Stephen Owens is an evangelical Christian who has thought deeply about the importance of public schools in our society. He has a Ph.D. In education policy from the University of Georgia and is Director of Education at the Georgia Budget and Policy Institute. His blog is called “Common Grace, Common Schools.”
Let’s begin my argument for public schooling by making the familiar strange. There are aspects of public schooling that you do not see in any other facet of American life that need to be evaluated to better understand the institution’s value. Our familiarity with them takes away their novelty, but they are unique nonetheless. I think of us like a child who has Kelly Clarkson as an aunt. Just because she thinks of the singer as “Aunt Kelly” doesn’t mean we all have aunts who can sing like an angel.
Not only are parts of American public schooling unique, but reflect central tenets of the Christian faith. I want to explore three of them in the next few posts: inclusion, equity and accountability.
To put it concisely: I believe in the American cultural and political environment the public school is best situated to offer the highest quality service for all and, most specifically, the poor. I believe this is known, in my faith tradition, as common grace.
Now when I say the “poor” I’m not just talking about those who have more needs than resources, but a more generalized group of people that, for one reason or another, have structural obstacles to academic success. Students with disabilities and children who speak a language other than English at home are two perfect examples. Further, I don’t mean to imply that the state of a family’s bank account should be conflated with a child’s worth. Being “poor” in this sense cannot mean a person has less intrinsic value. The poor in this blog instead denotes a looser title for those children for which a neutral bystander might say, “good for them!” if the child were to perform a task common to the ruling class such as graduating from college.
I believe public schools are most valuable as a tool to lessen human suffering on the poor–one of the primary, and possibly only, ends of good governance—but that is not to say that its benefits end with this group. In fact, with few exceptions, I’m convinced that public schools are a service that have shown to support allpeople groups in our country. Foundational to this belief is the fact that public schools are required to provide services to every single child that arrives.
Inclusion. Public schools (in their current state) are for everyone. The road to the schools I attended in the 90s is paved with hard-fought legal protections for children that the majority culture would rather not teach. Throughout American history school leaders had to be forced to educate women, immigrants, Black people, students with disabilities and undocumented students via government compulsion. Each of these groups had to wait for laws to be changed to gain the advantages that white, rich, Protestant males shared since before our country was founded. This is not ancient history. My mom was a junior in high school when disabled kids got the right to a public education (1975). Undocumented children were guaranteed the same right two years before I was born (1982).
Inclusion, at least by this definition, has required blood, sweat and tears. It would be foolish to assume that inclusion is natural. In fact, inclusion is so unnatural to the way we consider schooling that its inverse remains a feature of excellence in the public mind. Consider elite schools’ relationship to exclusion: the ability to reject applicants based on test scores or income signals quality in a way that other schools could never replicate with performance alone. Post-secondary education is our best example here. Rejection rates for the Ivy Leagues not only “prove” their superiority but create it. For how could Harvard do poorly as a school if they’re allowed to choose to only educate the top seven percent of all those that apply?
It is only the common, or public, school which is left to teach all who enter her doors and, once inside, compelled to provide basic opportunities to each by threat of legal action. Inclusion, since it has been won, can be demanded.
Here I need to be explicit: inclusion is a good thing. Too often advocates for public schools treat inclusion as a burden to bear—“we can’t turn away students like private schools…”—instead of their greatest strength. Inclusion at some level acknowledges dignity in every person; Christians ought to be familiar with the concept via imago dei (the image of God). Early in Genesis the reader learns that God created humans in His image, bearing His likeness. Theologians have explained this concept differentiates humans from any other created thing by our spiritual/moral/missional similarity to the Creator. There is nothing that can remove this distinction, so every person you and I have ever met “looks” like God in some form. I’m convinced that this concept should be celebrated as the starting place for who is allowed where.
Now consider: where else is this the case? Think about your daily life, what physical spaces are compelled to not only accept everyone, but to give them foundational services? The other day a family came into a coffee shop where I was working and just sat. I will admit to being surprised. They didn’t buy anything, just sat on a couch near me while the kids looked at their iPads. I’m so used to private spaces that I did not think those people belonged until they bought something. This belief did not come out of thin air, many of the places that we imagine as public are only available if we have money, genius, status or some other item to trade. Outside of government programs (public parks, public transit, etc.) it’s hard to imagine a comparable institution to public schools besides hospitals. While I believe there are several similarities between schools and hospitals (nurses and teachers have long seen commonalities between how they are treated, for example), two major differences are apparent: 1) hospitals don’t exist in many rural communities and 2) no one has gone into debt because of the services provided by public schools.
I am, as I hope I’ve made clear up to this point, big on inclusion. But what are the public schools forced to include all children to? What occurs in the inner circle that has for generations been open only to the few? The generally-accepted answer to this question, and more broadly the question of “what is the purpose of education” usually falls into two categories–socialization and skill acquisition. When I describe the need for public schools to include all people it is with the latter purpose in mind. Poor children have been historically kept from learning the skills that are needed to earn living wages. A strong school system can help ensure higher wages, better health outcomes and decreased likelihood of entering the criminal justice system. On the path to living wages (and therefore less human suffering) there are few hurdles higher than failing to graduate high school and college.
The need for public education, and the majority-culture’s attempt to restrict it to the few, has a long history in our country. Tunis Campbell, the father of public education in Georgia, recognized a strong education as necessary to support formerly-enslaved people in post-Civil War Georgia. Without the ability to read, Campbell knew that freed men would continue to be subject to, among other racist practices, predatory labor contracts. Rev. Campbell spent the years following Sherman’s march setting up schools for freed people and is as responsible as any person for the state constitution’s inclusion of a right to public education for all children. He believed education sat alongside land ownership, a just court system and community service as necessary keys to a good life for Black Georgians.
Bringing it back to the present, I will put socialization to the side for now and will describe how the very nature of common schools supports poor families more than their richer neighbors. There are many facets of public schooling which we take for granted but that are frankly unbelievable. Every morning a transit system crawls cities, towns and rural counties to pick up any child that arrives to the stop on time and take them to their school. This service is provided at no additional cost to the child’s family whether they live one mile from the building or 30. In a country that tends to require the ownership and maintenance of a personal-transport vessel as the price for admission to society, the school bus itself is a marvel. It’s far from the only one. Health care, multiple meals and career guidance are all things that richer families can pay for but are often out of reach for the poor. In the public school each (via school health clinics, free food and school counseling) are provided part and parcel to poor public school children. If any one of these services were not already a part of schooling in America, it is impossible to imagine them being created and, more importantly, paid for with public funds. It is services like these that do not neatly fit into a definition of schooling but have become a pivotal safety net for struggling families in our nation. To ignore the role of public schools as welfare is convenient but unhelpful.
To ignore the role of public schools as welfare is convenient but unhelpful.
I’d go as far as to say that the true measure of a school is their support for the poor. The brutal truth of schooling in the U.S. is that parental income is strongly predictive of educational outcomes. While we like to imagine a true meritocracy, the real difference is whether your parents have enough money to provide 1) security (food and housing), 2) accountability, 3) targeted support and 4) social capital. So, any time I come across the “conventional wisdom” of the superiority of private schools it sounds like someone bragging that Georgia beat Vanderbilt in football. Duh: Kirby and…whomever is coaching Vandy… are dealing with two qualitatively different pools of players. If we’re really going to provide the measure of a school, look to the services provided to those that the Bible refers to as “the least of these.”
When you compare the test performance of wealthy Americans to other nations it’s clear we are on par with, or outperforming, every other country in the world. What makes our system “mediocre” is our treatment of poor children. Generations of white supremacist policies have ensured that wealth is concentrated in white families. So, the limitations of our public school system cannot be separated from our nation’s original sin. The good news is that income does not have to equal destiny. Research has shown that investment in public schools can and does level the playing field, but the investments have to go to the schools and/or children that need them the most. Another word for this is equity. I will write about equity in the next post.
–Stephen
Diane . . . totally stunning . . . CBK
Reblogged this on Crazy Normal – the Classroom Exposé and commented:
“Generations of white supremacist policies have ensured that wealth is concentrated in white families. So, the limitations of our public school system cannot be separated from our nation’s original sin.”
Lloyd Another takeaway is for RSRP’s (really-stupid-religious-people):
God works in mysterious ways; or religious meaning can be wonderfully expressed in secular-democratic cultures without being oppressive, punitive, embodied in scam artists or in totalitarian dictators and their followers on the style of Jim Jones; confused with capitalism and white supremacy, or even served up in direct religious language, and especially in RSRP’s who think that MY religion is the ONLY religion and all the rest will burn in hell . . . which upon hearing I reply: what exactly is the name of your tribe? Certainly, it’s not Christianity. CBK
RSRPs.
Really? Who determines who belongs in that category? I’d consider anyone who believes in a sky-daddy god, or any other faith belief to be in that category.
“God works in mysterious ways”
Really? You have to know this is coming: Which god?
