A reader tells me that Mitt Romney will be speaking at the Press Club in Baton Rouge on Monday.
I hope that journalists in Louisiana are ready to ask him some tough questions.
Ask him if he approves of using taxpayer dollars to send children to religious schools.
Ask him if he approves of spending public money to send kids to schools that teach creationism, not evolution.
Ask him if he knows that New Orleans is the next to the lowest scoring district in the state.
Ask him if he knows that 79% of the charters in New Orleans were graded either with a D or an F by the state.
Ask him if he knows that online for-profit charter schools get terrible test scores, low graduation rates, and have a high dropout rate.
Ask him if he thinks that the funding for vouchers and charters and online schools and for-profit vendors should come right out of the minimum funding for public schools.
Ask him if he has any ideas about how to help public schools, where the vast majority of children are students, because Governor Jindal does not.
And while you are at it, ask him if he knows that the NAEP test scores in reading and math for American children are the highest in American history, for every group, white, black, Hispanic, and Asian.
And be sure to ask him what he plans to do to help reduce the high cost of college (his answer: nothing, other than to hand student loans over to private banks).
Diane Ravitch's blog 
I hope some enterprising teachers in Louisiana will see to it that this blog post winds up in local journalists’ hands before Romney’s speech!
I’m on it, Jolie! I will be posting this and encouraging others around the state to contact reporters and provide them with the questions above.
And ask him why educators have been excluded from the conversation regarding public schools and the vast majority of children whom they have served so well.
I will be making efforts to contact reporters that may be in attendance at the Baton Rouge meeting before Monday. I am also posting this blog so that my contacts throughout the state may contact reporters. I hope it will help.
$50,000 for lunch!
http://businessreport.com/article/20120711/BUSINESSREPORT0112/120719961/-1/daily-report
Damn, that kind of money would go a long way into helping this public school teacher’s finances.
Is there a reduced fee, like free and reduced lunch prices, for the lowly unionized public school teachers? Maybe we could just sit under the tables and wait for the crumbs to fall? Then we could take notes and twitter everything in real time.
I send my money to a public school that indoctrinates children in globalism, Marxism, and every other social engineering idea the Progressive can come up with.
Why on earth should anyone be bothered if my money goes to pay for religious schools too?
Because your first sentence is patently false.
Prove your statement is true. You may find it difficult.
Also, because her first statement is false (for the sake of argument) does not mean her question is invalid.
Schools are not removed from society and are very much involved in the moulding of children’s world views.
Many would like to impose their views upon all children by using the schools as a vehicle of influence. Even those with the best interest of children at heart, like many of those posting here, will have a bias and will advance that bias. No one is neutral. We are a product of our experiences.
Extreme examples of indoctrination occur around the world. North Korea, Saudi Arabia & Palestine all use the schools to advance a world view that promotes hatred of another group. The schools of America are not immune to indoctrination. We have our own term for indoctrination “the melting pot”.
The larger question is why public schools and charter schools in Louisiana do such a poor job in educating the children of Louisiana and can the President of the United States, in any meaningful way, change the educational outcomes for the better?
Are the teachers of Louisiana incompetent and therefor the problem? Are the administrators of Louisiana incompetent and therefor the problem? Will a new law or executive order from Washington D.C. make them competent and correct the problem? (likely no to all three questions)
Education is an individual enterprise and we must remember that. Paternalism is an easy trap to fall into. It is hard to resist the seductive power of solving someone else’s problem for them or promoting your values at the expense of the individual’s values.
The Presidency of the United States is so far removed from the education of an individual that it is difficult to see why we even should care what the President thinks or what his plans are.
Education should be a personal decision, since we are dealing with individuals, to avoid the problems of paternalism. It take great strength to allow people to be autonomous when you “know” they are making the “wrong” decision. As a doctor you get used to it, but I don’t think that teachers have similar training in ethics.
I see no problem with parents directing the public funding of education to a Catholic School. It is no different than patients directing the public funding (Medicare/Medicaid) of health care to a Catholic Hospital. The education and the care are what are important not the location of service. The government’s role should largely be regulatory to insure that the education and the health care provided meet minimum standards.
