Robert Hubbell again: The Florida bill to ban teaching about gender and sexuality just went from reprehensible to depraved. Now Republicans propose that school administrators must inform parents if they think a student is gay or face civil lawsuits.
He writes:
Florida Republicans proposed a bill that would prohibit school districts from “encourag[ing] classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in primary grade levels or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students.” As originally crafted, the bill singles out sexual orientation as a prohibited topic for discussion—creating an implicit stigma for LGBTQ students. That reprehensible bill is about to get worse.
GOP Rep. Joe Harding proposed an amendment requiring school administrators to disclose “personal information” about students to parents within six weeks of learning that information or face lawsuits for civil damages. State Rep. Carlos Guillermo Smith, an Orlando Democrat and LGBTQ activist, called the amendment “horrifying” and said,
[I]f the concept becomes law, it would put some of Florida’s most at-risk teens into precarious situations where they feel more isolated and unable to talk to adults about their situations.
See also, The Hill, Amendment to ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill in Florida requires schools to out students to their parents within six weeks.
Let’s hope that the national outcry over this bill, and the amendment, will prevent its passage. But let me pause here to make a point about “identity politics.” Readers frequently complain that Democrats should stop engaging in “identity politics.” Those readers have adopted a right-wing talking point designed to deter Democrats from defending groups targeted by Republicans because of their identity. In Florida (and everywhere else, for that matter), it is Republicans who are making identity an issue by seeking to discriminate against people based on their inherent human attributes. If rising to the defense to those targeted groups is “identity politics,” we need more of it, not less—as Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill demonstrates. But most importantly, Democrats should stop spreading the false rumor that Democrats are focused on identity politics. They are not; they are focused on making the lives of all Americans better.
Diane Ravitch's blog 
When I think I can’t be surprised by vicious attacks on our kids and public schools, I read about this reprehensible legislation. Former GOP Senator John Chaffee from Rhode Island ewas a good friend and shared a thought: “There is a fringe of my party if given the chance will take the most extreme position.” This is way beyond the pale. Just a note–he was one of seven moderate Republican US Senators to block Ronold Reagans severe education budget cuts in the 80’s. Today, there would be none.
I think Chafee and Mark Hatfield might be the last two decent Republicans who served in the Senate.
John Chafee was a gentleman and knew how to get different sides of an argument to agree on some common ground. “The Great Negotiator”. I have often thought that we need someone such as John today, although I also think he’s most likely spinning in his grave. He is missed here in RI.
I had the honor of meeting Chafee twice when I worked in the Senate, once at a congressional reception, another time at a wedding where we were both guests. At the wedding we talked for about 20 minutes about Cold War history, he as a navy veteran, me as a former kid and teenager who spent a lot of time in East and West Germany from the mid 70s to late 80s. He was genuinely interested in my views. We disagreed about a lot of details and laughed together as we agreed we could understand each others’ point of view. We parted as friendly acquaintances and, I think, respectful of each other. I saw him one more time passing in the hall in the Hart Senate Office Building. He recognized me and said, “Been thinking about our talk!” He was outwardly a gruff man, but inwardly a real sweetheart who cared about others, especially those who disagreed with him but could explain why. He seemed to enjoy honest political discussions. And he was quite unassuming, never thinking of his role as a senator as being in any way superior to anyone else. He truly was a citizen. Much like I disagreed politically with Bob Dole, I still respected him immensely. Same with Chafee.
Greg- As governor, he spoke at graduation at the high school at which I taught and while I think he used the same basic graduation address for most of the high schools, he was always respectful of the graduates, their families and the faculty and staff. Worked briefly for one of his campaigns for governor. I fully agree with you re both
Chafe and Dole.
I’ve noticed that this blog has never discussed an identity politics issue that infuriates most people outside the far Left. Should anatomical males be allowed to compete against female athletes? The science is overwhelming and settled: XY-chromosomed humans who have gone through puberty have significant physical advantages in elite athletic competitions compared to XX-chromosomed humans. Will anyone here defy the woke orthodoxy on this issue?
That’s not what this bill is about.
The host used the term identity politics several times in a favorable light. The issue I raised pertains to identity politics. You’re dodging the question, as I suspect most/all commenters here will.
Leslie, I have never used the term “identity politics.” If I used it here “several times,” please provide evidence. That’s MAGA verbiage.
What is it about then?
The term “identity politics” is used four times in the last paragraph of the original posting. It’s not clear if you are quoting Robert Hubbell or if that paragraph is yours verbatim. But you obviously approve of what is known as identity politics. Most people don’t, including many liberal writers who lament the current Democratic fixation on identity matters. That’s not just a MAGA concern, as anyone who reads a wide diversity of opinions knows.
Leslie,
You have no integrity. Your mischaracterization of what Diane wrote is a blatant lie, which makes you a good Republican but a very bad person without even a modicum of integrity.
Diane wrote:
“Readers [LIKE LESLIE] frequently complain that Democrats should stop engaging in “identity politics.” Those readers [LIKE LESLIE] have adopted a right-wing talking point designed to deter Democrats from defending groups targeted by Republicans because of their identity. In Florida (and everywhere else, for that matter), it is Republicans [LIKE LESLIE] who are making identity an issue by seeking to discriminate against people based on their inherent human attributes. If rising to the defense to those targeted groups is “identity politics,” we need more of it, not less—as Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill demonstrates. But most importantly, Democrats should stop spreading the false rumor that Democrats are focused on identity politics. They are not; they are focused on making the lives of all Americans better.”
