The Noble Network of charters in Chicago has come under criticism on this blog and elsewhere for various reasons. The network collected $400,000 in fines from low-income families, who are required to pay a $5 fine for disciplinary infractions. Noble network charters are named for the super-rich people who endow them, like billionaire heiress Penny Pritzker, now U.S. Secretary of Commerce, and billionaire hedge fund manager (and Republican gubernatorial candidate) Bruce Rauner. Some get high scores, others do not.
This letter comes from a former teacher at a Noble charter who is now teaching in a Chicago public school. She does not explain the reason she changed jobs. What do you think of her description of the two systems? What could CPS do to address the problems she describes?
I am a former Noble teacher and a current CPS teacher. Diane, I really have to say, you are wrong on this one. There are some things Noble needs to grow in, sure. But I could actually teach my children at Noble. I can’t at my current school. So much misbehaving, cursing, on phones during class, acting out, disrespect for everyone (teachers, staff and their peers). It is horrible. I am at my school because I believe all kids deserve a great education, but this is ridiculous. I have a teacher in the room next to me that cusses at her kids, and I mean the F word! I walked into a class and saw a kid watching porn on his phone. I almost threw up. This was a normal class period. Parents don’t understand how bad it is. They have an idealized memory of school and not a real understanding of what is being robbed from their kids simply because of a lack of empowerment of teachers to DO anything. Decide what to teach in your class (nope). Discipline your students (nope). Put in extra hours (nope).
Noble may have been picky, but parents were involved and addresses their kids behavior to avoid that $5 fine. AND students have to earn four demerits within two weeks to get a fine. A simple mistake here and there is no problem.
CPS better wake up. Charters are not the answer, but if CPS is too afraid to see what they are doing right and get on board it will be their undoing.
Not to mention Noble has a feeling of family that I don’t see at my current CPS school. As soon as the bell rings teachers are GONE. At Noble teachers would stay until 6pm almost everyday meeting with kids to make sure they knew the material. At my current school they actually TELL me to leave when the bell rings.
Maybe if you teach in a selective-enrollment school or in a privileged neighborhood, but you can’t go to Humboldt Park, Englewood or Back of The Yards and tell me Noble isn’t a better way to go. Just go visit Gary Comer High School (Noble school in Englewood) and THEN let’s talk.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
Three words in this teacher’s description make all the difference: “PARENTS WERE INVOLVED”… one HUGE advantage charters have is that their parents are necessarily involved and engaged in their children’s lives. Public school parents who want their children to attend a school other than the default “neighborhood” school must get involved— if for no other reason than to complete the paperwork required. As these engaged parents effectively abandon their “neighborhood” school the number of “disengaged” parents becomes proportionately larger… and motivating the children of disinterested and disengaged parents is FAR more challenging than motivating the children of parents who have high aspirations for their child. Let a Noble network take over in a “default neighborhood school” and see if their methods work…
Let’s answer why Noble can fine the parents when the kids misbehave and why the public schools can’t or don’t.
I think this former teacher revealed the answer when she said the parents are enveloped in the Charter School—isn’t that one of the filters the Charter schools use? It’s obvious that many of the parents in this teachers public school aren’t involved and public schools are often limited by laws in the ed code if each state that these corporate controlled schools do not have to deal with. For instance, thanks to the Ed Code getting rid of kids who cause problems is extremely different.
Why not just change the laws?
Yes exactly. The Charter Schools cull the kids that are high performing, that come from families who are involved and motivated. They they claim victory when their school that consists of these “proficient” kids, are all deemed proficient. Wow! Then the leftovers, the kids left at the public school, the ones with the discipline problems and the non-involved parents flounder and their school is “failing’. Hmmm…
And to make sure this process repeats, Obama’s Race to the Top and draconian Common Core agenda will keep raising the bar so that every public school in America will face the same fate—even public schools that outperform more than 90% of the world’s schools in other countries.
When the law says that a school is a failure because it doesn’t sent 100% of its graduating 17/18 year olds to college, no one will succeed.
And it’s obvious that this is where we are headed. Right now Race to the Top set the goal that 100% of 17/18 year olds must be college ready when they graduate from high school—(the evidence >) something no other country on the planet has ever achieved in the history of the world or even demanded, even South Korea.
For the few US public schools that may achieve that goal, I predict the law will change to 100% must go to college and graduate four years later or the public schools those children attended will be labeled failures.
Here’s a pull quote from a piece that was reported by U.S. News.com:
“First, states like Massachusetts, which took part in the (PISA) test, did remarkably well. The state’s strong tradition of high academic standards, accountability for students and teachers to meet those standards, and its approach to expanding schooling options with charter schools is a model for the nation. While it might be hard to replicate the success of Hong Kong in the U.S., adopting the best practices of a state like Massachusetts shouldn’t be as complex.
“Second, while you can become a savvy reader by having parents who read and talk to you when you are little, math is something you learn in school. And the sooner you are exposed to math, the better you will do. Research from Northwestern University actually contends that early exposure to math not only boosts one’s ability to master math and science, but also seems to be correlated with better reading skills. But you need a teacher who knows the subject and enjoys teaching it.”
Caution: the U.S. News piece leaned in favor of fake Ed Reform but even with that, there was enough info about Mass to offer a little bit more info to help reveal the propaganda war going on that’s designed to fool as many Americans as possible.
