President Zelenskyy has repeatedly pleaded with every nation that would listen: Send us jets so we can protect our citizens. Thus far, President Biden has stood firm in opposition because he fears a wider war. Ukraine is not a member of NATO so NATO is not obliged to defend it.
But as awareness of the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Russian military increase, the necessity of helping Ukraine defend itself grows more compelling.
Ukraine wants MIGS. Poland wants to give them to Ukraine. Let it happen.
What is the difference between sending tanks to Ukraine and sending jets? What’s the difference between sending Stingers and Javelins and sending jets?
Putin threatened war if the West defends Ukraine. But the West is already defending Ukraine.
Putin already said that economic sanctions are a declaration of war. So in his mind, he is already at war with the West. But he sets the ground rules.
He was outraged that Ukraine bombed a fuel depot inside Russia. But he invaded Ukraine and bombed fuel depots, homes, schools, hospitals, and theaters. He has made ferocious war on civilians, trapping the people of Mariupol in their devastated city and barring access to those bringing humanitarian aid, including the International Red Cross.
We should not allow Putin to decide how much or what kind of defensive weapons the West should supply to an innocent nation that is being pulverized by Putin’s military. Putin must not be allowed to do to Ukraine what he did to Chechnya.
Send Ukraine the jets it needs to defend itself!
**************
An important historical footnote from TIME magazine:
Kaja Kallas has clear memories of the Soviet occupation. She was a teenager when Estonia became independent, and she remembers growing up before that with empty shop shelves, a passport that would not allow her to travel to countries outside the Eastern bloc, and a chilling atmosphere that kept people from speaking freely outside their homes. She also remembers the stories about the harsher deprivations—deportations, imprisonment— that her parents and grandparents faced. So now that Kallas is Estonia’s Prime Minister, it makes sense that she has become one of the most vocal advocates for taking an unyielding stance against Putin.
“If Putin wins, or if he even has the view that he has won this war, his appetite will only grow,” Kallas, 44, said in late March, sitting in the elegant neoclassical building—its salons lined with paintings of Estonian patriots—that serves as the seat of government. “And that means he will consider other countries. That’s why we have to do everything we can to stop him now.”
Like other countries in the region, Estonia has had painful experiences with Russian oppression. Occupied by the Soviet Union in the 1940s, the country’s farms were forcibly collectivized and tens of thousands of its citizens deported to Siberia. It was not until 1991, when the USSR was collapsing, that the country regained its independence. Quickly reverting to democracy, Estonia joined the European Union in 2004, and put a forward-looking emphasis on digitalization—all of its public services and much of its business is conducted online. It has since become one of the fastest-growing economies in Europe. But it has never relinquished its mistrust of its powerful neighbor to the east, with whom it shares nearly 200 miles of border.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
You are promoting a larger or possibly nuclear war inUkraine. US and expansion of NATO provoked this war. Remember the Cuban missile crisis in 1960?This the reverse! The US can stop this war if it wants to!
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Former Soviet satellites asked to join NATO to protect them against Russia. No one pressured them to join. Sorry but I don’t see the analogy to the Cuban missile crisis. Russia was on course to being a respectable member of the global community. This unprovoked war is against Ukraine, not NATO. Putin has made Russia a pariah state and reversed thirty years of economic progress. I am sorry for the Russian boys he sent to die.
THANK YOU for this, DIANE!!!
Well except for the part about 30 years of economic progress.
Had Jeffery Sachs and Company not employed neo liberal “Shock Therapy” there might never have been a Putin.
The only person who can stop this war is Putin. He started it.
The only way this would be analogous to the Cuban Missile crisis would be if the West were surreptitiously building nuclear warhead installations in Ukraine.
The West did not amass an invasion force. The west does not murder opposition politicians. The West does not use illegal weapons on Russia. The West opposed Asad.
MIGS May or May not be the answer, but Putin is entirely the question
Roy,
I feel like someone watching a fistfight between a 220 lb bully and a 120 lb nerd. How long do you wait until someone stops the fight or the little guy is destroyed?
Here’s how ridiculous this “The US and NATO provoked this war argument is:
Putin claims that he had to do this because he didn’t want Ukraine to become a nuclear-armed NATO member on his border. That’s the argument.
But,
a. Ukraine is not a nuclear power.
b. If Putin were to annex the whole of Ukraine, he would THEN have several NATO members with additional borders on his expanded, family-sized Greater Russia–Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania.
c. In a very real sense, the major nuclear powers–the US, Russia, and China–ARE on one another’s borders already, because each can deliver nuclear weapons upon the others via air, land, or sea in minutes.
d. NATO is a defensive alliance against ground attack, and all Putin’s most recent bloody, brutal, illegal incursions into Ukraine have shown is HOW NECESSARY NATO IS.
This “argument” is so transparently false that one is surprised even to have to counter it. Russia is the aggressor here. The “operation” is a Crime of Aggression. It is committing numerous War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity. These have already been quite well documented. Putin is a war criminal. He should be indicted and made an internationally recognized fugitive from justice. The UN should invoke Resolution 377A, the Uniting for Peace Resolution, override the Security Council, and send in an overwhelming peacekeeping force to stop the wholesale murder and rape and vandalism and looting being done by the Russian forces. While we talk, children die, women are raped, old people’s homes are looted of their silverware.