As we can see, it is Leslie who is doing exactly what Diane Ravitch correctly pointed out right wingers do — accusing others of using identity politics when they are the ones who are obsessed with identity politics.
Actually, I didn’t write those words about “identity politics.” Robert Hubbell did.
But “Leslie” is claiming that Robert Hubbell is using “identity politics” for political gain, when what Robert Hubbell is doing is pointing out how people like “Leslie” who are right wingers are using the phrase “identity politics” for political gain while they hypocritically accuse others – like you – of doing exactly what she is doing.
Leslie is taking a page from the troll farm handbook where right wing trolls keep using the term “identity politics” and then accuse Democrats of using the term “identity politics”. Leslie and her ilk want laws that discriminate against people based on their identity. and then they claim that anyone who dares to criticize them is the one who is “uncivil” and engaging in identity politics.
flerp does that, too. All the time. He will applaud a completely uncivil statement about trans students, and then accuse those who call him out for amplifying and supporting the idea that all trans students are mentally ill and needing to be treatment as being “uncivil”.
Too many times these folks are legitimized and enabled, when all of them should be marginalized. Do you really think Leslie has any desire for civil debate? She just wants to accuse you of things and then attack you. It doesn’t matter how you respond because she just repeats her talking points.
To “Leslie” if she is a female and votes Republican-
Your issue is minutiae and used to deflect.
Peter Thiel said women voting in a capitalistic democracy is an oxymoron. Just as the votes of Black people have been disenfranchised, so will women’s. The ex-Mrs. Bill Gates who well knows her libertarian husband and Silicon Valley’s goals, said she’s losing sleep over the loss of women’s rights.
Perpetuating the current demographic hierarchy is the GOP goal.
You’re dodging the issue and engaging in the ad hominem that is typical of most commenters here, and especially of you. It’s not minutiae to the girls and women who are affected by XY people competing against them. You badly need to expand your reading outside the far Left bubble; most mainstream liberals don’t believe in the extreme transgender agenda.
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/watching-lia-thomas-win?utm_source=url
Leslie, I have come from the future to tell you that you will soon be told that Bari Weiss is a right-winger. The hour is nigh!
flerp
Remember the John M. Olin Fellow that you described as a liberal, recently?
“Leslie”, approximate the number of women/girls competing against someone you think they shouldn’t be, based on sex, in a given year.
The U.S. pop. is about 350-360 mil.
An observation- a commenter claiming to be outside of the right wing bubble would have more credibility if he/she wasn’t defensive about Peter Thiel’s public statement.
Are the complaints against the Koch’s Ilya Shapiro at Georgetown Catholic University school of law ad hominem attacks or, is his “Black lesser women” tweet, an ad hominem attack against potential SCOTUS jurists?
Flerp! and Leslie Mattson seem to believe that Katie Ledecky is a biological male because Katie swam faster times than a biological male and they keep telling us that isn’t possible.
I really want to hear their theory of why Katie Ledecky is faster than a woman who flerp and Leslie insist is only winning because she is a “biological man”.
I also don’t understand their obsession with trans students. I hope it isn’t because of their own insecurities that their own kids might be influenced to become trans themselves by those other students. It doesn’t work that way.
Bari Weiss is so far to the right that even a very conservative student at Harvard-Westlake had to call out her ridiculous lies about his private school.
I have no idea why flerp is obsessed with mischaracterizing Bari Weiss as something other than a conservative hack these days but when a 17 year old conservative is more thoughtful than this overpaid former NYT columnist, it’s hard to take even her most rabid fans on here seriously.
And I bet that 17 year old conservative student doesn’t even believe all trans students should be treated for their mental illness the way flerp! does. Bravo, flerp. Or should I say Brava, flerp.
A Trump-appointed federal judge who opined that, “abortion is a moral tragedy,” has chosen to position himself as Ilya Shapiro’s champion.
Any questions about racial and gender prejudice in the web of lawyers from the GOP/Koch network? Any questions about conservative religion in that web?
Then, there’s John Eastman who is currently in the news. He’s part of the leadership of Robert P. George’s National Organization for Marriage. Cleta Mitchell was NOM’s lawyer.
Linda, who, John Pfaff? You still think he’s a right winger?
Right wing James M. Olin Foundation created for the explicit purpose of funding conservatives and conservative University of Chicago economics department.
Slate described “James Ho: The Trump Bench” (10-25-2019).
Ho authored a memo that defended the legality of torture, clerked for Clarence Thomas, volunteered at First Liberty, which “purports to defend religious freedom often by promoting anti-LGBTQ discrimination”, gives police carte blanc.
Some GOP white men and women and their families aren’t going to be as protected by their demographics as they think they will be. I won’t have any sympathy for them in the authoritarian regime.
There’s no surprise that Ho would be in Ilya Shapiro’s camp.
Actually, Diane said yesterday that she was not sure whether biological males should be allowed to compete against female athletes.