For this teacher to make and apples-to-apples comparison between Noble schools and an “all are welcome” public school is a song that people are tired of hearing. The lie that won’t die. The demographics of the students between the two are entirely different. They kick students out in huge numbers (sending them to publics) and just to get in to Noble you have to have motivated parents. Right there you’ve completely rigged the game. Add the funding advantages of the charter profit-making machine and you’ve got a recipe for…well, it turns out to be sub-par performance and a plethora of anecdotes about how wonderful it is.
In reality this teacher, who completely skirted the issue of her new school employment, should just read this from your blog:
This teacher points out some real problems with certain public schools. It is a shame. One thing that is clear is that without some discipline in the schools, many kids are robbed of real opportunities for education, and the teachers just burn out. Why can’t administrators support efforts to discipline unruly students in their schools? Parents also need to be supportive. And…the students need to learn to be accountable for their actions. There are bright, capable kids in every single school, but the culture of the school does have a strong impact on them and on the amount of learning that goes on. Many charter schools recognize this. Yes, they tend to go TOO far in the direction of ultra-control, but at least they understand that a chaotic environment does not promote learning. There is a middle path between robotic conformity and total disengagement.
When will people stop comparing apples to oranges? The neighborhood takes all comers, no matter what. It’s truly “No Excuses”. Noble hammers square pegs into round holes until they turn round. Anyone too stubborn to turn round goes to the neighborhood school, the school this teacher is at. This teacher should have been writing about how the charters suck up all the students who have parental support and segregate all the students who are on their own to a neighborhood school. This teacher just fell for the myth that public schools are failing because of it’s “inherent failures” and the charter schools succeed because of their “innovating practices”.
And can we please see how much Noble receives per pupil from CPS vs. the neighborhood school. I bet that would shut some mouths. Let’s not forget the $400,000 extra they get by stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. Wow, so innovative.
And students swearing? Watching porn? I went to a affluent school and students did these things too. These aren’t the hallmarks that you are in a terrible situation.
I’m sorry because this person is in my Union but it sounds like they have a lot of thinking to do if they think they are going to be doing any teaching.
No, I have to agree with her. Teach in one of those schools that has been abandoned by the system. There are many reasons why charters are not the answer, but they may be an easier answer for those who are trying to get out. Try as I might, I can’t fault a parent for trying to save their child. We had a series of articles recently in the Chicago Tribune about inner city residents fleeing to Iowa to escape the violence and dysfunctional nature of their Chicago neighborhoods. People still needed intensive social services, but they got the support they needed to learn how to be contributing members of their communities and gained the advantages of decent housing, good schools, and safe neighborhoods. By the way, in many of those Chicago neighborhoods, it isn’t safe to stay at school late, union rules aside. However, Chicago teachers are much better equipped to speak than I.
Illinois is a state where the minimum wage is higher than the national average but lower than the $10 per hour that Obama wants by executive order. While the caring world is trying to increase the minimum wage across the board, Republican gubernatorial candidate Rauner of Rauner Noble charter school fame said he wanted to LOWER the state’s minimum wage. Talk about ignoble. So much for caring about his poor Noble charter students and their parents.
Personally, I think that’s supposed to be an incentive for poor people to vacate, considering all the gentrification in Chicago that is simultaneously occurring while public schools are starved, shuttered and made into dumping grounds as charters are expanded. I believe the message from the ignoble powers that be to people in poverty and their kids is to either agree to being subservient, including in military style charter schools and jobs with unlivable wages, or get the hell out of town. It’s not happening fast enough for them though and I’m sure they really wish we had a Katrina to make disaster capitalism more rapidly come to life here.
I would like to add to the fact that Title I funds have been cut for support that many students should be receiving. I only taught in Title I schools in Phoenix. I had students who I highly suspected were high-functioning autistic, ADHD or had emotional/behavioral problems. I was given little or no assistance with these students. They weren’t tested or diagnosed as they should have been. They didn’t receive counseling, etc. I did the very best I could to support them. But, it was frustrating to know they needed more help than I could provide. Most of the parents I had were good, caring parents. They just didn’t understand their rights to get help for their children. In some cases, I did have parents who just didn’t get it or care. But, the public schools don’t get to pick and choose our students. I suspect the teachers you are working with are fed up, so they choose to leave as soon as their contract says they can. I worked in schools where most teachers stayed and prepared for the next day. Many of us stayed once a month until 8 PM to have a student of the month event. I do think teachers are being burned out and these difficult situations are being used to get rid of many teachers close to retirement.
Even this brief posting is enough to conclude that charters are not public schools. Just the differences between the students and parents and rules make it clear that the Noble Network and CPS schools are not comparable because they aren’t the same in significant ways.
But consider the fact that advocates/promoters of charters run CPS. Could they possibly have an interest in running public schools into the ground so that, no matter how awful the charters, the public schools still look bad?
I do not gainsay the person who made the comments in this posting, but her remarks are the beginning of a genuine discussion, not the end.
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The threat of being thrown out of a school is a powerful approach. Parents who care will follow up and students may change. Parents who don’t care and the problem students are gone. Whether right or not, it works. It keeps the 5% from impacting the remaining 95%.
In most cases, though, public schools cannot do that. In fact, President Obama and Arne Duncan have been harping on the high suspension and expulsion rates of public schools, without mentioning the even higher rates in charter schools.
LP,
Agree.
In my area our suspension/expulsion rate are part of our school profile and are available to the public. Public sees big % of discipline cases and thinks “dangerous school”. As of course they are encouraged to think.
So, administrators are “encouraged” to be very judicious with the more severe discipline.
Catch 22.
