I was on the Charlie Rose show last night. I was very excited to be there. Here is the interview.
Over the past two years, as the debate about education has gotten more and more heated, I have had many opportunities to express my views on the radio, especially on NPR, but not so many opportunities on television.
I represent “the other side” in a very one-sided debate. I support public education; I respect the education profession; I oppose privatization and high-stakes testing. On the other side are the forces of corporate reform, the folks who are pushing privatization and high-stakes testing and spreading negative messages about those who do the hard daily work of education; there are many of them and they have been interviewed by Oprah and all the major talk shows. Their views are often amplified in Time and Newsweek and other media outlets.
Up until now, as the debate wore on, I have had only two appearances on major TV shows: the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, which was fantastic (he is just a great guy to talk to and his mother is a teacher, so he “gets it”); and a 30-minute debate with Geoffrey Canada on NBC’s “Education Nation,” a program that has been consistently tilted in favor of the privatization sector.
A couple of months ago, I received an invitation to the Charlie Rose show. I was interviewed on April 12. As I sat in the green room, I tweeted that the show would be on that night, not realizing that the show does not necessarily run interviews on the same day they are taped. I arrived at the studio an hour early; the make-up artist did a great job, making me look at least 10 years younger than my 73 years.
I have to admit that I was nervous. I usually am not nervous in interviews but television itself makes me uncomfortable. There is an old saying that when you are on radio, no one knows what you wore, and when you are on television, no one remembers what you said. When watching television, people get distracted by things like clothing, a hair out of place, facial expressions, hand gestures, whatever. So, unlike radio, I keep saying to myself over and over: Relax, smile, sit up straight. That sort of thing is distracting.
But I was nervous for another reason. I felt very keenly that I was speaking for millions of educators who don’t have a voice. I wanted to do right by them. I didn’t want to let them down. And I was speaking for millions of parents who want so much more than the high-stakes testing that is being inflicted on their children. And I didn’t want to let them down. I was speaking for my grandson, who is in kindergarten in public school, about to step onto the testing treadmill. And I wanted to bring some broader perspective to the current situation, to show how the daily attacks on public education make no sense.
So with all this in my head, the moment arrived. I enjoyed talking to Charlie. He is a very sympathetic interviewer. I felt good about the interview until I left the Bloomberg headquarters at 58th St. and Lexington Avenue and went around the corner to sit in a restaurant and reflect over a drink. Then I felt terrible. I felt that I hadn’t done as well as I should. One question stuck in my head. When Charlie asked about my disagreements with the triumvirate of Duncan, Rhee and Klein, I talked about why I opposed closing schools and how that hurt communities. Not good enough. I should have had a checklist of disagreements, starting with high-stakes testing and privatization. Why didn’t I delineate the stark contrast better?
When I saw the interview last night (and I hate seeing myself on television and almost never watch), it didn’t seem as bad as it felt at the time. I made my disagreements clear throughout the interview: I spoke against high-stakes testing; I said that charters don’t get better results than regular public schools; I spoke about the importance of having a strong public education system; and I ended by listing the things that we must do to improve education: a full curriculum; early childhood education; an end to high-stakes testing; a strong and respected education profession; taking steps to reduce poverty.
As I look back, this is what I hoped to accomplish: One, to be positive, not talk about the negative; two, to get across a clear message about how we get back on track as a nation.
I don’t know if that’s what came across, but that’s what I was trying to do.
Diane
Diane Ravitch's blog 
You are far too hard on yourself. You were excellent, and articulated your (our) case very well.
I would only add one thing: it is legitimate – in fact, I’d say it’s necessary – to introduce into this debate the actual records of Rhee, Klein, and Duncan. As a teacher and superintendent, Rhee was mediocre at best. Klein’s legacy is ruined due to the testing recalibration in NY. Arne Duncan was unable to do in Chicago what he demands of other school systems:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/education-secretary-duncan/why-duncans-record-in-chicago.html
This HAS to be part of the conversation. These people continue to enjoy their platforms based on their track records; we need to question those records to determine if they deserve to be heard.
Thanks for all your efforts. This is how things get done: one interview at a time. I wish I could do more to help. I read your entry yesterday about the Romney agenda. Although I agree with you, I am skeptical that the Obama administration would do anything differently. Any thoughts about that?
The Obama education policy has facilitated the radical rightwing policies of Romney by making high-stakes testing and choice key elements of Race to the Top. The big difference between them now is vouchers and the return of the private sector to the funding of student loans. Romney will push for both, Obama is opposed. Romney demonizes teachers’ unions, Obama welcomes to the table (although he has done nothing to support them when they are under attack, as they have been in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana and other states).
Diane
Thank you, Diane, for speaking for us teachers. You are the voice of solid reason and common sense. I wish we had more opportunity to be heard, but it feels like no one is listening.
Mary
A great Interview!