FLERP, thanks for acknowledging. There are many times when I don’t know the right answer, and I admit it.
Ms. Ravitch, you are clearly dodging the question I posed about anatomical males competing against females because of fear that you’ll incur the wrath of the woke mob. You constantly claim to be pro-science, as opposed to the right-wing yokels whose views on scientific questions are motivated by ideology. The science on the inherent physical advantages of almost all males after puberty is settled beyond all doubt – and you and all the other moral preeners here know it. That especially includes “Linda” who also refuses to answer the question out of cowardice.
Leslie, you are obviously a newcomer to the blog. I commented yesterday that I was doubtful about allowing Lia Williams to compete in women’s sports because of Lia’s physical advantages as a swimmer (e.g., longer arms). So your very hostile assertion that I was afraid “to incur the wrath of the woke mob” was made either from ignorance or malice. Or both. What’s your problem? Rule #1 of this blog is that you don’t insult the host, me. You just lied about me and insulted me. Rule #2 is civility. You failed on both counts.
Leslie Mattson,
You posed a question that I hope you won’t dodge about “anatomical males competing against females”.
Leslie Mattson, I want to be certain you don’t “dodge” this question — do you absolutely support Lia Thompson swimming as long as she doesn’t have a penis?
You keep saying your big concern is whether she is “anatomically male”. Or were you lying?
And here is another question for you to dodge — if a trans man has a penis, will you allow him to compete in sports?
Are you willing to state for the record that you aren’t trying to punish trans women but you just want fairness and that’s why you welcome trans women in all other aspects of life?
Just tell the truth, Leslie. Don’t pretend you would support trans students of both genders as long as they both competed in male sports when you hate trans men as much as you hate trans women even though their participation in sports doesn’t affect anyone.
Ms. Ravitch,
I hadn’t read this blog for several weeks because I still work full-time and have limited hours to read online, let alone comment frequently. If you oppose anatomical men competing with female athletes, say so directly. I understand the fear that any public figure has about opposing the woke mob; any dissent results in all manner of insults being hurled, in this case “transphobia.” And your claim that you require civility on this blog is risible. Every time I’ve ever ventured into the comments section the ad hominem is thick, and any commenters who differ in the least from the party line are attacked in very personal terms, e.g. Flerp! in this very thread.
Nonetheless, this thread bemuses me. Someone actually asked for scientific evidence that proves the physical advantages male athletes have over female athletes. Good grief. Here’s just one of many sources for people who actually value science over wokeism.
https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/
P.S. to “Linda”: Duke Law School is quite far Left, so any depiction by you that it is right-wing is beyond absurd.
Do not accuse me of refusing to comment on a topic when I did comment on it just yesterday.
The readers of this blog are not a “woke mob.” That’s insulting to every one of them.
People who read the blog agree and disagree on all sorts of topics.
There is no “woke mob” here.
And I have never been afraid to say what I know and believe.
Your accusation is insulting and false.
Diane,
You will notice that Leslie Mattson avoided the question about whether trans men should be allowed to compete in men’s sports. All of the arguments she cites about an unfair biological advantage don’t apply anymore, so why would she avoid having to state her opinion?
This was NEVER about fairness. That’s why Leslie hasn’t acknowledged your perfectly reasonable answer that you were not sure. It’s clearly a complicated issue as Leslie herself knows since she still has been unwilling to say whether trans men (who were born biologically female) can participate in sports with other men.
Leslie, you are the one who isn’t answering whether trans men – who have no biological superiority to other men – can compete on men’s teams. I don’t think you will answer because you want to falsely accuse Diane Ravitch of doing what you are doing yourself.
I do not claim that the readers of this blog are part of the woke mob. But if Diane Ravitch were to state publicly that Lia Thomas had an unfair advantage in the recent Ivy League swimming meet, she (DR) would be pilloried from post-to-post as a transphobic.
I agree with what Flerp! wrote. Transgender people should be treated – like all other people – with kindness and compassion. But there should be no rush to permanently change one’s body via surgery or chemicals – especially for minor children. And woke ideology cannot change the fact that humans who go through male puberty have on average significant physical superiority to women in almost all athletic categories. This is NOT a right-wing opinion, as the first essay I linked to shows. If you want Republicans to win an overwhelming victory in the 2022 Congressional elections, continue with the woke nonsense. Likewise for Trump winning the Presidency in 2024. Be aware that San Francisco voters – San Francisco! – just rejected extreme wokeism in the school board recall election.
Leslie, I already said—twice—that I think Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage. I also agreed with FLERP that surgery is a last resort. Why are you hectoring me? No one here is “woke,” which is MAGA talk to intimidate people from caring about injustice and inequality. Yes, I am awake to racism, to homophobia, to sexism. No, the San Francisco school board recall was not an affirmation of bigotry. It was an unnecessary recall financed by billionaires like Arthur Rock, who hope to destabilize public schools. The pro-recall side outspent the anti-recall side by a vast amount.
I would like to join the woke mob. Sounds cool. I’m guessing lots of coffee to stay woke. Does anyone have the number I can call to become a member? And how much are the dues? Also, do I need to buy a uniform?
