One of the arguments advanced to expand charter schools is that they have long waiting lists.
Or so they say.
But no one knows how many are on those lists.
This reporter in Chicago started digging and discovered that the list is not real. The Chicago charters say there are 19,000 kids waiting. It is a marketing tool to get more charters.
But Becky Vivea discovered that if a student applies to four different school, her name appears on the waiting list four times.
Since the lists are never audited, no one knows how many are on it.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
It reminds me of Florida’s embarrassing recall of its teacher evaluations in December 2012 due to duplications in the teacher counts. No one audits this high-stakes information before its release?
One way to check if a charter has a true waiting list is to look through their test scores listed through the dept of ed. In the state of Michigan you can click on the MEAP demographics. Once there you can look at each grade and the numbers tested. If one grade has 82 then the next 75, you know that they are not at maximum enrollment. I looked through some charters and there were only like 25 kids in one grade, 18 in another-obviously no waiting list. My question is how in the world are schools like this allowed to operate? It makes absolutely no sense financially for state tax dollars to be wasted. The biggest problem is when they allowed these charters in areas where there weren’t failing schools. They have drained students from a decent district and just keep wasting more tax dollars. Michigan’s gov. told school to consolidate services, yet allowed charters to spread. It is a joke. Anyway, the waiting list ploy is merely to make the appearance that “everyone wants to go here” -just a sales tactic.
Great Hearts Academies also use the waiting lists and lottery system to keep out the undesirable students–either poor performers or students whose parents are too much trouble.
Agreed. I find it doubtful that there are so many on charter school waiting lists, and certainly there would be none from schools where the children are happily learning in spite of the content testing we have to do. We teachers in public schools are making the differences for our children, and we will continue to do so until the bitter end. In these schools (where I teach 2nd grade) there is also, I a constant and strong parent body of support.
The mythology of the “list” is also enhanced by the “lottery” mentality created by these schools. The entire artificial scarcity idea adds to the “we are so lucky to be selected” attitude. I am sad that my fellow educators helped to augment this deficit attribution theory!
I’ve been saying the same thing about Gary, IN’s charters for 10 years now. If you talk to any of the students families, most of them apply to multiple charters in the city. When they get accepted at one, their names stay on the other lists for years.
Where I have been an advocate for charters is when a distinctive curriculum can be made available for more children as a Montessori or a Waldorf Charter School can do, and as I had a dear friend who taught in one, I can tell you that they did not have a waiting list.
Choice schools are tho only way to make these d
Teaching economist, have you noticed how many people here are opposed to allowing low income people to choose among public schools – but have themselves paid for their children to attend private schools because they are not able to find acceptable public schools?
I believe people make the best choices they can from the available options. Some have more options tha others.
Let me try again. Choice schools are the only way to make these distinctive approaches to education will be available to those without means.
Of course, much of this double counting issue is beside the larger point.
That there are charter waiting lists really provides little justification for charter expansion, especially in the current policy context. I suspect… though it’s an empirical question worthy of further exploration… that if we use NCLB waiver rating schemes and/or other accountability schemes to apply negative labels to district schools and go so far as to shutter large numbers of district schools – essentially removing district school supply from large areas of cities – that of course many of the students/parents will scatter to the nearest options… at least some of which will be already oversubscribed charters.
In other words, policy makers favoring charter expansion can easily create an image of high demand for charters by simultaneously promoting policies that reduce the supply of district schooling.
Is the increased demand for charters (if there is any) really just a function of public policy attempts to both reduce demand for (through negative advertising) and reduce supply of (through forced closures) of district schools?
This appears to be the strategy in the Chicago Public Schools, doesn’t it? Look how high demand is for the charters, but ignore the upcoming closing/consolidation of schools on the one hand and the teacher-bashing/public school bashing on the other that both increase perceived demand/waiting lists?
With apologies to author Mary McCarthy (vis-a-vis her feud with fellow author Lillian Hellman), everything the so-called reformers say is a lie, including the words “and” and “the.”
There’s an open, constructive thought.
Yes, unlike the “constructive” acts of charter entrepreneurs, who use deception and disenfranchisement to divertpublic resources for their own use.
Don’t think for a moment that your disingenuousness is not apparent to the majority of readers on this blog, Joe. Your funding sources and the actions of you and your cohort belie your vapid, “Why can’t we all get along?” misdirections.
After all, it’s hard to get along with people who are trying to destroy your working conditions, due process protections, benefits and professional autonomy.
Trying to gift wrap class warfare in platitudes, red herrings and straw men doesn’t disguise it.
Unlike many people on this board, our 3 children attend urban public schools. We did not feel it necessary or desirable to send children to private schools.
All 5 members of our immediate family have worked for urban public schools. We’ve been and are active supporters, not just in word, but deed, of public schools.