One other point, Bob. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine had the third largest nuclear stockpile in the world. Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees of its sovereignty by Russia and the U.S. Putin says he is not bound by that agreement because he didn’t sign it.
https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine-war-what-is-the-budapest-memorandum-and-why-has-russias-invasion-torn-it-up-178184
The unfolding invasion of Ukraine will have far-reaching repercussions that extend way beyond a breach of international law and a violation of the country’s territorial integrity. As American international relations expert David Yost notes, Russia’s actions will weaken the credibility of major power security assurances, undermine the nuclear nonproliferation regime and dampen prospects for future disarmament.
Putin’s decision to invade is in direct violation of the Budapest Memorandum, a key instrument assuring Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. The memorandum was struck in 1994, following lengthy and complicated negotiations involving the then Russian president Boris Yeltsin, Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma, US president Bill Clinton and the then British prime minister John Major.
Under the terms of the memorandum, Ukraine agreed to relinquish its nuclear arsenal – the world’s third-largest, inherited from the collapsed Soviet Union – and transfer all nuclear warheads to Russia for decommissioning. This enabled Ukraine to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) as a non-nuclear state.
The NPT is a legally-binding instrument that recognises only five countries as legitimate holders of nuclear weapons: China, France, Russia, the UK and the US. All other countries are banned from developing a nuclear arsenal and those that have, including India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea, are not parties to the NPT.
In exchange for giving up its nuclear arsenal, Ukraine initially sought legally binding guarantees from the US that it would intervene should Ukraine’s sovereignty be breached. But when it became clear that the US was not willing to go that far, Ukraine agreed to somewhat weaker – but nevertheless significant – politically binding security assurances to respect its independence and sovereignty which guaranteed its existing borders. China and France subsequently extended similar assurances to Ukraine, but did not sign the Budapest Memorandum.
The Budapest Memorandum consists of a series of political assurances whereby the signatory states commit to “respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine”. But the meaning of the security assurances was deliberately left ambiguous. According to a former US diplomat who participated in the talks, Steven Pifer, it was understood that if there was a violation, there would be a response incumbent on the US and the UK. And while that response was not explicitly defined, Pifer notes that: “there is an obligation on the United States that flows from the Budapest Memorandum to provide assistance to Ukraine, and […] that would include lethal military assistance”.
Russia first broke its commitments under the Budapest Memorandum in 2014, with its annexation of Crimea and aggression in eastern Ukraine. The international response at the time was lacklustre – although the US and the UK did subsequently step up their efforts to strengthen Ukraine’s armed forces through training and provision of lethal defensive arms. At the time, a committee of the UK House of Lords noted that:
As one of the four signatories of the Budapest Memorandum (1994), which pledged to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity, the UK had a particular responsibility when the crisis erupted. The government has not been as active or as visible on this issue as it could have been.
Serious violation
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine today is an even more serious violation and effectively buries Russia’s assurances in the Budapest Memorandum. Not only that, but Putin’s recent order to put Russia’s nuclear deterrence forces “on high alert” is a further repudiation of Russia’s assurances towards Ukraine, as it raises the spectre – no matter how distant – of a nuclear war.
US secretary of state John Kerry sits at a table with other diplomats including Ukrainian foreign minister Andrii Deshchytsia and British foreign secretary William Hague, March 2014.
US secretary of state John Kerry in discussions with Britain and Ukraine about Russia’s violation of the Budapest Memorandum after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea. State Department/Sipa USA
The US and UK responses in the face of Russia’s recent aggression have been limited. Both countries offered Ukraine financing, military equipment and training and have applied increasingly strict sanctions on Russia. But they have ruled out any direct intervention, such as imposing no-fly zones over Ukraine, for fear of being dragged into a war with Russia. While this limited response fulfils the letter of the US and UK’s commitments under the Budapest Memorandum, the impression that emerges is very much that Ukraine was left on its own to fight an unlawful, nuclear-capable aggressor.
It is unsurprising, perhaps, that some Ukrainian leaders and the public feel betrayed and consider that the security assurances they received in the Budapest Memorandum are not worth the paper they were written on.
This may have far-reaching consequences for the future of nuclear nonproliferation and disarmament. Other states in Russia’s neighbourhood – and in the wider world – may begin to question whether such assurances are sufficiently reliable to ensure their long-term security. This may, in turn, undermine the credibility of major power security assurances, previously used as bargaining chips to dissuade countries such as Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine from possessing nuclear weapons.
This experience may also change the rhetoric around nuclear nonproliferation that, at present, casts states seeking nuclear weapons as “international pariahs”. In light of Ukraine’s experience, the pursuance of nuclear weapons to safeguard one’s sovereignty and independence may be seen as more legitimate.
The image of Ukraine being invaded by Russia despite its security assurances and being left largely to fend for itself in this conflict may trigger a resurgant interest in nuclear weapons. Some evidence of this has already begun to emerge, for instance in Japan, where the former prime minister Shinzo Abe argued that “Japan should break a longstanding taboo and hold an active debate on nuclear weapons – including a possible ‘nuclear-sharing’ programme.”
Such a development would be dangerous not only because it serves to weaken the nuclear nonproliferation regime, but it could also lead to increased chances of an avoidable nuclear war.