Wait, come to think of it, it’s a mob, like the one that stormed the Capitol, like a lynch mob, so there likely isn’t an “organization” per se. All I probably need to do to join is grab a tiki torch and go run over some innocent people with a Dodge Challenger, maybe commit an act of terrorism against a school board, or simply get the right tattoo. Maybe all I have to do is troll websites with distracting queries.
I jest, of course, but the award for best anti-troll internetting today goes to FLERP!, 1:33 pm reply.
Leslie-
You may want to read, the 2-24-2021 article, “In its quest to become anti-racist, Duke must reckon with its past that echoes into the present.” Anecdotally, I know a Duke law grad who chose Duke over Princeton. He was/is GOP and, IMO, based on comments he made, was/is racist. He expressed the opinion that he thought Duke would be a better fit for him than Princeton.
Ilya Shapiro (Koch), and the professor this week who called on a student in front of the class with the address, “Mr. ChinaMan,” presumably both thought they would be good fits at Georgetown.
Btw- before you refer to Princeton as liberal, read about the criticism of Nikole Hannah Jones from professors at the school and review Robert P. George’s politics.
You should also read Jane Mayer’s info about the universities targeted by wealthy libertarians to promote the right wing view using money to gain access and to promote the agenda they preferred.
Leslie “insults” and makes “false statements”. The GOP playbook that he uses as a tutorial calls for both. And, Leslie goes on the offense similar to Matt Goetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jim Jordan, Trump, Rand Paul,…
Leslie abandoned “snowflake” in preference for the “woke” disparagement with the same timing as Fox.
and…
1. Please cite the source your statement about the “overwhelming” science (so NOW y’all like science)
Please cite he source of your data on higher %age of students who have chromosome change
AND….
Students growing up in poverty perform lower on standardized tests
School districts in higher SES communities have higher test scores
Students living in different households acquire varying number of vocabulary words entering kindergarten
AND THIS blog is about adults characterizing a child’s sexual orientation. It is as stated DEPRAVED. There is NO BASIS upon which an adult could do that, should do that, and would do that.
Two right wing talking points/machinations
(1) media writers’ deliberate separation of gay rights attacks from the source- the alliance of conservative Catholics and evangelicals
(2) media’s deliberate nomenclature, “culture war,” which creates the impression that attacks on the rights of women, POC and the LGBTQ community aren’t the province of allied right wing religious.
The consequence of the above is it permits conservative religious to create a false construct. The construct created is religion is under attack and “religious freedom” is a legitimate argument to eliminate separation of church and state. The truth is that theocrats are achieving great success in taking away freedom.
Good grief, the GOP Florida leadership keeps doing stupid with not the slightest hint of shame or restraint. Quite the opposite, it is proud of its horrible proposals and legislation. Who would want to teach in Florida with all these nutty putrid ideas coming from GOP politicians. At long last, have they (the FL GOP) no shame, as Joe Welch might say if he were alive today.
Republicans keep passing more of these regressive laws with punitive vigilante clauses attached to them. These subjective and dangerous laws are also designed to put public schools on the defensive. Conservatives are wearing their bias on their sleeves.
Seems like a terrible amendment, and hopefully it won’t pas, given that (to my knowledge and in my experience) parents are not the first people most gay teenagers come out to, often for very good reasons.
I’ll leave the partisan arguments about who likes identity politics more to the partisans.
You turn everything into a partisan argument where you accuse others of “liking” identity politics when you are the one who is most obsessed with it. You just gave positive reinforcement to someone who falsely accused Diane Ravitch of using “identity politics” so give it a break already. The ugly things you imply about trans kids are beyond the pale. I certainly hope your kids don’t have any as classmates as I can’t imagine what you have taught them about their classmates’ “mental illness”.
Keep it civil, my dear friend.
I am very civil to people who don’t say nasty things about trans students. If your definition of “uncivil” is that anyone who objects when you say nasty things about trans students being mentally ill is “uncivil”, then I guess I meet that criteria.
But the fact that you believe it is “civil” to say such ugly things about trans students having a mental illness they need to be treated for says it all.
You don’t even have the integrity to apologize for that – presumably because you still believe that saying that trans students have a mental disorder is a perfectly “civil” thing to say and you will continue to attack anyone who objects as “uncivil”. Brava, flerp! Or is it Bravo, flerp! ?
NYCPP, I think people who suffer from gender dysphoria — and they do suffer — should be treated with kindness and compassion. I also think they should receive counseling. And I think that surgical or chemical treatments — i.e. removing breasts or genitals, or administering hormones or puberty blockers — should be an absolute last resort, rather than a quick response designed to “affirm” someone’s gender identity. This goes triple for children. I don’t care if this offends you or anyone else.
I agree with you, FLERP. Surgical changes to one’s body should be a last resort. People may change their minds.
FLERP! with spot on, politely compassionate truth saying wins the internet again! That’s twice in one day. Must be a record.
Diane,
No one I know disagrees with what you said about surgical changes being a last resort. FLERP! got you to reinforce his straw man argument. Surgical changes are NEVER a “quick response” so flerp! tried to change the subject by saying that he is against something that everyone is already against. It’s much easier to get plastic surgery to make a real person look like a mannequin than to get gender reassignment surgery.
