As readers of this blog know, Michelle Rhee promised to debate me at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania last spring.
The date was set, at her request, on February 6.
Then she demanded a second, and I agreed. (Her second was going to be Rod Paige.)
Then she demanded a third, and I agreed.
Then she said she couldn’t find a third, and she canceled.
Now I learn she is speaking to the Chamber of Commerce in Minneapolis on February 6, where she will bring the message that the way to have great schools is to fire teachers and use test scores as the absolute judge of students, teachers, principals, and schools.
She is speaking during the day so it is not likely that there will be teachers or students present.
I wish she would debate me. I would even accept a fourth or a fifth. We could each bring a team and mud-wrestle.
But no basketball. She would bring you-know-who, and I am not that tall.
Come on, Michelle. Just do it.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I wish she would debate you too! Best to keep trying?…
People like Michelle Rhee like to be surrounded by people who stroke their egos. She doesn’t want to debate you because she knows she can’t prove what she says and it contains nothing of substance.
Ha! Great post, Doctor! She doesn’t want to debate you because she doesn’t have the research knowledge and experience you do. And of course, she is also trying to support/defend a deeply, even morally corrupt agenda. Kudos to you.
I am afraid you are doomed to disappointment. The woman has no substance; she is only a mantra, and she knows it.
“But no basketball. She would bring you-know-who, and I am not that tall.”
HA! Thanks for the laugh!
“. . . mud wrestle. . . ” He, he, he, he, he!
Tahg team mud wrahssling, thas gouuuuod!!
This should be a bigger story in the mainstream news.
Agreed! News outlets who have given Rhee a platform to promote her reform agenda should now report on the fact that Rhee doesn’t want to defend her agenda in a debate.
I’m going to write to a few journalists and editorial boards to suggest just that.
You have the facts on your side. She has corporate cheerleaders and a checkbook, but only invented “facts”.
Your scholarly dedication to the facts will completely overshadow her phony message, and she knows it.
Rhee has been publicly ‘outed’ suffering from the Imposter Syndrome.
She knows that you know, and we know because you know, and that she knows that we all always knew it!
She surrounds herself only with uninformed, vulnerable and needy people who don’t know what we know.
She probably assumed that you would not be that persistent. Now you can have fun and continue to offer her new dates. Interesting to see how often she reschedules…34, 51, 78, 149 times? Rhee should be concerned!
I’ll stay tuned.
Anyone in the Twin Cities planning to go and stand outside the event with signs that say “Michelle Ree — aren’t you supposed to be debating Diane Ravitch today?”
Would LOVE to see that!
I still dream of the day of Diane Ravitch, Mercedes Schneider, Leonie Haimson, and Carol Burris debating with Arne Duncan, Eli Broad, Michelle Rhee, and Michael Bloomberg.
A dream debate at another time, another place, and another plane of existence . . . .
What a line up!
“I long for a fight with you, like a thirsty man longs for a drink.”
– Archilochus
With a lineup like that I would travel to ends of the Earth to hear them beat the living daylight out of them. Knowledge and experience from Team True Educators scare the deformers too much.
Michelle Rhee is a pure coward because she will not even find some like minded partners to debate with Diane and others.
What a lily livered villain Rhee is . . . . .
Michelle Rhee would be afraid to debate Diane Ravitch even if the rules allowed her to tape Diane’s mouth shut. And you can take that to the bank.
Chamber of Commerce was CHARTERED as was the UN. Backing Rhee makes sense when that is understood. The truth has no agenda but Rhee and Co DO.
Give a factual presentation, Diane. The audience that needs to hear it, WILL.
At first I thought you-know-who was Arne Duncan, but it could also be Kevin Johnson, Rhee’s husband, a former NBA player and charter school founder.
Rhee could also recruit Jalen Rose (NBA star turned charter school operator), or any one of a number of pro athletes turned charter school founders.
Perhaps public school advocates should work to recruit more celebrity and pro athlete allies. It would be good for publicity, and also good for any public school vs. school privatization athletic contests.