“Certainly, it’s not Christianity”
Really? Who are you to look into the heart and mind of others to determine that.
Which gets to the crux of the faith belief problems we as a society have. Who determines the orthodoxies of the faith beliefs? How can those outside those faith beliefs determine whether those with faith beliefs believe in the sanctity of each individual so as to determine whether the faith believers can be considered harmless. As history has shown, non-faith believers have been at danger due to the various faith believers thinking they know what their god wants them to do. . . kill the infidels.
Duane,
Why do you automatically associate religion with oppression? That’s not how many religious people (and their churches) practice their religions. They aren’t interested in converting everyone or using their religion to control others and make them adhere to the religious rules they believe.
It is true (as Linda has pointed out) that when a dominant religion gets taken over by unscrupulous people out for power, it is bad. But that isn’t about religion, it is about bad people using religion to pursue their own agenda. It doesn’t have to be that way. Black churches played a big role in people’s lives and even expressed themselves politically, but they didn’t try to control the lives of everyone in this country.
History has shown that non-faith believers can be just as oppressive toward faith-believers. We saw that in the Soviet Union. But just because the Soviet Union warped Marxism or Socialism or Communism because unscrupulous people wanted to personally benefit from the power grab doesn’t mean that socialism or Marxism is by nature bad. There are democratic socialist countries that work well, too.
Some unions got taken over by bad people in the past. (I recently rewatched On the Waterfront and Serpico). And they oppressed their members and used that power to do bad things. But it was the people that were bad, not the very idea of unions.
NYCpsp,
“Why do you automatically associate religion with oppression?”
Partly because I grew up in the Catholic Church and its K-12 parochial school system. Saw it first hand and realized early on something wasn’t right, even though quite a few good things happened.
And what I have realized is that faith belief systems, whether religious or political, as per your examples, have resulted in millions of human beings being harmed/killed. Faith beliefs foster a sense that the absurd, the impossible, the mythological can be (sic) and should be glorified and accepted as fact. Utter nonsense! Faith belief sets people up to be used and abused by those “unscrupulous” people you talk about.
As Voltaire wrote: “Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” And that is the state of being for most in America these days.
The primary point about reparations that make people go apoplectic is to bring the concept of generational wealth into the discussion.
exactly
Bob and GregB that’s the thing about harms . . . they are generational. CBK
I am being quite specific here. The primary method by which ordinary people in America build wealth is via houses that people of one generation pay off and their children inherit. This is the major way in which GENERATIONAL wealth is built in the United States. For most of the 20th century, the federal government, state governments, and local governments in the United States had policies that made it extremely difficult for black people to purchase homes, pay them off, and pass them down.
Bob Are we making the same point? My point was that White benefits (including wealth), and Black harms were/are rooted in interrelated generational movements. CBK
Yes, I think so!
Documented facts about how Blacks were largely excluded from the New Deal, G.I. Bill, and pretty much anything prior to…well, not sure when cut off date is…or how the Fair Housing Act, ostensibly for all Americans, not only excluded Blacks, but was willfully violated with courts’ approval, would fall under outlawed CRT, I’m sure. Generational wealth is just another communist thing. (How many of the Oklahoma Sooners, to pick just one example, were non-white? And where did the authority to give the land away come from?)
Greg: historically, you raise an interesting question about Oklahoma. My authority, whom I met at the Pioneer Women’s Museum in Ponca City, told me a third of Oklahoma population was Blacks working as cowboys when it became a state in 1912. Not the picture of cowboys Hollywood put on the screen, but fascinating. That also raises the question of how that affected the rise of the Tulsa middle class that so enraged white supremacists in the riot.
Excellent point, Roy. There is an interesting history of Blacks in the West. But note, they were working, not owning.
NYS
I don’t disagree with Duane’s main points nor yours.
However, IMO, your argument requires inclusion of the fact that God talkers have used religion to suppress opposition to land owners through history e.g. in Ireland during the Great Hunger and in the plantation south. As a side note, an argument that introduces isolated abuses by worker collectives is flawed when it ignores proportional impact.
Protection of the right wing Catholic Church appears to be significant motivation for various entities. Those who doubt it, can review articles that focus on the politics of right wing religion and/or that focus on the enemies of public education. They will find a studious omission of the highly organized, well-funded and highly -placed right wing politicking associated with the American Catholic Church. Some may claim the purpose of the Pat Buchanan-popularized “culture war” campaign is to create a wedge issue that increases conservative religion’s power. The claim sets up the defense that those involved aren’t anti- woman and anti-Black. I believe the drivers of campaigns like anti-CRT are both.
When Diane can find one of the state Catholic Conference leaders who acknowledges the strengths of public education and posts that opinion at this blog and, when those leaders politic against taxpayer funding for Catholic schools, it will be a monumental retreat from a fascist direction advanced by theocracy.
For new readers, the almost 50 state Catholic Conferences are the political arm of the Catholic bishops.
Linda writes: “As a side note, an argument that introduces isolated abuses by worker collectives is flawed when it ignores proportional impact.”
My view is that, that’s the best thing Linda has ever written on this site.
Now, Linda, apply the principle when you write about the Catholic Church.
“For new readers,” Linda’s references to the “right wing” in the first part of her note sound fair enough to me. . . and then we get to what is the same old diatribe that, for years and in that context, can hardly be referred to as a “a side note” where Linda’s obvious religious and Catholic biases are concerned.
It’s the same principle that she makes us aware of in her note (quoted above) . . . even if true (and if you don’t catch the egregious omissions), some of it is, it’s all bad and no context, save for the lip service narrowing the field to the “right wing.”
For a different and more expansive view, see the online Catholic magazine: The Commonweal Magazine (.org). I always find the articles there rewarding reads on many counts. CBK
Reply to no one person in particular
63% of White Catholics who attend church regularly voted for Trump in 2020. The SCOTUS majority and the person credited with putting those jurists on the Court are conservative Catholic. While there is a pretense that Republican judges who advance religion with their decisions aren’t driven by religious zeal, I don’t believe it.
When (1) a Harvard Law professor and his university think it is appropriate for the public to accept statements about immigration preference for Catholics (2) an AG appointed by Trump and confirmed by the Senate says religion should be introduced at every opportunity (3) key players in the Jan. 6 insurrection call for one U.S. religion and are associated with the most politically powerful Republican donor in the country and (4) two key D.C. university influencers, both of the same religious sect have connections to that donor, a case for proportion is established.
CAP, an influential, purportedly Democratic organization opposes vouchers. The money to promote vouchers comes from some Republicans and DINO’s and influence decidedly comes from the political arm of the Catholic Church.
Thank you for this piece, Diane.
When I speak to people who attended private and public schools, they preferred their PUBLIC School experiences, NOT what they experienced in private schools. Their teachers were MUCHH BETTER in the PUBLIC Schools and they learned MORE, too.
Yvonne, the kids in public schools learned more about how to interact with kids different from themselves.
No doubt about that.
I was K-12 Catholic school educated and many common aspects of social life were not discussed nor exhibited.
So true…thank you, Diane
I loved every public school I ever went to through 9th grade. Learned lessons for life. Then three years at a Catholic school caused more so-called learning loss than pandemic-induced distance learning. Learned cautionary lessons about hypocrisy for life.
Thankfully, Owens understands the unique function public education provides in American society and ultimately governance as well. Public schools are democratic institutions under local governance. They tend to understand the needs of the communities they serve and serve those needs to the best of their ability.
” I believe in the American cultural and political environment the public school is best situated to offer the highest quality service for all and, most specifically, the poor. ”
One of the reasons public schools are under siege is because public schools in this country are now more than fifty percent minority. Privatization schemes, both charter and voucher schools, often target communities of color. Their goals are not usually inclusion, equity and accountability. Their goals are generally the opposite: segregation, inequity and little to no accountability, in addition to reckless profiteering at the expense of public schools. Privatized schools are far more segregated by design, and the result is achieved placing Black and Brown students in separate and unequal, often inferior schools. This is blatant discriminatory practice accepted by the government under the guise of so-called choice.
Privatization is invariably correlated with increased segregation. Private schools are allowed to ignore civil rights laws. They may exclude anyone they choose.
The propaganda for privatization has a phony veneer of “it’s for the kids, especially kids of color.” The voucher promoters ignore that the roots of their movement can be traced to the backlash against the Brown decision of 1954.
True, true, true, retired teacher.
I look at our public schools as national treasures. They are under siege, like our National Parks and Postal Service.
There’s more to these “sieges” than most can or are willing to see. Kinda like those libraries without hard print books and other hands-on printed materials. Scary.
On behalf of the frequent commenter here known as “Linda”, I protest this posting. If public schools reflect what conservative Christians believe the faithful should practice, then they are an unconstitutional blending of church and state. We know from Linda that religious sentiments are patriarchal, racist, transphobic, homophobic, hateful, sexist, and all the other pejorative -ist and -phobe nouns and adjectives. If traditional public schools are Christianity in practice, then such schools should be abolished for establishing a theocracy.