The reason FLERP! is angry at me is that I disagreed vehemently with something he posted about trans teens.
FLERP! applauded the idea that ALL trans teens — every last one — suffers from a mental disorder and needs therapy to help cure them of this supposed disorder where they believe they are a different gender.
Can you imagine the harm done if that was the kind of therapy that teens got — therapy to teach them there was no such thing as being trans, and every person who believes they are a different gender suffers from a mental illness?
It is the OPPOSITE of the type of therapy that those teens should be getting. But flerp! was pushing the absolutely false narrative that it was adults (like “bad” therapists who aren’t telling those kids they are just mentally ill, not trans) who were making teens believe they were trans! It is absurd and also ignorant.
FLERP! understands nothing about being trans — he also posted that adults tell boys who don’t like sports or have long hair that they are really girls! He totally invented his own reality of why he thinks kids are trans and absolutely disregarded the reality — that trans kids don’t believe they are a different gender because some adult who noticed they were good at sports told a girl she was really a boy, or some adult who noticed a boy liked cooking told the boy he was really a girl.
FLERP! totally disregarded that students who are trans don’t feel that way because some adult “taught” them to believe they are a different gender. Imagine the harm to those kids when their classmates’ parents are teaching their own kids that all trans kids are mentally ill and need treatment and some adult must have led them astray.
When flerp posted here “I also think they should receive counseling”, he leaves out that the kind of counseling he supported in his posts was counseling to teach those kids that there is no such thing as being trans and they suffer from a mental disorder.
It is not “kindness and compassion” to offer therapy that tells a teen that there is no such thing as being trans and they suffer from a mental disorder.
When that is reinforced here by flerp! and others, they should be called out. If that makes me “uncivil” then I am in the wrong place.
NYC PSP,
You can express any opinion you wish. I asked you to stop the name-calling. It distracts from the issues you care about.
leftcoastteacher says “truth saying wins the internet again! ”
Just to be clear, lct, are you saying that you agree with flerp! that there is no such thing as being trans and that teens who believe they are a different gender should be seeing therapists who treat them for the mental disorder of not understanding that they are the gender they were born with?
Because that is the “counseling” that flerp! was supporting that I objected to. I don’t believe that a therapist who treats a trans teen for a mental illness and tells that that there is no such thing as being trans is being “kind” or “compassionate”, but maybe you do. In which case, I see why you agree with flerp!
When you read someone who is anti-trans – someone who doesn’t believe that a person can be “trans” — saying that they support “therapy”, you might want to get the details of what kind of therapy they mean.
I think people should go to counseling before getting any elective surgery. It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with a person if they go to counseling. Therapists simply help people identify thoughts and emotions they wouldn’t be able to be in touch with without a little assistance. The direction of therapy is dictated by the patient, not the therapist. That’s, anyway, what they taught me in all those psych classes I took to earn my degree. Fact is being human isn’t easy, no matter the gender. Someone to lend a gentle ear and some professional insight usually doesn’t hurt.
We digress, however, from the post. The anti-gay bill is legislative overreach. If one of my students brings up a conflict in my class, I must be able to deal with it with compassion, not with my or anyone else’s personal opinion.
“The direction of therapy is dictated by the patient, not the therapist.”
I agree with this.
The problem is that if people like flerp keep promoting the view — as flerp did in previous posts — that there is no such thing as being “trans” and it is just a mental disorder, what they mean by “counseling” is not what you are talking about. It is about a therapist telling a trans teen that he is mentally ill and that there is no such thing as being “trans”. Is that being kind and compassionate?
I agree with all of you – including flerp! – that there shouldn’t be a rush to surgery. (Is that even a problem that anyone here has ever heard of, or is it like CRT and a manufactured danger that doesn’t exist?)
Since getting gender reassignment surgery is already a very cumbersome process, I have no idea why flerp even brought that up except in his usual disingenuous way to distract from what he means by “counseling”.
My disagreement with flerp is and continues to be flerp’s support of the view that “counseling” should be teaching teens that they have a mental illness and there is no such thing as being trans.
And it’s more than me not agreeing. I think it is very harmful to teens to promote a view of “counseling” that tells teens who believe they are a different gender that they are mentally ill and there is no such thing as being trans.
The disagreement between flerp and me has nothing to do with rushing to surgery. It is about pushing the harmful narrative that teens cannot be trans (since trans don’t exist) and need therapy in order to cure them of their belief that they are trans.
I hope that educators on here do not have the same view of trans teens as flerp!. If they believe that all teens are whatever gender they were born as and if a teen doesn’t accept that, they are mentally ill, the fact that they have “compassion” for the teen’s supposed mental illness is not exactly comforting.
LCT,
Maybe this will help you better understand it.
The anti-abortionists set up “abortion counseling” places whose goal is not to provide real counseling for women considering terminating a pregnancy and the hard choices they face. Many women walk in thinking they are getting counseling about making that hard choice, and instead they experience the pro-life’s definition of “abortion counseling” , which is all about making a woman believe that she would be doing something immoral and wrong if she had an abortion.
Those places are just as disingenuous as some anti-trans folks here and say “We just support therapy and counseling”. They could just admit that they counsel women not to have abortions, but they aren’t honest. They fool women who believe they are coming for real counseling, not someone telling them that abortion is evil.