Duane, I posted a link to a youtube video from a district in my state that promotes globalism, Marxism and social engineering.
Feel free to click on it and watch.
Thank you, Duane. MWAB always has an interesting “take” on things educational, doesn’t she?
IS this an honest exchange of info and opinions or a comments section that focuses on ganging up on those you disagree with?
Please let me know.
NO it’s not. I also send my money to a school that uses a Marxist indoctrination program to make the kids propagandists for UNESCO. I should just stop paying my taxes.
Thank you Teacher, you are bringing in opinions and thoughts worth thinking about. I do agree that there will be some who are ok with vouchers going to Christian schools but will shutter at the thought of vouchers going to Muslim schools.
How do we really know what is being taught in a home-school setting?
We have to understand that with freedom and liberty, comes great responsibility.
Nothing will ever be perfect or what we expect.
I object to some of what is taught in a public school, some Christian schools and Muslim schools. I would not want some of that education for my own children. However I respect the decisions of other parents to guide their children as they see fit.
I think the only time the State should step in is when there is true neglect or abuse. (I’m hardly an anarchist)
The purpose or job of pubic ed is NOT to undermine the role of parents. It is not to change the values or religious beliefs of children.
I disagree with the religious beliefs of some of my own family members who I love and respect.
If we do not want the Feds dictating to teachers what they can do in their classrooms, then we need to give that same respect to parents. Even if we disagree with their decisions.
I have no problem with a Muslim parent using a voucher for their children at a Muslim school. I would expect they would be educating their children with Islamic studies if they were to home-school.
I may disagree with their religious beliefs, but I respect their religious choice per the Constitution and their right to raise their children as they see fit.
I do expect a public school to fully educate students and leave the religion to the families.
“Why on earth should anyone be bothered if my money goes to pay for religious schools too?”
Because you’ll be upset when that Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, etc. school wants a piece of the voucher pie.
Will the lack of vouchers cause children not to be Muslim, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Scientologist, etc? It hasn’t yet. No vouchers and still religions exist.
Your fear is that vouchers will make public schools disappear. Your fear is unfounded unless the public school is so dismal that it needs to disappear.
Why have a school board election with less than 5% of the population voting when 100% of the children can vote their voucher
They do now! IB is pushing Muslim and GAIA. That’s bad enough. At least Christianity is what this country was founded upon.
Mike,
You’re not seeing my argument. People may generally be okay with vouchers because they assume that some will be going to the Catholic school or well-established school sponsored by a mainline Protestant denomination. But then when that Mosque wants to open a school, that’s when most taxpayers will demand exceptions.
It’s happening in Louisiana as we speak. The Muslim school withdrew its application, but LA officials are still trying to deal with the fallout and trying to prepare for future controversial applications.
I hope you are not a teacher. I have met a few who were a little on the conservative side, but not with this much religious right brainwashing. And remember, if you give tax money to religious schools, legally you would have to give it to ALL religious schools, including those run by MUSLIMS! Of course in Louisiana they are not doing it legally and for some reason the Muslim school dropped out of the voucher program.
I have never taught globalism, Marxism or social engineering, myself and I never heard of any teacher who did. I prayed for my children and for God to show me the right way to teach them regularly in the 27 years I worked in public schools.
As for the Marxism, I had a book in the 8th grade that was about communism. This was around the time of the Bay of Pigs. It showed Russian children wearing uniforms to school. That impressed me so much that I am seriously opposed to school uniforms because they are socialistic. But children in Louisiana are forced to wear them. When I drove to work in New Orleans on the first day of school, I was utterly shocked. I thought surely these children were not all Catholic.
Why should we be bothered if our tax money goes to religious schools? Because they teach things like that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization to sought to bring morality back to the community, for one thing! That is from a curriculum called Accelerated Christian Education that is used in some Christian schools. Because the co-workers of a teacher in a school in New Orleans said that you could not be a Christian unless you were a Republican for another.
There is no way to control religious schools built into the laws or anything to make them accountable. Plus they can hire “teachers” who don’t even have a college education. So the waitress at the Huddle House today could be teaching your child tomorrow! They also are not level playing fields because they can pick and choose their students, kick out the ones that have problems, and refuse to take special ed even though they pretend to be public schools. That’s why.