YEP!
In America, many if not most xtians just can’t help themselves in proclaiming an xtian virtue as the reason for secular institutions. They proclaim that their xtian faith beliefs come before the non-faith belief document the Constitution and should have priority over that secular document. I am not impressed with Owens’ xtian arguments.
Hi Duane I think Goff is right (if I understand him correctly) . . . If the threads of the meaning are recognizable and shared; and it’s the shared meaning, and not particular concepts, names, or even histories, that provides the empirical ground and unifying factors for both religious and secular institutions, and BTW for interreligious dialogue. The differences of meaning explored in civilized conversations is where problems can be further sorted out.
On a more personal note, Duane, please don’t equate all religious meaning with the “sky-daddy” thing, or whatever, as you seem to do in so many of your notes past. I find that really offensive.
And btw, about RSRP (Really Stupid Religious People), I have a couple of relatives who fit the sky-daddy mold that I’d like to introduce you to . . . we don’t talk much anymore . . . it’s never discussion or exploration with them. It’s all about propaganda and defensive justification of that same closed sky-daddy viewpoint. I have always liked you muchly, however. CBK
As you know I say it as I see it and I use the sky-daddy reference to show the inanity of the concept of a supposedly all powerful imaginary being that undergirds the three main religions practiced in America, Christianity, Judaism and Islam. And yes, by extension it also applies to any and all religious faith beliefs-what you call meaning.
Is using sky-daddy any different than you using RSRP to denigrate those others that don’t agree with your take on religious faith beliefs?
And, yes, generally I enjoy your incisive and thoughtful comments. We just disagree on faith beliefs and whether they are a virtue (you) or a vice (me).
Duane My apparently minor point is that, when you cut through the dogma, doctrine, histories, and institutions, it’s about, as you say, vices and virtues, which all we humans have a grand assortment of. CBK
Duane to your YEP! in response to Nathan’s:. “We know from Linda that religious sentiments are patriarchal, racist, transphobic, homophobic, hateful, sexist, and all the other pejorative […]”
Duane: We know nothing of the sort. (And Nathan is beginning to sound like a troll.) But that’s what I meant by a non-dialectical treatment: Stating all that is bad and nothing of the good is a fundamental method of propaganda and, . . . well . . . informs us more about the speaker/writer than the object of conversation.
BTW, those are ALL HUMAN TRAITS and not necessarily reserved for those who belong to religious institutions or who consider themselves religious as well as faithful. Whereas, you probably could say those same things with fewer reservations about white nationalists or fascists. I cannot believe this, however: that you and Linda actually said that or agreed with it . . . but then, there is my optimism raising its ugly head again. CBK
I do know that in our society one is expected, it’s even demanded, that we should “respect” those faith beliefs and not question or negatively comment about them.
For me that is an outrageous demand and I refuse to abide by it.
Duane I never said that criticism of any person or institution is off limits or should be. You seem to build up my views into extremes I have neither said nor think in terms of. Your notes are more about your assumptions and negative views than anything I have written or even implied or, again, even think. CBK
YES!
Nathan Poor Linda . . . who hasn’t learned to think dialectically; and whose religious bigotry, as usual and ironically, lends to her protest the smell a totalitarian attitude as bad as any religious zealot I have ever met. Linda’s note implies her (and your?) absolutist thought . . . it implies that a religious interpretation is THE only correct interpretation and (horror of horrors) must be so interpreted by all concerned or gotten rid of. Get a mirror, Linda.
Also, beyond my own ire at reading such culturally and historically uninformed statements, the United States is a secular culture, as in “separate” but not exclusionary. . . and so far, we don’t have thought police and can learn from our disagreements. (I keep learning the same thing about Linda.)
No one can tell a religious person not to recognize or refer to similarities of meaning, metaphor, analogies, manifestations, etc., in non-religious language or expressions of culture, e.g., the U.S. Constitution. Secularity means a shared, not an exclusive-to-Linda-like-thinking, ethos and culture.
To Linda: Go ahead and protest, . . . as with religious interpretations of the
Constitution, etc., you are free to do so, but as you say, it’s quite revealing of the views of the persons behind the protest. CBK
You know I love you, CBK, and we often agree. But the one thing I cannot accept is calling Linda’s viewpoint “bigotry.” You may not like it. You may not agree with it. But it is no way bigotry. Bigotry is based on implied misconceptions. Whether you agree with her or not, Linda has never, to my knowledge, stated a view without explaining why she has come to the conclusions she reaches and viewpoints she has.
Where I come in on this is your praise of her invocation of the word “proportional” above. And here is the one issue upon which you and I breach and I see not way to bridge it: at what point, in your view, does the serial, widespread, historical and possibly ongoing sexual abuse of boys, men, girls, and women as well as the institutional, global support of laws that marginalize the health of women, the destruction of democratic norms, and the imposition of faith on democratic-republican governing become “proportional” in an amount that is acceptable? Would this organization continue to exist if it did not claim the exceptionalism of formal religiosity? Or is the proportion low enough that it really doesn’t matter.
I will not accept you or anyone calling Linda or anyone else on this blog a bigot when they clearly explain why they think and act as they do. The bigots are the ones who are afraid of explaining or justifying their views with logical arguments that hold up.
GregB Well, that’s your definition (of bigotry), and not mine. Regardless, I think your point is a diversion; and I have explained my view here over and again where I assume you have paid some attention to it. I think there is a very big distinction that you and she, maybe others, fail to understand, which I have tried to explain many times, but apparently we cannot, at this point, get beyond it. I don’t know what’s keeping either of you from understanding what is clear to me, but I can only assume that some level of inherent defensiveness is standing in the way. In that, I cannot say more. So be it. But perhaps you could remain open to something that, as I see it, is much more than mere “disagreement.” CBK
One thing you’ve never addressed, CBK, despite all the words: is the Catholic Church a religious or criminal enterprise? And why do people like you minimize the murders, abuse, torture and other crimes that literally thousands upon thousands of priests, nuns, and deacons have perpetrated (and for which most have been held unaccountable). Not once in this post have you addressed that. Given what we know, would not any other institution that was responsible for such crimes been out of business a long time ago with all the perpetrators locked up to not be a threat to society.
GregB I feel the same way about such crimes as you or others here do, maybe worse. What surprises me, after all my time here, is that I would need to say so to you.
I also think you are a very selective reader. CBK
Greg
Catherine’s lane is demanding others revere/respect the Catholic Church. Other women who don’t and women who won’t adopt an acquiescent attitude about her view, are exposed to her public wrath.
Thank you for the prior tutorial that explained how silence gives license to escalation. It’s an important life lesson. And, I thank you for the counter to Catherine’s vitriol directed my way.
When I observe media’s kid glove treatment of the right wing politicking by the Catholic Church, I draw parallels with Catherine’s consuming tribalism. She praises herself for church criticism. But, she picks and chooses what is offensive/dangerous. As a corollary, she is also selective in her dismissal of issues e.g. the church’s overt discrimination against women.True to tribalists, those outside of the sect aren’t permitted to call out exploitation. If they do, they are labeled bigots. We are currently witnessing the Catholic Church’s use of the well-honed strategy.
If, in 2023, historians looked back and ranked the major threats to American democracy, one would be the direction of the courts under the influence of Leonard Leo. When simultaneously, a political axis was formed which included a Koch-funded network, conservative Catholic power brokers, and a somewhat disjointed band of conservative protestants led by false prophets, the direction toward authoritarianism and against freedom advanced.
I think you misread his article, Nathan. Public schools are secular. They educate children of any and every religious denomination. They do not indoctrinate. Religious schools indoctrinate. That is their purpose.
Catherine’s “poor Linda” diatribe… about that, I didn’t add comment to this thread until the day after I was referenced multiple times by other commenters, including Catherine.
For those who read this, please absorb that information. If any attribution to me ignores my repetitive use of the qualifier- conservative, right wing or Republican religion, it is false reporting. Nathan may merely be mistaken or his goal may be otherwise. Catherine is deliberate and chooses to use personal insults against me which I ignored for a long time until I understood that silence makes her escalate. IMO, she uses ingratiating language with Duane despite his views about religion. There is a critical difference between the focus of my comments and Duane’s. I single out the right wing politicking of the Catholic Church. Until weaponized religion took away the rights of Americans, I was mute about religion and I was wrong. LBGTQ and women are discriminated against in right wing churches.
If in 2023, Black people were overtly treated the same way in those institutions, the general public would not be mute and, I will not be mute.
Linda writes: “Until weaponized religion took away the rights of Americans, I was mute about religion and I was wrong. LBGTQ and women are discriminated against in right wing churches.”
I don’t remember your being “mute” about that before; however, I think you are right in this . . . there is a poisonous and powerful right-wing strain in the Churches at present . . . but not only there.
But the timing between “before and after” that you point to is important to this and other discussions.