Somebody should run with that idea!
Notice of the event in Minnesota was not public until very recently. The teacher’s union, Board of Teaching, and Department of Education were not included in the invitation to the summit to my knowledge but are aware of it. I too would prefer the open debate of the facts to the indoctrination of our Minnesota business leaders. Unfortunately, when not invited to the table for the conversation, any response is labeled defensive. The title of the summit is Educating Minnesota: Why We Can’t Keep Failing Our Kids. Minnesota NAEP scores, especially for 4th grade indicate our students are highly successful and that we are actually reducing the achievement gap. The Minnesota Measures (separate indicators) indicate that most districts are on target to reduce the achievement gap. Unfortunately, facts aren’t important in the discussion of successfully educating children. Keep asking for the debate.
Diane, I guess she is afraid of who she is up against. : )
Diane, maybe you should present yourself in the audience of The Chamber of Commerce “event” and have at least a few questions thrown her way that she DESERVES to be forced to answer! Is this in the realm of possibility?
I’ll contribute whatever I can afford towards Diane’s airfare to be there. . . . .
It is time for good old fashioned ambush journalism.
Dr. Ravitch, disguise yourself as a big money donor and jump onto the stage and challenge Rhee to a debate!
As much as we all know that Diane would steamroll Michelle Rhee and Company in an educational debate, I think it’s important to remember that Politics will always trump Pedagogy. Those of us who value public education will need to keep up the full court press politically…locally, statewide, regionally, and nationally After all, we are talking $$$$. Big $$$$$. The political streetwalkers are working for the plutocratic pimps. When their terms are up, the pols need a place to land.
“The political streetwalkers are working for the plutocratic pimps. ”
TAGO!
Ah, Michelle brings the Erase to the Top tour to Minneapolis, where she will explain how to be a great Schools Chancellor: simply channel Lewis Carrol’s Red Queen. Stomp about yelling, “Off with their heads!” and practice believing six impossible things every morning before breakfast.
Rhee needed a second? What was she thinking this was, a duel?
Diane, clearly, she had another engagement in the alternate rheeality universe that she inhabits where learning is about mastering the bullet list of standards and teaching is all about having a bee-eater attitude and doling out punishment and reward.
cx: Lewis Carroll, of course
MR is wasting your time and energy. She ain’t gonna show. Not now. Not ever. She’s not that stupid. She is merely an arrogant dissembler, akin to a clever, though ultimately ignorant want-to-be ‘expert’.
She would bring you-know-who, and I am not that tall.
LOL!!!
I look forward to the day when anyone and everyone will say, “Michelle Who?”
I did not favor a Rhee-Ravitch match up. That’s like putting Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church up against, say, Steven Weinberg for a discussion of particle physics. Rheely, one just shouldn’t take Ms. Rhee at all seriously. The woman is a caricature.
Perhaps several teachers could each take a personal day & go there to picket / protest outside! Retired teachers, retired adminstrators & anyone else who believes in public education could join them. And hopefully this could get in the news to begin the discussion with everyday citizens of what a charlatan Rhee really is!!!!!
Rod seems to be a great choice for Michelle’s Erase to the Top Tour, though:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/05/romney-education-adviser-rod-paige-dropout-scandal
Not related to this post, but http://nytechprepper.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/the-500-pound-gorilla/
Alfie Kohn rocks.
She doesn’t want to debate…she wants to orate.
well said
And she wants to dictate –which she probably thinks she accomplished by repeatedly upping the ante and then bowing out. In reality, what she did was capitulate, since she folded because could not meet even her own terms.
Does orate relate to fellate??
I saw a clip of Dr. Ravitch, Rhee, and a few others – it was at some swanky club. Dr. Ravitch did a great job during that particular discussion.
well…I’ll debate you 🙂
my assertions or views:
1.) every teacher should be treated exactly the same
2.) it’s normal to fire people
3.) shouldn’t be too hard to fire a teacher
4.) nothing wrong with using SAT/etc as a benchmark
if no teachers are getting fired, that’s more likely an indication that it’s too difficult to fire a teacher than that all the teachers are great teachers.