Either we put out “bad kids” and look dangerous or we keep them in and they cause problems in some classes.
Of course, no one ever mentions using early interventions, counseling, mentoring, early detection of special education issues (some “bad kids” are angry because they are frustrated, IMHO), alternative educational settings (night schools for working kids, half day programs, etc.) or anything else that might actually help the kid.
Just kick em out and segregate the “good kids” away from them.
As a teacher, I agree interventions help. But as a parent, too, I grow increasingly frustrated with a small number of students disrupting the learning opportunities and safety of my own kids who DO want to get an education. Yes, public schools accept all students and private schools cherry pick.
Here in Ohio, the teachers in Akron are upset that violent students are being put back in the classroom. That isn’t a solution, either.
Ang: a most excellent comment.
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It works on many levels.
For example, we know how to deal with all sorts of “behavior” and “discipline” problems. So what do the self-styled “education reformers” do? Cut and slash the human and financial resources of public schools to deal with the problem; incentivize fudging numbers of “problems” at a real cost to public school staff, students and parents; and make the public schools look as awful as possible by such tactics as the “mid-year” dump of the ‘test suppressors/problem students’ from charters into public schools [remember too the financial incentive in getting a full-year’s $tudent $ucce$$ for only having a ‘bad’ student for a month or two].
Also consider: since the charterite/privatizer narrative puts teachers in charge of schools [pity the poor administrators!], all the problems get laid principally at the feet of the teachers who have very little—if any—say or authority, in dealing with such problems. But I can assure you with a 98% “satisfactory” [thank you, Bill Gates] chance of certainty that teachers will be credited for failing to deal adequately with disciplinary problems & for bungling $1 billion worth of iPads.
With a little bit more effort, and lots of [bad] luck, teachers will get 100% of the blame!
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We used to call this “blaming the victim.” But we now live in the cage busting achievement gap crushing innovative 21st century. Education models in education—how quaint! No, now it’s the Potemkin Village Business Plan for $tudent $ucce$$.
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P.S. I owe you a couple down at Pink Slip Bar & Grille. Your comments were so over the top that it even brought Socrates out of his latest funk re the elevation of David Coleman and Eva Moskowitz to full sainthood. He is no devotee of the latest electronic gadgets [he still thinks “carved in stone” is not an indication of rigidity but has lots of positive connotations] but his face lit up when I showed him what you wrote. He’s finally stopped talking about hitting the hemlock again…
Thanks. A dour Greek over 2000 years old can be a real downer if you let him get to you. And opt-out seems to be perking him up too… My fingers are crossed.
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While I disapprove of charter schools because they suck resources away from real public schools, I think that the former Noble teacher has a valid point. Even though public schools have to take all-comers, there is no reason that there should be such an obvious difference in discipline. I have taught in Title I urban middle and high schools for the past 7 years. The behavior that students are allowed to get by with is atrocious. In one school, students threatened to kill a teacher on the last day of school by throwing her out of her classroom’s second story windows. She believed them enough to stay home. At same school, kids were allowed to swear at teachers-using the F word. They were sent back to the room to apologize. At another school, a student brought a knife with a 6-inch blade to school. He often wrote about how he would like to kill people. He had to stay home for 10 days. Why wasn’t he expelled? Why are these students allowed to behave this way? These aren’t isolated incidents. I could write pages. Where is the discipline in our public schools??? The Noble teacher is telling it like it is. The students at charters and publics may differ – but there is no reason that public schools should tolerate this kind of behavior. They didn’t when I was growing up. Why do they now??
I also work in a school like that. The children run the show. They rob other children, threaten teachers and smoke marijuana in the building as if it was legal. There are never consequences, and it is almost impossible for anyone to learn anything. What has happened to discipline in public schools? Why are we expected to tolerate this?
‘I think this depends on what one means by ‘teaching.’ If it connotes lecturing (talking at) kids for 45 minutes, then no, I would think you could not do that at a school where kids have experienced failure to learn for years on end–in part due to Bush/Obama/Duncan and their persistent focus on testing and demoralization of those schools which do not test well (see poverty/test result correlation). I find now that many high school kids have known nothing else their entire school career!
I’m sure it is, but how have you tried to address this? There are many different ways to tackle classroom management, and each class is different. It’s not a one-size-fits-all enterprise. I’ve often found (in my 24 years teaching) that if I have 5 classes which rotate through my room in a day, I may need five different management systems. In another life I even wrote a book about this.
Maybe instead of an idealized ‘great education’ it would be better to try for just a little progress every day–progress, not perfection may carry the day. Back in the day, when I got a fifth year credential, we called this scaffolding, and I still use the concept. By scaffolding each kid each day (or as many as you can), you may find that soon you could do some of the things which you consider essential fro a great education for all.
I hope you find some answers. The school you are at now could be a richly satisfying experience if you persist.
Mark, your advice to try to “tackle classroom management” is insulting to teachers who have no support from their administration and almost no power in their own classrooms. Talk at the kids for 45 minutes? How about 2 minutes to explain an activity or assignment? The behavior that is now being tolerated at my school is atrocious. Kids are fighting, swearing at teachers, bullying quiet kids, stealing from teachers and other kids. The admins keep sending them back to the classroom “so they can learn”. These kids are smart, they know the teachers are powerless. I actually had a student this year tell me “I’m not letting you teach nothing today” as he walked in smiling. The principal told me to call his mom. Mom said “yes that’s what he’s like. I can’t get him to listen either.” Maybe i’ll take your advice and try to “entertain” him and his friends. I’m sure that will help. Oh, and i’m actually supposed to teach him some science.