For instance, “getting a good general education at Catholic schools” is part of a long-time and well-deserved reputation that was forged long before the power grabs we see today and that were seeded and “bloomed out” in the last century. (Fortunately, the SCOTUS abortion fiasco really did “wake” the people up.)
But before, drawing from my experience at the time, state supported secular education lived well and in a good tension in the field with Catholic ed, Montessori, etc. Public education was not threatened as it is today, . . . until White Nationalism, the unelected rich with their PACS, and the privatization movements came along, complements of the oligarchy and their “politics makes good bedfellows” relationship with the extreme right wing of the Catholic and other churches, and their particular kind of power brokering emerged.
I think the broader context is the political and not the religious as such situation . . . the unelected pocket protectors who politicize and so “weaponize” their wealth and are able to pay professional sophists (advertising) to propagandize “the people” or like Betsy DeVos who can only see through their ideological lenses, even if some are also “Catholic.”
The takeaway is that the perspective of “before and after” here is important to a fuller understanding of the matter.
And Linda, if you think my calling out your bias against the Catholic Church and religion in general is inordinate, I happen to disagree, especially when such bias turns into anti-religious propaganda and tries to hide behind the smokescreen of the “impersonal.” CBK
Linda Did someone ask you to be “mute”? I didn’t. CBK
Catherine– OT, but “unelected pocket protectors” cracked me up!
I am ready to steal it as soon as I have the reference down. To me [long married to an engineer], this has always meant ’60s-era nerdy stuffed-shirt engineers with the black-frame glasses & pens lined up neatly in said item. [Especially the GE guys, then in Schenectady.] How do you mean it?
bethree5 Oh, yes, I am old enough the remember the earlier reference to nerdy engineers and their “pocket protectors,” but I thought it appropriate to use it here to refer, basically, to the greedy rich among us — you know, the ones who purchase 10 yachts while also paying our representatives to vote against basic social services for the poor, for children, and for the older Americans among us, not to mention environmental protections . . . the list is endless. . . . I wonder what it’s like to own a Representative? CBK
Got! It’s a wonderful double entendre.
I see public schools as the embodiment of democratic principles that are secular, but accepting and welcoming to all students that enter their doors. My perspective comes from my many years working with vulnerable ELLs. I am proud and humbled by the ‘extra mile’ the district and teachers went to in order help these students get a quality education.
Am I the only person who thought this post tried (not very well) to use sarcasm?
Because that is NOT an accurate characterization of what Linda is saying, nor is it an accurate characterization of “what conservative Christians believe the faithful should practice.”
Was there a point to this comment that went over my head?
NYC public school parent HA! I hope you are right that the Linda note was meant as sarcasm. If so, then the world will feel a bit better to me. (And that’s probably why it sounded so trollish and, citing my optimism, I couldn’t believe it in the first place). CBK
I would argue public education is the essential element of a just society, whether one has direct connections with it or not. Every western industrialized democratic-republic has a good public education system as a cornerstone of their societies. Unhealthy ones don’t. Hence the attack by narrow interests to destroy ours.
Agree, GregB.
Amen, Greg
Owens’ words, as used to be said of President Lincoln, ought to be engraved in marble–outside every public school in America.
For Duane–I would say Owens’ references to Christianity are intended as insights or explanations of how he is prompted to believe in public schools’ egalitarian framework–not imperatives for the rest of us to obey.
That was my reading as well, Thomas.
“I believe public schools are most valuable as a tool to lessen human suffering on the poor–one of the primary, and possibly only, ends of good governance. . . and more broadly the question of “what is the purpose of education” usually falls into two categories–socialization and skill acquisition.”
No, they are not “most valuable as a tool to lessen human suffering on the poor.”
Why not? Because as the purpose of PUBLIC education, not just the “purpose of education,” as delineated by the states’ constitutions show the two main purposes as “to benefit the individual” and also to ensure that the state will continue as the guiding polity, with the first being used as justification more than the latter.
Public education is not meant to “lessen human suffering” but to help the individual fulfill their own destiny, to their own level and desire as determined by the individual and their parents. Saving people through supposedly lessening human suffering is an xtian concept which relies on the faith belief of humans having original sin and/or are fundamentally flawed instead of viewing each human being as an individual with their own wants, needs and desires.
Now can a lessoning of human suffering be a consequence of public education? No doubt, but to throw that burden onto the public schools is asking for the impossible and follows the thinking that the public schools can be the “cure” for all of societal ills. It can’t and to believe it can is to set the public schools up for utter failure.
Keep your thoughts of salvation in the churches where it originates.
Your sword is drawn against the sea, Duane. In general, only young people can learn to grow beyond long-held superstitions. Those who cling to superstitions that they were indoctrinated in decades before will almost always find rationalizations in order to continue to hold onto these, in whatever attenuated or rationalized. People find this stuff extremely comforting. That said, it’s important for those of us who reject outright this nonsense from the infancy of our species to continue to speak out, to make it clear that not everyone in the 21st century for Lord Thor’s sake believes in invisible friends.
Also, the strangest things could be true, though we haven’t sufficient warrant for them to justify accepting them as true. For example, it is POSSIBLE that we are living in a simulation created by those who are our ancestors, and it is possible that there was some creator of all this beyond our understanding or knowledge. BUT, ofc, none of THOSE strange truths would resemble IN THE SLIGHTEST the bodies of superstition cooked up by semi-savages thousands of years ago and persisting unto today.
And, finally, I’ve known some great individuals who professed to be Christians. So, there’s that, too.
I just wish that when people start talking about their invisible friends, they would flat out admit that they are being WILDLY speculative and haven’t much if any actual warrant for their speculations. A little honesty about these unfounded assertions would be nice for a change.
cx: in whatever attenuated or rationalized form
cx: a simulation created by those for whom we are distant ancestors
That’s just it Bob, they talk with ‘god given’ (to themselves at least) assurance that the sky daddy is as real as the nose on their face.
IKR? And then the same religions say, Thou shalt not lie.
Bob writes on his otherwise informative and inspiring webpage:
“We do not have access to noumena, to ultimate realities, to things as they are in themselves. We have access only to our limited perceptions of them (to phenomena) and to what we can puzzle out about the innate structures of our own experiencing (what Kant calls Categories). The differing perceptual and cognitive setups of creatures different from us teach us that we don’t have the full access pass, lol.”
Though Kant had some good ideas about ethics, his bad cognitional/reality ideas are still hanging around in our thinking eaves . . . it was and still is based on the ocular model of knowing the real . . .bad cognitional theory. I wouldn’t spread it around any more if I were you. I loved reading your earlier page link here, however. CBK
Ocular, no, though certainly the visual is the major sensory path by which we know the world as we know it. But, rather, this knowing is via ALL our methods of perception, including all those discussed by Michael Cohen in this book:
Various counts give between 50 and 80 senses, including internal senses such as nociception (sense of pain) and equilibrium and hunger and a LOT of items people generally don’t think about when they think of the category of “senses,” such as sense of personal space, sense of recognizable form, sense of time passing, libido, etc.
Saying that we know the world by these means is hardly “bad cognitional/reality ideas.” Do you imagine that there is some OTHER means by which we know the world than via these external and internal senses? If so, please do drag me out of my darkness and enlighten me. One cannot accept a facile distinction between that which belongs to the realm of thought and that which belongs to the realm of the senses, which was the ancient distinction, for that which belongs to the realm of thought is simply other senses (see below), supplemented by methods of processing senses.
And, as I argue in this essay, these MANY sensory modalities by which we experience the world are all filters, with particular attributes, and do not render unto us some base reality as it actually is, some set of things in themselves, which was precisely Kant’s point about the noumena verses phenomena. If you have some argument that blasts away this Kantian distinction, please do share. A place among the pantheon of great philosophers awaits you.
Bob I was going to offer a more thorough answer, until you got to the sarcasm at the end of your note. Pulleese . . . . spare me.
Of course, there are different “senses” of the term sense. But science cannot rest on the multitude and spread of common dictionary definitions.
Usually in common language, even the term “seeing” as in “I see,” is interchangeable with the intelligent activities of understanding. The refined and relevant distinction is between senses, as seeing, hearing, touch, taste, smell, and the intelligibility of everything we see and question and, in many cases cases, understand and know.
But I should not have opened this discussion here. It’s for a different venue. CBK
A beautiful and fascinating line of inquiry that you have opened here, Catherine. Sorry about the snark. Again, my feelings about that are related to the ways in which ancient montheistic supersitition is being used, right now, to drag us backward into barbarism by the Fascist right.
I do not agree that this is the wrong venue. This has proven to be a venue for those who wish to push beyond received notions of many kinds. In general, I have little but loathing for people who, DeSantislike, wish to limit speech. I am not saying that you are like that. But the “It’s for a different venue” is censorship-adjacent.
Bob You are assuming facts not in evidence.