Louisiana voucher applications exceed predictions http://www.shreveporttimes.com/article/20120711/NEWS0401/120711031/Louisiana-voucher-applications-exceed-predictions?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Only 2% of eligible children applied for a voucher. 9,000 kids out of 450,000 eligibles.
This has nothing to do with religion or vouchers. I just want the public schools to STOP SENDING MY MONEY TO UNESCO so it can brainwash kids with the Marxist indoctrination program that has them embedding UNESCO goals in the curriculum. Instead of studying science, they are promoting social issues important to ‘globalism’. Which simply means redistribution of the wealth overseas. I just want academics, period…. please get this horrific stuff out of my school. (yes I’m a teacher)
Social Justice is now part of the curriculum in many public schools. Instead of sending money to religious schools, the theology is now being incorporated in the public schools.
The term “social justice” comes from the 19th-century Italian Catholic thinkers. I’d say the thinking of those in the 19th Century differs from today’s interpretation, however it’s something to keep in mind when public schools enter the realm of social justice/theology.
I’d prefer public schools to focus on educating children. When the “state” becomes the moral authority for children, the focus on academics is weakened.
I assume you are talking about the International Baccalaureate program.
I don’t care too much for the program myself and feel that students can be served just as well by the Advanced Placement program when it comes to getting college credit early.
“I send my money to a public school that indoctrinates children in globalism, Marxism, and every other social engineering idea the Progressive can come up with.” What an absolutely false, bogus loathsome statement. In what possible alternate universe is that statement even remotely true? Utter garbage. This is just another knock at teachers who are working hard to educate the children. Now the teachers are, in essence, being accused of being Marxists, globalists and God knows what else. How much more humiliation must teachers endure? Please take your right wing comments to the right wing creationists web site.
Joe, there is a great deal of progressive indoctrination in public school education. I’m a teacher and I know first hand that if you do not speak the liberal line, you will be marginalized. It’s very unfortunate, but true. When all points of view are respected and included, maybe this will change.
There is far less indoctrination in public schools than in religious schools. Religious schools have a doctrine. Public schools have no doctrine other than democracy.
Public schools present diversity and a variety of ideas. They are supposed to anyway. That is why the Right objects to them and why there are concerns about the textbook committee in Texas getting books that marginalized progressive ideas and emphasized conservative ones instead of providing equal treatment..
Religious schools present only their viewpoint. That is why the head of the Catholic Education Programs at Notre Dame called parochial schools “the greatest tools for evangelism the world has known”.
Joe it’s not a knock on teachers it’s a knock on the administration and fact they don’t listen to teachers. I am one I should know. Get the Feds and State out!
Education is indoctrination. I agree that public schools push a liberal agenda. Just look at most new teacher evaluation instruments, such as with NC, where global awareness is a huge part of what administrators are looking for in a lesson from a teacher.
Now, marxism? Not so sure about that one.
As a mostly conservative thinker, it sometimes can be hard for me to juggle the differing agendas of public education. But on the other hand, this is what makes even teachers unique – we call come with our own ideological “baggage” and should not be penalized for it. Another reason why tenure for teachers is so important.
And Diane, I would be careful advocating the teaching of evolution over creationism. While I can agree that creationism is not science, I have questions concerning the scientific veracity of evolution. In fact, some of the “science” behind our value-added projection (forward looking) reminds me of the “science” behind evolution (backward looking).
Pure science concerns itself with the mechanistic properties of our natural, observable (directly or indirectly) world, not some shady projection about something we cannot observe neither directly or indirectly.
A student’s projected growth is as shady as the projected historical, evolutionary change as supported by an analysis of fossils.
Yet both seem to be based on “evidence”, therefore, they must both be accurate.
I am not a scientist, and I would not give anyone advice about the scientific basis of evolution.
But without being a scientist, I nonetheless feel confident in saying that the Creation story of the Bible is a myth and should not be taught in a science class.
I don’t believe that religious ideas belong in a science class.
To my knowledge, every reputable scientist believes that evolution did occur.
We can’t know everything, so we have to find experts that we trust. When the experts are near unanimous, I save time by listening to them.