Thank you, again, Diane. Extremely important. More reasons why the bully must be stopped here and now.
The latest atrocity. Russians are kidnapping Ukrainian children and using them as human shields to prevent attacks on their retreating tanks.
Another result of this invasion will be a diplomatic revolution on the order of the one that preceded the First World War.
Less certain is whether this invasion will lead to a reaction against autocratic leadership in general. In Hungary, five opponents of Orlov have banded together to defeat him at the ballot box.
He’s still going to win, but this is an extremely important point, Roy. This can be the test case in whether the old way of the strongman/thug will work in the modern world.
Orban won easily. He says proudly that Hungary is an “illiberal” state and it is the model for the future of Europe. Let’s hope not. Orban has taken control of the media, the judiciary, and educational institutions. And after 12 years in office, he will serve another four years. He won’t match Putin’s record; he has been in power for 20 years and his term was extended to 2036.
A sad day.
The authoritarian leader of Hungary, Viktor Orban, is a close ally of Putin. They have become darlings of the far right in our country because they stand strong for “traditional values.” They both say that the greatest menace in their nations is the presence of gays and lesbians.
You meant Orban, ofc.
Orban. Who is Orlov? I left my brain somewhere. I still take the point. Will Marie LePen still be taken seriously in France? Maybe MT Greene can move to the Georgia near Putin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Orlov_(Soviet_defector)
I missed one important counterargument, above:
e. Putin has made extremely clear his long-term intent in his own words, in his imperialist screed entitled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” which is basically a declaration of intended war on all currently sovereign countries that he considers a part of his fantasized Greater Russia. That essay is an assertion of his complete disavowal of the basic principle of international law that UN members states must respect the territorial integrity of other UN member states.
This fits solidly into the Czarist view of The Russian Empire as the great mother of the Slavic people. This rather convenient view justified Russian expansion in their south at the expense of the Ottoman Empire. Putin has been suggested as a Communist, but I see him as a Czarist.
YUP. In this, Putin is in the Russian tradition of betrayal of workers and other ordinary people by the despotic, murderous Russian Socialist-in-name-only leadership, beginning with Lenin. Welcome to the new boss, worse than the old boss.
Here are the real reasons for Putin’s brutal, illegal invasion:
a. He wanted a land bridge to Crimea.
b. He wanted freedom to loot the substantial agricultural and mineralogical resources of Ukraine.
c. He wants to be remembered as Tsar Vlad the Great, restorer of Greater Russia.
d. He thought he could get away with this because of the tepid responses in the past to his past criminal, imperialist actions.
e. He thought he would get a boost in the polls within his repressed country as he did after the criminal invasion and annexation of Crimea.
f. He doesn’t give a ____ how many children and grandmothers die to get him what he wants because he is a little Chekist murderer at his core.
To obrerosdemit:
Who pays you, Putin?
Fearing what Putin will do means eventually Putin will do it. Now is the time to send NATO’s military forces across the border into Ukraine and to declare a no fly zone over all of Ukraine.
Then if Putin uses battle field nukes, we use battle field nukes, and if Putin uses ballistic misses with nuclear warheads aimed at all NATO countries, we use them until this crap is over or our species has been wiped off the face of the planet.
Once we fall prey to a brutal monster and bully like Putin, he will always push us around.
This type of debate reminds of what Thomas Payne said during a revolution by thirteen small colonies against the mightiest empire on the planet.
“Give me liberty, or give me death!” is a quotation attributed to Patrick Henry from a speech he made to the Second Virginia Convention on March 23, 1775, at St. John’s Church in Richmond, Virginia.
There’s more like this one. During the same revolution a US naval captain by the name of John Paul Jones was asked to surrender his American naval ship after it had taken a crippling battering.
His response, “I have not yet begun to fight.”
https://allthingsliberty.com/2015/01/the-real-immortal-words-of-john-paul-jones/
The last quote I’ll share was from the American commander of the 101st Airborne division during World War II. Hitler’s Nazi army had his division surrounded and demanded they surrender or die. The US general’s reply was “Nuts!.”
https://taskandpurpose.com/history/us-army-nuts-bastogne-surrender/
I could go on with examples of people standing up to bullies and monster’s like Putin. Some die. Some win. But because “some” refused to stop fighting the monster’s, the bullies, the Hitlers, Stalins and Putins of the world always lose.
If Biden fears a larger war, that fear will not stop that wider war. It will insure that wider war because Putin will be emboldened to became an even worse monster.
Biden and maybe other NATO leaders decided to let fear make their decisions for them.
“Biden and maybe other NATO leaders decided to let fear make their decisions for them.”
I actually am happy and surprised that a US leader is this thoughtful and empathetic. He seems to be thinking as if his country (the US) had common borders with Ukraine, from where the war could easily spill over to his own country, killing thousands or more before counting to 10.
Biden’s “fear” is for other nations’ citizens. That’s new and refreshing after always hearing about “US interests” as the primary motivation to do anything
I think this is how people should think about this situation in Ukraine before writing down the usual cowboyish recipes for how to behave during a war that is waged thousands of miles away from the US borders.
I also think Biden respects the lives of our military since his own son served. He doesn’t want to put our young people in harm’s way needlessly. His response is thoughtful, not fearful.
This expansion of NATO as provocateur narrative is growing tiresome. It is being floated/ debated in MSM whether this was some scurrilous attempt by the West to grab nations to “our side.”