Teachers are getting fired. The term used in teaching is that they are not “reinstated” or “not invited back” for the next school year. SAT is not used as a benchmark. Poorly designed tests created by non-educators are.
Yes, what Joel says is so true and yet it’s rarely acknowledged. Teachers have contracts so they are rarely “fired.” Instead they are told at the end of the year (if they are probationary) that “We do not have a position for you next year.” This is listed as a “non-renewal” in the Board book. Veteran teachers who are dismissed are usually asked to retire or resign. They are listed as “retirements” or “resignations.” If a veteran teacher refuses to resign, the district might say, “We are starting proceedings to dismiss you.” Most teachers will resign once this happens, but if they don’t, they might be “fired.” This seldom occurs.
The only teachers who are “fired” are usually those caught doing something illegal (abusing a child, cheating on state tests, drinking or using drugs). Also, a teacher convicted of a felony off the job would be fired too, but few teachers are criminals.
In order to find out how many teachers are actually dismissed, a person would have to look at the Board book and try to find out how many of the resignations, non-renewals and retirements were really dismissals. From my experience I would say about 5% of these people are really “fired.”
The last district for which I worked used to turn over probationary teachers 3-4 years in before tenure. They usually give you the option of resigning, but then you are not eligible for unemployment insurance.
I don’t believe that any teacher can be subject to not being re-instated, that’s just not believable.
You write that the SAT’s aren’t used as a benchmark, well, why not?
Why not use something **like** the SAT’s as a benchmark. Nationally administered.
“I don’t believe that any teacher can be subject to not being re-instated, that’s just not believable.”
It happens all the time. Most teachers are not going to announce it because it will affect future employment. You never speak poorly of a former employer whether they shafted you or not. If you want any chance of future employment as a teacher, you learn that you are to keep your mouth shut. If you are targeted and have cause to fight, it is still more often than not best to settle and resign.
Thufir, high-school grades are better predictors of college success than are SAT scores.
Thufir Hawat: Why not use something **like** the SAT’s as a benchmark. Nationally administered.
The NAEP test?
No, it’s because the vast majority of teachers targeted take resignations in lieu of dismissals. Districts don’t call those “firings,” or “dismissals,” even though these teachers don’t have jobs anymore. They simply are called “dismissed” if they go through the phony administrative process and lose, which almost all of them do. School districts have MANY options at their disposal to get rid of teachers they don’t like. Most of the teachers have done nothing wrong to warrant being kicked to the curb.
http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20140130/OPINION02/301300033/Here-s-what-community-needs-to-know-about-recent-teacher-resignations
Does this make you feel better? Teachers were fired. They were shafted but at least someone got fired.
So tell us, Thufir, what grades do you teach? How long have you worked in a public school, and do you teach low income students?
Welcome to the blog.
Teachers do get fired. 3 in my own school in recent memory. Tenure only provides teachers the right to due process before they are let go for poor performance. And, how do you judge me on my students’ performance? I’m a special education teacher. I teach students with autism, with mental illness like schizophrenia, with dyslexia, with ADHD. I work just as hard as the AP Stats teacher down the hall. Guess what? A student getting electric shock treatments three times a week doesn’t have very good ACT/SAT scores. Neither does a student with autism with limited language skills. Neither does a child who reads letters upside down and backwards. Neither does a chronically truant child. Or one who comes lives in a home with drug addicted parents. Or who has post traumatic stress due to sexual abuse or parents who fight day and night. All of these things affect test scores, and all are beyond teachers’ control.
Teachers are like any other employees. They can be micro-managed, demeaned, bullied, harassed, isolated, and otherwise made to feel miserable and helpless. Once you’ve been subjected to that type of an organized campaign, it’s very difficult to be rehired. From your post I imagine that you have never had such an experience. Do you think that a teacher’s (or any worker’s) worth can be measured solely on a laundry list of objectives most of which are very subjective? Have you ever taught? Where? For how long? What ages were your pupils? What subjects did you teach? These criteria would really affect your point of view on this subject.