In the case of value-added assessment, the majority of experts (including me) say it is inaccurate, unreliable and unstable, and will harm children and teachers.
“I am not a scientist, and I would not give anyone advice about the scientific basis of evolution.
But without being a scientist, I nonetheless feel confident in saying that the Creation story of the Bible is a myth and should not be taught in a science class.
I don’t believe that religious ideas belong in a science class.”
I agree in leaving religion out of public schools. Thumbs up.
“To my knowledge, every reputable scientist believes that evolution did occur.
We can’t know everything, so we have to find experts that we trust. When the experts are near unanimous, I save time by listening to them.
In the case of value-added assessment, the majority of experts (including me) say it is inaccurate, unreliable and unstable, and will harm children and teachers.”
The majority of economists say VAM is reliable, and that linear regression gives rise to reliable forecasting. And just because most scientists believe evolution to be true, doesn’t mean it is so. This is called an appeal to authority and is a logical fallacy.
Although I have no problem teaching evolution (and do have a problem teaching creation as fact), and I will openly and happily teach my own children about evolution, we should not appeal to authority. Science doesn’t work that way.
I don’t mind pushing global awareness so long as we don’t have to embed that into every lesson to the detriment of real learning. Why should we push a political agenda from a mostly communist political organization from Geneva?
Sure Mike, who needs those stinking evil traditional public schools with all those evil Marxist Leninist teachers who believe in evolution, science and tolerance (sarcasm off). Amazing how Mike shows up so fast to give aerial support to brainy mom’s outrageous screed. Coincidence? Or were we spammed?
Mike, I get the impression you have never set foot in a public school. I have been in many and I have never seen extremist indoctrination or brain washing of any kind.
I don’t think Louisiana has “bad” teachers. It does have huge poverty. Wherever scores are low, there is great poverty. Did you notice?
Diane, soft propaganda is still propaganda. The International Baccalaureate is FULL of U.N. indoctrination.
Go to the IB web site’s search engine. Type in: Earth Charter OR Agenda 21 and you will see this is incorporated in the PYP/MYP program.
This is a political agenda, not an academic program.
This is now in many public schools and being promoted through Title II funds.
Now some people may not care that this is in their schools, but the fact is, that’s just ONE of many examples.
Here is another from NH where the school used a pro-Marxist/Socialist book in their Personal Finance class. This was such a big issue, it made the local and national news.
The author is a political extremist and instead of teaching kids personal finance skills, they were indoctrinated in Marxist ideology.
I could go on….but I hope you get the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dixseyKT324 Sorry, here is the youtube video for the above comment
I wrote a book called “The Language Police” about textbooks in 2003. I read every major history and literature textbook used in American schools. I had many criticisms of them. I did not see any Marxism or socialism or world government. I truly don’t know what you are talking about.
Oh, please.
I would like to see Romney take a stand against International Baccalaureate, the very expensive, United Nations programme used in so many of our public schools.
http://myinclinevillage.com/2011/07/31/what-all-parents–students-should-know-before-enrolling-in-ib.aspx
I am very disappointed by Ms. Ravitch’s comments to MomWithABrain. Perhaps it would interest her to know that in the Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) which is part of the International Baccalaureate Diploma program, students are encouraged to discuss Evolution vs. Creationism:
http://truthaboutib.com/theibhiddencurriculum/ibtokcurriculum.html
TOK’s origins can be traced to Kant and Marx.
In 2009, the ARRA included over $10B for Title I U.S. schools to implement “innovative programs”. Administrators across the U.S. jumped on this “free money” in order to file for IB authorization.
IB claims it develops “higher critical thinking skills” and open-minded students who will become “lifelong learners” while demonizing rote memorization. This outrageously expensive, foreign program (IBO is an NGO of UNESCO) does not belong in our American public schools.
Public schools should be APOLITICAL. Using U.S. taxdollars to push programs that focus primarily on social justice and global citizenship are never going to improve the academic culture of our schools. Great teachers, smaller class-sizes and fact-based curriculum will improve our public schools.
I hope he abolishes the DOE. I know Ron Paul would. That way it would get the feds and state out of our hair which is illegal, so we can TEACH! Gov’t is nothing but indoctrination and dumbing down…especially that UNESCO program that makes kids into political mules.