‘The admins keep sending them back to the classroom “so they can learn”. ‘
I bet the administration told you it was your poor class management, too.
Please understand that I am not saying systemic change (in the administration, parental support, school culture) is not necessary and critical to better schools. It is. But it will be slow, and won’t even really begin until the testing madness is stopped. In the meantime, are teachers just to be passively miserable? I think there are things we can do even now to survive, maybe even sometimes thrive, in classrooms even given the dysfunction that the willful neglect of education by the DOE and corporate ‘reformers’ has engineered. To mix metaphors, it seems to me we must either dig in or bail out.
Here are the setups for my above paragraphs; somehow the post left them out:
Before Para 1: But I could actually teach my children at Noble. I can’t at my current school.
Before Para 2: So much misbehaving, cursing, on phones during class, acting out, disrespect for everyone (teachers, staff and their peers). It is horrible.
Before Para 3: I am at my school because I believe all kids deserve a great education, but this is ridiculous.
Thank you, Mark. Diversified and improved classroom management skills dominated my thinking about this teacher, too, as well as more engaging teaching methods and growing a thicker skin. You can’t take it personally when kids swear and act out –unless you’re responsible for boring them to death.
Nice post, Mark
Charters seem to be able to skirt around Ed Code. Public schools have their hands tied when it comes to discipline. Teachers have been stripped of any leverage. I agree with the remark that we need to change some of the Ed Code.
That is very true. Charter schools still have the same problems as mentioned by the teacher in the article. Discipline is a huge issue in the urban schools with the most difficult students. The charters have been able to just throw kids who present disruptive behavior out of the school. Some of the people on here are blaming the teacher. I disagree. There are serious issues with discipline in these schools due to schools having their hands tied and overcrowded classrooms. A teacher should be able to talk during the class period and not be interrupted by students. Not all lessons are going to be fun for every student at every point of the day. It is unfair to compare the toughest schools to the schools that are able to throw out students,.
Laws have to change, and the discipline has to have some sort of bite. Kids (and parents are not stupid), and they know that essentially they hold the power over the schools. We live in a rural setting, and even here, the kids who cause the problems have more “rights” than the kids who don’t. These kids can disrupt class repeatedly, yet they get to stay. They are holding education hostage. And we are doing no favors for these children by not holding them accountable. No one would deny that these kids are often behavior problems due to lack of parenting. Yet, if we do not teach them self-control, discipline, etc, then how are we truly helping them? We are either helping kids short-term or long-term, and sometimes, the long-term means being harder than we want to be.
I think the same thing. It is unfair to the teacher, the students, and the overall school. It seems as if schools have no power any more.
Don’t forget gangs. That’s a big factor.
I would not be surprised if we researched the source of these laws that they would lead back to the fake Ed reformers. For instance, the Walton family. I think they’ve been at it the longest and the best way to defeat an enemy is to destroy them with horrible legislation.
If you’ve read “The Bully Pulpit” by Doris Kearns Goodwin, that’s what the corporations were doing before President Theodore Roosevelt put a stop to that practice. The largest corporations were behind legislation that allowed them to lock out the independent competitors from competing with them in food, oil, coal and steal production and the little guy who didn’t have the money to buy enough politicians.
I think you’re onto something really big, Lloyd. I’d also suggest looking at who was behind legislation that raised the drop-out age in recent years, including in Illinois, forcing disinterested kids to stay in resource starved schools and disrupt overcrowded classrooms even longer. It just feels like another one of those ingredients of corporate education “reform” that was presented as a way to save kids in poverty but is really aimed at destroying public education.
It doesn’t take much for me to take the leap and imagine how angry kids would be who planned to drop out of school at age 16—for any reason—if they suddenly found they were not allowed to do so.
And how would that anger translate? Into rebellious behavior problems disrupting classrooms and adding to a teacher’s work load because of all the paperwork needed to just throw a kid out of class and send them to see a counselor or administrator.
Every time a teacher has to stop to fill out the paperwork necessary to send a kid out of class that stops the teaching and the learning and often encourages other kids to act out.
Thirty years of teaching in a community mired in poverty and dominated by violent street gangs taught me this.
And I’ve read that some states are making it more difficult to send a disruptive kid out of class let alone suspend a kid from school or seek an expulsion. Laws are becoming more restrictive on everyone: teachers, students and parents causing classrooms to become free-fire anarchy zones something the libertarian Koch brothers must love.
I agree with KrazyTA. What this teacher posted is a reality that many face in hard schools across the country. Comparing it to Charters is like comparing apples to oranges and the system has been rigged to make sure it stays that way. All of that being said, this is an important conversation to continue. We aren’t getting any help from the places we should get it from….fair funding, adequate staffing, administrations that have the best interests of children and staff at heart. In addition, our local and national governments are not addressing the root issues of poverty, discrimination, segregation, lack of adequate employment, housing, health care, etc. etc. etc. So, we should do our best to help and encourage each other and as KrazyTA said, this should be the beginning of this discussion.
I get what she’s saying. Kansas City was my experience with this.
Ang, thank you for talking about interventions such as counseling, etc. Our country needs to help these children when they are young. I taught in 3rd and 4th grade. Some interventions should have been done even sooner. Schools need to begin these as soon as possible. Let’s help our students instead of pushing them through. Then they end up in prisons–private prisons. Since I retired, I am trying to help children through my church. I am saddened by what is happening to our children in our low-income schools. But, I am pleased to see some of these children getting help through church being successful. One family took asylum here and out of five children, three are in college and one is doing very well in high school. I am proud that I had a hand in helping them.