What is surprising about the early-’90’s flood of former Soviet satellite nations to an organization that gives them security against being grabbed back by Russia? Is it not an obvious consequence of the USSR having assembled, by force, a group of puppet states around its Western border post-WWII? [Let alone the Bolshevik takeover of Georgia and Ukraine long before]
Some of them (like Estonia et al) were part of the Russian Empire for 200 yrs until freed by the Russian revolution in 1917– the USSR finally grabbed them back in 1940. Others, like Poland, Hungary, what became “East Germany,” and Czechoslovakia were long associated with the West, and were simply taken over by force as buffers against the West. All of them were subjected to Iron Curtain suppression of world news, surveillance, denial of emigration or even visit to the West, and far worse for some. Why wouldn’t they beg for entry to NATO when USSR collapsed? Why would they trust Russia?
Those who say NATO should have kept hands off the freed Soviet satellite states belie the concept of national self-determination, deny history, are playing some global chess game where hindsight prevails.
Ginny, you are right on. No one forced the former Soviet satellites to join NATO. They chose to. They have self-determination. They wanted protection.
YES!!!!!
SEND THE MIGS!!!
And a lot more javelins.
And Patriot antimissile defense systems.
And a LARGE and well-armed UN peacekeeping force.
“SEND THE MIGS!!!”
Yes, Bob. Afterall, whatever spills over the Ukrainian border into other neighboring countries as a result is still about 5000 miles away from where such thoughtful and fearless advice are born.
How is giving the Ukrainians the ability to keep Russian aircraft from bombing them by adding increased air defense capabilities going to cause the war to spill over into neighboring countries. Pardon my ignorance, but I don’t understand the argument.
Bob Shepherd
I usually am a skeptic of accepting (any) administrations authority on face value when it comes to foriegn policy. This is one case where I would deflect to the experts. Biden is not operating in a vacuum. He has 30 other NATO countries to deal with in addition to the threat of nuclear escalation. So Poland is more than willing to give up some 40 year old jets in exchange for replacement with 20 year old American Jets . . Of course not from their territory. So from whose territory? An American airbase in Ramstein?
The EU has not committed to make the sacrifice of halting Russian oil and gas imports. The Gulf States we prop up have not committed ramping up oil and gas production to make up for Russian oil. Israel the same. China is refusing to isolate Russia . Wall Street is holding back on opening back up American Wells and the American people are whining about inflation.
Certainly there is economic pressure that could be put on if we et-al were willing to make the sacrifice. Talk of Freedom and Democracy is cheap when you are crying about oil prices that adjusted for incomes are lower than peaks a decade ago. When you are not even willing to dial back a thermostat.
There are a hell of a lot more useful weapons that do not carry the implications of being able to reach Moscow in 60- 90 minutes. I will differ to Biden.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/14/ukraine-poland-jets-fighters/
I notice, Diane, that whenever you post about Ukraine, the first to show up is one of the Russian trolls.
One of the consequences of living in a relatively open and free society, as opposed to a despotism like Putin’s Russia, where social media, voting, and the press are rigidly controlled, and dissidents are murdered by secret police.
Remarkable!
THANK YOU, Diane, for not forgetting that as we sit here in the comfort of our homes, the unprovoked, unspeakably horrific murder and rape and looting and destruction of property by Putin. Should the world wait until Putin has done to Odessa what he has already done to Mariupol and Kharkiv and many smaller towns and villages–terrorized them, leveled them, murdered their citizens, destroyed their homes and hospitals and schools and roads and cultural landmarks?
Ukrainians will have LONG memories of this.
cx: by Putin continues
i am temporarily suspending my subscription because i don’t want anyone to die from a nuclear war. i profoundly disagree with Diane on this issue–speaking as a historian.
Well, there is the way of the hedgehog and the way of the fox and the way of the ostrich.
Lauren,
I’m sorry. I hope we will see you back again soon. PS: I love Napa Valley.
I, too, hate to see you go, Lauren. I have enjoyed your comments here. But I respectfully, if emphatically, disagree with you about this. The two are not linked, and we must not be driven by a fear that they are. In that direction lies terrible danger to the international order–to international law and to peace going forward.
Perhaps if other countries had stood up to Hitler when he first took over parts of Czechoslovakia, he could have been stopped earlier, even before the Poland blitzkrieg. Bullies must be stopped immediately. Dictators do not negotiate and should not be allowed to call the shots. This is how I interpret lessons from history. Putin will use Ukraine as a base from which he can expand into more countries in the same way that he used Crimea as a base to expand further into Ukraine. We should not show fear toward Putin. Fear feeds bullies.
“We should not show fear toward Putin. Fear feeds bullies.”
Caution is not the same as showing fear. The description of Putin and the Russians that they are bullies is way too simplistic. Russians genuinely distrust the West and the NATO, and their basic motivation is to secure their borders and protect their own kind, tens of millions of which live in foreign countries as a result of the breakup of the Soviet Union.
This evaluation doesn’t excuse the war but it certainly suggests a different strategy to end the war from what’s used against bullies of the streets.
All these references to WWII are also simplistic and hence false. During WWII, what worked against Hitler was not just all out wars, but treaties with him as well to win time. Also, when designing strategies, it wasn’t just Hitler’s or Mussolini’s personal drives and ambitions that were were considered but the motivations of the millions of people who supported them.