Obviously, Diane’s comments section is being carpet bombed by some far right wing group.
I agree with that. Suddenly an explosion of people who don’t believe in public education or evolution and think the schools are filled with Marxists and socialists. What gives?
Diane,
It would help to simply discuss the information that has been presented instead of playing into the “drama”.
What do you mean by people who do not believe in public education?
THe very people who RUN on funding and supporting public education are literally destroying it right now.
So who truly supports public education? The Union supporters? IS that your current definition of a public education supporter?
Please define that.
I gave you concrete examples of some of the political indoctrination going on in public schools right now. If you want to ignore that, that is certainly your right. However don’t kill the messenger. It’s a debate tactic that is boring and leaves you looking like you can’t either accept the truth or have no counter information.
I am a supporter of public education but I will not sell out the children in the process.
We’ve been “reforming” education for decades. It’s not working when you have up to 40% of students needing remedial education in many states.
It’s a shame that public school Administrators went along with the govt. bureaucrats who clearly set them up for failure.
Those of us who have watched govt. mandates harm children and now teachers and principals have been warning about this for a long time.
Unfortunately the focus wasn’t on getting the govt. OUT of the classroom.
The GOVT. will break your leg…then hand you a crutch and tell you…See we fixed it.
IF you can’t see how they’ve systematically done that over the past few decades, I’m not sure you’ll ever see it.
The indoctrination is just a small symptom of a HUGE problem. It began when the schools became social engineering centers that thought the STATE could raise children better than parents.
They should have stuck to their primary purpose…educating children and telling the govt. to find another way to do their social engineering work.
I don’t think this is a useful dialogue. I am happy to have people discuss and disagree, but you just spout your own opinions on topics of your own invention with no relevance to any of the topics at hand. You are not open-minded. You don’t listen to others. You are on your own soapbox. I’m sorry but there is nothing more I can say to you.
I’ve offered information and facts based on what has been presented in your blog by you or what others have presented as comments.
If this is a blog for patting each other on the back and not for those with critical thoughts, opinions and facts, please let me know.
I find it strange that after reading and responding to this blog for about a week or two, you’ve managed to sum up my position so quickly.
On some subjects I’ve found common ground. On others, a difference of opinion based on facts I’ve also added in my replies.
One can certainly disagree or offer up opposing commentary and facts.
I read as many as I can, so I wonder why you would make an assumption that I’m closed minded to anything that’s been presented.
I do not oppose school choice. You do. Does that make you close minded or me close minded?
Or do we have a difference of opinion?
I sense that the term “closed minded” is used to shut down a discussion rather than respectfully accepting a difference of opinion and further sharing information for why we’ve developed that opinion.
If this is a blog where no counter opinions are welcome, and only praise for the blogger is appreciated, please advise.
Diane, the fact that you are asking me to “believe” in evolution is the very reason why I deny its scientific status. In science, we don’t “believe” in a scientific theory, we accept its merit based on well it’s study adhered to scientific methods, the robust level of support from data, and how well the theory predicts.
And by the way, I am a firm believer in public schools!
I am not asking you to “believe” in evolution. I am suggesting that you believe in scientific evidence.
A few years ago Focus on the Family or the American Family Association came out with the idea that people should home school or send their children to christian academies because public school teachers were not Christians because they did not read the Bible or pray in public schools. It was part of a campaign they were doing to get women to stop working and having careers, live on less and leave the jobs to the males.
This may be where some of this is coming from. The religious right has seriously pushed this kind of thing the last few years as you can find if you read Focus, AFA, Concerned Women for America, or Coral Ridge Ministries (which has another name now). They all put out pretty much the same line and some of the chapters of AFA have been declared officially hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The started blaming the demise of prayer in the schools (which really never happened, especially in the South) on the teachers shortly after the regulations passed and it has mushroomed since then. It’s is really an outgrowth of their losses in the Civil Rights Movement.
Diane, asking me to “believe in the evidence that supports evolution” is the same as asking me to “believe in evolution.” In neither case do scientists “believe” – they accept evidence and they accept theory.
A rule of thumb is that the world “believe” is not a word that mixes with science very well.