But I suggested “wrong venue” for the practical reason, and in my experience, most that I am aware of don’t have the background for or even want such discussions . . . (philosophy for some induces sleep). Though philosophy is foundational to all, discussion of it, especially theoretical discussions, are relatively specialized. Blogs are commonly for shorter notes. And it’s Diane’s blog . . . about education, which is of course related, but different, and much more interesting to most here, at least. CBK
And, ofc, consciousness is different IN KIND from “the material” as envisioned by materialists. This is a BIG clue, seems to me.
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/philosophical-zombies-with-chairs-in-philosophy-of-mind-or-confessions-of-a-neo-dualist/
Bob I have to set aside your link for later reading, but sensible “material” is also intelligible, . . . we ask of it “what.” (I have a time for such reading, so I will get to it.) CBK
And thanks, CBK, for giving my essay a read. Really appreciate that!
To All: I highly recommend Bob’s webpage . . . a good read, indeed, save the references to Kant’s philosophy. CBK
Haaaa! I admit it, CBK. I am a Kantian. And thank you so much. Even when we disagree, as we sometimes do, I so enjoy discussing and even debating with you. You are a good person. That’s what matters in my book.
Oops. Forgot a link. Cohen:
As you will see from my essay, CBK, I do not preclude AT ALL that base reality might be something like what is envisioned by patheists and panentheists, a notion I SPECULATIVELY ascribe to, for various reasons related to the fact that modern science has rendered notions of a deterministic Lucretian/LaPlacean universe untenable. I would have good fun debating Duane about this, just as I have good fun debating with those who cling to rationalized/attenuated/often barely recognizable versions of ancient Monotheistic Abrahamic systems of superstitition.
Were Martin Luther King Junior’s deeply held religious beliefs (the underpinning of his activism) based on “invisible friends”?
Why are people on this blog so condescending to those of us who are believers? Why attack us? Please, just let us alone.
Montana teacher asks: “Why are people on this blog so condescending to those of us who are believers? Why attack us? Please, just let us alone.”
I cannot answer that question fully but I think, in part, it’s because so many see the worst-case-scenarios among believers (who deserve what they get, in my view) but then broad brush all with the same worst-case ideas and worn out bumper-sticker banalities that, my guess is, they use to run interference for their own unwillingness to think beyond them (aka: self-imposed stupidity).
But who needs you or me, or the kinds of people that you and I are quite aware of, and who don’t fit their shallow and preconceived ideas about “religious people”. . . when they can set up strawmen in their own minds and arguments, then set upon their victims at will down by the railroad tracks with tar and feathers, regardless, e.g., we are all “sky daddy” people.
The funny thing is, just like the RSRP’s among us, they keep thinking as they do regardless of the arguments or evidence against such really shallow ways of thinking. For me, it’s the same as talking to my own RSRP relatives . . . for years and nothing changes. (RSAU–Really Stupid Among Us)
As a personal aside, I finally “ghosted” or banned one of my out-of-state “religious” relatives from calling or writing; and a thoughtful friend said I should “forgive” and just move on. I said that I have forgiven her . . . for YEARS of pleading with me to “just accept Jesus”. . . or else I was going to hell. (The least of the worst is that she is so utterly boring.)
The problem is not that I cannot forgive, but that she will not quit. Its almost always about that and nothing else . . . and it always lurks. Who needs the empty interiors of AI when you already have THAT as your correspondent?
But as you seem to understand, closed mindedness is a human thing, a daily problem for us all, I think; and not reserved only for religious people. It’s not all bad here on this blog, of course, but it’s a lurking presence on this and other blogs and comes forward almost daily. I have often thought that there is a straight and unbroken line of increasing extremism that goes back to the psychological malaise that was so evident in the Salem witch trials.
BTW, I could give a good philosophical argument for the “invisibility” issue here, and not only about religious meaning. For instance, most if not all qualified scientific evidence is intelligible but not visible, though it commonly begins with sensing. Rather, as it leaves visible descriptions and enters explanatory modes it’s about forms, orders, and relationships, all of which scientists work hard to understand with their intelligence and not with their eyes. We don’t ask questions and understand anything by merely looking at it, and none of the above are visible or products of merely seeing or otherwise sensing; they are aka: invisible.
So the real world is intelligible and we meet it with our intelligence. Though I think many of the criticisms of RSRP are well-grounded for SOME of us who gather their attention by being loud, Bob (God love him) and others will have to find another point besides invisibility to critique religious thought. CBK
Montana (and Bob). My response to your note went to moderation. CBK
Martin Luther King Jr’s theology was very liberal. In papers he wrote during his time at Crozer Theological Seminary he made his views clear. He said that the evidence for the Virgin Birth is “is too shallow to convince any objective thinker.” He stripped the doctrines of the divine sonship of Christ, the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of all literal meaning, saying, “we [could] argue with all degrees of logic that these doctrines are historically and [philosophically] untenable.” In another paper he wrote:
[A] supernatural plan of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary theory of the atonement, and the second coming of Christ are all quite prominent in fundamentalist thinking. Such are the views of the fundamentalist and they reveal that he is oppose[d] to theological adaption to social and cultural change. … Amid change all around he is willing to preserve certain ancient ideas even though they are contrary to science.
–Joshua Horn
As Horn points out in that excerpt I just posted, King was an extremely unorthodox Christian who rejected a great number of notions that most Christians consider central to the faith. He is one of my great heroes, a true profile in courage.
Montana Teacher’s view is dangerous. He/she willingly ignores SCOTUS’ decision to demand taxpayer money for funding of schools that preach religion. He/she ignores that SCOTUS exempted from civil rights employment law the organizations (religious schools as a start) of the nation’s
3rd largest employer. Taxpayers have been forced by Republican lawmakers to fund private social service organizations, positioning Catholic organizations as the 3rd largest U.S.employer.
Montana Teacher feels her religious “freedom,” as a political position, creates the authority to enact law that takes away birth control or whatever else the religious right demands.
He/she doesn’t understand weaponized religion because her/his mind won’t expand to go there.
I don’t know what type of school he/she teaches in but, I hope Montana is teaching in a field far removed from American principles.
I think that you are attributing beliefs, stances, attitudes to this person that he or she did not evince, Linda. However, you list many of the things that convince me that it is LONG past time to throw off these superstitions. They have a LOT of ugliness inherent to them. Slavery is approved or taken as given not once or twice but MANY times in the library of books known as the Bible, as are lots of other horrors that make this ancient belief system appealing to extremist rightwing authoritarian types. Better to throw it over, free the mind of these manacles. For me, raised in a fundamentalist church, it was exactly that.
Montana: You didn’t know that Linda was a mind reader, did you. But just remember that she IS impersonal. CBK
Montana teacher,
“Why are people on this blog so condescending to those of us who are believers? Why attack us? Please, just let us alone.”
So it’s condescending to point out the absurdities of religious (or political) faith beliefs. My initial reaction to your post is to laugh. . . and cry at the fact that you don’t understand that no one is attacking you nor is anyone not leaving you alone. You’re the one taking my statement personally. When have I referenced your beliefs. . . hell, I don’t even know them. But as a generality if they are religious faith beliefs not founded in reality, well. . . go ahead and take it as an attack, you have my permission (sic).
Throughout history, even today, faith believers have more than religiously let the infidels know that their thoughts are not to be tolerated and many millions have died because of that way of being.
Yep, I’m a strident infidel who doesn’t sit quietly anymore while the religious faith believers spew their utter nonsense forcing those beliefs onto the political processes in this country, and that still cause many harms and deaths.
I agree with you Duane.
Bob, what is the alternative explanation for Montana telling us to leave his/her religion alone while what is happening is that other people’s rights are being taken away by the judicial and legislative bulldozer of theocracy?
Is it that, Montana has no way of knowing what’s going on? We’ve all heard that excuse given in the worst of abuses. I prefer to think a person has agency, especially a person who has been given the privilege of teaching.
Duane [@2/16 12:00 pm]– Nah, that doesn’t do it for me. You’re painting all people who believe in God as fools with those expressions— when what you mean to do is express ire at those who now [and in the past] shove their religion down other people’s throats [or worse], using brute power/ the power of the state [& harassment, smarmy superiority, presumptuousness, et al]
Montana, I think you miss the point. Perhaps intentionally. Condescension is not our goal. Separation is. Pluralist democratic-republican governance cannot exist on a foundation of embedded with formal religiosity, regardless of the formal religion. That is because formal religions have “truths” that do not conform with the “truths” of other religions or the “questions” of humanists or atheists. And in a pluralistic democratic-republican society there is no room for such definitive “truths” which all distill into a form of determinism. This is fundamentally at odds with the idea of a secular, Constitution-based ethics which is ironically based on the Biblical Luke 6:31. Look it up, fellow heathens.
To add my bit to Duane’s and Ginny’s discussion, whether one thinks religions are good or not, their institutions and doctrines should have absolutely nothing to do with our governing processes. Ridicule may not be constructive, but elevation of faith to direct governing is more destructive.
When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.