1. Are you treated exactly the same as your colleagues at you place of employment?
2. Yes, when they do not perform up to expectations. But not just because people need to be fired.
3. It shouldn’t be too hard to fire any employee if there is just cause.
4. What about teachers whose students don’t take SATs or other standardized tests? I.e: music and art teachers? School librarians? Teachers of vocational subjects? Teachers of profoundly disabled special education students? There are more of those teachers than there are teachers whose performance would be measured by their students’ SAT results.
BTW, as an administrator, those teachers whose employment I have terminated were generally just not the right match for the particular position. Most of them recognized that fact, chose to resign rather than be terminated, and roughly half if them found another teaching position that was a much better fit for their skill set.
I think the issue is that we have always needed teachers. Children show up for school, and there need to be teachers to teach them. So your assumption is not accurate. If there is not a reason to fire them, and they are needed, they are not dismissed.
Go hit the books, son. You’ve got a lot of reading to catch up on if you want to keep up – we have pretty well-read trolls around here.
I too am disappointed… I was looking forward to observing your amazing skills of logic and debate… always a privilege.
Michelle Rhee is the lowest form of sludge on this planet. She claims what she is doing is all about bettering education. However, all she really cares about is making big bucks along with her corporate ed-deforming goons. Heck, I’ll debate her for free if given a chance. After 20 years in the classroom I would destroy her in a real debate about schooling in America. We all know that she will never go face to face with folks who are actually in the trenches. Michelle, if you or one of your minions is reading this, please be advised, your henchmen will not win the war that you started with pubic school teachers, parents, and children. We are in it for the long haul and we will still be here when you loose and move on to the next big money maker. Start packing your bags.
Rhee’s nothing more than a chicken! Here she is actually saying it.
Rhee is a big chicken, out for herself and out to make a
BUCK-BUCK-BUCK-BUCK . . . . . . .
It’s good to know that there is a natural justice in the world and that is what Rhee is experiencing at this time.
We should start flash mob request- you set the place and then we send requests to Michelle to attend. She doesn’t seem like the type to turn down a dare.
She’s chicken.
If businesses think evaluations baed on test scores are such a good idea, why aren’t businesses basing their own staff evaluations on paper and pencil tests? Might it be because there’s too much that paper and pencil tests miss?
And because they need staff members?
I predict a teacher shortage in the future if the holy grail continues to be the perfect way to get rid of teachers.
Sometimes you keep workers because you need them to work, even if they did not go to an Ivy League school.
And you don’t get rid of them until the pain having them outweighs the pain of getting rid of them. If teachers are badly needed in a building, then the pain of NOT having them outweighs the aim of getting rid of them. It’s a supply demand thing.
In middle school I remember being able to tell which teachers had had richer educations and life experiences that were reflected in their teaching. But I also knew that there were 800 or 900 students in the building to be taught and that organization and thorough accountability on the part of the more text-book reliant teachers was OK. They helped keep us safe (we even had a school fire that year), they taught us about elections (we had a mock election and made election scrap books), they oversaw us at lunch and assemblies, getting out to the bus and at school dances. They administered clubs and sports for us.
The notion that every single teacher is going to be an academic pillar of depth who sets the world on fire is not realistic in terms of staffing for the entire population of any county. Teachers have other responsibilities. We call carpool, we call buses, we respond to nose bleeds and upset children. We remember birthdays and we know what else our students do outside of school. We stand outside when it’s 14 degrees to help kids get out of their cars and off the bus in the morning. We oversee fire drills, tornadoes drills and, anymore, lock down drills. We assure students and parents their children are safe and we host a prepared environment for teaching. We acquire extra resources to use (on our own time) to help students understand.