Schools are not designed to manage the extreme social dis-functions that many students bring with them to the classroom. Its more than just a discipline problem and it overwhelms the school culture. It’s deeply unfair to the many students who come to school ready and willing to learn. Charters are appealing to many parents who want a safe haven away from the kids that consistently undermine the learning environment. Charters create this haven not by being better than their public school counter parts, but by establishing a variety of bars that filter out the trouble makers. Any school with self selecting features, such as having to apply, and then being subject to increased accountability for your child’s behavior, will immediately eliminate the most dis-functional families. The best charters have high attrition rates because they have the option to kick out the students who are persistently difficult to manage. If charter schools are better, it’s because they sweep the real challenges back into the public schools. This is hardly a point of pride, and hardly a solution.
Putting aside the truly enormous problems of inadequate and inequitable public school funding – and all its devastating and truly unjust consequences (and which aint going to change in America, EVER, thanks to the federal and state constitutions and the many forces of capitalist evil and a tax structure everyone knows is designed to benefit the rich that run this country); maybe a mix of charter and public schools is the best world possible, and particularly for the poor but motivated parents and their children, who if it were not for charter school options, are stuck in communities and schools like the one described by the lead commentator. It should be pretty clear that Charter schools have evolved into “triage” education – they educate the kids that CAN be, by providing an important alternative that many poor parents believe in, because they have lived through years of dysfunctional comprehensive public schools that take ALL students (which really largely means not “all” but some bottom half of the income distribution). One view is that yes Charters are selective, yes they counsel out the kids who can’t respond to the challenge (or can’t behave as expected, or whatever), and yes this gives them an “unfair” advantage; but that’s not really the question – the question is are there any other really better options for those 3-25% of the kids who do go to charter schools. For the children in charter schools there are enormous palpable differences in how the schools are run, the structured and safety of the learning environment, the cleanliness of the school, the quality of the facilities, etc. Sure a lot of this has to do with the kids they have, and the more committed families they have, and the funds they receive from all kinds of sources (including, sadly, those interested in privatizing and exploiting public school resources for their benefit, but also from wealthy people that want to do good), and the freedom they have from all the public school bureaucracy nonsense (and if you have ever led public schools, charter schools and private school like I have you would understand the entirely different planets these three animals operate in!). It is not really about the test scores or many of the other accountability metrics nonsense (which we all know are mostly meaningless), why low income parent of Harlem, for example, flock to the charter options. In Harlem, it pretty obvious the charters have provided a refuge (and better resourced schools) than the neighboring comprehensive – accept all, deal with all, public schools (and who do not have the resources to even minimally do so – actually NOBODY does or can with current investment in education). Look at Geoffrey’s community based wrap around services, that no public school in the nation can hope to match. Regardless of Eva’s salary and the things she gets away with because of who she is, go into her shcool and look around. Then go to any 5 neighboring comprehensive schools and see what school you would send your kids to: if those were the only options you really had? What other options exist for these children? Walk into Kippstar and PS125 – two schools sharing a building, and the difference is just shocking. You don’t have to look at any scores, attrition or attendance or graduation rates, or college/high school placement records or even bother with a detailed analysis of the curriculum and pedagogy. Just the airconditioners, and the clean and properly painted classrooms, and the orderly hallways, and the eerie silence, and hip decorations on the walls, and seemingly sophisticated teachers (who all appear to come from an ivy league school, and the 7:30 to 5:30 schedule, and the Saturday programs, and the weeklong sleepaway fieldtrips, and the working copier that even has a backup just in case.
Providing “triage” education is the elitists’ latest excuse for privatizing public education. If intervention, supports and more resources are needed, they can be provided within public schools, including in separate rooms and alternative public schools. There is no need to siphon funds to privately managed charter test prep factories that pay outrageously high executive salaries, deny democratic representation, implement military style tactics on children and destroy public education.
I won’t reiterate what others have stated so eloquently, but a few things do stand out to me.
It seems that most of the responders to this article are teachers. They get it, why doesn’t everybody else.
This entire dialogue just brings home the Diane’s thesis. Poverty is what makes the difference between children learning and not.
Add to that, lack of will on the part of the administration of the public schools to discipline,lack of funding or support for teachers, parents and students, large classroom size, buildings in horrible disrepair, lack of funds for textbooks and other material. You get the idea.
As an aside, by the time I left teaching in an inner city school (31 yrs.), the percentage of children who were chronically disruptive was about 40 – 50 percent. What that meant to me was that 50 -60 percent sat and waited for me to teach them, while I dealt with the other children. I was very good at classroom management, so I had less trouble than others, but it was still a huge challenge.
This story is from a very old script that has long been used not only by the charter school propagandists, but also by teacher bashers from the “private sector” and pundits.
I first heard these talking points at a Noble dog and pony show seven years ago, when Arne Duncan acquired a north side Chicago Catholic high school for a CICS campus. The general line of attack against the city’s real public schools is always the same kind of salvation narrative. An (always unnamed) “public” schools is out of control, with the teachers “running to their cars” as soon as the work day is over, and the kids idling around doing nothing, etc., etc., etc. etc blah blah blah…
At one press conference, the charter teacher talked about how when he was a public school teacher this stuff had been happening (the race to the parking lot; the classes doing nothing, etc.). I asked the guy what real public school he had worked at. I had to press him, but he finally admitted that he — HIMSELF– had never actually worked at a public schools, but that he had HEARD all these FACTS about the public schools.