Stalin was also a bully, several orders of magnitude greater than any of the currently living bullies, and on equal level with Hitler. Still, I doubt anybody would have suggested during WWII to “deal with him as a bully to end the war”.
So I think this “Bullies must be stopped immediately.” advice is rarely useful in practice, and may even be harmful if taken literally.
Mate, do you think that Putin’s representatives have negotiated in good faith during the past five weeks? The most important outcome now is to stop the war. Who can stop it? How?
The bully will continue until others stand up to him. That’s just the way it is.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/adolfoflores/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia
We must ensure that Ukraine has the overwhelming force that it needs to stop the wholesale murder of its citizens, not only for the obvious humanitarian reasons but for the sake of the international order going forward. It must be made clear that this sort of blatant violation of international law will not be countenanced and that the imperialist way of the strongman, the Putinist program, will not prevail.
Well stated, Bob.
send jets , start ww111.
how about we redirect the arms we are sending to yemen to ukraine?
The risk is escalating the Putin response…
Sent from my iPhone Peter Goodman Ed in the Apple 917-816-4028
>
Send jets to Ukraine? — NATO failed to even fortify the Baltic NATO nations out of fear that would anger Putin, to whom western European NATO nations sold their soul in exchange for Russian oil and natural gas. It is this cowardice and self-interest of the western NATO nations that signaled to Putin that they would not do anything more to stop his invasion of Ukraine other than send a token amount of face-saving weapons — and even now already the flow of those weapons to Ukraine is slowing, dooming Ukraine.
Biden must suck-it-up and now —immediately — enforce The Truman Doctrine that kept Russia and China in check for decades. There won’t be any WW3 because MAD remains the operative reality — so, the UN needs to immediately launch a military police action in the Ukraine like it launched when Russia and China used their North Korean puppets to attack South Korea.
entirely agreed
These made up “rules” are very odd.
We are all watching Ukranians being sacrificed. Blood on all our hands.
Agreed
Sending weapons to Ukraine really risks the escalation of the war. We can repeat as many times as we want that “Putin is at fault”, the possible escalation of the war remains.
We and our Allie’s are already sending weapons to Ukraine.
Máté, please explain the popularity of Vícktor Orban. Why does he pride himself on being the most illiberal leader in Hungary? Why has he made war on gays in Hungary? Are they so threatening to the state? I visited Hungary in 1990, as everything was changing. This was not a closed-minded society. Why have the people allowed him to take control of the media, the judiciary, education? He has no charisma, at least to me. How has he managed to impose authoritarian rule on a society that was excited about freedom?
Sorry, he calls himself the most “illiberal” leader in Europe, not just Hungary.
As you know, my views are far from the right, and I certainly do not agree with Orbán’s “illiberal” views. On the other hand, the way Orbán and Hungary are presented in the US and in the Western media is badly skewed. For one, Orbán is intelligent, speaks well. It’s easy to create a distorted view by selecting short clips of somebody’s speeches. There is no doubt that Orbán has too much power and that he wants more.
I think the main reason Orbán got reelected is that there has been no strong, believable alternative.
It’s also important to realize that the Hungarian right is very much unlike the US right. The government fully supports public schools, free health care, for example.
Since we are talking about the war in Ukraine, I think Hungary’s position is reasonable, especially since there is a sizeable (to Hungarians) chunk of Ukraine which used to be Hungary before the end of WWII, and there are about 200K Hungarians living is Western Ukraine. Hungarians are afraid that the war will spread to Western Ukraine and then into Hungary.
So far, about half a million Ukrainian refugees crossed into Hungary—a country which is smaller than the state of Tennessee. The Ukrainian refugees have been greatly helped by volunteers (which includes my sisters, for example), and the Hungarian government also provides for them: free accommodation, food, free train tickets, etc. These things have gone unreported in the Western media since they want to maintain that Hungarians are unfriendly to refugees.
There was an antiwar demonstration in Budapest by about half a million people couple of weeks ago. This went mostly unreported in the West, or they claimed, this was a demonstration for Orbán.
Claiming that Orbán is a buddy of Putin is probably incorrect. The following may indicate that the issue requires some thought.
The Government of the Russian Federation has put Hungary on the list of foreign states and territories that “commit unfriendly actions against Russia, its companies, and citizens,” Russian News Agency TASS reported.
The countries and territories mentioned in the list imposed or joined the sanctions against Russia inflicted in reaction to the military attack against Ukraine.
https://hungarytoday.hu/russia-hungary-friendship-relations-unfriendly-countries/
“I think the main reason Orbán got reelected is that there has been no strong, believable alternative.”
In my opinion, the left in Hungary presented no comprehensive and comprehensible program. They basically confined themselves to a negative campaign where every single thing the government did was bad. Many of their claims, such as that people are worse off than before Orbán had gotten into power didn’t ring true, hence they lost credibility. It’s difficult to get enthusiastic about “Orbán is bad, let’s vote against him.”
Unfortunately, the left in Hungary is packed with neoliberals who call themselves liberals, and you can also hear more and more libertarian voices among them.
