistreating their children. There is no criticism of the unions influences on the profession or even the government as if they don’t affect what, how, and even why our teachers teach. Nonsense. Not that she did not make some good points, but overall I have to disagree and say I hope parents are MORE involved in their children’s schooling so they are taught by teachers who hate them. Remember that special needs kid who was bullied in school by his teachers and the father had it on tape? Of the two people recognized on the tape only ONE of them were fired! But this blogger doesn’t think that might be relevant.
“There is no criticism of the unions influences on the profession or even the government as if they don’t affect what, how, and even why our teachers teach.”
So what is your research on that topic?
As for the what I’ve researched mostly about homosexuality being taught, but also in the area’s of history and science there are many influences that come from outside of the schools and classrooms that are not from parents and often parents aren’t even notified.
As for the how, well standards and practices change all the time I know, but it seems that good teachers are fired because they happen to be new at the job because of tenure policies in unions.
As for the why, it may be a leap and certainly not indicative of ALL teachers but haven’t you noticed the rise in accusations of teacher student sexual relations, sure some are false but the way that seemingly sexual predators and/or bully teachers are protected by unions is ridiculous. It shouldn’t be so difficult that 16 NY teachers who are accused of sexual misconduct can still teach even after independent investigation found actual misconduct. The HuffPo mentioned that the arbitrators were possibly worried about their jobs and decided to issue penalties, fines, or suspensions so they wouldn’t be overlooked when unions and city officials choose people to arbitrate their legal dilemmas.
“As for the how, well standards and practices change all the time I know, but it seems that good teachers are fired because they happen to be new at the job because of tenure policies in unions.”
Who is to judge who is a good teacher and who is not? I know plenty of newer teachers who are excellent new teachers, but experience counts for a great deal in the classroom.
“As for the why, it may be a leap and certainly not indicative of ALL teachers but haven’t you noticed the rise in accusations of teacher student sexual relations, sure some are false but the way that seemingly sexual predators and/or bully teachers are protected by unions is ridiculous.”
Actually, union members’ due process rights are protected. If tenure charges are brought up on a teacher, an investigation will prove whether or not this person is unfit to work in the schools. If the charges are false, it’s a darn good thing there was someone who had this person’s back. The union doesn’t want sexual predators in the teaching profession. The idea that a union would is preposterous.
“It shouldn’t be so difficult that 16 NY teachers who are accused of sexual misconduct can still teach even after independent investigation found actual misconduct. ”
The key word in that statement is “accused.” You didn’t say convicted through the hearings process–only that misconduct was found through the independent investigation. Is it possible that independent investigators could be biased?
“The HuffPo mentioned that the arbitrators were possibly worried about their jobs and decided to issue penalties, fines, or suspensions so they wouldn’t be overlooked when unions and city officials choose people to arbitrate their legal dilemmas.”
The arbitrators were worried about “whose” jobs, the accused teachers or their own jobs?
It’s this kind of conspiracy thinking that perpetuates ignorance. Unions only support a teacher who has been accused of something–unions do not have any power to hire or fire anyone.
Let me frame this issue this way…if you were accused of something and let’s say that you did not do the crime, would you want to be found guilty before you’ve had a chance to prove your innocence?
Give them an opportunity to speak, and then, if they are true criminals…terminate them and put them away, but please, PLEASE do not misunderstand the purpose of a due process hearing. Unions protect people from witch hunts. You would appreciate the same protection from unlawful termination if it was on your behalf, no doubt.
Unions actually have very limited influence on policy or how, what and why teachers teach. If they did the education system would be a VERY different one. What was the last government education bill or policy that the unions were happy with? Unions successfully oppose decisions largely when the process behaind the decision making has not been done properly in some way. That’s not the fault of the union but the fault of the decision makers…
Look at the long list of policies that unions oppose. They are still policies aren’t they? They have still been brought in aren’t they? Despite the opposition of the ALL POWERFUL UNIONS…
Most people who complain about unions are merely parrotting propoganda and cannot evidence any of their claims…
You are however right about the government being deserving of criticism.
After reading your comments to be honest I’m wondering if you read the same latter as me because it didn’t say anything of the sort.
The writer suggests that parents are awayed by politicians (note: not all parents). Are you saying they are not? No parents are swayed by politicians?