He didn’t blink an eye after that lie, and Arne Duncan went on to praise CICS and launch the newest private public school in Chicago. That particular one (CICS “Northtown” campus) even kept the Catholic girls who had been going to the school — even if they lived in the suburbs. So once their school went “public” (as a charter) they got free tuition to the school, which didn’t even have washrooms for the “boys” (very few) the first year after it opened.
When I repeatedly asked for a tour and more information, they finally simply refused, citing security, student privacy rules, etc. etc. etc. blah blah blah.
We don’t know anything about this teacher’s training or background and many charters in Chicago routinely employ TFA. Certainly, there are issues when administrative support is lacking and laws prevent the implementation of effective discipline policies. However, I would not assume this former charter teacher is highly skilled and experienced or be so quick to dismiss concerns raised about her teaching and classroom management skills.
I’ve taught special ed for 20 years. Most of that time has been as a classroom teacher working with severely emotionally disturbed kids. Inner city, NYC.
This letter is a perfect example of why you can’t compare charter schools with public schools.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if some of the kids who were in that CPS classroom had been displaced by one of the Noble Charters?
It was bad before…but the closing of neighborhood schools, imposition of unreasonable expectations, and withdrawal of funds has made the public schools even worse. The deck has been stacked against us in a very, very, very big way.
To G Connors: it’s not about discipline with many of these kids. They could care less. We have always had Crisis Resolution Rooms for when the going gets very tough. And believe me: it does get very tough. But the teachers are trained to use that as a last alternative. What works best are proactive strategies. Reward systems. Contracting. Consistent rewards and punishments. Minimal raising of the voice. Private discussions (the kids either resent/hate you or laugh at you when you berate them in public). Even if the student is “terrible”, there has to be a degree of respect given them in order to create some kind of bond that will work.
Lots of other tools at your disposal when it comes to kids who have seen their friends die by gunfire or knife. Whose lives are so, so different from what so many of us would understand.
What bothers me about this letter is that it’s a perfect example of what someone in the propaganda machine would use to promote their cause for dismantling public education. The para professional who curses at the kids? Sure…I’ve seen some. Teachers, as well. Very few, though. And they were fired. Yes: you can fire teachers. Even tenured ones. You really have to have your ducks in a row…but it can be done. In my 20 years of teaching, I’ve seen very few teachers who are allowed to do this, though. Completely unacceptable and severely dealt with when it’s uncovered.
My classes were always noted for their discipline. This was mainly due to the positive behavior plans that I consistently employed from day one of the school year until closing day. And the support I got from the administration. Things got much harder on us, however, when NCLB and RTTT came into full swing. Try teaching a 5th grader who’s reading at 1st grade level, using a 5th grade curriculum. It just doesn’t work. Remedial reading programs and testing at the individual grade level help to develop and maintain self respect and a love of learning in most students. Going the opposite way just creates frustration and anger.
“What bothers me about this letter is that it’s a perfect example of what someone in the propaganda machine would use to promote their cause for dismantling public education.”
This.
As much as we would like to believe it, charter schools did not arise out of mercenary interests. Needs were seen that might be better addressed outside the system. Has that been taken advantage of? No question! The concept has been warped almost beyond recognition. Perhaps this teacher is a mole or troll or whatever epithet we choose to comfort ourselves with. That does not change the fact that there are real problems in many inner city schools. I dare anyone to say that inner city teachers, especially high school (and middle school) never fear for their safety or the safety of their students because of the out of control behavior of some students. I dare anyone to say that classes are all islands of peace and tranquility where everyone has the opportunity to learn without disruption. I dare anyone to claim that they don’t have students (raised in the “hood”) who have grown up believing that their worth was judged through their ability to flatten someone else. In today’s climate, the neoliberal agenda makes it acceptable to throw out the hard to educate student as defective product. Too many charters have taken advantage of this philosophy. Too many people in authority have bought into it and are systematically starving public schools and beating down teachers (and students). Right now we are focused on fighting the neoliberal juggernaut, and that’s okay. A lot of problems would at least diminish if people could, first of all, find jobs and, second of all, make a living wage, but we will have to address them at some point not only as educators but as community members as well.
Wait … The status quo Duncan-Gates Ed-Reforms aren’t working?
Probably because the real needs of students are not being addressed.
All sorts of people have over regulated public schools to the point of being ridiculous. The only way around it is to start a new school without all the regulations heaped on them. BINGO, CHARTERS. The students have a right to a free and appropriate education. No one said you had to take it. I think that’s the premise of Charters.
And in Chicago, you can even get a school named after you!
To all of us public school teachers of title one students.
Let’s be honest, until we figure out the discipline problem, parents have legitimate complaints. And they will move their kids to charter schools, which we all know make ridiculous promises.
Lets press our legislators to amend the laws on discipline. I’m not for physical punishment, but we need to somehow remove disruptive students from the classrooms.
Keeping one disruptive child in a classroom destroys the learning environment for twenty others. Yes, I’ll say it. Sacrifice that child’s education.
I understand that many children have issues. I am not unsympathetic. But we have neither the time, the funding, or the training to deal with these issues.
Maybe once the word gets around that if your child does not behave in school, s/he is out, parents will get the hint.
Those were (used to be “are”) the kids who were sent to me as a special educator dealing with children with emotional difficulties. Nowadays the general ed teachers are told not to refer them to special ed. And not to separate them from the regular classrooms in their general ed schools, either. Too “exclusionary”. “Will create a stigma”.