So, let’s see: 19000/4 schools = 4750 on a waiting list. Divide by 10 years = 475 per school on waiting list. The list is created because parents aren’t satisfied with the schools their children are in, and of course, charters will use it as a marketing tool.
However, the point I would like to make is that when someone downplays a fact (it’s okay to make it more accurate) the way you are, you are perceived as a fanatic who only wants to win an argument. And reasonable people tend to stop listening to the good points you might make.
Thank you for raising this critical issue. We have waiting lists that are bigger than number of kids in districts and yet charter advocates are constantly using these mythical lists as reason for charter school expansion — and yet we find schools constantly not at maximum enrollment, suggesting that these lists are indeed fictitious. Additionally it appears based on local charters that names are NEVER removed from a list even when the child enrolls in the school they are wait listed on, or as you point out another school. And yet because of confidentiality no one can check these claims? Myth bordering on criminal.
A job posting for a headmaster position at Teleos Prep, part of the Great Hearts Academies, Phoenix, AZ, states in the job description that the headmaster will be required to, “Grow school to capacity and ensure a waiting list at every grade.”
That school in particular is not very popular due to the location. My daughter just graduated from Veritas and yes…there is a huge difference between them and public schools. Go to the book list and compare that to what they read in the public school. College counseling? That starts freshman year….not junior or senior year. Here in AZ these Charter schools do amazing because the public schools are lacking. Do the research. Basis is also another amazing Charter.
Our school district has started many public charter schools. It’s a natural reaction to our state laws as there is start-up money available. But they advertise and recruit, and when people agree to attend the charter schools they tout the demand for their schools.
Just remember that charter schools have gone to federal court and to the NLRB to argue that they are NOT public schools. They are not covered by state labor laws and students should be aware that these schools do not have the same protections for student rights as real public schools.
As noted in an earlier post, the NLRB concluded that charters ARE public schools. It concluded that charters are covered by the federal NLRB provisions.
dianerav: just so. Whether charter schools have prevailed in court or not, at least some have tried to rig the system to favor themselves and disfavor others.
Remember the Parent Trigger law here in California. Strangely enough [?], as currently written you can go from public school to charter but not from charter to public school.
Just sayin’…
Of course, what Joe Nathan neglects to say is that charter schools invariably characterize themselves as public schools for purposes of funding, but as private entities when teachers attempt to unionize as public employees, and that some courts have gone along with that.
No integrity, no credibility, nothing but empty cliches trying to disguise profiteering…
Mr. Florillo, in each of the 40 states that has a charter law, charters are referred to as public schools. Congress has passed a number of laws in which charters are included as public schools.
Just as you don’t like charters, I don’t like magnet schools that have admissions tests. But the fact is that legislation all over the country does refer to them as public.
What is it that you do Mr. Florillo? Are you a teacher? Parent? Administrator? What other than posting here, do you do to help youngsters, esp those from low income families?
I may be mistaken, but I believe Dr. Ravitch stated that all charter schools in Maryland are union shops. Is that correct?
Found the quote:
“Maryland has charters, but not very many, and they are unionized.”
The link is here: https://dianeravitch.net/2013/04/02/a-miracle-in-maryland/
Aside from that flimflam, one small charter chain here in San Francisco, Envision Schools, was (and possibly still is) listing everyone who visited or inquired about any of their schools on the alleged “long waiting list.” That operator used to post its board meeting minutes publicly, and the board meetings — at that same time — included discussion about the ongoing underenrollment problem — even as they boasted of their “long waiting lists.”
Since these claims are unverifiable even if they’re accurate, all reporters need to attribute them and include the disclaimer that they’re unverifiable, if they choose to quote self-serving and unverifiable claims to begin with.
Waiting lists, whether for district or charter, are always inexact.
In some school districts (such as St. Paul, Mn), there is an effort to respond when there are more people waiting to get in than there are spaces. So, for example, there was a significant waiting list for a Montessori (district) public school. So the district wisely opened a 2nd one.
Same is true of a Spanish immersion (district) public school. There is a significant waiting list, so the district is opening another one. The district also moved its French immersion school to a larger building because it too had a waiting list.
Sadly, some districts are delighted to have hundreds, even thousands of students on exclusive quasi private public schools that have admissions tests based on test score. There are a number of these in New York and Chicago.
Some people in the district schools and in charters want to focus on the people already attending their schools. Some want to try to help meet the needs of those who have asked to attend.
As noted, some families put their notes on more than one list. I applaud those trying to help youngsters in existing schools, and those who seek wants to help those who are on waiting list, in-exact as those lists may be.
It’s true that all waiting lists are inexact and essentially meaningless. When the first charter story hit the fan here in my neck of the woods — Edison Charter Academy in San Francisco — I was fast to recognize that the “long waiting list” claims being so earnestly parroted by the press were crap because I had just spent five years on the board of a parent-run co-op preschool. We would have an opening, and we’d THINK we had a solid waiting list, but we’d find that all the names on it had chosen other options (really, how likely was it that they’d keep the kid home watching “Barney” waiting for a spot at our preschool and only our preschool?).