Many of us spend our days encouraging and facilitating this kind of mindfulness and reflection with our students; we spend our nights wondering whether we model it sufficiently ourselves. Thank you for your excellent example and inspiration–and, for whatever it’s worth, a great ‘job’ in the interview. IMO you spoke bravely, clearly, and proudly–as always–for the millions of educators and students who don’t seem otherwise to have a voice. Would that we could hope for such clarity, conviction, and honesty from those whose agendas we oppose.
Diane, I thought you were brilliant–especially when you said that you did not take disagreements with others personally. You spoke from the heart and were honest about your own growth. Rather than getting into a they say, I say, you stated what you have learned about the state of public education in America.
I am a retired music teacher–thank for your promotion of the arts. Yes, it is critical for children to have some joy in their day, which can happen in music. However, joy is just one of the things that children learn in music class. Children’s brains need the arts–visual and musical; their brains and bodies need physical education. And children need to hear stories read to them and reading for pleasure opened to them in school libraries. Kudos to you for supporting a broad-based education that touches all areas of children’s learning.
Back to last night… For me, the most important part of the entire interview was when you stated that closing schools is like stabbing a knife into the heart of a community. Schools are one of the few remaining stabilizing institutions in neighborhoods. In the area where I live, grocery stores left for the ‘burbs. Retail stores moved to malls, or were replaced by dollar stores. Mainstream churches closed their doors. Failure, isolation, loss of hope fill communities as each of these institutions move out. Schools are the last safe place where families and community members gather, rally round, and support one another. What happens when the last institution pulls out? What happens when the heart dies?
Diane, you are too modest. I’m sure you did an outstanding job on this show, and I’m only sorry I did not see you in Arizona. Few people will admit they were wrong as you have done when you worked with the so called conservatives. I question if many are what Senator Barry Goldwater would consider a conservative. It takes a person of courage, integrity, and deep commitment to do what you are doing. The Barry Goldwater that I knew was also your type of person. Please keep up your great effort.
I am now spending a great deal of time doing research, once again. I checked out Michelle Rhee and found a very expensive promotion for doing away with teacher tenure. I also found what I consider to be an untruth. She is quoted as saying that once a teacher has tenure, he/she has a job for life. This simply is not a true statement, but this is being used to do away with tenure for all teachers. I believe the people supporting her are those interested in charter schools that will be run for profit for them. It is her intent, according to her web. to raise one billion dollars for this effort.
The DC Opportunity Scholarship Program that someone quoted Gov. Mitt Romney wanted to use as a national model was a failure. The research (ies National Center for Education Evaluation and Regional Assistance) reported to Congress, as they were required to do, that there was no gain in reading and math. Yet, this program has been extended for five years under another name. Why? Michelle Rhee’s accountability has been questioned while she was in DC from information I found on the web. How could a Mayor of DC appoint her anyway? I find this strange!
Gov. Mitt Romney has selected the same people that President Bush Jr. and President Oboma surrounded themselves with to destroy the people’s schools. We must not allow that to happen because our democratic process depends upon representative government in schools. Once all schools are turned into charter/choice/voucer schools and take government money, our diversity in education is gone. I noted that the OSP gave vouchers to religious parents to attend “public charter schools”. Why? We do have constitutional seperation of church and state in our Constitution.
Last, some sudent who received vouchers to attend private schools did not attend. The only gain the above research showed was that the attendance rate improved with the students who rec’d. vouchers. My question is were these students counted in the increased drop out rate, or where did the money go? Did the private charter schools receive this voucher money, or was it returned to the Treasury Department? I have many questions regarding this total restructuring of our schools, and it’s about time that all citizens stand up and ask some questions. As our children are educated, so goes our nation!!!
Oh bless you Diane. You did a fantastic job of getting your important message through. Your thoughts here are even more touching to me. You speak like a true parent and grandparent. We are always wondering if we could do better. Keep up the fight. Many of us are listening intently and learning from you. We are growing in support of reclaiming public education from the vulture privatizers. This mom thanks you.
Dear Diane,
After Al Hunt wrote about you (positively), I sent him an email asking him to talk to his good friend Charlie to get you on the show. I also wrote a few emails to the show after the first airing of Oprah’s “Waiting for Superman”. Charlie had so many “reformers” on after that, but never had the author of the most valued and best-selling book on the subject–Diane Ravitch!
Two years seems a very long wait. But “good things come to those that wait!!” And you were great!!! My only criticism would be that you deserved a whole hour.
As for the “evaluation” question, do you agree with the program used in Montgomery, Md.? Winerip wrote an article which pretty much covered what you talked about. And if I understand correctly, Montgomery has decided not to take the RTTT funds in order to keep their fair and balanced (non-testing) evaluation system.
I really hope Charlie has you back again (for an hour) so you can expand on those points about Duncan, Klein, Rhee and Gates and places like Montgomery.
PS: I want to thank your son too!!