People are just going to have to get used to the fact that religiosity is no longer, for a large and growing number of people, the default mode network, and such people don’t have respect for ideas that they find, frankly, childish.
Bob Where is your mind? Have you ever read the New Testament?
I don’t see the problem as one of religiosity, but as an inability to read a text for both its place in human history or for the enduring principles that flow through it. 99 percent of us know all about the terrible stuff that’s in the Bible. But here is an example of what I keep on my kitchen wall so that I can remain aware of my many failures: English translation New King James Version:
First Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love
I am only a resounding gong or clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy,
and can understand all mysteries and all knowledge,
and though I have faith, that can move mountains,
but have not love,
I am nothing.
3 And though I give all I possess to the poor,
and surrender my body to the flames,
but have not love,
I gain nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind;
love does not envy;
love does not parade itself,
is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely,
does not seek its own, is not provoked,
thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity,
but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things,
believes all things,
hopes all things,
endures all things. . . .
8 Love never fails.
But whether there are prophecies,
they will fail;
whether there are tongues,
they will cease;
whether there is knowledge,
it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part
and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part
will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child,
I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man,
I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I shall know
just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love.
Hello Bob My just-written response also went into moderation. It’s apparently about the length. So on the wings of brevity, here’s a shorter version:
Bob, (“Childish?”) Where is your mind? Have you ever read the New Testament? Or maybe you are just listening to all those really stupid religious people . . . and ONLY them.
I don’t see the problem, however, as one of religiosity, but as an inability to read a text for both its place in human history or for the enduring principles that flow through it (ANY religious text). My guess is that 99 percent of all Christians are quite aware of the terrible stuff that’s in the Bible. But here is an example of what I keep on my kitchen wall so that I can remain aware of my many failures:
I cut what I quoted in the “in moderation” note which was from the English translation New King James Version: of First Corinthians 13. CBK
I have read, Catherine, not only the New Testament, in many translations, but also most of the 200 or so noncanonical gospels, acts, and epistles from the first couple hundred years after Christ.
Bob I guess I just don’t understand how you could have read all that (and I thought before you probably had) and still use the term “childish” to refer to a person’s religiosity. I know that a “certain” group in most if not all religious domains who, while not as bad as Jim Jones’ followers, seem to have never left their childhood Bible stories behind (my relatives, for one); but that’s only a sliver of what it means to be involved in a religious life and community. So your comment really baffled me. CBK
I say that this stuff is childish because, Catherine, I actually do understand a LOT about the historical development of this stuff. I know the outlandish beliefs on which Christianity was initially FORMALLY instituted and how, over the centuries, as these became increasingly untenable, people backed further and further away from them until all that’s left for most today is a religion that I would call Vaguism AND crazy Evangelicals and rightwing Catholics who actually still believe the ludicrous, childish stuff about virgin births and Original Sin and hell and so on. And I also know enough about other near Eastern religions and about neoPlatonism to be wise to how the authors of the canonical New Testament simply smooshed together a whole lot of nutty beliefs that were current in other religions in the Near East at the time when this stuff was cooked up. In the face of what scholars now actually know about this stuff, it is completely astonishing to me that there are people who still call themselves Christians. The man (not God), if he ever existed (I suspect that he did) Yeshua was nothing of what people believe of him, which is the stuff of fairytales and mythologies, and prechristian ones at that.
Because I have studied this history extensively (I was raised in a fundamentalist church and have had a lifelong scholarly fascination with religions), I know how the sausage was made. LOL.
But I do appreciate, CBK, that you have pulled away from, do not ascribe to, any sort of fundamentalism.
Bob FYI: That’s a very big slice of humanity in our time. CBK
Yes. The Pew studies on Religion in America show that vast numbers of Americans practice a religion of Vaguism that they still refer to as Christianity. They don’t believe in Virgin Births or golden cities in the sky or hell and the devil or Original Sin or predestination but they do believe in stuff like astrology and reincarnation and still call themselves Christians. LOL. If find this alternately amusing and horrifying. Why horrifying? Because these are prior restraints upon thought that lead to a whole lot of fuzziness and confusion. Mind-forged manacles, Blake called them.
Bob Sigh . . . . CBK
And yes, there is wisdom in some of this ancient wisdom literature. But my agreeing with Homer about craftsmanship and appreciating the artfulness of his (collectively) work, doesn’t make me go around saying that I am a believer in Greek religion.
If I did that, it would be childish of me, wouldn’t it?
These are stories that ancient people told themselves based on the mores and understandings of their times. Period. They have zero use as science or metaphysics.
Bob Of course the Bible is not scientific . . . good grief. I think you are still addressing the really stupid religious people among us and not anything seriously religious. It IS, however part of our religious history which cannot be unwoven from the rest of our history, or the history of other religions. To try to do that would seriously distort history itself. CBK
But recognizing it as part of our history is insufficient for calling oneself a Chrisitan. That’s my point. I thought I had been quite clear about that. Greek literature is an extremely important part of our history that influenced a LOT in our culture over the centuries. But that isn’t warrant for calling oneself a believer in Greek religion (something for which we don’t even have a clear name).
Bob Well . . . one thing I have learned over my life is when the conversation turns to a game of whack-a-mole. Back to work. CBK
And I never said that their only merit was in their “use.,” did I?
These stories have use, ofc, to the history of ideas but negligible use AS HISTORY. In general, as purported history, they are just terrible and often ridiculous.
Bob So you think the New Testament is a bunch of stories that have “use”? CBK
The New Testament is a bunch of stories like any other stories told by peoples around the globe. And, of course, it is a TINY fragment of the Christian writings from which Irenaeus and others derived the canon appearing there.
Use and value; but you should not be so disparaging of the “uses” of stories, CBK.
The mythologies of the ancient Hindus are also rich. The Ramayana, the Mahabharata, the Vedas, the Upanishads.
As for reading these texts in historical context, I am ALL FOR THAT.
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2022/05/15/why-is-christianity-so-weird/
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2021/12/24/on-the-morning-of-christs-nativity-1-bob-shepherd/
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/poetry/history-lesson-or-on-the-hinterweltlern/
https://bobshepherdonline.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/ideas-matter-exhibit-1-the-horrific-legacy-of-christian-neo-platonism/
Bob I’ve responded twice, one long, one short, and they both went to the BIG M. Here’s a one-paragraph snip.
“I don’t see the problem as one of religiosity, but as an inability to read a text for both its place in human history or for the enduring principles that flow through it (ANY religious text). My guess is that 99 percent of all Christians are quite aware of the terrible stuff that’s in the Bible. But here is an example of what I keep on my kitchen wall so that I can remain aware of my many failures: (Quote) CBK
GregB writes: “Ridicule may not be constructive, but elevation of faith to direct governing is more destructive.”
Greg: Do you think that’s what Owens was trying to do or even considering?
. . . elevating faith to DIRECT governing? (as in a secular democratic state, e.g., the United States?) Or me or others here, for that matter?
OR are you, missing something very big . . . and merely setting up another straw-man argument to defend the ridicule and dismissive attitudes, by comparison, that exist on this blog about any religion, or a regard for one’s own?
What I saw, and what jumped off the page in reading Owens’ note, was the term “common grace.” Here is the snip:
“To put it concisely: I believe in the American cultural and political environment the public school is best situated to offer the highest quality service for all and, most specifically, the poor. I believe this is known, in my faith tradition, as common grace.”
My thought is that Owens puts his finger on what is truly transcendent about democracy and, in our case, the general drift of our founding documents and events (like the U.S. Constitution), even with all its very human and concrete failures; or to put it in more secular but older language with regard for the poor, a common purpose towards “raising all boats.”
But no–secular/democratic institutions cannot share principles? We cannot look under the specific language and identify common meanings? My view is that Owens inadvertently points to a serious philosophical (and so educational) problem. But read Be3 above and my note about the Salem witch trials. There is so much fear going on in both religious and secular circles, I wonder sometimes if any good principles will ever prevail . . . .
BTW, this is related: I appreciated your “I love you” note earlier. I share it and think that this sense comes from just having been around someone in discussions for a good while. We have that. But a related case in point with Linda (from our earlier correspondence) is that, I genuinely like Duane, even though I abhor that sky daddy thing and even the attitude that it flows from; but to Linda, I am merely schmoozing him (or whatever she said about my notes to him). So I cannot even say I like someone without getting “tagged” as being disingenuous.
Also, while we’re at it, if I referred to the religious bigotry that comes through in Linda’s notes, I meant it (and said so in my note) in relation to her channeling of propagandist methods by constant and egregious omissions (as you and others here do). When I read and “hear” the tone in her notes, I feel like, if she were present, we could see the blood dripping from her teeth, her constant portrayal is of a vehement anti-Catholic/religion. The method is to use very real but partial truths to hide omissions that are so very obvious, in this case, to me and to many others. (BTW, I also think Leo is a monster who seems to have forgotten all that is good in the New Testament.)