I really, seriously, do not understand this argument, Mate. The West needs to give Ukraine the capabilities that it needs to stop the slaughter in Ukraine. Why short-range anti-aircraft weapons but not fighters? In what way is this “escalating” the war? It’s defending the freaking country of Ukraine. All that Russia has to do to stop Ukrainians from shooting down their fighters and helicopters is to get those TF out of Ukrainian airspace.
It is already the case that the armaments with which Ukraine is fending off this brutal attack are from the United States and NATO.
Can you imagine that if you are a small country and war is going on your borders then you try to be careful about how you help the country that is attacked?
Imagine that your neighbor is attacked by a dozen thugs. Do you run over and help out your neighbor, no matter what, or you also think about the possible consequences of your actions to your own family’s safety? What if, as a result of your interference, the thugs decide to attack your family as well?
To me, defense or self defense are not clear cut, simple issues, since we have to think about how much and whose lives are we willing to endanger or even sacrifice.
I understand, Mate. And best wishes to your family and friends and colleagues back in Hungary. I think that Putin needs to be stopped in Ukraine. Otherwise, what’s next? Moldova? Finland? And what about the principle in international law that it is illegal for UN member nation to violate the territorial integrity of another? This seems important to be quite clear about, right now, which is why I think that the UN should send an overwhelming peacekeeping force to Ukraine.
“I think that Putin needs to be stopped in Ukraine.”
I agree. The question is how.
“[Russia] will leave all territories except the south and east, will try to dig in there, set air defense, drastically reduce losses and dictate terms. Without heavy weapons, we won’t be able to drive [Russia] out.” –Michael Podolyak, a senior to President Volodymyr
Zelenskyy
Putin is the only person who can stop the war that he started.
Mate,
Why does Viktor Orban hate gays so much? I understand there was a national referendum on the ballot about homosexuals but I don’t know what the Hungarian people were voting on. Rights of gays?
I am not sure one can claim that Orbán “hates” gays.
What I can tell you is that in my opinion Orbán is responsible for the huge division of the Hungarian people which is similar to the one in the US. There is hateful propaganda on both sides, and Soros, unfortunately, is to blame for some of this coming from the Hungarian left.
I always wanted to move to Hungary after retirement, but now I am thinking about moving to a country where politicians are trusted, and citizens don’t yell at each other about politics. Perhaps Finland is such a place.
If Orban doesn’t hate gays, then I think we can agree that the national referendum on gay rights, which he sponsored, was intended to demonize and humiliate gays by removing rights that other citizens have.
Do you have a better word than “hate”?
Orban “loathes” gays.
Orban wants to single out gays as unworthy of the rights of other citizens.
Orban wants to h7miliate gays?
Well, my understanding is that, luckily, most Hungarians do not support Orbán on this issue.
But a separate referendum held on LGBTQ and transgender issues was declared invalid after a campaign by groups to spoil ballots.
…
He says on the whole, Budapest is a very accepting place, and he hopes Hungary doesn’t follow Russia’s example when it comes to the perception of the gay community.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/many-hungarians-spoil-ballots-to-invalidate-referendum-on-lgbtq-content-in-society/ar-AAVQB80
But those who did vote in the referendum—almost half—90% voted to eliminate LGBT rights. Budapest—like cities in the US—is open-minded. Rural districts not so much.
The anti-gay referendum did not pass because so many ballots were spoiled (the tactic recommended by the opposition). Of those that were valid, 90% were in favor of removing the rights of gays.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7d848/lgbtq-referendum-hungary
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-04/orban-referendum-targeting-lgbtq-rights-fails-to-become-binding
Orban, the European Union’s longest-serving and most controversial leader, has put a battle against “gender insanity” and what he calls Brussels’ “woke” support for trans and gay rights at the heart of his re-election bid.
But even some rusted-on supporters privately concede it’s a highly cynical move. The referendum is being held on the same day as the general election to distract from domestic issues such as the government’s handling of the pandemic, rising inflation and the continued creep of Orban’s authoritarianism….
Despite sex-change treatment for minors already being illegal in Hungary, voters will be asked: “Do you support the promotion of sex reassignment therapy for underage children?”
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/gays-caught-in-the-crossfire-of-hungary-election-20220401-p5a9xa.html
When a politician asks the public to ban something that is already illegal, it suggests he is a cynical liar.
“The referendum is being held on the same day as the general election to distract from domestic issues such as the government’s handling of the pandemic, rising inflation and the continued creep of Orban’s authoritarianism….”
Of these, only the last one I comprehend. No doubt, Orbán wants to be king. But: I have no idea in what sense was the pandemic mishandled. We had quite huge opposition to vaccinations and masks, just because the strict measures came from the government. In my opinion, the Hungarian government has supported vaccination and masks better than the US.
The Hungarian inflation rate is similar to the US’s
US: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi
HU: https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/inflation-cpi
I repeat: I am not supporting Orbán, but the “everything Orbán and the government does is crap” is a false narrative, hence it’s harmful because it ignites angry kneejerk reactions instead of searching for faithful description of the situation in Hungary.
Lately whomever I talk to and they find out that I am Hungarian, will immediately tell me how I should think about Hungary and Hungarians, and when I say that things are more nuanced than they are presented in the media, I am painted as an Orbán supporter who is against, for example, gay rights.
“The referendum is being held on the same day as the general election to distract from domestic issues such as the government’s handling of the pandemic, rising inflation and the continued creep of Orban’s authoritarianism….”