We cannot be self-aggrandizing prima donnas. There is not time for that. There is a balance to the academic glory professed and the pragmatic aspects to the school day. And there is no reason to need to apologize for that or look at is as an excuse for not being a Harvard grad who is stopping by the woods on a snowy evening.
Good luck to those who do not understand all of these other aspects of being a teacher or running a school.
Being cavier does not usually bring about the results one blindly thinks it might.
Being realistic does.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Cavalier, rather.
Go read the Nanny Diaries, reformers.
“. . . who is stopping by the woods on a snowy evening.”
One need not be a (poison) Ivy grad to enjoy a walk in the woods on a snowy evening.
Caviar works just as well!
If only someone can get into that Chamber speech, yell chicken and ask why she really did not want to debate you. These days, she only goes before friendly crowds because she cannot handle the tough questions. I guess it is hard to defind something that is undefendable.
I, for one, will contact a couple of folks I know that work downtown Minneapolis.
bring a couple of cases of duct tape and ask her if she wants help “managing” the audience.
We should start a campaign through which we send her erasers. By the thousands. And we don’t stop until she agrees to debate. You know, if one person, just one person does it she may think he’s really ineffective and she’ll ignore him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, she may think they’re both developing and she won’t listen to either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people sending erasers, Michelle may think it’s an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day sending Michelle Rhee erasers and demanding a debate. And friends she may thinks it’s a movement. And that what it will be, the Michelle Rhee-Behind -the-Curtain-Erasing DC Miracle movement. And if she doesn’t debate, the press will get tipped off as to why Michelle Rhee is receiving hundreds of thousands of erasers. And finally Michelle and her Rheeality Distortion Field crawl back into the rabbit hole from which she came.
You can send your erasers to:
Michelle Rhee
Student’s First
825 K Street, 2nd floor
Sacramento, CA 95814
Sounds like a good BAT action.
GO FOR IT!
I’m sending mine today
37,000 erasers!
We could also send her a chicken that craps out erasers instead of jelly beans.
Rheeject
Her choice to speak to the chamber of commerce well explains that she is more interested in selling her ideas of business management of education rather than providing better quality of education. No wonder she wants to escape hardballs. Perhaps someone might want to suggest her to change the name of her organization to Business First!
Yes. Rhee knows more about how to BS people than her wisdom in best practice in education. She could probably sell lots of duck tape I’m sure.
A late night duct tape infomercial babe, eh!!
Michelle Rhee knows that you would win the debate!
Reblogged this on 21st Century Theater.
Michelle Rhee won’t engage in a civil and public discussion with Diane Ravitch. David Coleman won’t engage in a civil and public discussion with Diane Ravitch.
Remember, these are exemplars of the no excuses, cage busting achievement gap crushing leaders of the “new civil rights movement” of our time who are allegedly risking all for the sake of “our most precious assets” [google phrase and Michelle Rhee].
Let’s get real.
Soon we will celebrate a 50 year anniversary. James Chaney. Andrew Goodman. Michael Schwerner. Mississippi Freedom Summer 1964. Murdered for their participation in the real civil rights movement. Three people well worth keeping in our thoughts.
The courage of those three young men stands in total contrast to the screaming cowardice of the above mentioned “education reformers” and their peers who stand firm and tall only in committing a Rhee Flee rather than be on the same stage as a 75-year-old historian of American education.
A high school classmate [grades ahead of me] went on Mississippi Freedom Summer in 1964. This unassuming small person had more courage in her little finger than all those wealthy edupreneurs, healthy ex-basketball playing educrats running the US Department of Education, and snarling edubullies who demean teachers, students, parents and whole communities.
But there are flashes of courage. Think of Dr. Steve Perry who puts his tweet in the game [hey, if he put skin in he might risk something], expressing his outrage at failing to get all the $tudent $ucce$$ he feels entitled to: “The only way to lose a fight is to stop fighting. All this did was piss me off. It’s so on. Strap up, there will be head injuries.”