So anyone experienced with running a school should know that “waiting list” boasts are pretty shaky. The issue is that the charter sector is forever using those boasts as a PR line, and the press and other influential voices fall for it constantly. And it’s not just a PR line — it’s used as justification for pushing for more charter schools, which harm public schools.
Remember what Goebbels, Hitler’s Propaganda Minister said “Tell a lie enough times and it becomes fact.”
In Texas, Sen. Dan Patrick keeps saying 100,000 kids on waiting lists. Well, there’s 5 million Texas public school students still waiting for restored funding!
The name appears 4 times on one list…that’s not a typo, haven’t you heard how we vote here in Chicago. Vote early, Vote often, your name can’t be on any list too many times (-;
Cee Mor I think that the story said that if a person appeared on 4 different lists, she/he was counted for times.
You’ll note that the story also mentioned thousands of students on the waiting list for Chicago’s quasi-private elite “magnets” that use admissions tests. Wouldn’t it be good for those programs to expand? How do you feel about “public schools” using admissions tests like private schools do?
As as native of Chicago, I’m disappointed that the district maintains schools that screen out kids with disabilities who can’t pass their tests, and other kids. At one point, the idea of public education was that these schools did NOT use admission tests.
That’s where I think we should be today.
This week’s Reader (go to chicagoreader.com) has a good story, as well, about all those Chicago parents and kids beating down the charter school doors!
It was a good thing that the charter school teachers are not unionized and that the charter schools stayed open while the Chicago teachers’ union went on strike, shutting the door on the students. Showing that they don’t care about students. Good thing the charter schools took care of a number of those students.
So it’s only thousands instead of thousands and thousands?
Now that’s a victory.
I call BS on the waiting lists entirely. Since so many charters have a record of huge attrition — students leaving in droves and NOT being replaced, as the numbers indisputably show — why aren’t the alleged hordes on the alleged waiting lists filling the seats of the students being pushed out? The entire area of waiting list claims is a total load of hooey. Shame on the press for EVER quoting these self-aggrandizing lies.
While waiting lists always are in a state of flux, they can provide valuable information. As noted earlier, the St Paul Public Schools created a new Montessori option after the first one filled and had a waiting list. Both now are operating.
After some parents asked for a Montessori middle school, the district did not respond. So some of these parents and some Montessori educators created a Montessori charter middle-high school, which has a waiting list.
The St. Paul Public Schools has now announced it will create a middle school Montessori school.
While agreeing that waiting lists are inexact, they can give useful information.
Sure, if people are genuinely putting their names on the waiting lists that’s definitely useful information. The San Francisco Unified School District has added many language immersion strands (in Spanish, Mandarin, Cantonese and one in Korean) in response to that.
The facts that people routinely and legitimately put their name on multiple waiting lists, and that waiting lists don’t hold up as the people make choices and thus are no longer actually waiting, are the reasons that it’s not legitimate to state that X number are on waiting lists as though all those names are actually waiting to get into your program, school, whatever.
Those are PART of the reason it’s not valid or legit to claim that X gazillion people are on charter schools’ alleged “long waiting lists.” That’s an invalid and dishonest reason to support opening charter schools or to hype charter schools, yet it’s used all the time. So that’s the heart of this discussion.
Other issues with charter schools’ alleged “long waiting lists,” just to recap:
I have seen brazen lies by charter operators claiming “long waiting lists” in my own locale, including charter schools claiming to have long waiting lists (parroted unquestioned in the press) while openly aggressively recruiting students and expressing urgency about trying to fill seats.
A large number of “successful” charter schools, notably KIPP schools, are marked by very high attrition of students who leave AND ARE NOT REPLACED — so if they have such “long waiting lists,” why aren’t they replacing the large number of students who leave?
I know that one operator of several charters, Envision Schools, has engaged in a practice of listing anyone who inquires about or visits the schools on the “long waiting list” when those people may not have put themselves on the lists at all. (If they have ceased this dishonest practice, it’s after being publicly outed.)
It’s all part of an ongoing, longstanding pattern of dishonesty and deceit by the charter sector.
Disclosure: I make no money from criticizing the charter sector — au contraire, I have harmed my employment prospects by doing so. I’m the parent of two children who attended urban public schools K-12 and am a very involved longtime volunteer on behalf of students in all communities; and the wife of an urban public school teacher in high-poverty schools.
I call upon anyone who is improving his or her income in any way — or hoping to — by praising or defending the charter sector to disclose this.
Oh, also: The New York Times’ Paul Tough stated flatly, without attribution or backup*, that “all KIPP schools have long waiting lists.” That’s false. The two KIPP schools in my district have a history of difficulty filling their seats and of having have more openings than applicants.
*a journalistic mortal sin