Google MomwithaBrain and look at the comments she has been posting for 4+ years all over. Vaccines cause autism, schools are brainwashing children, hates anything governmental, book banning because she disagrees with the book for HER kids, as long as HER kids are okay who cares about the rest etc… I am for people expressing themselves but it is unfortunate when someone expresses themselves so chaotically in a forum like this. We used to have people standing in the streets of big cities screaming “The world is ending” at the top of their lungs. I guess this is the cyber version of that. The other sites she blogs to seem to ignore her after awhile. As many as she blogs on she has a lot of time on her hands and just as many opinions. Not evidence.
Confused, you just explained why so many people now prefer school choice. Mom’s simply do not matter anymore to those working in the education field. It’s sad but your attacks on me personally just shows why moms simply want to walk away from those running the public schools.
Our opinions are marginalized, attacked and discounted, instead of engaged, challenged and mutually respected.
I’ve never said vaccines cause autism. My kids have been vaccinated. I am picky about vaccines and try to educate myself first, but I’m not a medical doctor. I do wonder if some children have a reaction to certain vaccines, but parents can research vaccines and decide for themselves. I do use caution simply because a vaccine that was administered to my 3rd child was then removed from the market (Roto-shield for the Rotovirus) because of serious complications. That was a real eye opener for me. We use caution with vaccines.
Hating anything governmental? Well we can see how well the Govt.’s doing as they micromanage the classroom.
Limited Govt. does not mean anarchy. Please get your facts straight before lashing out at others.
Is this about discussing education topics or attacking the messenger?
The autism thing is interesting. I may be wrong, but it seems to be only a Western phenomenon.
MOMwithAbrain: “I’ve never said vaccines cause autism. My kids have been vaccinated. I am picky about vaccines and try to educate myself first, but I’m not a medical doctor.”
You are not a professional educator either, but you sure act as if you know all about public education.
Yes a fusty old teacher like me sitting here with my right wing cat… LOL The TOK is a Marxist method to challenge ones traditional beliefs . I have never said to ‘teach’ creationism but Lisa is right, TOK is the place where they discuss everything. Everything and anything should be discussed, it’s just that they are required to propagandize on the UN’s MDG and this is not right. Why not have them promote the agenda of the NRA? The Tax Coalition? Other groups? Why some communist NGO from Geneva? This is not local control.
Diane, the only doctrine that SHOULD be taught in public schools is democracy which includes the freedom of speech. Unfortunately, many teachers do not show respect to students or colleagues who hold beliefs and values which are different from theirs. I have been a public school teacher for many years. Teachers work very hard. I love my fellow teachers but would like to see some of them show more tolerance. That would provide a truly democratic example to our students.
BRAVO! There is no academic freedom or freedom of speech. Just ask those of us driven out because we would NOT ACCEPT THE ONE WORLD AGENDA.
Well, sports fans, I believe we have entered some kind of twilight zone of tin foil hatism and conspiracy theories gone wild. Yikes! How do you even respond to this nonsense? It’s so utterly ridiculous that it almost does not merit a reasoned explanation. I’ll leave that to people with more patience and I actually have a lot of patience.
you’re so brainwashed you don’t even know what you are you doing any longer. It’s sad… what is taken for granted is all POLITICAL.
just for the record: Every reputable scientist agrees that evolution occurred. None posit creationism.
just for the record: it is not true that “the majority of economists” think value-added assessment is right. Most economists don’t think about measuring teacher performance. A small number of economists think that test scores are all that matter in education. If you agree with that proposition, then you can believe in VAM. If you think that there is more to teaching than test scores, then they are wrong. Other economists disagree with them. I have been studying education for more than 40 years. I think test scores matter, but not more than character, citizenship, love of learning, and other important goals.
Unfortunately, that does not seem to matter to the Religious Right. They don’t care much about reputation among scientists. An example from a related field is their continued embrace of Paul Cameron, the psychologist who says that homosexuality is a behavior that can be cured. He is still quoted regularly.
No one here is advocating the teaching of creationism. What we are advocating is that they get BACK TO ACADEMICS and dump the UN agenda which insists on certain themes being woven into the curricula so that students actually end up promoting it for them.