If you had no idea someone was rabidly anti-abortion, when you heard that person saying that they believe that women seeking abortions should be treated with compassion and kindness and have “counseling”, you take them at their word and don’t realize that they mean “counseling” that supports their anti-abortion beliefs.
If you have no idea that someone was posting all kinds of anti-trans rhetoric and denying the very existence of trans people, you probably don’t realize that when they say they support “counseling”, it is a very specific kind of counseling that supports their anti-trans beliefs.
Can you imagine if anti-trans folks took over the school counseling for students questioning their gender identity and teachers were fooled into supporting this because the anti-trans folks presented it as simply “counseling”?
Flerp could end this right now by simply saying that teens questioning their identity will be greatly harmed by going to therapists who believe that there is no such thing as being trans and these teens have a mental disorder.
But given flerp’s previous anti-trans posts, is “counseling” similar to the type of counseling that anti-abortion folks say they support?
LisaM: No one is born in the wrong body or with the wrong brain. This is a mental illness that needs talk therapy until it subsides.
FLERP!: Brava, LisaM. Or maybe I should have said “Bravx.”
The only thing that “offends” me is when people who support this kind of “counseling” for teens are being disingenuous about what kind of therapy they want trans teens to have.
The suicide risk for trans teens is sky high. So yes, I am offended if their teachers give a lot of positive reinforcement to those who advocate for those teens getting “counseling” that tells those teens they have a mental illness and they need therapy until their mental illness subsides.
Touchy. I said any elective surgery. But let’s calm down. Today is a new day.
This lady has been following the $$$ for a few years now. Ofc, some here will label her as a right wing troll because the only media that will pick her up are very right leaning/conservative….she is a Democrat who feels abandoned by her party (as do I). All I have to say is that children and young adults are being harmed and one of them is mine so these issues are very personal for me. I won’t respond to ranters and bloviators who see this as nothing more than a right wing talking point to “get the base riled up.” The great hand of the free market has now reached the children. How low can they go?
https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/lgbtq-a-front-for-the-techno-medical-complex
Lisa,
I know you are very upset about issues in your family. I know you are hostile to normalizing transgender changes. FYI, I am married to my dearest friend, Mary. We lead a very staid, one might even say conservative, life. We are devoted grandparents. Mary is a committed Roman Catholic who attends Mass every Sunday. Our closest friends are professional women and men.
Please, for my sake, don’t go into an anti-gay rant.
Ms Ravitch….I am not anti gay! I have family members and friends who are gay. This is about children and young adults being hurt. This is about gay rights being eroded, women’s rights being eroded. My socially active, gay friends are upset that their groups have been taken over and are being “used” to push this nonsense. This is what Capitalism combined with Tech has done. Ignoring an issue does not make it go away or get any better…..cut the cancer out before it kills the host.
Lisa, there are a very tiny number of people who identify as transgender. I’m not going to treat them as a “cancer” or pray that they go away. They have no role in my life except as a ruse for rightwing politicians to attack everyone who is gay.
Diane Ravitch,
LisaM’s child’s experience is important. LisaM, no one here is questioning the choices that you make to help your child when your child is suffering. Your posts demonstrate clearly that you are a caring and involved parent.
However, I do question when you make completely unwarranted and frankly – absolutely false – assumptions that every kid is like yours.
The suicide rate for trans teens is sky high and the idea that the ONLY therapy that those trans students would get would be to teach them to accept that there is no such thing as being trans, that they are mentally ill, and that they need therapy until they accept the gender they were born with, is wrong. That was the kind of therapy flerp kept applauding.
And it bothers me that I have seen teachers like LCT praise flerp and keep posting how much they approve therapy (after praising flerp), without even once warning that the kind of therapy that flerp is talking about is not something they should be advocating. It is therapy that denies there is such a thing as being trans.
Trans students are not being served if their teachers don’t even try to understand the difference between “anti-trans” therapy and therapy designed to help teens understand their gender. They are going to suffer if their teachers keep praising the folks who are offering “therapy” when what those folks are offering is “anti-trans” therapy.
Diane Ravitch, I know trans kids and none of them get rushed into surgery. And adults go through more counseling and therapy before gender reassignment surgery than any other surgery. So why are flerp, LisaM and LCT concerned that adults are “rushed into surgery” without getting a lot more counseling than anyone who has surgery ever gets? Why all the innuendo about how teens questioning their genders are “rushed into surgery” and getting no therapy? It isn’t true.
It is because the kind of “counseling” that LisaM and flerp want to impose on teens is therapy that tells them there is no such thing as being trans, that they have a mentally illness, and they need therapy until they accept the gender identity they were born with.
The fact that teachers on here support folks who advocate for that kind of therapy and don’t seem to be willing to criticize that kind of therapy is revealing to me. I do think there are still many teachers who agree with flerp! and LisaM that what trans teens need is anti-trans therapy. But it is a very damaging approach and hurts many teens and I find it concerning that I am the only person here who is actually saying that kind of anti-trans therapy that flerp! believes in is NOT good for teens.