My original reply didn’t get out of moderation, so I try a bit differently: the above is a typical vague and blanket presentation of the situation in Hungary in the Western media, hinting, the situation in Hungary is chaotic. The inflation rate in Hungary is, in fact, changes similarly to the one in the US:
US: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi
HU: https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/inflation-cpi
The pandemic has been handled better in Hungary than in the US: the government dared to madate masks everywhere, and made vaccines available faster than most other countries. Hungary has a solid base for opposing masks and vaccination—they are against whatever the government wants to do, even if it makes sense. Strangely, but not surpisingly, they are strongly influenced by Tucker Carlson.
Otherwise I agree that little Orban has big dreams for himself.
I replied to this twice but the reply is stuck in moderation.
“Why short-range anti-aircraft weapons but not fighters? ”
Are you qualified to answer your own question, Bob? Do you possess sufficient knowledge of the local situation to calculate the risks of giving this and other additional military help to Ukraine?
Good point, Mate. I am not. There may be issues involved here that I am not privy to or do not understand.
But I hasten to add that many US military people who are qualified to answer my question agree with me, that we should send the fighters and the superior ground-based anti-aircraft and missile systems.
And … you’d prefer to allow Putin to keep on killing people? How many must die before we who are sitting in our comfortable homes tonight sit up and take notice, before this nation ACTS? How many children do we consider an ‘acceptable loss’ in order to not turn Putin’s wrath in our direction?
“And … you’d prefer to allow Putin to keep on killing people? ”
Well, what if Putin decides to start killing my people as a result of my interference in the war?
Is it a simple matter to decide what the wisest course of action is as you try to reconcile the two basic needs: the need to make sure that a thug doesn’t roam freely and the need to protect the people closest to you?
Well, the difference between your thinking and mine is that I don’t see the people of my country as being any better, more worthy, or more special than the people of Ukraine. A life is a life. We cannot simply sit back and let Ukrainians keep being murdered to protect “our own” … not when our help might make a big difference in bringing the slaughter to an end more quickly.
“A life is a life.”
At this point, you are not talking about risking US lives, your own family’s lives but the lives of nations that are thousands of miles away from you. Do you believe you can make this choice for these people?
“We cannot simply sit back and let Ukrainians keep being murdered to protect “our own” … not when our help might make a big difference in bringing the slaughter to an end more quickly.”
… or escalate the war.
In summary, you are willing to risk and even sacrifice the lives of people far away from you based on the hypothesis that the “help” you are advocating will work as advertised.
I know only that the more nations come together in support of Ukraine, the quicker this war will end. Naturally, I don’t wish to see my family’s lives in danger, but … BUT … if we don’t stand up for what is right today, tomorrow it may well be our country that is under attack. And, I do believe in supporting nations like Ukraine that are fighting for people’s lives. No, my family’s lives are, in the grand scheme of things, no more important than anybody else’s anywhere in the world.
“How many children do we consider an ‘acceptable loss’. . . ?”
Oh, a half a million or so according to former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.
Put the blame where it belongs in the case you’re referring to, with Saddam Hussein.
No, it was sanctions by the US that caused those deaths. Sky-Daddy bless Amurika!
And the sanctions were in response to … ??? Cause and effect, Mr. S.
That’s not exactly what Albright said, and she apologized profusely for that remark in her memoir.
You’re right. Thanks not an exact quote. But the paraphrasing serves to get the point across. She advocated for war in a number of different cases-Iraq, Yugoslavia, etc. . . , plain and simple.
Those who advocate for more war should be at the front lines doing the killing and dying.
Duane, I oppose war. How do you suggest that Putin will be persuaded to stop killing and bombing Ukrainians? He is the one who sent his troops to invade Ukraine. Ukraine wants peace. What will convince Putin to stop the killing?
His death or incapacitation. He like, all of our presidents, have fallen into the trap of absolute power corrupting. There is no persuading him. He was and is wrong to have ordered the war. Only his death will bring this to an end. Yes, I wish him along with all the others who promote death and destruction dead.
My suggestion is that those who so vociferously promote war-“Send jets to Ukraine” be the ones at the front in the Ukraine and any other war zones such as Iraq, Syria, Yemen, etc. . . . Seems to me that if you are truly oppose war, you wouldn’t be encouraging the escalation of the war in the Ukraine.
Now to sit back and await the responses from those who believe war is the answer. And there will probably be many if the responses on this thread are any indication.
How do you feel about sitting back and watching atrocities? I would gladly go to the front lines. I wish I could fly a jet.
“How do you feel about sitting back and watching atrocities? I would gladly go to the front lines.”
What if this (American) participation will cause the war to spill over into other countries like Hungary, Romania, or even Finland? Is that OK?
Or Poland.
So you would be okay to let the war go on until Putin dies? He will be in office until 2036 . At least.
Is it possible that the war will end because of sanctions?
I hope that sanctions will end the war. Right now, Germany is still dependent on Russian oil and sends $2 billion every day for Russian oil. 55% of Germany’s oil is imported from Russia. Meanwhile the killing goes on, with no end in sight.
Which U.S. President had “absolute power”? I don’t know of any?