I’m completely in agreement with you: one or more will destroy the ability to teach an entire class of otherwise interested students. And that’s exactly what’s happening now because of these policies against exclusion.
But what happens to the kids who you just “throw out”? Is that why we have the largest prison system in the world? A prison system that’s becoming more and more privatized (aka: this is a money making institution). Because it’s pretty much a guarantee that’s where a lot of the “castoffs” will be going if they’re just thrown out on the streets. There won’t be any message loud enough to make their parents stop that behavior.
People don’t want to pay taxes because they don’t see the connect between where their money’s going and how it relates to their specific needs. From the lower wage earners to the top .001 percent. But this is a societal issue. You want to remove the seriously disruptive kids from the regular classroom? Absolutely. But what goes around comes around. It’ll come back to bite you if you don’t at least try to find a more appropriate setting that might serve their needs better.
“Put in extra hours (nope).”
This sounds like a rephormer talking point. Not being a teacher I have to ask, is there any truth to the idea that teachers aren’t allowed to put in extra hours? Because of union rules maybe? What I read on this blog and what I hear from the teachers I know is that teachers put in dozens of hours per week above and beyond classroom time. That one sentence alone makes me question this commenter’s credibility.
It’s true. Teachers still put in extra hours, just at home.
As a teacher of 24 years who has always tutored kids in small groups after school because I know there is no support in their dysfunctional homes, and as a member of a teacher’s association, no, there is no rule prohibiting voluntarily working extra hours. At my current school, a very poor title 1 school, myself and the special education staff work an extra hour and a half each day with students that either are in special education or who are so far behind they have difficulty functioning in the classroom. We remediate, and we often volunteer a part of our summers as well, without pay. I do not mind so long as I am paid enough to pay my bills, I will continue to give of myself. I will also admit that as I take classes, I have the opportunity to try out new ideas without administration breathing down my neck. My time is my own and I give it where I choose.
“Put in extra hours (nope).”
Are the extra hours compensated? NOPE!
The business philosophy these days definitely includes that it’s okay to not pay people for their time and effort-see unpaid “internships”. Oh we should be so god-awful thankful to be able to work for nothing. And that has infiltrated to almost every sector that doesn’t have the benefit of a union to back up the individual.
Every hour I’ve worked beyond my contracted time is taking skin off my back. Sorry, but pay me for it, it is not your pleasure to expect me to do with my time what will be to your advantage, “some men rob you with a six gun and others rob you with a pen”.
Almost every year at my summative (originally typed dummative which is probably more accurate) evaluation for the last eight years (since I have made a commitment to myself to not work for free anymore unless I choose to do so) I’ve been told I should be “more involved”. Well, hell, I never get picked for the committees for which I apply (they know better, they don’t want to hear from me) so I still apply so that I can respond to the administrator that I’ve tried.
But I’ve worked those 70-80 hour weeks for years in the business sector and one of the advantages of being a teacher is that I am only contracted for 185 days, 7:15-3:15 with all of 21 minutes for lunch, the rest are mine and I won’t be shamed/cajoled into giving anymore time than I am contracted for other than the hours I choose to such as watching sports or plays or band, etc. . . .
No, and I’m not a “BAD” teacher because if that either. At this stage of my life, I want my time cause I don’t have as much time to look forward to as I did 20-30 years ago. I don’t need to give it away for free.
If that’s a “bad” attitude so be it and let the negative comments fly!
I understand. If someone else doesn’t, too bad.
During my last three years, I averaged 60 hours a week as a self contained, non-categorical high school special education teacher. IEPs typically added ten hours minimum per report on top of that. So I figured out how many hours I worked not counting the hours spent during the summer or the hours of in school vacation breaks. I worked 270 eight hour days. If you take the 104 weekend days out of a year, someone with no vacation with comparable salary works 256 eight hour days. So much for our summer break. I don’t recount this as any badge of honor. There are plenty of teachers who spend as many hours working. There are plenty of other professionals who work longer hours. I wonder how many are doing it for $40,000/year?
I’m hoping against hope that the number of kids thrown out of schools will drop as parents get the message. And what percentage of kids with severe discipline issues are we saving anyway? At some point society has to protect itself.
I thought I read somewhere that 60% of our prison population is in for drug offenses. We need to change that.
Yes, I am very curious as to why this teacher left the charter school. However, she brings up something that is very important to discuss–the culture of some of our public schools.
I’m guessing that money was an incentive to leave Noble. Most of Noble charter teachers are non-union TFAers and they can earn more in public schools.
As for the culture, yes, it may be quite a shock for someone who is used to working in a massively controlling environment, as Noble charters are described here (see comments further down, too): http://atthechalkface.com/2013/09/11/teach-for-america-and-noble-st-charter-schools-a-dangerous-combination/
It seems to me that the most important question is if closing Noble charter schools and sending those students back to the CPS schools described here would result in a better education for all. The obvious answer appears to be no, that in many cases the students would go from an environment where learning is possible to one where learning is not possible.
If you were not so gung ho about privatization and “the whole charter mission,” as former TFAer Gary Rubenstein described, where “the success of the individual, or the individual school, takes precedence over the success of others and of the community,” maybe you could entertain other possibilities. Low income students might actually be able to find success within the public school system, if instead of starving schools, resources were poured into neighborhood schools, including to support interventions for the kinds of kids that Noble charters routinely counsel out and expel.