By example, how much can we say that is so totally, concretely and even systematically wrong with our own democracy and ourselves in it. . . but we still want to keep it and try to cure it while we live in the good we and our children can gain from it . . . over generations. . . . this, even though there are so many (like Leo in the Catholic Church), who are trying to make it defunct and destroy it by their abuses of its fundamental meaning, or as Owen regards, its common grace, i.e., shared principles. CBK
GregB writes: “Ridicule may not be constructive, but elevation of faith to direct governing is more destructive.” (Greg: my longer response went to moxxatxxon. Below is a snip:
Do you think Owens is trying to elevate faith to DIRECT government in a secular democracy? Or me or others here, for that matter? OR are you, missing something very big . . . and merely setting up another straw-man argument to defend the ridicule and dismissive even hateful attitudes, by comparison, that exist on this blog about any religion, or a regard for one’s own?
What I saw, and what jumped off the page in reading Owens’ note, was the term “common grace.” It’s not the words, but the underlying meaning that points to the shared principles between a secular democracy and what he is talking about from our Biblical past. Here is the snip:
“To put it concisely: I believe in the American cultural and political environment the public school is best situated to offer the highest quality service for all and, most specifically, the poor. I believe this is known, in my faith tradition, as common grace.” CBK
CBK,
“I think you are still addressing the really stupid religious people among us and not anything seriously religious.”
Really, I mean. . . I mean. . . REALLY!
How does it feel to be the Top Inquisitress of not only everyone else’s beliefs but xtian scriptural ‘serious’ dogma? Amazing that you have that level of discernment. How did you come about that level?
Go back to work, Duane. CBK
Don’t worry, CBK, I’ll be on the river in a few weeks for a few weeks and nary a peep from me shall you hear. 🙂
Duane, why are you here commenting when you could be participating in the Ashbury Revival?
Our minister mentioned Sunday that she had been to the Asbury revival.
Because I’d probably get lynched. . . ya know. . . for being too strident of an infidel who doesn’t sit quietly while the religious faith believers spew their utter nonsense.
Not to mention I am attending funeral services for the dad of a good friend of over 50 years (we met, oh no, while in a Catholic all-boys high school-irony abounds in this thread).
Duane [@ 2/15 3:07pm]– I nominate this for BEST COMMENT IN THREAD.
You put your finger right on what I felt was a bit off with Owens’ post. It only makes sense in the context of our society with its outrageous rich-poor gap & high child poverty– which then haplessly smacks at the gaping holes in the “safety net,” using the last-bastion public good– the [overburdened] schools– via free meals and a fingers-crossed promise to poor kids they may make it beyond a min-wage life [$500 away from bankruptcy at any given moment] with a pubsch ed.
Totally missing the point [as you note] of what a K12 ed really is, and its benefits to society, which is why we do it. A society with a huge national economy that has to be dragged kicking & screaming into funding a solid pubsch K12 ed by appealing to its sense of good Christian charity to the poor– that’s a society that already pays no attention to its poor.
Public schools are a marvelous thing. They aren’t always the best choice for everyone, but it’s a wonderful thing that they exist. Especially because if they didn’t exist already, it’s not at all clear that we would create them now.
Having said that, I’ll see myself out and allow the regular commenters to get on with their discussion of how America is a white supremacist nation.
Please be more specific in your sneering. Which “regular commenter” discussed “how America is a white supremacist nation” in the comments at this post about evangelical Christian Stephen Owens and his essay about public schools?
I must have missed it. I guess I was distracted by one regular commenter’s regular sneering at the people who post on this blog.
You never even notice how often all of us “regular commenters” you sneer at have disagreements, sometimes minor and sometimes large. But what we do have in common is the willingness to engage in the discussion. Sneering and throwing shade and linking to right wing anti-CRT twitter posts that mischaracterize some dedicated, perfectly nice educator trying to make this country less racist is not engaging in a discussion. It is trolling.
Public schools may not be the best choice for everyone. But why should you or I or the public pay for religious indoctrination of other people’s children? Their parents have the right to make that choice, but why should the public pay for it? I don’t want to pay for Jewish schools that don’t teach English or science. I don’t want to pay for schools that don’t admit people who are of a different faith. I don’t want to pay for schools that discriminate against students who are gay or have gay parents. Nor do I think the public should pay the tuition for kids who go to exclusive private schools. Do you, FLERP?
Taxpayer money is routinely used to pay tuition at private post secondary schools, including religiously affiliated ones like Notre Dame and Yeshiva University.
True of higher education. Not true of K-12. Although the Supreme Court seems ready to have all of us pay tuition for religious indoctrination.
Hello Diane Such a difference between teaching and learning (a) about, for instance, the history of race in the United States, the women’s movement, different kinds of political systems, like democracy, kingships, or fascism, for instance; or again, and stressing the ABOUT here, religious movements and meaning, warts and all . . . it’s impossible to teach history well and leave out the influence of any of these issues including religion . . . and (b) indoctrination into this or that viewpoint and way of life.
With that in mind, one of the problems I see in much of the public’s recent response to teaching about racial history is just this difference, again, between (a) teaching ABOUT, and (b) indoctrination or even propaganda. This lack of understanding is even more heated where teaching ABOUT religious movements in history is concerned.
It seems to me that the educational movements that came after two world wars, especially WWII, were at least potential to cure remnants of tribal consciousness, and so to ingrain the import of democracy and the peace it can bring in and among nations and our people, at least here in the US.
It did for some, but apparently not for a sizable number of others, and we are suffering from that missed opportunity as we speak. Until and unless parents, teachers, politicians, and even religious leaders consciously grasp this huge difference, I doubt much will change. CBK
TE– Private colleges are supported primarily by their own endowment funds and students’ tuition fees. Tax support is a small part of their budget, mainly research grants. Although obviously they benefit from the fed stud-loan program: is that what you’re referring to?
Bethree5,
Most colleges and universities, public and private, depend on tuition to pay the bills. The average open admission private university gets $700 a year from their endowment. That is not nearly enough to pay the facility. They depend on Pell grants.
My public university gets a billion dollars in research grants, the bulk from NIH. It is not a small percentage of our expenditure.
See https://collegeaffordability.urban.org/cost-of-educating/endowments/#/income_from_endowments
The comments on this post by so many regular commenters reflect why this blog is so incredible. There is a fair amount of disagreement in this discussion, but the regulars are ENGAGING. I know many of the posts here are long, but that is good! Engaging can’t happen with a short, sneering comment that tells us that the person just wants to troll.
I love to read some of the longest comments, even if I disagree, because I respect that you want to to help bring light to the issue. And it makes me understand your reasons for having your POV even if I disagree.
So just saying thank you to everyone. This post demonstrates how good it is when people who disagree engage. It’s a shame we live in a country where half the country is engaging among themselves – having big disagreements and small ones – about government priorities and choices. While the Republicans essentially sit there and troll.
Just curious- Catherine’s 2:45 comment on 2-15-2023 viewed from this commenter’s position?
Linda,
I posted this above (although easy to miss). I think some commenter (perhaps a troll) named Nathan Godfrey yesterday presented what seemed to me to be a mischaracterization of your views – even citing you by name. I didn’t think it was at all accurate and I thought it was designed to intentionally provoke responses, at your expense.
And I thought Catherine at that comment was responding to Nathan Godfrey, but erroneously presenting it as if YOU had said those things and harshly criticizing you for it. Duane actually responded positively to the Nathan Godfrey comment, but with his own views, which like yours are far more nuanced than what Nathan Godfrey wrote.
I definitely believe that what Nathan did was wrong, and seemed intentionally designed to hurt you. I wish Catherine had realized that and that the 2:45 comment had left your name completely out because she wasn’t responding to anything you had said, she was responding to Nathan Godfrey’s views, not yours. And that was not fair to you at all. When Catherine responded to your REAL comment today, it was more of the discussion I was referring to that I like.
Linda, I always find your comments enlightening and I always appreciate that you take the time to present a fact-based argument for them. And in the last year or two I thought your comments got even better, as if you were considering some of the points other people were making, and making your arguments even sharper. Thank you and so glad you keep posting.
NYC
With open minds, readers will understand the origin of the threat and what is at stake based on the evidence in Iowa. Comment added below.
Diane and Montana My earlier comment that went into moderation is still in moderation. I’m reposting, but it will probably not show up, and now it’s “out of whack” with what’s ongoing in the arguments anyway. CBK
Montana teacher asks: “Why are people on this blog so condescending to those of us who are believers? Why attack us? Please, just let us alone.”
I cannot answer that question fully but I think, in part, it’s because so many see the worst-case-scenarios among believers (who deserve what they get, in my view) but then broad brush all with the same worst-case ideas and worn out bumper-sticker banalities that, my guess is, they use to run interference for their own unwillingness to think beyond them (aka: self-imposed stupidity).
But who needs you or me, or the kinds of people that you and I are quite aware of, and who don’t fit their shallow and preconceived ideas about “religious people”. . . when they can set up strawmen in their own minds and arguments, then set upon their victims at will down by the railroad tracks with tar and feathers, regardless, e.g., we are all “sky daddy” people.