Thank you for your support! I wish I had had more time on air to explain that “peer assistance and review” works (I actually said it without naming it), and to explain why so many of the current mandates are harmful. But I am grateful for the time I had and for the chance to appear on Charlie Rose’s show.
Diane
Diane, I didn’t see the Charlie Rose interview, but a friend did, and recommended that I download your latest book, which I did. The reason she did is that I was trained in psychological testing for clinical/empirical, educational, and corporate applications (selection, team-building, etc.) and she’s heard me more than once ranting and raving about the perils of those who have no understanding of the principles underlying the construction of tests making value judgments about the results of those tests. She’s also heard me speak to a Chamber of Commerce’s “Education Committee” about the danger of abandoning public education, for many of the reasons I think you espouse (I haven’t read beyond the first chapter yet, but I see an educator’s building of the case in action).
In terms of administration (budgeting, plant, management of employees, etc.) the business principles of Peter Drucker work. But I doubt that Peter himself would ever have presumed to tell an engineer or a marketing director or a customer service rep for a telecommunications company or any other professional how to do his job or how to measure her progress.
To do so is gross micro-management, which cripples the jobholder, even in the corporate arena. It has certainly crippled our teachers, placing even the most talented in the schizophrenic position of having the quality of their own performances, and indirectly their livelihoods, dependent not on their own achievement, but on the achievement of others. Accountability is crucial, but the metrics used to analyze performance have to 1) make sense and 2) be empirically proven to have relevance, something policymakers seem to have lost sight of, assuming they ever had sight of it in the beginning. Your skepticism, in my mind, is simply the foundation of critical thinking, a skill that, alas, our government officials at all levels seem to be lacking.
What can we do to help you get the message out?
You mentioned that you did not see the interview. I didn’t have the link when I posted this blog.
I have it now: http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12375
Well, I’d say I was “preaching to the choir.” LOL. You did a fabulous job of articulating the very issues I was alluding to. Please keep chipping at it, piece by piece, blog by blog, speech by speech. I don’t have the education credentials (MA Psych) but I am a product of public schools (in the 49th and sometimes 50th state in some rankings) where lawyers and farmers and business executives and psychologists who’ve never spent time in a classroom other than when they were students seem to think they know more about education than teachers.
Thanks for saying what you did about Race for the Top. I recently applied for a job as a psychometrician under the program in an Atlanta metro county whose school system lost its accreditation within the past 10 years. I would not have lasted long there, even if I had been hired. I know what I know, but more importantly, I know what I don’t know. Even in business, that’s why you hire professionals in the subject area and let them have at it.
Just watched the broadcast, and you nailed it. After viewing it, I had a good sense for what it was you were against, but also a sense for what you favored. I too agree that your response to the Rhee/Klein/Duncan question was spot on – focused on the policy questions and not on the personalities.
Thanks for your blog, and for your continued work.
I finally had a chance to watch the Charlie Rose interview. As usual, Diane, you spoke well for students, parents, teachers and school communities. Thank you for speaking out for everyone yet again!
I had to rewind when Charlie mistakenly called “Race to the Top” “ROAD to the Top,” as I’d thought he’d said “ROTE to the Top.” (&, actually, “Rote” is more like it! I think we critics have found a new & improved name!)
While you couldn’t–within the time frame given–cover everything, I’d like to add another deficit area of high-stakes tests & scoring: the written portions of the tests are scored by humans. Scored by humans who make mistakes. Scored by humans who might have not have any business scoring such weight-laden tests (people for whom English is a second language, people who are obsessive; people who must read hundreds of essays {imagine a non-trained high school English teacher!} people who have poor eyesight who must sit reading essays for hours on end, etc.)
To learn more about this, I’d recommend the book, “Making the Grades: My Misadventures in the Standardized Testing Industry” by Todd Farley ( 242 pages, Paperback, 2009, PoliPointPress, $16.95). It’s a fascinating, funny & heartbreaking read, but a quick one–my colleagues & I couldn’t put it down.It answered all our suspicions about who actually scored these tests: when we’d read our test-preps, we were astounded at the scores given on the written examples. “WHO scored these?!” we’d say.
Ironically, I used a Pearson Help Wanted ad (for assessment scorers)for a bookmark– “Hourly:$13 hourly rate,pay increases on the hourly rate
(Milestones) awarded at various thresholds.
-Performance Pay By Response: Earn set amount for each student
response scored.
-Employees can earn average $13/hour with the potential to earn more.
-Day Shift: 8 AM-4:30 PM,M-F.
-Evening Shift: 6:00 PM-10 PM, M-F, (+10% shift differential).
(And–can you imagine scoring test essays after having worked at another job all day? How accurate would those scores be, especially if you were not professionally trained in composition?)
-Bachelor’s degree required, but it may be in any field.
-Will be required to provide proof of eligibility to work in the U.S.”
But–read the book and find out who and how your now-closed school’s tests were scored.