I am not so much an advocate of “privatization” as I am an advocate of student choice. It respects the individuality of the student and allows schools to differentiate themselves from other schools in ways that are not possible with the traditional zoned system.
You are right though that I am uncomfortable with the idea of sacrificing the education of some students in order to increase the success of the group.
Support for charters IS support for privatization. Many options can be provided within the school system and no one’s education need be “sacrificed” when public schools are properly resourced and funded equitably.
Not going to have this conversation with you again. Bye
CT,
I suppose the problem is that I pay attention to the reasons people give for opposing charter schools and realize that those reasons often apply equally to all choice schools no matter how they are labeled.
I should add that it seems pretty obvious that closing the Noble network of charters and sending those students to the schools described by the original poster and others on this thread would harm those students education, betraying the goal of a better education for all.
No, you hear only what you want to hear and that’s why many people have given up on having an intelligent conversation with you.
What do you think I am not hearing?
I see schools criticized for using lotteries to admit students. I see schools criticized for not admitting students at any time of the year. I see schools criticized for admitting students from multiple neighborhoods and thus destroying neighborhood cohesion. I see schools criticized for having a different population mix than the other schools around it. I see schools criticized for cherry picking students.
Are these criticisms of magnet schools or charter schools? I think they are criticisms of both, and do not see how there can be a reasonable argument to the contrary.
The original poster was most likely from TFA. Prime example of important information you refused to hear.
I don’t guess about posters background. I try to concentration on the points made in the post. So if you are a cussing me of not using ad homonym arguments, I take that as a compliment.
THE POINT IS THAT PRIVATIZING PUBLIC SCHOOLS IS DESTROYING PUBLIC EDUCATION. THERE ARE CANDIDE POLITICIANS TODAY WILLING TO ADMIT THAT ABOLISHING PUBLIC EDUCATION IS PRECISELY THEIR AIM, TOO.
GO TO CHILE IF YOU LOVE PRIVATIZED EDUCATION SO MUCH.
No need to go to Chile to find private education. Post secondary education is filled with private schools (Dr. Ravitch teaches at the very largest one). There are also many fine private primary and secondary schools in this country as well as many fine public schools of all sorts.
Yea, you’re right, there are great public and private colleges. Now for the price tag and of course, the choice if you can afford the private option without a full-ride scholarship.
“According to a 2011 College Board report, students at four-year private colleges do indeed have the most expensive total cost of attendance: Factoring in tuition, fees, and room and board, the “sticker price” for the 2011-2012 school year at the average private institution was $38,589, while in-state students at public four-year institutions paid just over $17,000.”
http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-scholarship-coach/2011/10/27/uncover-the-real-costs-of-public-and-private-colleges
The price tag for putting our daughter through Stanford to her first degree broke the quarter million mark. Good thing my wife’s books have been translated into more than thirty languages. Without that, daughter would have started in a 2-year community college and finished in a four year state college like I did.
How many kids who live in poverty can afford the luxury of that choice between public and private?
Thank God for community colleges: On average, how much does it costs to attend community college in California? The average annual in-state community college tuition in California is $1,129 in 2013.
http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/california/community-colleges/
Often, choice depends on how much money you have. The private school Bill Gates children attend costs $28,000 vs. Washington State spending less than 10,000 for each student attending public schools.
And then of course there’s UTAH, where they spend about $6,000 per student.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html
Then here’s a lit from Business Insider.com for the 50 Most Expensive Private High Schools in America. The most expensive one costs more than $43,000. The cheapest one was $35,775.
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-expensive-private-schools-2012-9
Coincidentally, I am a former employee of the Chicago neighborhood high school from exactly the neighborhood where Noble draws a large amount of their students. Since their inception, I watched our enrollment drop from approximately 2200 students to 800 today, as the Noble network built more schools surrounding ours and their enrollment grew. I feel compelled to respond to this teacher’s message, just so she knows that I don’t have an “idealized memory of school”.
As she states in her above message, we at our local neighborhood high school were also there because we thought all kids deserved a great education. Even the kids who swore, cursed, flashed gang signs, and pulled out their phones while in class. Yes, ALL of them. Yes, the children have issues, multiple serious issues, but, you see, the difference is we actually had to deal with them in a real life way that did not involve fining children of poverty or their parents. We had to counsel them. We had to work with their parents. Yes, it was difficult. But there were certainly teachers, in fact most of them, who were able to control their classrooms without sucking money from people who hardly have anything. The punishment, does not seem to fit the crime here.
In my position, I had the unique opportunity to work with students enrolling and transferring into our school. These included many students who transferred back to our school from Noble. You would think these would be students with exceptionally poor behaviors and that was why they were leaving Noble. However, they weren’t. These were good kids, some of them even turned out to be some of our best kids. Some of them arrived with computer printouts of infractions so ridiculous I actually passed it around to show others. Sitting at a desk with their head on their hands. Really? These kids were totally fed up with these nonsensical infractions and just wanted to be kids. Teenagers are teenagers, they are going to do some annoying things.
It quickly became apparent that Noble was only a place for students who were cooperative and parents who were involved in their students education. And that is how they cherry picked their students. Not to mention the essay they were required to write with their application.
When you suck every child with parental support or academic success out of a neighborhood school through the charter school or selective enrollment process, what are you left with in the neighborhood school? She should ask herself that question. To have a well rounded neighborhood school that can provide rich programming and challenging academics, students and parents need to consider the fallout on the neighborhood school. Maybe that’s why she finds herself in the position she is in today.