Link: http://jonathanpelto.com/2013/11/20/capital-preps-steve-perry-responds-defeat-tweeting-will-head-injuries/
And there’s always the LAUSD Superintendent who showed true grit and determination in disrupting the class of substitute teacher Patrena Shankling and then firing her for doing her job. Courage, ah, thy name is John Deasy!
Link: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/14/local/la-me-0414-banks-20120414
On February 6, 2014, I hope to see a posting on this blog with a title something like this: WAITING FOR MICHELLE RHEE: SHE COULDN’T STAND AND DELIVER.
Oh well, one can only dream…
😎
P.S. For the trolls and shills who haunt this blog, please check the titles of your favorite eduproduct infomercials. And yes, it’s called satire…
😃
No one can call you crazy, Krazy! Extraordinarily well said!
This debate needs to happen…and Thurfir that wasn’t much of a debate, but could you please volunteer to be the third that Rhee needs so we could get this underway? You would be apparently as good as any other she could get. From the looks of the recent questions on your qualifications to which you didn’t respond, it sounds like you just about fit the criteria for the Rheeformer team.
It is disappointing when the opponent doesn’t show up. She knows she can’t walk the talk, period. It’s public humiliation either way.
This sounds just like commissioner john king (capitals omitted on purpose). He ducks and dodges, and sets up public meetings where the public can’t speak. He has meetings about cc$$ and APPR when teachers can’t get there. 2:00 pm is a wonderful time to talk to teachers isn’t it?
“Rhee Runs from Ravitch.” You’ve got to love the alliteration.
Rhee
Oh, Rhee
Oh See
See Rhee
Oh, see Rhee
Run
Oh, see Rhee run
Run, Rhee, run
See
Diane
See Diane
See Diane make Rhee run
Run Rhee, run
Win
Diane wins
LOL
It would almost be worth bringing back the “Look-Say” Method to get this bit a wider circulation!
Could you imagine the illustrations
Diane, if she ever decides to debate you will have 37,000 BATs to support you. That’s better than any too tall former basketball player any day!
I sent about three requests through M.R.’s Students First website asking that she keep her committment to debate you. I never received a response???
I know M. Naison posts/comments here but go over to the Badass Teachers Association and read this thread (along with the comments from teachers today)
Mark Naison
Michelle Rhee gets $35,000 per lecture- the film “Standardized” was made by two Pennsylvania public school teachers with a budget of $2,000. That contrast speaks volumes about the role of Big Money in shaping educational policy in the US, and the genuine grass roots quality of the opposition to those policies.
Your debate’s probably not a paying gig, and she’s getting $35,000 per speaking engagment these days. Plus, after her Ask Michelle Rhee fiasco on Twitter a couple of months ago, she’s scared of getting pummeled by you. As for basketball, I’ll stand in for you against KJ if I have to (I’m still 6-3 and can knock down some Js)!
Why do i keep hearing “Brave Sir Robin” running through my head.
Rhee, the anti-public school pseudo-reformer, it simply too chicken to debate Diane. When she was a guest on Bill Maher’s show several months ago she made a complete fool of herself.
As we say in Texas, she is chicken $h1T.
She won’t debate because she won’t be able to ERASE her MISTAKES.
Mayor Rheebak to $peak at the Chamber of Commerce event also.
The mayor never attended public schools, nor did his children. Never taught a day in his life. Now he’s an expert and he’s going to help “fix” public education.
In a four-book review of books about education published in 2013 entitled “Ravitch, Ripley, Rhee and me I summarized Rhee as follows: “she is an academically brilliant person lacking sufficient personal experience or literate study to lurch into the management position she held in DC, or to write about or proclaim success in her memoir. Her extraordinarily publicized appearance on the national scene was due in large part to coincident thrust by investment and industry moguls aimed at privatizing public schools. Their support money and public attention helped mightily to move her management activities forward for a limited time—which has now passed.
Here is a video of Eva Moskowitz and Mrs Ravitch on a board together. Clearly Eva had a much better handle on the facts and reality of the situation. Mrs Ravitch truly does represent the failing status quo.