Diane, my point to you hinged on two things – 1st that we ought not think VAM is reliable just because the majority of economists say so – and they do. How about ALL the economists at SAS including Sanders, Smith, etc… How about ASS the economists at Mathematica including Glazerman and company. How about Hanushek. How about Chetty, Friedman, and Rockoff. How about Goldhaber and Hansen. How about ETC….
What economists are against? Rothstein? Is Bruce Baker an economist? So what other economists are you talking about? I’m not attacking you, I’m just curious. And don’t forget, I personally think VAM is a big pile of doggy do-do.
The 2nd point was this – just because the vast majority of scientists purport evolution to be fact does not mean it is in the same manner that just because all the big names I just spouted off to you accept VAM as a fact, does not mean VAM is fact.
It’s called an appeal to authority and it does not work. Period.
Sorry – I mean *ALL not the other word. LOL.
To begin with, the issue of VAM should not be decided by economists. That is like saying that carpenters should decide who is the best pastry chef. Maybe they know because they eat a lot of pastry, but maybe they don’t. I worked closely with Hanushek at Hoover, and on a personal level, I like him. Also with Hoxby and Raymond, Chubb and Moe.
I just don’t see how anyone can say that a teacher can be evaluated by student test scores. Educators are more expert about education than economists. Economists take test scores at face value as measures of “effective teaching” or measures of performance. When a runner runs, his or her time to complete the course is an accurate measure of his performance. That is the goal of his running. When a baseball pitcher plays in a game, you can accurately measure his performance (balls and strikes, outs and runs scored). But a teacher has many responsibilities; the work of teaching is multi-faceted. The test measures the student’s performance, not the teacher’s performance, and even Hanushek has written that the teacher affects between 7 1/2-15% of the variation in test scores. The family accounts for about 60%. How then can a teacher be measured when so much of the variation is beyond the teacher’s control. This is unreasonable. And only someone who believes in the sanctity of standardized test scores would suggest it.
Sanders, by the way, is not an economist. He is an agricultural statistician. And children are not corn.
Thank you Diane. Very nicely expressed. What is very sad is Glazerman. He downright pisses me off by accepting the low correlation values of future teacher success based on VAM, and even accepts that there will be “false negatives”. He argues that because comparable low correlation values exist in other fields, in predicting employee success, that we ought to abide by the same philosophy and that this will increase student achievement (ties right into Gates “rank stacking”). But the crux of the issue, as I have communicated to him, is that baseball batters, real estate agents, and the other professions that rely on comparable correlation values to predict future employee success, all involve easy to judge outcomes that can be used to judge success or failure of an employee. Just because a teacher has a class of students that fail to grow, does not mean that teacher is incompetent.
I think you asked me last night about opposition to the use of VAM. It was midnight, and I was tired. I could cite many names, but a good single source is this one by an eminent mathematician, John Ewing. It may interest you to know that he refers to the Glazerman et al. paper as “fatuous.” I will blog about this article, because it encapsulates how far off base the current policy obsession with VAM is.
Yes Diane, I have seen that article by Ewing, and I have read Glazerman’s study. I am not sure I’ve ever read an article that made my blood boil more than Glazerman’s – it serves as proof positive that idiots that have never taught should not be allowed to carry out research in any work that involves education. Instead, if someone wants to talk about education, there should be some social rule, that if you haven’t taught for at least 10 years, you should just keep your big, dumb mouth shut.
Also, Diane, if you look at my longer post at the bottom, I believe you can see some parallels with what Ewing is claiming – we are selling VAM as “science” when really it fails as such based on an invalid logic that we can control variables that influence student learning enough to use VAM within a teacher’s personal, professional evaluation. Ewing concentrates more on the math side, but really this is a scientific issue as any time variables in math are applied to a situation, then science is at the heart of the process. The math is just the language of science. If the science is wrong, then the math that is carried out is just GIGO.
Evolution is a scientific theory, it is fact, it has been peer reviewed for decades. It’s not a wild guess, it is not some unsubstantiated theory in the popular sense of what a theory is. A scientific theory is a different kind of “animal,” it is fact. The only authority here is truth, fact, the overwhelming burden of data and decades of observation. Creationism and Intelligent Design are not science, they are garbage and should not be in the science classroom of a public school. I should be in bed but I am hooked (on phonics?).