The only comment about 95% of teachers is that they are committed and do their best… Do you dispute that?
I don’t recall their being a comment about “most parents” in what was written and all the references to “parents” were clearly from the context about SOME parents.
I too wish parents were more involved in their childrens schooling and have run several programs to try to get them more involved. I’m not sure what making teachers hate them (who do you mean by them exactly? It is unclear from what you have typed…) would achieve.
The bad teachers you describe are a tiny minority. I’m not sure that you or anyone else tarring all teachers with the same brush is supposed to achieve…
I could give you plenty of anecdotes of both bad teaching and bad parenting. It does prove anything other than there are bad teachers and bad parents out there. We all know that already so what would be the point.
The existence of bad teachers does not mean parents know best.
Some parents know best some of the time. They make the best decisions they can and within reason should have every right to do so. I would hope that when deciding on something they don’t know about they would consult someone who knows more than they do. I know that I do. Parents all make some mistakes. Parents will all make some bad decisions along with the (hopefully mostly) good ones. However lets not pretend that they are all-knowing. They aren’t.
Parents have the right to make choices. They should.
Within limits parents have the right to make bad choices. Within limits they should.
Most parents do they best they can with the tools and information they have to work with. That is all they can do. On the subject of school, teachers will generally, for obvious reasons, know more about how schools work, how the exams work, the curriculum, their subject and teaching pedagogy than MOST parents. It is surely in the best interests of parents to make use of that greater bank of knowledge. It is similarly in the best interests of teachers to make use of the parents greater knowledge of their children.
However to pretend that ALL parents ALWAYS know what is best for their children is ludicrous. It is also something that can be immediately disproved.
I’m a parent. I do not ALWAYS know what is best for my child. Therefore parents do not ALWAYS know what is best for their children.
‘Certainly they should have a say and be part of the decision making about the child’s education but parents also starve, beat, tie up, and rape their children. They also spoil them rotten and don’t expect them to do anything and teach them that they are “entitled”.’
Now there’s no reason to believe that she means all parents but there is no such qualification here to indicate whether she is talking about most, some, many, any, etc. And then to make a such a strong statement on teachers is to me, just a tactic to subtly attack the role parents have in their child’s lives and hint that teachers know better.
When it comes to the child of a parent, (except for extreme cases like rape or abuse, etc.) I think the parents should be the ultimate authority when it comes to matters such as schooling, I’m not disputing that parents may not know as much about how a school works as a teacher would/should know, but that pales in comparison to the way a parent knows their child. Teachers should be more than accommodating to the parents of students (especially when their salaries are paid by them) and while its not expected that every teacher can make special considerations for every student, in general when parents object teachers (and schools) should listen and do everything possible to address the objection, and either try and appease the parent or explain why its not possible. Teaching shouldn’t just be a job, it is a service, so teachers should serve the parents the best they can. The parents should be given tools to make the decisions for their children not teachers, teachers and schools provide choices for parents. No one expects you to always know what’s best but you should be able to choose when you want assistance or even someone else to choose for you. In my opinion that is the case less and less nowadays.
“And then to make a such a strong statement on teachers is to me, just a tactic to subtly attack the role parents have in their child’s lives and hint that teachers know better. ”
At no point does the writer suggest that parents should not have the right to make decisions. Nor does the writer attack the role of parents. The writer attacjs the BEHAVIOUR of some parents and quite rightly. I find it interesting that people find the suggestion that trained teachers know more about teaching than untrained parents so offensive. To me it’s simply a statement of fact.
“I think the parents should be the ultimate authority when it comes to matters such as schooling,”
They are, within reason. However some parents seem to tthink their every whim should be met, their every demand, no matter how impractical seen to because they pay their taxes (No matter how impractical, unfair or ridiculous)
“I’m not disputing that parents may not know as much about how a school works as a teacher would/should know, but that pales in comparison to the way a parent knows their child.”
Sadly “knowing their child” does not equate to knowing how to teach their child maths. Nor does it equate to knowing how to get their child through exams. These are things about which teachers generally know best. Parents knowledge of their children is important but THAT WASN’T THE QUESTION…
As I keep saying the questions was “Do parents ALWAYS know what is best for their children?”. A question for which the answer is obviously no.