Máté, I really appreciate your input, it gives perspective and context. Ended up trying to educate myself a bit on Hungary’s history and the Ukraine-Hungary relationship. I was especially interested in how the most recent Ukrainian ‘language law’ (signed by Poroshenko just before his term of office ended) might relate. See what you think of this writer’s take: https://washington.mfa.gov.hu/eng/news/why-is-hungary-blocking-ukraines-nato-accession
I think talking about the treatment of minorities in Ukraine is not timely. Yes, ethnic Hungarians (and Russians) have not been treated well in Ukraine. But during the war, this conflict needs to be put aside. That’s exactly what Hungarians did: so far, they have helped over half a million Ukrainians (the vast majority of whom are not Hungarians and only speak Russian or Ukrainian) who fled the war and crossed into Hungary.
In my opinion, any military help for Ukraine needs to be evaluated carefully. If sending jets is evaluated by experts as viable, without any risk of escalating the war, then of course it needs to be done.
I appreciate all the people on this blog willing to sacrifice their lives, if needed, but what they need to realize is that their good intentions may result in the escalation of war and would sacrifice other people’s lives.
As you probably know, there is a good reason why there were so few escape attempts from concentration camps or even from Jewish ghettos during WWII. The reason is that if you escaped, there would have been far reaching consequences on other camp members and your family. Sacrificing one’s own life may turn out to be harmful to others.
Thanks, Máté [re: 4/7 9:09 reply]. I understand talking of minority protections in Ukraine is inappropriate during this war. What interested me was statements about Hungary having always been strongly supportive of Ukraine’s sovereignty/ borders– that their ‘no’ vote on Ukraine joining NATO was really ‘yes, if’ Ukraine dropped those laws/ protected minority rights including language in the public sphere. [Do you think that’s accurate?]
I liked very much the article’s explanation for people outside of Eastern Europe on how border-changes over years mean that its nations are multiple-ethnic mixes where emigration/ immigration was not a central feature. (He gave the example of his Slovakian great-grandfather whose country was named after differing ethnic groups 5 times in his life tho he never moved from his village). The point is made that the region’s political stability is contingent upon the protection of the rights of national minorities.
Reblogged this on Filosofa's Word and commented:
This post by Diane Ravitch is in and of itself worthy of a re-blog, but check out some of the accompanying commentary … very interesting! Thank you, Diane!!!
I’m sorry, but I cannot agree on this.
As some people are commenting here, sending fighter jets to the combat zone will increase further risk of escalating war that could prolong for an extended period of time.
There’s no doubt that MAD man’s action against Ukraine is an outright invasion, and illegal. Russia is spreading state propaganda on a daily basis. But that shouldn’t deflect us from the reality that US main stream media are inculcating pro-war sentiment in collective anger, pressuring Biden into doing more.
Clearly, mainstream media are portraying Biden as a coward for not doing enough. That’s ridiculous. He manages to minimize the risk by providing military aids in limited capacity, although it’s still gambling for him. I really don’t understand why so many corporate journalists want the US president to take a bold military action, which could get us nowhere but close to the door for WWIII.
I find it increasingly disturbing to see their selective coverage of war. Cable news like CNN and MSNBC are circulating talking points of neocons and pro-NATO warmongers who are calling for ‘No Fly Zone’ or sending troops. AP and PBS are portraying local militia Azov Battalion as a heroic figure while disregarding their glorification of neo-Nazi ideology and actions against local citizens(It’s not limited to this war. They have been threatening and assaulting [and even killing] civilians with US weapons on a daily basis for years.) That kind of behavior is not helping to advance moral cause against war aggression.
If you support sending fighter jets to Ukraine, that’s your prerogative. I just don’t feel comfortable echoing the narrative/talking point coming from the echo chamber of US corporate media.
We’re already sending weapons. No one is suggesting that NATO operate any warplanes sent to Ukraine. This would be another form of what we’re already doing – supply.
Given the reports of horrific war crimes, the terrible situation in Mariupol, and how Russia seems committed to perpetuating this war, I fear we will inevitably drift to a point where NATO gets directly involved. Before that happens, we should ensure we have sent Ukraine more powerful means to defend herself, to reduce the chance that NATO has to get involved.
Wise, Ben!
The only way to end this and limit the catastrophe is to commit overwhelming military assistance to Ukraine.
Your points are valid, though I think bringing up the topic of neo-nazi activities in Ukraine is irrelevant when discussing how to end this war.
Ken,
I don’t echo the corporate media, none of which to my knowledge, has endorsed sending Polish jets to Ukraine. I want the war to stop. Only one man can make it stop. I get sick watching the deaths of civilians in Ukraine and the deaths of young Russian men daily. How will this end?
Yes! I agree! How do we help make this a reality?
Meaning: I agree with Diane. Not with Mr. Watanabe. If anyone has specific ideas on how we can add pressure to the US or NATO or UN or EU or give to organizations that will help supply weapons, please share that info or those ideas with me. Thank you.
“The time has come for the Russian war crimes in Ukraine to be the last manifestation on Earth of such evil.”
–President Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Russia must be driven back from Ukraine, and Putin must be indicted by the ICC or by a UN Special Tribunal, as Slobodan Milošević was before him, for his crimes, which have appalled the world.
Many, many knowledgeable people in or formerly in the foreign services, intelligence services and military services of the United States and NATO are calling for the fighters and more robust ground-based anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems to be sent to Ukraine.