I just hope there are teachers out there who take the time to understand the difference between anti-trans “therapy” and real therapy for teens struggling with gender identity where the therapist actually accepts that trans people do exist. Their students need those kinds of caring teachers. Not ones who hear an anti-trans person advocating “therapy” and praise those anti-trans people for being so “compassionate” and right on.
Reblogged this on What's Gneiss for Education.
Have any of the big ed reform groups spoken out in opposition to this?
Jeb Bush is ed reform’s ideological and policy leader. What’s his take on this bill?
Let me guess- lock step agreement with no dissenters.
Amazing how the far Right has completely captured “ed reform”. The liberal ed reformers didn’t even put up the slightest resistance. They were useful to the Right for a while, bashing public schools and promoting privatization, but now they’re no longer useful so have been discarded.
Chiara, you are so right.
Bill Gates, Walton heirs, ,…- they’re not liberal and never were.
I’m certain that they don’t feel “discarded,” having achieved their goals.
It’s similar to the misperception that Harvard is liberal. If Harvard pivots slightly and promotes the privatization of all national and state parks, we can hope people recognize the university isn’t political, it’s money driven.
The school reform pretense on the left was a PR strategy to muddy the waters. At the highest levels, Wall Street’s Bill Clinton and Silicon Valley’s Obama were in on the scam.
The Black “civil rights” leaders who continue to attack public schools were and are making book for themselves.
I’m shocked that there is still an attempt to spin it differently.
Yep.
Have we seen a single bill out of Florida this term that does anything at all to “improve” any public school anywhere in the state?
They spend whole legislative sessions on this stuff. Have they accomplished anything useful or practical at all?
Nothing in Ohio that’s for sure. They’ve spent the last 6 months “banning critical race theory”. The 6 months prior to that was solely devoted to yet another voucher bill. They haven’t done any actual work on public schools for years.
Americans should read Slate’s article about “Trump-appointed federal Judge” James Ho (7-16-2018). “Christians always win,” is the summary by the author of Slate’s article about a court ruling in favor of the USCCB in its refusal to disclose info.
James Ho is championing Ilya Shapiro’s continued appointment at Georgetown Catholic University after Shapiro’s tweet, “lesser Black women.”
Jefferson- in all countries, in all ages, the priest aligns with the despot.
I’m surprised by the number of Republicans who have acquiesced to a U.S. government run by the conservative bishops of the Catholic Church and by the aligned wealthy right wing religious who promote unfettered capitalism, sexism and racism as God’s agenda, especially given the Roman Catholic hierarchy’s long, checkered history.
I’m surprised at the number of Democratic-voting Catholics who facilitated the transfer of power through tribalism.
There’s no way to ignore the religious training of all of the 6 conservative SCOTUS justices.
“Linda”,
I’ve read your writing here numerous times. I’m a very secular agnostic, and you are an anti-Christian bigot who would never write about Muslim extremists the way you write about Christians, and especially about Catholics.
Well, considering the fact the if the Catholic “Church” were not a “Church” or “faith,” in a normal world the Catholic “Church” would have been shut down as a a racketeering sex ring decades ago. And those who profess to have faith and are ashamed of being associated with deviants who parade as moral leaders should have the courage of their convictions to abandon this “Church” and actually crate a community of faith centered on ethics, respect for others, and decency.
I could easily cite thousands of pages of cases in the United States, but that would take most of the year, so here’s a good source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_cases_in_the_United_States
Or what about Australia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_in_Australia
Or what about virtually every country in the world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_by_country
Now is this bigotry or truth?
That fact of the matter is simple: if you defend the Catholic Church as a bastion of faith and ignore these facts, please shut the f#@k up.
One more thing, Jackie: when you get the list of Islamic mullahs who are systematically raping young children and using their religion as a political shield, please post them here. Same with any religion. We’re equal opportunity around here.
And if you’re game, I’m more than happy to discuss tribal schools in Canada and Catholic orphanages in Africa.
I completely agree with Linda. If you are making excuses for a global child sex ring because it calls itself a religion, you’re really not worth giving the time of day. If you believe in the ethical teachings of the mythical figure called Jesus Christ–which I do, I just can’t find any contemporary historical accounts that this person actually existed–you don’t need this criminal structure of a Catholic “Church” to practice your faith. Just live it day to day. With consistency. You don’t need a goddamned religion to live like a ethical, feeling human being.
an ethical
“secular agnostic”
In other words, hedging my bets because I really don’t have any clue or ability to make decisions about anything at all.
Kind of like claiming to be liberal and railing against any Black intellectual as a grifter.
Jackie: if you disagree, make a logical counter argument.
Greg: what is a Godd&$@ religion? Sounds weird to me.
A number of years ago, I happened by the desk of my CEO’s secretary, a woman who was, perhaps, about sixty, and invariably kind and considerate. She was weeping, so I stopped to see what was wrong and if I might be able to comfort her. “They covered it all up,” she said. “At the highest levels. They moved these priests around and hushed it up and allowed them to keep abusing children. All my life I have gone to mass. Been a good Catholic. I’ve done what they told me to do. Believed what they told me to believe. Given to the Church. No more. I’m done.” She spat these words. She was furious, as she had every right to be.
She was reacting to the Boston Globe revelations about the coverups.
Roy, one variety of Buddhism, in the Theravada tradition, is a nontheistic religion.