“Teachers should be more than accommodating to the parents of students (especially when their salaries are paid by them) and while its not expected that every teacher can make special considerations for every student, in general when parents object teachers (and schools) should listen and do everything possible to address the objection, and either try and appease the parent or explain why its not possible.”
Most teachers bend of backwards to accomodate reasonable requests from parents. Most teachers do everything they can to cater to the requests and objections of most parents WHEN THEY ARE REASONABLE. Sadly, while most interactions with parents are pleasant and perfectly amicable many objections, requests and demands from parents are in my experience completely unreasonable
Also teachers salaries are not paid ny parents, they are paid for by the state. Pandering to every whim and unreasonable demand of any parents who feel that their child deserves special treatment because they’re different to all the other children in the class is not in my job description. When I consider the hours I have spent listening to parents complaining about their childs undeniably poor behaviour resulting in them being told off or how their child is a kinaesthetic learner i get angry. It’s not my job to pander to special pleading on behalf of one child. I teach over 200 children in my average fortnight. I’m not going to bend or break the school rules because some parents believe their child is special. I do my best for all the children I teach and work with the parents where I can. If that isn’t enough for some parents they are welcome to move their child to another school or teach them at home.
“Teaching shouldn’t just be a job, it is a service, so teachers should serve the parents the best they can.”
Teachers should teach the children as best they can. That is not the same thing at all. Schools are not orphanages for children with parents.
“The parents should be given tools to make the decisions for their children not teachers, teachers and schools provide choices for parents.”
I don’t want to make decisions for parents. I would like my expertise to be respected. I would like people that do not have my training or expertise to acknowledge those facts. I would like to work with parents in a climate of mutual respect. That only happens when we acknowledge each others knowledge, skills, strengths and weaknesses.
Sadly there are those parents who seem to think there aren’t any gaps in their knowledge, that they know how to do the job of teacher better than teachers. That they ALWAYS know best…
Sadly there are a minority of teachers who do not acknowledge the importance or potential of parental involvement in schooling…
I don’t know if you’re referring to me in your alliteration regarding “prejudice prideful prattling professors”, but I do get why some parents may be frustrated and angered by schools and teachers, because I’ve been on both sides of the fence.
Years ago, my mom felt repeatedly unheard by our large urban school district, beginning when I was in 1st grade. By the time I was in high school, she’d just about had it. The school wouldn’t listen to her when she told them that all of the courses they placed me in were not at my instructional level (She was definitely right about that). Eventually, after a lot of arguing, the school agreed to transfer me out of all but one of those courses. I ended up really struggling in the course they kept me in and I would have failed it, if my mom had not returned to school at the end of the year and talked my teacher into passing me –which was not an easy task.
My family moved to the suburbs, my last year of high school, and raised my much younger brother there. I took him to Kindergarten his first day of school, because my folks were out of town and I attended college nearby. Families were invited to stay and observe. The teacher had all the kids color a happy face and, when they finished, she evaluated each picture, one by one, in front of the entire group. She criticized my brother and a couple other kids for not following directions. I was appalled that the teacher was so negative and evaluated kids in public on their very first day in school. When I told my mom, she was concerned, too, and she decided that she was going to do whatever she could to be involved in education there. She became the PTA president and, eventually, she was elected to the school board.
My mom often spoke negatively about teachers. Ultimately, I was finding it difficult to understand how generalized her views towards teachers were though, because by that time, I was a teacher myself, albeit in a different arena and location. I tried to speak with her about it, but she just insisted that I was different from other teachers.
My mom’s perceptions of teachers and her contention that I was the exception to the rule never changed. I think this demonstrates how strongly a series of negative experiences with schools can impact people and their general views of teachers.throughout their lifetimes.
Sorry for the prattling…
Really you tie up, starve, beat and rape your children.. that’s not what’s going on in my house… you’ve got problems.
Please read: https://dianeravitch.net/2012/08/16/what-i-think-about-parents/
Sensationalism like this Ms. Ravitch is not helpful and a tactic beneath your esteemed reputation.
Please read https://dianeravitch.net/2012/08/16/what-i-think-about-parents/
Parents suck ur wrong mine won’t even let me walk down like 12 houses down to go pick up a friend
I am a teacher, the above email does not sound like a response from a dedicated teacher. More likely from a union organizer!