Creationism and intelligent design are not garbage. They are theology. The Bible is not in conflict with science, but the Bible is a “What happened” book, not a “How it happened” book. I believe that God used evolution as an important tool to intelligently design the world. Therefore, it is probably mostly accurate, although I am not sure about the natural selection that would create a platypus. Intelligent design and creationism belong in history classes because they shape how humans see the world and their efforts to find and explain God and how the world came to be. They do not belong in science classes.
I agree with your assessment regarding creationism and I.D. I am suspicious about your assessment of evolution. Notice I am not proposing it to be false, I just see the science used to investigate the origin of the species (or the effects of unemployment on GDP) as a different quality of science that is used to investigate the effects of gravity.
In fact, I believe the “science” behind VAM has similar shortcomings as the “science” behind evolution.
The time-laden forward projection of VAM fails to control for variables (as is the case in most economic “experimentation”), makes hypotheses difficult to test, does not meet Popper’s falsifiabilty, and relies on “verificationism” in terms of reliability in order to support its validity.
The time-laden backward projection of evolutionary science fails to control for variables, is difficult to impossible to test, does not meet Popper’s falsifiability, and also relies on “verificationism” in terms of the reliability of its circumstantial evidences (as most historical sciences do) to support its validity.
Neither science should be classified in the same boat as the level and quality of science used to study the effects of gravity in which variables can be controlled to a much larger extent, hypotheses are easier to test or model, theories can meet Popper’s falsifiability demands for the sake of validity rather than correlation studies as in economics or evolution – where in both cases, we are simply attributing the validity of a proposed theory based on the proximity of their data outcomes.
This has been a beef of mine concerning both Ms. Ravitch and Darling-Hammond – that they are both looking at the correlational outcomes of VAM (in terms of year to year teacher ratings) and refuting its scientifc nature based on its unreliable nature. The outcomes of VAM could be completely reliable (there would not be large movements of teachers from higher percentiles to lower percentiles) and VAM could still be INVALID. Reliability does not necessarily dictate validity.
VAM is not valid because there is NO way to control the myriad of variables that affect student learning, and no matter what correlation values we calculated year after year, VAM is still invalid based on its inability to adhere to sound scientific principles.
It reminds me of measuring the height of an individual who is standing on a two-by-four and measuring them over and over again. Our measurements would be very reliable, although they would not be valid. This is a downfall of the “softer” sciences such as economics, and where I believe evolution fits, that their theories are not regarded, or should NOT be regarded, as plausible as theories in the “hard”, natural sciences as biology, chemistry, and physics. Let’s not forget, than in the sciences relying on correlation studies – correlation does not imply causation AND “lurking variables” are the evil enemies of these sciences. “Lurking variables” are variables that readily exist, are ignored or overlooked by the researcher, and effect the dependent variable. Lurking variables inevitably exist more in time-laden studies, where processes involving variables occur over a change in time, and there is no way to go back and replicate the process. Hence the reliance on the softer sciences to implement correlation studies to validiate their theories rather than abiding strictly by scientific methods, especially in terms of falsifiability, such as with the hard sciences.
Please dont misunderstand. Soft sciences have their place, and I do place a minor amount of confidence in meteorologists and forensic scientists, but as a whole we need to understand the defiencies of these sciences, especially when somebody tries to sell the outcomes of these soft sciences as “science” or “scientific”.
I’m also not advocating that VAM is not or could not be beneficial in a diagnostic form. To me, it would amount to a weather forecast – interesting, but not something I would bank on.
The argument is should it be part of a teacher’s personal, professional evaluation? Ethically and legally, the answer is NO. And labor lawyers will eventually have to hash this part out, and surely they should win with a judge or jury that have half a brain.
The luncheon costs $50,000! That is more than many teachers make in a year. I hope someone gets in there and asks the hard questions, but this is Louisiana we are talking about, a blood red state where even the liberals are really moderates and the businesses are salivating to get that $8000 dollars plus per student.
We would still have the same policies no matter who is elected (unless it’s RP which still might happen if the GOP loses the lawsuit)