And, Roy, modern Shinto is a nature-based and “leaderless” religion that does not worship a single god or a bunch of gods from a pantheon but, rather, in which worship what are called Kami, or nature spirits. Two books that I highly recommend:
The Essence of Shinto, by Motohisa Yamakage, and Shinto: The Kami Way, by Sokyo Ono, William Woodard, and Sadao Sakamoto.
Let me restate that, Roy. Most varieties of Buddhism, including the Mahayana and Hinayana/Theravada traditions, are nontheistic. There are theistic varieties of Buddhism, but these are not mainstream.
The earliest Buddhist text, the Pali Tipitaka, is distinctly nontheistic.
Roy, you’re a Southerner. I once was. You know that’s how most people talk. Godd@#@d was in as common use as the word “the” when I was growing up there. But the proper pronunciation is got damn. Perhaps a more acceptable term is god forsaken.
And, Roy, Christians got most native American religious belief and practice entirely wrong. They viewed it through their own lens, which made a sharp distinction between the physical world and the spiritual world, whereas the Santee Dakota, for example, and the ancient Shinto practitioners, instead saw the physical world as identical to the spiritual world, the only difference being whether one was viewing it in an ordinary state (showing it to us as the physical world) or in a state of vision (showing it to us as the spiritual world). The same is true in Australian Aboriginal religions and, I would argue, in the earliest forms of Greek, Norse, and Hindu religion, before these developed into polytheisms. And so, almost every account recorded by white anthropologists got this wrong. For an accurate account of Santa Dakota religion, see The Soul of the Indian (1911) by Ohíye S’a, aka Charles Alexander Eastman.
Jackie
Muslims are 1.1% of the U.S. population.
You want to give up the rights that women have won and live like the Irish women did during the Great Hunger when 1 mil. Irish starved to death, that’s on you.
Thank you Greg, for making the point forcefully.
It’s easy to spot the amount of protection the Catholic church has. It’s apparent in (1) every headline using the words Christian nationalism followed by an article that fails to mention Catholics. (Btw- those who think the number of Hispanic Catholics who voted against Trump can be relied upon to vote for the Democrat in 2024, are wearing blinders.) (2) every public education defense that calls out the billionaire privatizers and omits state Catholic Conferences 3) every article that fails to identify men like John Eastman as driven by their Catholic faith (4) every article and speech that refers to a “culture war” instead of labeling the attacks as the work of the axis of conservative Catholics and evangelicals (5) the paucity of reports about the political successes attributable to wealthy Catholics driven by their faith to take away others’ rights and to thwart democracy and (6) the refusal to report about the links between the Koch network and the Catholic political network (and, that includes, Georgetown Catholic University and the Catholic University of America, both located in D.C.)
Jackie
Pope Francis expressed the same concerns I have about the politicized right wing in his church. And, he’s received substantial blowback.Protestant leaders have also expressed the concerns I have about the right wing politics evangelicals tout as God’s will.
Ahem, getting back to the subject at hand… So how about that FL bill, folks? The only smidgeon of half-assed good news I could find is that Reps withdrew the amendment requiring schools to out perceived gay/ trans students to their parents within 6 wks.
This measure strikes me as a typical rwRepublican pile-on, under the general category of give ‘m an inch they’ll take a mile. One state comes up with a veiled anti-CRT executive order, next thing you know there are 14, no 17, no 24 states drafting and passing legislation along those lines (ALEC, I presume). Lawsuits filed, red meat scraps digested, fringe culture warriors get sleepy as we move into the grinds-exceedingly-slow phase– Uh-oh, send in the clowns! FL, resentful being one-upped by TX et al cook up a hair-raising sequel, hoping the brushfire spreads under their Fearless Leader’s brand. Rinse and repeat until election day.
Hoping Reich is right (linked in the Hubbell article, 10 reasons Dems will hold onto house & senate): it’s faintly possible the general public will get tired of this crap.
Thank you, Ginny, for being the voice of reason.
😉
Disgusting, this bill. Evil.
It would be a mistake to think that legislation like this would be limited to primary age students and older, when pre-primary age children, influenced by gender stereotypes impressed on them at home, often bring that to school and then make fun of kids who behave differently from traditional assigned roles.
I saw that a lot in my Pre-School and Kindergarten classes and was not about to let it fly when boys were taunted by other kids (and some parents) for liking pink or enjoying play in the House-keeping area and when little girls were called “tom-boys” for liking to play in sports activities or with trucks or blocks. As an Early Childhood Education (ECE) teacher implementing an anti-bias curriculum, I frequently saw the need to address gender issues, which I did at their level, such as by telling the children that “Colors are for everyone,” and that all of our toys and activities were for everybody.
When it came up that so-and-so had two moms or two dads, which could be because they were gay or for some other reason, I said that there are all kinds of families and gave examples of my two dads and two moms who were divorced and remarried, grandparents who were raising grandchildren, etc. If these kinds of responses to children become illegal, I’d be willing to defy the law.
Correction, my last line should have been if that “became” illegal because, silly me, I forgot that I recently retired.
BTW, I said the same kinds of things to parents and I also had to confront some teachers about their imposition of gender stereo-types…