The funny thing is, just like the RSRP’s among us, they keep thinking as they do regardless of the arguments or evidence against such really shallow ways of thinking. For me, it’s the same as talking to my own RSRP relatives . . . for years and nothing changes. (RSAU–Really Stupid Among Us)
As a personal aside, I finally “ghosted” or banned one of my out-of-state “religious” relatives from calling or writing; and a thoughtful friend said I should “forgive” and just move on. I said that I have forgiven her . . . for YEARS of pleading with me to “just accept Jesus”. . . or else I was going to hell. (The least of the worst is that she is so utterly boring.)
The problem is not that I cannot forgive, but that she will not quit. Its almost always about that and nothing else . . . and it always lurks. Who needs the empty interiors of AI when you already have THAT as your correspondent?
But as you seem to understand, closed mindedness is a human thing, a daily problem for us all, I think; and not reserved only for religious people. It’s not all bad here on this blog, of course, but it’s a lurking presence on this and other blogs and comes forward almost daily. I have often thought that there is a straight and unbroken line of increasing extremism that goes back to the psychological malaise that was so evident in the Salem witch trials.
I cut the rest of this note because it was addressed later, after my note went to moderation. CBK
Adding my 2cts. I have enjoyed a number of regular skirmishes with atheist friends/ colleagues over the decades, including pushy evangelists and ‘never will darken the door again’ cradle Catholics.
As you can see, I’m already mixing them up. That’s because they all sound the same to me, whether pro- or anti- religion— whether basing their position on Bible or science or catechism. Some sound doctrinaire, some think in stark, binary terms, but those I’ve known all sound defensive— the over-the-top Evangelists and reactionary Catholics and the ones who are refugees from over-the-top Evangelism as well as rigid [Irish] Catholic upbringing—as though still fighting some old battle.
bethree5 I wanted to respond, but everything I write is going to moderation. CBK
CBK, I opened the blog site at 8 am and found several of your comments in moderation, along with some of Bob’s, one of Dienne. I regret that WordPress did this. I can’t explain it. Nothing is in moderation at this time.
Diane Thank you for your response. I was beginning to think maybe Linda was in charge of the Moderation program (humor alert!). Have a good day, as I will set out to do (it’s only 8 here in CA.) CBK
Montana I reposted and it still went to mxxerxtxxn. Here is the relevant crux of that note:
I have actually “ghosted” my right-winger family members. But as you seem to understand, closed mindedness is a human thing, a daily problem for us all, I think; and again, not reserved only for religious people. It’s not all bad here on this blog, of course, but it’s a lurking presence on this and other blogs and comes forward sometimes almost daily.
I have often thought that the overkill is connected on a straight and unbroken line of increasing extremism that goes back to the psychological malaise that was so evident in the Salem witch trials. CBK
“These Iowa Counties Would Receive the Most in Voucher Money” (1-20-2023, Iowa Starting Line website)
Collectively, (these) counties will receive an amount annually from tax-funded vouchers that is more than the annual budget for most of Iowa’s 328 public school districts. Districts without a private school won’t get new funds from the proposal.
Listed below – the Counties and the biggest recipient
Polk County- Dowling Catholic H.S., $10 mil.
Linn County -Xavier H.S., $4.5 mil.
Johnson County- Regina Catholic Education Center, $6.2 mil.
Plymouth County- Gehler Catholic Elementary and H.S., $3.6 mil.
Sioux County- Sioux Center Christian School, $3.8 mil.
Scott County- St. Paul the Apostle School, $2.7 mil. and All Saints Catholic School, $2.6 mil.
Dubuque County- Resurrection Elementary School, $3 mil.
Black Hawk County- St. Edward Elementary School $2.2 mil
Woodbury County- Bishop Heelan High School, $3 mil.
Carroll County- Kuenper Catholic School, $8 mil.
The proposal is from Gov. Kim Reynolds who is Lutheran. The top two religions in Iowa are Catholic and Lutheran.
Leonard Leo of the Federalist Society received an award from a Catholic organization. Presumably, the organization understood the significance of filling the coffers of Catholic organizations.
Linda writes “The proposal is from Gov. Kim Reynolds who is Lutheran. The top two religions in Iowa are Catholic and Lutheran.
Linda: So what? Are you the “Religious Police”? Are you just finding out or do you think everyone else doesn’t know that people are religious and that some politicians go to church on Sunday? Or that Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are both also Catholic? Are they just moles for the Catholic Church? Or don’t you recognize your own use of innuendo?
I guess we are all supposed to hold our cheeks in utter fear and self-disgust saying: MY GOD! How did THEY get into pubic office?
Linda, again, you sound like the Nazi’s discovering Jews in German basements. CBK
Linda writes: “The proposal is from Gov. Kim Reynolds who is Lutheran. The top two religions in Iowa are Catholic and Lutheran.”
Linda: So what? Are you the “Religious Police”? Are you just finding out or do you think everyone else doesn’t know that people are religious and that some politicians go to church on Sunday? Or that Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are both also Catholic? Are they just moles for the Catholic Church? Or don’t you recognize your own use of innuendo?
I guess we are all supposed to hold our cheeks in utter fear and self-disgust saying: MY XXX! How did THEY get into pubic office? CBK
My original note went to moderation. I abbreviated it here.
Linda I have thought this before about you innuendo about politicians who were OMG! Catholic! or Lutheran! or whatever!
Besides your sounding like the self-appointed “religious police” on this site, and besides the the creepiness of images of blood dripping from your teeth that come to mind as you “expose” this or that politician as again . . . OMG! a CATHOLIC! or LUTERAN! . . .such comments more than hint at the Nazis hunting for Jews in German attics.
I find it sickening and think it’s a blight on anything that comes close to democracy where thankfully, religious tests are still unacceptable.
And by the way, I have always found agreement with your criticisms of the Catholic Church . . . and said so many times. But you remain moot about the fact that Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi and so many others are staunch Catholics. I guess addressing such questions might look to you like poop in your anti-religious ideological punchbowl. CBK
Diane Tonight, they put my response to GregB, Duane, Linda, and BeThree in moderation . . . again. What a waste of time. Such goings-on don’t exactly foster a willingness to continue. CBK
Addendum Four notes tonight, two very short, went to moderation tonight. CBK
CBK: WordPress puts comments into moderation for inexplicable reasons, and a busy person cannot be expected to check every 2 or 3 minutes to take them out of moderation. I know this is frustrating, but this is how this venue/medium works.
Catherine’s comment posted on this thread, 2:17 at 4:10 a.m., once again, introduces “blood” into her diatribes against me. It’s creepy.
Linda What’s truly creepy is your religious witch hunt even as you speak truth about religious vagaries which, you seem not to understand, concern most if not all of us. CBK
Addendum: Fascism also cloaks itself in selectively “cropped” truth . . . specifically, omissions. CBK
“all of us”
Catherine reflects the type of “one church” authoritarian thinking of the Catholic Church. Few, if any people, who believe in democracy, have presumptions about uniform agreement.
Catherine’s argumentation, if it can be called that when it is mostly personal insults, reflects the strategy choice of the bishops who hawk school privatization and pay their state Conferences to lobby politicians (some of which co-host choice rallies with the Koch network). An example of one strategy, is diverting focus away from the evidence – Iowa data summary, in my comment, 2-16-2023, 9:29.
Media has shown us the skill of another of the Church’s strategies- cover-up.
Linda I wrote another note which again went to moderation. But maybe this brief one will get through in the interim: parse parse, stretch stretch, distort distort, divert divert. CBK
Linda There you go again: I wrote “IF NOT all of us.”
Do you really think anyone but the bottom of the barrel low life isn’t disgusted with child sexual abuse, especially by Catholic priests and other kinds of church authorities? WE ALL ARE REALLY DISGUSTED WITH IT.
BTW, that’s a universal, even historical, problem in several churches and other kinds of institutions, including the Boy Scouts. (They’re still openly and aggressively working on THAT problem at the Vatican.)
But Linda, your argument is getting stretched out of shape. It’s just more distortions and diversionary parsing, “if not” outright lies. And you still haven’t addressed the Catholicism of Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi, just to name two. But I really couldn’t give a hoot at this point. CBK
Catherine-
Whether you write clearly or not is your concern. The subject of your sentence was “witch hunt.” Therefore, the “concern of all of us” refers to the witch hunt.
In reference to your fixation with blood, specifically, the “bleeding from my teeth” description, I stand corrected, you are scary more than creepy. Your ideation suggests torture like that during the Inquisition.
Another note to moderation. CBK
Linda The concern was about the “religious vagaries,” but you knew that already. If that’s all you have is grammatical corrections, however, then I must be doing something right. Also, you may or may not be a fascist at heart, but fascism starts with witch hunts like yours. You must be concerned . . . OMG! Our President is a Catholic! CBK